Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:36, 15 September 2013

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following lists: Misplaced Pages technical issues and templates Misplaced Pages proposals When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the lists. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Proposed: Create a new user right that would give trusted template coders the ability to edit templates, modules, and edit notices that have been fully protected for precautionary reasons. This RFC is scheduled to close on 11 October 2013. equazcion 10:07, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

Background

The following discussions were precursors to this proposal:

• This Administrators' noticeboard thread
• Request for adminship: Trappist the monk

The most pervasive templates on Misplaced Pages are generally fully protected: They are considered high-risk, because they make it possible for malicious or unknowing people to adversely affect many thousands of pages at once by editing a single page. High-use templates are therefore systematically full-protected as a precautionary measure. When any page is fully protected, administrators are the only editors who have the ability to edit them.

While full protection is an ideal temporary solution for articles that have demonstrated a state of overwhelming controversy, it is less ideal as a permanent precautionary measure for templates. Many editors who have shown an aptitude for coding templates, and have earned the trust of the community in doing their work, may not necessarily be administrators, nor even be interested in becoming administrators.

Non-administrators do have the ability to request edits at fully-protected templates for administrators to enact on their behalf, but there is a significant shortage of administrators who have the time and necessary skills to do this reliably. Coders also tend to find this extra step more than a mere annoyance: Technical work is largely rewarding to technically-minded people in that they value the hands-on experience. Many end up choosing to avoid having to verbalize uncontroversial edit requests made to convince someone else to enact an edit on their behalf, by simply avoiding work on fully-protected templates altogether.

As there is currently no measure that would allow access only for trusted editors with template know-how, some editors have resorted to applying for adminship, as is the case for Trappist the monk's RfA. Note the many comments from all sides saying that the optimal solution would be to grant a user right specifically to allow this editor access to high-use templates.

Proposal

Create a new user right that will allow editors who have earned the trust of the community as knowledgeable and responsible template coders to modify templates, modules, and edit notices that have been fully protected for precautionary reasons.

Permission

This permission will be limited, via technical means, only to pages in the Template and Module namespaces, as well as edit notices.

The protection levels of pages, only within the Template and Module namespaces, that are currently fully-protected for precautionary reasons, will be switched to a newly-created protection level. Pages with this new protection level will be editable by the new Template editor user rights group, as well as by sysops and above. This way, the new rights group will have its namespace restrictions enforced on a technical level; it will be impossible for them to edit full-protected pages in the article or project ("Misplaced Pages:") namespaces, for example. Actual full "sysop" protection will then be available as an extraordinary measure in the Template and Module namespaces, to temporarily disallow editing by anyone but administrators, should the need arise.

It should be understood that the standards for what constitutes a high-risk template should remain unchanged and not be expanded, despite this newly created protection level and rights group. Vigilance should be maintained in making sure this development does not grant a de facto license to protect more of Misplaced Pages's less risky templates on the grounds that many editors will still have access to edit them now that this rights group exists. The Template editor user right should not result in more templates becoming uneditable for the general editor population.

Use

Editors will be permitted to exercise this permission to perform maintenance, answer reasonable edit requests, and make any other simple and generally uncontroversial edits to templates, modules, and edit notices. They will also be permitted to enact more complex or controversial edits, after those edits are first made to a test sandbox, and their technical reliability as well as their consensus among other informed editors has been established.

Requesting

Editors will be able to request this permission via Misplaced Pages:Requests for permissions/Template editor, which will be created upon passing of this proposal.

Guidelines for granting

The new template editor user right will be granted by administrators. Administrators will use their own discretionary assessment of an editor's template contribution value, as well as the following general guidelines:

1. The editor should be a registered Misplaced Pages user for at least 1 year.

2. The editor should have made at least 1,000 overall edits.

3. The editor should have made at least 150 edits to the Template namespace.

4. The editor should have no behavioral blocks or 3RR violations for a span of 6 months prior to applying.

Additionally, an editor should have demonstrated a need for the right, as well as a familiarity with the care and responsibility required when dealing with high-risk template modification:

5. The editor should have worked on the sandbox version of at least three fully protected templates.

6. The editor should have requested and successfully enacted at least five significant edits at fully protected templates.

Items in this section are merely guidelines. An administrator may choose to substitute other proofs of an editor's competence in handling high-risk template responsibilities.

Criteria for revocation

The user right can be revoked at any time by an administrator without any process or prior notice in any of the following circumstances:

1. The editor demonstrated a pattern of performing obviously controversial edits to protected templates without first determining consensus.
2. The editor demonstrated a pattern of failing to exercise sufficient care when editing protected templates, resulting in serious errors appearing on pages.
3. The editor used the permission to gain the upper hand in disputes.
4. The editor has been inactive for 12 months.

Additionally, the right may be removed immediately at the request of the editor.

Support

1. Betty Logan (talk). Seems a reasonable suggestion to me. No reason why a trusted member of the community should have to go running to an admin every time. Betty Logan (talk) 10:24, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
2. TheDJ Yes please, can we enact this already ? I see no reason why a talented coder needs to be an admin on this site. Trust is enough. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
3. Fram. The reasons for removing it perhaps need to be expanded a bit, and the requirements for granting it perhaps loosened a bit, but this is basically a sound approach. Fram (talk) 11:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
4. The ever-increasing minimal standards required for a user to have a remote chance of succeeding at WP:RFA coupled with the complete lack of a requirement to possess knowledge of the wiki parser functions or Lua coding makes this user right a long overdue tool to bestow upon technically proficient editors who have shown competence and proper understanding of our rules/policies/guidelines, but whom either doesn't desire the responsibilities associated with full adminship, doesn't edit frequently enough to require the full toolset, or doesn't have the squeaky-clean demeanor expected of potential administrators. If there is a fear that certain templates are too delicate or high-visibility for even our trusted, experienced, and skilled editors, a new level of protection could be created. It could also be applied when edit wars erupt. - Floydian  _¢ 11:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   Floydian: Just to note, under this proposal, access will be granted to this group via a new protection level below full, so the usual full protection will still be available if any templates should ever be deemed too sensitive for this new user group. equazcion 11:20, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

5. I frequently patrol Category:Misplaced Pages protected edit requests, and I see plenty of editors who I would trust to edit high-risk templates, but who either don't want to take an RfA or who don't have the broad range of experience necessary to pass one. At the moment, there are only two or maybe three admins actively patrolling edit requests, and if we all disappear for a time (or, more likely, get caught up with writing templates and modules of our own), it can be days or even weeks before requests get answered. The proposed user right would make this situation much more efficient. — Mr. Stradivarius 11:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
6. Pointillist. If this is technically viable, I can't see any downside to this proposal. It is obviously a much better approach than granting full admin powers without performing a conventional RfA: it's simpler, less demanding for the candidate and less risky for the community. - Pointillist (talk) 11:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   I've just read Acalamari's oppose. I understand that position but see this as a one-off rather than being "a stepping stone to having multiple and confusing protection userrights for non-admins". However, if this proposal isn't a one-off, then I agree that would be a downside to some extent. - Pointillist (talk) 16:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

7. Looks good to me - subject to ironing out the details. I'd suggest getting the technical people to say if this is indeed viable before that, though. Peridon (talk) 11:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
8. Probably every experienced editor has basic knowledge of wiki markup—but Lua and Parser Functions are a different story (I can barely read Lua, let alone code it!) Experienced coders don't need to be admins. ~HueSatLum 11:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
9. From my experience as an admin on another wiki () I know full well that template changes can cause untold performance problems, without any obvious and immediate side effect to the user making changes, even when those changes have been completely in good faith and seemingly compliant with policy. Moreover, the technical skills required only have a small overlap with the diplomacy and policy understanding skills that are generally tested at RfA. One word of caution - the bulk of my template edits are related to WP:DYK, which generally have nothing to do with the problem this RFC is supposed to solve, and I suspect I'm not the only one in that position. Ritchie333 13:11, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
10. I don't see why not, in fact, I'd love to see it expanded to allowing them to work with Edit-protected requests (there's always a backlog) that are uncontroversial (typos, etc). ~Charmlet 13:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
11. Definately a step in the right direction. I am disappointed though that we have to create a whole new user right primarily because there is a major lack of good faith in the community to not trust our users and fierce protectionism over the Admin tools...which are no big deal. Kumioko (talk) 13:32, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    I don't see any harm that can come from this. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC) Changed to Oppose, see below. Jackmcbarn (talk) 12:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

