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Islam: Sunni Islam C‑class Top‑importance

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Merging out redundant content (major proposed restructuring)

I would like to propose some major restructuring to this article for stylistic, aesthetic and practical reasons. As it is, certain sections of the article have become bloated which is unnecessary considering that there are already separate articles devoted to those subjects. I will try to keep my suggestions brief for the sake of discussion:

• The etymology, history, adherents and further reading sections must be kept as is and perhaps even improved upon somewhat; there is really no other place to put that content.
• The section on notes and external links, obviously, shouldn't be touched. Though I would prefer that the section on notes is simply called references.
• The sections for six pillars of iman and sunni view of hadith are excellent, and exactly what the rest of the article should emulate. The sunni view of hadith especially; it merely contains links to the Misplaced Pages articles for the mentioned topics, not overly lengthy paragraphs explaining it.
• The section on school of law and theological traditions are just awful. I say this now with complete honesty, considering that between 12 March 2012 and 13 March 2012 I was the one who personally added most of the references for the madhhabs. In retrospect, it just doesn't belong here.

In short, I would like to take most of the content for the schools of law and put it in the article for madhhabs, which to be frank is neglected. I would also like to take most of the content for the schools of theology and put it in the article for Islamic theology, most of which is already there anyway. The latter section here in this article could mention all major schools in one sentence without the details of where most adherents live and who founded it; the former could be summarized in the same way. It is my hope that implementing these changes will make the article easier to read and provide better categorization for the issues discussed therin. I await the responses of concerned editors. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

In regard to the section in legal schools, even the article for Madhhab would have become bloated with excessive details not directly related to the matter at hand. Keeping that in mind, I performed a partial merge to the articles for each school. I feel that the Sunni Islam article is now less cluttered and focuses on only the most pressing details regarding the schools; readers of Misplaced Pages who wish to know more can simply click on the links for each school and seek more information there. I hope my edits are seen as helpful and non-controversial, and feedback is much needed. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:34, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Self-contradicting lead

The lead to the article seems like it was written by Sufi and Salafi editors both trying to push their opposing points of view, in regard to the third paragraph. It's uncited and ab it overly long, so I think a better choice would be to simply remove the details regarding jurisprudence and leave such information in the appropriate articles. I hope this is acceptable to my fellow editors. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Answer

You still need something about the Sunnis on this page so that the basics of all the different denominations are on one page and could be compared. The Sunnis are the biggest denomination in Islam and even the adherents of their individual schools of thought out number some of the smaller denominations. Therefore you need this data on this page.

I would propose having a table of the main similarities and differences for this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnleeds1 (talk • contribs) 15:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad that I'm not the only one ready to help! This page is about Sunnis, so do you mean something about the differences between Sunnis and Shi'ites here? I think the Arabic version of this article might have something like that. We would need a serious amount of verifiable, reliable sources though, to ensure that nobody's beliefs are misrepresented. Perhaps there are articles here where we could simply borrow such sources? MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

There's no table at Shia Islam and I think it would be inappropriate to have one. It would be almost impossible to construct one that isn't original research. Any comparisons have to be made by reliable sources, we can't do those comparisons ourselves. I'm confused by the statement "You still need something about the Sunnis on this page". This is the page on Sunni Islam. Dougweller (talk) 14:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry ignore my comments. I meant to say have a table of the main similarities and differences between all the different denominations in Islam, on some other page, not on this page. But over the last week, I have done a lot of research. Having gone through a lot of books in the School of Oriental and African Studies SOAS library and on the Internet and lots of Islamic and non Islamic Book shops, now, I am not so sure. Views of the different early jurists including Jafar al-Sadiq whose views most Shia's follow and Imam Abu Hanifa and Malik ibn Anas whose views most Sunnis follow and the other old jurists criss cross like the weaving of a cloth. They all give priority to the Quran and the Hadith of Mohammad over their own views. I have also found it hard to find any actual text, actually written by Jafar al-Sadiq. May be he also wanted people to give priority to the Quran and the Hadith. This also makes it hard to compare the actual views of these imams. Imam Malik ibn Anas wrote the Muwatta therefore his views are easier to assess.

In: Modernist Islam, 1840-1940: A Sourcebook By Charles Kurzman - Page 236

Charles Kurzman puts it down like this:

"As is evident, all of the founders of the four orthodox schools of Islam agreed upon the wrongness of imitation. They engaged in ijtihad and expressed their opinions, but they did not impose upon anybody else by asserting that their opinions had to be accepted. Everyone was free to accept or not accept. Abu Hanifa said, "This is my opinion. If anyone brings a better explanation, I will accept that one." In the same way, when Imam Malik was asked to compel the agents of Harun al-Rashid to act according to the principles put forth in his work al-Muwatta he declined, saying: "The Prophet's companions spread all over different countries, and there are hadiths in every nation that other nations have not heard of." Imam Shafi'i used to forbid his students to follow his words in the presence of hadith, saying, "If the Prophet's words become evident to a person, it is not correct to leave aside the sunna in favour of anybody's word." In the same way, Imam Ahmad rejected the writing down and codifying of the religious rulings he gave. They knew that they might have fallen into error in some of their judgements and stated this clearly. They never introduced their rulings by saying, "Here, this judgement is the judgement of God and His prophet."

