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Affiliated international legal entities

Since SSCS in the US has been barred from anti-whaling by a court (put loosely), and by everything Watson and SSCS say publicly, Sea Shepherd Australia is now conducting the anti-whaling activities, it would seem that a slight overhaul capturing that would be in order. 68.5.176.101 (talk) 14:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

"Eco-terrorism"

Terrorism is a crime. The SSCS has not been charged or convicted in any court - indeed, it is a 501 non-profit organization. The statements about "eco-terrorism" are merely statements of opinion and accusation made by those opposed to the SSCS. It is highly inappropriate to categorize this group unequivocally as "eco-terrorist" based on those allegations and accusations. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Terrorism is not only a crime--it's also a description used by governments and media to describe certain groups. A number of prominent groups, including parts of the US and other governments, have labeled the group as terrorist. I would agree with you that if some random person said "Group X is terrorist" we shouldn't include it, but if multiple national and international organizations do label them as such, then we should include those descriptions. I'm a little more inclined to agree with your removal of the pirates/piracy cats, because we should generally be more conservative with categories, but I'm still leaning a little bit more for inclusion. Also, your underlying argument is a little specious, because organizations cannot, by definition, be convicted of any crimes--only individuals can. By your logic, no organization could ever be labeled as a terrorist organization. And, of course, we're not labelling them as such--we're just saying that other relevant groups have done so. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

You're quite wrong. Organizations can be, and are, convicted of crimes. See BP pleading guilty to manslaughter for the Deepwater Horizon disaster.

We can and do certainly report that other people and organizations have accused SSCS of being "eco-terrorist." We might create a category entitled "Accused eco-terrorists." But the category "Eco-terrorism" factually asserts that the group is engaged in eco-terrorism, without nuance or caveat. That is unacceptable per WP:NPOV. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

These categories are, effectively, criminal accusations and must be removed until discussed per WP:NPOV. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Terrorism and piracy have specific definitions and are crimes. A proper category would indicate that they have been accused of eco-terrorism and accused of piracy, not that they are pirates and eco-terrorists. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That is strictly your opinion. Terrorism and piracy are both used in a legal sense as well as a more general sense. In fact, if you look at the category pages, they explicitly state that they do not' accuse the groups of criminal activities. For example, Thermcon is in the category, and that's an FBI operation. And your edit summary was a flat out lie--i'm not inserting categories; rather, you are removing them, when there has, as I have said over and over, a strong consensus that they are not POV, and, in fact, are the neutral way to describe the groups. Please self-revert and continue the discussion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

That's rather like a disclaimer on a WANTED poster that says "this fugitive who is wanted for <laundry list of really awful crimes> hasn't been convicted of <laundry list of really awful crimes>" - the strong negative connotation attaches whether or not an extraordinarily-weak disclaimer is stated on a category page that may never be read. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:18, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I have created two new categories: Category:Organizations accused of eco-terrorism and Category:Organizations accused of piracy. These titles are NPOV in that they do not make factual claims about involvement in either eco-terrorism or piracy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:15, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I would note that we have a Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by the United States government, etc. That category is NPOV because it specifically describes the designation and the source of the allegation. Earth Liberation Front and Animal Liberation Front are both in that category, appropriately. Has the US government (or any other government) officially listed/designated the SSCS as a terrorist organization? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I would like to note that the above groups you mentioned are in both the Eco-Terrorism general category and the specific one for the designation. Likewise I support the two categories (one for general discussion and one for designation) for this same article. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 04:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Is this is the same group that used limpit mines to blow up docked ships in the 80s? Is this the same group that threw glass bottles of acid at fishers on decks of boats and then rammed said boats in sub zero waters? That sounds terrifying to me. I'm glad that enough agencies have called them eco-terrorists. So it doesn't matter what I say, but several countries consider them terrorists. Good enough for me. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 23:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

It's not as terrifying as it seems, except for the whales, dolphins and seals. "Acid" evokes a negative reaction but the acid used is Butyric acid, which is commonly found in milk, just as citric acid is found in oranges and lemons. There are far more corrosive acids in your stomach than the stinky butter acid that SSCS uses. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:38, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'll take the expert opinion presented in court and cited in the news over the opinion presented above. If "acid" evokes a strong reaction, they should have chosen a nicer substance. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 02:39, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Phosphoric acid is commonly found in soda pop. That doesn’t mean it’s safe regardless of concentration. SSCS doesn’t use “stinky butter” - they use pure BA obtained from a chemical supplier. — TheHerbalGerbil, 08:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

"... pure BA obtained from a chemical supplier"? That is a somewhat serious claim. Can we have your source for that please? Sea Shepherd say they used rancid butter only, with a safe pKa of 4.82. --Epipelagic (talk) 09:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Is including an article in the Eco-terrorism category equivalent to saying that the subject of that article is an Eco-terrorist? It seems that because SSCS has bombed ships with mines (which fits the description of eco-terrorism) and that because this very discussion exists in the notable news media that this article belongs in that category, whether or not government have called them Eco-Terrorist. It belongs there in the same way as the FBI, it's simply a part of that discussion. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

On second thought it belongs in both categories. Because it is an entity "accused of Eco-terrorism" and it is a major part in the news media discussion on Eco-Terrorism. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:57, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Is it time yet to remove the pro-SS POV?

