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Revision as of 13:48, 31 August 2013 editRet.Prof (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers15,357 edits UPDATE← Previous edit Revision as of 13:08, 8 September 2013 edit undoRet.Prof (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers15,357 edits I am leaving Misplaced Pages for an indefinite period of timeNext edit →
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{{User degree in| History - BA }}
{{User degree in| Biblical Scholarship - M.Div}}
{{User degree in| Law - LL.B }}


A number of months ago while trying to update articles re the 'Historical Jesus' I stepped into a problem area and have come under serious attack.
.
* '''Using self-published sources:''' It was alleged that I was in breach of WP policy by using self-published sources. I recused myself from editing. In support of his allegation was the following After waiting a reasonable time, I resumed editing.
* '''Licensing Breach, Copying, Undo Consensus:''' Allegations of were raised against me. I stepped back from editing until Bureaucrat Nihonjoe intervened, pointing out that the edit history had been moved and I was . I resumed editing.
* '''Rude and disruptive behavior:''' Allegations of rude and disruptive behavior have been made against me. Again I stopped editing. However, when my edit history was examined by others, no edits could be found to support the allegations against me.
These consistent attacks against me have undermined my credibility and all but destroyed my reputation at Misplaced Pages. It should be noted that I am not the first person to be discredited in such a way. I have voluntarily chosen to step back from Misplaced Pages.








='''NPOV'''=
'''''I believe that it is VERY IMPORTANT that all articles at Misplaced Pages be written from a NPOV.''''' The ] articles found in the following reference books fairly present both sides of the Papias debate.
* (2010) p 301,
* (2008) p 256,
*, (2012) p 1815,
* (1990) p 558,
* (2013) p 891,
*
** See also the following as well as online sources such as


They contain the following:
{{quotation|'''Papias (b. 63 A.D.)''' Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (en Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability.}}




.




All these sources debate the TRUSTWORTHINESS of this testimony explaining (1) why some scholars doubt the existence of a ''Hebrew Gospel''.


{{cot|1=List by Tgeorgescu OPPOSE }}
<div align="center" style="width: 100%; background-color: #8DBAFE; color: black; font-size: 0.90em; border: 2px solid #000080; padding: 3px; font-weight: bold; text-align: center;"> <br><p align="center"><b><font size="6" face="Arial">Welcome to the UserPage of
* E P Sanders, ''The Historical Figure of Jesus'', (Penguin, 1995) page 63 - 64.
Retired Professor<br><center><font size = "3">'''</center>
* Bart D. Ehrman (2000:43) ''The New Testament: a historical introduction to early Christian writings.'' Oxford University Press.
<center><small>'''''(Note: Please do not edit this page.)'''''</small></center><br>
* Geoffrey W. Bromiley (1995:287) '''' MATTHEW, GOSPEL ACCORDING TO. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. Quote: „Matthew, like the other three Gospels is an anonymous document.”
</font>
* Donald Senior, Paul J. Achtemeier, Robert J. Karris (2002:328) '''' Paulist Press.
</b> </center>
* Keith Fullerton Nickle (2001:43) '''' Westminster John Knox Press.
</div>
* Ben Witherington (2004:44) '''' InterVarsity Press.
.
* F.F. Bruce (1994:1) '''' Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing.
* Patrick J. Flannagan (1997:16) '''' Paulist Press
{{cob}}


and (2) why others argue Papias was correct and it is true that the apostle Matthew compiled the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew dialect.
.
<div align="center" style="width: 100%; background-color: #8DBAFE; color: green; font-size: 0.90em; border: 2px solid #000080; padding: 3px; font-weight: bold; text-align: center;"> <br><p align="center"><b><font size="6" face="Arial">My main area of expertise is Biblical Scholarship <br><center><font size = "3">'''</center>
<center><small></small></center><br>
</font>
</b> </center>
</div>
.


{{cot|1=List by Ret.Prof SUPPORT}}


*
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*
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|- style="vertical-align: top;" bgcolor="#CCDDEE"
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| Most long-suffering of mortals (See talk page)
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<br>


*
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{| cellspacing="0" style="width:238px;background:#FFEEEE"
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| style="font-size:8pt;padding:4pt;line-height:1.25em" |This user prefers ] on the talkpage rather than engaging in an ].
|}</div>


*
“You can't have grudges against people who criticize you in good-faith.”
—]


