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Revision as of 19:41, 17 August 2013 editGabeMc (talk | contribs)File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers41,831 edits →Incivility and personal attacks: tighten← Previous edit Revision as of 20:12, 17 August 2013 edit undoGabeMc (talk | contribs)File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers41,831 edits →Outside view by Tariqabjotu: the endorsement from the Rogers cable troll from Wasaga beach should be strickenNext edit →
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# ] (]) 09:43, 16 August 2013 (UTC) # ] (]) 09:43, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
#Endorse, bull's eye. I see PBP and Gabe ] until they find the trouble they're looking for. And , I see PBP hilariously offering this very pestering as "trying and failing to resolve disputes", when it's in reality calculated to inflame disputes. Do take a look at on the talk page, too. ] &#124; ] 23:44, 16 August 2013 (UTC). #Endorse, bull's eye. I see PBP and Gabe ] until they find the trouble they're looking for. And , I see PBP hilariously offering this very pestering as "trying and failing to resolve disputes", when it's in reality calculated to inflame disputes. Do take a look at on the talk page, too. ] &#124; ] 23:44, 16 August 2013 (UTC).
# ] (]) Gabe has caused too many accounts and IPs to quit editing or indeffed in the past over content disputes. This disruption is just more of the same. This behavior has to stop being supported by admins. Joe has not exhibited perfect behavior either and needs to be toned down. Most of the examples on this page are subject to interpretation and grossly exaggerated to beat another "combatant" ] sees to be Gabe's admission that this RfC is just his usual tactics to squash another content disputant. ] (]) 13:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC) # ] (]) Gabe has caused too many accounts and IPs to quit editing or indeffed in the past over content disputes. This disruption is just more of the same. This behavior has to stop being supported by admins. Joe has not exhibited perfect behavior either and needs to be toned down. Most of the examples on this page are subject to interpretation and grossly exaggerated to beat another "combatant" ] sees to be Gabe's admission that this RfC is just his usual tactics to squash another content disputant. ] (]) 13:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC) '''FTR''', this IP is the '''Rogers Cable troll''' from last year's Beatles mediation who is on record calling people "fa**", "je**" and "nig****". She was also blocked for a year for '''harassment'''. For more detail, please see here: ]. ] <sup>(]&#124;])</sup> 20:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
#'''Endorse''' Bishonen linked to it above, but is eye-opening. ] <small>]-]</small> 17:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC) #'''Endorse''' Bishonen linked to it above, but is eye-opening. ] <small>]-]</small> 17:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


Revision as of 20:12, 17 August 2013

Anyone is welcome to endorse any view, but do not change other people's views. Under normal circumstances, a user should not write more than one view.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who are concerned by this user's conduct and have previously attempted and failed to resolve the dispute. Only users who certify this request should edit the "Statement of the dispute" section. Other users may present their views in the other sections below.

Cause of concern

There appears to be a pattern of long-term incivility, personal attacks, and edit-warring by User:Joefromrandb. Multiple editors have asked him to tone it done, and they have been met with recalcitrance, and sometimes even with personal attacks or accusations of trolling or being a kid. Joe's behavior suggests competence issues. pbp 20:17, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Past infractions

Edit warring

Incivility and personal attacks

Accusations of trolling (often misplaced)

Possible legal threat

Applicable policies and guidelines

Desired outcome

This summary of the dispute is written by the users who have initiated the request for comment. It should spell out exactly what the changes they'd like to see in the user, or what questions of behavior should be the focus. Other users may present their views of the dispute in the other sections below.

We would like Joefromrandb to:

  1. Acknowledge that users have concerns about his conduct, and not attack them for having them
  2. Curtail his use of profanity and personal attacks
  3. Refrain from edit-warring, possibly by agreeing to voluntary restrictions such as 1RR or 2RR

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve disputes

By User:Purplebackpack89

By User:GabeMc

By others

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute.
  1. pbp 20:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  2. GabeMc 23:00, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Other users who endorse this summary
  1. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:31, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  2. MezzoMezzo (talk) 20:18, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  3. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 18:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Questions to certifiers

Response

Additional views

Outside view by SudoGhost

If this RfC/U had come from anyone except Purplebackpack89 or GabeMc it might have had more merit to it, but this entire RfC/U is a case of WP:KETTLE. See the talk page for clarification on this, since editors are misreading what I've written. I took a look at this report starting with the diffs for edit-warring. Both pbp and GabeMc have filed multiple reports at WP:AN3 in the past few days, here, here, and here. Not only are GabeMc and pbp guilty of the same kind of edit-warring they're accusing Joefromrandb of, but the administrators commenting on those reports disagreed with pbp and GabeMc's assessment to the point that pbp has been advised by multiple administrators at WP:ANI and WP:AN3 to find something else to do that doesn't involve filing frivolous reports against Joefromrandb, and yet they've included those diffs here as "evidence", but omitted the actual AN3 reports as those would have discredited their accusations somewhat.

