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First slave?

"The first enslaved Africans arrived in what is now the United States as part of the San Miguel de Gualdape colony (most likely located in the Winyah Bay area of present-day South Carolina), founded by Spanish explorer Lucas Vásquez de Ayllón in 1526" from Slavery_in_http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:John_Punch_(slave)&action=editthe_colonial_United_States extracted July 30, 2012

It seems doubtful that John Punch was actually the first US slave, even if Ancestory.com claims it is so --24.138.73.44 (talk) 01:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. The HT quote is "...it has led some historians to regard him as the first African to be legally sanctioned as a slave". So right off the bat, it's only some historians (who?), and it's from a documented legal proceeding. (Citation needed.) No doubt there were many more brought to the continent before him. Ancestry.com is in fact concluding he was legally the first US slave, saying, "All evidence gathered to date offers persuasive arguments that point to John Punch, the first African in Colonial Virginia sentenced to a lifetime of servitude—the first slave." (http://c.mfcreative.com/offer/us/obama_bunch/PDF/main_article_final.pdf) But of course, we can't just take their word for it need historians' input cited here, too. Ruodyssey (talk) 02:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

History is made by documents, right? He's the first documented slave. Speciate (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Conjecture at best. Another lame attempt at revisionist history. - ZandoviseZandovise (talk) 17:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Punch was declared a servant for life, but see John Casor, who was actually declared a slave. There is a difference. See Edmund Morgan's American Slavery, American Freedom, etc. TuckerResearch (talk) 17:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

And if other historians declare Casor the first slave, it is hardly unanimous that Punch was. Use of the word "some," then, is not weaselly, it is elucidating fact. I hope my improvements to the article make everything better. TuckerResearch (talk) 17:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Russell in 1913 and Catterall in 1926 note the John Punch case as being significant for being the first "documented" account of a slave in the Virginia colony, as well as differentiating his treatment as "a negro" - sentencing to life inservitude, from that of the men from the Netherlands and Scotland, whose indentures were extended. This is the consensus of historians. It is a specific definition; it does not mean there were not other slaves, but he is the first to be documented. See newly added cites to the article, including an online scanned e-text of the 1913 book, which includes the short record of the court case. John Casor was the first to be declared a slave "as a result of a civil suit", another specific qualification: his master Robert Parker was sued by his previous master Johnson, and the court defined Casor as a slave, ordering him returned to Johnson.Parkwells (talk) 22:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Obama link

Until this has been published in a peer-reviewed journal, the wording should be very careful indeed. hgilbert (talk) 12:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Since you are concerned about being careful, I've replaced the second mention of Ancestry.com so people know where this comes from. So they don't think it comes from a peer-reviewed journal. (And I doubt we'll ever get that.) Also, since you're concerned about wording, I restored the original wording. The wording you had implied that they ran a yDNA test on a Dunham, found some African ancestry, then connected him to Punch via standard genealogical research. Instead, they connected the Dunhams to the Bunches via standard genealogical research, then ran yDNA on male Bunch descendants (they can't run yDNA on Dunham's line), found African ancestry, and then made a genealogical/historical guess that connected Bunch to Punch. TuckerResearch (talk) 20:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It would be good to clarify exactly that in the article, especially the "guess" part. hgilbert (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The "guess" is the same thing that historians do all the time, I don't think it's a giant leap. I should have said "supposition" instead. I think the word "probably" in the article adds enough doubt. TuckerResearch (talk) 21:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Not all the time; historians are careful to distinguish between well-supported links, as in the latter generations of the Bunch family, and guesswork. We should be equally careful here. hgilbert (talk) 21:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I changed "guesswork" to "supposition." The link Ancestry.com made is a solid one, one based on the best genealogical, historical, and genetic evidence available. Using "guess" or "guesswork" makes it seem as if they made the suggestion half-cocked, when in fact, they made a good link based on logic and evidence. The only way it could be more sure is a birth certificate or a will, both of which aren't there (and even then, illegitimacy could again destroy such a link... there's no such thing as a 100% solid fact in history). TuckerResearch (talk) 21:44, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

African American?

How can he be "African American" if the USA didn't exist at the time? Surely "African" is more correct and appropriate?--ukexpat (talk) 16:06, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Africa and America are continents, both of which existed at the time. hgilbert (talk) 17:21, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree with ukexpat - calling him 'African-American' seems wildly anachronistic to me. It's like referring to Montezuma II as 'Mexican' before Mexico as we know it existed. There was no United States of America at the time, so he couldn't have been 'American'. I'm going to change it to simply 'Black', which is presumably what is meant here. Robofish (talk) 18:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I just changed the link to black. We could of course unlink it completely.--ukexpat (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

He was African, born in Africa; there isn't any question about that. Agree that African American refers to later generations of American-born people.Parkwells (talk) 18:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

3O John Punch Slave or not

This section was added to seek a third opinion on the status of John Punch after his sentencing in 1640. Scoobydunk says that John Punch was made a slave as the result of his court case in 1640. WLRoss says that John Punch's contract as an indentured servant was extended and therefore he was not a slave. Please see the following talk pages and discussions regarding John Punch for more information:

23:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Here are the sources I've found of historians describing how John Punch became a slave as the result of his trial in 1640.

