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Football: Australia C‑class High‑importance

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Australia: Soccer C‑class High‑importance

Soccer in Australia is within the scope of WikiProject Australia, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of Australia and Australia-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.AustraliaWikipedia:WikiProject AustraliaTemplate:WikiProject AustraliaAustralia C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Australian soccer task force (assessed as High-importance). Need help improving this article? Ask a Librarian at the National Library of Australia. The Wikimedia Australia chapter can be contacted via email to helpwikimedia.org.au for non-editorial assistance.

Beach Footy

What's up with Australia's beach footy team? Does it still exist? --202.47.49.16 05:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

John Walter Fletcher & his association

What is listed here as the "South British Football Soccer Association" I originally had as the "Southern British Football Association", but I can't remember what my source was. RSSSF show the former, but I find it hard to believe that they were using the term "Soccer" in Australia in 1882. The word is generally credited to Charles Wreford Brown and he would have been 16 years old in 1882. Can someome check this out please? Mintguy (T) 09:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To add further confusion to this issue. this page about John Waiter Fletcher talks of him founding the "English Football Association" (NSW) in 1882. It also talks about the Southern British FA's Association Cup.Mintguy (T) 10:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think you're right. Mosely says of Fletcher "In 1885 and 1886 he had entered his College in the Southern British FA’s Association Cup..." It seems logical that the NSW body was originally called the "English FA", and the name was soon changed to avoid confusion, both with the FA and with the main kind of "football" in NSW at the time, being rugby. These days "football" in the greater Sydney area means RL, although Sydney University FC, formed in 1863, still plays rugby union.Grant65 (Talk) 14:11, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)

Popularity

'Football (soccer)' is one of Australia's most popular sports but is less popular than rival football codes Australian rules football and rugby league.

Less popular? On TV maybe, but not in participation. --Executive.koala 13:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Soccer's less popular in participation than golf, but no one calls golf one of the most popular sports. Also soccer is FAR behind Aussie rules and Rugby League in attendances.

I've heard a lot of estimated participation figures, many blown out of proportion, but the latest actual figures suggest otherwise. i know they have grown, if noone can provide solid referenced facts on the current participation then the layman cannot assume anything. --Spewmaster 22:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"Football"

This page still needs a lot of work. I've just tried to give it some structure. Feel free to chip away at it. --Executive.koala 07:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Well thanks....very generous for a newcomer to the page! I don't see how you can justify remowving the statement about the name. Only soccer supporters and a few media sources have adopted the name "football". Grant65 | Talk 22:54, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This says it better than I could:

Football Is Soccer...and Rugby League, Australian Rules, American Football, Rugby Union.

Sean Fagan of RL1908.com

At the risk of doing exactly what John O'Neill wants us all to do - talk about soccer to help with his publicity drive for the rebranded sport - the attempt to claim soccer as the only sport that can use the description 'football' cannot be allowed to pass.

Across the globe the dominant winter code has come to be known by the locals in each city or country as 'football'. In Sydney and Brisbane it is Rugby League, in Melbourne it is Australian Rules, in Auckland it is Rugby Union, in New York it is American Football.

Practically everywhere else, it is Soccer that is the preferred code. However, this doesn't mean that soccer can claim the sole use of the word football.

The words 'soccer' and 'rugger' were in common use in England a hundred years ago. The words emanate from where the rules of their version of football originated. In soccer's case, it was the formation of the Football Association. Rugger is a variation of Rugby School football rules, and later the Rugby Football Union.

The formation of the F.A. and the R.F.U. were each brought about by like-minded football clubs wanting to codify their playing rules. English and Australian newspaper sports pages in the late 1800s and early 1900s all listed 'Football' as the column heading, then under it they listed the various forms.

There is no argument against Soccer Australia rebranding itself as "The Football Federation of Australia" if it desires. In real terms, they have chosen a non-descript name comparable to the Australian Football League - their names tell us nothing about the form of football they are playing. Twenty years ago Rugby League in Sydney was under the NSW Rugby Football League. Similarly, the NSWRU was the NSWRFU.

The real problem is with the Football Federation of Australia's pronouncement that they alone are entitled to the use of the word 'football'. Football played to the rules originated by the F.A. has come to be the dominant football code across the world, but that does not mean it has sole right to the name football.

If 80% of the world drove Ford cars, would that mean Holden or Toyota couldn't use the word 'car' in its advertising?

Some will suggest that soccer is the only true form of football as it does not allow handling of the ball. Of course, any passing observation of a soccer match reveals there are ample times that the ball is handled. In the 1860s handling of the ball was allowed under the F.A. rules, before eventually being cut back to only the goal keeper and restarting play from the sidelines. All football codes vary the balance between kicking and handling - from soccer at one end of the spectrum, to American Football at the other.

The word 'football' is not the sole property of soccer.

Of course, the nonsense of the Football Federation of Australia's argument is apparent in their national team's name. Hey John (O'Neill) and Frank (Lowy) - when you get around to dumping the name 'Socceroos' - which you now must do if 'soccer' is such a bad word - make sure you dump the 'roos part as well. The Australian Rugby League team have been the Kangaroos since 1908 - therefore soccer has no right to use the word/emblem 'kangaroo'.

All a bit ridiculous, isn't it?

I'm off to kick around a footy for a while - and it ain't a soccer ball!

RL1908 Editorial Comment © Sean Fagan / RL190

Grant65 | Talk 23:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Complete bollocks. --Executive.koala 10:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Football is football not soccer. Portillo (talk) 03:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Soccer is a word used only in the colonies. Like aluminum. US football is football only in the US. Elsewhere it's called Power Tossers.

protected

Oh, for Pete's sake. I've protected the article until you lot can agree on something. For mine: Grant, stop POV-pushing. Koala, stop getting huffy and precious. Cheers, fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 12:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

How the hell is it POV to point out a fact about the name, especially when one considers the many non-Australians who must wander into this article, unaware of how the word football is used in Australian English? Grant65 | Talk 14:20, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It would seem to me, from reviewing this articles' history, that Exec.Koala is being unreasonable. Grant was this compromise acceptable to you? It met with Cursive's acceptance.--cj | talk 08:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's acceptable, but I think it's better to spell out what the "other codes" are. Grant65 | Talk 10:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

There should also be mention that many fans use the term football, that clubs use the term football and the media uses the term football.Tancred 10:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

There should also be mention that many fans also still refer to it as soccer too.

Very, very few mainstream media sources refer to soccer as football. I could almost name them on one hand. Grant65 | Talk 13:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* Lets see, SMH, Foxtel, SBS, SBC, Sports tonight, Even the Daily Telegraph. On radio even 2KY has a "talking football" show (One hour ever afternoon). In Sydney it's well over 50%.Tancred 21:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I knew you would say that. Most of those are Sydney-area-only outlets and Sydney is not typical in this respect. Even SBS news presenters say soccer, showing a bit more common sense than the sports dept IMO.

Try a Google search of Australian news stories for "football -federation -"football australia" -association location:australia". Only one of the first six stories is about soccer. One is about rugby league and four are about Aussie rules. Grant65 | Talk 23:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I found it interesting that in the Sydney weekend papers, advertisers were now calling the game football. Yes some were international companies such as Emirates and Hyundai, but the fullpage ads about buing a new TV for the "Football world cup" were placed by Bing Lee. I did not expect this change to happen so quickly, but it is happening. I would be perfectly happy to see Grant65's comments in this article, if the Aussie Rules article has a mention (and a link) back to Football Australia.Tancred 04:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• It's about Football in Australia. That is all. Does the AFL article talk about how they've foolishly tried to hijack the name of another sport? What Grant65 has added is irrelevant to this article and is just pushing an agenda.

Out of interest, all of these sites use the heading, Foobtall. Not all sites that use the Sportal web feed call it football though. Eg, The Courier Mail still does not. But they will. :)

• Nine Msn
• Fox Sports
• SBS - The World Game
• ABC Sport
• Sydney Morning Herald
• Sportal Australia
• The Daily Telegraph
• The Australian
• The Sunday Times
• The Mercury
• NT News
• SportsAustralia.com

Channel Seven calls it Football(soccer), but yahoo still says soccer- for now. --Executive.koala 01:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hijack? What arrogance. Australian English is not British English. Australian rules has been called "football" since 1858, five years before soccer existed anywhere. Rugby football has been called "football" in Australia for at least as long (e.g. Sydney University Football Club, founded in 1863, plays rugby union.) I find it extremely doubtful that the majority of the population will change the way they use the language. The fact that we are arguing about it shows that its an issue that should mentioned, rather than censored, as some people seem to wish.

As for Tancred's suggestion, I would support mention of the issue in both Australian rules football and rugby league, although I have no control over what other editors of those pages think about think about that idea. Grant65 | Talk 10:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Everyone will call it Football much sooner than later. Your statements are just wishful thinking. Everyone who watches The World Cup (and millions here will), will only hear it referred to as Football. The mainstream media outlets are calling it football in great numbers and advertisers are calling it football. If there was any confusion, then companies paying large sums of money for print media and television ad campaigns would use the term soccer, but they don’t.

Going from Victorian Rules to Australia Rules and then somehow deciding the name Australian football to be clever was arrogance in the extreme. I expect a further name change to your sport in the next few years. Call it Mugby or something similarly appropriate.

Adding contemptuous statements to the Football in Australia introduction is petty, pointless and embarrassing. If you’re so worried about what international visitors think, then clarify what Australian football really means in the Australian Rules article. --Executive.koala 06:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The issue isn't whether or not the sport's name is "football" or "soccer", or whether any other sport has a greater claim to the word "football". We've been through that, and ended with the undeniable truth that we cannot trust ourselves to discuss that particular issue in a mature and appropriate manner, and nothing much more.

The problem isn't that it's "football", not "soccer"; that's as settled as it's going to get, on "football (soccer)". To immediately follow this up, in the intro, with a statement that anyone who calls the sport "football" is incorrect since of course that's what AFL and Rugby League are is ... well ... extraordinarily silly. It's not appropriate for this article (nor for AFL or Rugby League), it's a breathtaking attempt to re-ignite an argument that we will not have again anytime soon, it's unsourced, and it's flat-out biased against the "football ra ra ra" point of view. All of which, of course, does not excuse Executive Koala's preciousness. It takes two to edit war, after all.

That's my view. It matters just as much, or as little, as the views of anyone else on this page. In any case, the article's protected, and will remain protected as long as people continue to edit war over it. I won't be the one unprotecting it, because I don't think that would be appropriate, but I'll ask someone else to unprotect it if you blokes indicate you can be a bit more mature about this than just reverting one another. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the main point is that many of those reading this article will not be Australian. They will not understand the need for references to "football (soccer)". The answer is not to sweep it under the carpet, but to explain it. I'm sorry that our furry-eared friend from the managerial class feels upset by this, but here at Misplaced Pages we are about providing facts and I don't like large chunks of this article, on which I have spent quite a bit of time, being deleted by blow-ins.

Secondly, remember that it is Misplaced Pages policy to use the common name in the country concerned. Therefore it is a pertinent fact that soccer is what the game is called by most ordinary, suburban and country Australians, who use the word football to mean games other than soccer. Personally I don't believe any amount of corporate sponsorship will change how the word has been used by rugby league and Aussie rules fans in Penrith, Mt Isa, Tuggeranong, Whyalla, Dandenong and Kalgoorlie for more than 100 years. I think it should be spelled out in the article for all the other naive, ignorant and recalcitrant Sydney-centrics and/or soccer sad cases. By which I do not mean soccer fans in general, because I'm one of them :-) Grant65 | Talk 11:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, we will not be going through the football vs soccer argument again. Remember? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 11:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I hope not; I just think that the debate, which is also occurring in the broader Australian community, is relevant to the subject of soccer in Australia. Grant65 | Talk 12:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think first and foremost these bloody turf wars need to cease.--cj | talk 17:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The current introduction is more than adequate. --Executive.koala 01:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

It makes no mention of a major issue facing Australian soccer, i.e. the atempt to claim the name "football" . Grant65 | Talk 03:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What rot! The reasons why FFA are promoting the sport as "football" alone have been covered already in those tedious arguments of months past; you make it sound like TPTB are engaging in an evil campaign to steal a word that rightfully belongs to AFL fans, and those of us who call the sport "football" are, if not co-conspirators, then at least willing dupes.

How Australians name our football codes is an important issue, which should be dealt with on the article dealing with football codes. I, for example, have at one time or another referred to league, footy, football, and rugby as "football", if it seemed appropriate at the time — I'm hardly the only one, and this confusing issue should, certainly, be raised in the appropriate Misplaced Pages article. On Misplaced Pages itself, however, the issue is not at all confusing — football is "football (soccer)" in the intro, "football" thereafter, and we'll not have complaints of FFA arrogance in such articles when it's neither correct nor editorially appropriate. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 09:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Obviously any suggestion of "FFA arrogance" whatsoever is subjective and utterly inappropriate. However, there clearly is a need to note what the sport is called in Australia in the actual article about the sport itself in Australia. There is no need to go into any great discussion, but it is appropriate to mention that soccer remains the preponderant term. --cj | talk 07:51, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Fuddle and Tancred just don't get the point, or don't want to. The Sydney-based FFA and several Sydney-based sports hacks/editors can call it "football"; we can call it "football (soccer)" in article names, but most of the Australians who watch the game on TV follow a team which they call the Socceroos, playing a game which most Australians call "soccer". The terminology used by the great unwashed in the suburbs may be distasteful to the soccer insiders and elites, but it is worth mentioning, as is the fact that the people within the game nevertheless call it "football". These may not be life-threatening issues but they are important issues within Australian sporting circles. Grant65 | Talk 15:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Cyberjunkie has convinced me we should mention the issue of the sport's name. Fine. But we shouldn't do it the way you want to — oh, no, the terrible FFA are coming to steal my favourite sport's true name! — because that's just silly beyond words. I don't think that particular bit should be written by you, or me, or Executive.koala, or Tancred, or Sliat 1981 ... at least not until we see a bit more maturity on the issue surface. Maybe Cyberjunkie or Cursive will honour us with a sentence or two of their golden prose? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 02:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

WTF. It's all in your head, tiger. It has nothing to do wth me. Cheers. Grant65 | Talk 17:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Don't involve me in this. I never posted on this site (until now) and don't wannto. I'll call what sport whatever I like. I think this whole topic is shite.sliat_1981

I'll watch. If I have any objections, I'll voice them here. If I'm going to make tedious contributions, it’s going to be in the form of adding footy club info boxes (as tedious as it gets) . I’m tired of saying the same thing over and over on the discussion pages. Whatever the decision, I’d like to see this article remain contempt free. :-) --Executive.koala 10:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Something along the lines of this should suffice. --cj | talk 04:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Is it safe to assume there are no objections to cj's suggestion from Fuddle and Koala? Grant65 | Talk 11:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Selective deletion

I am about to delete from the article history those revisions whose content and/or edit summaries libel Xtra, per Misplaced Pages's libel policy. Selective deletion requires full deletion followed by selective restoration. Therefore this article will be deleted for a very brief period of time. Snottygobble 04:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Socceroos

I disagree that FFA no longer refers to the natioinal team as the socceroos. Socceroos is still used on their official supporter shirts. , , . This the the FFA gear, so they have decided to put it on their products. Nobody made them, so they obviously do want to keep the name socceroos.