In the next section the two editors accuse Joefromrandb of calling other editors trolls, yet GabeMc has called Joefromrandb the exact same thing multiple times just within the past few days alone. The diff in which pbp claims he "asks Joe" to stop with personal attacks is rather misleasding; it wasn't a request, it was not one, but two simultaneous templates, Template:uw-wrongsummary and Template:uw-npa4, followed by a "don't you dare" comment, all within the same edit. I can't imagine many editors would respond to that in a positive way, especially when it's followed by the same exact template prefaced with "here's another user warning for your trouble". That isn't someone "asking Joe to stop", but it does look like an attempt to escalate a situation specifically to use any response to pad an RfC/U.

The three points listed here are not unreasonable, but the problem is that those are things that apply to GabeMc and pbp as well. - SudoGhost 02:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. SudoGhost 02:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  2. -- tariqabjotu 04:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  3. Cardamon (talk) 09:43, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Outside view by Tariqabjotu

I have no doubt that Joefromrandb doesn't qualify as a model editor (case in point, this discussion). However, I share SudoGhost's concerns that this RfC is largely discredited by the actions of the two editors who initiated it. Sudo didn't mention the latest AN3 report against Joe, which I rejected on similar grounds that previous AN3 reports were rejected -- the filer (in this case, Gabe) does not come with clean hands. (I was then rebuffed, effectively told that because Joe is wrong, his edit-warring was reprehensible, but not Gabe's.)

Much of the evidence comes across as cardstacking, without any context and consideration for what was going on. This is not evidence of disruption, and he only reverted this material twice. Same goes for this. This and this are edit wars that include one of the filing editors. I find it odd that this is used as an example of edit-warring; in actuality, it demonstrates Gabe's propensity to find anything to pin to Joe. There's no evidence the diff Joe is removing can be attributed to him; in fact, it's almost certain it's not him since he has an unblocked account (and thus has no reason to resort to evasion) and since that IP is based in the UK, while Joe's userpage suggests quite strongly that he's in the US. Most of the evidence of incivility (while not, of course, excusable) came as a result of the two filing editors' blatant taunting. Both filing editors have been prominently collecting links to Joe's supposed transgressions (here and here) as if they're preparing for battle. They've also been trying to recruit editors for their push against Joe. Despite Purple being told to leave Joe alone, he and Gabe have somehow managed to forge a partnership over the past few days aimed at entrapping Joe. In this thread, which seems reminiscent of the cool kids gossiping about the new kid as he sits alone at the lunch table ten feet away, we see GabeMc say "I'll continue to collect diffs and I encourage you to do the same" and Purple say "What we're hoping for is, either at the RFC/U or not, he makes a big fool of himself in front of a whole bunch of people." Joe's annoyed response was to be expected, and, of course, that's what they wanted, so they can have more ammo for their next move (this RfC) against him.

The evidence of "trying and failing to resolve the dispute" is, to put it simply, laughable. Bombarding Joe's talk page with spurious warnings based on KETTLE behavior or behavior resulting from overt baiting is not "trying" to resolve the dispute. No, it's riling him up, knowing he'll respond in a mildly inappropriate manner. A surefire way, I'm sure, to resolve the dispute here is to stop engaging with Joe (as they have been told to do a number of times). Joe is not, despite the suggestion to the contrary, going out of his way to harass either of the filing editors. The proof comes in that ten of the last twelve threads at User talk:Joefromrandb are started by one of the two filing editors, rife with strident accusations of misconduct without any consideration for the filing editors' culpability. Gabe has said he apologized for calling Joe a "troll", but I doubt anyone would say "I apologized for the troll comment, but I stand by that its how I feel right now." meets basic standards of contrition.