In the lede... "Sea Shepherd has received support for its tactics against fishing, whaling, and seal hunting from quarters such as media personalities, while their violent tactics are sometimes opposed" Why is the uncited support lead with and the detractive comments (which are cited) are buried under qualifiers and weasel wording? 76.112.8.146 (talk) 23:04, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Aussielegend, why did you remove cited material and claim to be balancing the article to present all sides? Please stop defending SS by removing material. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 01:12, 18 October 2013 (UTC) I added it back. Please don't delete cited material without discussion. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 01:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Aussie, as a consensus, I kept the info you restored, made it it's own sentence and added a cite tag. Fix it if you want to cite it but please don't add weasle words like "sometimes" back into the article lede. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 01:20, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

As I indicated in the edit summary, the wording change was non-NPOV. It removed statements about support SSCS has received leaving only mention of criticism. The statement about the US Court of Appeals was cherry picked from the "Governmental response" section, giving it greater weight, which is also non-NPOV. The purpose of the lead is to summarise the article and as such, it's not necessary to cite everything if it's already cited elsewhere, so removal of content that is mentioned and cited in the "Public relations" section was inappropriate. Use of "sometimes" is appropriate as this is expanded upon elsewehere in the article. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:28, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It's the most important development. They can no longer operate. That's top line stuff man. Also, the way you word it gives prominence to your positive spin. That's not NPOV, that's POV pushing. Do you own this article? 76.112.8.146 (talk) 01:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It's not as significant as you think. Clearly they can still operate, as evidenced by the fact that the most recent action in the Southern Ocean happened after the US Court of Appeals made its decision and the US Court has no jurisdiction over an Australian lead crew. It's not significant enough to include in the lead, which should just be a summary of sections. If you act neutrally and present both points of view as is required, someone who is biased against the first view presented is always going to believe that view is given prominence. It's not, one view has to be presented first. Your wording gave prominence to the negative view by completely eliminating the statement about support - that's not neutral. As for "Do you own this article?", please comment on content, not on the contributor. --AussieLegend (✉) 01:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Point taken, Statement of support should be there and now is. It shouldn't be tied like a counterpunch to the criticism though, so it stands alone and thus does not mask the criticism but allows both to stand neutrally alone as verifiable fact.. The fact that a government other than Japan has made such a strong declaration is huge and relevant. I apologize for talking about you. On that point you are also correct. My criticism of your treatment of this article doesn't belong here. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 02:00, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

You've restored the cherry-picked section from governmental response, which doesn't belong in the lead. It's giving undue weight to one point and, as already indicted, the statement of support doesn't need a citation because it's correctly summarising points from the public relations section. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I totally disagree. I took your one though (people support SS, and sometimes they might not) and divided into two complete thoughts. Both of which may be independently cited or verified. I've even left your favorite one first like you said so that no one could complain about undo weight if I were to switch around the order of the two statements. So you are basically saying that it's undo weight to let the criticism stand on its own without using the qualifier "sometimes" and without hiding behind a statement of support? How is that NPOV? No we remove the inherent POV by separating the sentences and removing the weasel word from the one side. Now they are two independent thoughts, verified or not, cited or not. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 02:36, 18 October 2013 (UTC) Hang on.. let me separate the two issues worded as I see the issue and we talk about them separately.. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Aussielegend. Before there was a single paragraph that showed the positive and negative views in the intro. now the positive is one sentence with an unnecessary citation needed tag (as aussie said its not necessary to cite everything in the lead) while the negatives get two paragraphs with citations. it's not balanced and is obvious POV-pushing, especially when including the USA court of appeals. Aussie's right, it hasn't stopped the sea shepherds from operating so it shouldn't be there. User666777 (talk) 09:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Major Court decision belongs in Lede

A US court made a decision to ban SS from being near the Japanese Fleet which changes everything about how they operate and led to the resignation of Paul Watson. This is the biggest news in SS since Limpet Mines and it deserves a mention in the lede. Disagree? Why? 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Criticism should not be hid in positive statements

"Sea Shepherd has received support for its tactics against fishing, whaling, and seal hunting from quarters such as media personalities, while their violent tactics are sometimes opposed" is a terrible way to say two things. 1. SS enjoys celebrity endorsement. 2. Organizations and governments oppose the violent direct actions. Split the two ideas up. Cite them both well. Don't use weasel words on either like "sometimes" and "apparently". Disagree? Why should we use weasel words? Why should we hide criticism behind a positive statement? 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