The latest releases no longer use Socceroos, but Australia. I picked up the hat and shirt yesterday at Sydney AirPort.Tancred 07:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Still waiting...

My shirt and beanie that I got at the MCG at the Aus v Greece match both say "Socceroos" -- Chuq 02:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about Tancred, he has a problem with the word soccer for some strange reason. Oh, and by the way...go the Socceroos....Cahill youfarking bewdy!!! Grant65 | Talk 09:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That's ok, I also have a problem with the word soccer. I am glad to cheer on the Socceroos when they play football :) -- Chuq 13:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This part has nothing do do with the word soccer. It's wheither they still call them the socceroos (for some reason, some people treating our beloved nickname for over 30 years like a swearword now). I personally call it soccer, but if you call it football it's up to you. I just think trying to get rid of a nickname that has stood for so long simply because it has 'soccer' in it, is going overboard. I mean really, 'footballroos' sounds really gay. Theres a differnce between not wanting to call a sport one thing and going completely bananas and trying to change everything.

Firstly your "gay" reference is rather offensive and has no place on wikipedia. The people who dislike the nickname (Including Johnny Warren) don't see the need for a nickname. I hate that the old Soccer Australia had us listed as Japan v The Soccerroos, Korea v , The Soccerroos etc. At the world cup we are known as Australia, the name of our country and the name the team should be known as.Tancred 07:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind the name "Socceroos", compared to the Azzuri, The Celestes, The Elephants (Italy, Uruguay and I think it was Ghana, for those playing at home It was Cote d'Ivoire -- Chuq 13:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC) ). I don't like it being used in the way the teams were announced at the Aus v Greece game "Welcome to the pitch, the Qantas Socceroos, and Greece". Sponsor+nickname for one, country name for the other? I'm sure Greece has a Sponsor and nickname, what happened to them? Why not just "Australia and Greece"? -- Chuq 09:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Tancred, you're only saying this from your POV. I have waited for ages for the quote saying that they will no longer refer to them as socceroos. When we get is they expect it to fade away. Well with the gear they're releasing they're not helping their own cause are they? Yet like I said, they still realease supporter gear with Socceroos all over it. 90% of the supporters we see have the famous (Socceroo) scarf. Wheither Johhny Warren or you did/do not like the name socceroos is your right. But to say we or FFA do not refer to them as that is obviously false when their own official gear (that THEY have the rights to sell and decide what is written on them) clearly states socceroos as our nickname. As for the 'gay' reference I don't mean to offend. I have no problems with homosexuals if that offends you. But I will say that footballroos does sound really stupid. And if that ever becomes our bickname, we'll be a laughing stock.

I'm not calling you names, but you do sound hypocritical when you tell people off for saying soccer instead of football, but you call Aussie Rules, AFL. AFL has not, nor has it ever been a name of the game of Australian rules football. Do you say to your friends, "Let's go to my place and play FFA?"

History

I am curious, can this statement: "The game was probably first played in Australia by English immigrants during the 1860s..." be backed up in any way, or is it simply wishful thinking. I ask this because, referring specifically to Melbourne, we have absolutely countless newspaper reports and other documented evidence of Australian Football being played between 1858 and 1870 - why would we not have any documented evidence of other forms of football being played? ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's somewhat speculative for an encyclopedia. I have read a bit about the history of soccer game in Australia and I haven't seen reference to any games being played before 1880, but I'd be almost certain that some occurred in the 1860s, given the volume of immigration from the UK. Grant65 | Talk 12:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The first organised club game was 1880 IIRC, but yeh there would have to have been matches played before then for a club to be proposed. A source would be nice of course though. – AlbinoMonkey 12:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it is a valid question, because speaking of Melbourne, there are absolutely stacks of newspaper reports in the local papers about aussie rules games during that period - there was so little to write about back then, they would even report on school boy games, or if an impromptu game was happening alongside some pub somewhere. So that being the case, how is it possible that there is not a single newspaper report about a game of Association Football anywhere prior to 1880? There was no sense of inter codes rivalry back then, so chauvinism would not be the reason. I agree that there would have been games played, but equally, surely there is a report somewhere? Also, the term Association Football would have been known by 1870. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I would imagine that while it was certainly played, it was probably not played nearly widely enough nor had it penetrated the local awareness enough to warrant much, if any, mention. Apart from Aussie Rules, how widespread was reporting of other sports during the time by comparison? Gorast 06:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Lets see. Aussie rules started in 1858, soccer in 1860 and rugby league sometime 1900-1908. What the hell did they play before then? Surley little kids didn't just only play cricket when they were in the streets. I just can't believe we only had one sport for about 90 years.

Probably were too busy working. Hack 05:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

There were many different kinds of football games in Europe before there was soccer. See e.g. Category:Traditional football. Grant65 | Talk 09:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Crad Evans

Hi. There was a Crad Evans who played for Torquay United, but not much is known about him after that time. I've noticed that there is a Crad Evans Trophy in Australia. Can anyone shed some light on whether it is the same Crad Evans in both cases, and if so whether more information can be added to the Crad Evans stub? Thanks, WikiGull 13:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

Is this infobox actually used anywhere else? (I looked at Football in France and Football in Italy and couldn't find it). I don't think there is much point, unless a generic "Football in (country)" or "(sport) in (country)" template is going to be created and used on all relevant articles. -- Chuq 05:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: I found, from the editors contributions list, it is used in articles on other football codes in Australia. IMO it should be "templatised" if it is to continue being used. -- Chuq 05:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel that this information is really important to summarise. How would I go about creating a standardised "(sport) in (country)" template ? and where would I request such a template to be created ? --Spewmaster 23:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As usual, you have an idea for comparison and someone goes and creates it specifically to promote their agenda ... Template:Rugby Overview is an example of this. Someone replaced my infobox with a standardised one on the same day, but I can't use it on this article or any other for that matter. --Spewmaster 01:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Gees that didn't take long! Perhaps User:Grcampbell was reading the Rugby union in Australia page or something similar and had a similar idea to what I had (except I didn't get off my arse fast enough :) ). Anyway, somewhere like Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Sports or its talk might be the best place to bring it up. They may even have an existing info box .. I haven't checked myself yet. -- Chuq 01:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

History section is bollocks

Full of speculation, POV and unreferects factoids. Someone should clean this mess up. --Spewmaster 06:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Misplaced Pages is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Misplaced Pages community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). -- Chuq 07:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding my recent change:

• Most of the paragraph can be replaced with the words "lower-order" (or "non-blockbuster", or some other better wording that implies the same). I'm not sure why the large number of AFL statistics were added - did you think the article was trying to claim that A-League consistently outranks AFL? Only one particular game was mentioned, which should imply it was a one-off. The season average stat in the prior paragraph also indicates comparitive A-League/AFL crowd averages.
• Regarding the rounding of numbers - news reports round numbers all the time, no big deal. People don't need the fact that 39,790 is not 40,000 to be explained to them.
• I expect that this Saturday's Telstra Dome game will make this paragraph redundant anyway.
• I've added an NSL crowd reference, but do not know if it includes finals or not.

-- Chuq 00:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, a great edit. I didn't think the article was trying to claim anything, but it was POV and unreferenced. Misplaced Pages is not the media, it is an encyclopedia, so it is a big deal and someone who didn't know what the actual crowd was would not have known the difference. --Spewmaster 22:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Use of A-League Logo

Use of this logo on this page appears to contradict "fair use". It should only be displayed on the A-League page. --Spewmaster 02:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

World Cup TV ratings

Chuq's last edit summary says about this passage: "IMO it should be deleted. it is not notable that a 5am program did not out-rate a 2pm or 8pm program". I disagree; it wasn't a normal 5am program. For one thing it was a 7am program here in Perth and many workplaces -- mine included -- actually had screenings/parties/breakfasts, presumably to reduce the incidence of sickies. Presumably lots of people in the eastern states made an effort to watch it as well. Grant65 | Talk 04:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Football not soccer

Why is "association football in australia" insisting on using football (soccer). It is not soccer it is football. Now every a-league player is going to have football (soccer) in it. Quite ridiculous if you ask me. Portillo (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This has already been debated. I suppose by your logic the Melbourne football team has to rename itself the Melbourne Australian rules footbal team. And the AFL has to rename itself the 'Australian Australian rules football league? Sorry but most people in Australia refer to it as soccer, not football. People are lucky it is allowed the football (soccer) term, not just soccer.

Umm no, noone is lucky. Australia has just as much freedom to call soccer football, as the rest of the world does that call it football or futbol. Portillo (talk) 07:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It's now three years down the track from the earlier debate on the name. In that time, nothing has changed in Australian usage. In more than half of the country, both by population and area (everywhere but NSW and Queensland), "football" means Australian Football. Valid sources for this claim are trivially easy to find in the form of state based newspapers (Melbourne Age being a reputable one) and almost all other local media. I recently even heard the coach of the Melbourne A League team comfortably using the terms soccer and football in the way I've described. To use "National" media as a source is misleading, since much of that is based in Sydney, NSW. Even in NSW and Qld it's obvious that "football" still very frequently means Rugby League. "Soccer" IS the common name for the game in Australia. A declaration to the contrary by a Sydney based business organisation will not change the truth. Nor will having silly names for clubs like Sydney FC. That's just as dumb as having "United" in a name when there were no earlier non-united teams which came together to create that given entity. The soccer administrators are into marketing, just like any other business. The rest of us need to separate facts from marketing claims HiLo48 (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It's interesting comparing the website approaches of the "better" newspapers in Melbourne and Sydney, The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Each is from the same publisher - Fairfax. Each has a line of links to different sports at the top of their Sport Section. They look like this:

Age: * Live scores * AFL * Cricket * Soccer * Horseracing * Motorsport * Tennis * Basketball * NRL * Blogs

SMH: * Live scores * NRL * Cricket * A-League * Rugby * Tennis * Football * AFL * Golf * Motorsport

That "Football" link in the SMH is for the round ball game. "Football" isn't used at all in Melbourne. But "Soccer" is. HiLo48 (talk) 08:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Removed some vandalism

Edited out some smartass vandalism that was defiling the great sport of soccer ;) Lachy123 (talk) 07:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Australian Media Football League

Who cares about this league? Is it relevant/imporant? I think not. Maybe it could exist somewhere else but it's not an important part of Association Football in Australia. Otherwise do we have to mention every football league in Australia? particularly one that is not part of the 'proper' football league system/structure? I suggest it needs a new home not on this page!--TinTin (talk) 03:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Page moved.

There are good arguments, both anecdotal and statistical, backing up the argument that "soccer" is the most common name for the sport in Australia. It is also clearly understood and unambiguous. The arguments to keep the current name are mostly weak: we enforce consistency for global articles as a compromise, but there's no chance that we're ever going to refer to the sport as anything but "soccer" in articles related to the United States, so that consistency is already broken. "Bullying by non-fans" is not a reason at all, and "official title" is one of the weakest of our naming criteria, with consensus being that it is subordinate to the common / popular name in most cases. That leaves "the use of 'football' instead of 'soccer' is increasing", which could be a good argument were it backed up by further evidence, but the renaming of a national body / league is the only evidence that's been put forward for a trend and the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

In the end, association football (the root article) arrived at that title because on a global basis it's the least-worst compromise between two names which, if not equally common, are certainly near enough diametrically opposed in use. On a more local basis we've chosen not to enforce it in at least one major case (the US), and where there's a good deal of evidence showing that "soccer" is the most popular local term there's no reason the consistency argument couldn't be applied that way as well.

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 15:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Association football in Australia → Soccer in Australia – Additionally rename Category:Association football in Australia → Category:Soccer in Australia (or any other name this article is moved to) per speedy moves criteria C2D (a category may be immediately renamed to follow an RMed main article if the discussion explicitly includes it).

