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Editor refusing to explain closure of MR against consensus

The move review discussion for 30 seconds to mars,was recently closed by User:Jreferee as no consensus despite only seven !votes being cast and of those only two were to endorse closure. Two editors including myself have requested an explanation with no result. Could someone please either get an explanation for their actions against consensus or reverse the disputed closure. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I think this ANI thread is a little early. Earthh asked the question and 8 hours later you took the issue to ANI. Give it 24 to 48 hours from Earthh's message and then come here.--v/r - TP 22:22, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Jreferee did respond; PantherLeapord's own behavior is cause of the breakdown in communication.--Cúchullain /c 00:55, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• Observation: The problem is that the 2 overturn-pending-explanation votes were not adjusted after the explanation is given. However, even when you toss those 2 votes out, there are 2 endorse close, 4 overturn, 1 relist. That is still sufficient evidence that the move is not supported, and the MR should not have been closed as such. - Penwhale | 04:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Jreferee just replied with the following:

The move review close was based on the strength of arguments regarding whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly. In other words, it was a review of whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly, not whether the close was correct or incorrect. The iVotes that addressed the sufficiency of the close explanation were not directed to whether closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly. SmokeyJoe only wanted an explanation, which BDD provided. SmokeyJoe did not provide much argument, so it seemed to be a week endorse. B2C appeared to indicated that B2C adopted BDD’s explanation, giving strength to B2C position as endorse. Cúchullain and BDD both had strong endorse arguments, with BDD close additionally benefitting from closer’s discretion. On the overturn side, there were strong arguments and additional comments which addressed whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly to varying degrees. BDDs additional details on his close (18:34, 28 August 2013) was there for twelve days, but did not significantly move the discussion one way or another. I did not see a general sense of agreement one way or another. Since BDDs additional details on his close seemed to quell general concern for his close and there appeared to be no consensus in the move review, which has the same effect as endorse close, I close the review as endorse close.

What confuses me is that this implies that votes not going either way were to be interpreted as "endorse". Is that how things are supposed to be done normally? PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 04:40, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• I have asked B2C and SmokeyJoe to comment here, as their comments (and lack of follow-up) contributed (inadvertently, most likely) to this report. - Penwhale | 05:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm interested to see how this turns out. I was initially alarmed when an administrator, Jreferee, was upset with PantherLeapord because, quite frankly, I don't want him to make any mistakes since I was his mentor a bit ago after he got into a bit of trouble and sought out the adopt-a-user program. However, quite frankly, there's no way this should have proceeded this way by my definition of "consensus." Though it may be wiki-career suicide, I, too, disagree with the actions of Jreferee. However, with that said, I'll stop short of accusing anything more than a hasty or accidental action. I've certainly made worse mistakes than this. I do think that the decision should be reversed, but Jreferee, who has a history of very positive contributions, should simply duly note this, and everyone should move on. --Jackson Peebles (talk • contribs) 06:21, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Jreferee spoke about the endorses but not the overturs. The majority of the users expressed an overturn, so there's a consensus. Almost everyone in the move review wrote that at the requested move there was no consensus to move the page to the current title.--Earthh (talk) 13:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• Looking at the whole; even the comments presents the official name is "Thirty Seconds". I like how the argument against "Thirty Seconds" is the Allmusic usage of "30 seconds...", but the title is "Thirty Seconds" and the url changes as well to match it.. Further evidence comes from the "Awards" which all list "Thirty Seconds". MTV also lists "Thirty Seconds". The official website is "Thirty Seconds to Mars". Now let's not get into the limitations of Twitter where the short-hand is adequate. BBC uses it, but here is the interesting thing, other websites use "Thirty Seconds" and aside from the Youtube, the major sites all use it. If anything, the usage in authoritative (not short hand) form is for "Thirty Seconds" and Misplaced Pages is a professional-level encyclopedia and should reflect that in both prose and title. The prose says "Thirty Seconds" not "30 seconds" throughout and when weighing the factors, seems to be a clear choice. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• You should read my comments on the move review. AllMusic changed the name recently, it was 30 Seconds to Mars when I posted it, but if you read the biography, they still use 30 Seconds to Mars. This also underline the fact that the "Thirty Seconds" is a new name. Since 1998 the band has been using "30 Seconds" while "Thirty Seconds" is used from 2013 onwards, that's why "Thirty Seconds" should remain a redirect (read WP:COMMONNAME).--Earthh (talk) 14:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hey, I just am pointing out what I see. For professionalism we should use the official name when it is recognized internationally as such, short or long form of "Thirty". Let's not get into the Manning issue, but this is not out of the Prince (musician) issue and its not like "Mammoth" to "Van Halen", but just whether or not you write out the number or don't. For appearances and professionalism combined with the adoption and official use of "Thirty" and not "30", the official use should trump over a shortening no matter how prevalent. Examples to this are rather rare, yes, but Misplaced Pages is the sole major site that doesn't use "Thirty". ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• They currently use both "30 Seconds" and "Thirty Seconds". 30 Seconds to Mars has been the official name since 1998, only in 2013 Thirty Seconds to Mars became the official name. 30 Seconds to Mars should remain the title of the article since it has been the official name for almost the entire band's career and we should write that more recently the band is also known as Thirty Seconds to Mars.--Earthh (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• I think that you guys are getting a bit off-topic. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 23:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I failed to follow-up after posting this in the move review:

• Pending explanation - This close should have been made with a full explanation of how the closer found consensus in favor of the move. If this explanation is provided, as an addendum to the RM, and it's reasonable, I will fully endorse. Otherwise I will support an overturn. --B2C 06:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

However, the closer, BDD (talk · contribs) did provide a full explanation:

• Some editors here have asked for an explanation of the close: here goes. There were no real policy-based arguments to weigh. The nominator claimed the move per WP:COMMONNAME; the oppose voters thought the status quo was the common name. No one bothered to dredge up evidence. (And no, their Facebook and Twitter don't count; those "sources" conflicted anyway.) So I went with a headcount. After about two and a half weeks without decent arguments, I went with the majority position. So there you go. Not the most elegant decision, but you make closes with the arguments you have, not the arguments you might wish to have.

I disagree with BDD's finding; I think absent a policy based argument favoring the move, it was at best "no consensus". Finding WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in favor for the move by finding a marginal majority of such a small self-selected sample through counting !votes is not a reasonable explanation. If I had followed up, I would not have endorsed (I wish someone would have notified me to follow up before closing the move review...). Overturn.

What's relevant here is that my input should not have been viewed as an endorse in the closing of the move review. --B2C 23:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• I think closing it as no consensus is ridiculous. There's a 2.5-to-1 majority against endorsing the original closure, and this smacks as the SECOND !supervote in this case. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:43, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • You think closing "it" as no consensus is ridiculous? By "it" do you mean the original RM, or the RM review?

    You think "this" smacks as the SECOND !supervote in "this case"? What is the first "this" referring to? Does "this case" refer to the original RM, the RM review, or this ANI review of the RM review? --B2C 17:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• For fuck's sake, if you're going to make this pointless/stupid of a comment, then don't bother commenting at all. As a ten year old could tell, the move review closure is what was closed as no consensus (the RM wasn't closed as no consensus), both closures have been !supervote's, and you're wasting people's time when you attempt to distract from people's comments like this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
  • In my comment I wrote that the original RM (BDD's finding) was "at best 'no consensus'". You replied to that saying you "think closing it as no consensus is ridiculous". There was no way to know you were referring to the no consensus result that actually occurred at the RM review, and not to the "at best" comment I made about the original RM. Anyway, thanks for the clarification. We agree the no consensus finding in the RM review is incorrect. --B2C 04:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that during the requested move, the nominator had been canvassing, leaving a message on User:Noyes388 talk page to notify him of the requested move, which he supported (read this).--Earthh (talk) 19:19, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

• Overturn per above post by myself and failure to adequately explain actions in the interim as well as the input of B2C and PantherLeapord. --Jackson Peebles (talk) 22:18, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn original MR closure - Clearly a textbook supervote and should be reversed ASAP. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that we found a consensus. Could someone proceed and restore the original name?--Earthh (talk) 12:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. The RM review and the original RM both need to be overturned. --B2C 04:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• The information page Misplaced Pages:Closing discussions provides process regarding Requested moves and reviewing requested moves. Consensus was decided at the Requested Move proposal and that close was reviewed at Move Review. Some of the same editors in the move request or move review discussions wanting to continue their move positions or move request positions in this AN thread. However, the discussion close and review of that close process provides for closure so that the community can move on. In regards to the request of this AN thread - "Editor refusing to explain closure of MR against consensus" - I was happy to provided it. In further details of that, I do appreciate the above feedback, but my reasoning reposted 04:40, 10 September 2013 above from here is still valid. I close the Move Review based on strength of arguments regarding whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly. I considered, but gave less weight, to arguments that merely posted a conclusory statement or did not focus on strength of arguments regarding whether the closer interpreted the consensus incorrectly on arguments. B2C posted, "This close should have been made with a full explanation of how the closer found consensus in favor of the move. If this explanation is provided, as an addendum to the RM, and it's reasonable, I will fully endorse. Otherwise I will support an overturn." BDD provided that explanation on 28 August 2013, B2C did not reply, and the discussion was closed 9 September 2013, so I think reasonable to have seen B2C's position as fully endorse and give it the weight I did (more than SmokeyJoe, less than Cúchullain and BDD), within the confines of that discussion. B2C's position in the move review does not make or break the close any more than any one position does. In looking at the discussion as a whole, the collective move review endorse and overturn arguments - which both fell in the spectrum of weak to strong arguments - resulted in both sides providing strong arguments in their reasoning of whether BDD's interpreted the requested move proposal consensus incorrectly. There was no general sense of agreement one way or another. -- Jreferee (talk) 16:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

And the community has disagreed with that reading. Please do the right thing and undo your closure. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 01:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

When I wrote my comment at the RM review saying I endorsed pending a reasonable explanation from BDD, I fully expected BDD to provide a reasonable explanation. I was so sure about that, I neglected to come back and check until I was notified about this ANI discussion on my user talk page. My bad. Surprisingly, the explanation provided by BDD on 28 August 2013 was, frankly, borderline pathetic. Certainly not reasonable:

Some editors here have asked for an explanation of the close: here goes. There were no real policy-based arguments to weigh. The nominator claimed the move per WP:COMMONNAME; the oppose voters thought the status quo was the common name. No one bothered to dredge up evidence. (And no, their Facebook and Twitter don't count; those "sources" conflicted anyway.) So I went with a headcount. After about two and a half weeks without decent arguments, I went with the majority position. So there you go. Not the most elegant decision, but you make closes with the arguments you have, not the arguments you might wish to have. --BDD (talk) 18:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

"No real policy-based arguments to weigh". And, yet, BDD found consensus? That's reasonable?

"So I went with a headcount...I went with a majority decision". That's reasonable?

Finding consensus in such a vacuum is exactly the kind of RM decision that needs to be reversed, and your RM review failing to see that is exactly the kind of RM Review decision that needs to be reversed. For the record, I have no position on the original RM question. I have no personal preference (never heard of the topic before), and don't know which meets COMMONNAME better. --B2C 19:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I am seriously considering taking this to arbcom unless the closure is reversed even if it is only so the community's will can be enacted. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 22:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Thirty Seconds to Mars (also commonly stylized as 30 Seconds to Mars) is an American rock band from Los Angeles, formed in 1998

• RM1: The result of the move request was: not moved. @Jenks24: (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
• RM2: The result of the proposal was moved. --@BDD: (talk) 18:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
• MR: Thirty Seconds to Mars – Endorse Close. - There is no consensus in the move review, which has the same effect as Endorse Close. No action is required on the article title. -- @Jreferee: (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

On a re-reading of the above discussions I see: RM1 was clear. RM2 was a stretch to close this way, and definitely so if RM1 is considered. MR is a cautious "no consensus" that another admin may have read a rough consensus for Overturn or Relist.

• Is Jreferee at fault?

1. Could another another admin agree with the close? Yes Jreferee's close is defensible, and well defensible in isolation.
2. Did the closer have a COI or was he otherwise INVOLVED? No
3. Is there now so great a problem that it can't be worked on? No

No, Jreferee is not at fault. This discussion does not really belong at ANI. But where? So, ways forward?

(1) Jreferee could unclose the MR so that it might receive further attention.

(2) A fresh RM could be intiated to reverse the close on the basis that there was never a consensus to move (undermining the standing of the MR process and returning to the old endless "If you don't like the RM result, start a new one").

(3) Do nothing (offensive to an ordinary editor who believes that both BDD and Jreferee erred).

(4) Initiate #2 as an RfC.

(5) Go to Arb Com (my view: in the absence of even an allegation of poor conduct by any user, they should see no role for arb com in this question).

I recommend #1, failing that then #4. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:14, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, I suggested (1) on Jreferee's talk page. I suggest others encourage him as well. If he refuses to comply with our requests, I agree #4 is the best course of action. --B2C 23:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

No response, yet. --B2C 22:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Repeated WP:GAME violations

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I know people are tired of the Falklands units dispute, but I'm bringing this here because I really want it to stop.

User:Martinvl has spent the past four and a half years trying to push his POV on units on Falklands articles. His tactics have rarely reached above the standard of gaming the system, trying to force his POV by literally any means possible. I posted this evidence last night on the talk page currently under RFC here. Given his comment today I think it wants greater attention.

The RFC is, in and of itself, a clear example of gaming the system. He claims that it is not allowed for WikiProjects to have their own style guides, even where they only cover matters irrelevant outside the topic. I've pointed out that many do - one two three have all been brought up there. His insistence is that this must either be a Misplaced Pages-wide guideline or else a "failed proposal". He is ttempting to force an untoward interpretation of policy, or impose one's own novel view of "standards to apply" rather than those of the community.