In addition to being weasily, it is WP:SYNTH to do so, unless that type of comparison is made in reliable sources. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:02, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a comparison being made. The lead, as it's supposed to, is merely summarising what's stated elsewhere in the article. That it's supported by by media personalities, who have purchased vessels for the organisation or who have had vessels named for them is well documented, as is the claim that other organisations and governments have criticised them. As has been pointed out above, separating the claims into one challenged sentence regarding support and two full paragraphs regarding opposition is not appropriate for the lead and is not maintaining a neutral point of view. In the lead statements should be concise and balanced. A single paragraph stating both views is more than appropriate. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:28, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Within the same paragraph is fine. Misplaced Pages:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_mere_juxtaposition but "Sea Shepherd has received support for its tactics against fishing, whaling, and seal hunting from quarters such as media personalities, while their violent tactics are sometimes opposed" is definitely WP:SYNTH and serves to minimize the opposition portion of the statement. These two concepts should be split.Gaijin42 (talk) 15:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Limpet mines

I remember long ago reading about SS using limpet mines to blow up ships in the '70s. That information has long been removed from this article. I just now put it back in. My wiki skills aren't the best. If you have an interest in making a great article (cough like anyone that may have been editing at the same time as me last few hours), would you please double check my citation and make sure it is in the proper format? I don't know how to do all that. Thanks. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 02:51, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Here are some articles for possible use: http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/7615338/sea-sickness/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/5166346/Paul-Watson-Sea-Shepherd-eco-warrior-fighting-to-stop-whaling-and-seal-hunts.html http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-15/paul-watson-sea-shepherd-profile/4011498 76.112.8.146 (talk) 02:53, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Aussie for helping with that. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

link rot?

Ref number 52, says nothing of Ady Gil or Shatner. What's the fix? 76.112.8.146 (talk) 03:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Governmental Response

The Australian government has issues perhaps its most direct and definitive statement on its stance on Sea Shepherd to date. This statement, if properly included, would be the most relevant in the section. I added it but it was deleted by an apparently ideologically motivated vandal named Epipelagic. Whether said vandal should be allowed to continue to modify this page is questionable. But, the statement from the Australian foreign minister, Julie Bishop, is as follows, and I post it for discussion and review with a view to having it added to the article:

"We do not, and will never, condone reckless, dangerous, unlawful behaviour. And where it occurs on the high seas, we will unreservedly condemn it. The fact that the Sea Shepherd visits Australian ports or some of the Sea Shepherd fleet might be registered in Australia is not indicative in any way of the Australian government’s support for the organisation"

If this is acceptable, someone please post it to the article. I have a feeling if I repost it, it will simply be vandalised again by Epipelagic. Veritas Fans (talk) 03:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Sounds relevant! I'm on a bold roll here. I'll add it. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 04:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

I added it but perhaps you can edit it to make it fit more smoothly into the article. 76.112.8.146 (talk) 04:21, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Australia's View

Australia's condemnation of Sea Shepard behavior has grown stronger recently, the Australia's foreign minister saying to reporters, "We do not, and will never, condone reckless, dangerous, unlawful behaviour. And where it occurs on the high seas, we will unreservedly condemn it. The fact that the Sea Shepherd visits Australian ports or some of the Sea Shepherd fleet might be registered in Australia is not indicative in any way of the Australian government’s support for the organisation"

It does not follow at all from this statement that "Australia's condemnation of Sea Shepard behavior has grown stronger". All the minister said was "We do not, and will never, condone reckless, dangerous, unlawful behaviour. And where it occurs on the high seas, we will unreservedly condemn it.". That statement could equally apply to the Japanese whalers. Accordingly, I have removed the statement. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

It could apply to the whalers, except for the part where the very next sentence specifically identifies sea shepherd. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

There certainly appears to be some politics in the recently added content. The fact that Bishop's statement was made during a speech at the press club of Japan needs to be added to provide context, especially in light of the fact that "The international court is currently considering Australia's case on whaling". Australia needs to avoid rocking the boat at this time. These are both stated in the article. The reaction by Barnaby Joyce is now in the article but conveniently avoids mention of the fact that the refusal by the ATO to grant charity status had nothing to do with any alleged criminal activity. The application was denied because "Taking steps to interrupt or prevent others harming animals in the wild, as Sea Shepherd does, is not the provision of 'short-term direct care to animals'.". --AussieLegend (✉) 15:38, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Im fine with adding the additional context in both of those items. But no text was in those items saying "criminal activity" so that is a non-argument. Some goverment actions are aout possible criminal activity. Some re for other reasons, but all are government actions directly related to Sea Shepard overall. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:50, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The recently added content says "Criminals should not get tax concessions – if you break the law, then donations to your organisation should not be tax deductible". The implication to anybody who doesn't take time to check other sources is that criminal activity had something to do with the refusal to grant charity status. --AussieLegend (✉) 16:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

apologies, I did not read the statement closely before making my previous comment. I am not up to date on australian politics, but from a glance at the Joyce article, it appears that he is a mainstream highly notable australian politician. As such his opinions and criticism are notable and relevant, and in this case reliably sourced. It is well known that in general the "official" reasons for government action are often different than the actual reason, and even had there been NO government action, his opinion would still be notable and relevant. but certainly I would support juxtaposing his statement with something reliably sourced about what the official reason was. (being careful to avoid synth and OR of course) Gaijin42 (talk) 16:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

1. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/18/greg-hunt-and-julie-bishop-at-odds-over-whaling-monitoring

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