This category discussion has brought to wider exposure the disagreements about what the game is most commonly called in Australia. The articles and especially the categories are using a wild variety of names and a RM here is sought as the best place for the wider discussion. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Sydney Morning Herald: "Football". The Australian: "Football". ABC: "Football". Fox Sports: "Football". To me, "football" will always mean rugby league or rugby union. But clearly the Australian sports media -- even ignoring the SBS bigots -- has universally moved to substituting "soccer" for "football". We have to follow the reliable sources.--Mkativerata (talk) 20:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Rather than "the Australian sports media", that should read "the Sydney sports media". HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  • No, have another look. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I already looked very carefully. All four of those organisations are based in Sydney. HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
      • Well then you're asking yourself the wrong question. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • ???? I didn't ask a question. So what ARE you talking about. I've already said elsewhere today "Soccer obsessives don't debate very well". Please explain . HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:COMMON, "soccer" is the most commonly used name for the sport in Australia. The Age, Daily Telegraph, the Herald Sun, Adelaide Advertiser, Courier Mail, Sunday Times (Perth) and The West Australian all use soccer almost entirely in lieu of football, representing the only print media in several states. Although ABC uses "football" officially, in stories it often uses soccer - see , and from just one day's coverage (7 July), while Channel Nine is in the same position. Our national team is called the Socceroos. And Australians, famous for abbreviating things, only ever use "footy" to refer to Australian rules football or National Rugby League depending on which state the speaker is based in. The term "association football", so far as I can determine, is never used by anyone in Australia to describe the sport. Orderinchaos 23:44, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Just as a by-note to my own notes above, the National Centre for Culture and Recreation Statistics, an agency of the Australian Bureau of Statistics, refer to "outdoor soccer" and "indoor soccer". Orderinchaos 03:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The Age: "Soccer". Herald Sun: "Soccer". The Daily Telegraph: "Soccer". The Courier-Mail: Interesting one; the tab from the sport section says "Soccer", but when you click through the heading reads "Football". The West Australian: "Soccer". The Sunday Times: "Soccer". The Advertiser: "Soccer". The Mercury: "Soccer". The Examiner: "Football – Soccer". The Canberra Times: "Football – Soccer". Therefore I dispute the claim that the Australian "has universally moved to substituting "soccer" for "football" ". While I agree that Association football could definitely be considered the formal or official name of the sport in Australia, it is no way the common name. To quote Mattinbgn from the CfD that precipitated this RM, "The sport is actually generally called "football" by the vast majority of its fans and "soccer" by those who are fans of the other three codes – but yes the latter outnumber the former". Also, although this is anecdotal evidence, I have quite a few mates who play soccer and they all call the game soccer. I actually asked one of them the other day and he had never heard the term Association football even though he had been playing the sport for ~10 years (note: I live in country Vic). . Jenks24 (talk) 00:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Another comment I've worked as a Physical Education teacher in city and country schools in Victoria. We obviously have the kids tackle many sports. If I said Association football to them, they would have no idea what I was talking about. If I say Football, they simply know that it's Aussie Rules. There no way that anyone in that context would ever think we were talking about the round ball game. Soccer is the obvious, unambiguous name used by teachers, players, fans, the community and local clubs as the name of the round ball game. We could no doubt source this logical and blatantly obvious fact from many local papers all over the state. Now, I am willing to accept that things may be different in NSW and/or Qld. I just don't know, and don't have the arrogance to pretend that I do. But that's not Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 00:33, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Australia = national publications, such as ABC, Fox Sports and The Australian. Just about everything presented here so far have been metropolitan publications, which adopt their own city's definition of "football". The preponderance of national publications call it "football", so an article on Australian soccer (yes, I call it soccer) should be called "football". That's what I mean by asking yourself the wrong question. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
    • (I think you've put that post in the wrong place. It's just confusing the discussion. I've already said elsewhere today "Soccer obsessives don't debate very well".) ;-) HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
      • No it's in the right place thank you very much. And I can't stand the sport thank you very much; I'm a rugby league man. If I need to ram it down your throat: my point is national publications should hold significantly greater sway than metropolitan publications in examining reliable sources for the purpose this debate, because the article concerned is about the sport in Australia. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • • Rugby league eh? So, if you're off to a match tonight, will you say "I'm going to the rugby league tonight", or perhaps "I'm going to the football tonight"? I suggest that the latter is most likely for most League fans. And if you were reluctantly dragged along to a round ball game by somebody, would you call it Association football? HiLo48 (talk) 00:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
            • Wrong question again. Of course I call rugby league football. Try asking a better question. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • As already noted, the ABC are incredibly inconsistent with their use - I had no trouble finding three primary uses of "soccer" in just one day's coverage. Orderinchaos 00:49, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Interesting comment - I went and looked at WA education, and found soccer is used universally. A search on "football" in the same sphere pretty much unilaterally covered Aussie rules. Trying "association-football" produced the interesting fact that many country and school-level AFL organisations call themselves "football associations", and only Darling Range Sports College referred to "association football". The same could be run for other states' education systems quite easily, but I'm based in WA. Orderinchaos 00:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I think the "football" vs. "association football" debate is a little bit of a red herring. I think WP:FOOTBALL had the debate a while ago and resolved to call it "football" (so we now have Football in England, which used to be a redirect to Association football in England). By all means let's change this article to "Football in Australia" with a hatnote to the three other codes, but that's not the question being asked by the proposer. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
      • "Football in Australia" would require a hell of a lot more than hatnotes - it would become unwieldy as it'd need to cover all three major codes, possibly five if one throws in touch football and rugby union. Orderinchaos 01:03, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm not sure I'd agree -- it's not unusual to have such hatnotes and yet be able to succinctly express them: "See also: Rugby league in Australia, Rugby union in Australia and Australian rules football". We'd then move Football in Australia to Football codes of Australia. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:06, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • Or: For other football codes in Australia, see Rugby League in Australia, Rugby Union in Australia and Australian rules football. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
          • I'm sorry, but no. There is absolutely no way that soccer is the primary topic of the word football in Australia. To be frank, it would be lucky to scrape into number 3. Jenks24 (talk) 01:25, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
            • Entirely in agreement. Orderinchaos 03:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
            • Wrong question. What's the primary topic when talking about the football codes on a national scale? Look at the title of the article. Look at the national publications. Australian readers know this is an international encyclopaedia. If they want rugby league, they'll type rugby league. On the other hand, international readers wanting to learn about soccer in this country will not know to type soccer. We need to get out of the local pub and realise what primary topic really means in this context. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
              • • • Comment: As shown in Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 June 28, Association football in Australian at times refers to Touch football. There are association football clubs in the country that are not soccer. So while Australian readers may know that Misplaced Pages is international, it doesn't mean that Australian content should be written in the lingua franca of the UK. Misplaced Pages specifically allows for instances of non-compliance with naming patterns to deal with these issues. --LauraHale (talk) 02:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

• • • • • • • • Oh, for god's sake, will you please give up on the "Wrong question" argument. I achieves nothing! HiLo48 (talk) 01:39, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
              • As has already been shown by Orderinchaos, the ABC are very inconsistent in their usage (and I'm sure the same could easily be said for The Australian and Fox Sports). Have a read of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: are you honestly arguing that when the reader searches for "Football in Australia" it is much more likely that the reader is searching for soccer than any other code? Also, it seems clear to me that the majority of readers searching for football in Australia will be Australian. Jenks24 (talk) 01:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
                • WP:PRIMARYTOPIC doesn't allow us to make those geographic assumptions. I don't think there's any basis at all for presuming that "the majority of readers searching for football in Australia will be Australian". None at all. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
                  • I would base it on the common sense assumption that people are generally more interested in local issues (local meaning Australia in international terms). Anyway, even if that were not the case, I doubt even soccer fans would support your proposal that soccer is the primary topic of football in Australia. I think the current Football in Australia article actually sums up the situation pretty well. Anyway, I'm off to the footy (the Aussie rules variety!), so I will leave this for others to debate. Jenks24 (talk) 02:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, I've thought for some time that Football in Australia is an excellent article. I would recommend it to all editors here who haven't read it. It makes clear some of the issues for those seeking a simple, globally consistent answer here. There isn't one. Barassi line is another useful and relevant article, although not in such good condition. HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • As a random aside, if Australian editors of sport related articles in Australia would like a get together to work on Misplaced Pages, I can see if we can't set up a session at the National Sport Information Centre, getting people access to videos, pictures, books, journals and other materials to help improve these articles. I've got access there to a fair amount of sources, including ones that discuss the Barassi line. --LauraHale (talk) 02:24, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
          • Nice source. I just did the obvious thing at that site to find out what they call the sport we're discussing here. It's Football (Soccer). No sign of Association football. And that's the Australian government. HiLo48 (talk) 02:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support: Per my rationale at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 June 28. --LauraHale (talk) 02:13, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Been there, done that. We've moved from Soccer to Football (soccer) (in 2006) to Association football (in 2008). Football in Australia is an appropriate article for that whole encompassing topic and shouldn't be changed. You should all head over to Talk:Association football and read the FAQ at the top. I'll copy it here for those who don't like clicking on links. I actually disagree with the last two points though - the biggest TV show about this sport in the UK is called Soccer AM, so I doubt many outside of the SBS camp would consider it derogatory, especially in Australia - but just like the whole Australian football vs Australian rules football vs AFL debate, you have the official controlling bodies pushing a marketing line and expecting/hoping that the populace will fall into line and follow their lead. But we don't. MOST people in WA/SA/Vic/Tas call the game played by the AFL football and only the league itself AFL; in Qld and NSW the same for rugby league/NRL. For the last point, in Australia, soccer IS a form of football, so maybe I'd lean towards accepting Football (soccer) in Australia again. Might have to go back to 2008 and read why we moved away from it.

*Q: I've never heard of this sport being called "Association football".

• A: The term "association football" is the original name for the sport. However, its usage has diminished in recent years, with different cultures developing their own word(s) for the sport. Even the word "soccer" derives from the -soc- in "association".
• Q: Why not just "Football"?
• A: This is because there are several sports that are known as football in different countries. For example, in the United States, American football is primarily referred to as "football", while the same is true of Gaelic football in Ireland, Canadian football in Canada, Rugby union in New Zealand, and Rugby league or Australian rules football in Australia. The title "association football" avoids any ambiguity over which code of football is being referred to, and also removes the potential for accusations of bias towards any particular code.
• Q: Why not "Soccer" then?
• A: In the United Kingdom, the usage of the term "soccer", a term which originated in South East England, is sometimes viewed as being derogatory, or an example of American culture being forced onto the rest of the world. Therefore, although the word "soccer" would be an unambiguous title for this article, there would be discontent from a large number of people who object to their word for the sport being ignored. Others point to "soccer" being the most widely used name for the sport in English speaking nations—however the statistics for this are not readily available or are confusing (e.g. India is the largest country with English as an official language and refers to the game as "football", but consists of a multitude of other languages) and others where countries change their official name for the sport (as Australia have done by now referring to the sport as "football", renaming Soccer Australia to Football Federation Australia and changing the local associations' names to reflect this, whilst the general populace refer to the game as "soccer").
• Q: What about "Football (soccer)"?
• A: On Misplaced Pages, the placing of a word in parentheses in the title of an article is used as a method of disambiguation, with the parenthesised word usually being a set that the article's subject is a part of. Therefore, the title "Football (soccer)" implies that football is a form of soccer, which is not the case.— Talk:Association football

• • The issue here is not solved by responding to the claim - I've never heard of this sport being called "Association football" - by explaining its archaic roots, and its etymological connection with soccer. The problem is that nobody in Australia evens knows what "Association football" means (unless they have been playing here for a while). It's really ugly for Misplaced Pages to use a term that a typical reader won't comprehend. It means we're no longer an encyclopaedia for the people. HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Also, the Q&A above has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of this move request. Nobody here is debating whether the entire international collection of articles should move (which is what the Q&A is about), we're explicitly talking only about the Australian ones. So "Soccer in Australia" would belong to the "Association football by country" hierarchy, and so on. In response to The-Pope's point re AFL, the reason it is called football and not AFL is that AFL is a league consisting of teams at the national level; the game as played on pitches all over the country and in state leagues is clearly not AFL. Orderinchaos 04:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
      • The way I see it, because of the need for this to be suitable for both international and domestic readers, fans and non-fans, the current page name is the best, with a redirect from Soccer in Australia. That way, those in Australia and the US and the few other places that use soccer find the page, and discover it's "official" name. Those who go to Football in Australia discover that in Australia, that term is very ambiguous, depending on where you live and what you follow. The officialdom in the FFA and SBS etc who do know what the official sport's name is can't complain about the use of the official name. Everyone, eventually, gets what they want. Yes, the "soccer only" mob have to make do with a redirect, but the "football only" have an article to click through. Saying "nobody in Australia knows what "Association football" means" is underselling us a bit. Those of us who understand that it isn't black and white get the middle ground. I think the arguements above about which media outlet does what show that there is no consistent WP:COMMONNAME to be used. It is very dependent on your interest level and background - and the inherent biases of commercial media organisations. The FAQ is relevant as it shows the thinking behind why the rest of the world has basically agreed upon that name and some of those points are relevant here. The-Pope (talk) 05:45, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • My problem with the FAQs is that they are just wrong with respect to Australia, and actually give unwarranted ammunition to the "pro-football, not soccer" crowd. The term soccer is not at all derogatory in Australia. It's the common name. It's a bit like asking Australians about how much rooting they do at the football. It's offensive here, but I'm not going to try to tell Americans to stop rooting at their football. Nobody should be trying to tell Australians to stop calling the game soccer. I've already made my point regarding trying to justify Association football because of its archaic, original usage. It DOES matter that nobody uses that name to describe the game, especially when soccer is a perfectly good, well known, unambiguous, polite alternative. HiLo48 (talk) 07:21, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
        • I find myself in agreement with HiLo here. To call it "football" in Australia seems to be staking one side in a POV war within this country rather than adopting a neutral position in an international sense. As for "nobody knows" - I tried "association football" out on four random friends on MSN, two of whom are soccer supporters, and nobody was quite sure what I was referring to - the soccer supporters thought I was talking about the FA Cup and the AFL ones thought I was talking about rugby union!! There isn't a "middle ground" issue as the name has no cultural connotations in Australia, and is used by official reports of the Australian Bureau of Statistics and the preponderance of media outlets. Orderinchaos 08:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support Per WP:COMMON -- MichiganCharms (talk) 04:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support Definitely the common name in at least several states of Australia. Association Football is a term found on Misplaced Pages and hardly in use in Australia. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Further Comment Australia has four professional sports that are called football by some of their fans. Three of these are known on Misplaced Pages by common names that are unambiguous and instantly recognisable. One would think soccer fans would want the same thing. HiLo48 (talk) 18:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose We went through this discussion several years ago. Soccer is (a) slang (b) non consistent with the rest of the world/rest of Misplaced Pages (c) to some people, offensive - there is quite a gap in professionalism and media treatment between "pre-2005 Soccer Australia" and "post-2005 Football Federation Australia". -- Chuq (talk) 23:46, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Given the efforts of some of us here to explain and justify our views, that's a very silly (and, in fact, insulting) post. It's saying things that many others have made clear are not the case. (Or are you just going to ignore what others say and spout unthinking dogma?) a) If it was slang it wouldn't be used in the official, registered and legally incorporated, chosen names of many clubs across the country, nor in Physical Education documentation at state government and national level, b) You're right, Australia's usage IS non-consistent with the rest of the world - why should Misplaced Pages pretend otherwise? c) See a)... And there's a whole lot more above. Why, oh why do editors make posts that ignore all that has been posted beforehand in a thread? It's both stupid and offensive. HiLo48 (talk) 00:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
    • "Given the efforts of some of us here ..." Given that I discussed this ad nauseum several years ago - see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Football in Australia), the associated talk page, and the numerous previous discussions linked from the talk page, I believe I've probably put in more effort to try to resolve this than anyone else on the page. Hopefully you can understand that I don't want to do that all over again, just because someone has decided that a system that has been working for years must be changed. -- Chuq (talk) 03:50, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
      • "That's the way we've been doing it for years" is one of the worst reasons to continue to do something. I understand some of your frustration, but the arguments you presented were poor this time round, and I responded. I shouldn't have had to, because the points I made had already been made in this discussion. You will never win a debate by declaring that it was all decided years ago. Try responding to the points I made. (Oh, and I hope you realise that Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Football in Australia) tells us to use Football (soccer), NOT Association football.) HiLo48 (talk) 04:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
        • I certainly agree that "That's the way we've been doing it for years" is not a good reason by itself. I'm just pointing out that there is considerable previous discussion on the same topic which is still relevant, and to a minor degree pointing out that I had indeed given this discussion considerable effort. (And yes, "Football (soccer)" was my, and the Australian communities' preference at the time, but that has since been overridden by the global Misplaced Pages community's preference of "Association football"). -- Chuq (talk) 23:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
          • So where is that "global Misplaced Pages community" this time round? I'm yet to be convinced that Association football makes any sense at all for name of the game. It's not the common name anywhere. HiLo48 (talk) 00:06, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support, per WP:COMMON. Nobody calls it "association football" in Australia. A minority of people call it "football", but this is ambiguous with the other three football codes in Australia. "Soccer" is a term that everyone in Australia understands and it is not ambiguous. Lankiveil 01:56, 10 July 2011 (UTC).
• Oppose The article, and related material, seems to indicate a movement towards football as a name, not soccer. (ie renaming of Soccer Australia to Football Federation Australia, NLS being renamed A-league) Not to mention most references used in the article (having only given a cursory look) seems to indicate they use football.--Labattblueboy (talk) 02:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
  • So should Misplaced Pages reflect the commercial manipulations of sports businesses, or the far more common language usage for this sport? Serious question. Round my way, the actions of those two Sydney based businesses have made zero difference to common usage. I acknowledge that we have a divide. How do we solve it without ignoring common usage? HiLo48 (talk) 02:58, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I have to disagree with regards it being of no consequences. However, I do agree that it's not the trump. Common language usage needs to be demonstrated using reliable sources and the sources in the article currently use football more than socer. If the sources employed soccer more than football I'd be happy to support (even if the association employed football).--Labattblueboy (talk) 07:12, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