• "Punch, in effect, became a slave under this ruling." Toppin, Edgar (2010). The Black American in United States History.
• "Thus, the black man, John Punch, became a slave unlike the two white indentured servants who merely had to serve a longer term. This was the first known case in Virginia involving slavery." Edgar A. Toppin, A Biographical History of Blacks in America Since 1528.
• "John Punch's status was changed from an indentured servant to a slave," resulting from his court case. Henry Robert Burke. "Links To The Past".
• 1640, Punch was the "first documented slave for life." http://www.nps.gov/jame/historyculture/african-americans-at-jamestown.htm
• In regarding Punch "...'the third,being a negro,' was reduced from his former condition of servitude for a limited time to a condition of slavery for life."John Henderson Russell. "The Free Negro In Virginia, 1619-1865". p.30.
• "The third, 'being a negro named John Punch shall serve his master or his assigns for the time of his natural Life here or elsewhere.' This case , antedating that of John Casor by four years, made a Negro a slave for life as a penalty for the crime of running away." Virginia Writers' Project, "The Negro in Verginia". p.14
• "Thus, although he committed the same crime as the Dutchman and the Scotsman, John Punch, a black man, was sentenced to lifetime slavery." A. Leon Higginbotham. "In the Matter of Color: Race and the American Legal Process: The Colonial Period.
• "July 9, 1640 - A Virginia court decision describes three runaway servants—two white and one black—who were captured in Maryland. The two white servants are sentenced to additional years of service. The black man, John Punch, is made a slave for life, possibly marking the first legal distinction between Europeans and Africans in Virginia's courts." Tom Costa, http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Runaway_Slaves_and_Servants_in_Colonial_Virginia#contrib

My sources clearly explain how John Punch was sentenced to slavery and became a slave. WLRoss argues that Punch wasn't a slave and remained an indentured servant. I'm sure he'll list all of his sources indicating that below.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:21, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The sources you posted are irrelevant, please provide sources that Punch was a legally recognized slave. That some people consider indentured servitude slavery is not the argument. Also, please do not speak on my behalf, that is a violation of WP:NPA. Wayne (talk) 12:32, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The sources I listed are completely relevant because they all confirm that John Punch became a slave as the result of his trial. "That some people consider indentured servitude slavery is not the argmunt," it is, because you just argued that Punch didn't become a slave and remained an indentured servant and implied all of the sources and historians I listed are wrong. So where are your reliable sources for that assertion?Scoobydunk (talk) 16:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Third Opinion

Well, I found my way here after one of you requested a third opinion. At this point, I've spent about forty minutes reading through the article and your discussions, so I feel like I have a halfway decent grasp of the issue although I might well be missing chunks.

Let me summarize my initial reactions here so that you can critique them.

1. The article in its current state seems pretty well-researched and well-written. I haven't looked much at the history, so I really don't know which of you is most responsible for this version.
2. You've been having a pretty massive and uncivil disagreement, but on a cursory inspection neither one of you seems unambiguously in the right.
3. The core issue seems to be whether to characterize Punch after his 1640 trial as (a) an indentured servant punished with life servitude, (b) effectively a slave, or (c) a slave without qualification.
4. Pretty much all the sources that have been quoted lean towards using the term slavery rather than indentured servitude, which is most compatible with characterizations (b) and (c).

Let me know if this seems accurate to you. To be honest, I have very little idea whether this will please zero, one, or both of you. —Neil 21:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to provide a third opinion. I don't think (b) is an accurate way to characterize the issue because that was a misrepresentation of a single quote from Toppin and I found an additional source from Toppin where he distinctively qualifies Punch as a slave and even says this was the first case in Virginia involving slavery. I also feel (b) would be a completely different discussion about what qualifies as "slavery". thus requiring it's own dispute resolution. Regardless of how people may want to personally define slavery, I'll just stick to what historians and reliable sources say. Understanding that, the issue largely comes down to whether John Punch became a slave or not. I've provided numerous sources using specific language describing John Punch as a slave as the result of this ruling. No reliable sources have been quoted or cited contesting this view held by historians or asserting that Punch wasn't a slave but was still an indentured servant, and the opposing view seems to stem entirely from original research, which is against WP:OR. I appreciate your opinion, though I do find it to be a little noncommittal. Scoobydunk (talk) 22:34, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

You are misrepresenting the sources. None of them say he was the first "legally recognized" slave. Calling indentured servitude a type of slavery is irrelevant. Wayne (talk) 10:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I am not misrepresenting the sources, they speak for themselves. Historians clearly consider this case as the first time a negro was sentenced to slavery in Virginia. The court legally recognized that John Punch was to serve Hugh Gwyn for the remainder of his life. Historians call this "slavery" and therefore the court legally recognized slavery. Again, indentured servitude isn't slavery and these sources, for the most part, clearly explain how Punch WAS an indentured servant and then BECAME a slave due to this legal ruling, which is a legal recognition. They don't have to say "legally recognized" for it to be a legal recognition. It's a legal recognition because it was a sentence officially and legally determined by the court, and is therefore recognized by the court. Again, you try to dismiss these sources as equating indentured servitude to slavery, and they are not. They are making a clear distinction between the two and explain how Punch was once and indentured servant and then became a slave. I've yet to see your sources advocating that Punch remained an indentured servant after his court case. Where are they? Oh, here are some more sources of my own.