Martin has spent the last year or so insisting that the page at hand never had consensus. I suggest we look at the history:

The page came into use in practice in July 2010. Neither Martin nor anyone else objected, though at that time it was rolled out across the WikiProject (a big change because the previous consensus was imperial-first everywhere). The single opponent (not Martin) opposed because he did not believe it would be implemented in good faith. In March 2011 Martin told users to follow it "to the letter". In June 2011 Martin was citing it () to back up his edits. In October 2012 he redirected it, and was reverted some time later when someone noticed (his claimed premise was rejected by RFC - also an apparent attempt at gaming). On 28 November 2012 he was still quoting it as a rationale for his edits. The very next day, he claimed it was never consensus. Martin treated the page as a consensus for well over two years - acted for all the world as though it was the standing consensus - and then one day he decided it never did. Stale? No, because Martin is still making that claim.

I contend that the insistence that the page never achieved consensus is another example of gaming the system. Again, ttempting to force an untoward interpretation of policy, or impose one's own novel view of "standards to apply" rather than those of the community. An involved admin said in reference to precisely this situation that "anybody who is disruptive should have been sanctioned" (top part) - well I am asking for that sanction, as the disruption is still ongoing.

There are other examples. From making controversial edits on these topics under the disguise of misleading edit summaries to the argument that geography is "scientific" for the purposes of MOSNUM. I could go on and on.

I bring this up here now because he now one again trying to push that geography point. On previous evidence, his argument is that as geography is a science, geographic distances should not just be kilometres-first, but kilometres-only. And not just on Falklands articles or UK-related articles. By this interpretation, the article Nebraska may not mention miles at all. Is there anyone here who believes that this is what WP:UNITS says or means - even in theory?

I contend that this is arguing the word of policy to defeat the principles of policy and puriously and knowingly claiming protection, justification or support under the words of a policy, for a viewpoint or stance which actually contradicts policy. And based on this comment I contend that the gaming has not ended, and will not end with the moratorium proposed there.

We have seen this sort of gaming continually from Martin on these articles the last four and a half years. This has been massively damaging to the topic. We cannot continue like this. Given that Martin will not stop on his own, he must be stopped by admins.

I ask for Martinvl to be topic banned, such that he is not allowed to add, modify, discuss or otherwise edit or have anything to do with units of measure on Falklands-related articles, or the rules that govern them, in order to prevent the disruption that this continual gaming causes. Kahastok talk 21:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

This looks like sour grapes from not getting the wished-for consensus about metric units at the Falkland Islands, spillover from the above discussion: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Kahastok_is_disrupting_a_GA_attempt. I don't think you have a strong enough case to ban the guy who keeps you from getting your way. Binksternet (talk) 22:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Which wished-for consensus do you think I want? I was perfectly happy to leave it with the status quo, the consensus for WP:FALKLANDSUNITS which Martin suddenly and out-of-the-blue insisted never existed. I'm not entirely happy with the way the vote is going there, but the best thing for the article is for the whole thing to end. Now. Rather than in two or three years' time when after I or others have come here six or seven times to point out that the same thing is still going on, after who knows how many more editors have been driven away and after who knows how much improvement to the article will have been prevented.

I believe it is clear from Martin's comments that even with an (apparently toothless) moratorium we're not done here because Martin will continue to try and game the rule being proposed.

The only reason we have to keep on having this discussion is because Martin keeps insisting on bringing it up. And whenever he brings it up it's with yet another ruse to try and WP:GAME the system. Do you think that these articles are best off with endless discussion on units of measure, where there is practically no trust to be found because one editor keeps on gaming the system? I don't. Kahastok talk 22:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I think FALKLANDSUNITS should not exist. Binksternet (talk) 00:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

So, in your opinion, does that make it OK to repeatedly game the system in this area? Bear in mind that WP:FALKLANDSUNITS itself is one of the few agreed rules that he has not managed to game here. His focus is on removing it and using instead something more easily-gamable, like WP:UNITS. Kahastok talk 06:09, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• First off: I have just full-protected WP:FALKLANDSUNITS for 2 weeks because the editors can't seem to get together and discuss. That being said, I believe outside views are necessary. - Penwhale | 22:27, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
• If WP:FALKLANDSUNITS is redundant to the existing WP:MOS, then should it not be MfDed? If it contradicts the MOS, then it shouldn't be valid either... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• As far as I see, it is redundant to the MOS. I linked to MOS:CONVERSIONS in the still open thread, where it covers the same things as WP:FALKLANDSUNITS, which is where the absurdity comes in. There is some sort of pro-<insert your units of preference>-comes-first thing going on, which some editors are trying to get locked in stone as a policy for articles relating the Falklands only. Ridiculous. Blackmane (talk) 12:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

It has to be absolutely prescriptive because there is so much gaming going on. If we could trust editors to edit within the spirit of WP:UNITS then there would not be a problem with not having any additional rule. But we can't, so there is. The point of this ANI is to put us in a position where we can trust editors to edit within the spirit of WP:UNITS, so that the impact of the change is lessened. Kahastok talk 17:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

This seems to be about a proposal under discussion at Talk:Falkland Islands#Weights and Measures Proposal in which Martinvl made the clever support of a motion to get rid of WP:FALKLANDUNITS, while interpreting WP:UNITS in a novel way that most other people voicing their support think is incorrect. Due to this, Kahastok has decided to oppose the proposal even though it is based on his own statement. Blocking or banning anyone or everyone involved for such a trivial cause seems overkill. (The argument has been added to WP:LAME - and not by me.) Adding voices to the proposal seems simpler and more likely to keep well meaning editors. --GRuban (talk) 16:42, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

FWIW I was already opposed for lack of enforcement, a point that I have always made clear is needed if we're ever going to stop this from continually coming up. If there's supposed to be a moratorium, that's a waste of time if it's going to be ignored just as soon as Martin decides he doesn't like the rule proposed, and starts the entire argument back up again. And, based on experience, he will find an excuse - almost certainly one that violates WP:GAME. In the past we had people coming back to the page every three weeks (for well over a year) claiming that they wanted to see if consensus had changed this time. Admins did nothing about it then either.

Frankly, the way this conversation is going demonstrates why simply hoping he'll improve this time and saying call in the admins if he doesn't is futile and why we need explicit enforcement provisions. Kahastok talk 17:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• You do realize that the only other person who supports the same viewpoint as you is a community banned sockmaster? Perhaps that should show you that you may be wrong as well? I'm inclined to agree with Martinvl if he says FALKLANDSUNITS is redundant/invalid/whatever - because it is. A few people here have voiced the opinion that FALKLANDSUNITS should go. And your accusations of WP:GAME seem to be lacking in evidence, support, and seem to be incorrect as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:45, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, no, that's not true. There are enough of us who've had enough of this debate, and enough of us who have a problem with the attempts at forcing the point. I am far from the the only one who said that this required a moratorium, and I am not exactly the only one who opposed in the poll, on the basis that it was not strong enough against gaming.

It is disappointing that you feel that instead of actually discussing genuine content issues, we should have to spend our entire time arguing over units of measure interminably, watching Martin try every trick in the book, and a few that are not, to enforce his POV.

I must admit, I have no idea what you think would violate WP:GAME. It seems to me that if repeatedly Wikilawyering and deliberately twisting the word of policy in attempt to force his POV - directly against the spirit of those same policies - is not gaming then nothing is. Let us not pretend that Martin is not an editors of many years' standing and who is well acquainted with the nuances of policy.

I find the fact that you make the attack about sockpuppets demonstrates the weakness of your point - it is ad hominem, and has nothing to do with anything in particular. The fact that your community banned sockmaster is a community banned sockmaster does not mean that he does not occasionally make good points. While we might revert the edits of the banned, we must always look toward the good of the encyclopædia, and it may well be that the good of the encyclopædia means accepting that even sockpuppets can make good and relevant points that, if they were supported by anyone else, would be significant here. Kahastok talk 21:37, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• Rubbish on several counts there. There is absolutely no need for WP:FALKLANDSUNITS to exist - it either is superfluous to the MOS, or it goes against it; your accusations of WP:GAME, which are STILL lacking in any provided evidence, are not relevant as to whether FALKLANDSUNITS is superfluous or not. We do not write guidelines just to make one editor's actions invalid, that would be pointless. ANI is not for content issues anyway. And cut out the "ad hominem" bullshit - the only editor who has come to ANI and who has made the same points as you have is a community-banned sockmaster. Ergo, no one really supports your desire to topic ban this user, and certainly not as strongly as you, or the community-banned sockmaster, do. I could equally state that your opening of multiple ANI threads is an attempt to game the system, or forcing the point, or Wikilawyering, and the fact that they're present on this page or recent archives is stronger evidence than anything you've provided. And community-banned users can NEVER contribute to any debate, as that defeats the entire fucking point of a community ban, and their comments should be reverted the moment that the account/IP is found to be that community-banned user... Either provide evidence to show that he is truly violating WP:GAME, or drop the stick, and stop filing ANI threads willy-nilly. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:40, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Now that's definitely ad hominem.

Let's start with the basics. How many ANI threads do you think I have opened here recently? I can't find any before this one within the last six months. So far as I can tell, the only other ANI that I have started in the last year was this one in December 2012, in which I objected to an editor disruptively reassigning Yugoslavia to Serbia on articles about sporting events. It seems to me that this is hardly "filing ANI threads willy-nilly". If you believe I am wrong, please prove it with diffs or links to the archives. If you cannot, please desist from throwing around wild accusations.

I have provided evidence to demonstrate my concerns here. Read my first comment and you'll see plenty. Do you not think that suddenly and out-of-the-blue insisting that a consensus that has held for three years was never consensus is not gaming? Do you not think that trying to force a totally novel interpretation of the MOS, that is clearly against the spirit of that rule and the application of the rule on all other articles, is gaming? As I say, I am at a loss to think what you might consider gaming since these would seem to fall perfectly into the conduct described at WP:GAME.

WP:FALKLANDSUNITS documents a consensus. It does not merely repeat WP:UNITS: rather, it makes it clear that WP:UNITS is to be interpreted prescriptively on Falklands articles. Even if the current proposal on Talk:Falkland Islands goes through, it will still be useful in documenting the consensus for a prescriptive interpretation of WP:UNITS, and also documenting the consensus that the Falklands are UK-related for the purposes of WP:UNITS. Both are points that editors have tried to game in the past. There are lots and lots of projects out there that have their own style guides, and there is no reason why the Falklands should not be allowed to as well, documenting points that are relevant only to that particular project.

Finally, it would be exceedingly foolish to dogmatically dismiss any comment without considering its contents - even if the point was made by a sockpuppet. There is no policy that says you are not allowed to agree with somebody who raises a good point, sockpuppet or not. To take an extreme example, if a sockpuppet points out that a negative claim in a BLP is unsourced and unlikely, we aren't going to leave it unchanged just because it was a sockpuppet who said it. Trying to argue guilt by association is unhelpful and not exactly likely to calm tempers. Kahastok talk 17:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

And what if "consensus" goes against policy? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:03, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't. WP:UNITS provides for a mix of units and WP:FALKLANDSUNITS mirrors that mix. The list of units applied is the same. So it isn't an issue. Kahastok talk 06:20, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't answer the question. What if "consensus" does go against policy? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

If it does not answer the question, it is because the question is not relevant to our current position. Ultimately, it depends on the precise circumstances of your hypothetical situation. Kahastok talk 14:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that there are two unanswered requests for clarification relating to a suspected conflict of interest wrt metric/imperial/customary systems of units to this editor at User_talk:Martinvl#A_serious_question and User_talk:Martinvl#September_2013. The answer to those may have a bearing on this discussion. R.stickler (talk) 06:27, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Given how often he quotes them as a source, it is clear that Martin is well aware of the UK Metric Association, and it is blindingly obvious from his editing that he favours metrication.

But I find it difficult to see what difference it makes if a biased editor happens to support an organisation that shares that POV. Bias is not conflict of interest. Though he has been known to cite UKMA arguments as fact (John Wilkins is still prominently featured as a major force behind the metric system - an important UKMA argument because they're trying to defeat the notion that the metric system is un-British - despite this discussion), I cannot see Martin's citing the UKMA as a source as "getting the word out" type activity and thus illegitimate under WP:COI. Kahastok talk 14:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I think it is important to state that WP:FALKLANDSUNITS and WP:MOSNUM are not the same.

• Falklandsunits says: In general, put metric units first and follow with imperial and US customary units as appropriate. Where this would create significant inconsistency with the exceptions to this rule noted below, put imperial units first and follow with metric and US customary units. Articles should be internally consistent with respect to the units used in a given context.
• MOSNUM is descriptive: "In non-science UK-related articles... imperial units are still used as the main units in some contexts, including...miles..."
• FALKLANDSUNITS is prescriptive: "For geographical distances onshore (including coastlines), use statute miles or yards and follow with kilometres or metres"
• There is currently a vote at Talk:Falkland Islands to decide whether to follow MOSNUM or FALKLANDSUNITS. As editors here have expressed concern about FALKLANDSUNITS they might be interested to contribute to that decision-making process.

Michael Glass (talk) 15:54, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The first point simply isn't true, unless you interpret "significant inconsistency" in the way Michael does, which is to say that any article that is not rigorously metric or rigorously imperial is significantly inconsistent. Even if you use miles once in the first paragraph and Celsius once in the twenty-fourth, with no other measurements. WP:UNITS does not advocate such an interpretation, and makes it clear that in non-scientific UK-related articles a mixture (reflecting British usage and based on the style guide of Britain's newspaper of record) is OK.

It is worth bearing in mind that Michael used to go around adding metric measurements to Falklands articles that were otherwise entirely imperial-first, and then use MOSNUM's then-rule on consistency as an excuse to convert the entire article to metric. For a while Michael and Martin were engaged in adding any metric measurement they could find to any Falklands-related article they could find - frequently not even bothering to put the measurements into full sentences. I note that the clause concerned has never been used to push imperial units in any circumstance in which they were controversial, or to in any way subvert the spirit of WP:UNITS.

The second point I have already made clear. Yes, it is prescriptive. When things are as controversial as this, prescriptive is good because it reduces scope for people making argument like one of Michael's past favourites, "can is not must", as an excuse for pushing something that goes against the spirit of the guideline. You might understand where Michael is coming from here given that his own record of gaming the system is so bad that his proposals at WT:MOSNUM are now routinely dismissed as being in bad faith. When it comes down to it, it is not a violation of WP:UNITS to follow WP:UNITS prescriptively.