A return to Football (soccer), which was the previous consensus usage, seems quite logical. Hack (talk) 05:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support per evidence of lack of use of the term "association football", and the use of "soccer" over "football" from editors above. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 05:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose A bullying attempt by non-association football fans to dictate what the name of a sport should be. While non-association football fans may be in a majority, that does not give them the right to dictate to the minority of Australians who follow association football what the name of the sport should be. The sport is simply called "football" by all branches of the game here in Australia and the term "football" is overwhelmingly preferred over "soccer" by fans of the game. The term "soccer" is now mainly used—by fans and non-fans alike—as a degoratory term similar to the racist "wogball". " ... the actions of those two Sydney based businesses have made zero difference to common usage" is a false statement unsupported by the facts. Making this claim 100 times across the encyclopedia does not make this statement any more true. Claims of an Orwellian campaign to change Australian vocabulary are laughable - the only campaign being run is by Aussie Rules/Rugby league fans to keep Association football in its ghetto. No, I am not a fan of association football, but this campaign smacks of "tyranny of the majority" and should be opposed. There is absolutely no need for any special treatment for Australia regarding the name of this sport. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 22:37, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Ha ha ha, so it's a conspiracy now, eh? No, you're the one posting lies. I have posted the truth about the usage of soccer in all the schools and communities of which I have been and am part. Evidence has been presented. If there has been any attempt "to dictate what the name of a sport should be", it has been by Australia's soccer administrators. And it hasn't worked all that well, as demonstrated by the simple fact that there is still a Soccer Club in my town. (Obviously along with hundreds of other examples.) Do I have to take a photo of the sign at their ground and post it here to prove you wrong? HiLo48 (talk) 00:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per Consistency principle of WP:TITLE. Association football is the WP:COMMONNAME worldwide. The title of all articles in the topical series about association football should be the same, as this allows navboxes like {{Oceania topic}} to work. Also, the Australian official name for all leagues is football, not soccer. John Vandenberg 02:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • No, I just had a look around my state, Victoria, and found that the city based leagues avoid both words, soccer and football, instead calling themselves things like "Victorian Premier League" and "Victorian State League Division 1", etc. In the regional areas I found the "Gippsland Soccer League" and the "Bendigo Amateur Soccer League". This is no surprise. There's another sport called Football which has, in practice, already claimed that name. Of course the national league is the A-League. Again, neither soccer NOR football cracks a mention. And re your comments on consistency, surely it's up to Misplaced Pages to cope with the fact that Australia is inconsistent with the rest of the world. It's wrong to inaccurately describe the situation in Australia simply because of Misplaced Pages rules and demands. HiLo48 (talk) 03:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Even the ABS, as noted above, uses "outdoor soccer" and "indoor soccer" to describe variants of the sport. "Consistency" is often used as a justification but rarely is it explained why a country should use words alien or foreign or confusing to it simply because the rest of the world does - we have plenty of examples where that is not so on Misplaced Pages, all of which are fine provided that reliable sources from the country agree. Orderinchaos 05:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • "Association Football" is English, so can't be the common name across the globe, since the entire world doesn't speak English. It's Football in England, so it isn't the common name in England. It's Soccer in Australia, Canada, USA (and South Africa and New Zealand... disputedly) so it's not the common name in the Anglosphere either. The most common form seems to be "Soccer" in the Anglosphere. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 06:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: WP:TITLE also states the variety of English appropriate to that article should be used. Also, :Oceania topic: would continue to work as :Association football in Australia: would become a redirect (see :Template:Football in Europe: for example, where the Ireland article uses association football and the rest use football). IgnorantArmies 07:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• • In other languages it is Fútbol/Futebol/Fußball/etc. These are the names of their leagues and official bodies. And in reply to IgnorantArmies, {{Oceania topic}} will not work properly, as the name of the article must be consistent otherwise the Australian topical page will show a link to itself rather than a bold entry. John Vandenberg 07:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support: Per WP:COMMON and WP:ENGVAR. Soccer is the most common name of the sport in Australia, as evidenced by the current name of the national team and the former names of the national league and association, which was renamed "...to align with the general international usage of the word "football", in preference to "soccer", and to also distance itself from the failings of the old National Soccer League and Soccer Australia. It coined the phrase "old soccer, new football" to emphasise this." (as quoted from the Football Federation Australia article). Other than its use by (mainly British) immigrants, soccer is clearly the more common name of the sport in Australia, despite attempts by the authorities to change this.
  My dictionary, published in Australia, has this definition for football: (1) any of various games played with a round or oval ball and usually based on two teams competing to kick, head, carry, or otherwise propel the ball into each other's goal, territory, etc. I expect most other Australian dictionaries would say the same thing ( IgnorantArmies 07:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support soccer is the most recognisable name of the game in Australia, the FFE has tried to distance itself from the use of soccer, but I just repeating what every one that supports the move has said. Lets look at numbers a search of the FFE website returns 22 hits on "association football" and 3207 hits on "soccer" unfortunately both are flawed because the FFE search engine doesnt follow bolean expression correctly, but since there was only 22 hits on AF I checked them all out none actual refer to the sprot they all refer to bodies like Fotball players association, Cerebral Palsy International Sports and Recreation Association (CPISRA) Football. Even within the sports Australian governing body the term "association football" clearly isnt used in Australia. a redirect from this current article is sufficient for people outside of Australia. When looking at article naming five basic principles are given recognise, precision,concise, natural and consistancy Soccer in Australia ticks four of the five, where as Association football only ticks the consistancy box. AT says Most articles will have a simple and obvious title that is better than any other in terms of most or all of these ideal criteria. If so, use it, as a straightforward choice. also Redirects should be created to articles that may reasonably be searched for or linked to under two or more names (such as different spellings or former names). Conversely, a name that could refer to several different articles may require disambiguation. Using Soccer in Australia as its the most natural, redirect from Association football in Australia as it may be reasonably searched for, and Football in Australia which covers all codes as the disambiguation page. Gnangarra 11:56, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose, per Vandenberg. And because usage is clearly divided in Australia. Rennell435 (talk) 13:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

• But how is it divided? My view is that the bulk of Australians use soccer as the natural name for the sport in this country. This includes many players and fans of the game. The other side is a group of administrators deliberately trying to change the name from soccer to football, largely for commercial reasons. (That in itself demonstrates an acceptance even by them that soccer is the natural name for the game here.) It's not Misplaced Pages's role to assist in their aim of changing the name. It's or role to reflect current truth and reality. HiLo48 (talk) 02:15, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

• My experience is that the majority of players and hardcore fans refer to it as "football" (partly because of the soccer-rugby rivalry), whilst "soccer" is the marginally more mainstream term. It might vary from state to state (I'm speaking from a Sydney perspective). Nightw 08:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment to Rennell435 : When you are watching "The Footy Show", which football code is being featured on the show? --LauraHale (talk) 01:08, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose for consistency and because it's the least controversial and accepted internationally. Moving from this to a controversial name isn't a solution. Nightw 08:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Your consistency argument ignores the reality that Australia IS inconsistent with much of the rest of the world. We should not hide that fact. I am yet to be convinced that Association football is even used much internationally, let alone accepted. The name soccer is really not controversial within Australia, apart from with some administrators who want to change it. As I have said, it's not our job to help them. HiLo48 (talk) 08:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMON. Where I come from, "association football" means the old Victorian Football Association (now VFL). Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
• Comment: I did a google search for football, soccer, "association football" of only Australian domains. Top results for football include: Nike Football Australia, Google directory for gridiron football, followed by two links to Rugby Leagues clubs, and a church newsletter about gridiron. Top results for soccer: A soccer club in WA, Nike Football Australia, a NSW junior soccer club, a futsal site and then the SBS (an important Australian network). Top results for "Association football": A PDF file of a paper about association football, a copy of the Misplaced Pages article, a footy fansite that has soccer in the title, a discussion of the history of the phrase association football, a trove search result, Walter Pless, an A-League fansite, and a Touch Football league site. 79,300 total results for: "Association football". 14,000,000 for soccer. While the term may be offensive to some brits because it is viewed as a form of American imperialism in their country (despite the English roots of the words), we're not dealing with either country and linguistically speaking, a preference is being made to favour the possibility of some British readers over the WP:COMMON and over the accessibility of the article for Australian readers. --LauraHale (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
• Proposal: Given that Association football in Australia is an active and current alternative name for Touch football, the article be disambiguated to link to both articles or have a link to a related Touch football article because "association football" describes two distinct sports, both being played in Australia. (Example of this: Women's basketball where there is a link at the top to netball, which shared the name of that sport for many, many years.) --LauraHale (talk) 01:26, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Question This discussion has now been under way for eight days. The earth was allegedly built quicker than that. How do we move on? HiLo48 (talk) 01:53, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

As you can see by Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Backlog, this isn't the only discussion that has been sitting around for more than seven days. Basically, just sit tight and wait for an admin to get around to closing it (but don't hold your breath, there aren't many admins that work on the RM backlog). You can always leave a request for an uninvolved admin at WP:AN if you want, but again, don't hold your breath. Jenks24 (talk) 03:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Not that impatient. Just curious. Happy to see the debate continue. I'm finding it fun. HiLo48 (talk) 03:39, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Speaking as one of those RM regulars, I wouldn't try to close this until I've seen it sit still for a few days. Closing active discussions is a good way to get reverted, or otherwise generate lots of static. Better to be slow and sure; good thing there's no deadline, huh? :) -GTBacchus 06:04, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - "Soccer" is not the only name by which this sport is known in Australia. Better to avoid issues by sticking with the sport's official name and call the article Association football in Australia. – PeeJay 22:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
  • On what basis can you call Association football the official name? HiLo48 (talk) 04:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
    • Well, how about the fact that FIFA stands for "Federation Internationale de Football Association", which translates as "International Federation of Association Football"? Is that official enough for you? – PeeJay 07:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
      • Sorry. Yes, of course. I thought you were speaking about the official name within Australia. My mistake. The problem with that name, of course, is that it seems to be the common name nowhere at all. Most articles on Misplaced Pages are named after common names. The sport we're discussing has two common names, football in most of the world, and soccer in a few places, including the USA and Australia. I really don't see a problem with Misplaced Pages accepting and acknowledging that reality. HiLo48 (talk) 08:42, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
        • Personally, I do accept that "soccer" may be the common name for the sport among the Australian population, but what about among the reliable media sources? As people have noted above, even the national association is now called "Football Federation Australia". That would seem to indicate that the two names are approaching parity. And again, that would seem to suggest that we should avoid a name that could cause controversy and stick to the sport's official name, association football. – PeeJay 20:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
          • The name of the national association was a commercial, marketing based decision. Not a trend in language at all. That association is trying to tell the rest of the nation to call the sport football, not association football, and it's not working in at least half of the country, because it makes no sense. I hope you have read all of this thread. That will clarify what I've just said, and tell you about media usage. The only universally recognised, unambiguous, common name in Australia is soccer. HiLo48 (talk) 20:30, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
            • If you read my comment above you'll see that the FFA doesnt/hasnt used the term "association football" at all in reference to the sport so in this case Misplaced Pages is making up the term, somewhere in our policies there is position that Misplaced Pages doesnt makeup terms it uses whats being used. Gnangarra 03:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
              • "Misplaced Pages is making up the term"? I'm actually dumbfounded at the ignorance of that statement. It is universally accepted that the official name for the sport is 'association football', and has been for the last 150 years. I hope you're not suggesting that Misplaced Pages has been around for that long. – PeeJay 10:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
                • • In context of the sport in Australia yes its a made up term, the FFA(sports governing body in Ausralia in case you dont know) dosnt use the term association football it uses the ambigious term football and commonly even on the FFA site its called soccer. This is just another case of systemic bias that ignores the local usage. Gnangarra 14:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
                • It is not universally accepted. The sport has two names, football in most of the world, and soccer in a few places, including Australia. Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
                  • Are you being intentionally obtuse? The sport has two common names, that's correct, but the only official name for the sport is "association football". – PeeJay 13:15, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Where to from here?

I don't agree with this naming decision and nor do I agree with the basis on which it is made (when you strip it down to the basics, it is based on nothing but a crude counting exercise). However, now that it is made, do we now start the Orwellian task of ridding every article on the sport in Australia of the dreaded "f" word? Because that appears to be the logic here. Unless we have some sort of plan, there will be edit warring between partisans of AFL, RL and "soccer" in Australian "soccer" articles. Now that we have abandoned the compromise that has served the rest of the encyclopedia well to adopt the position of the AFL etc. we have now created more of a battlefield not less. So, where from here? -- Mattinbgn (talk) 20:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, I'd find the idea that I closed a debate on a head count downright insulting if I didn't think it was just petulant lashing out. Secondly, the "compromise that has served the rest of the encyclopedia well" was only ever supposed to be for global articles and, as noted above in my close, is already discarded in local cases (particularly the US, but not exclusively). Thirdly, internal consistency across all of the Australian football articles is nice to have, but there's no time limit for putting it in place, nor any, ahem, "Orwellian" requirement to do so (I wonder whether you'd have applied that charming adjective to the removal of the word "soccer"). Editors should be discouraged from making mass-edits to that effect just as with any other ENGVAR issue, regardless of this particular move. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 07:36, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

There's no need for mass edits. It's more a situation of now having a stronger guideline. It should reduce disputes. HiLo48 (talk) 11:37, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I bet you it doesn't, although from my point of view I won't be interfering with partisan AFL/RL fans cleansing articles such as Perth Oval and Stadium Australia in the future. Of course, using exactly the same logic applied here, there is an even better case for using the term "AFL" rather than "Australian football" in all articles on that topic (and especially NSW and Qld articles) ..., -- Mattinbgn (talk) 22:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say "head count" of numbers on this talk page, I said crude number counting - i.e. rough and ready analyses of use of the terms via web searches and total dismissal of the content and context in which these terms are used. Your rationale for your decision is no better than using a google search count at an AfD. Sorry, but that is true. This is a very poor close and your lazy psychoanalysis of my reasons for thinking so is a little rude don't you think? When we decide to adopt the position of one of the partisan groups in this dispute (and this debate is wider than and move away from the global compromise, you should not be surprised if it causes more issues than it fixes. I look forward to seeing the supporters of this close deal with the inevitable disputes on articles like Lucas Neill, Kevin Muscat etc. where the term "soccer" will stand out like a sore thumb to readers from outside Aust. Don't like the term "Orwellian"? Well then perhaps Misplaced Pages should not be dictating to readers that the name of their sport isn't actually what they think it is. Mattinbgn (talk) 22:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

There's already a perfectly good analogy in the use of "soccer" in the likes of Tim Howard. The rest of that reply is simply lashing out, and even as an obvious partisan in this debate you should know better than that as an administrator yourself. Unless there is something productive to be debated in this thread I think we're done here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 23:08, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

You may think it's done and dusted but as far as I am concerned the war has just started. So far the uneducated bigots think they have won. Far from it. Silent Billy (talk) 02:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Reading through the comments in the "Requested move" thread, I am struck by the fact that the greatest number of contributors to the thread are either AFL partisans by self admission (user boxes or membership of a project) or by dint of their contributions. The request was not widely publicised and seeing as it affects many pages it should have been. Silent Billy (talk) 03:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