• "Thus, John Punch became the first African to be a slave for life, by law, in Virginia." Encyclopedia of African American History Volume 3.
• "John Punch decision therefore, did not just establish and set the legal basis for slavery in America, it was the first racial decision in America." Amechi Okolo, Ph.D. "The State of the American Mind: Stupor and Pathetic Docility."
• A year later, in the case of John Punch, the General Court of Virginia recorded the first unambiguous example of the enslavement of an individual Negro, as punishment for having run away." Francis Adams, Barry Sanders, "Alienable Rights: The Exclusion of African Americans in a White Man's Land, 1619-2000."

All of these confirm that Punch was legally recognized as a slave "by law", emphasizes the importance of the decision in establishing the basis for slavery in America, or explains that this was the first unambiguous example of enslavement of a Negro, as punishment for running away. I also want to point out that another editor agrees that the sources agree with the notion that John Punch became a slave as the result of his trial.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I have a feeling you've both been over this ground many times before. Since both of you seemed relatively satisfied with my initial findings, I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on how to describe Punch after his trial.

1. Scoobydunk, you've provided a significant number of reliable sources that suggest than the historical consensus considers Punch a slave. I would remind you that quality trumps quantity, because some of them are fairly weak: for example, Okolo's The State of the American Mind is self-published and Russell's The Free Negro in Virginia is a doctoral dissertation from 1913. However, others, like Toppin (2010), Higginbotham (1980), and Costa (2011) are very strong, so I think you've made a very credible point.
2. Wayne, you can certainly try to rebut this and prove that some historians consider Punch an indentured servant for life. But you'd have to advance some reliable sources to support that, and I don't think I've seen you do that. You might think the historians Scoobydunk cites are wrong; you might even be right about that. But on Misplaced Pages, that's original research and that doesn't fly.
3. However, even if Scoobydunk's sources accurately represent the historical consensus, this issue of slavery versus indentured servitude isn't completely clear cut, and historians can only make educated conjectures about what, exactly, the Governor's Council intended Punch's status to be. So it seems very sensible to say that Punch was effectively a slave. Toppin (2010) does exactly that.

Here's an example of wording that seems fair to me:

This case marks one of the first cases in colonial America where a racial distinction was made between black and white indentured servants. Most historians believe that the ruling effectively made Punch a slave, and consider the episode a milestone in the development of African American slavery in the United States. Edgar Toppin wrote...

Let me know what you think. —Neil 15:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not a case where the wording has to be "fair"; the consensus of historians has to be recognized and presented, and that is, that the court's decision made Punch a slave for life. Whether "weaker" sources also cite what is the consensus position does not weaken the position as established by RS, and Scoobydunk has established that.Parkwells (talk) 18:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, when I said "fair", I meant "fair summary of the scholarly consensus". And I tried to make it clear that I wasn't discounting the strong sources just because they were mixed in with weaker ones. So on these two points we agree completely. If you're also saying that "most historians believe" is too watered down given the sources we've seen, I can kind of see that. I could certainly support "historians agree the ruling effectively made Punch a slave," for example.—Neil 18:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Neil, thank you again for your input. I would be perfectly fine with your well written alternative if it weren't for 3 things:

• I'd be willing to use the language of "most" to represent a "majority" opinion if there was an actual reliable source that expressed an opinion that Punch was never made a slave. Since WLRoss can provide no reliable sources, then there is no need to give such a claim any weight, mention, or inference. As per WP:OR, if a minority opinion is expressed by a reliable and notable authority then we can provide appropriate context for the differing opinions, establishing a minority view vs. a majority view. However, WP:OR also says that if a minority opinion isn't expressed by a notable authority and is not reliable, then it doesn't deserve being mentioned at all.
• The next concern I have is that only one historian said "in effect", so it's not accurate to reflect all the other historians with this sentiment. The point being made by most of these sources is that this was a definitive moment in Virginia's history that documented an indentured servant becoming a slave. Toppin unambiguously declares this more robustly in his earlier work.
• The final concern is that using "effectively" conflicts with WP:editorial and the way you presented it conflicts with WP:OR. You expressed a doubt of what the Governor's Council intended and you're the one making a determination that historians can only make educated conjectures, so you chose the word "effectively" to reflect your doubts(original research) on what historians consider to be a legal determination of slavery. Though I may agree with your own conjecture, it is still original research and the majority of historians don't claim that he "effectively" became a slave. If you had another reliable source making such an argument about the conjecture of historians and that Punch was only considered a slave in effect, then it could be added as a "minority" or "contesting" opinion, but it wouldn't suffice to let this point of view be representative of what the other historians actually thought or said.