The discussion on Talk:Falkland Islands is not about "whether to follow MOSNUM or FALKLANDSUNITS". That is a misrepresentation. What would in fact happen is that FALKLANDSUNITS would be replaced with a version that references WP:UNITS more directly. It would, notably, be just as prescriptive as WP:FALKLANDSUNITS in its current incarnation. I have opposed it because it lacks enforcement and because I can see the entire discussion flaring up again in a few months time when Martin decides he wants to push his POV again. Kahastok talk 16:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

The first point not true? Well, look at Falkland Islands. Every metric measurement appears to be firmly in second place. An obvious effect of the "significant inconsistency" rule is in operation here, for British geographical articles are usually all metric or all metric except for the use of miles for distances.

His second point sounds like a dastardly plot, except that almost all the information I and others found happened to be metric. Kahastok is constantly battling with editors to keep the metrics in second place,

The third point about MOSNUM is that the wording is ambiguous. The words "are still used" can be read as a description or a recommendation. This doesn't matter so much for miles but when football codes and the BBC use kilos and metres and the guidelines are about still using stones and pounds, feet and inches, there's an issue if you want consistency in player profiles. And, yes, Kahastok and his mates are well represented in MOSNUM so he's got the numbers there to keep the present wording. These editors seem to fear that leaving it to the good sense of editors to decide in cases of divided usage will lead to chaos, or worse, metrication!

The fourth point is a power grab. If MOSNUM is as prescriptive as FALKLANDSUNITS then why isn't Kahastok satisfied? Because Kahastok wants ENFORCEMENT. He wants to enforce his interpretation of Wiki policy on others, and topic ban anyone who is too uppity or determined. Now this might suit the British Weights and Measures Society, but it's not suitable for Misplaced Pages. It need to be resisted. Michael Glass (talk) 17:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

In that case you clearly haven't looked at Falkland Islands very hard. I note that there is a current process of rewriting the article (which is being inevitably delayed by the decision of some to restart this debate), and that the current wording does not represent a standing consensus at this time. As I pointed out earlier in the discussion, if the article does not live up to WP:FALKLANDSUNITS, nobody is stopping anyone from bringing it into line - or they weren't until the page was protected.

The second point you make is part of your push for source-based units, a system that has been rejected on dozens of occasions (all at your proposal) at WT:MOSNUM, to the extent that such proposals are not considered to be in good faith at WT:MOSNUM. I am not "constantly battling" - I'd rather not have this discussion at all. This is why I am doing what I'm doing here - to ensure that the current discussion is (so far as is possible) the end to this discussion. The fact is that the continual attempts to restart this debate are horrifically disruptive.

On the third, the fact is most divided contexts are already metric-first according to WP:UNITS. That's things like land area and hill height. You claim BBC usage, but the fact is that the BBC has no published in-house style on units (if they did we would probably use it) so their usage is hard to pin down. It's only the contexts that are overwhelmingly imperial-first in UK usage that are mentioned in the MOS, which is based on an external style guide.

And the fourth simply isn't true. But the fact is that if the rules were not being so continuously gamed we would not still be having this problem. I note that the proposal is to apply WP:UNITS for UK-related articles prescriptively - and that would be documented at WP:FALKLANDSUNITS. The reason I want prescriptive units is because we need an end to this discussion. The reason I want the consensus to be enforceable is because we need an end to this discussion.

If we do not have prescriptive units, then in all likelihood we'll be back in the position we were in before WP:FALKLANDSUNITS was agreed, with Michael and Martin restarting the topic every three weeks claiming that they want to see if consensus has changed this time, and WP:POINTily adding metric units against the agreed consensus purely on the basis that "can is not must". Ridiculous but true. Far from ending the debate, it would make it a far more continual feature on these talk pages.

And finally, I note that this is not the place to deal with the content dispute, so it's probably better to leave that to the three or four places it's already taking place. (Oh, and this is the only one of those discussions that I started as well.) Kahastok talk 17:52, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Kahastok, if the Falkland Islands article is more imperial than MOSNUM or even FALKLANDSUNITS allows, then that isn't the fault of anyone you have clashed with in the matter of units.

The test of usage is usage. Look at the player profiles on the BBC and they're metric only. Like this. It's a neat piece of wikilawyering to demand a style guide, but the usage is as I described it. That's why the British Weights and Measures Association is critical of the BBC. But it's not only the BBC. It's also the Premier League. I could give other examples, but suffice it to say that usage is mixed. And mixed usage is a good reason for not being dogmatic. The style guides themselves are mixed. Prescriptively following the letter of one of them, no matter how august, while ignoring its admonition to "...keep abreast of the trend in the UK to move gradually towards all-metric use," is silly.

You say that really the problem is people gaming the rules. But it's not gaming the rules to interpret them slightly differently. Or if it is gaming the rules to interpret them too loosely, then it's certainly gaming to interpret them too prescriptively and then trying to get someone topic banned. The rules of Misplaced Pages should not be used to fight the good fight on behalf of the British Weights and Measures Association.

Kahastok, look around you. You are in a minority of one here. Ask yourself why everybody in this thread is out of step - except you. Michael Glass (talk) 02:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

It is not Wikilawyering to point out trying to infer a policy for the BBC from the units they happen to use on a given page or group of pages, in the absence of any source telling us what units they use, is original research. Sometimes they use metric units, sometimes they use imperial. Even in that context - you would not expect Gary Lineker or John Motson to give a player's dimensions in metric units on air. Unless we have a style guide telling us, there's nothing concrete we can say.

Quite why you have gone on to Premier League footballers is not clear - I am unaware of any Falklands-based footballers, or Falkland Islander footballers, playing anywhere in the Premier League. However, I suspect it has something to do with your mass-WP:RETAIN violation of two years ago.

It appears to me that everyone has lost interest in this conversation here, and I suggest we do the same. Kahastok talk 08:40, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I understand how strongly you object to my edits two years ago, but whatever you think of them, almost all have remained unchallenged these two years. So let's let it rest and conclude on good terms. Best wishes, Michael Glass (talk) 09:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

If anything, with your proposal, the likelihood is that the outside editors would leave something overly-open to gaming - turning "a few months down the track" into "a few weeks down the track" at best because people like Martin will immediately start to game your resulting rule.

Most regulars - myself included - never bring this topic up because we know how poisonous it is. But some insist upon it. The last four and a half years have convinced me that the only way to avoid being right back where we are now in a few months' time is a topic ban for those who keep on bringing it up - and right now, that's mostly Martin. If admins were willing enact such topic bans, we might be able to see an end to it. But they aren't, so we won't. Kahastok talk 22:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps that should be made a proposal, that all of you be topic banned from Falklands related articles? Blackmane (talk) 14:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

==== FFS WHY DO ADMINS NEVER EVER DEAL WITH LAME SHIT LIKE THIS ????????????????????????????????? ====

Please deal with the issue of metric obsession

I'm here because of this message on my talk page. One of the main reasons I'm retired is quite simply I tired of WP:LAME shit like this. Please do something, User:Michael Glass and User:Martinvl should be indefinitely topic banned from anything to do with units on any topic, both have paralysed articles on many subjects for months. Having failed to convince wikipedia to go metric, they're trying to do it by the back door. It drives genuine editors nuts in frustration. It may seem lame, it may seem dull, it may seem stupid, TBH it is, but it stops people who have a genuine interest in improving wikipedia from doing so. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:26, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• From the discussion above, Kahastok has caused as many problems as the two you're desperate to have topic banned. If you're retired, why does it matter to you who is topic banned and who isn't? Also, this thread hadn't been edited for a day; so you've just given the chance for more dramah to ensue. Well done you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:06, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
• Also, isn't participating in this thread violating your topic ban on anything to do with the Falklands? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I wish to protest about this foul-mouthed attack by Wee Curry Monster. Foul-mouthed ranting without providing a skerrick of evidence is not normal behaviour. I have not had any dealings with WCM for months, so I cannot understand why he is behaving in this way.Michael Glass (talk) 06:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

To reiterate, my comment made in frustration was about an attempt to drag me back to a discussion I dearly did not want to revisit again, for my language I apologise to the community. Really it isWP:LAME and its been a WP:LAME edit war on oh so many topics. I will amplify my comment that User:Michael Glass and User:Martinvl should be banned from anything to do with WP:MOSNUM or articles relating to units as their advocacy of the metric system leads to damage to wikipedia as a project. The current Falkland Islands discussion is simply another manifestation of it (that I am not allowed to comment on so will not), another example is Munro (a Munro is a mountain in Scotland with a height over 3,000 ft), where User:Michael Glass edited the article to give preference to the metric system (so the lede now gives the definition in one order and the rest of it in the other). This is justified by Michael by what he refers to as his personal policy of "Source Based Units", ie the edit should be based on the source not WP:MOSNUM. It has also touched on premier league football, with editing to change height to give preference to metric first in contravention of WP:MOSNUM. Petty as their campaign may be, its also infuriating and irritating for anyone concerned with article quality. They have caused numerous problems at WT:MOSNUM with various proposals to metricate wikipedia and cannot accept it it doesn't have consensus. Both need to realise they are damaging the project with their obsessive behaviour and stop it or alternatively the community should stop it. Wee Curry Monster talk 12:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Now that i have challenged WCM to produce evidence, all he can come up with are edits that have been in place for months or years and proposals to MOSNUM, which I have a right to make, whether or not he agrees with them. The rest of his rant is not worth replying to. Michael Glass (talk) 12:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Surely WCM bringing up the issues at the Falkland Islands discussion, even if the very first bit wasn't, is violating their topic ban from everything to do with the islands? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Given that you were insisting on guilt by association above, and have since accused me of having "caused as many problems" as others, based on what appears solely to be your own totally inaccurate claims, I think this comment needs to be taken with a fair dose of salt. The fact that someone has a problem with a sockpuppeteer does not mean that they are incapable of causing problems themselves. Here they are. The fact that a good and productive editor like Curry Monster is topic-banned, but an editor who does little with these articles but repeatedly bring up the same point over and over again (gaming the system every time) is not, is an indictment of Misplaced Pages's administrative system. Kahastok talk 21:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Cut the bullshit, I was never saying anything about "guilt by association". I was making what was, at that point, a factually accurate statement; the only person who agreed with your stance is a community banned sockmaster, whose opinion is no longer valid here. That's not "guilt by association", that's "you're on your own, buddy." Simple. Also, are you now attempting to claim I am gaming the system? By bringing up a totally relevant piece of information? Ludicrous. I don't know Martin, other than from the hounding he's received from the sockmaster, and I find the entire argument about the units to be ridiculous. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WP:FALKLANDSUNITS should not exist, and your arguments for keeping it are simply not based on policy. Several other editors have also voiced the exact same opinion. The entire point of noticeboards is to get outside opinion... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Neo ^ and Armenians in Cyprus

User:Neo ^ has some severe WP:OWN issues with Armenians in Cyprus, and I was at least the third editor to point out ownership issues, to then be dismissed rudely out of hand, as more recently User:Cplakidas was also treated. Apparently we the unwashed masses do not know near as much about WPMOS and POV as does User:Neo ^.

I came to the article as an interesting topic with which I have some connection. It was and is awash in unnecessary bolding, filled with claims to "famous" and "well-known" personages who do not have a Misplaced Pages article, and chock full of POV. The term "Osmanian occupation", aside from being the wrong demonym in English, is a loaded term.

I cleaned up some of the more obvious problems, but they were reverted by User:Neo ^. User:Cplakidas cleaned it up and was likewise treated.

On the article's talkpage, I first calmly explained that "unfortunately", "famous" and other such buzzwords are POV and have no place in an encyclopedia. It escalated, I dropped it but watch the article for more evidence of such behavior.

The article really needs a good hard looking over by an MOS expert at least.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Yikes, holy image overload Batman. And that bibliography? Listing every book ever published about Armenians in Cyprus or remotely connected is not a bibliography. And looking at the talk page, yes there is a serious ownership and tone issue with Neo ^ on there. A lot of that article needs culled, not moved elsewhere but culled. The majority isn't even remotely referenced. Canterbury Tail talk 13:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Just having a fresh look tonight, try cognates of heroic, historic and unsurpassed in the thing.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I have been offended by the epressions the first user used against me. I am not that familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies, however I did not revert the changes, I merely changed back - some of them. The attempt is to include all relevant information. Maybe my tone was not liked by some people, but then again you should have seen the expressions used when mentioning me. Neo ^ (talk) 13:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

"not that familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies"? Then you should watch your tone with other editors who are familiar with them, and again shame on you for being here 7 years and remaining "not that familiar with Misplaced Pages's policies".--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

And, yes, they should take a look at the discussion page, and see who went in guns blazing-you-as seems to be your habit. A quick read of your edit summaries with other users makes that abundantly clear.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:59, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

So I though I would add to this discussion a bit, let's try to keep calm no need to get angry Kintetsubuffalo. I've been aware of the of the shenanigans that have been going on in Armenians in Cyprus for some time. I thought since Neo put so much time and effort into expanding the page, that the information could be... hmmmmm how can I put this salvaged, then at a later date streamlined. As evident in the talk page I tried to come to some sort of compromises with Neo. Lets just say it would have been easier to get water from a rock. It's one thing for a user to be unaware of Misplaced Pages's guidelines and rules, making unintentional mistakes, I've done it plenty of times in the past. If you go to the talk page it very evident that Neo has been well informed, especially about WP:SIZERULE and WP:OWN. Every time I try to work these things out, Neo slowly goes back and reverts everything, like a child putting his hand into the cookie jar when he thinks no one is looking. I think I have been very patient with Neo, with all fairness, I truly believe Neo has good intentions. The fact of the matter is, that the page need some serious damage control, it definitely has problems with size and language used, at times seems a bit POV. Seric2 15:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

"Shame on you", "watch your tone" and other expressions do show who has got a real problem with tone, and this is not me... I firmly believe that the basic information should remain when there are other main pages (e.g. education, church and monuments), that is why I am compromising there. However, the timeline or other sections - the information of which cannot be found anywhere else - should remain. And I do believe that I am not reverting things, I am merely editing.Neo ^ (talk) 06:47, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

And another thing: you cannot imagine how much time I have devoted to accumulating and preserving this information. It is such a pity to lose this, just because the article has attracted unwanted attention... Neo ^ (talk) 06:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

How are you "compromising"? Seric2 is exactly right about you, "Neo slowly goes back and reverts everything, like a child putting his hand into the cookie jar when he thinks no one is looking." You're loading the article with POV crap again, when the above editors say the article needs culled.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 08:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Neo, it doesn't matter how much time you have devoted, if WP:CONSENSUS is that the stuff you have added is inappropriate, out it goes. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The hits with Neo just keep on coming, "I am not reverting things, I am merely editing" editing things back to the way they were? To be frank I've been here before. It wouldn't surprise me if a year, two or even three years down the line were back to square one with Neo making "additions" or "touch-ups" to the page. Now that we are on the topic, I was wondering if we could perhaps come to some sort of permanent solution. Now I'm not exactly filled with ideas, I was hoping for some kind of permanent solution, so we don't have to come back to the same problem year, after year, after year. Knowing Neo and his track record it's not hard to imagine this being the case. Seric2 13:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I am not adding crap. What I did was selectively add back some of the information that was there in the first place. Only some of the information, the most important one.Neo ^ (talk) 09:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Armenians in Cyprus problem

Hello. I am Neo_^, for whom many have been heard, unfortunately.