The articles on Islam in wikipedia have also become a mediun for people to push their political ideas. There appears to be more politics in the Islam section than actual information about Islam.

Over the last fews days, on the Islam page I have done a lot of work to tie it to the other pages about islam in Misplaced Pages, chronologically. I also put links in to other articles on wikipedia about actual events agreed by every denomination and the historians. I tried to make it flow better. The whole section on islam still needs work from other contributors.

comment added by Johnleeds1 —Preceding undated comment added 21:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

--Johnleeds1 (talk) 18:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Adherents

"Estimates of the world Sunni population has been estimated by some analysts to be from over 75% to 90%."

This sentence seems to me to imply that 75% to 90% of the world's population is Sunni Moslem, rather than that the Sunnis comprise that proportion of all Moslems. Dawright12 (talk) 08:55, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

my last edit on sunni islam

sunni islam

discussion from talk page of User:Pass_a_Method

Mr pass a method my edit it totally nutral and also depended upon a reliable source.dont insert your WP:OR

Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.

you are making this article less informative.Dil e Muslim talk 14:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

1. Modernist Islam, 1840-1940: A Sourcebook By Charles Kurzman - Page 236
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight

That's an absolutely ridiculous claim, Am Not New/Dil e Muslim. Barelvis comprise 200 million out of 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, and they share South Asia with several other sub-categories of Sunni Islam like Deobandis and Ahl al-Hadeeth. Please don't use Misplaced Pages as a Barelvi propaganda platform; see WP:SOAPBOX. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Mr mezzomezzo your above made statement is WP:OR.and where i added my own contents.mezzomezzo stick to what the sources say in stead of making your own analysis.Dil e Muslim talk 07:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Every single source on all the related articles note that Deobandis and Ahl al-Hadeeth are also Sunnis and that Barelvi is a sub category for Sunni, not referring to all Sunnis in South Asia. Even if you refuse to accept that, the fact that at least six editors are now regularly reverting what they all agree is OR in your part is telling. You're only making things worse for yourself by being combative. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

mr mezzomezzo havent you read the source.the source is oxford dictionary of religion and it is clearly written on it that souce that alhesunnat wa jamaah is commonly known as barelvi.i am pasting that.and for your information my edit is according to nutral point of view.see me sentence.even its you who is making less informative.Dil e Muslim talk 17:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

well i am copying discussion to page Sunni islam to discus.Dil e Muslim talk 17:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The dictionary mentions that Barelvis call themselves that, not that they are that. Ahlus Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah is the Arabic long form of Sunni, which is more like a slang term/short form. And since Deobandis and Ahl al-Hadith are also acknowledged as movements within Sunni Islam by Oxford University Press sources as can be seen across multiple articles, your attempt to subtly hint that they (as the other Sunni movements in South Asia after Barelvis) are somehow heretics is a clear violation of WP:NPOV. Seeing editors who adhere to the Barelvi movement such as yourself attempt to write this in to Misplaced Pages over the past seven years has made a number of editors, including myself, aware of what you're trying to do. Be logical and think of what will happen if you continue this sort of behavior. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

mr mezzomezzo i think you havent read the souce.it is clearly written that ahlesunnah wa jamaat is known as barelvi.that doesnt mention that mentions that Barelvis call themselves that.that is your own deduction and is WP:OR.so i advice you to relay on source instead of giving your own logic.Dil e Muslim talk 18:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Sheikh Al-Misplaced Pages

EVERY Sunni knows there are only 4 Madhabs of Fiqh. Sunni Islam is not defined by Sheikh Al-Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages must report reality and not change the narrative into wishful thinking. Please have more integrity than to prey upon the gullible majority who do not know how to edit Misplaced Pages. 31.55.70.24 (talk) 08:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages reports what is available in reliable sources, per the Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources guideline. You have performed mass deletions of sourced content across multiple articles and have been reverted by multiple editors. Please familiarize yourself with site policies and guidelines before editing any further. MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Call a spade a spade MezzoMezzo, the editor corrected two articles and one template all originally edited by you MezzoMezzo to push your crackpot fringe POV. And not Multiple but 2 editors, you and your sockpuppet to be precise, have reverted the two articles and one template to push your particular crackpot fringe POV bias. There are only 4 Sunni Schools of Fiqh in the world today. You can fool some of th epeople some of the time but you will not be able to fool 2 billion Muslims Mr. Inverted Black "Magic Pentagram "Muslim. Your agenda is extremely clear. 109.144.134.141 (talk) 13:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Sir, the only one sockpuppeting is you; the tone of language used along with the specific POV you're pushing are exactly the same, and all within a few hours of each other. Your accusation of me being an "inverted black magic pentagram muslim," with the word "muslim" in quotation marks you wrote, is also an attack on my character.

Look, you're sockpuppeting in order to edit war and delete a reliable source. This isn't going to end well for you. Read and understand the site policy I linked to, otherwise I guarantee that this won't end well for you. MezzoMezzo (talk) 17:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

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