Thank you for pointing out Okolo. I did not realize this was self published. I was hesitant about citing him because a lot of the things he says seem to be a little bit too aggressive and now I understand why he didn't have a more tempered approach. Good catch. I'm glad more people are contributing.Scoobydunk (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

To your first point, I agreed with Parkwells above that, in the absence of any sources suggesting scholarly dissent from the slavery viewpoint, it might make more sense to just say "Historians agree..." To your second point, about "effectively", I am not familiar enough with the issue and the sources to take a hard line. However, I don't feel that "in effect" is a misrepresentation or editorializing. It's hardly controversial or original research to say that history isn't an exact science, and many of the sources you cite hedge a little bit, whether by saying "in effect" or saying "slavery for life"/"lifetime slavery" rather than just "slavery". At any rate, I think the presence of "in effect" is pretty insignificant to the meaning of the statement, so I'm honestly not that interested in debating it. It just seems like an opportunity for a small gesture of goodwill that doesn't harm the article's accuracy. —Neil 21:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Adding "effectively" is significant. First, most historians don't say "effectively" so to characterize most historians as saying such is a misrepresentation of what those historians said. Your examples of "slavery for life" and "lifetime slavery" are not used to instill a doubt or account for a possibility that John Punch might not been a slave, but are simply adjectives and prepositional phrases used to describe the length of his slavery, which is still slavery. You added "effectively" based on your own opinion that historians' viewpoints are only conjecture and that they can't know what the Governor's Council intended. That is original research. Though you may be right, you can not add the results of your own original research into an article, which you suggested to express a doubt in what historians consider to be slavery. Yes, historians are people and they make conjectures, but that doesn't mean as editors we can discredit or undermine the veracity of what they say by including our own qualifiers. That's exactly what WP:editorial and WP:OR describe. For another example, we can look at science. We know that science is constantly growing and sometimes things known as facts can cease to be fact. This doesn't mean that we can express this understanding to undermine what scientists believe. If most scientist believe that the Earth is round, I can't say "Most scientist believe the Earth is possibly round," or "...likely round," based on my own observations of science. If most scientist don't say "likely round" then I can't claim that they do say "likely round". It is a misrepresentation based on my own understanding of science, and is OR.

I'm all for goodwill, but it's not goodwill to instill our own doubts based on our opinions of historians and their ability/inability to interpret historical documents. The goodwill comes in the means of understanding that historians know what they are talking about and we should represent and respect their opinions as such. If two or more historians directly disagree on a subject or fact, then we can represent those disagreements giving them their own due weight. We cannot, however, use our own opinions to convey a doubtful alternative to what historians assert. This how you specifically described the reason for your inclusion of "effectively," as an opinion that historians conjecture and can't possibly know what the intent of the Governor's Council was, therefore you were going to insert language to represent your opinion of doubt in their abilities to accurately access historical documents and court rulings. That's original research. I just don't feel the article should reflect your concerns on the ability of historians to evaluate terminology and their applications to history. Sorry, if this comes off as "being a dick". I respect the time you've spent contributing to this discussion and I respect your opinion, otherwise I wouldn't be spending the time addressing it and would just ignore it or dismiss it completely. Thank you again for your continued input, I do feel this is an important aspect to discuss.Scoobydunk (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate that you've spent a lot of time on this issue, but I honestly think you're taking an extremely broad view of original research and making a mountain out of a very small, peripheral molehill. When I looked through your discussion with Wayne, I saw some real avalanches of text that you had written; if a lot of them revolved around this issue, you may want to think about choosing your battles a bit more carefully in the future. At any rate, you've heard my perspective so I'll bow out of the "effectively" issue now. The article looks good so far; if you guys want my opinion on some other aspect, you can drop me a line. —Neil 23:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I added "effectively" some time ago but it was rejected/reverted by Scoobydunk who quoted an earlier book by Toppin where he did not use the word in support. The claim that "historians' viewpoints are only conjecture and that they can't know what the Governor's Council intended" is far from original research and is basic premise of anthrological enquiry, at least one historian actually said that in regards to Punch. I believe it may have been Toppin but will need to look it up. The fact remains that Punch was a servant who committed a crime and was subsequently sentenced to SERVE for life while Casor, having committed no crime, was recognized as having no indenture and belonging to another party for life. Punch was not even the first person to be indentured for life and the court NEVER determined him to be a slave. Re:" It's a legal recognition because it was a sentence officially and legally determined by the court, and is therefore recognized by the court." You misrepresent what the court determined. The court specifically, and officially, said "serve" so it was servitude for life that was recognized by the court, in other words, effectively but not legally slavery. Wayne (talk) 09:04, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Wayne, I hear your point that "Punch was not even the first person to be indentured for life and the court NEVER determined him to be a slave", but you need to bring forward some reliable sources to support it. If you don't, there's no possible way it can go in the article no matter how sensible it may sound.