    @Jackmcbarn: Please remember to indent !struck votes. — PinkAmpers& 07:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

12. I came here on the premise of opposing due to this proposal makeing it even harder for people to take the admin hurdle. We do want more admins not less. But: The proposed extra protection layer coupled with the argument of speedy corrections swayed me to support. Agathoclea (talk) 15:40, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
13. The skill set for admins and technical tasks are very different. Some folks I would trust to do one and not the other. The alternative to this are dropping protection to some high use templates to semi-protect or keeping status quo with sandbox main template model. Semi-protection is just too low for some templates as editors with no template experience could make uninformed edits to crucial templates. The sandbox model is good and I would expect any editor worthy of this status to test all major changes in a sandbox first. Minor edits with change some of wording don't need the review process. Further the TemplateData system does introduce a new use for this status - to update the TemplateData documentation for a template requires a null edit and many of those adding template data don't have the admin bit so can't complete their job. There has been a good number template just waiting for a null edit.--User:Salix alba (talk): 16:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
14. Qualified support I support the concept but the qualifications, etc. and won't block consensus to implement this as-is, but the criteria and other items in the proposal aren't exactly what I would prefer. For example, I would add a big bold statement reminding editors that edit over protection that they will be held to a higher standard, just as administrators are held to a higher standard when they use the mop. We can discuss tweaking the criteria after it is implemented. Also, see my discussion item below about an alternative way of doing the technical aspects of this proposal to allow other Wikipedias to have more options in delegating user-rights. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:09, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
15. I support the creation of the user right as outlined. We have a number of editors with the technical skills to know how to edit a template (more so than many admins), who can be trusted to make the edit and not delete the main page. I would have preferred a little more discussion of the granting process, which looks a little loose, but we can tighten that up as we go along. --SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
16. Support. This is a namespace that doesn't have very much attention from current administrators (not that I am blaming them or anything) and it is very, very disappointing and frustrating to have to see skilled editors in these areas go through the RfA process when all that is required is basic conflict resolution skills in addition to the technical knowledge and foresight required to know how to improve templates. I like the idea of encouraging editors who enjoy their work in this space to be able to do their work more effectively without taxing an already burdened and busy admin pool. I, JethroBT 18:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
17. Support A good compromise between needlessly clogging the edit-request list and single-purpose RfAs, with which the community (including myself) seems uncomfortable. Miniapolis 19:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
18. Support essentially per User:Floydian. In the Criteria for Revocation, I would prefer "demonstrated a pattern of performing" to become "has performed" and "demonstrated a pattern of failing" to become "has failed". But notwithstanding such details, I think this will benefit the project. --Stfg (talk) 20:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Stfg If I remember the drafting, the reason why "a pattern" was chosen over the explit "has" was to prevent one (potentially minor) mistake be grounds for a pitchfork mob (or a dedicated opposition) call to arms for removal of the user right. Hasteur (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    I see, thanks. I don't think pitchfork mobs are going to be that common or effective at getting this rather esoteric right removed; it isn't like the block/unblock buttons. Also, on the other side there's scope for wikilawyering about how far one can go before it constitutes a pattern ;) Still, one way or the other, this won't affect my support. --Stfg (talk) 21:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

19. I'm find with giving trusted users access to the admin toolset even if all they want to use it for is template editing. However, such RFAs create needless controversy, and so creating a seperate system for it makes a lot of sense. I can say personally, I don't feel comfortable fulfilling an edit protected request unless I feel I fully understand what the changes will do, and for more complex templates, that can be very hard. Monty₈₄₅ 21:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
20. I see no reason to hand out the full kit (with all the issues surrounding it) to someone who only wants to work in a specific area such as this. That, coupled with the ease of revocation should the tool's use prove problematic (something that currently isn't possible with the full set), makes this a good solution. Intothatdarkness 21:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
21. I don't even care about the specific granting/removing criteria or details; they can be worked out/modified later, and I'm certainly not going to risk killing this idea by suggesting tweaks to the criteria now. I only supported the RFA in question because this doesn't currently exist, so my support there shouldn't be taken as evidence that we don't need this option. This is better. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
22. Clearly needed given recent issues at RfA and elsewhere. Nicely written proposal btw. Hobit (talk) 22:21, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
23. Support per Floydian, there are many editors capable of editing templates that for various reasons will not become administrators. This can only be a net benefit to the project. AIRcorn (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
24. I support this proposal with very high enthusiasm. It's very clear that there are users who could do a lot of good here, but who should not have the other administrative tools. I've read the opposes so far, and on balance I'm not seeing any downside. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
25. Support - Agree with most of the above supports. This approach deals with the real problems of allowing skilled coders from working on templates as well as encourages good practices by highlighting the importance of sandboxes and testing. The proposal allows for reasonable safeguards, including the ability to treat protection over content disagreements separately then protection over high visibility or high usage. It addresses many of the real problems of the current situation such as the ones most familiar with some of the protected templates. Even with testing there is always the possibility that bugs related to say unusual usages of the template might still get missed. With the current situation the admin that approves the edit request might not be familiar enough with the template to quickly fix the issue that it introduces which means that broken versions make exist longer. This is true even if the admin that applied the requested edit was skilled in template or lua coding, as someone unfamiliar with the details and usage of a particular template might not understand the reasoning behind all the pieces of the implementation. By allowing trusted editors involved in the design and creation of the particular templates to make the changes themselves it means that they can also fix such bugs much quicker. Finally as others mentioned while protecting heavily used templates is an unfortunate necessity these days it can alienate editors that worked or created those templates. One of the reasons that I personally slowed my own editing was getting discouraged after some templates that I heavily worked on ( and was about to do a redesign to ) got fully protected after they got hit with some minor vandalism. PaleAqua (talk) 02:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
26. Support as proposed. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:27, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
27. Support - this simply makes WP:COMMONSENSE. Unfortunatly there are some things - such as heavily transcluded templates - that must be protected, even fully, both for being easy vandalism targets and because of the technical load on the already-overstressed job queue, and there are plenty of editors who are more than able, as well as willing, to tweak those templates as and when needed but who have no interest, or no time, for adminship. This lets them improve their ability to help the encyclopedia, without the baggage that comes with the mop. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
28. Support - The increasing complexity and specialization of high-risk templates makes it basically sensible that this should exist. Trying to filter highly-technical edits through willing but non-technical admins is a recipe for problems. Choess (talk) 03:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
29. Seems like some long-overdue common sense. Joefromrandb (talk) 04:22, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
30. Support - Useful for good coders who don't want to or cannot become admins. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
31. Support per many others - Bushranger, KoH, etc. I won't nitpick the proposed criteria; I mostly agree with them, but that can be dealt with later. — This, that and the other (talk) 08:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
32. Support Sure, does no harm. Adminship criteria is too tough these days. jni (talk) 09:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
33. Support. This would reduce bureaucracy for those such as Trappist who want to undertake this activity. It would also reduce unnecessary time wastage at RfA. Axl ¤ 11:12, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
34. Support - per Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Trappist the monk. This will help solve conundrums where template people who aren't good with other things or don't want to do other things can still edit what they are determined to do. öBrambleberry of RiverClan 12:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
35. Fully protected templates due to visibility is just that -- means to avoid issues propagating over thousands of pages. This is not mistrust in editors, this is a precaution against that one vandal that can cause damage and ridiculous loads that 1000 vandals couldn't in individual articles. Otherwise the templates are no different from any other area of WP, except that inexperience can cause issues. So I think this proposal is a good middle ground. Consensus and testing are still paramount when making changes. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 13:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
36. Support per most of the above – experienced coders should be able to do their stuff without needing a mop. - Evad37 (talk) 15:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
37. This is an elegant solution to a longstanding problem. This will allow us to maintain high standards for the most sensitive permissions without inconveniencing experienced editors who don't have the variety of credentials and/or the desire to pass RFA. Small note that I think "template editor" probably isn't the best name, as it could give people the mistaken impression that others can't edit templates—maybe "protected template editor"? — PublicAmpers& 15:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
38. A sensible suggestion. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 20:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
39. Support - No reason not too. The reason for protecting templates was to protect against vandalism, not to stop good editors from editing templates. This proposal would solve that problem. Garion96 (talk) 20:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
40. Support- Based on Trappist the Monk's RfA. Single purpose RfA's shouldn't be here. buffbills7701 22:31, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
41. Support - This new user right would help cut down on the backlog of fully protected template edit requests. This would allow trusted and experienced users to continue work without having to go through the RfA process when they would just be requesting the mop to edit templates. All in all I feel it is a good thing for the community. — -dainomite   23:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
42. Support - Looks like a well thought-out proposal that solves a long-standing problem. This would solve some of the single purpose RfAs. It could also be a step toward proving the trust required for an admin. - tucoxn\ 23:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
43. Support. Allowing edit-access per namespace seems workable in the MediaWiki software, and might need to restrict editing of the protected Lua script modules, as separate from template namespace pages, due to extreme complexity of Lua script as generally very difficult for many users to understand without extensive discussions with other editors, who might already have module-edit access. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:42, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
44. Support although it will only releave a small amount of admin work, it is likely to disproportionately fall on those admins that are competent with template editing. So if we have more competent template and clueful editors to help out that would be good. Adding the modules part sounds good. Edit notices not so good, but we should be able to trust these people not to embarrass themselves with edit notices either. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
45. Support - I see a great potential of this right in the future. -- numbermaniac 12:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
46. I acknowledge the point that Acalamari raises, I just think that the benefits of this outweigh any downsides. NW (Talk) 15:49, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
47. Support DavidLeighEllis (talk) 17:24, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
48. Support, per Mr. Stradivarius. If proliferation of user rights is a problem, I would gladly solve that by trading this right for File mover. File movers sleep a lot here ; Wbm1058 (talk) 19:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
49. Support. But, comment: you can't describe a user "right" as a "privilege"! That part needs to be rewritten. Or maybe the issue is that "user right" is the wrong name for this kind of thing in the first place. — Scott • talk 00:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