*
==About me==
A number of months ago while working though the sources re the 'Historical Jesus' I stepped into a problem area and have come under serious attack.
* '''Using self published sources:''' It was alleged that I was in breach of WP policy by using using self published sources. I recused myself from editing. In support of his allegation was the following After waiting a reasonable time, I resumed editing.
* '''Licensing Breach, Copying, Undo Consensus:''' Allegations of were raised against me. I stepped back from editing until Bureaucrat Nihonjoe intervened, pointing out that the edit history had been moved and I was . I resumed editing.
* '''Rude and disruptive behavior:''' Allegations of rude and disruptive behavior have been made against me. Again I stopped editing. However, when my edit history was examined by others, no edits could be found to support the allegations against me. (See my talk page)
These consistent attacks against me have undermined my credibility and all but destroyed my reputation at Misplaced Pages. It should be noted that I am not the first person to be discredited in such a way. Rather than withdraw from Misplaced Pages I have chosen to:
# '''Assume good faith''' - I have assumed good faith and stepped back from editing.
# '''Research Topic''' I have done further research and revised my position.
# '''Resume editing''' - I have resumed editing. ] I hope to find common ground and clearly define our areas of disagreement.
# '''Mediation''' - In a few months I will request mediation in working through conflict areas.
# '''Arbitration''' - Finally, if any areas of conflict remain, I will suggest Arbitration.


*
==My revised understanding of the Conflict==

{{quotation|'''Papias (b. 63 A.D.)''' Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (en Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability.}}
*
The above quote seems to be the essence of the conflict. Several Biblical scholars now argue in favour of an early ''Hebrew Gospel'' composed by Matthew distinct from the ].

*

*

*

*

*


=The New scholarship=


Taken from Taken from
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Taken from Taken from
*And this is what he says about Matthew: “And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted them to the best of his ability. *And this is what he says about Matthew: “And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted them to the best of his ability.
*This is not eyewitness testimony to the life of Jesus, but it is getting very close to that. Where conservative scholars go astray is in thinking that Papias gives us reliable information about the origins of our Gospels of Matthew and Mark. The problem is that even though he “knows” that there was an account of Jesus's life written by Mark and a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to the books that we call Mark and Matthew. In fact, what he says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels. He appears to be referring to other writings, and only later did Christians (wrongly) assume that he was referring to the two books that eventually came to be included in Scripture. This then is testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly to the disciples of Jesus themselves. (quote from pp 100-101) *This is not eyewitness testimony to the life of Jesus, but it is getting very close to that. Where conservative scholars go astray is in thinking that Papias gives us reliable information about the origins of our Gospels of Matthew and Mark. The problem is that even though he “knows” that there was an account of Jesus's life written by Mark and a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to the books that we call Mark and Matthew. In fact, what he says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels. He appears to be referring to other writings, and only later did Christians (wrongly) assume that he was referring to the two books that eventually came to be included in Scripture. This then is testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly to the disciples of Jesus themselves. (quote from pp 100-101)
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Taken from Taken from
*Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down in Aramaic and everyone 'translated/interpreted (hērmēneusen)' them as well as they were able. There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. It also explains the lack of common order, as well as the inadequate translations of some passages into Greek. (quote from p 86) *Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down in Aramaic and everyone 'translated/interpreted (hērmēneusen)' them as well as they were able. There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. It also explains the lack of common order, as well as the inadequate translations of some passages into Greek. (quote from p 86)
*It follows that this is what Papias meant! It is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language, but each (person) translated/ interpreted them as he was able.' Moreover, the Greek word logia, which I have translated 'sayings/oracles', has a somewhat broader range of meaning than this, and could well be used of collections which consisted mostly, but not entirely, of sayings. It would not however have been a sensible word to use of the whole Gospel of Matthew.It was later Church Fathers who confused Matthew's collections of sayings of Jesus with our Greek Gospel of Matthew. (quote from p 87) *It follows that this is what Papias meant! It is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language, but each (person) translated/ interpreted them as he was able.' Moreover, the Greek word logia, which I have translated 'sayings/oracles', has a somewhat broader range of meaning than this, and could well be used of collections which consisted mostly, but not entirely, of sayings. It would not however have been a sensible word to use of the whole Gospel of Matthew. It was later Church Fathers who confused Matthew's collections of sayings of Jesus with our Greek Gospel of Matthew. (quote from p 87)


It is important to note that these sources are NOT saying that "Matthew's collection sayings in a Hebrew dialect" and the ] are the same work. Indeed there is clear evidence that "Matthew's Hebrew Gospel" was NOT translated into what we call the ]. Casey after studying composite authorship in the period comes to his scholarly conclusion. The is anonymous and is the product of composite authorship of which Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel'' was the . Hence the Gospel of Matthew as Matthew was probably a . Now, it has to be admitted that not everyone agrees. There are still some Christian scholars who believe that the ] is a direct translation of Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel''. On the other extreme are those who believe the ] is a Christian deception as it had nothing to do with Matthew because the ''Hebrew Gospel'' spoken of by Papias never existed. We must compose on an article written from a NPOV.
{{cob}}


It is upon this basis, that Casey after studying composite authorship in the period comes to his scholarly conclusion. The was an anonymous work; the product of composite authorship of which Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel'' was the . Hence the Gospel of Matthew as Matthew was probably a .