Also, to clarify, I did make the point that even historians cannot be completely certain what the Governor's Council intended, but I think it's far too strong to say "historians' viewpoints are only conjecture and that they can't know what the Governor's Council intended". —Neil 16:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

It's not far from original research. OR is broadly defined but they broke it up into subcategories to clear confusion and the subcategory that directly says it's a violation of OR is WP:editorial. "Effectively" is a synonym for "essentially" and "essentially" is specifically listed as one of the words for WP:editorial. On top of that, it is against WP:weight to represent all of the historians as saying "effectively", when only 1 said "in effect". SO you could argue it as an minority opinion if you want to, but that's if we even succumb to the idea that "in effect" and "effectively" have the same meaning, and they don't. There is a clear difference in connotation so to stay neutral, it should be quoted and not paraphrased. On top of that, you could hardly argue it as a minority opinion because that same author, definitively and unambiguously called him a "slave" in his other works. Everything @WLRoss: just wrote is entirely original research and is strictly a violation of wikipedia policies. He's yet to supply a single source to back up his opinion that Punch remained an indentured servant. He says the court case never said the word "slave" but fails to recognize that Casor's case didn't say "slave" either. As a matter of fact, the Casor case didn't even say Casor had to serve JOhnson for life, it only said he was still his property and had to be returned. According to historians and the sources I listed, Punch was the first legal slave in Virginia. No one is saying he was the first indentured for life, historians say he's the first documented slave. You're the only one claiming he was an indenture servant for life, something you've provided no sources for and it a result of your own opinion, thus violating WP:OR.Scoobydunk (talk) 16:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I think people should be careful to stick to what is claimed: Punch is considered the first "documented" slave in Virginia (emphasis added) - the distinction arises because this court case is documented. There may have been others without records but that is not important here. Let's just keep to the historic consensus.Parkwells (talk) 17:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree. Unless we hear of some compelling new sources, we can safely say that after his trial, historians consider Punch the first documented slave in the Virginia colony. —Neil 17:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll happily settle for after his trial, historians consider Punch the first legally documented slave in the Virginia colony. It wasn't documented in some shipping transcript or captains log, it wasn't documented in private journal, it was documented in an official court record as the ruling of the court, which is a legal document. That's the whole significance of this thing, that is was the Virginia court recording and documenting the first instance of slavery.Scoobydunk (talk) 18:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The following sets out the legal status of Punch/Casor including several which, while calling Punch a slave also name Casor as the first LEGAL slave.

• The Black American in United States History Edgar Allan Toppin 1973: "Punch in effect became a slave under this ruling...John Casor, in 1655, is the first black we know of to be made a slave in a civil case."
• Colonialism: Key Concepts in American History Darrell J. Kozlowski 2010: "There were no laws regarding slavery early in the Virginia colony's history. By 1640, however, the Virginia courts had sentenced at least one black servant to slavery. In 1654, John Casor, a black man, became the first legally recognized slave in the thirteen British North American colonies."
• A Look at the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments John Richard Conway 2008: "The Virginia colonial court upheld Johnson's claim. It is the first record of a person being declared a slave in this country."
• Black Yellow Dogs Ben Kinchlow 2008: "This is apparently the first legal sanction of slavery in the New World. From evidence found in legal documents, Anthony Johnson must be recognized as the nations first official legal slaveholder."
• The American Dream Stephen McDowell 2007: "This was the first judicial approval of life servitude, except as punishment for a crime."
• Slave trade and slavery John Henrik Clarke 1970: "That was the first recorded civil case in the history of Virginia establishing a person as a slave for life."
• The Negro in Virginia University of Michigan 1940: "Anthony Johnson perhaps holds the dubious distinction of being the first Virginian, black or white, to hold as a slave for life a negro who had committed no crime."

The following sets out what historians believe.

• History of Black Americans: From Africa to the emergence of the cotton kingdom Philip Sheldon Foner 1975: "They differ, however, on the exact status of the Negro during the time lag before slavery was established, and they argue over the date when enslavement took place...Some historians beliève that slavery may have existed from the very first arrival of the Negro in 1619, but others are of the opinion that the institution did not develop until the 1660s and that the status of the Negro until then was that of an indentured servant. Still others believe that the evidence is too sketchy to permit any definite conclusion either way...Servitude for life, one essence of slavery, occurred in July 1640, in a case involving three runaway servants—two white and one black...A precedent-setting case was that of Johnson v. Parker." Wayne (talk) 03:38, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is for John Punch not John Casor. None of the sources you've listed support your argument that Punch remained an indentured servant and didn't become a slave. We already went through dispute resolution about Johnson and Casor and a third opinion discredited your sources and agreed that sources most accurately reflected my position. But let's go ahead and debunk your sources again.

First we can get rid of these following sources because they only claim Casor was the first where no crime was involved or as the result of a civil case, which doesn't contradict my position on Punch because his was a criminal case that happened 14 years prior. As a matter of fact, they bolster my position because they recognize that someone before Casor was legally found to be a slave which is why they supplement/qualify their sentences with "civil case" or "not as the result of a crime".

• The Black American in United States History Edgar Allan Toppin 1973
• The American Dream Stephen McDowell 2007
• The Negro in Virginia University of Michigan 1940
• Slave trade and slavery John Henrik Clarke 1970
• Black Yellow Dogs Ben Kinchlow 2008

I see that you ignored this quote from Kinchlow in that same source, "This is apparently the first legal sanction of slavery (not for a crime) in the New World." That's why we can get rid of Kinchlow as well. Kinchlow is also a tertiary source that used other historians' research from internet sites. One of those sites listed in the notes for chapter 1(The chapter where your quote came from) is The Virtual Jamestown website. The Virtual Jamestown specifically says "John Punch became the first African to be a slave for life by law in Virginia." http://www.virtualjamestown.org/practise.html .

