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10 September 2013

Deauxma

Deauxma (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Deauxma is a pornographic actress whose article was deleted four times between June 17, 2006 and May 11, 2007. The article was fully protected after the fourth deletion, which is understandable since it was recreated many times back when she did not meet the notability criteria on WP:PORNBIO. It has been over six years since then and I believe that Deauxma's article should be restored. Even though the article was deleted four times, there was only one deletion discussion for it here, which took place seven years ago. The other three deletions appear to be speedy deletions. Deauxma was not notable back then but she is now a popular performer in the adult film industry. WP:PORNBIO states "Has won a well-known and significant industry award, or has been nominated for such an award several times" and Deauxma meets that criteria because she was nominated for two AVN Awards for "MILF/Cougar Performer of the Year" in 2011 and 2013 and an XBIZ Award for "Best Actress - All-Girl Release" in 2013. Not only should this article be restored, but it should also be unlocked. Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support restoration. I didn't see any of the previous versions of the article but the nominations easily satisfy point #1 of WP:PORNBIO. Erpert 16:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
• Aside from the write ups for the awards, do we have any other sourcing about this person that would meet GNG/RS? Thanks. Spartaz 17:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Not all AVN or XBIZ awards are considered significant awards. The guideline also states that nominations and awards in scene related and ensemble catagories are usually excluded. This XBIZ "award" cited actually appears to be a nomination from the link provided - 11 nominees in all and the nomination refers to a single film, Roadqueen 22. Is that a single scene? I'm sure that we are all aware that PORNBIO is more generous about notability then any of GNG, N or BLP and that given a choice between the two DRV tends to err towards the wider community expectation that all BLPs are properly sourced. Is this sourcing likely to be available for consideration at any point? Spartaz 20:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Acting performance awards are a "well-known and significant industry award" and are not considered scene related. WP:PORNBIO Rebecca1990 (talk) 20:25, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
      • Has this been discussed and agreed somewhere? PORNBIO doesn't actually define this. Also, I'm interested in your thoughts on the liklihood of sourcing appearing? Spartaz 20:32, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
        • I don't know, I haven't seen a discussion for the significance of a Best Actress award. But if you would like to start one you can begin a deletion discussion for Pamela Mann and Lauren Brice, two pornographic actresses with no other awards besides Best Actress and neither of them have been inducted into the AVN or XRCO Halls of Fame. And don't forget that Deauxma was also nominated for AVN MILF/Cougar Performer of the Year twice, which is enough to pass WP:PORNBIO, even without the Best Actress nomination from XBIZ. I am also working on Deauxma's article in my sandbox. Rebecca1990 (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - "This XBIZ 'award' cited actually appears to be a nomination from the link provided - 11 nominees in all and the nomination refers to a single film, Roadqueen 22. Is that a single scene?" A "Best Actress" award is pretty much the definition of "a well-known and significant industry award" as it relates to PORNBIO. The "MILF/Cougar Performer of the Year" awards are, IMHO, debatable as to whether or not they meet the PORNBIO standard. I would say that they probably meet the standard, but you'll get some pushback on that...likely from the usual "I don't like it" anti-porn editors on here. Guy1890 (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose restoration. Despite the obsolete and invalid "PORNBIO", which in this matter lacks consensus (as shown in an extensive discussion last year), these kinds of industry awards do not convey notability. Keep deleted in the absence of truly independent, in-depth biographical coverage, as per WP:Notability (people), which is the only valid and applicable standard here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "...Obsolete and invalid 'PORNBIO'"? The last time I checked, WP:PORNBIO was still a guideline. Erpert 08:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Last time it was extensively discussed, it clearly didn't have consensus, so it isn't one. No matter what tag is on the page. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
      • Erpert is right, PORNBIO is still a guideline. All deletion discussions currently taking place for pornographic actor biography articles listed here are debates about whether the subjects pass PORNBIO or not. Rebecca1990 (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
        • It's tagged as a guideline but there is obviously some dispute about it. If the discussions are solely around PORNBIO for inclusion, then people are missing the point. Go to WP:PORNBIO, scroll to the top and read the whole thing. The primary criteria is defined as still being the GNG, the additional criteria which PORNBIO comes under the section intro states "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included.". Like many secondary criteria it's giving a "rule of thumb" as to if such sources as the GNG require exists, it isn't a substitution for that criteria. --86.5.93.42 (talk) 09:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
      • "Last time it was extensively discussed, it clearly didn't have consensus, so it isn't one." Really? When was that decided? When there's no consensus for what to do with an already established guideline, the guideline is kept, not deleted. If you have evidence of the latter, please direct me to it. Erpert 17:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
        • What did you say? Erpert 17:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