Honestly, I fail to see here or in the various threads on my talk page, other admins' talk pages (User talk:Bishonen, User talk:Black Kite, User talk:Laser brain, User talk:Mark Arsten), at ANI, at AN3, etc. (wherever they forum-shopped), why exactly I should feel any sympathy for the two editors who opened this request. They were looking for trouble and they found it. -- tariqabjotu 07:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. See talk page for further elaboration. -- tariqabjotu 07:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  2. SudoGhost 08:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  3. Cardamon (talk) 09:43, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  4. Endorse, bull's eye. I see PBP and Gabe poking and pestering Joe until they find the trouble they're looking for. And above, I see PBP hilariously offering this very pestering as "trying and failing to resolve disputes", when it's in reality calculated to inflame disputes. Do take a look at tariqabjotu's detailed diff-by-diff deconstruction of this card-house case on the talk page, too. Bishonen | talk 23:44, 16 August 2013 (UTC).
  5. 99.251.120.60 (talk) Gabe has caused too many accounts and IPs to quit editing or indeffed in the past over content disputes. This disruption is just more of the same. This behavior has to stop being supported by admins. Joe has not exhibited perfect behavior either and needs to be toned down. Most of the examples on this page are subject to interpretation and grossly exaggerated to beat another "combatant" sees to be Gabe's admission that this RfC is just his usual tactics to squash another content disputant. 99.251.120.60 (talk) 13:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC) FTR, this IP is the Rogers Cable troll from last year's Beatles mediation who is on record calling people "fa**", "je**" and "nig****". She was also blocked for a year for harassment. For more detail, please see here: User:99.251.125.65. GabeMc 20:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  6. Endorse Bishonen linked to it above, but this evidence to the talk page from Tariq is eye-opening. Hot Stop talk-contribs 17:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Outside view by TParis

  • Joefromrandb shows a history of behavior that is disruptive and well into the personal attack realm. Users who have dealt with him have often shrugged it off allowing his own attitudes speak for themselves. I apparently first ran into Joefromrandb when I approved his rollback rights and shortly thereafter he was blocked by me for edit warring with an IP address. Joeframrandb had gotten into an arguement with the IP address over the morality of taking advantage of a voluntary suspension of a paywall on a particularly useful site. The argument turned into personal attacks between Joefromrandb and the IP for which Sven Manguard removed the whole section. When the IP tried to readd only the portion about the paywall, Joefromrandb edit warred citing the vandalism clause in WP:EW as an exemption. As the IP wasn't trying to vandalism anything, was making a good faith attempt to alert others of an opportunity, and was not restoring the personal attacks, Joe was asked to stop and then blocked. What followed from Joe was a series of insults calling others children and little boys (the diffs are already presented by the two certifiers). Joe's habit of stretching rules beyond reasonable levels and then attacking administrators who don't buy into his misunderstanding of policy is a great example of WP:IDHT behavior.
  • In opposition to SudoGhost's comment, WP:KETTLE does not invalidate that an issue exists. That's really a distraction to the actual point. PBP and GabeMC may have their own problems, but those do not excuse or justify Joefromrandb's own behaviors which are far more widespread, as has been demonstrated, than with these two other users. If Joefromrandb wishes to compile an RFC/U on the certifiers, or show some kind of evidence that he was baited (and I know for a fact that the particular case where I blocked him involved no baiting, so he can't explain away everything) then the discussion should go on.

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. --v/r - TP 19:28, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  2. . Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 19:32, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  3. I personally don't feel SudoGhost was saying the KETTLE behavior invalidates the fact that an issue exists, so I don't feel endorsing this conflicts with my endorsement of SudoGhost's summary. -- tariqabjotu 19:37, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  4. MezzoMezzo (talk) 20:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  5. Actually they are saying that. They said the filing would have more merit if it came from others and not these two. So, while not explicit, it is implicit.--Mark 20:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  6. I endorse the first paragraph, but Mark Miller is mistaken; I'm not saying that WP:KETTLE invalidates any issue in any way. - SudoGhost
  7. The issue here is Joefromrandbs behavior which is appalling. If others have issues with GabeMc and Purblbackøs behaviors then that is a separate question, which can be treated here but which does in no way exonerate Joefromrandb.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:06, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  8. Joefromrandb isn't an innocent victim here. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 18:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Reminder to use the talk page for discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.