    Point taken. I've changed it to "permission", which I hope will suffice. equazcion 01:10, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)

50. Support Editing a protected template and editing a protected article need different skill sets and different kinds of trust. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
51. Support --Rschen7754 09:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
52. Support – I'm an expert template coder (day job). On WP I'm not allowed near them and I have to ask a teenager to do it for me. This has long been a crazy way of working. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

    @Andy Dingley: I don't think any of the admins who patrol CAT:EP are teenagers. I'm quite a bit older than that, at any rate... — Mr. Stradivarius 15:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

53. Support As an admin (though not a teenager) I realize that there are a lot of non-admins who know a hell of a lot more about templates than I do, and we should definitely give them a chance to help out more. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:27, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
54. Support. Yes, please, and where do I sign up? –Fredddie™ 23:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
55. Support - You shouldn't need to pass an RfA to be able to code templates. Simple. TCN7JM 00:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
56. Support as sounds a great proposal. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 01:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
57. Support I think it's a good idea. Why not? Bananapeel89 (talk) 01:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Bananapeel89Bananapeel89 (talk) 01:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
58. Support Indeed. This might help some users around with their work. — ΛΧΣ 02:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
59. Pointless support - This will just be shot down (largely by admins) like so many other attempts to create the "protected page editor" usergroup. Perhaps admins should be restricted from voting in unbundling discussions.... Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

    Huh? This is at 61-8 support, and even higher among admins only, at 23-2 by my count. — PinkAmpers& 07:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

60. Support A good idea, protecting templates will only help to protect against vandalism, not stopping proven editors from modifying templates.Hughesdarren (talk) 03:51, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
61. Support – sounds sensible to me. Graham87 04:14, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
62. Support. Sounds okay with me. Jianhui67 Talk 07:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
63. Support the benefit of increasing access outweighs the instruction creep for me. VQuakr (talk) 07:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
64. Support as making the tasks here easier. (aka Ched) — ChedZILLA 07:59, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
65. Support. Protecting templates is fundamentally different from protecting articles in several respects, so it makes sense to grant access separately. GregorB (talk) 09:22, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
66. Support per my road template editing colleague Fredddie. As someone who will apply for this immediately, it's about time! -happy5214 09:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
67. Yes! I have needed this many times, and have mentioned the idea several times myself. Ideal solution. Debresser (talk) 10:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
68. Support, definitely needed. I certainly hope there aren't any opposers below that are also opposing the RFA of the editor who is only running because this currently isn't in place (and if there is, well, You can't have your cake and eat it too). Steven Zhang 13:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
69. Support, assuming technical implementation is feasible. Ironholds (talk) 17:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
70. Support, It is going to encourage many users to stay with Misplaced Pages. I don't see why not. SHIVAM SETU (U-T-C-E) 17:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

1. There needs to be a better rationale before I could support this. Saying that coders don't want to have to verbalize their reasons for wanting the changes and therefore shouldn't have to isn't a suitable reason. If these fully protected templates are that important, shouldn't changes to them be made only by consensus? Wouldn't the reasons have to be explained anyway to get that consensus? I understand, though, that coders enjoy their work and want to do it themselves, so I would support a temporary right that was given by an admin, after the rationale for the change was explained, allowing the coder to make the changes him/herself rather than by proxy on a particular template or set of templates. —Anne Delong (talk) 11:54, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
   • Thanks for your question Anne Delong! Many of the requested changes are trivial and non-controversial; fixing a punctuation error, fixing a misspelled word, adding a new optional parameter, or expanding a template to allow more input based on an established pattern. Technical 13 (talk) 12:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   • Typos should be easy to explain and have an admin fix. The other items you mention I feel should have consensus. Coders sometimes make changes that they consider trivial that may not be considered so by others. For example, in the Afc script the word "hoax" keeps being deleted from the decline reason "joke or hoax", with no discussion among the reviewer community. Someone perhaps thought (more than once) that this was a trivial change. Last week the decline template for a while neglected to list the name of the decliner. Before that, one day the link to the help page mysteriously disappeared from one of the templates. Since the protected templates must be considered more important than these ones, I would feel more comfortable if the coders had to explain what they were going to do, get permission from an admin, so that said admin could check afterwards to see that the result was correct and within policy. —Anne Delong (talk) 13:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   • The situations you're describing are just as likely to occur when an admin makes the edit. Minor mistakes will occur from time to time no matter who is involved (incidentally, admins are not required to check with someone else before making their own minor edits, and we do have some admin coders). Adminship doesn't guarantee or even indicate any level of coding knowledge that would prevent mistakes. The best assurance that mistakes will be kept to a minimum is to get more competent coders involved, and currently, most of those are not admins, nor do they want to contribute their expertise at fully-protected templates, for the aformentioned reasons. equazcion 13:42, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   Actually most of the admins admit they wouldn't know if the code was right, they just make the change in blind faith. So its better for the one who knows what the code is going to do makes the change so if there is a problem it can be fixed quickly without having to submit an edit request and wait anywhere from several hours to a week for it to get fixed. Kumioko (talk) 15:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   ...which also touches on the problem of there being relatively few admins around who take it upon themselves to handle the queue of protected edit requests (I make no judgments there, it's just a fact). Forgetting about improvements, mere maintenance and required fixes can therefore take a while. equazcion 15:14, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   • (edit conflict) The issues that you are describing Anne are with the Yet Another Articles for Creation Helper Script of which there has been a lot of rapid changes going on lately with many new features to adapt to using the latest code (the team has been converting much of the script to jQuery and adapting to use CSS3 / HTML5 lately) to improve load times and prevent mass failures when the old code is no longer supported by browsers and to offer an in-house option for reviewing drafts which fall under the fairly new CSD:G13 criteria. It was determined by the lead developer of the script that the decline template was not showing the the decliner and timestamp of decline on your report because the edit was made manually and not using the script (ticket on GitHub). Also, for the record, the decline template is fully protected (verify) which means that when things go wrong, none of the AFCH developers (mabdul — Nathan2055 — Technical 13 — Theopolisme — Hasteur: — APerson241) can quickly fix it and it needs to sit there until a request is answered by an admin, which usually takes days to fix. Technical 13 (talk) 15:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   Well, I said that I opposed because I thought the rationale was weak. Some of the items being brought up here are legitimate points and should be added to the rationale. —Anne Delong (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   (opposition weakening..) Although I still don't think that this new privilege is really necessary, some good arguments have been made about why it would be convenient and maybe desirable. The template editing qualifications seem well thought out. The edit count seems a bit low; that's about two weeks of editing for me, and it takes experience to work within Misplaced Pages's policies. I'm also little concerned about the weakness of the "trust" qualifications. Just not being blocked or edit warring lately isn't much of an endorsement. How about adding having demonstrated an understanding of the consensus process? And I wouldn't like to see admins wait until there is a "pattern" of controversial editing without consensus before suspending the privilege. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:18, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