These next sources are either tertiary sources/textbooks, written for juveniles, or both and do not take precedence over reliable secondary sources or sources written for collegiate use.

• Colonialism: Key Concepts in American History Darrell J. Kozlowski 2010
• A Look at the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments John Richard Conway 2008

So, all that leaves is Foner, and Foner doesn't assert that Punch remained an indentured servant as the result of his trial. What you quoted only mentions a precedent set in Johnson v. Parker, which some of my sources define as a court recognizing that black people could own slaves. So after you've included all of this information which isn't relevant to whether Punch became a slave as a result of his trial or not, they still do nothing to support your position. You've been told all of this before by myself and another third opinion.Scoobydunk (talk) 04:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Wayne, thanks for providing your sources. Now we can try to weigh the evidence and move forward. Personally, I'm a bit confused because of the number of sources that have been cited and their varying quality. To help that, I'm starting a table below listing the strongest sources (including some I've found today). To include a source, let's say that it must be (a) a reliable source, (b) written by a credentialed historian (i.e., one with a Ph. D. and some relevant academic appointment) with specific expertise in the American colonial period or black slavery, and (c) published by an academic source like a journal, university press, or a specialized reference work in the last fifty years. Everyone, feel free to add to it, or discuss these criteria. —Neil 08:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Neil, that is an impressive table. I'm relatively new to Misplaced Pages editing, so maybe I'm just easily impressed, but I appreciate the amount of work you've spent on offering a third opinion and your research into verifying sources. I was hesitant to edit the table because I thought I'd mess it up, but it seems to have survived my addition unscathed. I added Winthrop Jordan and 2 of his works. Both were published by either a journal or university press and Jordan is an award winning author with a Ph. D.. Both sources say similar things, with slightly different wording. I included "Modern Tensions and the Origin of Slavery" because this article includes information and analysis on the price of negroes being sold in 1645 and 1643, providing additional evidence of Negroes serving for life. This first source was published in 1962, just outside of your 50 year range. If there is a firm reason for the 50 year limit, then I'll happily accept its removal, but I feel it's close enough. Of course, if these sources don't hold up to your strong source criteria, feel free to remove it and just let me know why. Thanks!Scoobydunk (talk) 17:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Scoobydunk, thanks! I have to say I'm having fun learning about race relations in 17th century Virginia. Your additions are great: I picked fifty years out of the air so we could focus on relatively modern sources, but a year here and there won't do any harm. I already feel like I have a better grasp on the consensus, but we can wait another day or two in case Wayne or Parkwells want to bring in any additional sources. —Neil 18:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Please review Paul Finkelman. He earned his masters and Ph. D. in American History and is considered one of the most cited legal experts. The reason I ask for review is because his expertise is more focused on the history of law and court cases. However, I feel since we're discussing court cases that helped define slavery, since he's educated in American History, and since he's written many books regarding slavery in America pre and post the revolutionary war, that his input is appropriate. His works have been published in numerous university presses, like Yale and University of North Carolina, and this particular reference was published by the Library of Congress.Scoobydunk (talk) 04:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

User:Scoobydunk is completely ignoring the argument. I'm not saying Punch was not considered a slave by some historians or that indentured servitude was not a form of slavery. My argument is that Casor, who had no indenture and had committed no crime, was the first legal slave. We can no more say that Punch was legally a slave than we can say that the large number of white servants sentenced to a life of servitude before Punch were legally slaves. Historians recognize the difference. Scoobydunk needs to supply sources claiming that Punch was legally a slave, not sources merely calling him a slave. That most of my sources speak of Casor is relevant because they call him the first legal slave while accepting that Punch was a type of slave. None of the sources listed as "strong" by Neil claim is was a legal designation. It is also bad faith to reject sources written as textbooks for "library, secondary school, and university-level curriculums" as "books written for juveniles". Foner is only quoted as a reliable source supporting the use of "some historians" in place of "most historians". Wayne (talk) 06:53, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring the argument, you keep trying to change the argument. You've said multiple times on multiple pages that indentured servitude was not slavery and contested that Punch remained an indentured servant and wasn't a slave. You said that MULTIPLE TIMES and have yet provided a single reference indicating that. Now you're trying to change the argument to a matter of semantics. I've listed multiple sources that say "legal distinction","by law", or recognize that Punch was made a slave by legal means through the legal process of the justice system, the same way Casor was. Also, disregarding your 6th grade textbooks is not bad faith. As per wp:reliable textbooks and tertiary sources "should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion." Since we have numerous secondary sources on the matter, the textbooks hold no relevance or precedence over what these secondary sources say, which is why they can be ignored for a detailed discussion, which is what we're having. This is why you're left with no sources to confirm your opinion that Casor was the first legal slave, because all the other secondary sources you listed recognize that Punch or others was/were legally made a slave(s) before him. Hence why they have to distinguish the Casor suit not with the word "legal" but with fact that it was a civil case where no crime was committed. To help cut down on the less reliable and tertiary sources that both of us have listed, Neil has created a table of strong reliable sources that should be used in coming to a resolution in this dispute. I suggest you start participating in the evolution of this discussion and find some strong reliable sources that support your position. Also, Foner only said "some historians" in regard to historians who considered the negroes landing in Jamestown in 1619 to be slaves. He didn't say "some historians" when addressing the status of Punch or what historians consider Punch.Scoobydunk (talk) 07:46, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