I was told the bibliography section was very large, so we deleted the unpublished articles, the photographic albums and the (auto)biographies.

Then, I was told that - because there are the articles on Armenian education in Cyprus, Armenian religion in Cyprus#Places of worship and Armenian monuments in Cyprus, I should add some of the information there, so as not to repeat what is on that articles, which is what I did, very selectively (only a small paragraph for each item).

Then, some others started undoing my additions, without viewing them. How can someone help me?Neo ^ (talk) 10:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

For the record, I have blocked Neo ^ for 24 hours (as a standard 3RR block), after his recent edits that were four identical massive blanket reverts within one hour (not counting the several partial restorations he did earlier, which would probably also have counted as contentious reverts). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

This needs more eyes, I've unfortunately now gotten involved and can't be impartial any more from a blocking etc perspective. I've warned Neo ^ about edit warring and people are trying to explain things to him on the talk page but he isn't listening. The main crux of the issue is the user seems to think that Misplaced Pages should contain everything there is about Armenians in Cyprus from family emblems, to every organization and building related in any way, and a big issue is about photos of every building and seemingly every single member of the community. Canterbury Tail talk 16:45, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

There is more than one way to get more eyes on this. Neo ^ was just blocked again. 72 hours this time. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 23:59, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

User:John and Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons (WP:BLPs)

I got into a dispute with administrator John at the Brad Pitt article over the appropriateness of using People (magazine)/People.com as a source for that article and other biographies of living persons. Before even reverting him, I took this matter to the article's talk page and then to the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. As seen at that noticeboard, WP:Consensus is that using People and newspaper sources such as the Daily News (New York) for biographies of living persons is acceptable. In fact, as pointed out in that discussion: At the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, People has been consistently deemed a reliable/appropriate source to use for biographies of living persons. Despite this, John has continued to insist that he is right, and, in my view, hinted at or inappropriately used his administrative influence during this dispute by stating things like "Not on my watch" and by continuing to remove the valid sources from the article (as seen here and here) as though we should go by his word or no word at all. Despite being WP:INVOLVED, he issued this warning on my talk page (a warning that indicates that he will block me); I'd already mentioned in the BLP:Noticeboard discussion that he is WP:INVOLVED and would likely block me anyway. There is also the latest comment he made on the Brad Pitt talk page advising me that it would "be very unwise to restore poorly sourced material to this article, especially while central discussion is still ongoing" and that "We are arguing aboutr People but there are also sources like the Sun and the New York Daily News which we cannot use." He stated this despite the fact that, again, WP:Consensus at the noticeboard is not in support of his view, except of course regarding sources such as The Sun; it is a discussion that has obviously run its course. I told him, "That discussion is clearly not simply about People. The New York Daily News is an acceptable source as well, as explained there and no one is arguing to keep sources such as The Sun. As for the matter of ongoing discussion, if it is very unwise for me to restore the sourcing (which it isn't, per above), then it is very unwise of you to WP:Edit war that material out, and to remove further such material, while the discussion is still open."

So, yes, assistance is needed from the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents on this matter. Flyer22 (talk) 12:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I haven't read through that enough yet, but I don't see this consensus on using the "Daily News" for this. Dougweller (talk) 13:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm willing to agree they might be acceptable. Privilege not being license, however, they are not sources I would call "high quality". I would personally prefer not to use them. John is a very experienced editor and I would personally defer to his judgment on this matter. That being said, this is a content matter and has no place here.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll disagree in some aspects Wehwalt: Flyer22 has begun to resort to personal attacks once again - something I have gently tried to talk him out of, only to be attacked myself. His AGF-meter seems to be very broken ES&L 13:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, an admin threatening a block contrary to consensus at BLP/N does have a place here. Claiming WP:BLP trumps WP:V shows a lack of understanding of Misplaced Pages standards. NE Ent 13:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Knowing nothing about any of these publications, I cannot offer an opinion about whether they are reliable sources. That being said, WP:V really is our primary content policy, aside from the limited situations in which we need to ignore all other rules. BLP absolutely may not be used as a trump card to censor stuff we don't like. If you get blocked, an unblock and immediate RFCU on John will follow. Nyttend (talk) 13:56, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Dougweller, the discussion is also about non-tabloid journalism sources in general. And I specifically mentioned the New York Daily News; like People, use of it for biographies of living persons does not violate WP:BLPSOURCES.

Wehwalt, I am also a very experienced Misplaced Pages editor, and so are most or all of the other editors in that discussion. I, and some of them, deal with WP:BLP topics often. That noticeboard is the WP:BLP noticeboard, after all. And like I mentioned there, People has generally been considered a reliable source for biographical content on Misplaced Pages (especially for sourcing text pertaining to an interview that person did with the publication). It is used for many or most of the biographies of living persons regarding celebrities, has consistently passed as a WP:Reliable source in discussions about its reliability/validity, and during the WP:Good article and WP:Featured article processes. The WP:Featured article process in particular is an extremely rigorous process that makes sure that sources are reliable/valid. I brought this matter to this noticeboard because John is continuing to remove the sources despite WP:Consensus, and because he issued that warning on my talk page. Should I have waited until he blocked me? I think not.

As for EatsShootsAndLeaves (also known as User:Bwilkins), he considers my calling out John's antics (being on a power trip and power-hungry) to be a WP:Personal attack. I do not. Nor do I consider calling out the fact that Bwilkins is not a neutral commentator on anything regarding me to be a personal attack. Referring to me by male pronouns when he is well aware that I am female, unless he has reasons to doubt it, is more of the disrespect he has shown me in the past. And his "once again" comment should not be taken to mean that I normally violate the WP:Personal attacks policy; I do not.

NE Ent and Nyttend, thank you. Flyer22 (talk) 14:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• I would consider these sources to be less than optimal as far as reliability. People in particular often pays well (and sometimes is paid by promoters) to help others be famous or infamous. As sources they are hardly worth the paper they are printed on. However, for the particular non controversial aspects of the article in question that these sources are used to reference, they may be adequate enough...though surely not scholarly. Any article that came to FAC with People as a reference would get a fail from me, just to be clear.--MONGO 14:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The way some of those references from People magazine have been thrown into the article, presumably with a catapult needs fixed, the same biography on the People website is used by at least two separate references which makes it difficult to ascertain where some of the issues may lie, but that's not really much more than an aside here. I've looked at some of the references and compared what the publication (in this case People magazine) said with what it's being used to reference and I'm afraid the sources do appear to be misused. His portrayal of the character has been described as a career-making performance... actually comes from The Los Angeles Times only ambiguously referenced by People magazine - it could be better referenced by quoting the LA Times directly (as we should be doing as we don't know the entire context of the quote when used like this). People is again used to reference another claim While struggling to establish himself in Los Angeles, Pitt took lessons from acting coach Roy London but the source says "This girl – I'd never met her before – was in an acting class taught by a man named Roy London," a famous acting coach, he said, according to excerpts in this week's Newsweek. "I went and checked it out, and it really set me on the path to where I am now." it's not clear there that Pitt was actually tutored by Roy London, just that he checked out an acting class taught by him. I can't see what value adding things like Speaking of his scenes with McCall, Pitt later said, "It was kind of wild, because I'd never even met her before." adds to the article. The reference for On November 22, 2001, Pitt made a guest appearance in the eighth season of the television series Friends, playing a man with a grudge against Rachel Green, played by Jennifer Aniston, to whom Pitt was married at the time includes no detail of the date, or episode title (that I could find). . The reference for The film earned $364 million outside the U.S. and $133 million domestically. is completely wrong and inappropriate and includes no mention of the international gross takes anywhere and only mentions the US take after the first week, not total box office figures. I also see a lot of People references being jammed in alongside unambiguously reliable references and adding nothing of value to the standard of referencing. The feeling I get from these references (and I'm perhaps maligning People) is that it's a celebrity gossip magazine with a few useful bits of information surfacing occasionally, but I don't really see anything reading through the number of references I've done today that makes me entirely comfortable using them for referencing an encyclopedic article. I can only conclude John is correct in his actions and I'd support the removal of those references - they largely fail WP:V too. Nick (talk) 14:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• It depends on what the material is. These two sources are less than perfectly reliable for contentious material. The content of People sometimes does verge on Tabloid; the Daily News is in recent years better than it used to be, but it still needs to be used cautiously. They can, however, be used for routine uncontested material without any problem, and I would also use the News for most articles related to NYC. Some of the uses here seem perfectly unexceptional. Others, as mentioned just above, may not be. For some of the ones mentioned above the problem is not that they cite People but that they do it for material which is not in the source, which would be wrong no matter what source it is. For actors and other creative people, questions of influence tend to be uncertain, and the subject may say different things at different times. Further, what the person says about something like that must be cited as what the person says, not as to what the influences are, which needs a third party source. In short, I think John had good intentions in doing this, but he did it unselectively, and should have gone citation by citation. Large scale unselective actions at WP are usually not a good idea. DGG ( talk ) 15:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Nick, this thread is about John's behavior and the perception that he is misusing his admin status to threaten others with retribution, not about whether the biography about Brad Pitt is written perfectly well (it is not) or about whether the Pitt biography text perfectly reflects the cited sources (it does not.) Anybody who is interested is welcome to get into the biography and fix the problems Nick identified, but let's not get drawn off track. Binksternet (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, if we really must focus on individual users rather than the issue of content. There's nothing seriously wrong with John's behaviour, he's as entitled to warn users for improper behaviour as the next editor although if he had gone and removed individual citations one by one, we would have had a better article at the end of it. I will also state Flyer22's behaviour is problematic as they reintroduced a large number of references that simply should not be used, but that's what happens when you get into this constant cycle of someone's right and someone's wrong. John was wrong to remove all the People references in one go (despite the fact they probably should all be gone anyway) and Flyer22 was wrong to add them back. Nick (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I obviously had no idea that there were WP:Verifiability problems with the way that some of the sources are used. But per my and others' comments at the WP:BLP noticeboard, and my comments in this discussion, I do not believe that I was acting disruptively or was wrong to add the sources back. Flyer22 (talk) 16:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that there was no issue with disruption. I can't say you were wrong to add the sources back, given the nature of the argument. Nick (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Flyer22 (talk) 16:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• The issue of an administrator warning another editor is often sticky. In my view, an admin has a right to use a templated warning just as any editor would do. It's true that some editors are more intimidated by receiving a warning from an admin than from a non-admin, but that shouldn't prevent an admin from issuing the warning. If an admin clearly gives a warning in their capacity as an admin, e.g., if you do this, I will block you, that's a different story. I would be concerned if John blocked Flyer, but I don't see why John can't be as strong as any editor in expressing his views about policy.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Nick, thanks for pointing out the matters that need fixing. I agree with DGG that those matters are not excuses/valid for removing the generally acceptable sources that John removed (again, I'm not talking about sources such as The Sun). Bbb23, I have no problem with administrators issuing a warning; that is part of an administrator's job. The significant majority of editors here are not administrators, and so the significant majority of editors here who get warnings from administrators are not administrators. I do have a problem with an administrator removing and continuing to remove sources against valid WP:Consensus. This is the WP:BLP noticeboard we are talking about; it involves editors like Binksternet, who are extremely familiar with what sources are acceptable for biographical content concerning living people. It's not a flimsy or WP:ILIKEIT consensus that was formed on the article talk page. I have a problem with an administrator issuing a warning that someone is violating a policy, when that warning is based only on his or her opinion, and when the indication is clearly "I will block you, if you further violate ." He gave me a "This is your only warning" template, despite the consensus at the WP:BLP noticeboard, and as though I was being some disruptive newbie who doesn't understand WP:BLP policy. I don't see how it can be argued that he did not know very well what implication issuing me that warning would send. I did not feel intimidated, in the sense of being scared to oppose him. I felt threatened, in the sense that he would unjustly block me. Therefore, I felt that I had to beat him to the punch by starting this thread on him. Flyer22 (talk) 16:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm doing my best not to look at the Pitt article or the underlying discussions. There's so much crap in actor articles, whether it's sourced to People, some other fan magazine, or even a major news outlet. If I have to read one more dating history of some good-looking actor ... Two issues you raise. First, whether John is defying consensus. To know that, I'd have to read the discussions, but, generally, what happens when any editor defies consensus is an edit war ensues. That generally gets the defier blocked. Has that happened? I saw a whole bunch of recent consecutive (interrupted only by a bot) reverts at Pitt by John and one by you. I didn't see a war. Second, not whether an administrator is entitled to warn another editor but whether the warning is justifiable. No editor, admin or otherwise, should issue unjustified warnings, and if there is a pattern of doing so, they should be sanctioned. On a more isolated basis, they should probably just be advised/warned not to do it. I'd kind of like to hear from John in this discussion. It looks like he hasn't been on-wiki for several hours.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

There was a small discussion at WP:BLP/N about People magazine, it's quite clear that those who commented supported the use of People Magazine/People.com as a reliable source, but we've also got comments here which suggest that's not universally accepted across the project. I suspect there's going to have to be a full scale RFC about reliable sources to get to the bottom of what the project as a whole will accept as a reliable source and whether it's possible to consider some less reliable sources for the referencing of less contentious content (name, filmography, DOB etc etc) but there's absolutely no consistency and quite clearly with one group of editors, John would be enforcing consensus and with another group of editors he's ignoring consensus. Nick (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23, there have not been a lot of reverts at the Pitt article with regard to me and John (I've reverted him twice; he's reverted me once). And he obviously has not been blocked. But, LOL, regarding reading the article; you're like me in that regard -- watches it, but mostly hasn't read it. Nick's points about the verifiability of that article, however, give me the urge to read the article in its entirety and correct the verifiability aspects that need correcting.