   • I had the same concern on reading the proposal. If "verbalize justifiable edit requests" is changed to "verbalize uncontroversial edit requests", my concern would disappear.--Wikimedes (talk) 23:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
     • That seems reasonable, so I made that change as suggested. equazcion 23:44, 14 Sep 2013 (UTC)
2. Qualified oppose For the same reason as the last time something like this came up several months ago. I remain unconvinced this is a serious problem, to such an extant that such drastic measures are rerquired to resolve it. I also still support the much simpler idea of re-purposing pending changes level 2, which is currently more or less unused, to accomplish the exact same thing 'without creating new user rights and protection levels, which by the way we cannot simply will into existence. Do we even know if the WMF is aware of this idea? Will the devs even work on it? Do those proposing this realize that even if this is approved and the WMF agreees to implement it it will probably take six months to a year to become a reality? Despite all the previous discussion this still strikes me as a poorly thought out proposal that ignores a much simpler option using tools we already have. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   See this discussion in the drafting talk page of this proposal, where the possibility of using PC2 this way was discussed. There are a few problems with using PC2 this way currently, and would require changing the way the permission works in a number of ways, ie. coding. It's actually simpler to create a new permission, as that would only require a little new text in the MediaWiki configuration file. In that same discussion, you'll see that a few developers are aware of this proposal, and one of them stated that a new permission is feasible should the community decide on it. equazcion 15:44, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   PS. There is also the fact that PC2 has been given out to many, many users already without this functionality in mind. If we're to assume the ability to edit high-risk templates should require some degree of special vetting, it doesn't seem feasible to reuse a permission that's already been given out exhaustively to those who haven't gone through any such vetting. equazcion 15:53, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   Is the administrator toolset a response to a drastic situation, or do we not provide it to trusted users in order to assist them in the kinds of efforts they already carry out? This provides a... drastic... increase in productivity to experienced coders. - Floydian  _¢ 18:09, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

3. Oppose Once upon a time, some visionary people set out to build an encyclopedia based on the absurd notion that the general populace could be trusted to do the right thing. Further, that any would be evil doers would be so out numbered by the good people that the end product would be exceptional. They were right. Here we sit upon the mount of 4.3 million articles created by this mass of general population who were trusted to do the absurd thing of creating an encyclopedia. And now we set forth to say "No, we do not trust you. No, what you have created must be protected from you. No, you must now seek out special privileges in our ever expanding bureaucracy". Look at yourselves in the mirror people. If the attitude expressed here existed when Misplaced Pages began, Misplaced Pages wouldn't even exist. TRUST the masses that created this damn project and unprotect the templates. Not ONCE have I ever committed vandalism, but I can't be trusted to edit a template even though there's been numerous times when I've needed to. No, instead I need to ask someone who is "trusted" to do it for me, because I'm not trusted. What asininity. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   You may have a point, but in the absence of your ideal situation, wouldn't it be good to get things a step closer to it by providing access to more of the people who need it, rather than taking an all-or-nothing stance? equazcion 21:42, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   No. Either you trust people or you don't. You don't expand bureaucracy to solve the problems of the expanding bureaucracy. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   This seems like letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, Hammersoft. I think I understand your perspective here (although I tend to disagree), but I think that argument has already been lost. I don't imagine there's going to be a consensus to unprotect highly used templates back to semiprotection or no protection. If that's true, then what's the best way to enable you, and experienced users like you, to edit these templates? I think this is. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:11, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   Hammersoft, this proposal would not take away any abilities that the editors have now; it would do the opposite, giving some users extra capabilities, giving them more trust. So this should be a move in the direction that you would like, even though not all the way. One possible side effect: Once there are lots of coders editing the protected templates, this may lead to the idea that more templates need to be protected, since one of the reasons for not protecting them will have been eliminated. —Anne Delong (talk) 22:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

   My point is to give the right back to where it belongs. This is like taking my right away, then telling me things are improving because more people will be able to answer my requests to have work done for me by proxy. And I should be happy about this? How many years, how many edits does it take for someone to be trusted enough to edit the most visible article on the project? I'll answer for you. Zero, in both cases. Yet, I can't be trusted to edit a template? I'll tell you what will happen. This is passing with flying colors, 8:1 right now. A year from now, far more templates will be protected, and I will have even LESS privileges on the project to do the work I've done in the past. But that's ok, this is the project that ANYone can edit...so long as you're "TRUSTED". But I'm not trusted, because I'm just a lowly stupid editor who can barely ties his shoes. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:58, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

4. Oppose I'm worried that having this available will lead to it being used when semi-protection would be more appropriate, which is contrary to the goal of letting more people edit more templates. I think a stronger guideline is needed for when each level of protection should be created before this becomes available. Jackmcbarn (talk) 12:33, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

   Jackmcbarn That's a valid point that was brought up during drafting, and probably should have been addressed in the RfC text initially. I've now added something about this above, under #Privilege. equazcion 12:50, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   @Equazcion:I don't feel like including a paragraph saying "make sure this doesn't happen" will keep it from happening. I think a stronger solution is needed Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

5. I strongly support tool unbundling in general and as such I would prefer the implementation of a userright that would allow non-admins to edit any fully-protected page rather than just some. I'm not convinced that over-specialization like this is warranted: as I am sure that anyone seeking this userright would be held to high standards, I think that if someone is trusted to edit one type of protected page then they can be trusted to edit (or trusted to not edit) another. Without wanting to resort to hyperbole, I'd rather this not become a stepping stone to having multiple and confusing protection userrights for non-admins when one would do. I'm not convinced by the "problem" of single-purpose candidacies at RfA, either: they are not overwhelming the process nor are they a major burden. Acalamari 13:25, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

   Many people still seem uncomfortable with single-purpose RFAs though, enough that getting them to pass is hit-or-miss; and that's disregarding the fact that most avid coders have no interest in putting themselves through RFA, nor with its other associated tools. As proposals to unbundle the way you suggest have failed repeatedly, wouldn't it make some sense to make a concession and implement a next-best option that might finally get our avid coders working where they're needed? equazcion 15:05, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   I don't know whether there's anything you could add to the proposal to address the specific point about it being "a stepping stone to having multiple and confusing protection userrights for non-admins". It's a valid concern, though IMO the technical element makes this a one-off situation. - Pointillist (talk) 16:27, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