What I've said multiple times is that indentured servitude was not legally slavery. It is bad faith to call a public library or university-level curriculum textbook a "6th grade textbook". It is also bad faith to misrepresent a Misplaced Pages policy by leaving out part of the quote. Per WP:RS 1. "academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." 2. "Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. For example, a review article, monograph, or textbook is better than a primary research paper." 3. "Meta-analyses, textbooks, and scholarly review articles are preferred when available." The policy you are quoting applies only to tertiary source textbooks not secondary source textbooks. The Punch court case did not recognize him as a legal slave for life, it recognized him as a legal servant for life. Historians sometimes use the term slave for Punch NOT "legal slave." My sources say first legal slave for Casor, you need to find sources that call Punch a legal slave. Your interpretation of Foner is WP:OR. He said that historians are devided, that "some" believe X, "others" believe Y, "while others" believe Z. That supports the use of "some" or perhaps "many" for each, not "some" for the first and "most" for your preferred version. So far all of Niel's strong reliable sources support my argument, none claim Punch was legally the first slave. Wayne (talk) 08:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

You also said multiple times that Punch was not a slave and remained an indentured servant, so stop pretending you didn't. The textbooks I called 6th grade textbooks specifically say 6th grade and/or ages 11 and up in the book and as listed on google.books.com. So it's not bad faith at all and the fact that you keep accusing bad faith where none exists, can actually be seen as bad faith on your part. Everything you quoted on textbooks is what is preferred over primary sources or what can be used in general. These quotes of yours from the WP:reliable page do not contradict the statement that I quoted that "Tertiary sources such as compendia, encyclopedias, textbooks, obituaries, and other summarizing sources may be used to give overviews or summaries, but should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion." Also, WP:reliable says nothing about "secondary source textbooks" and the word "textbook" doesn't even exist on the secondary source page. This is clearly the result of your own OR in an attempt to justify using a tertiary source in place of a secondary source. Only 2 of your sources say "legal". One is a tertiary source and won't be used over secondary sources, and the other one says "legal sanction" but then supplements that with "not for a crime". Regardless, neither of those sources meet the strong source criteria set forth in this discussion. I didn't interpret Foner, I repeated exactly what he said. He didn't use "some historians" to refer to Punch or how historians regard Punch. He said it about slaves landing in 1619 Jamestown. I don't even think you know what OR is after you make such a baseless accusation. You're the one trying to say we should use "some historians" instead of "most historians" based on what Foner said about historians who consider slavery to have existed since their arrival in Jamestown in 1619. Lastly, if you read Neil's and my reliable sources, nearly all of them indicate the importance of Punch and his case as being either the first legal documentation of slavery or at least the first evidence of servitude for life as legally recognized by the courts. NONE, and I'll say this again, NONE of them regard Casor as the first legal slave, nor do they say Anthony Johnson was the first legally recognized slave holder, which is your ultimate argument that you've interjected back into this discussion. So, no, they don't support your position at all which is why you're so frantic to try and argue semantics, make an OR argument about Punch remaining an indentured servant, and misrepresent sources to try and discredit facts.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:37, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

You are using Google as a RS? Google may say "ages 11 and up" but that is the minimum standard, the sources themselves say public library to University level. Of course Casor is in the argument, when a RS calls Punch a slave and goes on to say that Casor was the first legal slave that shoots down the argument that Punch was the first legal slave. And I'm still waiting for you to provide sources supporting that Punch was a legal slave. Regarding the use of the word "most", per WP:RS/AC The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Stated simply, any statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors. Wayne (talk) 15:56, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

RS has to do with what's allowed in wikipedia articles, not with how we make decisions about things in the discussion page. Note how we link to the wikipedia articles to verify the credentials of the authors and historians we cite. You should probably take the time to read what Neil found because he used a different source verifying that Toppin was classified as a juvenile source. On top of that, it's a tertiary source and can't be used in place of reliable secondary sources. It's not so much the age group, but that it's a tertiary source that disqualifies it from the discussion where reliable secondary sources are available. The publisher does not meet our strong sources criteria and the source itself doesn't meet RS criteria when we have reliable strong secondary sources to use in its place. So you still don't have a RS that says Casor was the first legal slave. It's also about time you stop with this "legal slave" thing because a court ruling and sentence are legal recognition and legal adjudication. Therefore, the court recognized that Hugh Gwyn legally owned John Punch for life, which the sources below either call slavery, or say was the first case documenting one of the tenants of slavery. Hence, Hugh Gwyn was the first documented person to be made a legal slave holder. As far as "most" is concerned, that's fine. Our consensus will accurately represent the strong reliable sources. None of which say Casor was the first negro legally made a slave. Also, I suggest you check out the latest source I found to back up my position.Scoobydunk (talk) 16:47, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Strongest sources