Nick, I pointed out that, in that discussion, it was noted that the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard has consistently deemed People a reliable/appropriate source to use for biographies of living persons. I also noted before that point that it's passed as a reliable source at the WP:BLP noticeboard various times. It's used for a lot of or the majority of articles about living celebrities, and routinely passes as a WP:Reliable source in good and featured article nominations. But I feel that your suggestion about such a WP:RfC is a good idea. Flyer22 (talk) 16:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

A couple things stand out to me here: I'd encourage Flyer not to use rhetoric like "power-hungry, abusive administrator" to describe John. That's probably not going to be very helpful here. And as far as I can see, John hasn't used his admin tools in this dispute. I'd strongly encourage him not to do so, since the last thing we want here is a repeat of the Manning debacle. Also, John's templating of Flyer was definitely inappropriate and unhelpful. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Two comments, first maybe we should step back and take a deep breath until John chips in? Secondly, the regulars should be templated when, in good faith, the templator believes it's appropriate. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:18, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

If you're going to give an "only warning" to an editor, especially one that's established, you better darn well be sure it'll be viewed as uncontroversial by uninvolved parties. That goes double for admins as most of us probably feel the next step will be a block. --NeilN 18:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, you really shouldn't throw a level 4 template on someone's talk page while you're in a good-faith dispute with them. Particularly if you're an admin and they're not. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:43, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

100% agreed on that. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

No, users should be templated in accordance with the explanation at User Warning Project. Normally a uw-biog warning would be given to ensure an editor is aware of BLP policies -- given that Flyer22 had already initiated a BLP/N, clearly they was already aware of BLP and was already discussing the editors; therefore the logical inference is the warning was intended to intimidate / threaten the user.NE Ent 10:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

No comment on the specifics of the content and whether the sources support it. Regarding the ANI-relevant issue, John's conduct, it is entirely inappropriate to threaten someone who has gone through the proper channels and followed consensus, as Flyer22 did, with a block. John is entitled to his views on People and the NY Daily News, but his views do not trump the general views of the community, which have long held that those sources, while inevitably less than ideal, are nonetheless generally reliable. Flyer22 did the right thing in taking the matter to a noticeboard and seeking consensus there, her restoration of content based on the response she received at the noticeboard was fully within policy (no 3RR problems and consensus respected) and she deserved better than to receive a templated warning (a level-4im, no less) in response. That was provocative, insulting, and uncalled for. John appears to have disrespected WP:CONSENSUS, misapplied WP:BLP, and displayed WP:OWN issues. One hopes this could be resolved with a gentle trout whack and an assurance that similar disputes will be handled differently in future. Rivertorch (talk) 18:27, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Aren't "gentle" and "whack" mutually exclusive? :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 18:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Only in the real world, Bbb. Misplaced Pages occupies a parallel universe with its own laws of physics. Rivertorch (talk) 18:49, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

And there he's at it again violating WP:Consensus, removing everything again and citing use of The Sun as his excuse. Not only does he not respect WP:Consensus, but he has a severe case of WP:I didn't hear that. One more time: In this case, no one is supporting the use of The Sun at the WP:BLP noticeboard or in this discussion. He could have easily removed that without removing the other sources. Flyer22 (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• It seems a handful of editors think People is a good source for BLPs; I think the onus is on them to demonstrate how it meets our standards. The New York Daily News and The Sun are unambiguously tabloids and as such can never be used on a BLP. By blindly edit-warring to restore these non-compliant sources as well as the People ones that they think they have consensus to use, I think Flyer is being either intentionally disruptive or exhibiting incompetence. Whether this rises to the level of being block worthy I will let others judge. The best course would obviously be for them to find better sources. I don't appreciate the insults this user has thrown at me but again I am not sure this requires a block at the moment. I am perfectly happy with how I have handled this and would do exactly the same the next time. It would be great if others would join me in removing gossip sites and tabloids from articles on living people, as our policy stipulates. --John (talk) 21:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• John, I think Flyer is understandably frustrated with your behavior. Your latest removal of sources says that the Sun is a tabloid, but many of the sources you removed relate to People. I thought that on the talk page you had already agreed that the issue of People was still being debated. Why then are you removing the sources? At the same time, your demand that this cannot be resolved by what you label a local consensus, if carried to its logical extreme, would mean that we would have to remove all these sources from tons of articles. I'm not going to express an opinion on the consensus because I haven't read all the discussions, but this is not a case where damaging material about the subject is being added to the article and you are protecting it. You are removing the sources themselves as if they're poison, not assertions about the subject.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• I need to correct something I said above. John is removing material as well as sources. It depends on whether the material is sourced only to People or if it is sourced to some other source and to People. My mistake.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:54, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

To John: It is not "a handful of editors," as has been consistently explained to you. Get it through your head that People has consistently passed as a WP:Reliable/appropriate source to use for biographies of living persons, both at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard and at the WP:BLP noticeboard, and that it routinely passes as a WP:Reliable source in good and featured article nominations. That does not equate to "a handful of editors." That equates to precedent/standard practice on Misplaced Pages. You refuse to listen to anyone else's opinion but your own. Not just here, but elsewhere as well (I've noticed, and as also recently pointed out by a different editor on my talk page). You act as though it is your way or the highway. And I don't see how anyone has to wonder why I have cited you as being on a power trip, or referred to you by the aforementioned descriptions (pointed out by Mark) above. The one showing disruption and WP:Competence issues is you, which is well documented in the aforementioned WP:BLP noticeboard discussion and in this discussion. You don't know how to admit when you are wrong, apparently, not even about disclaimers, and you don't know how to follow WP:Consensus...or rather refuse to follow it when it gets in the way of something you disagree with. The only reason I can think that you feel that it is okay to act in the disruptive way you have acted in this case is because you are an administrator. But your actions are wrong. Just because a source mostly or only focuses on celebrities does not make that source unreliable, any more than using ESPN as a source for sports material makes that source unreliable. You have convinced me that you are one of the worst editors/administrators I have ever had the non-pleasure of interacting with. Flyer22 (talk) 22:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Flyer22, as an experienced editor (my regrets, re my earlier comment) perhaps you could refer me to a couple of featured article nominations where the question of People magazine was discussed and upheld? To my knowledge, I have never used or seen either People or the NY Daily News in a featured article or run across it at a nomination, and would certainly flag it and request an explanation if I did see one. I'm reasonably familiar, in an ad hoc sort of way, with FAC, but perhaps your experience is superior.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Not at the top of my head, I can't (think of a case where People was specifically pointed out, meaning because it's People, during a good or featured article process and then upheld; what I do know is that I've seen that more than several times in the several years I've been at this site, since 2007). It is easy enough, however, to look at some of our WP:Featured article biographies of living people and see if they passed using People or sources such as New York Daily News. I'm still not sure how New York Daily News can be called a tabloid, simply because, as its lead currently states, "The first U.S. daily printed in tabloid form." As the Tabloid (newspaper format) article points out, tabloid format does not equal "tabloid." Many valid newspapers use that format. I'm not sure how you've not come across a Misplaced Pages featured biography of a living person that uses People as a source, but that Brad Pitt article, which passed as a featured article using that source, is nowhere close to a limited case. Like others besides me have stated on this topic, People is routinely used in many of our articles on living people, especially celebrities. But it hardly matters anyway if John gets a special license to violate WP:Consensus (a policy) during a dispute that is not a WP:Ignore all rules matter (as far as I can see). Flyer22 (talk) 23:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

These versions of articles were passed into FA status with using People as a source: . The onus is on John to get consensus that People does not meet our sourcing standards. --NeilN 23:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

And the New York Daily News? Are you also standing up for that being BLP-compliant? Because it isn't. And nobody has argued that it is. Yet you restored it as a reference. Why was that? --John (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

No one has argued that it is? Yeah, you clearly have a serious case of WP:I didn't hear that. And nice personal attack you made on NeilN below (...not). Flyer22 (talk) 06:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The New York Daily News has been brought up once at WP:RSN: and OK'd. At WP:BLPN it has a rather more mixed set of reviews, but the main arguments against it appear to come from a now site-banned editor... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Trying to get the discussion back on track here, the question is whether People inherently qualifies as a source which can be used, apparently, in all cases. The nature of the discussion above regarding that point seems to be "no" - it is by nature pretty much a populist source, and they can, at times, be less than optimal. This is not to say that it can't be used,particularly if the content being sourced from it is more or less noncontroversial, but that potentially contentious material which can be sourced exclusively from it might well be problematic. Not all "acceptable" sources are reliable enough to meet RS standards in all cases. Having said all that, we then return to the apparent subject of this discussion, whether John was acting acceptably to remove the material and source from the article. Not knowing all the details about the specific material sourced from People, or whether better sources for the same content exists, that one is hard to answer, but I think in most cases we would err on the side of caution in general there, particularly if BLP concerns are involved. So, removing potentially contentious material sourced from People would be, I think according to most of us, reasonable. The material should then be discussed on the talk page, and if John didn't do that, he probably should have, depending on whether the content had serious BLP problems of not. If the material was contentious, and I don't know enough here to say anything about that in this particular instance. But, on the whole, while I can see that maybe John's actions might not have necessarily been the best of all possible actions he could have taken, and the apparent threat was really less than optimal, I'm not sure that anything more than a few lashings with a wet noodle, or trout, is called for here, so long as the actions don't repeat themselves. John Carter (talk) 23:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I think you must be reading a different discussion than I am. Perhaps if John were to show any kind of understanding of why this incident report was opened, he could avoid the trouting? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

If the material was contentious, I would expect a different tone on WP:BLPN and here. Instead, we have John removing cites to "The same year, Pitt co-starred in six episodes of the short-lived Fox drama Glory Days" and "...and traveled to Pakistan in November 2005 with Angelina Jolie to see the impact of the 2005 Kashmir earthquake." --NeilN 23:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I've just full protected the article. I think it was justified to keep the parties in the dispute from edit warring further and force discussion. I commented on some comments from couple users above, but I don't think I'm WP:INVOLVED in the content dispute regarding the sources. If anyone thinks I am, let me know and I'll consider reverting myself. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't going to revert again. But NeilN reverted John, and John would have likely reverted NeilN. Then someone else would have likely reverted John. So good call on full-protection, Mark. Flyer22 (talk) 01:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Note that I took the action John implied he was taking in his edit summary. . --NeilN 01:27, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Er, no you didn't. You restored tabloid journalism (NYDN) as well as the celebrity gossip diarrhea you and others are claiming meets our standards. I cannot see why anyone with a brain would edit-war to restore this trash to the article, but the NYDN is an out-and-out tabloid, which clearly and unambiguously fails BLPSOURCES. Why would you edit-war that back into the article? --John (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

You know all this could have probably been averted if you provided rational arguments and only taken out sources which have been deemed not reliable by previous consensus instead of fooling around with laughable red herrings, completely inappropriate warnings, and very misleading edit summaries - "the Sun is unambiguously a tabloid and cannot ever be used on a BLP" when taking out one Sun reference and a boatload of others. As for the NYDN, checking on WP:RSN and BLPN gives this and this and this (you were even started the last discussion and said you "...don't know the US market so well"). So not a tabloid but should be used with caution. As far as I can see, you didn't even bring up any material you thought was contentious. You just waded in, crying, "Gossip rag! Tabloid! Trashy! Trashy!" --NeilN 06:58, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

John, it's time to step away from the computer and have a nice cup of tea before re-engaging. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Can someone explain how it helps with WP:BLP to identify what you consider a sub-optimal source, and take out the reference to it, but leave behind the text that the ref used to support? It is hard to comment in detail when a single edit makes upwards of 30 changes to an article, but several places there, I'm sure that the edit leaves unreferenced text behind with no 'citation needed' tag. Coupled with the frankly misleading edit summary, and the facts that it was made 10 hours into a AN/I discussion, by the administrator under discussion, on the article that the discussion is about... that does not look like a good or constructive edit to me. --Nigelj (talk) 07:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• I see a lot of assertions that The Sun must never be used as a source under any circumstances. In which case, one has to ask - why isn't it blacklisted like examiner.com? Ritchie333 12:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Because those assertions aren't correct. WP:BLPSOURCES says "Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism." The Sun is a tabloid, but can publish articles that aren't "tabloid journalism", just like many more usually reliable newspapers will have a gossip column that is "tabloid journalism". The catchphrase of Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources is "Context matters": "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content." There are some articles published in The Sun that are reliable sources for some statements, and there are some articles published in The New York Times that aren't reliable sources for other statements. Anyone claiming there is any blanket rule otherwise is simply wrong. --GRuban (talk) 14:26, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Like John, of course... Basket _Feudalist 14:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

That's a nonsensical interpretation of BLPSOURCES. I will continue to enforce it as it is written, rather than as some people seem to wish it was written, unless it is actually changed. Tabloids can only be used as sources for their own opinions, in general. They should not be used on BLPs, as they have a well-deserved reputation for printing lies. --John (talk) 17:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Then you're enforcing it against consensus, it could appear. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