   It's not entirely clear to me what would be so bad about further area-specific rights cropping up in the future, if it means more of the people who are good at something specific are allowed to do it, while also alleviating the concerns of those who would rather not give out far-reaching tools packages. I'm rather skeptical that "confusion" will ensue, nor that even if some people did end up confused when they looked into the various rights available on Misplaced Pages that that isn't something that could be dealt with rather easily. Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that as steps like this are taken, an actual unbundling could begin making more sense to more people down the line, and individual rights may start becoming combined. Either way, none of this can happen if we don't start actually implementing steps, choosing instead to demand that our many widely varying individual ideals are met fully. Everyone has their ideal of what Misplaced Pages should be, but making demands based on those ideals keeps us from progressing at all. equazcion 16:36, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   Mmm, but then this RfC would have to be about unbundling in general rather than this specific case. There are special circumstances for template maintenance that are part of the reason the proposal is getting so much support. I'm not saying there would be anything necessarily "bad about further area-specific rights cropping up in the future", but of course other editors might be concerned about gradualism/thin end of the wedge etc. It's best to keep this RfC as narrow as possible, IMO. - Pointillist (talk) 16:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

   It could be that down the line unbundling may start making sense to people if several area-specific rights seem to entail similar virtues. That doesn't mean this RFC need be about unbundling. I don't know what will happen in the unforeseeable future nor is such forecasting a part of this proposal. It's just one possibility. What I do know is that those who want that to happen are not serving themselves by demanding that it happen now or else no arguably small part of it can, as the former has proven unlikely. equazcion 17:12, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   Agree 100% - Pointillist (talk) 18:12, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

6. oppose per Hammersoft and Jackmcbarn. Also, guideline #1 for granting this "privilege" is near-absurd and would only drive new template editors away, and probably stems from Misplaced Pages's general paranoia and disregard for anonymity. — Lfdder (talk) 17:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

   As proposals such as these have generated resistance in the past from those concerned with such rights falling into unproven hands, the guidelines were written conservatively in the hopes of alleviating those concerns. Coming up with guidelines that will be more or less universally acceptable is a challenge that can yet be tackled in the future should this pass; and the guidelines are far from hard-and-fast rules. The granting administrators will use their own discretion in assessing whether an editor has proven themselves capable and trustworthy. equazcion 18:06, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)

7. Oppose I don't see the need. Basically, I agree with Beeblebrox. If people want to argue like they did with the other six opposes, I rarely revisit !votes.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   Just FYI, I didn't post arguments in those cases in order to garner responses from those who opposed; but rather to let onlookers know that there are counterpoints to the unique issues those opposers raised. You haven't done that, so I won't be posting an argument here. equazcion 00:22, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

8. Oppose: "While full protection is an ideal temporary solution for templates that have demonstrated a state of overwhelming controversy, it is less ideal as a permanent precautionary measure for articles. Many editors who have shown an aptitude for editing articles, and have earned the trust of the community in doing their work, may not necessarily be administrators, nor even be interested in becoming administrators.
   "Non-administrators do have the ability to request edits at fully-protected articles for administrators to enact on their behalf, but there is a significant shortage of administrators who have the time and necessary equanimity to do this reliably. Editors also tend to find this extra step more than a mere annoyance: Editing work is largely rewarding to linguistically-minded people in that they value the creative experience. Many end up choosing to avoid having to verbalize uncontroversial edit requests made to convince someone else to enact an edit on their behalf, by simply avoiding work on fully-protected articles altogether.
   "As there is currently no measure that would allow access only for trusted editors with article-editing know-how, some editors have resorted to applying for adminship..." Brycehughes (talk) 05:50, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
   • I understand the point you are making but the parallels are not the same. ( I do think that there should probably be a protected page editor right however, but that is not this RfC. ) Full protection is not a temporary solution for templates.... and permanent protection is not as common for articles. The page "Blue" doesn't get protected just because the color blue is used on a large number of pages; but for template space that alone would be a good reason for the page to be fully protected. There is a much larger pool of admins that will assist with protected articles—especially as such pages tend to be contested and on the watch list of active admins—while there are only three admins actively watching for edit requests to templates. A delay in making a fix to an article will leave just that article in a "imperfect" state for the time it makes for the edit request to be acted upon. A delay in making a fix to a high visibility template will leave a lot of pages broken. Also changes to templates might require changes to all the pages that use the template, which means that any overhead in the process can get magnified. PaleAqua (talk) 06:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   It's not the number of protected templates vs. articles that matters; it's the frequency that they're edited—or, rather, have people wanting to edit them. Why do the technically-minded get a back door? Brycehughes (talk) 07:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   It's not about whether or not people are technically minded. The point is that articles aren't protected "just as a precaution", whereas many templates are. To quote the protection policy "Pre-emptive full protection of articles is contrary to the open nature of Misplaced Pages." No one is arguing that we need to be as open with high-use templates because of the potential for mess. Yaris678 (talk) 07:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   I don't see how the reason why a page or template gets protected has any bearing on whether or not there exists a genuine problem that needs to be solved for the good of the Misplaced Pages project. I do see how having templates preemptively protected might annoy a group of people who like to edit templates. Brycehughes (talk) 08:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   If there was a load of pre-emptively protected articles, people would probably be arguing for a user right to edit those too. Yes, that argument would probably come from them being annoyed at not being able to edit the pre-emtively protected articles, but is that so bad? Surely not annoying users is a good thing. Yaris678 (talk) 09:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   It's bad when it's the sole argument for creating yet another user right. How many are there now? 16? Everyone else has to WP:CHILL and wait for their edits to go through. I don't see why we need to make a special exception for template editors. Brycehughes (talk) 14:41, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   It's not merely about annoyance, if you read the rationale both above and in the linked discussions; although for the sake of argument, if it's annoying enough that the people who can work on something stop working on it altogether, that could be reason enough. If articles were preemptively protected and required edit requests, and that caused all the skilled content contributors to stop contributing content, people would likely consider that reason to consider a change. In any case, to answer your "back door" comment, templates are full-protected because people without the necessary skills and responsibility can end up causing a lot of damage via a one-time mistake. All those various "oops" edits that occur in article space could cause massive problems if they occurred at high-use templates. That's why those who have been vetted as knowledgeable and responsible in this area are being proposed as receiving said permission. It's not about seeing technically-minded people as a higher class that deserves special treatment -- they're just uniquely suited to safely help out in this specific area. equazcion 14:59, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   That doesn't make sense. According to the proposal, the right will allow editors to make "simple and generally uncontroversial edits to templates", while more "complex or controversial edits" will be subject to testing and consensus. What is the requisite skill level for making a simple edit? This isn't about creating a new tool that only the most "skilled" and "responsible" among us can employ immediately in those dreaded template-emergency situations—indeed, those situations are preempted by precautionary protection. Rather, it's about creating a new privilege for a group of people who have the wherewithal to lobby the Misplaced Pages community for their own user right. Brycehughes (talk) 15:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   There's no requisite skill level for making a simple edit. There is a requisite skill level for determining which edits are simple, however. As for creating a new privilege for those who can, I'd say if you were familiar with the history you probably wouldn't be saying that. This has been a multi-year-long headache that failed many times over, and pretty much no one has had the lobbying strength to push through thus far. Those who would be getting the permission in question wouldn't have kept this up for this long just because they can, as so far, they decidedly can't. And if it makes any difference to anyone, I, the author of this proposal, do not plan on applying for the permission should it become a reality. In fact if this RFC closes as a pass, I'll likely be re-hanging my "retired" banner. equazcion 16:28, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   If it were true that there was a requisite skill level for determining which template edits are simple, then all templates would need to be protected from editors who didn't have those skills. But they're not, because your statement is untrue. Regarding your multi-year long headache, how does that refute my point? Lobbying efforts for special privileges can't fail? They can't last for years? It has no bearing on the cost/benefit analysis before us, other than confirming that the issue has been correctly decided in the past. Brycehughes (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   I bring up the history because you've assumed an ulterior motive. You say those who would get the permission are responsible for lobbying for it, and are doing so simply because they can, and because it would benefit them, so why wouldn't they. I'd contend that after the first try or two at getting something just 'cause they can, it would've seemed apparent that they can't. At this point it should be discernible that it's gone on this long because many people aside from those potential editors believe the encyclopedia needs this, and/or that it would at least be an improvement. Of course, the accusation that techies started this and should be blamed for incurring all this unwarranted support is not really something anyone would be able to prove either way. All I can do is tell you that I won't be getting the permission myself if this goes through, which I should hope at least shows my own intentions. I can also ask that you look at the potential net cost of this proposal versus its net gain, rather than attempting to assess everyone's motives. equazcion 17:28, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   I haven't assumed an ulterior motive. I've assumed a motive in plain sight, as it also happens to be your premise. The proposal background clearly states that people who like to edit templates do not like to wait for their edits to be approved. By implementing this proposal, Misplaced Pages will make people who like to edit templates happy. Were I one of them, I would probably think this was a great idea too. But, in the bigger picture, I would also hope there'd be people outside of myself and my template-editor peers to zoom out and weigh the benefits of bestowing special privileges onto a certain group of editors against the cons of establishing yet another editor hierarchy as it affects the project at large. There are no accusations here, other than an attack on the weakness of the proposal. Brycehughes (talk) 17:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   I forgot to answer your first point: "If it were true that there was a requisite skill level for determining which template edits are simple, then all templates would need to be protected from editors who didn't have those skills." -- Most templates aren't widespread enough that bad edits to them would cause significant issues. They're protected because they exist on many thousands of pages. It would take a requisite skill level to determine whether an edit is simple enough to be made without risk given the pervasiveness of the template. equazcion 17:45, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   Then spend your template editing time editing the majority of templates that aren't widespread enough to pose this risk. For the templates that are permanently protected, make an edit request. Just like everyone else. The world won't end before you see your protected template edit go through. Brycehughes (talk) 18:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