It must also be noted that other scholars argue that Papias as preserved by Eusebius is NOT to be trustworthy. '''''Now don't get me wrong. I do not want to remove the scholarship that argues against the 'Hebrew Gospel'. What I want is an article that includes BOTH positions, written from a NPOV.'''''


'''''However, at Misplaced Pages, the material in "support" of Papias is always deleted.''' I believe this is a breach of NPOV. Also, I do not believe that NPOV can be overruled by consensus.'' However, I am aware how unsettling many editors find the new scholarship of the past five years and realize we must go slowly while still trying to keep Misplaced Pages up-to-date.
==Summary of the new scholarship re the Second Temple Period==
In a general sense I think it would be fair to say that there is now a "consensus that Jesus must be understood as a Jew in a Jewish environment." (As to the importance of Aramaic, please see Talk at ].) Over the past ten years the thinking of Biblical scholars has undergone a radical transformation. Many scholars now believe:
# Jesus was a living in a (Sitz im Leban).
# Jesus and later his were active participants in the of the .
# Early Christians, up to the time of the creation of the first Gospels, sustained the Gospel message of Jesus, by sharing the stories of his life and his teachings . This ''Oral Tradition'' remained vibrant until the .
#These 21st C. scholars generally agree that Mark was the first to write down the . They further agree that . However, most modern scholarship agrees that the canonical ] does not appear to be a translation from Hebrew or Aramaic but was composed in Greek. (ie Matthew's ''Hebrew Gospel'' and the ] are two distinct Gospels.)
#Since the publication of the Aramaic Dead Sea Scrolls, and a variety of other Aramaic documents written in the ancient world, this "present generation of scholars have had the opportunity to make massive progress." . We now have a much clearer idea of the " the nature of authorship in Second Temple Judaism. Composite authorship was common, and so was the attribution of documents to the fountainheads of traditions." . As testifies of the Greek Gospel of Matthew which is of composite authorship in the same sense as many ancient Jewish works, such as the books of Isaiah and Jubilees. (See also )

Revision as of 13:08, 8 September 2013


I am stepping back from Misplaced Pages
for an indefinite time


A number of months ago while trying to update articles re the 'Historical Jesus' I stepped into a problem area and have come under serious attack.

These consistent attacks against me have undermined my credibility and all but destroyed my reputation at Misplaced Pages. It should be noted that I am not the first person to be discredited in such a way. I have voluntarily chosen to step back from Misplaced Pages.



NPOV

I believe that it is VERY IMPORTANT that all articles at Misplaced Pages be written from a NPOV. The Gospel of Matthew articles found in the following reference books fairly present both sides of the Papias debate.

They contain the following:

Papias (b. 63 A.D.) Matthew wrote down the sayings of Jesus (logia) in a Hebrew dialect (en Hebraidi dialecto), and everyone translated (hermeneusen) them to the best of their ability.



All these sources debate the TRUSTWORTHINESS of this testimony explaining (1) why some scholars doubt the existence of a Hebrew Gospel.

List by Tgeorgescu OPPOSE

and (2) why others argue Papias was correct and it is true that the apostle Matthew compiled the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew dialect.

List by Ret.Prof SUPPORT

The New scholarship

Taken from David E. Aune (Ed), The Blackwell Companion to The New Testament, John Wiley & Sons, 2010. pp 301 - 303

  • Author and Setting The earliest surviving tradition about Matthew comes from Papias of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (modern Turkey) about 125–50 CE. His views were preserved by the early Christian historian, Eusebius of Caesarea (ca. 260– ca. 339 CE), generally held by modern scholars to be fairly trustworthy. The “Papias tradition” says, “Then Matthew put together the sayings in Matthew the Hebrew dialect and each one translated them as he was able” (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.16). By “Matthew” it is very likely that Papias had in mind Jesus' disciple (Mark 3:18; Matt. 10:3; Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13). In Matthew – and only in Matthew – “Matthew” is identified as “the toll collector” (Matt. 10:3: ), the one previously said to have been sitting at the “toll booth” (Matt. 9:9:) near Capernaum (the northwest corner of the Lake of Galilee). The parallels in Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27 call this toll collector “Levi,” not Matthew, but Levi is not in the disciple lists. Modern scholars usually interpret the Papias tradition to mean that Papias thought that Jesus' disciple Matthew the toll collector had assembled a collection of Jesus' sayings in Hebrew (or Aramaic, cf. John 20:16) and then others translated them. (quote from p 302)