As a Physical Education teacher I really don't appreciate being called an "uneducated bigot". It says a lot more about you than about your arguments. HiLo48 (talk) 05:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

When I was at school one phys ed teacher regarded any one who played anything other than football (ie. rugby union - league was an anathema too) in winter as a "pooftah". That was closed minded and unfair. Do you allow the kids that you teach to enjoy the sports of their choice? Silent Billy (talk) 06:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and we use the obvious, sensible names for them all. I'm in Victoria. Football means Aussie Rules (not a decision of mine - simple reality), and the round ball game is called Soccer. I have never heard anyone at school or in the community object. I still don't appreciate being classified as an "uneducated bigot". HiLo48 (talk) 07:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I think this whole argument is ridiculous. All forms (Australian Rules, Rugby League, Rugby Union, Touch Football, American Football and Association Football) all have the ability and ability to call themselves football. There is no ambiguity about what 'Association Football' means so why can't these articles use this term in prefernce to 'soccer'???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TinTin (talk • contribs) 06:42, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Soccer is entirely unambiguous, is more common and more well-understood than association football. The argument for the name of this page has been decided. The article on the sport itself is still titled association football, despite it in no way complying with WP:COMMON. It's basically been put in as a compromise between football and soccer. IgnorantArmies 08:46, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Terms like "Mongoloid" are entirely unambiguous too but it does not mean that we should continue to use it to describe people with Down's Syndrome. Silent Billy (talk) 12:03, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I fail to see how comparing soccer with Down syndrome is relevant at all. IgnorantArmies 12:51, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

It's an example of a word being used in a negative manner so often that it becomes an offensive term. Read Johnny Warren's Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters and have a read of Das Libero's Soccerphobia. You might not be aware of how bad it was because it didn't get mainstream coverage at the time. As an example, any sort of fight amongst fans at any sporting event is referred to as a "soccer riot". The display of a political flag of questionable intent at the recent Australia-Serbia match in Melbourne caused the media to associate it with "soccer" supporters, whereas it is more to do with the rocky political history of the Balkans - the sport is secondary. It's hard to sum up in a short paragraph, but nothing has really changed since the last time it was discussed (details of which I linked in the discussion above), so I don't know why the outcome should be different this time. -- Chuq (talk) 23:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Domestic soccer articles

I noticed the current pattern is Association football in xxxxxxxxx. Would anyone have any problems with me changing these to Soccer in xxxxxxxxx per the above discussion ie. is there any reason the points outlined above for the country as a whole would not apply to the individual states and territories? Cheers, IgnorantArmies 10:41, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

It makes sense on the surface, and given the recent decision on this direction, you wouldn't be breaking any rules by doing it. However, one aspect of the discussion which led to us settling on soccer as the common name in Australia was the suggestion that usage differs a lot in different parts of the country. I'm willing to accept that this is possible, but the quality of discussion was sadly not good enough to really find that out for sure. I have no doubt that your proposal is totally valid for those areas on the AFL side of the Barassi Line, but may be less appropriate in much of NSW and Qld. I am not actually arguing for that position. I am hoping for polite, constructive, intelligent contributions from editors who know more about those states. HiLo48 (talk) 00:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Should we rename articles such as Melbourne Victory FC to Melbourne Victory FC Soccer Club? Or change Football Federation Australia to Soccer Football Federation Australia (or Football Soccer Federation Australia or Soccer Federation Australia? Or is the fact these names actually include "Football" in their title make them exempt from being 'de-footballed'? Or is my addition of the "officially known as 'football" enough that we do not have to de-football existing names of football where such names exist. I should also note that this could have an effect on other non-"Soccer" related names. Such as the Adelaide Football Club, who if "Soccer" related names are going to be changed from "Football" to "Soccer", that Adelaide Football Club for example should also have to be renamed to Adelaide Australian Football Club and so on for all sports in Australia which do not completely match the 'official' name for their sport. Macktheknifeau (talk) 14:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Mack that is ridiculous and unhelpful to the discussion, Melbourne Victory FC, or Perth Glory FC are entities in their own right that is their name there is absolutely no reason to make up new names for them, The same for the FFA is the FFA, GFC is the GFC. The question asked was do we just reword all the state based articles or is there any to which an argument can be made for it to be still be called Association Football. Gnangarra 00:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Gnangarra is right. It's not complicated. Melbourne Victory FC is the exact name of the body, so no messing around is needed. It's worth noting though that the FC doesn't stand for Football Club. It doesn't stand for anything. It's just FC. HiLo48 (talk) 04:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually FC does stand for Football Club and FC is used as a short version of Football Club. "Official Website of the Melbourne Victory Football Club" for example, and named as such on their own websites. Can I also ask why the list of colloquial and informal names Football, Footy, The World Game, The Beautiful Game was removed when there are identical colloquialisms on the AFL page (I was merely trying to standardise that colloquial section between the two pages)? Was it just the references? I thought I did the references correctly. If I did not I apologise I'm a bit wiki rusty. And as for the "official name" the peak body is named Football Federation Australia, the peak world body FIFA uses the name "Association Football", so it would suggest the official name of the sport of Association Football in Australia is either Association Football (if taken as a world view) or Football taken as what the local peak body uses as the name for the sport, just as the AFL calls the official name of their game Australian Football. Macktheknifeau (talk) 08:39, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not convinced about "Football Club" being part of the Victory's legal name. I recall some earlier discussions and research on the matter where it was shown that only the form with "FC" in it was registered. I think this had something to do with the existence of the Melbourne Football Club (AFL). As for the colloquial names, I'd be happy for at least some (maybe all) of them to stay, but I really couldn't figure out what had gone wrong with the references, so I took it all out. I suggest you try adding them back one small bit at a time. and checking what the article looks like after each one. As for an "official" name, exactly what does that mean? An example of use is not the same as a reliable source. I don't see how one body can claim as "officially" its own a word that is already used by many other sports in Australia. Doesn't make sense in this country. (It's fine where there is only one sport commonly known as football.) HiLo48 (talk) 08:58, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Well on their page it says their full name is Melbourne Victory Football Club so that's what I'm going off. Macktheknifeau (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. There's no sentence that I can see with exactly that wording. (Do correct me if I'm wrong.) To NOT say exactly that is significant. HiLo48 (talk) 10:35, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

As for the "Official" name: The AFL page tells me that the official name of that sport is Australian Football. The peak bodies for the two rugby codes name themselves as Rugby (International Rugby Board) and Rugby League (Rugby League International Federation). This leaves Football as the official name for Association Football in Australia as named by the calling of the peak body Football Federation Australia. It seems odd to me that the title of this article is Soccer in Australia, when none of the other codes are officially titled Football and that only Football as in Association Football actually uses Football as it's official title, with the other codes having their own distinct official titles.Macktheknifeau (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

You may be interested to read WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAMES. Jenks24 (talk) 10:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

And I have already asked you to explain what authority a sporting body has to claim a common word as its own. HiLo48 (talk) 10:35, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

What authority do AFL fans have to claim that Association Football shouldn't be used just because those AFL fans use part of that word as a colloquialism for Australian Rules Football? Macktheknifeau (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Footbal (Soccer) rather than just Soccer!

It should clearly be named Football (Soccer) all those associated with the Sport call it Football or have preference to the term - the offical term for the sport is Football not Soccer and it has been that way since 2004 thus it should be called Football; if the association was still Soccer Australia then Soccer would be appropriate but it is not! This section on the Sports in Australia page should cater for fans of the sport and disregard what people who hate/dislike or don't play the sport call it!

FFA = Football Federation Australia Every state Federation follows Football as well!

The term is officially Football!

I rest my case! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simba1409 (talk • contribs) 08:06, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

All those points were made in the discussion up above (the "Requested move" section) only two months ago. I suggest you read it in full before posting here again. Unless you have something new to add, there is no point in taking this discussion any further. HiLo48 (talk) 08:11, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

This is why Misplaced Pages is so bad ^^ People like you! Guess your an AFL fan? If the sport is officially Football then it's Football! And yes I have more to add - more and more people are calling it Football and extent of this would be the Australia Football facebook page with 30,00 odd people being fans! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simba1409 (talk • contribs) 08:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

The proposition wasn't properly discussed and a number of admins are very disturbed at the way it was railroaded through. The proper name should be used ie. "Association football". Silent Billy (talk) 06:22, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

How was it not properly discussed? Who are these "disturbed" admins? Why is "association football" the "proper name"? IgnorantArmies 07:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree! The sport is called Association Football an thus should be called that - apparently an offical 'term' of Football in this country isn't enough to persuade these no-life AFL and NRL idiots! Those associated with the sport call it Football not Soccer! Deal with it! Simba1409 (talk) 10:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is an example from my neck of the woods that says otherwise. There are many more like it. HiLo48 (talk) 10:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It also doesn't help to call other editors "no-life AFL and NRL idiots". Comment on content, not on the contributor. IgnorantArmies 11:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Professional level mate! Get with it! The offical term is Football for the sport in Australia! If I were to go and change that clubs name to Football club rather than Soccer club I would be wrong as its offical name is Soccer club... - get what I'm saying????

Simba1409 (talk) 07:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes I feel like playing this silly game, and sometimes I don't. Right now, all that needs to be said is that you need to read the WHOLE thread above where the decision to use the name soccer was made, then decide if you have anything new to add that wasn't already discussed there. Both the claim of football being the name used by "everybody" associated with the sport, and the issue of an "official" name, were very well addressed, I can assure you. So, have you read ALL of that thread yet? If not, stop wasting your time here. (Oh, and IgnorantArmies is right. Niceness will achieve more than abuse.) HiLo48 (talk) 08:01, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

My point again is that Football is the offical term and Association Football is the name of the sport! I don't see any nicknames used for the other sports on the Sport in Australia page and therefor the same model should be followed!

Nevertheless what is wrong with having Football (Soccer) or Association Football (Soccer) - pretty sure all of Australia's players have Football (Soccer) player in their pages!

Simba1409 (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

So, have you read ALL of that thread yet? If not, stop wasting your time here. HiLo48 (talk) 09:38, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no need to be abusive and sarcastic. This is a "warning". Silent Billy (talk) 06:27, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly what's wrong with my words? They are realistic. Everything Simba1409 has posted here was extremely well covered in the thread above. It's intended as sensible advice. Your own unhappiness with the decision from that thread and your blatant bias is clearly on display when you make no criticism at all of...

• "Professional level mate! Get with it!" (A response that made no sense anyway in the context.)
• "get what I'm saying????"
• "...these no-life AFL and NRL idiots!"
• "This is why Misplaced Pages is so bad ^^ People like you! Guess your an AFL fan?"
• "Deal with it!"

To criticise my approach and ignore those abusive comments from someone whose sentiments you happen to agree with makes no sense at all. HiLo48 (talk) 06:39, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is failing because of errors like this! If something is called something it should be called that with nicknames cited after! Maybe we should change the rest of the page and add nicknames for all the other sports 'cause that seems like a great idea!

Simba1409 (talk) 09:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't want to have to do this, but it seems you won't read what was posted above, so I'll make two points again here. I teach Physical Education in a Victorian school. We play many sports. One is obviously Aussie Rules. It's known to and by all the kids as football. Many play for a local "Football Club". Another is soccer, known to all the kids as, well, soccer. Many play for a local "Soccer Club". It's not a nickname. It is THE name of the code. I have no preference for either sport. I've probably played more games of soccer in my life than football (Aussie Rules). Nobody, repeat, nobody in my town calls the round ball game football. It would make no sense. And, any claim you make about proper name and official name carries no weight in that environment. Unlike the French, we do not have official definitions of our language. A sports league cannot define any word to be "official". The concept has no meaning. HiLo48 (talk) 10:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

You're a teacher in the heart of the AFL?? No surprise there! I play and coach at different clubs - at the both clubs the players, coaches, presidents, sponsors even the local politicians call it Football. This is in Tassie! As a teacher you SHOULD in my opinion be telling the kids that the sport is called Association Football and that Soccer is a mere nickname for the sport as that's what it is! It is a nickname mate! If it wasn't a nickname we wouldn't have this issue! With the town issue - you live in Victoria... People in my town call it Soccer but those who know and love the sport call it Football I bet the same thing applies in your town but you just don't notice! It does carry weight; the offical term is Football since 2004! The sport is NOT CALLED SOCCER! The Federation defines it to be offical via Football Federation Australia which was once Soccer Australia but is no more as I said hence 2004! Simba1409 (talk) 08:58, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Let's just have a look at the language of that post....

• "You're a teacher in the heart of the AFL?? No surprise there!" The very start of your post. I've no idea what point you're making.
• "As a teacher you SHOULD in my opinion be telling the kids..." No, you STILL haven't read the above thread yet. Education Department Phys Ed documents were shown to use the name Soccer.
• "It is a nickname mate!" We've never met. When used in that way, mate displays aggression. That won't help your case.
• "Soccer is a mere nickname..." No, Soccer is the common name among the community. Again, read the thread above.
• "...the offical term is Football..." Rubbish. You don't even acknowledge my own posts in THIS thread. You must learn to communicate, not just tell.
• "The sport is NOT CALLED SOCCER!" Wrong. See above.

That's enough on this matter. I've shown good faith. You haven't. Bye for now. HiLo48 (talk) 07:49, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This sport was named Association Football! The offical term in this country is Football as stated by the FFA! You have no right to say otherwhys! Among the community? What community?

P.S if you don't know what I mean by heart of the AFL then you shouldn't be a sport teacher! Simba1409 (talk) 07:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This isn't going to make any progress. There was a very extensive discussion of the issue just a couple of months back, that covered a lot of issues and resulted in the current name. While there may well be good reasons why this should be revisited somewhere in the future, I can't see any value in reopening the discussion this soon after it was closed: consensus can change, but it rarely changes this fast. Simba1409, I recommend that you let it be for now, and come back to the issue once enough time has passed to warrant looking at it again. - Bilby (talk) 08:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Simba - Of course I know that being in Victoria means I'm in the heart of AFL territory, but that surely couldn't have been the point you were making. Don't treat me (or any other editors here) like idiots. That we are trying to explain to you how the decision was made does not actually make us responsible for the decision. And it's irrelevant whether we agree with it or not. You really do need to have a very thorough look at the above thread to both see how the process worked, and to see that all the points you have so far made were already made in that thread. HiLo48 (talk) 09:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This is ridiculous; again I say this is why wikipedia is so bad - if a sport has a name (as most do) it makes sense to call the sport by that given name and note any nicknames... yet again I find an imprudent error on wikipedia with no way of fixing due to some garbage discussion. FIFA = International Federation of Association Football, FFA = Football Federation Australia. Before 2004 it would have been correct to use the term Soccer but some people can't get that through their thick heads!

edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28Football_in_Australia%29 Should not there be no arguments??? The pages should read Football (soccer) according to this article!