To the original point: examiner.com isn't blacklisted because it's unreliable, it was blacklisted because people were spamming links to it to get their pennies-for-views; that's why it's the spam blacklist. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• The only time I would ever use The Sun - or The Mirror - as a source is if it is talking about the birth of someone's child, or their marriage. Otherwise, I avoid them like the plague, for reasons that John expressed.Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Luke, "talking about the birth of someone's child, or their marriage" is exactly where we shouldn't use tabloids! -- Hillbillyholiday 22:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
  • As a general note, I think a number of American editors (and presumably editors from some other countries) are unfamiliar with which British papers are good sources vs trash sources. It might be helpful for someone to write up a list for reference. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:40, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Mark, these UK publications (not a comprehensive list) are non-RS and should be avoided/purged from BLPs:

• Daily Mail & Mail on Sunday dailymail.co.uk
• The Mirror & Sunday Mirror mirror.co.uk
• The People people.co.uk
• The Sun thesun.co.uk
• Daily Express express.co.uk
• Daily Sport dailysport.co.uk
• Daily Record dailyrecord.co.uk
• News of the World newsoftheworld.co.uk
• Daily Star dailystar.co.uk
• Metro metro.co.uk -- Hillbillyholiday 22:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks! I'll make a note of that. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:15, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
• Can you link to the WP:RSN and/or WP:BLPN disucssions that determined they were unsuitable? Thanks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• No need. They are all 'tabloids' and therefore cannot be used in BLPs. -- Hillbillyholiday 01:59, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Can you point me to where that decision was made, please? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources. Or are you claiming these publications are not tabloids? I checked WP:RSN but can't find a discussion nor decision concerning the Daily Sport, does that mean it is a reputable source? -- Hillbillyholiday 07:59, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

This RSN discussion mentions the Sunday Sport. It is, as expected, tossed out. However, the same thread mentions the Sun without any obvious consensus. This thread discusses The Sun in depth, where, due to corresponding coverage in The Guardian, it was deemed acceptable to cite it for facts relating to Jimmy Savile. This image is a direct facsimile of the front page of The Sun, and placed prominently on Neil Kinnock, which is (unless I missed the news!) is a biography of a living person. I would struggle to write a really broad and comprehensive article on Max Clifford without being able to pick out some of his more infamous Sun headlines. Bottom line is - usually you shouldn't use The Sun, but sometimes you have to. Ritchie333 08:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Any way, AN/I should not be a forum for determining RS if there have been previous discussions on these sources at RSN. As I understand AN/I, it is a forum for addressing conduct, not content issues. If RSN has approved the newspapers/magazines under question as RS for a certain kind of sourcing (for example, for validating comments by subjects in an interview or for details about television programming), then the issues shouldn't be rehashed here. I've found those working at RSN to be quite adept at ferreting out what is a valid source and what isn't. "Tabloid" is a vague label applied to journalism one thinks is shoddy and is an imprecise and subjective judgment (opinion can also change over time if the quality of journalism improves). I haven't dug into the RSN discussions to verify the decisions about these sources but I'd accept the consensus there for the scope of their use where they have been deemed "reliable". Liz 10:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLPSOURCES prohibits BLP material whose only source is tabloid journalism, and links that mainspace article. The article makes it clear that tabloid journalism is not confined to certain newspapers, and also that many papers commonly associated with it are also quite capable of serious factual reporting at other times too. It is a "journalistic approach", not a size of paper. Therefore it is nonsensical (A) to try to compile a definitive list of newspapers that should be "purged from BLPs", (B) to carry out such purges, 20 - 30 refs at a time, and (C) to state " I am perfectly happy with how I have handled this and would do exactly the same the next time" when called out for doing so. --Nigelj (talk) 16:21, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Without a definitive list (or even just the newspapers mentioned in the Tabloid journalism article), Nigelj, then it becomes an subjective judgment of when and where the "journalistic approach" of a paper crosses over the line into "tabloid journalism". While I understand the limitations of having a fixed list of names, I think I'm more comfortable with having a short list than to have each Editor drawing their own conclusions every time they edit an article that uses these sources. Liz 17:27, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree, however if there is going to be a "tabloid blacklist" it needs to be discussed and determined by consensus, not simply decreed on the basis of 'these are tabloids, and BLP!!!', which was the reason I requested RSN/BLPN discussion links re: the list above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

To sum up

John unilaterally decides People and the NYDN are tabloids, and indiscriminately takes them out of the Brad Pitt article. He completely ignores feedback on WP:BLPN and slaps Flyer22 with an only warning. He continues to ignore all feedback here saying, "I am perfectly happy with how I have handled this and would do exactly the same the next time." (emphasis mine) and then calls me a dumbass] (among other insults) and now reiterates he will not change his behaviour while taking another shot at Flyer22 for something he (John) should have done. Have I got this right? --NeilN 18:16, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

No, only partly ES&L 08:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Specific issue about Pitt aside, John is openly acting in a disruptive way. Especially the insults, the misleading/fallacious edit summaries (the "Sun" example described above) and the only warning given to Flyer22 are very serious concerns. Cavarrone 21:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

"Only warnings" for what he believed to be repeat BLP issues from an editor he believed had done the same before is not neccessarily problematic. ES&L 08:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Back from the brink

Ok, I've watched this go on long enough. Key points:

1. John did not use their tools in this dispute
2. John used a standard, template (albeit level 4) warning
3. BLP is a touchy subject
4. There is definitely an argument about RS's as a whole
5. Calling anyone "dumbass" or "power hungry" is inappropriate

In short, nobody is going to lose tools, get blocked, or whatever. The only thing that there is absolute consensus on are the 5 points I raised above. This is not the place where these actual issues will be resolved ES&L 08:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• I have put together a lengthy summary of what I think should happen to Brad Pitt on the talk page here. I would like comments on it, because, unless I hear objections, I intend to edit the article as described when full protection expires. I don't see any need for administrator action. Ritchie333 09:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• I think you may want to rephrase that sentence slightly... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:44, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I found that phrasing a little humourous myself ... there are many things I think should happen to Brad Pitt too, none of which appear at that link LOL ES&L 17:55, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• The "key point" that John did not use their tools in this dispute is misguided. When an admin chooses to enforce BLPSOURCES as they believe they are written, and that admin slaps an editor-in-good-standing with {{uw-biog4im}}, it is obvious that the admin is preparing the path towards blocking their opponent in a content dispute. Yes, it's literally true (I think) that no admin tools have been used in this dispute (apart from the wise protection of the article), but ANI is free to discuss inappropriate behavior regardless of whether a particular rule like WP:INVOLVED was violated. The discussions are a little long for me to want to fully digest, but I can't see any claim that the text relying on People was a BLP violation (no contentious assertions)—apparently the claim is that nothing in a BLP can be sourced to People. That's a noble opinion, but it needs clear backing from a noticeboard before hitting opponents with an "I'm an admin who is going to block you" message. Johnuniq (talk) 11:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not at all misguided. There's no proof that John was planning on performing the block himself, and to suggest that he might break WP:INVOLVED is throwing WP:AGF out the window. ANY editor can drop a 4im warning, and then go looking for an enforcer ... it just so happens that John was the one who could have blocked. This may come across as a bit of "bullying" - but unless John had actually performed the block, there's nothing ANI-able here - slap his wrists for bullying if you need to. Indeed, this wouldn't even make an RFC/U yet. Based on the pretty uncivil discussions between Flyer and John, and a general level of snarkiness when they discuss each other, it's clear this has rubbed them both the wrong way. I have faith that they are BOTH trying to improve the project - but people need to settle their disagreements like ADULTS, and not keep trying to have the last word ES&L 11:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

How are disagreements supposed to be settled when one party ignores all discussion and insists he would do exactly the same next time? --NeilN 13:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. There's no need to pretend that if John were a non-administrator, he would not have gotten a stern warning from someone other than NeilN by now. It's not like I brought this matter here to debate sources (I took that matter to the WP:BLP noticeboard for that). I brought it here because of, as others have pointed out, John's behavior. The "only warning" template aside, he continued to violate WP:Consensus (a policy) and insists that he will continue to do so. And, yes, as others have noted above, there is WP:Consensus that People is generally fine to use for biographical content concerning living people. That he will continue to remove People or the New York Daily News from Misplaced Pages biographies of living persons (whether the text along with them or not, and even from WP:Featured articles), despite these sources not being restricted and despite People generally being accepted on Misplaced Pages for biographical content concerning living people, because of his personal preference that they not be used is most problematic. It would be a different story if he were replacing these sources with reliable sources, but he is not (same story with the Ben Affleck article and others). He is leaving messes in place (and even if removing the text, he is removing material that was validly sourced). And like I noted at the WP:BLP noticeboard, he will be facing a lot of opposition than from just me, given how widely accepted these sources are on Misplaced Pages for biographical content concerning living people and often in general. Flyer22 (talk) 15:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that "a bit of "bullying"" is an acceptable part of Misplaced Pages editing etiquette. Or is it "a bit of "bullying"" from an administrator that is par for the course? The original post here questioned the attitude of "we should go by his word or no word at all", and I think that that should be seriously addressed in any conclusion. --Nigelj (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I never said that any bullying was acceptable or "par for the course". But, there's no proof that his intent was to bully, and nobody has provided any diffs to suggest that it's the case, or that it's a pattern. (BTW: As a professional journalist, I'm surprised that ANYONE is considering using People Magazine as a source for anything but toilet paper) ES&L 16:17, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Well I once cited something in Cleo Rocos' article to Hello! Magazine, but I thrashed myself 20 times with a belt after doing so.... Ritchie333 16:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that ES&L has summarized the situation fairly accurately above. Yes, John did template warn another editor. But, there is no reason why an admin cannot issue templated "you may be blocked" warnings. Short of an "I will block you" statement, there is no reason to believe that John had any intent to block the other editor. What's an admin to do if, in a content dispute, he/she thinks someone is heading for a block other than warn them that they're heading for a block? Yes, John was being obdurate but that's not an actionable offense. There was no edit warring, no 'bad behavior'. My suggestion is that someone close this discussion and that anyone who is not happy with the exclusion of people magazine or the daily news from the pitt article do the work of formulating an RfC to figure out the their acceptability as sources for that article or, if they have excessive time on their hands, an RfC that clarifies where these sources are acceptable and where they're not. --regentspark (comment) 16:48, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

There was no edit warring and no bad behavior on John's part? Well, I suppose I'm glad that various editors above disagree with that statement. Flyer22 (talk) 17:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

And "being obdurate" against WP:Consensus is an actionable offense. Action is taken against that offense all the time at this noticeboard, even now, and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. And to repeat what I stated on the Brad Pitt talk page, "I don't see why the WP:Consensus formed during should be discarded just because John didn't get his way there. If he's hoping to go through dispute resolution process after dispute resolution process until he eventually gets his way, he can count me out. And given the turnout (number of people participating) for WP:RfC and the other dispute resolution processes, being more iffy, and considering the relevancy of the WP:BLP noticeboard in this case, going to the WP:BLP noticeboard about it was probably the best route." Unless, of course, it's a wide-scale WP:RfC. Flyer22 (talk) 17:20, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Flyer22, obduracy is not a bad thing but is merely push back against something that an editor feels is incorrect. It is worth bearing in mind that just because a largish group of people feel that the obstinacy is unwarranted, it doesn't mean that it is. Perhaps that editor is right and it is incumbent on you, as the person attempting to add information, to go out and seek wider input, particularly in a BLP. If we did everything merely by counting those in favor and those against, I shudder to think where some of our articles will end up. Obduracy becomes a problem only when it leads to edit warring or some other type of disruptive behavior. Your complaint here is that John has threatened to block you and I don't see that. He has said you may be blocked, not that he will block you. There is a ocean of difference between the two which you may want to ponder. You might also want to think about what you would like to achieve with an ANI complaint. John desysopped? John admonished? None of these is going to happen over what is largely a content issue. Better to take this to an RfC on the content part and subtract from the drama. If I may also add, if there was a history of John using warnings and then blocking people in content disputes, there would be something actionable here. Lacking that pattern, I suggest a quick assumption of good faith that his warning was not with an intent to block. --regentspark (comment) 19:12, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Being obdurate against WP:Consensus is a bad thing. I am speaking of the word obdurate with regard to actions. John was not simply stating "I disagree with consensus." He was acting against it. WP:Consensus should be enforced just as much as any other policy, unless there is a WP:Ignore all rules reason not to do so. There was not such a reason in this case; this is because the WP:BLP noticeboard made it perfectly clear to John that the sources were fine for use, and because that noticeboard and the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard have consistently made that case with regard to such matters. As for the WP:BURDEN being on me, it was not. The sources, with the exception of The Sun or any other source clearly and/or consistently deemed unacceptable, were not invalid to use and I knew it. But did I immediately revert John? No. As well-noted here, I went through the appropriate means to seek wider input. Going to the WP:BLP noticeboard for such input is standard practice. I do not have the means to start a wide-scale WP:RfC where the entire Misplaced Pages community is alerted to this matter. See WP:Dispute resolution for the options. So unless you are talking about some wide-scale WP:RfC, I have not a clue what you mean by "wider input."