Taken from William Lane Craig & J. P. Moreland (Ed)' The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, John Wiley & Sons, 2009. p 602

  • We encounter a striking and incontestable fact. Virtually every piece of external evidence we have from the first few centuries regarding the authorship and composition of the Gospels concurs that Matthew's Gospel was the first written, that it was written in the Hebrew language...the widespread agreement of early sources on a number of points is remarkable and cannot be brushed aside, particularly since discrepancies among these sources regarding other points strongly suggest that they are not, for the most part, simply copying one another. (quote from p 602)


Taken from Bart D. Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, HarperCollins 2012. pp 98-101

  • And this is what he says about Matthew: “And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted them to the best of his ability.
  • This is not eyewitness testimony to the life of Jesus, but it is getting very close to that. Where conservative scholars go astray is in thinking that Papias gives us reliable information about the origins of our Gospels of Matthew and Mark. The problem is that even though he “knows” that there was an account of Jesus's life written by Mark and a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to the books that we call Mark and Matthew. In fact, what he says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels. He appears to be referring to other writings, and only later did Christians (wrongly) assume that he was referring to the two books that eventually came to be included in Scripture. This then is testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly to the disciples of Jesus themselves. (quote from pp 100-101)


Taken from James R. Edwards, The Hebrew Gospel and the Development of the Synoptic Tradition, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. pp 2-3

  • This is corroborated in Ecclesiastical History 3.39.7 and 14, where Eusebius says that Papias confessed to having received the words of the apostles from their followers. Of course, if John the Elder was in fact John the Apostle — although this seems unlikely — then Papias's testimony comes directly from the apostolic fountainhead. It is in any case very early, within living memory of the apostolic age. Eusebius records Papias's relevant testimony: “Matthew organized the oracles (of Jesus) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as he was able.”8 This testimony does not specifically identify the Hebrew work of Matthew as the Hebrew Gospel, but it is reasonable to equate the two.9 Papias's primary intent seems to have been to emphasize the Hebrew composition of the work. (quote from p 3)
  • The Hebrew Gospel is therefore identified by name in at least two dozen patristic sources. Combined, there are some 75 different attestations to the Hebrew Gospel in ancient Christianity. p 259,
  • Twelve fathers attribute the Hebrew Gospel to the apostle Matthew. p 102
  • Ascription of the Hebrew Gospel to the apostle Matthew is very widespread in the fathers. No father attributes it to anyone other than Matthew p 117


Taken from Maurice Casey, Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010. pp 86-88

  • Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down in Aramaic and everyone 'translated/interpreted (hērmēneusen)' them as well as they were able. There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. It also explains the lack of common order, as well as the inadequate translations of some passages into Greek. (quote from p 86)
  • It follows that this is what Papias meant! It is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language, but each (person) translated/ interpreted them as he was able.' Moreover, the Greek word logia, which I have translated 'sayings/oracles', has a somewhat broader range of meaning than this, and could well be used of collections which consisted mostly, but not entirely, of sayings. It would not however have been a sensible word to use of the whole Gospel of Matthew. It was later Church Fathers who confused Matthew's collections of sayings of Jesus with our Greek Gospel of Matthew. (quote from p 87)

It is important to note that these sources are NOT saying that "Matthew's collection sayings in a Hebrew dialect" and the Gospel of Matthew are the same work. Indeed there is clear evidence that "Matthew's Hebrew Gospel" was NOT translated into what we call the Gospel of Matthew. Casey after studying composite authorship in the Second Temple period comes to his scholarly conclusion. The Gospel of Matthew is anonymous and is the product of composite authorship of which Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was the fountainhead. Hence the name Gospel of Matthew as Matthew was probably a major source. Now, it has to be admitted that not everyone agrees. There are still some Christian scholars who believe that the Gospel of Matthew is a direct translation of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. On the other extreme are those who believe the Gospel of Matthew is a Christian deception as it had nothing to do with Matthew because the Hebrew Gospel spoken of by Papias never existed. We must compose on an article written from a NPOV.


However, at Misplaced Pages, the material in "support" of Papias is always deleted. I believe this is a breach of NPOV. Also, I do not believe that NPOV can be overruled by consensus. However, I am aware how unsettling many editors find the new scholarship of the past five years and realize we must go slowly while still trying to keep Misplaced Pages up-to-date.