Simba1409 (talk) 21:36, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

That page is historical, and doesn't reflect current policy. I understand what you're saying, though. However, the debate we had was basically around two issues - there is the official name, which is football, and there is the common name, which the consensus decided is soccer. The FFA would like to see football become the common name, and this may well happen in the future. But the problem for Misplaced Pages was to decide if we should use the official, but possibly less common, name, or if we should go with soccer, and the call was to go with what it was argued that most people in Australia still call the sport. That may well change in the future - it may well be that the consensus will change to go with the official name set by FFA, or it may be that "football" will become a more common name that soccer, so this isn't a problem that will necessarily exist forever. But allowing some time before having the debate again is probably wise. :) - Bilby (talk) 22:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There was no "problem for Misplaced Pages". Rather it was a problem for some AFL activists who took over the discussion. In reality there was no consensus at all in that discussion just a few blokes mainly from south of the Barrasi line for whom the use of the term "football" to describe anything but their beloved "footy" is anathema. They cannot get over the fact that even in Australia a majority of folks don't give a flying fig about their code (or it has to be said care very much about any sport at all). The solution is quite easy: the round ball code code should be described as "Association football". Alternatively we should change all references to the code that is only played in one country at a professional elite level as "footy". Silent Billy (talk) 04:01, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I actually did read the above discussion and I can't see a consensus either - I see an argument with fallacious 'evidence' to support it!

Simba1409 (talk) 06:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The question that is yet to be answered is why our national teams' page is the Australia national association football team yet this article remains as "Soccer"... This article should be changed to Association football in Australia for no other reason than consistency. Every other ambiguous Australian football article has it and makes no sense to keep it as "Soccer in Australia" other than to appease over-sensitive League/Aussie Rules supporters getting their knickers in a knot and/or on a troll. The case needs to be made as to why it should STAY, and NOT be changed Ck786 (talk) 03:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Because it's quite common for Australians to use the names Rugby League, Rugby Union or Australian Football, but nobody ever uses the name Association Football. HiLo48 (talk) 07:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

You can't win with this guy ^ too much of an AFL fan who can't help but cry as the real Football becomes more popular in this country! I see that it would be stupid to just name the page Football in Australia as we have, Association Football, Rugby, A.F.L and I think we might even have some 'American Football' over here to but I'm not quite sure; it shouldn't however be called Soccer as no one who supports the sport in this country calls it that - we all call it Football and thus to avoid confusion we should re name the article to what the sport is actually called; that being 'Association Football in Australia.' BTW NO ONE calls AFL Australian Football - they either say Aussie Rules or Footy, < that's day to day life personal knowledge!

P.S this is Simba1409 (can't be bothered logging in lol) 58.169.68.114 (talk) 21:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

This entire article is a mess

It's being completely marred by pro thugby and gayfl supporters each section has a different take on whether its Football, Soccer, Association Football or, wogball... the whole article deserves to be deleted until people can come to their senses and realise calling it Football is not a personal slight against them.

Do have a look at the section Talk:Soccer in Australia#Requested move above. There was extensive discussion there leading to the current policy. HiLo48 (talk) 03:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

This doesn't stop vandals coming in and changing the name as they see fit, the article is a mess, there is no one standard term in it. The standard term is Football, the diminished usage term is Soccer. I personally am sick of non-fans determining what these articles should be called in Australia by bullying tactics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.162.0.212 (talk) 03:36, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

One problem is that the Requested move decision above was less than a year ago, the article is considerably older, and the philosophy at the end of that move discussion was to not arbitrarily change every usage of football to soccer immediately. Maybe it should have been, but there was a general feeling that it would be good to avoid further confrontation in the short term. This means that older uses of football are still there. I would be surprised if there have been new additions using football since that move. HiLo48 (talk) 04:55, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

It would appear that News online outlets and some dead tree ones are changing the label for "football"

"Nowhere has this debate been more polarised than in the mainstream press. Fairfax - publisher of the Sydney Morning Herald - was the first to break with tradition and go with "football" in 2006. Other publications such as the Newcastle Herald adopted a halfway house of "football-soccer". The Canberra Times used football as the drop down tab online while soccer stayed as the sub-heading of individual stories. Only the Melbourne-based Age remained (and remains) steadfastly and completely in the "Soccer" camp.

News Limited, publisher of daily newspapers in Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide, has likewise been resolutely in the "Soccer" camp, but that is about to change.

As of Monday, just days before the new A-League season is due to start, Sydney’s Daily and Sunday Telegraph will make the switch over to football."

"It’s no longer enough to say "in Australia, it’s soccer" because for many, it simply isn’t."

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/mainstream-aussie-press-finally-adopting-the-term-football-as-soccer-seen-as-thing-of-the-past/story-e6frfmq9-1226486030704

Time for a move on the page rename I think.... Silent Billy (talk) 10:14, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

It seems that there may be a bit of cherry picking in the quotes above - the article isn't anywhere near as strong as the quotes would suggest. The main impression I got from the article was that the media is changing, and that both terms are used in Australia, rather than "football" coming to dominate. - Bilby (talk) 10:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The AFL thugs need to realise no-one outside of Melbourne calls AFL football, and everyone else calls it AFL. Sure, it's incorrect, and the name of the league not the sport, but hey, it's the common usage term for NSW and QLD, which comprise over 50% of the population therefore it's the common name and we should rename "Australian Rules Football" to "AFL" throughout wikipedia. Outside Melbourne people use Football, Rugby League, Rugby Union and AFL. Those are what the terms should be, and they should start with changing "Soccer" to Football just like it is all over the world and how it should be here. Macktheknifeau (talk) 15:23, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Two points...

1. The opening words of that post are not going to lead to civilised discussion. Please show some good faith.

2. You (and others above) appear to be re-opening the extensive discussion in the Requested move above. You will get nowhere making random points in a thread like this. You would need to take a more structured approach, and make another formal Request for a move. This would need to involve addressing all the points made by the closing Admin in that earlier discussion, and demonstrating that significant change has occurred in common usage since that discussion. (Quotes cherry picked from one newspaper article would definitely not be enough.) HiLo48 (talk) 17:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I went to Newsbank, which has an archive of around 200 different Australian newspapers. If football is indeed the word being used, then we should have a low number of occurrences. Since the start of 2012, there were 17,147 references to soccer in Australian newspaper sources. On 1 October, there were 44. In September 2012, there were 1,643 references to soccer. For 2012, 1,253 of the total references to soccer came from The Daily Telegraph, 1,010 came from The Australian, 937 came from The Age, 878 came from the AAP News, 661 came from the Sydney Morning Herald. Before I'm willing to entertain a name debate, can I see some statistics on newspaper usage of football (soccer) to describe the sport in question? I looked for the phrase association football. In 2012, there were 20 total references. 6 of these were in the Daily Telegraph, 3 in the AAP News. 6 of the 20 stories were quizzes, and 1 was a letter to the editor. I'm not seeing any indication of support for the use of that term in Australia. --LauraHale (talk) 21:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

In 2012, there were 56,928 references to football. 230 on October 1. Of the 230, 35 were made by The Age. 29 were made by the Herald Sun, 26 by The Daily Telegraph. In the first 10 results, not a single reference to football is to the soccer variant. Is there stronger evidence than this that I am missing? The Australian sport books I own refer to the sport as soccer. The only ones referring to it as football are ones from Europe. I would like to see more verifiable proof about wider usage of the term around Australia where football = soccer to the point where the sport name would be demonstrated as the dominant one amongst all codes. --LauraHale (talk) 21:42, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that research Laura. It should help to calm the debate. HiLo48 (talk) 22:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

We don't call it Association Football. That is a name forced on Football supporters by the AFL project so they could use it as a stepping stone to then get it renamed to Soccer. Melbourne is the only place that commonly uses the term Soccer now, and if the AFL project had their way it'd probably still be called 'Wogball'. Ironic for a city which claims itself to be the 'sporting capital of the world', but has the nerve to call AFL football when it is a game only played seriously in that one city compared to the worldwide usage of true Football. The last 'debate' was merely a handful of AFL project users forcing their opinions on the rest of the country. Macktheknifeau (talk) 05:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Melbourne isn't the only place. Soccer is used in the ACT. The article cannot be called Football because it is not common usage and would cause confusion in Australia. (It is bad enough trying to figure out which code is the code for the three different "Footy Show"s that are on the air. I'm not an AFL supporter. Please do not make that assucation because you don't like my point of view for wording preference. I prefer soccer to watch and play, but I know enough about Australian sport to know the usage of football is not common for soccer in the country. The sources support the use of soccer. What argument, beyond word usage and the name of the sports governing body, do you have for a name change? Also, no. Worldwide usage is also inaccurate. the use of football is not worldwide. (Australia and the USA are part of the venn diagram circle that makes up THE WORLD.) --LauraHale (talk) 06:03, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that citing the Murdoch rags particularly the Hun as founts of wisdom as to the proper name of the code is pushing it somewhat given those papers are (or have been) "official" newspapers for the AFL and the Team formerly known as South Melbourne. That said the official name for the code is "Football" and indeed the first word in the article, "Soccer" is linked to Association football. At the very least the article should be renamed "Association football (soccer) in Australia" or "Football (soccer) in Australia". Failing that the AFL bullies and thugs (and that is what indeed they are) should be honest enough to have a section similar to the Etymology section in the US article on the code. At least their bias and phobias would be on display to all and not just the few who click on the Talk tab.

Interestingly, in the argument over there parallel to this one, one poster makes the point that "Soccer" is the official name in the US. That is not the case in Australia. The official name is "Football" and that is what we should be using here. Silent Billy (talk) 07:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is pointless. Much regurgitation. Please re-read my post above at 17:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC). HiLo48 (talk) 08:23, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

It is only pointless because you will die in a ditch rather than allow a name change for this article. You will brook no argument against your position. No comprise will be allowed so far as you are concerned. The previous close and the reasons for it were ridiculous. The admin who did it more or less conceded that it was only to keep the peace and that he did not understand the points being made. What I don't get Hilo is that you have no interst in the code. You are only here as a spoiler. Silent Billy (talk) 13:01, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is pointless. Rather than making personal attacks, please re-read my post above at 17:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC), and do what I suggested there if you think it will achieve anything. I don't. HiLo48 (talk) 21:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The issue I have with association football is that noone in Australia calls it that, not the fans or the media. Major media sources like the Daily Telegraph have now switched to football, but many people in Australia also call it soccer. That way, football or football (soccer) are the best choices. Portillo (talk) 05:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

You're right about association football. Nobody calls it that. While some call the game football, there are three other Australian professional sports whose fans also call their games football, plus a few other non-professional versions (Gaelic, American...). Calling any of the codes football in Australia is unsatisfactory in Misplaced Pages. Soccer is the simple, unique, common name for the round ball game, recognised by all Australians. I cannot understand the fuss about using that name here. It works. It causes no confusion. It's perfect! HiLo48 (talk) 07:40, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Many Australians and media like Daily Telegraph and Sydney Morning Herald are now using football, so football (soccer) is the best choice. However, noone uses association football. Shouldnt Misplaced Pages reflect the culture of the country it is describing? Portillo (talk) 09:31, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

By mentioning those two newspapers it looks like you're really just talking about Sydney, rather than Australia. Have you spent much time in the Aussie Rules states - VIC, SA, WA, TAS, & NT? In those places football means only one thing - Australian football. That's my concern with using the word football here. That word definitely doesn't refer to the round ball game in all those parts of Australia I've just mentioned. It very explicitly refers to a different sport entirely. What can possibly be wrong with the word soccer for the round ball game? I don't understand the opposition. It works everywhere. (And I really must also draw everyone's attention again to the thread "Requested move" up above. It was a pretty exhaustive discussion, with a clear conclusion. Soccer is the name of a the game in Australia in Misplaced Pages.) HiLo48 (talk) 10:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Adelaide Now and Perth Now use football aswell. So it should be football (soccer) or soccer (football), but not association football, which noone uses and will probably confuse people even more. Portillo (talk) 09:42, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Until that post I had never heard of Adelaide Now and Perth Now. Their usage surprises me. As a teacher I simply know that schools and kids in those cities use the name soccer for the round ball game, simply to avoid confusion with Aussie Rules, which is commonly known as football. This website is a typical example. Another revealing site is the South Australian Amateur Soccer League. There are many, many similar examples. When kids in those states say football, they mean Aussie Rules. They certainly don't mean soccer. Schools have Soccer teams and Football teams. The latter is, naturally, Aussie Rules. And the kids don't speak of playing AFL. Those X Now media sites do not reflect true common usage.

But again, this is all moot. I really must also draw everyone's attention again to the thread "Requested move" up above. It was a pretty exhaustive discussion, with a clear conclusion. Soccer is the name of a the game in Australia in Misplaced Pages. HiLo48 (talk) 11:11, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

National Youth Championships

Every year there are national youth championships held in both girls and boys divisions across a couple of age groups (Northern NSW Football Link). Teams that go are state-based but include Metro and Country teams for the larger states. I think this needs to be included some where in this or another related article. The thing is I am unsure which article or which section would be best. Please provide advice and/or contribute to this addition.--TinTin (talk) 01:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

That link to the Northern NSW Football site contains information about a game which involves a round ball. You can't refer to that game as "football" here. Silent Billy (talk) 04:45, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

A round ball, eh? Maybe it's Gaelic football. HiLo48 (talk) 05:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Discussion about the usage of the word "football".

Because Australia, being an English-speaking nation, calls the sport by both its common names and nicknames (i.e. football, soccer, footy, etc) I suggest that this article should be renamed to Association football in Australia rather than simply calling it "soccer" to distinguish it from the US and Canada articles. Football in Australia and Australian football should be merged and lead to a disambiguation page. Hitmonchan (talk) 23:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Please have a look at the exhaustive discussion in the section above titled "Requested move". I don't think there have been any significant linguistic developments in the soccer area since that thread reached its conclusion. HiLo48 (talk) 05:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move again

It has been proposed in this section that Soccer in Australia be renamed and moved to Football in Australia. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Soccer in Australia → Football in Australia – In the last few months, whenever anyone has brought up the name "Football" on the talk page, user:HiLo48 has told people to go read the "request move" from 2011 (where Association Football in Australia was moved to Soccer in Australia), while claiming nothing has changed in regards to the evidence. I have decided to take up Mr Hilo on his offer to read the section, and evidence, and I have found that instead of nothing having changed to warrant the page being "Football in Australia", substantial evidence used by the admin to make his decision has in fact changed signficiantly to the point where this article should be renamed Football In Australia.

The 2011 Move from "Association football in Australia" to "Soccer in Australia" happened directly as a result of evidence showing the mass media in this country were using the term "Soccer" as opposed to Football, under the "WP:COMMON" guideline. All other evidence that supported the word "Football" being used was dismissed, or weighted far less than the value of the 'evidence' that supported the word "Soccer" in the media. The only argument those on the "Soccer in Australia" side had was that the media used Soccer.