That particular source from Winthrop can probably be rejected as a strong source because his claim that Punch was sentenced to "hereditary life time service" is not remotely supported by records. Wayne (talk) 06:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The strength of an author or source is not dependent upon what you feel is remotely supported by records. You also need to read the passage because he didn't say that Punch was sentenced to "hereditary life time service." Winthrop said that this was the first "trace" of life time heredity servitude in that fact that it was the first documented instance of life time servitude. It wasn't until later that heredity became part of the formula of slavery, but the Punch case was the first trace of what eventually became slavery as we know it. That was the point he was making and it's a point shared by just about all of the strong reliable sources listed here.Scoobydunk (talk) 07:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

It is not "what I feel", it is an indisputable fact that there are no supporting records for the claim. Punch was also not the first documented instance of life time servitude as there are earlier documented cases of life time servitude for whites and according to Toppin, there is also documentary evidence of life time servitude for blacks in the 1630s. Punch is merely the first documented "court case" involving a black sentenced to life in a country where the majority of court records are lost. Wayne (talk) 07:38, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

We will come to a consensus based on what the reliable sources do actually say and not based on merely your assertions, and that consensus will be based on material relevant to John Punch and John Casor. Also, Toppin fails the criteria for a reliable sources for 2 reasons. First, the book you quoted from is a text book and is therefore not considered a reliable source when dealing with other secondary sources, which North Shoreman informed you of weeks ago. Second, the publisher is not a scholarly journal, university press, or specialized reference work, it is a textbook publisher. Our first dispute resolution third opinion informed you of this, Neil specifically didn't include him in the table, most likely because of this, and now I'm telling you this. It does not meet the criteria of a strong reliable source, please remove it from the table.Scoobydunk (talk) 08:00, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Wayne, I hear your point. I have to say I disagree, but at this point I'm just focusing on defining which are the strong sources that we should rely on in taking the temperature of the scholarly consensus. Scoobydunk is correct here: I am deliberately excluding textbooks, because their function is to give a very broad, shallow overview and to abstract away some of the historical nuance. That type of literature definitely has its place, but it doesn't belong in a deep discussion of a very narrow point. Regarding Toppin's book, I was torn about including it, but I just noticed on Worldcat that one of its publisher-defined subject headings is "African Americans -- History -- Juvenile literature." That convinces me that we shouldn't include it. However, Foner (I think you originally brought that one) is a good source, and you should feel free to add more like it. —Neil 09:26, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Neil I just wanted to make sure that you're also checking sources for "John Casor". I feel whatever consensus we come to should include a comparison between the two and whatever criteria we use for John Punch also gets equally and fairly attributed to John Casor. For example, if we're going to make the consensus that historians debate about when slavery actually began, then I feel that also applies to how we describe John Casor. I feel the sources we've already listed as strong sources give an in depth look at colonial slavery in Virginia and equally apply to both John Punch and John Casor. However, I just wanted to make sure you weren't limiting your search to just "John Punch" as there might be some credible strong sources that don't mention Punch but mention Casor instead. This is what WLRoss should be doing, but since you're a neutral third opinion, I think you should be doing it as well to give both of our positions fair representation. I know this can be a bit laborious but thank you for your participation.-Scoobydunk (talk) 18:47, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I found a scholarly source from a historical sociologist that studied the history of racial oppression. Since many historians are keen are describing and analyzing the disparate treatment of blacks based on race in colonial Virginia, I think including the input of someone who specializes in race relations and sociology gives more credence to claims of that nature. Coates received his Ph. D. in sociology from the University of Chicago. He serves on the executive boards of the Southern Sociological Society and Sociologists without Borders and was the former chair of the Section of Race and Ethnic Minorities of the American Sociological Association.Scoobydunk (talk) 17:50, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Scoobydunk, good point about Casor. I found a couple of references to him in sources I had already logged, plus one new one at the bottom of the table. None of them cite him as a first. I don't consider Coates the strongest of sources on this point because, among other things, he cites a secondary source rather than primary sources for his knowledge of the Punch case, but I think it's within the bounds. I think we've gotten to the point where more sources would be superfluous. Let me sum up my conclusions:

• Almost every source explicitly uses the term "slave" when discussing Punch, and certainly none of them argue that he wasn't.
• Most of them make a point of calling him a lifelong or lifetime slave, I suspect because it's not clear that his slavery was hereditary (and may not have been at the time either).
• Six explicitly label him the first documented case of slavery, and none of the rest attempt to rebut this.

So I think we can very safely say: Punch's sentence is the first documented case of lifetime slavery in the Virginia colony, and he is often considered the colony's first slave, or something else with the key modifiers "documented", "lifetime", and "in Virginia". I'm also wondering if we should also remove the mention of Casor being the first slave in a civil case from his article unless we can find a strong historical source saying so. Toppin is our only one, and it's not the strongest. —Neil 01:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Have deleted Henry Robert Burke as a cited source, as his article, "Slavery in Virginia," is undated, on his personal website, and does not add new material to the discussion. Historians in 1913 and 1926, published by RS academic presses, established the facts about the case. Will add him as an External Link - he's an example of people who especially contribute to local history.Parkwells (talk) 18:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Lead

Have changed this to reflect longstanding historical consensus, with a 1913 work remarking on Punch having been made a slave for life.Parkwells (talk) 18:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

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