The consensus that was formed at the WP:BLP noticeboard is based on the weight of the views there, as I mentioned to John, not on headcount. It was me who pointed out there what WP:Consensus means, so I do not need you to give me a lesson on it. You should save that lesson for John. You stated, "Obduracy becomes a problem only when it leads to edit warring or some other type of disruptive behavior." Well, that is exactly what various editors above agree that John did. It's not even an opinion that he was WP:Edit warring (or that I was as well, though I was at least acting with regard to WP:Consensus); it's a fact. And it's a fact that he would have continued to WP:Edit war, considering that he has stated that he would have. And that is exactly why that article needed full-protection. Unlike John, I don't have an administrative status that has given me some false (or not-so-false, considering a few arguments here) sense of exemption from following Misplaced Pages rules when I disagree with them. And read again what I stated in my initial post on this matter above; I did not state that John threatened to block me. I stated that "he issued warning on my talk page (a warning that indicates that he will block me)." Others above obviously agree with that implication. I'm also extremely certain that he would have blocked me, given his actions/statements on this matter after I filed this report. I did not come to this noticeboard because I wanted John "desysopped." I very clearly stated above, "I have a problem with an administrator issuing a warning that someone is violating a policy, when that warning is based only on his or her opinion, and when the indication is clearly 'I will block you, if you further violate .' He gave me a 'This is your only warning' template, despite the consensus at the WP:BLP noticeboard, and as though I was being some disruptive newbie who doesn't understand WP:BLP policy. I don't see how it can be argued that he did not know very well what implication issuing me that warning would send. I did not feel intimidated, in the sense of being scared to oppose him. I felt threatened, in the sense that he would unjustly block me. Therefore, I felt that I had to beat him to the punch by starting this thread on him." As for admonished, he's already been admonished by various editors in this report, who all agree that this is seriously more than a content dispute matter; some of them seem to think that it's more than mostly a content dispute matter. Since you feel the need to advise me, I advise you to read all of what has been stated above on this matter; it does not seem that you have. And if you have, then oh well. It's already been noted that John has a sort of exemption regarding a matter that any other editor (meaning of "lower rank") would have been seriously warned for (by more than just NeilN). Flyer22 (talk) 20:02, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point so let me be brief. Anyone can issue a "you may be blocked" warning. Admins editing content can issue "you may be blocked" warnings. Reading an "I will block you" implication into a warning is not the same thing as a clearly stated "I will block you". What you are certain John may or may not do in the future is not actionable. Consensus building is not confined to visiting noticeboards and, generally speaking, the person adding information has the responsibility to ensure that there is adequate consensus before making the addition. Especially in a BLP. I'm sorry to see you feel there is some sort of "rank" hierarchy on Misplaced Pages, there isn't, but I've now read your talk page as well and all this is a bit clearer. --regentspark (comment) 21:09, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

No, you are missing the point...a point that has been very clearly expressed by various people in this report now. John's opinion that there was not adequate consensus, something he pretty much stated, despite the fact that various editors agree that there was and despite the fact that this has been a consistent consensus, does not give him the right to violate that consensus and edit war his version back into any article. If everyone violated WP:Consensus because they felt that it was not "adequate consensus," which in John's case meant "not in agreement with my view," then that policy would be useless and countless articles would be in peril or an even bigger mess than they already are. You make it sound like I should have went through every WP:Dispute resolution process there is to get a consensus that you or John would have deemed adequate, but I did make sure that there was adequate consensus before reverting John. He had none to restore his version; WP:Consensus works both ways, including on BLPs. And I don't know why you feel that any outcome that deems People acceptable would have caused John to back off and state, "Oh, okay, I accept that." But he has made it extremely clear that he will never accept consensus on such a matter. As for rank, administrators technically are of a higher rank, and they often are treated differently because of it (as others agree below, many have stated across Misplaced Pages, and as has been shown on this noticeboard more times than I can remember). But if you notice, I put "lower rank" in parentheses. As for your personal opinion about me, RegentsPark (whether what I've noted in these three sections or anywhere else on my talk page), I care not. Not one bit. Flyer22 (talk) 21:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

No one has to accept consensus on anything - assuming that there is a consensus for what John went against (I haven't seen a definitive link to that consensus but I could have missed it in the reams above). If that becomes the norm, then consensus will never change. What matters is what someone does. And, my point is that John has not done anything outside the normal norms. If he blocked you or said "I will block you", that would be a different matter. Perhaps you should have asked him if he had any intention of blocking you himself. A simple yes or no would have made this straightforward. If he violated 3RR, he should, and I certainly hope would, be blocked. Failing these, I'm still uncertain as to what it is you're seeking. (And I have no opinion of you so what's that about? ) --regentspark (comment) 23:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editors have to accept consensus, in the sense that, if they are aware of it, they are not supposed to violate it unless it is a WP:Ignore all rules matter. WP:Consensus is policy, not merely a guideline, and it should be respected as policy. I've already stated that John has the right to disagree with WP:Consensus; he does not have the right to violate it. Or maybe he does, considering that he has been given a free pass on this matter when many non-administrators have been warned and/or blocked by an administrator for repeatedly violating WP:Consensus, WP:Edit warring and/or hurling insults. I've already been over this with you. And there is no "assuming" what the WP:Consensus is on this; it was, and still is, against John...which is well-noted in this report. This is not about WP:Consensus never changing. Every experienced Misplaced Pages editor knows that it can change (or at least the significant majority of them know that). It's about current/consistent WP:Consensus, and it having been violated by John. Your point or points are misguided, in my opinion, because you see nothing wrong with John's clear problematic behavior during all of this; you are the only editor here claiming that he did nothing wrong. As for talking to John, I'd rather not try to communicate with an editor who not only has shown me such disrespect as to slap me with that four-level warning about violating the WP:BLP policy after I got the unanimous "It's okay to use" go-ahead from the WP:BLP noticeboard (a go-ahead that I knew that I would get), but also has shown that he cannot or will not debate the matter at hand and will rather only peep in to reiterate that he is right and will continue to act against WP:Consensus. I also had no reason to trust his word (I had no more WP:Assume good faith left to give him, just as it seems that he had no more to give me; that is, if he ever had any to give me to begin with on this matter, which I seriously doubt). And I had no desire to let him think that he could get away with treating me or any other Misplaced Pages editor in such a way by simply "flushing" the matter from his talk page as though I'm a turd. As for having an opinion on me, I was obviously referring to your comment about having read my talk page; that comment obviously refers to your opinion on my views. Flyer22 (talk) 01:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

regentspark this is the second time you've made reference to "adding information". Flyer22 was not adding any new information. They were restoring references to the article that had been there for quite some time, indiscriminately removed by John because of his self-declaration of "tabloid!" and leaving some sentences unreferenced. WP:BRD does not apply only to additions, it applies to changes, be they additions, modifications, or removal of long-standing material. I have no idea why you are glossing over John's primary responsibility in this except for, well... --NeilN 23:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

You know, I've always discounted the "admins protect themselves" complaints that appear here with some regularity. I don't think I'll be passing them over so lightly in the future. Admin + "BLP! BLP! BLP!" = basically a free pass. Got it. --NeilN 17:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

While that appears to be evident here, NeilN, I've also seen long-time Editors who are not Admins be given a free pass if they have Admin allies. The logic seems to be "blocks are preventive, not punitive...but Editor A has said a block won't affect their conduct so why impose one"? It's a neat trick but only seems to apply to a few people. Liz 17:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure we all have our opinions and can make generalizations about what routinely does happen versus what should happen on ANI. That's all very interesting and may well deserve further discussion elsewhere, but it isn't helping to resolve this case. We can disagree over some of the details, but there do seem to be some salient points that consensus should be possible on:

• Flyer22 acted not only within policy but followed best practice in discussing the disputed content and sourcing at article talk and in seeking guidance at BLP/N.
• John disregarded consensus in removing the disputed content, failed to provide a legitimate policy-based justification for doing so, acted provocatively by templating a regular and threatening her with a block, indicated he will pursue an identical course of action if similar instances arise in the future, and has made profoundly uncivil remarks since this thread has been open.

Nitpicks aside, if we can agree with the general thrust of the above, one thing seems perfectly clear: if this thread is closed with no resolution of any kind, there will be another thread very much like it sometime in the future. What then? RfC/U? Arbcom? It would be a shame to think that the community cannot deal with this sort of thing when it happens. I don't have any concrete proposals (clearly, my earlier suggestion of a trout and a promise has gone out the window) but I do think we need some clarity and some closure, and those aren't being provided by the adminstrators who have commented thus far. Rivertorch (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. The "no 'bad behavior'" comment made above implies that regentspark thinks everything was fine with John's behavior. If the roles were reversed, and Flyer22 or I started indiscriminately pulling out cites to an established reference we didn't like, refused to discuss with an objecting admin, templated them, called them names, and then reiterated we'd do the same all over again, I think the thrust of the conversation here would be slightly different. --NeilN 19:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course, Rivertorch, you're right. Thanks for getting us back on track. I agree with your assessment but also note the discussion (above) with the last comment by The Bushranger where we mention having a discussion (on RSN?) about what constitutes "tabloid journalism" and what is not on that list. There are a range of opinions on whether this should be an actual list of tabloids to avoid (if there isn't a more reliable source available) or a set of criteria that makes journalism cross over from legitimate to "tabloidish". I definitely think it shouldn't be up for debate every time an Editor edits an article on a public figure. Liz 21:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I started off in this discussion close to where I think @RegentsPark: is most recently. Since that time, though, partly based on John's response (there wasn't a lot of it) here, I've shifted. Without expressing a firm opinion, though, I'd like to ask Flyer what they are asking for.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:44, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I'd obviously want it made clear to John by an administrator (not like there's any chance of him listening to a non-administrator) that he cannot continue to get away with acting the way that Rivertorch has described above. As People is consistently accepted as a reliable source for biographies of living persons across Misplaced Pages, John has no right to remove it from these articles in the careless way that he has been doing. If he continues to do so, then as I and Rivertorch have pointed out, this matter will be back at WP:ANI soon enough and/or it will go through the other means that Rivertorch described. But let's be real here: Nothing is going to be done with regard to John at this time. Flyer22 (talk) 01:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I would take John's lack of participation in this part of the thread to suggest that he has dropped the stick and backed slowly away from the horse carcass, and would suggest that everyone does likewise. I realise Flyer22 is probably not going to send him a Christmas card, but that's just the way things go sometimes. There are millions of articles on Misplaced Pages to edit, and hence it's pretty easy to just work on another topic for a bit. Ritchie333 07:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

John barely participated in the WP:BLP noticeboard discussion as well. That's apparently the way he is, as I've already noted and as others have similarly noted. He is not much of a communicator/debater, at least on Misplaced Pages, from what I've seen. He simply peeps in to reiterate that he is right and that he will continue to act up. If you think that he is going to stop acting inappropriately on this matter, even though he has assured that he will not, you are mistaken. As for John getting away with this mess, see above -- not surprising; I'm at least glad that various others have called out his behavior during this matter as disruptive, highly disruptive, concerning, a serious concern, etc., and that it's clear that some of us get special privilege. So go ahead and close this thread, and see that the problem (John's aforementioned inappropriate behavior) continues in part or in whole. Whatever. Flyer22 (talk) 08:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Note: There is this message from John that reaffirms that he will continue to act disruptively; he makes it very clear that he will continue to warn and/or block editors who use or restore even People sources on biographies of living persons, despite the clear WP:Consensus at the WP:BLP noticeboard on the use of People, the consistent consensus that has resulted from there and at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard regarding the use of this source, and despite the sufficient number of comments above about the inappropriateness of his behavior in this regard. Well, like I stated on my talk page, "If I come across John removing sources and/or the text that goes with it because of his personal dislike of those sources instead of whether or not they have actually been deemed unsuitable by Misplaced Pages policy and/or the Misplaced Pages community, I will revert him. ... It is especially important not to let him do so on WP:Good and WP:Featured articles." So, yes, we will be right back here at WP:ANI regarding this matter sooner or later. If he warns and/or blocks me, if I see him warn and/or block any editor, for using sources that have been deemed fine to use by Misplaced Pages policy and/or the Misplaced Pages community, I will seek that appropriate action be taken against him. It's already been noted by others above what will happen to him if he does block me for using or restoring such a source when it is a content dispute and not a BLP violation, but he obviously does not care about the consequences that will follow. And so it is what it is. Flyer22 (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive promotion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Billboarder22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sylfronia King (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Ariel de Lion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Billboarder22 is here to promote Sean Guerrier de Bey and entities related to de Bey. All of BB's edits revolve around that. Even more telling than BB's contributions are his deleted contributions. One of them is SmartWay Music Management, which supposedly was founded by De Bey and by Sylfronia King. Their "distributor" is World Live Music & Distribution, which was created by BB in 2010, deleted, recreated, and recently deleted as a result of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/World Live Music & Distribution (2nd nomination). Take a look at this Smartway page, which offers to create pages at Misplaced Pages and notes King Phaze (related to de Bey), the World Live Music page, the de Lion page, and Tots TV (as far as I know unrelated to BB and de Bey). The other company supposedly founded by de Bey that you see a lot is Reug Vision, another of BB's deleted pages.

As for edits to articles that are not de Bey-related, there are only a few:

• . This one added King Phaze, also known as Jonathan Rivera, who in 2010 did a few edits to the King Phaze article as User:Jonathanrivera.
• . This shows BB moving de Bey up in the list. An IP had earlier added de Bey. The IP's contributions are telling.
• . This shows BB adding Camryn Howard, another of his deleted articles, to the list of associated acts.

There are at least a few other named accounts that have been involved: User:Seandebey whose only contributions have been deleted and hasn't edited since September 2010; User:Poetry cow, whose only edits have been to de Lion (except one) and last edited on July 24, 2013. Poetry created the de Lion article and in its first iteration included de Bey, World Live Music, and King Phaze.

One thing that's important is many of the mentions of de Bey in the articles are either unsourced, or the provided sources do not support the material. For example, BB created Jenn Bocian in January 2013. Putting aside the incredibly promotional tone at the outset, it had the following sentence: "Her record company is also working close with record executive Sean Guerrier De Bey and Reug Vision for the purpose of marketing & promotions for future projects." The source was Boucian's own website. I don't know what it said back then, but currently it doesn't appear to say that, although the link is to the home page, and it might be buried somewhere. In the de Lion article, I removed today the mention of World Live Music as the blog source never mentioned it. Another editor removed the unsupported reference to de Bey.

I could provide more evidence, but this is already too long.