This has demonstrably changed since that 2011 Request For Move. The main piece of evidence was the media use of the term 'soccer', but that no longer applies. Misplaced Pages has a list of the top newspapers in Australia by circulation that I used to check the dozen or so highest circulating newspapers, most of which happened to be referenced in the last RFM debate. After removing a handful of newspapers like the Australian Financial Review which have no specific section name for the sport, or even any sport coverage at all, six of the biggest newspapers have switched from Soccer to Football (Herald Sun, Daily Telegraph, Courier Mail, Adelaide Advertiser, Canberra Times, Perth Now), adding to the two newspapers that already called it Football (The Australian & The Sydney Morning Herald).

Other notable media outlets that use the word Football include all 5 of the major Television stations (Channels 7, 9, 10, ABC & SBS), Fox Sports Australia, The Roar.com, SportsAustralia.com & Sky News Australia.

The only major media outlets of note that continue to use "Soccer" are the AFL-centric newspapers The Age & The West Australia, but as shown above, other media in those states use Football, so Soccer is hardly a globally used word in either Victoria or Western Australia, and the idea that "Soccer" is a globally used term not only in Australia but in Victoria itself should be discounted and not considered evidence for the use of the word "Soccer".

The word "Football" is used by the Governing bodies of the sport from the world peak body association (Federation Internationale de Football Association), Australia's continental association (The Asian Football Confederation), the peak body in Australia (Football Federation Australia), and all 9 of the major state or regional based bodies (Football NSW, Football Queensland, Northern NSW Football, Football Federation Victoria, Football Federation Tasmania, Football Federation of South Australia, Football West, Capital Football & the Football Federation Northern Territory). The A-League is made up of teams that use the name "Football Club" as opposed to "Soccer Club". Additionally, the sport is called Football across the world, in the leagues that are most popular in Australia such as the English Premier League which is organised by the English Football Association.

The Australian Government uses Football in various websites and discussion on the sport, for example the "Strategic Review into the sustainability of football in Australia". The Australian Institute of Sport calls it's programs for the sport "Football - Men" and "Football - Women" as does a number of the state institutes that actually have a football program. The Australian Olympic Committee uses the word "Football".

The common names for the other sports are often mistakenly called football, even though they are not simply "Football". They are Rugby League, Rugby Union, & Australian Football. Changing Soocer in Australia to Football in Australia has no bearing on the other sports, because their names are not just "Football". If those pages are in fact compromised by a change to "Fooball", it would be up to the project supporters of those sports using incorrect names to fix their names, rather than blocking the correct move of Soccer in Australia to Football in Australia.

Without the core 'evidence' being mass media media using Soccer, the Melbourne centric view that the word "Soccer" is more popular or used more commonly than Football comes crashing down. Only in the AFL Heartland is the word 'soccer' used, and it would be foolish to force the name Soccer onto the sport of Football because some of the media outlets in Victoria (not all, as shown above), and a handful of self-confessed AFL supporting wikipedia editors don't want to have to use the correct word for the sport of Football on Misplaced Pages. Macktheknifeau (talk) 08:19, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose move: There is more than enough evidence that football is NOT the name of the sport in Australia, and it would cause confusion related to Australian football. The common usage is soccer, and I would argue the Australian Football League has the better claim on the name football in an All Australian context, because the major professional league does not use it. Association football is 100% not the default name and lacks common usage. Trove pulls up 9,000 book results for soccer. The Australian libraries catalog using soccer, not football to refer to this particular football code. --LauraHale (talk) 08:37, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: The evidence that resulted in the move to soccer is no longer relevant, and has been superseded. You would be incorrect that the AFL has any claim on 'football' in any Australian context. That sport is only widely popular in one state, with minor pockets of support in the others. It also has no bearing on this discussion, because AFL already has it's own specific names which this request has nothing to do with it. Additionally, this is not a discussion about past use of the term. It is about current use of the term Football. As shown above, the media now uses Football as opposed to soccer, and as such the only evidence that stopped the sport being named Football on wikipedia is no longer relevant. Macktheknifeau (talk) 08:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Didn't notice earlier that laughable claim that Australian football only has minor pockets of support outside Victoria. That sort of ignorance seriously damages your case. Please see Barassi Line. HiLo48 (talk) 09:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment - just wondering if centralised request for comment might be more appropriate so that we can get some consistency across the board, whatever we end up calling the game. As it stands, usage for Australian topics varies between football, association football, soccer, football (soccer), football/soccer and association football (soccer). Hack (talk) 09:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Macktheknifeau - I suspect you have accessed the online version of the Melbourne Herald Sun. Have you looked at a print copy? The online versions of all the Murdoch (News Limited) papers are clones of one another, using virtually identical articles. News Limited is based in Sydney. I cannot believe that the print version of the Herald Sun would use football to refer to the game everyone in Melbourne calls soccer, when it also carries masses of content on Australian football, called exclusively football by its fans. It simply wouldn't work. The same applies to the Adelaide Advertiser (or whatever it's called now). Murdoch again. The point made in the earlier thread about where media outlets are headquartered is still completely relevant, as is everything else there. Oh, and couldn't you have come up with a better name for this thread? Making it identical to the earlier one isn't wise. HiLo48 (talk) 09:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment - Although I'm in Canberra I regularly read the printed Herald Sun during my lunch hour at work (I find it less offensive than the Daily Telegraph). I just grabbed one from under my sink and can confirm (surprise surprise) that the pages dedicated to the round ball game do have the header "Soccer". Would be happy to scan a copy if need be. Jevansen (talk) 10:42, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I checked the Monday print edition of the Herald Sun today too, after the weekend. All the round ball results, domestic Australian, but also including English Premier League and Scottish Premier League, were under the heading Soccer. User talk:Macktheknifeau WAS deceived by Murdoch's lazy online approach. Interestingly though, that editor hasn't posted since his first frantic (and now mostly disproven) claims two days ago. HiLo48 (talk) 12:18, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Football in Australia (note you originally suggested Football In Australia which is wrong by capitalisation) is already a very well thought out and descriptive article that covers the topics as a whole. To overwrite that with a small proportion of the article is simply not appropriate. So the resulting possible names are Soccer in Australia, Association football in Australia, Football (soccer) in Australia or similar. Of these, soccer is the most appropriate and unambiguous. And as for your comment of "That sport is only widely popular in one state, with minor pockets of support in the others" is quite laughable to anyone who has spent any time at all in SA, WA or Tasmania. The-Pope (talk) 09:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

LOL. I just called it laughable up above too! Cos it is. HiLo48 (talk) 09:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

As I suspected, no-one has any actual counters to the points made in the opening request, just attacking the sport and pro-aFL editors who can't see past the Melbourne AFL bubble. As for the "Football in Australia" pre-existing article, the solution is clear. Split off the article into "XYZ in Australia", such as Rugby League in Australia, Rugby Union in Australia & AFL in Australia, assuming there already aren't pages named like that. It makes no sense to keep the only sport with a legitimate claim to being simply "Football" away from it's own rightful name, just because the AFL project editors think so. Macktheknifeau (talk) 10:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Cut the crap. Or is it really just ignorance? Your ignorance about Aussie Rules being a Melbourne only thing has been exposed. Australian football was codified and called football before association football had been codified in England. That surely gives it "a legitimate claim to being simply Football". And I DID point out the problem with your media analysis. It's the same as existed when the first thread happened. Sydney-centrism. Have you checked the print version of the Hun yet?

Oh, and some more ignorance on your part... You claim "The A-League is made up of teams that use the name "Football Club"". It's not. Those names that go near it use "FC". It doesn't stand for Football Club. It doesn't stand for anything. The registered names just say "... FC". Have a think why? Soccer DOES NOT own the name football. You lose again. HiLo48 (talk) 10:54, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to suggest that FC doesn't stand for Football Club? Incredible the lengths the AFL project leaders will go to win their arguments. What else is FC supposed to stand for then? That is one of the most desperate, completely incorrect statements I've ever read. FC stands for Football Club. To suggest otherwise is insane, but typical of pro-AFL editors here. Again the Melbourne AFL bubble strikes again. Macktheknifeau (talk) 11:34, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

You didn't look any of them up, did you? They've fooled you. They're officially called FC, not "football club". Go have a look now. HiLo48 (talk) 12:29, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

You're delusional if you think FC refers to anything other than Football Club. Macktheknifeau (talk) 13:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The majority of Australian rules football clubs are called "XXX Football Club" too, so this point if anything shows that the usage of the word "football" in Australia is ambiguous, and no single code should have their article at Football in Australia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The-Pope (talk • contribs) 18:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

True. Unless Macktheknifeau is going down to the Ainslie Football Club and the Melbourne Football Club and the Richmond Football Club and telling Australia's top level football clubs to change the name because it does not suit soccer fans. I'd like evidence to support these three football clubs, which are reasonably well known, actually being confused for soccer clubs because of the name not being common usage. --LauraHale (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Soccer remains the common-use name for the code in Australia. Football in Australia is already in use. Flat Out let's discuss it 10:33, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose this is neither rugby nor Australian-rules so it is not football. Further the target is already a different article and much better one than this one for football. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 11:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are four different codes of "football" played in mainstream Australia. Hence, Football in Australia can only ever serve to disambiguate these four codes. WWGB (talk) 11:38, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Football is the round ball game, don't know how AFL can try and claim football to be there main name when (soccer)football has been known by this term.Only America label round ball game as soccer due to the fact of dominance by the financially superior NFL.AFL is Aussie rules,NRL is rugby league and A-league is Football. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.91.55.24 (talk) 11:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment All of the four codes use the term Football that is why the article Football in Australia exists. Also, you are confusing codes with competition namesFlat Out let's discuss it 12:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Please note. Interesting tweet just went out from whoever runs the @WestSydney account. Wouldn't be you by any chance Mack?

AFL stooges on wikipedia once again trying to force their old terms on us. Any Wiki editors should look at this (link provided to this talk page)

Have done a screenshot in case it's removed. Jevansen (talk) 12:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment - a user called mack is a writer on westsydneyfootball.com, the website attached to that Twitter handle. Hack (talk) 12:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh look, to borrow a phrase, the AFL supporters are playing the man not the ball. Still nothing to go against my evidence that has shown the original 2011 decision is now obsolete and the vast majority of media sources now use football and thus Football in Australia should be use for Football and not a 'disambiguation' style page. I didn't realise it was illegal to disseminate a discussion. Considering how many AFL supporters have administrative powers, and how forceful the AFL project is in suppressing viewpoints that don't agree with the Melbourne AFL Thought Bubble, why wouldn't I try to raise wider support, especially since this discussion is already being railroaded by AFL project users in order to try and stop legitimate discussion of the fact their viewpoint is now obsolete and the word Football is the common name. Macktheknifeau (talk) 13:50, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Suggest you have a read of Misplaced Pages:Canvassing. Jevansen (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• When I say football I refer to nothing but the game with the round ball. However, Football in Australia should clearly be a disambiguation page. I would support a move to Football (soccer) in Australia or Association football in Australia, as this page used to be known by, but unfortunately I don't have hours to spend trying to convince people of this. There was a proposed policy on the topic which I wrote many years ago, if someone can be bothered finding it! -- Chuq (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Association football in Australia is the name of Aussie rules in several parts of Australia, specifically to differentiate it from the professional Australian Football League. The disambiguation for Association football in Australia would thus include links to both soccer and amateur football (Aussie rules)? --LauraHale (talk) 19:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Whaaaat? I have never heard of that! What is the logic in that? The conspiracy theorist in me says it is just the AFL trying to cause confusion and prevent the round ball game from using "Association football". -- Chuq (talk) 22:09, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
      • I'm not familiar with current usage of Association like that, but if Laura says it's true there's a fair chance it is. She is one of our more objective, independent and knowledgeable writers on all sport across all of Australia. What I do know is that from its inception in the 1877 until it was usurped by the Victorian Football League around 1900, the Victorian Football Association was the premier Australian football competition in Victoria. It remained in operation as a separate Australian football competition until 2000. HiLo48 (talk) 00:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
        • I'm aware of Laura's extensive work in this area, and certainly wasn't suggesting she was wrong, just astonished that whoever started using it in that way thought it was a good idea. -- Chuq (talk) 00:12, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
• I think egos are taking over on this topic. We must look at this objectively, those not prepare to do so should remove themselves from this discussion.--2nyte (talk) 13:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Football in Australia is quite correctly an overview article about the various football codes played in Australia, including soccer, while "soccer" remains the common name for association football, the fans of which seem to believe that the game owns the word "football", which is quite ridiculous. Soccer is but one of several codes that all have the right to call themselves "football". We need to disambiguate between the various codes, not give ownership of a common word to any one game. The use of Football in Australia as an overview article is consistent with the use of Football as an overview article addressing the many different types of football that have existed. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Soccer in Australia → Association football in Australia – As per:

Association football in the Australian Capital Territory

Association football in New South Wales

Association football in Queensland

Association football in South Australia

Association football in Tasmania

Association football in Victoria

Association football in Western Australia

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. MicroX (talk) 17:38, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Nobody in Australia actually calls the game Association football. Those articles existed before the previous move request, but it was agreed in the interests of goodwill and avoiding confrontation that they would not have their names changed immediately after that request reached the decision to change to using soccer for Australian articles. The logical thing to do is to change them all to Soccer in X for consistency with each other and consistency with common name, but there is no need to rush. HiLo48 (talk) 17:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

We should start renaming those articles as soon as possible to use soccer. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 23:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

According to Names for association football there is no country in the world that actually calls the game Association football. With that in mind may articles relating to the sport use the name 'Association football', including Association football in Poland, Association football in Japan, Association football in Honduras, Association football in Jamaica, Association football in Barbados, Association football in Dominica, Association football in Anguilla, Association football in Curaçao, Association football in Panama, and at least 15 more. The only articles using Soccer are Soccer in the United States and Soccer in Canada, coincidently those are the only two countries in the world where the governing body of the sport uses 'Soccer' rather than 'Football' in its name (United States Soccer Federation, Canadian Soccer Association). Every other article relating to the sport uses Football. As can be seen throughout this Talk page, may in Australia do not recognise the sport as Soccer, so why must it be forced. I do agree that in Australia football refers to may codes and should not be reserved for just one. But can we just settle this once and for all and compromise with the the name Association football, like so many other articles. --2nyte (talk) 02:46, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

That's a diplomatic suggestion, but there's a problem. At least some (I'd suggest many) of our readers won't know what Association football is. (I didn't until after I began editing here.) I don't know how much of a problem that is for articles relating to the sport in other countries, but it would definitely be a problem in Australia. Unfortunately for the game's fans, the name football is at a minimum ambiguous and, on the Aussie Rules side of the Barassi Line, just plain confusing. So if we use Association football, it really needs to be written Association football (soccer). Why not just use the simpler, unambiguous soccer? HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think the obvious compromise is Football (soccer). Flat Out let's discuss it 03:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I can't see why Association football would need to be written as Association football (soccer). Similarly, the title Australia national association football team in comparison to Australia national association football (soccer) team. We can make it perfectly clear to the reader which sport the article is about; that is by: Association football (commonly know as football or soccer). --2nyte (talk) 03:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