   "Then spend your template editing time editing the majority of templates that aren't widespread enough to pose this risk." -- That's precisely what they do currently. And so, work on the widespread templates suffers. equazcion 18:04, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

   As it should, because they're high risk. Brycehughes (talk) 18:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

9. Oppose - Poorly thought-out proposal. The criteria for granting the user right are a horrible case of WP:CREEP and I also fail to see the point of it - from the three-template requirement this seems to be aimed at users maintaining templates across the whole site rather than specific ones relevant to their area, who will still have to use {{editprotected}}. If somebody's that interested in sitewide maintenance encourage them to run for adminship. If not, use sandboxes and {{editprotected}} like the rest of us. The main problem here isn't the lack of a userright, it's the overuse of preemptive protection. --W. D. Graham 08:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think those last three criteria for granting are a bit overly specific, I would make it a bit looser than that, but we can work that out. Also with Lua here now, we should probably include Module space into this. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:58, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the heading should be "Guidelines for granting", rather than "Criteria"? - Pointillist (talk) 11:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I think modules are supposed to be included - is the wording unclear anywhere? — Mr. Stradivarius 11:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

TheDJ, Pointillist: Module space is already included here. As for the criteria, it's specific to alleviate concerns over the potential of this privilege to fall into unqualified hands. I felt there was a better shot at acceptance across the community if specifics were laid out. That said, the content of the section already has "guidelines" in bold, with mention that it's really at the administrator's discretion; but maybe I'll change the header as well. equazcion 11:15, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

You're doing a great job. I just thought that contrasting "Guidelines for granting" with "Criteria for revocation" might help with acceptance. - Pointillist (talk) 11:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks :) I made the header change, FYI. equazcion 11:38, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• The last two criteria, IMO, are intended to ensure a editor is indeed learned in template editing... However, many of the editors who work with templates network together, and its possible for an editor to request coding changes on IRC, email, or user talk pages. These two should be discretionary. Perhaps the first four criteria should be closer to requirements, while the last two could be used as part of a larger list of skillsets for determining an editor's expertise. Coding in Lua is a greater indicator than use of the edit-protected template. - Floydian  _¢ 11:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm open to this and it seems people have thus far expressed a feeling that the criteria could use loosening. Stipulating that the final two criteria are more discretionary seems like a good idea, for the reasons you put forth. I'm not sure what exact textual changes to make yet -- As this is a meta issue we could discuss exact changes to employ on the talk page. equazcion 12:03, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)
  • I still think that the last two guidelines are weak, but I've compromised. I've spent 14.9 years and made hundreds of template edits (mostly on a specialized wiki for an MMO I played + on wikipedia) and I still don't know all there is to know about templates. That being said, having all of this experience, I can pretty quickly look it up in the appropriate manual on MediaWiki wiki. I think that the current wording of the guidelines allows for consideration of edit requests anywhere, including but not limited to the template talk page, IRC, email, and user talk pages. Technical 13 (talk) 13:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Question: Whilst this is presumaby technicaly doable, do we have any idication from the developers that they have the time and inclination to actually modify the necessary bits to create the user right? Pedro :  Chat  11:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • The technical ramifications were explored thoroughly in the drafting talk page, now archived but linked on this talk page. On the developer side, this change would only require config changes, rather than new coding (a new user right + a new protection level). See here for a portion of that, in which User:Anomie dropped by and indicated a new protection level is viable if the community is for it. equazcion 12:00, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks Equazcion, I didn't see that link, appreciated. Pedro :  Chat  12:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• (multiple ECs) Although i, in general, am not in favour of unbundling, i am not currently going to oppose. I do think, however, that the timing of this RfC is a little unfortunate, in view of the RfA running as it was started (yes, i'm aware that this particular RfA is part of the motivation for the RfC); it seems to me that if the Request is successful, as doesn't seem unlikely as i write this, that is a sign that the Community is more prepared to grant adminship for a single use than it was previously. That being the case, i'd not be in favour of the new usergroup being offered here. More generally, i'm not sure i understand why or where we would draw the lines of trust: If we trust someone to be able to edit templates through protection why wouldn't we trust him in other areas? Cheers, Lindsay 12:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

This proposal means a Template Editor candidate can be assessed using criteria that are much narrower and to some extent more objective than those in an RfA. There is also a far more credible mechanism for revocation. - Pointillist (talk) 13:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Pointillist ~ your last point there is probably the strongest reason i can see for supporting the proposal; i hadn't missed it, exactly, but my mind did gloss over it a bit. Cheers, Lindsay 15:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, a general feeling was expressed even by supporters at the RfA that they were only supporting because there was no option such as the one described here. equazcion 13:11, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• • Hello Lindsay! I appreciate your concerns and questions. Let's see what I can answer, and maybe others can back me up or offer more insight. The current RfA process isn't as much about technical ability and trust. It's a bureaucratic process that requires a wide array of abilities and commitments from having created multiple new articles and contributed to many administrator area discussions (AfD, RPP, and AIV to name a few) to having a good ability to converse and discuss with other editors under extreme circumstances (being the subject of PA or TROLLing for example) instead of just being able to step away. Moreover, my observation of the RfAs I've contributed to has been that it is very much more about a popularity contest than it is about technical skills and trustworthiness. This new proposed right is more along the lines of creating a usergroup that will allow our more technically inclined editors to be more productive in the specific areas that they are interested in based on their skillset. Technical 13 (talk) 13:43, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Technical 13. I have to say that i completely disagree with one of your points (sorry!) ~ i think that RfA is very largely about trust, which is why i mentioned it earlier. We are giving a set of tools to a candidate based on whether or not we, as a community, trust him not to screw up or go crazy. Looking at their various abilities/experiences is just a means of evaluating their trustworthiness. That's why it seems to me that Trappist the monk and others have chosen to go along the best path in order to be more productive in the specific areas that they are interested in based on their skillset. Thus, from my perspective, this new userright is not necessary. But, we can agree to differ. Cheers, Lindsay 15:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• Alternative implementation recommended Create a mechanism in the code so individuals can be bypass edit protection for specific pages or groups of pages, then for the English Misplaced Pages use this new mechanism to do what is suggested above. This implementation will give other Wikipedias, including non-Foundation projects using the software, the flexibility do do things like give "edit protected page" rights to curators of arbitrary articles or groups of articles and their associated pages, or provide similar features. As the English Misplaced Pages specifically does not allow "ownership" this would not be used for curating content or likely any other purpose in article-space in the English Misplaced Pages. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 17:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • This was discussed during the drafting stage of this proposal, but the developers indicated that it wasn't technically feasible. I'm assuming it can be done (from a software development standpoint it doesn't seem all that farfetched), but would require some substantial development and reworking of the software, so it would be far less likely to actually be implemented by the foundation should a proposal for it pass. equazcion 17:17, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)
• Question: why are edit notices included in this? It's a completely different scope and skill set, isn't it? --Stfg (talk) 19:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Response: Because per Misplaced Pages:EDITNOTICE, they are very simple templates. Hasteur (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