          • There you go I fixed it for you and posted comment in the order they were posted rather than you inserting a comment making it look like I was replying to your comment. No idea what you last comment is supposed to be in response to or what you're having difficulty comprehending --86.5.93.42 (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. Does not satisfy #2 and #3 from WP:PORNBIO. Weak support for criteria #1 does not in my opinion be sufficient for notability. We don't even know her real name. No procedural error in deletion per se, although deletion discussion was very short and long time ago. But no new significant information has surfaced to counter the original decision. jni (talk) 09:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • In a situation like this, simply saying "endorse" makes it difficult to tell which side you're on. Anyway, it doesn't matter if we don't know her real name because per WP:BLP, we can't include it if it hasn't been published in reliable sources. On a side note, it always boggles my mind when admins misinterpret guidelines by making comments like that. Should y'all be clarifying these kinds of things for us? Erpert 17:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
    • "We don't even know her real name." Many of the articles in the Pornography Project don't have actors'/actress' real names, since many of them use stage names instead. Guy1890 (talk) 20:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • (edited my vote for clarity). Erpert, admins certainly don't have 100% understanding of guidelines - reasonable people have different opinions about them quite often. Of course I'm not putting great weight on not knowing her real name or any other single datum, but my point is the less we know WP:BLP-verifiable material about her, less notable she is. I'm endorsing deletion because cannot see improvement in notability since the last AfD. I'm not opposing relisting to AfD, that might be a good idea even. jni (talk) 06:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
• I always dread participating in porn-related discussions because of all the badgering, but with a certain amount of trepidation, here we go: I'm pretty far from being a fan of PORNBIO, but DRV wouldn't normally enforce a six-year-old page protection when a good faith editor wants to write content. Procedurally speaking we probably ought to send it to AfD.—S Marshall T/C 17:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Relist and "unsalt" Deauxma so that a new discussion on the inclusion of an article about her can be had, since the last discussion at AfD apparently took place so long ago when the PORNBIO standard (which is obviously still a valid, but not the only, standard) was likely very different. Guy1890 (talk) 20:15, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. There are many users participating in this discussion who are very misinformed about WP:PORNBIO. I've already addressed the issues with Spartaz's and Fut.Perf.'s comments, now jni, in order to pass PORNBIO, you only need to meet one of the criteria, not all three, because if that were the case the only porn stars with articles on WP would be Jenna Jameson and Ron Jeremy. Now a lot of you keep asking for sources on Deauxma, so I created her article in my sandbox and I'm still working on it. Rebecca1990 (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, oppose unsalting, oppose recreation. There certainly is a lot of misinformation here, mostly from those who want an article recreated. It is simply not true that it has been more than seven years since the most recent discussion; after the main target was salted, the article was recreated as "Deauxmae" and unanimously deleted less than two years ago, when PORNBIO standards were laxer than they are today. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Deauxmae. All but one of the award nominations received by the article subject (in particular, the "MILF" noms) have been found in the past to fail the "well-known/significant" test in PORNBIO (see, for example, the Elexis Monroe DRV just last month and the underlying AFD). The article subject does not have a general "Best Actress" nomination; instead she received a nomination in a downlevel niche category that has never, co far as I can tell been found to meet the current PORNBIO standard for significance. The subject fails the GNG by a wide margin; even Rebecca1990's current sandbox draft does not include a single reliable source for actual biographical information, instead citing a narrow range of press releases, presskit pieces, and such non-RS's as "Orgasm News" and "Barelist" (not to mention "Southern Charms," which actually produces and sells the subject's videos). For more than seven years the performer's fans and publicists have been trying to foist an article on us with nary a shred of reliably sourced biographical content, and that stands as a compelling demonstration of the subject's failure to satisfy our notability requirements. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 04:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • With Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's new information, I agree that Elexis Monroe is comparable. Flatscan (talk) 04:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • "The article subject does not have a general 'Best Actress' nomination"...she has a Best Actress nomination in a girl-on-girl-only film from Girlfriends Films. Either Best Actress nominations mean something (and they certainly do) or they don't. BTW, I am neither a "fan" of this actress nor am I an adult industry "publicist". It's becoming unfortunately very clear to me over time that coming to DRV on Pornography Project-related items is a giant waste of time. Guy1890 (talk) 06:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. Listen Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, 1. Both the seven year old AfD and the one from two years ago are outdated. 2. Most WP users who are active in WikiProject Pornography agree that MILF performer awards and/or nominations from AVN, XBIZ, and XRCO are indeed enough to pass WP:PORNBIO. You seem to be the only one who's going around WP, attempting to degrade the significance of MILF awards in AfD's and DRV's, including Elexis Monroe's DRV. 3. Just because the XBIZ Award nomination for "Best Actress - All-Girl Release" isn't a generic Best Actress award doesn't mean it fails WP:PORNBIO. There was a time when the AVN Awards were divided into separate categories for film and video, "Best Actress - Film" and "Best Actress - Video" for example, and that didn't lower the importance of those awards. And 4. You said that my sandbox draft of Deauxma's article "does not include a single reliable source", even though AVN and XBIZ are among the sources I used, which are considered reliable sources on WP. Rebecca1990 (talk) 07:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)