What? Every time we write Association football? If we don't do it every time, there will be confused readers, as I was once. We don't want that. HiLo48 (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I meant in the opening line of the Association football in Australia article we can specifically state 'Association football (commonly know as football or soccer)'.--2nyte (talk) 04:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's a silly question - Most people don't know that association football is soccer, but how many people don't know what soccer is? --AussieLegend (✉) 03:58, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll play the straight man. EVERYBODY knows what soccer is. HiLo48 (talk) 04:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

So why do we need to write "association football (soccer)" or "football (soccer)"? Such disambiguation is unnecessary, and a little confusing. All we need to write is "soccer" because, as my good friend Abbott said, EVERYBODY knows what soccer is. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Seems an excellent idea. HiLo48 (talk) 05:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems an excellent idea in theory, and probably seems fine on the face of it to those who are not involved with the sport - but the term has grown a rather negative association over the years. Hence the change of most official names of involved businesses, events and organisations to "football". Please read Johnny Warren's Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters if you want the long version. -- Chuq (talk) 06:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I can see how "wogball" might have negative connotations but I really don't understand how something that is simply a "shortened form of 'association football'" can be seen negatively. Soccer fans should be more concerned about the negative connotations of what seems to be a puerile attempt to take ownership of the word "football" is seen by those outside the sport. (For the record I far prefer soccer to that stuff they rabidly playwatch down in Vicwegia) That said, we don't cater to personal preferences here. We name articles according to the WP:COMMONNAME and there's no doubt that the common name in Australia is "soccer", not "association football", "association football (soccer)", "football (soccer)" etc. Regardless, this article clearly does not belong at Football in Australia. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Take a look through Trove for Wogball. Most of the references are older than 2010, and most of the usage comes from inside the soccer community as how the sport used to be viewed and used to be stigmatized. These and other references to wogball and soccer on trove make clear there is no large scale association between the two terms now. It further supports the use of soccer for this article. As further evidence for the use of soccer SBS has 2050 uses of it. SBS is really important considering they air a lot of international matches. 143 results for "association football". You'd actually have a better case using "World Game", which is how SBS markers it over Association football where it has 5930 uses. Photos, newspapers, periodicals, websites and every category except books imply not SOCCER for football default. The books that appear for football like this one which is my first book result have the subject heading of soccer, not football. This further suggests football is not the default name because while international books on the sport are imported with those titles, librarians do not treat them that way domestically. If you look for biographies on trove about football players, what do you get? Rugby league, rugby union, AFL, gridiron, but not soccer on the first page of results. It would be really nice to get some actual numbers to support common name of football. --LauraHale (talk) 11:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

The Barassi Line, the geographical divide between Rugby League and Aussie Rules territory, is relevant here. The ideologues in the Football Federation of Australia are Sydney based, on the League side of the Barassi Line. For them to think that they could steal the use of the word football from Aussie Rules on the other side of that line showed either massive optimism or massive ignorance. It's simply not going to happen any time soon. Most soccer clubs in Aussie rules territory are still called soccer clubs, in many cases for the obvious reason that the town or suburb they're from already has a "football club", playing Aussie Rules. User:Macktheknifeau is from Sydney, and has already shown massive ignorance about Aussie Rules. I don't know everything about soccer and League in Sydney either, but I don't claim to, nor do I need to. Here we are looking at the whole of Australia (even if the FFA bosses didn't). We cannot use football for the round ball game. Half the country hardly uses that name for the game at all. "Soccer" works for everybody and is the Australia wide common name. As for it having "a rather negative association", maybe that's a Sydney thing too. No negativity about it here. HiLo48 (talk) 07:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I completely disagree with User:HiLo48. You claim Football Federation Australia is stealing "the use of the word football from Aussie Rules" and that Australia is supposedly split into "Aussie rules territory" and Rugby League territory. You claim User:Macktheknifeau has "shown massive ignorance". I claim you have shown the exact same ignorance from these statements. The word football applies to many clubs, many codes, in may locations. The notion of territory does not exist. Brisbane Lions (ALF), Greater Western Sydney (AFL), Sydney Swans (AFL), Melbourne Storm (League), Melbourne Victory (Football), Northcote City (Football), South Melbourne (Football). The Barassi Line is a 1970's completely fictional thing. Basketball, netball, cricket, rugby, Australian rules football, and football are all sports which are competed and supported across the whole of Australia. STOP YOUR IGNORANCE and acknowledge that this is not the 1970's. The country we now live in supports many codes and we as Wiki editors should do the same and support each and every sport equally. --2nyte (talk) 07:56, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to disagree, but I really don't think you understood what I wrote. Nor do the factual points you have made contradict what I wrote. And I feel that by arguing for the name soccer for the round ball game, a name I don't see as a negative one, I am being completely supportive. Why you think that I'm not supporting the game is beyond me. It's simply the name we're discussing, not the game. HiLo48 (talk) 08:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I do disagree with you, and I couldn't care less if you support the game or not. All I care about is that fair and just decisions are made and I feel your personal opinions are blinding your judgment on the matter.--2nyte (talk) 08:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

What personal opinions are you referring to? HiLo48 (talk) 09:07, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Your opinions (from what I can understand) are that football is inferior to AFL, and that AFL somehow owns the word 'football'. How do I come to this conclusion? Your recent edit on Western Sydney Wanderers FC has the summary "I think the AFL would be the premier football competition (in Australia)". Your recent edit on A-League (football to association football) has the summary "We could even change it to "soccer", but not plain "football"". Your recent edit on Parramatta Stadium (football to soccer) has the summary "Corrected "football" name to "soccer"". Why is it you think "football" can't be used or that it's not "correct". Do you think the reader will not understand the context of football in articles/section specific to the round ball game? My annoyance is the same as User:Macktheknifeau. I am a regular Wiki editor on football related articles and all the time the word football is changed to football (soccer) or soccer and most of the time this change is done by WikiProject Australian rules football members. This change is not necessary, in Australia it's not incorrect to call the round ball game 'football'. So why must it continuously be changed when the governing body is called Football Federation Australia, when the team is called Football Club? Even if we don't agree to rename this article, I still want to be able to call the round ball game football without you or another user changing it because of your opinion that AFL is dominant or that AFL reserves the right of name.--2nyte (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

"football is inferior to AFL" - Since AFL is football, how can football be inferior to football? This, of course, leads to......

"I still want to be able to call the round ball game football without you or another user changing it" - And there's the problem. Because it isn't the only code that is football, although it seems to want to own the word, calling the round ball game "football" is ambiguous, which is why "soccer" is a better word. Everyone knows what you're talking about. You don't need disambiguation when you call it soccer and, since we only disambiguate when necessary, we should be calling it soccer. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

2nyte - YOU can call the game "football" as much as you like in private conversation, although I'd be careful about using that name if you ever come to Melbourne or Adelaide or Perth, etc. You WILL be misunderstood. There are four professional games in Australia called "football" by at least some of their fans, plus at least two more codes played at amateur level. Given that they all have individual, unique names, to insist that one of them must be called just "football" here makes no sense. I don't claim that any one of the sports is better than the other, but there's no doubt that AFL is the most successful at the moment by almost all measures. To say that a soccer club plays in the premier football competition in Australia is just silly. And you have badly misrepresented me just above. I can ignore it this time, but please pay more attention to my carefully chosen words in future. HiLo48 (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

""football is inferior to AFL" - Since AFL is football, how can football be inferior to football?" - I would assume a little bit of common sense is needed. The sport you call soccer I have called football for my whole life.

I do not want to own the word "football", I only wish to apply to the round ball game as you do with AFL and as others do to rugby league and rugby union. Is that not allowed by you or by others? You say it is ambiguous. Yes, it may be when referring to more than one sport. But when an article is only concerning the one sport, can it not be used then. In the Western Sydney Wanderers FC article, the A-League article, the Football Federation Australia article, will anyone find ambiguity in the word football? Will one think these articles are referring to AFL? Again, I would assume a little bit of common sense is needed.--2nyte (talk) 11:58, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I don't apply football to any of the major codes, I prefer to call them by their unambiguous names - soccer, rugby league, rugby union and AFL. The only time I use "football" is when I'm referring to touch football. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

If you don't apply football to AFL why would you say "AFL is football"? And could you please reply to the second part of my response where I spoke of ambiguity in the word football.--2nyte (talk) 12:20, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment This thread should be closed now. User:Macktheknifeau came here claiming he had new evidence. That evidence has been shown to be wrong. (Print copies of the Herald Sun still use "soccer".) He has made several other wrong, often ridiculous claims (AFL only popular in Victoria, etc) and has resorted to calling an alleged group of AFL supporters names. It is wasting editors' time with an ideological campaign that has no hope of success. HiLo48 (talk) 17:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment @Macktheknifeau: Please retract the comments where you refer to those of us who collectively oppose this move as AFL stooges. I am not, nor shall I ever be, an AFL stooge. I am a PhD student covering Australian sport. I have researched the topic extensively. I have talked to people in multiple football codes, including soccer people on at least three occasions. I am not putting forth any AFL agenda. If you have evidence of my being a stooge, others being stooges of the AFL or of canvassing, please post it now or retract. --LauraHale (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I endorse LauraHale's request and direct Macktheknifeau to the first sentence of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, which says "Comment on content, not on the contributor". This applies whether you address one editor, or many. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:49, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - what you call the game seems to be something of a shibboleth. A lot of A-League supporters seem to call the game football while others generally use football to refer to the most popular version of football in the area. I don't appreciate being labelled an AFL stooge - while I have edited AFL topics, the large majority of my contributions have been soccer-related. Hack (talk) 00:24, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, depending on where you live in Australia, "football" is either rugby league or Australian Rules. Only diehard fans of the round-ball game call it "football" in this country. WP:COMMONNAME. Lankiveil 04:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support altho' I realise that it's futile. Silent Billy (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Football in Australia, Support Football (soccer) in Australia, Strongly Oppose Soccer in Australia - I really don't see what impact this has on partisan AFL, NRL, etc editors. The sport is not called "Soccer" in Australia. Major news outlets have "Football" sections for football news, the governing body is called Football Federation Australia, clubs in the A-League use the abbreviation "FC" in their names, which stands for "Football Club". It's like Rugby Union fans asking Rugby League to discontinue using the term Rugby because the term "Rugby" on it's own means Union in Australia. This is a bloody petty and childish debate perpetuated by partisan AFL and/or NRL fans who don't like football being referred to as such becuse, in my humble opinion, it implies that the game is moving forward. As a side note, AFL fans should be grateful for Football, the failed World Cup bid has pumped millions of dollars that they would never have seen otherwise into upgrading their stadiums. Ck786 (talk) 21:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

1. I'm not aware of any AFL stadium upgrades promised as part of the World Cup bid that actually occurred, rather than just being promises. 2. Don't call other editors names, such as "partisan AFL and/or NRL fans who don't like football." 3. The major Victorian newspapers, at least, both use Soccer to name the sport. I suspect the same is true for Adelaide, Perth, Darwin and Hobart. 4. The FC might informally stand for Football Club, but not officially. You can check the ASIC website to confirm this. HiLo48 (talk) 03:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Football in Australia. Target is a redundant article that should be merged with Sport in Australia. Secondly, "Soccer" is a slang term/abbreviation and thus should not be used for an article title. Finally, supporters of the term "Soccer" who are mainly AFL fans should note that, the term "football" is not used in any way to talk about the game of AFL outside of Victoria. Should we remove the use of "football" from all AFL articles to "Aussie Rules"/"AFL"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.218.26 (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• You're sounding a lot like User:Macktheknifeau, with your similar attack on editors opposing the move. Bidgee (talk) 03:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• And please note the name of the West Australian Football League. That is but one of many examples I could show you of how wrong you are when you say "the term "football" is not used in any way to talk about the game of AFL outside of Victoria". HiLo48 (talk) 03:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Could you please explain how Football in Australia is a redundant article? --AussieLegend (✉) 04:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• It is the opinion of some that the Football in Australia article has no use as is. Therefor, it is unnecessary.--2nyte (talk) 04:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• ROTFLMAO HiLo48 (talk) 05:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Comment "football" is the slang term here. It is slang for "association football", "rugby football", "Australian-rules football", etc. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:50, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as per the other opposes above, per WP:COMMONNAME, soccer is the common name for association football. Bidgee (talk) 03:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Wiki is not set in stone. WP:COMMONNAME can be dismissed in this circumstance, as it is in the Association football article. I assume WP:COMMONNAME would suggest "Football" to be the 'correct' title for the Association football article, but for the sake of neutrality a compromise was made. Again, just because "Soccer" is supposedly the common term, it doesn't mean it should be used as default.--2nyte (talk) 04:27, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
    • No, it's not set in stone, but you would need a very good reason to bypass that policy. The fact the you "would suggest Football to be the correct title..." is not good enough reason. Many have given you reasons why using football on Misplaced Pages for just one of the multifarious football codes would be silly and confusing. You don't seem willing to engage in the reasons I and many others have given, as I just did with yours. Do give it a try. Let's try a simple reason from me. Despite inaccurate statements to the contrary made here by some soccer fans, there is absolutely no doubt that "football" is the common name for Aussie Rules for around half of Australia's population. So how can it possibly make sense to use that name for soccer in an article about the whole of Australia? HiLo48 (talk) 05:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
      • You seem to have misquoted me. I only assumed that WP:COMMONNAME would suggest "Football" to be the 'correct' title, I did not suggest it myself. I in fact previously support Soccer in Australia be moved to Association football in Australia, not Football in Australia.--2nyte (talk) 07:17, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Sorry. I did have the impression that you were one of those arguing for the name football for the round ball game. My apologies. Let my post stand as one addressed to them. I acknowledge that Association football seems spread all over Misplaced Pages as some sort of neutral name, but it's something I don't understand. It's not the common name anywhere. Nobody in Australia ever calls the game Association football. Can you explain, seriously and non-emotionally, what's wrong with soccer? It IS the unambiguous common name that works for all of Australia, and that is supposed be our goal here. And if your response includes anything about it being insulting, offensive or whatever, please provide some sourcing for the claim. I have never heard the name soccer used in a negative way, ever, anywhere. HiLo48 (talk) 07:34, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
          • And such a comment should avoid any reference to soccer = wogball = offensiveness. we have already established through references this usage has fallen out of use, and the current use is mostly done by soccer fans explaining the history of the sport and why it it not the most popular football code in the country. --LauraHale (talk) 08:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment The aggressive posts by soccer supporters about other football codes, AFL in particular, and attacks against other editors based on the mistaken belief that they are AFL supporters, are highly inappropriate and do nothing to encourage support for the move proposal. Please stick to the facts, one of which is that not everyone here supports AFL. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:16, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose This is absurd. It has to be left as it is (regardless of the favours bestowed on soccer's governing body by some media outlets). It can go to "Association football in Australia" if it likes, even though this would contradict the prevalent common usage of 'soccer' among Australians, but "Football in Australia"? Please.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

• C-Class football articles
• High-importance football articles
• C-Class soccer in Australia articles
• High-importance soccer in Australia articles
• Soccer in Australia task force articles
• WikiProject Football articles
• C-Class Australia articles
• High-importance Australia articles
• WikiProject Australia articles
• Requested moves