True, but none of the rationales for this proposal apply to editnotices. Just because they're in the Template namespace doesn't mean they should be lumped together with other templates. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Scope is arguable, but it's not a different skill set. Edit notices entail the same type of coding, as they're merely banners made of wikicode. Aside from editors' own talk page edit notices, access to edit notices is locked from most users under a similar precautionary principle rather than reasons of controversy etc. They fall under the category of things our many avid coders could contribute substantially to, but are currently barred from unnecessarily. Also, access to edit them is already granted via another non-admin rights group, account creator. It seemed appropriate to include it here. equazcion 19:28, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• Question - Unlike another proposed rights change under discussion lately, which would require editors to have a certain amount of experience before reviewing articles at Afc, this proposal gives more rights to some individuals. If 100 non-admins all speak in favour of this proposal, and no one opposed them, would they have the ability to implement this? Whose support is needed to create new user rights, and who would decide who gets them? —Anne Delong (talk) 23:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Administrators are generally the ones who close proposals, meaning they provide the final assessment on whether or not a proposal has passed. As admins have the responsibility to disregard their personal feelings when doing so, and are elected largely based on their perceived ability to do so, it wouldn't and generally doesn't matter if everyone who supports a proposal are non-admins. New rights and protection levels are enacted by the Wikimedia Foundation's developers. When a community proposal that requires their action closes as successful, a request is put in to them. There have been instances where the Foundation chose to override the community and refused to enact a community-supported proposal, but that has been rare -- and during the drafting process there were at least two developers who commented on this one and seemed open to the idea if the community was. equazcion 23:14, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)
  • PS. Several of the supporters on this page thus far are in fact administrators, in case that's relevant to your concern. equazcion 23:17, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

I think technically it could be implemented by sysops, (The ones who run the servers) as it would I think be only a change in a config file. Once the mechanics were implemented, the right would be granted by local admins in accordance with what ever guidelines the RFC Produces. Presumably, the protection level change to the new one would also be carried out by local admins. Note, that support for the proposal is actually higher amongst admins who have !voted then non-admins, so a refusal of admins to cooperate doesn't seem like it should be a problem. Monty₈₄₅ 23:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

^What he said :) Sysops and developers probably each have config access, and I'm not sure which would actually enact the initial change. It doesn't really matter. Either way (to answer your questions simply), barring the Foundation vetoing this, our admins would indeed be doing most of what needs to be done, as Monty says; which, if this passes, they would do, regardless of who voted. equazcion 23:39, 11 Sep 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who helped clarify this. This is the first time I've seen members of the community proposing to give themselves new rights, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't a pointless exercise. —Anne Delong (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• That raises a question that hasn't really been addressed. If the proposal passes, should all fully protected templates be changed to the new template protection (possibly by an admin bot), should we try to review every fully protected template with an eye towards reduction (7k+ templates), or should they be reviewed and reduced on an as requested basis? Monty₈₄₅ 23:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • That question is better left for a subsequent discussion as it is kind of putting the cart in front of the horse in my opinion. Technical 13 (talk) 00:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I imagine that one of those three options or some combination thereof would take place, though that's a logistic we can tackle when the time comes. Just a note though, the new protection level is intended to entirely replace full protection as the precautionary measure for high-risk templates, rather than only being applied to "reduce" the number of fully-protected templates. Full protection would be strictly reserved for extraordinary and temporary situations. equazcion 03:13, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• Some participants will have noticed that I have voted Support. This may appear to be a volte-face; it is not, and it is without prejudice to any current RfAs. The RfC proposal is very specific and as worded, I do not consider it to be an unbundling per se of admins' tools. The threshold requirements are very precise and I don't think that applications for it would be abused by new and/or inexperienced users, or hat-collectors. I see it very much in a similar way as, just for example, File Mover. How this new 'right' could/would be technically implemented is beyond the scope of this RfC - Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not really sure this changes much. If a template is already used on so many pages, I find it unlikely that there's going to be some error about it that has to be fixed, or anything the community collectively decides must be changed about it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. LazyBastardGuy 04:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Editing Main page templates

This is an important question I'd like to raise (and it seems like a good point to introduce a section break here): Will such a user right allow these people permission to edit the fully protected Main page templates? For those unaware, almost all of the text seen on the Main page is from templates. As the most visible page on Misplaced Pages, the Main Page has historically been one of the first targets of vandalism by a compromised admin account. And, in fact, a few compromised admins were blocked and privileges revoked on grounds of site security (this has led to the creation of editnotices like Template:Editnotices/Page/Main Page, warning admins of this). If the answer is yes, I hope there is no similar incident. I'm not opposed to them helping out editing Template:In the news, Template:Did you know, and the other Main page templates, but they better have strong passwords and follow appropriate personal security practices like regular admins. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I think I can answer my own question: It depends on if there is also consensus to set them to the newly-created protection level, or leave them at the existing full protection. It also depends on what cascading protection does to such pages: will it cancel the newly-created protection level and automatically apply full-protection? Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I can't speak for everyone, and I'm not seeking to answer this with any degree of finality; this is something that should probably be discussed, so I'm just contributing to that discussion. My own take on this is that we're vetting and trusting the people who get this right to handle it responsibly, and if anything, that means knowing that templates on the main page are to be handled with extra caution; that any changes involving code are to be sandboxed first, etc. As most of the people who end up with this right will know more about what they're doing with templates than the average admin (by mere virtue of the fact that they were vetted specifically for that purpose, and that most admins are not coders), the issue of compromised accounts is all that remains.

One could look at this as increasing the risk of compromised accounts being able to inflict damage, for the simple fact that there will be more accounts that could be compromised. The same would be true, then, if we added a lot of new admins. Each would be an equal risk , though a calculated one that we would be taking in exchange for a benefit. In fact we take a calculated risk whenever we appoint a new admin or grant other rights. I don't see any logical reason to treat template editors differently from admins when it comes to the measures taken in limiting the risk that their accounts might be compromised.

Compromised template editors, if those occur, would be handled in a manner similar to compromised admins -- the only difference being that template editors can have their right revoked much more easily, should it be deemed necessary. The eventual page for requesting this right should and will contain appropriate warnings and recommendations regarding security (and thanks for bringing up that excellent point).