I propose an indefinite block of Billboarder22 for being here only to promote, and for doing so in a disruptive (often misleading and unsupported) manner.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support Another example is this edit, in which BB adds Sean Guerrier De Bey to the list of notable music executives, alongside Irving Azoff, Jimmy Iovine, Clive Davis, David Geffen et al. There's more, but I'll follow Bbb23's lead and leave it at that; there's already ample reason to support an indefinite block of Billboarder22.JSFarman (talk) 17:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC) .
•  Done Anything else? Drmies (talk) 23:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Use of Misplaced Pages Logo by SmartWay

When I came across this section I had a look at " this Smartway page", as linked above and was concerned that they are using the Misplaced Pages logo on a page promoting paid editing "standard page $499"(!) Surely this is a breach of the applicable terms of use of that logo? I had a look at wmf:Trademark Policy and it seems that without permission they are breaching the Foundations trademark.©®™ 220 of 01:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

The Smartway page clearly conveys the impression that their service is in someway approved by the WMF. This issue is best referred to the Foundation's legal department. See Misplaced Pages:Contact us. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I have just sent an email to the email address listed at the contact us page. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 02:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, except for Tots TV. all the pages listed in that advertisement as sample of their work have now been deleted, so it isn't a very effective advertisement any more. Still, this is an instance of misuse that would I think warrant action. DGG ( talk ) 03:21, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Great, thanks guys. Hope Jimbo gives 'em a good 'kick up the Khyber'. Concur that that page is a poor advert, very sucky layout too.® 220 of 13:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Bad faith editing and BLP vios by Kaylatiger23 at Julia Mora

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Julia Mora (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Kaylatiger23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User has repeatedly edited this biography, attempting to insert a badly sourced DOB. It looks like one of those off-Wiki imported "I don't like it" disputes. The subsequent edit warring resulted in them calling other editors "homeless bum" and the subject a "homeless prostitute". Reported to OTRS by whom I assume is the subject's agent ticket:2013091510011044. Not sure if there is a block forthcoming but at the very least there's a lot of revdel needed to eliminate the user's insulting edit summaries. §FreeRangeFrog 15:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I blocked the account indefinitely for repeated BLP violations, which appears to be the sole purpose of the account. In order to prevent Kaylatiger23 from repeating the contentious material and attacks on their talk page, I have blocked without talk page access and pointed them to UTRS. I'll start combing through their edits now and see which of them require revision deletion. The OTRS ticket noted a few, but there are certainly more based on a quick review of the contribs. --Jezebel'sPonyo 20:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet

Treasure89 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Treasure89 added the same info, with the same edit summary.

Sockpuppet indicator: birthyear of Treasure(19)89 + age of (Kaylatiger)23 = 2012. Apparently Kayla/Treasure is born late 1989.

HandsomeFella (talk) 18:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• I can see one edit by the master that certainly should've been RevDelled, given its summary (I won't link to it, per BLP and WP:BEANS) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:58, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

The sock account is blocked and I have deleted the offending edit that I missed before. Thanks for noting it.--Jezebel'sPonyo 17:21, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

previously sanctioned user returning to edit under a new name

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have previously posted some of the details of his case as part of an SPI request linking this user to another account, but was instructed by an administrator (User: EdJohnston) that this is actually an issue for ANI, rather than SPI, so I am listing it here, as well. Back in October 2010, while an ANI involving User:Factomancer (and which resulted in an interaction ban on her and another user) was on-going, that user decided to leave wikipedia for good, and announced it in a "departure tirade", involving personal attacks. (see User_talk:Factomancer#Goodbye) Those personal attacks resulted in a 1 month block, with the blocking admin stating "Factomancer, I'm taking you as your word, and that you have left for good.", and that if she returns, an indef topic ban from I/P article may be needed (Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Factomancer&diff=prev&oldid=393217316)

This user eventually returned as User:Eptified, and continues to edit in the I/P topic area (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Eptified&dir=prev&offset=20120805032454&target=Eptified). Is this appropriate? Sisoo vesimhu (talk) 17:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• Sisoo vesimhu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Before this inquiry goes much farther, I'd like to ask Sisoo vesimhu to comment on the checkuser finding here that he is the same editor as GoGoTob2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The propriety of an editor using two separate accounts to edit the ARBPIA space can be questioned. I'm notifying User:Elockid that his finding was mentioned here. EdJohnston (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I edit from within a fairly large company, and it would not surprise me if there are others at our company editing Misplaced Pages with the same IP. I agree that the propriety of an editor using two separate accounts to edit the ARBPIA space can be questioned - this is exactly what I was doing in the SPI report I mentioned above - pointing out that User:Eptified is editing the same topic area under User:Sepsis II. Surprisingly, I was told by User:Elockid that this would not be sock puppetry. Let's try to have some consistent standards, please. Sisoo vesimhu (talk) 18:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Does your company have a code of conduct that requires honesty and integrity from its employees ? Sean.hoyland - talk 19:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The above is false. The SPI I referred too included this link - http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/stalker/?db=enwiki_p&user1=Factomancer&user2=Eptified&user3=Sepsis+II - which not only mentions Eptified in the URL, but shows an overlap between that account an the other 2 socks, an overlap of 7 articles. It's no great mystery that the Factomancer account is the same as Eptified, as that information is given clearly, both here and here. Perhaps naively, I assumed users actually look at the evidence, and did not need to be spoon-fed, but after being corrected on this point by EdJohnston (who , BTW, wrote to me an e-mail saying 'Eptified has openly stated they are the same user as Factomancer.' - so obviously that point was not lost on those who were actually looking at the report and evidence), I added some clarifications to the SPI to make it explicit even for the likes of RolandR Sisoo vesimhu (talk) 21:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Hang on, you're complaining about an account who's last obvious edit to the I/P area is in 2012?! Seriously? Wow... Ravensfire (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

May I note that, Sisoo vesimhu (talk · contribs) was editing under a CU blocked sticky dynamic IP (this means that it's basically static for long period of time). I have contacted the blocking CheckUser to take a look at this thread. Elockid 13:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Upon closer examination. There appears to be some relation between Sisoo vesimhu and NoCal100 (talk · contribs). Elockid 13:59, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Help needed against a disruptive editor

Saladin1987 (talk · contribs), a disruptive POV-pushing edit-warrior, appears to be a single purpose account used by a Pakistani from the Sydney area of Australia who is constantly changing famous people's ethnicity. In particular, he is changing Pashtun people to Punjabi people even when the sources say Pashtun people. He doesn't use talk pages of articles but instead tells me on my talk page his personal views, theories and speculations. He is very much determined to change the correctly sourced "Pathan" to Punjabi in Prithviraj Kapoor. Mr. Kapoor proudly identified himself as "Pathan" to everyone and spoke Pashto (the native language of Pathans), and all of this is well sourced. In addition, Mr. Kapoor had pure Pathan physical features and even named one of his first plays "Pathan" so that obviously shows how much his ethnicity meant to him, but Saladin1987 prefers to make him a Punjabi. I think Saladin1987's edits are motivated by ethnocentrism. Btw, he was warned recently and it appears that he decided to use IPs. There may be some kind of sock puppeting going on, he's always active but doesn't edit much, which suggests that he may be using another account.--Fareed30 (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

If you look at his work history he is the one who has removed my sources and placed his but even then i didnt change the article but to him his sources are correct but he keeps on winging about pathan thing but where did my sources go, all have been deleted or are still there but he just pushed his opinions oveer there. There is no need to mention about the ethnicity when its completey disputed, He states facts like he did play pathan but he acted in many punjabi movies not in pashto movies, he spoke hindko and even his frends from the place confirm that but he romved those sources also his children identify themselves as punjabi so maybe an English can give birth to a german , then i will accept it. Also about the features to have fair skin doesnt mean he is pathan, i can show you many dark skinned pashtuns so they are not pashtuns, I just want to request that if you can remove the ethnicity in this article and then everything will be resolved,What he does is comes and posts ethnicity in the articles, he doesnt contribute positively just contributes in the ethnicity categorySaladin1987 07:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saladin1987 (talk • contribs)

You add unreliable and irrelevant sources so they must to be removed. Not only me but others also revert your edits. Those sources that you try to add are talking about this subject's "grandchildren" and they do not mention anything about ethnicity. On the other hand, at Talk:Prithviraj Kapoor, this subject's son makes it very clear to us that Prithviraj Kapoor was Pathan by ethnicity. Where Prithviraj was born or in which country's movies he appeared in has nothing to do with his ethnicity. In Bollywood, Muslim actors pretend to be Hindus but that doesn't mean anything because movies are fake.--Fareed30 (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Saladin1987 previously blocked and warned last month that next block would be indef. N.B. I've not evaluated the Pashtun/Punjabi sources. -- Trevj (talk) 11:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Trevj, I had started a discussion at Talk:Prithviraj Kapoor where his son Shammi Kapoor orally states "my parents belonged to Peshawar, they were born there then they entered Bombay... we all belong to a community called the Hindu Pathan... Muslim Pathan". You can listen to his voice for yourself here. Another RS states: "Kapoor, a Hindu Pashtun, made it" and this RS clearly describes him as Pathan. Bwt, Pathan and Pashtun are synonymous terms and they both redirect to each other. On the other hand, pov-pushing Saladin1987 is rejecting all of these sources and relying on his personal analysis, this is not allowed in Misplaced Pages, and Saladin1987 is purposly disrupting and wasting our time here. He has now indicated on my talk that after his this account gets blocked, his friends in Pakistan will start reverting to keep his version. I think blocking him is justified and anyone who reverts to his version should get it too because these guys are here for causing disruption.--Fareed30 (talk) 15:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

the thing is that there is a lot of mention regarding his ethnicity and as i know the surname is kapoor and his grandchildren have already approved that they are punjabi just he had a pathan mindset , its like me saying durani living in punjab are punjabis but no worries i really dont wanto to continue this conversation , i would appreciate if this ethnicity term is removed and so that all the people who consider him as punjabi and the ones who consider him as pathan (Pashtun n pathan is not synonymous)(like every khan is not pathan in the same manner,,khans were mongolian but to fareed30 khan is pathan or pashtun). So i would appreciate if you could just remove these terms and i really woudl appreciate it and so as many people who know that he is punjabi just like pakistanis in britian call themselves british doesnt make them britishSaladin1987 07:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saladin1987 (talk • contribs)

Of course Pakistanis living in Britain are British; no need to repeat EDL propaganda here! RolandR (talk) 07:26, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Indeed! Anyway, this really seems to be an issue of content/sources/interpretation/POV/MOS. WP:OPENPARA recommends not emphasising ethnicity in the opening paragraph (which doesn't seem to be the case, but worth remarking anyway), unless relevant to notability. The ethnicity of subjects should be how they themselves choose to identify, although if this has been contended by reliable sources then that may deserve a due weight mention. Have members of WP:WPBIO and WP:INDIA been informed of specific discussions such as Talk:Prithviraj Kapoor#Pathan/Pashtun ethnicity of Prithviraj Kapoor and Talk:Shammi Kapoor#Ethnically he was Pathan? If not, it may be beneficial to notify them. -- Trevj (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed but whenever there is a mention of them its usaully british pakistani never heard of just british word used . Also alot of sources say that he is punjabi even the sources that are present in fareed30 sources say that he is punjabi, not only this i will post the links here in some time and you can see that theere are many links to prove that they are punjabi but at the same time there are links for pathan , so i think it shud be better if we can just remove the ethnicity, Also fareed30 has changed the article Rajkapoor and mentioned his ethnicity over there but raj kapoor never said he was pathan so he basically edited it on the terms that prithvi identified himselef as pathan so is his son going to be but then all rishi, randhir, kareena, karishma idetify themselves as punjabi so i think raj kapoor article needs to be refreshed and the ethnicity term needs to be removed. Thankyou so much for the replies , i will notify themSaladin1987 22:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saladin1987 (talk • contribs)

I've now notified members of the WikiProjects, using {{Pls}} on the respective project talk pages. The subject matter seems to require further discussion between editors, with a focus on ensuring that content is presented from a neutral point of view, according to reports in reliable sources and with no original research (such as poorly sourced claims about ethnicity). Is there anything I've missed? -- Trevj (talk) 08:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Due to the currently backlogged sockpuppet investigations and apparently limited recent behavioural evidence, I don't know how productive pursuing this course of action would be at this point in time. -- Trevj (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Alexis Reich move discussion

I'd like to get some eyes on the situation at Talk:Alexis Reich. The article is about a person who transitioned from male to female, and the article is currently at the female name. There is currently a move request underway in which a move to the previous name is proposed by Obiwankenobi (talk · contribs) per WP:COMMONNAME. Sceptre (talk · contribs) performed a non admin close of the discussion here, instructing that it not be re-opened per BLP without gaining consensus on a noticeboard thread. The close was reverted by NE Ent (talk · contribs). I don't want to see a repeat of the Manning debacle, so I thought I'd take the situation here for community input. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, this seems like an entire exercise to prove the point that WP:CommonName should override WP:BLP. I just a few days ago removed from the article the unsourced convictions in the info box - possession of Child pornography, False confession, Battery , Obstruction of justice because there seems to be no sourcing to support them. I also removed the category "American people convicted of child pornography offenses." People may rightly find Reich is strange and likely delusional but she is still a human being and should not be convicted only on Misplaced Pages when no other sources do. Likewise we shouldn't push her article back into the closet. Renaming the article will not help anything. Sportfan5000 (talk) 02:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration Committee#Case-related discussion NE Ent 10:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes he, appears to have voted in it and closed it, just as he on the Bradley Manning talkpage.

I've always understood that if you vote on something, you shouldn't be the one to close it  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  11:11, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked for 48 hours for the personal attacks. GiantSnowman 12:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Catholic school you say? Think this ol' template might help?

Attention Your IP address 163.150.225.201 will be logged by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc and disseminated publicly. Violators of our Terms of Use can and will offend THE LORD, who takes defacement, knowingly providing false information, and/or uploading copyrighted material without permission from rights holders very seriously. Ephesians 4:29 commands that you refrain from such corrupt communication. Failure to repent of these sinful actions can result in everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), with the smoke of your torment ascending up for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11), after you are cast into Hell, where your worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44, 46 and 48). Submit to the powers that be (Romans 13:1) and pray that you not be led into such temptation, but be delivered from evil. As irrevocably as your soul may be condemned to eternal punishment for violating the sanctity of this encyclopedia, you agree to release your contributions under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL.

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