I'm not fully versed in cascade protection but I'm thinking it will likely elevate the protections of child templates up the level of the parent. If the current practice is to cascade protect the main page itself at sysop level, that could mean template editors couldn't feasibly gain access to its templates. Depending on what the general feeling is regarding template editors editing main page templates, we could see if there are technical solutions that would allow it. equazcion 05:14, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)

My understanding is that the cascading protection system will create a major technical hurdle to implementation. I'd say we should just leave this off the table for now, and come back to it at some point in the future, after the rest of template space is under the new system. Monty₈₄₅ 05:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

That's my understanding as well. ( Though if you follow through the examples of the config parameter, there might be a way to work around it by making allowing the new protection level to be used for cascading. ) Agreed, that what to do with these pages are probably better decided after there is a feeling about how the new permission works in practice assuming that it passes. PaleAqua (talk) 06:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

We can't allow the new protection level to be used with cascading, because that would allow editors with the new userright to protect pages as well as just being able to edit them. (You can protect a page just by transcluding it on a cascade-protected page.) It's probably best to leave editing the Main page templates to admins. However, there are a lot of templates that are cascade-protected that don't really have to be. For example, {{db-meta}} is cascade-protected, but really doesn't need it - I think semi-protection would be a better fit. For templates like these we can simply remove cascading protection to allow editors with the new user right to edit them. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:23, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• I believe all of the pages on the main page are covered under cascading protection which granting permissions to isn't on this proposal after discussing this with developers saying that it wouldn't be feasible to implement for specific namespaces. The editors that drafted up this proposal wanted to make this as slimmed down as possible as a starting point so that the editors that would qualify for this right can get started. There were a few other things on the draft that got cut in this interest and may be brought up in a future RfC if this proposal passes. Thanks. Technical 13 (talk) 14:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Agreed. After some thought and reading the responses here, it does appear the main page wouldn't be feasibly editable by the new user group without getting rid of its cascade protection, which should probably be left as is for the time being. If in the future it should be deemed necessary this can always be re-examined. equazcion 14:12, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)

Cascade protection is a concern for me. The place where I want to work is cascade protected (Module:Citation/CS1). Policies and procedures defining Template editor user right need to have a mechanism that specifies how cascade protected pages are demoted to a protection level that allows template editor users to edit the pages.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Module:Citation/CS1 could just be removed from Misplaced Pages:Cascade-protected items, and its protection level could be dropped. For anything used on "real" cascading-protection pages, like the Main Page, there's no possible way to edit those without having the ability to protect and unprotect pages. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure that you're right that these pages could just be removed from Misplaced Pages:Cascade-protected items. But who does that? How would I as a template editor user initiate the protection change? What are the policies and procedures that requesters and admins need to observe to implement a protection change. If these things aren't defined now, they need to be. They really goes hand-in-hand with the adoption of this RfC, don't they?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I never realized cascading protection was such a mess. Was there ever a broadly participated discussion supporting how its being used both at Misplaced Pages:Cascade-protected items, and in the various user space versions of that? The use certainly isn't reflected at WP:CASCADE. I'd say sorting it out is probably beyond the scope of this RFC. Monty₈₄₅ 17:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

You just ask any admin to remove it from there, and hope they're willing to. So yes, it's a mess. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

While there are several areas where cascade protection will currently prevent template editors from editing directly, the vast majority of high-risk templates don't fall under that category. With the resistance met in the past regarding a rights group such as this one, and how seemingly close we are to it gaining acceptance now, I don't think it's wise to demand that this be a perfect solution at this point in time. The issues posed by cascade protection can be addressed from a logistical standpoint later on in view of the fact that the community supports trusted template editors having access to high-risk templates -- something that will have been demonstrated already if this RFC passes. The procedures surrounding cascade protection weren't adopted with something such as this proposal in mind, and I'm fairly confident that with relatively minor procedural addendums it can be dealt with. equazcion 17:48, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• An interesting point of this un-bundling discussion is what the end result will mean to admins. Certainly our rollbackers are more able to fight vandalism by assuming that right from the previously-exclusive admin domain. Will the administrators eventually be the only Wikipedians to hold the ban hammer, once all other powers are eventually devolved? Will admins primarily be responsible for negotiating solutions between warring editors? I think this is a step in the right direction, as Misplaced Pages has grown to large and diverse for our admins to manage. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed addition

While the technical aspects of cascading protection make this more-or-less a moot point, I think we should still explicitly state: Actual full "sysop" protection will then be available as an extraordinary measure in the Template and Module namespaces, to temporarily disallow editing by anyone but administrators, should the need arise. All templates and modules transcluded to the Main Page will remain permanently fully protected. (proposed addition underlined). — PublicAmpers& 16:04, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm wary of declaring that the main page will not be editable by the new rights group when the reasons that is currently the case are a bit muddy. It's at least due to a technical/logistical limitation, and if that changes at some point in the future, there's the question of whether it would still be be restricted on principle. I think it might be best to explain the issues surrounding the main page to anyone who might express concerns about it as they come, if they come. My humble opinion. equazcion 18:11, 12 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• The trouble I have with saying permanently is that the Main page is dynamic and constantly changing, so what is transcluded on it one day is not necessarily going to be the next day. Also, I'm thinking that adding something like that distracts the current question posed of "Should there be a new template_editor group to allow editors who demonstrate competence in those areas to edit non-cascading protected templates, modules, and editnotices without opening those conceivably higher risk areas to those that may wish to do harm to the encyclopedia?" If/When, this proposal passes, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to hash out extra privileges and/or restrictions in a future RfC. Technical 13 (talk) 18:39, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Watchlist notice

I think this discussion affects enough editors that it would benefit from a watchlist notice. Do others think this is a good idea? — Mr. Stradivarius 12:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. equazcion 12:54, 13 Sep 2013 (UTC)

If only we had an administrator to do it! Oh wait... Yep! Technical 13 (talk) 13:53, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I've added a suggestion to MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details. I don't want to implement it myself, at least not right away, as I was involved in the drafting of the RfC. Maybe if there are no objections after a few days then I can add it. I want to give editors who watchlist that page a chance to comment on it first, though. — Mr. Stradivarius 14:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please do it. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:53, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Now added. — Mr. Stradivarius 23:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I DONT KNOW WHAT ANY OF THIS MEANS BUT IT CAME up on my watchlist so I thought I'd tell you here. Thank you. New England Cop (talk) 01:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Alternative measures

I haven't !voted in this and don't intend to. I find the arguments of WDGraham, above quite convincing and if this RfC is unsuccessful then I think WDGraham's comments could inspire some alternative measures. Specifically:

• Is there any guidance on sandboxing for templates? If people knew the most efficient way of doing it they might be more easily persuaded. Perhaps we should write some. Or if there is already a really good essay (or similar) on this, perhaps it just needs a little advertising.
• What is the best way to reduce the amount of pre-emptive protection of templates? Are there currently some fully protected templates that should be semi or even not protected?

Yaris678 (talk) 09:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

To expand upon my comment about preemptive protection, a good example is Module:Citation/CS1, which was the template at the centre of the RfA which seems to have sparked this discussion. Yes, it's widely used, but it's an obscure subpage which isn't transcluded directly into articles - on average it gets less than 30 hits per day. I don't think disruptive users are likely to find it and if they do it'll be at a manageable rate - and they'll be reverted before it propagates to articles. --W. D. Graham 10:18, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Significant changes to critical templates are already sandboxed. The problems are, among other things, a lack of admins who know what they're doing enough to confirm and implement changes. There are quite literally almost none who actually handle the {{editprotected}} queue, and a couple who do it simply to help out since otherwise nothing would ever get done implement edits on blind faith that the coder knows what they're doing.

CS1 and other relatively lesser-known modules could actually be said to be more dangerous than the average high-use template, as since it's barely watched by anyone, and it's a low-level technical template, problems wouldn't be traced to it swiftly. In fact there was a time when deeply-transcluded and relatively unknown templates were nearly the only ones that got fully protected, for that reason.

We could debate the pervasiveness of the preemptive protection practice, but that's been done, as this isn't a new issue. This latest proposal was sparked by user Trappist and his CS1 work, but there is a long history of proposals to create trusted user groups that are allowed to edit "through protection". All have failed, primarily because they touched on the principle of "unbundling" administrative tools (so that a single administrative power can be assigned without assigning them all). This proposal to strictly limit the permission to template work where a proven need and aptitude is demonstrated comes out of the dust of those as an effort to cut through and around the everlasting controversy and drama surrounding "unbundling", and perhaps finally, after years of this, get our vast supply of good coders, who are willing and able to help, the access that would allow them to.

There are many alternatives that one could say are more ideal; the problem is getting them implemented in a divided community. Many of them have already been tried, discussed, debated, proposed. This is not a new issue. If this proposal can at least be a compromise, that many might not be enthralled with but could perhaps at least tolerate, maybe we can finally take an actual progressive step this time. equazcion 11:15, 15 Sep 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment