Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:42, 28 October 2013

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36Auto-archiving period: 3 months

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Second Amendment to the United States Constitution at the Reference desk. This is not a place for general discussion of the right to bear arms, or for discussion of personal research about the Second Amendment

	Second Amendment to the United States Constitution was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result July 10, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed October 14, 2008 Good article nominee Listed December 17, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Human rights Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Law High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. U.S. Congress High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject U.S. Congress, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United States Congress on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.U.S. CongressWikipedia:WikiProject U.S. CongressTemplate:WikiProject U.S. CongressU.S. Congress High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is about one (or many) Thing(s). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Firearms High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Firearms, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of firearms on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FirearmsWikipedia:WikiProject FirearmsTemplate:WikiProject FirearmsFirearms High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Dispute resolution

As already noted, the discussion above has been submitted to the Dispute Resolution process. Interested editors will want to see that, so here's a link:

• Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Second Amendment to the United States Constitution

— Mudwater 19:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

thanks for the link here. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 02:56, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Notified other active editors who should have been included – hope I didn’t miss anyone. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 23:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. I've placed my 2 cents there, with mention of archived comments that are quite lengthy.Wzrd1 (talk) 00:03, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

resolution

Per administrator TransporterMan:

Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Though I am a regular volunteer here, I am neither "taking" this case nor opening it for general discussion at this point in time, but I do want to ask everyone a question. When there is only one editor who wants to do something and many who do not, the first question we have to ask here at DRN is whether consensus has already been reached. If consensus has already been reached, then a listing here should be closed because there is nothing to talk about and engaging in dispute resolution would be inappropriate. It sometimes happens, however, that despite the disparity in position that the more-numerous side doesn't feel settled about the matter and is not yet willing to declare consensus without further discussion or, and this is slightly different, does feel that there is probably a consensus but wants an evaluation by a neutral party. Could everyone note in their opening statement sections, above, where they feel that this is on the question of consensus? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe we have reached a de facto consensus and should close the dr. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 17:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a great start, why are we not using this?

User GreekParadise gets the credit for this...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement and cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

For more than two centuries, Americans have disagreed on the meaning of the Second Amendment, the impact of its prefatory militia clause, whether it is an individual right to bear arms or a collective right to serve in a militia, and the extent to which the United States or State Governments were prohibited from infringing on this right.

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.”

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.

It's not perfect, but can't we start with this? I feel a bit like a dolt as this is exactly the kind of Lead I was attempting to assemble. My apologies to GP for not seeing this more promptly. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It is extremely biased, and speculative, and also states a host of suppositions that are extremely contrary to documented historical facts. WP is not supposed to be a crystal ball and be speculating on what the "correct" interpretation would have been had the Supreme Court ruled on the 2A long prior to Heller. The Supreme Court ruled in the landmark case Heller for the first time on the individual vs. collective rights meanings of the 2A. We cannot hypothecate on what the Supreme Court might have ruled, had it ruled prior to when it did. We can only report what actually happened, according to cited and verifiable sources. I don't think we should start with an extremely biased and speculative opening to this article. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 19:53, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It is a workable starting point, but in particular I think that the phrase "By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia." contains WP:OR and misrepresentation of Miller. The ruling does not say "collective right" or "right to service in a militia" but in fact says "... some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument" which is open to interpretation. - However I think a weaker version of that statement along the lines of "Lower interpreted Miller to protect a collective right" or some such is probably neutral and sourcable - but we should also bring to bear the many sources that describe miller as ambiguous. We should also mention that SCOTUS twice said (Printz, Heller) that Miller was not an examination of the right, or creation of a general rule etc (obviously top of my head wording here, and not something I think should actually be used) Gaijin42 (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that there are many many many problems in there. It would take an hour to detail and discuss all of them North8000 (talk) 22:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

As I discussed above, strictly speaking a collective right is a right given to a group, in this case the individual states, but that has rarely been argued and was not used in the dissenting opinion in DC v Heller. The CRS article defines it as a right given to each state. Also I think the lead should be shorter, and just capture the key points. TFD (talk) 23:01, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Any condensed Introduction should include SCOTUS decisions, because those decisions provide the official meaning of the amendment. Also, we need to avoid synthesis. For example, the Introduction should not include a claim that the U.S. Courts of Appeals were interpreting the Second Amendment in a certain way pre-Heller. SMP0328. (talk) 23:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I find many problems with the suggestion. Starting with the unexplained prefatory clause is confusing. I don’t think "more than two centuries disagreement" is correct. What is the point of "no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law"? All the cases were about restrictions - not rights. "Federal Courts had virtually summarily concluded… limited to a collective right" – sounds speculative and a misrepresentation of Miller. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 04:47, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, so how about...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement and cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had esablished that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.”

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Two cases were instrumental in establishing this new interpretation. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Hi Scalhotrod – please remember to sign your posts – I thought it was someone else. You seem to have adopted GreekParadise’s arguments which we spent a lot of time disputing most recently at. dr

Regarding your suggested lead changes

• I don’t see the value of adding the prefatory clause.
• I don’t understand why you want to remove the English history.
• “no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law” is misleading. The reverse is more true - No law enforcement agency, law, or court ruling was able to keep a qualified individual from owning a qualified firearm. Qualified individuals make up 75% (95% if you remove the underage) of the population. Qualified firearms make up over95% of guns in the country.

• “Federal Courts had established that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia” also not true and misleading – a synthesis of Miller. None of the cases dealt with Individual or collective rights – they were all about restrictions on rights. For example:

• KONIGSBERG v. STATE BAR, 366 U.S. 36 (1961) – plaintiff refused to answer questions about Communist affiliations
• Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964), civil rights case involving refusal to admit Blacks
• Adams v. Williams (1972) - limited protective search for concealed weapons
• Lewis v. United States (1980) – wrongful conviction does not remove someone from GCA68 list
• Printz v. United States (1997) - congressional action compelling state officers to execute federal law - Act’s interim provisions to be unconstitutional

In summery I think we need a better starting point. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 19:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

another try

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. and It reads (text of 2A) cites a prefatory reason therefor: “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights.

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single any gun control laws on Second Amendment Grounds. In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. ByDuring most of the Twentieth Century, the lower Federal Courts had established ruled using the interpretation that the Second Amendment was limited to a collective right to service in a well regulated militia. In Miller, SCOTUS and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.”

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Two cases were instrumental in establishing this new interpretation. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

• One particular issue I still have with this version is the "From 1791 to 2007" portion. We know that until McDonald the 2A was not incorporated against states. When was the first Federal gun law passed? Was there any before 1934? It seems deceptive to say that between 1791 and 2007 no laws were struck down if no laws even existed to attempt to be struck down until 1934 (or whenever a law was first passed)

Gaijin42 (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

There was the mail order thing in 1927, Miller Act, and another prior to that, but I can't find the reference at the moment. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what GP's stance is, I'm just trying to figure out a neutral lead that summarizes the article. Soooo...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement adding the preface that “a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law, and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone (commonly referred to simply as "Blackstone") as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

This is about as basic as it gets and is similar to the other Amendment articles. Is the English reference OK or "enough"?

From 1791 to 2007, no federal appeals court struck down a single gun control law on Second Amendment Grounds. In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had established that the Second Amendment was limited to service in a "well regulated militia" and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.”

It might be awkwardly worded, but its factually true according to the cited source. Stating the reverse is fine with me, but we need a source for that too.

In the Twenty-First Century, a Federal Court first rejected the collective interpretation and held instead that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.

Two cases were instrumental in establishing this new interpretation. In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home within many longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession listed by the Court as being consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010), the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

These are seemingly OK?

My apologies for not signing previously... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I still have issues. Rational for adding the prefatory clause? We agreed earlier not use the text of 2A. in the lead. The Miller Act obviously didn’t hold as Oswald mail ordered his gun. The 1791-2007 dates must be synthesize from “for the first time” written in 2007, Liptak forgot Emerson – better to say from Miller to the rest of the twentieth century. More correct to say “gun control law restrictions to individual right of 2A”. “Amendment was limited to service in a "well regulated militia" is a synthesis of Miller. I have more but will be away for a few days. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the purpose of adding to the lead “no gun control law was ever overturned” in the lead? It seems POV to me. You have claimed the lead should be a synopsis of the article. I don’t see this information in the article. It might be true but it is so complex to explain it should be in the body: not the lead. “I'm not sure what GP's stance is” your comments here and on his talk page seem to contradict that. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 01:35, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, why are you mentioning "collective rights". TFD (talk) 04:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Combined draft

New version that incorporates comments here (to the extent that the citation will allow) and in keeping with the style/format of the other Amendment article Leads. Please forgive my formatting, the inline citations still need cleanup and proper WP coding...

This page in a nutshell: 1P, what it is and where its from. 2P, why its special, nothing happened for a long time, then it got 'popular'. 3P, 19th & 20th eras some significant stuff happened. 4P, recently more significant stuff happened that fundamentally changed things.

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law, and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

The Second Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights. While in recent years it has been the source of controversy and renewed Supreme court interest, only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention. Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Second Amendment, the last in 1939 (with the Miller case), and no federal statute or administrative regulation had been invalidated on Second Amendment grounds.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone and thus allowed the States to enforce gun regulations via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal Courts had established construed that the Second Amendment was limited to 'militia' service and found the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century, a lower Federal Court determined that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms via the Heller case. In McDonald v. Chicago the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Need to be converted to inline cites

1. Commencement Address at Yale University, Pub. Papers 470, 471 (June 11, 1962).

1a.

2. See Douglas O. Linder, Trends in Constitution-Based Litigation in the Federal Courts, 63 U. MO. AT KAN. CITY L. REV. 41, 69 (1994) (stating that third amendment cases were least litigated). Compare U.S. CONST. amend. II with U.S. CONST. amend. III.

3. Compare U.S. CONST. amend. I with U.S. CONST. amend. II (totaling pages in bound volumes and 1996 Supplementary Pamphlets).

4. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1976); United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939); Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886). Gun control supporters like to call attention to Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65 n.8 (1980) (noting that Second Amendment does not guarantee right to either keep or bear firearms if there is no relationship to militia), while gun control opponents often cite United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 (1990) (suggesting that term "the people" as used in First, Second, and Fourth Amendments may all refer to "persons who are part of a national community"). However, neither of these cases presented a Second Amendment issue, and the court's brief and passing comments about the Second Amendment in both of these cases are clearly dicta.

5. See Miller, 307 U.S. 174.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

We do not know if the right to bear arms existed under common law, Blackstone was referring to the right that the 2A protects or if the 1689 act influenced the 2A. I also think that we should use secondary sources explaining what the amendment means, rather than relying on SCOTUS rulings. TFD (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Then what wording do you suggest, the rest of the WP Amendment articles cite sources and influences for their creation? I was following suit. And I'm always fine with additional sources. We likely have ample to select from already... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I have issue with the "federal courts established" part. Heller (and printz) were very clear and explicit that Heller was not overturning prior precedent. Therefore, Miller certainly did not establish anything. To what degree do lower courts have the ability to establish anything? (Particularly when there were 2 circuits that disagreed). Did (most) lower courts rule under that interpretation? Yes. Did they establish anything? No. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I "hemmed and hawed" over using the word 'established' as well. I'm open to suggestions as well as specificity. As far as that paragraph is concerned, I have some idea of what GP was going for but I think additional detail and references would be helpful. It was the standard back then that if a gun was more "military-like" (versus intentionally concealable), then it was allowed, hence the laundry list of firearms (i.e. gangster weapons) that the 1934 NFA made illegal. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it's good. Good enough. It should be chucked in the lede. There's nothing there that isn't unworkable at this point, and it's way better than the current one. We can continue editing/tweaking from the article now. ∴ Naapple TALK|CON 23:06, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Naapple, but lets try to get it as polished as we can before going live. Tweaking and perpetual edits are part of what set off this drawn out mess. At the very least I want to post a version here that's coded and cited properly. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Now I think we have a good starting point. In light of past disputes over lede changes, I agree we need more tweaks to reach a consensus before releasing. Nice work Scalhotrod. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 17:42, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks Graham, I hope that we can get a few more of the more active editors to comment, but I too am happy with the direction we have taken. Time permitting, I will work on the citation cleanup and the coding. After we load the new Lead, I would very much like to see about returning this article to its previous "Good" status. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

There are several issues with the proposed text. Here is my attempt to address these issues:

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the second part of the United States Bill of Rights and protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law, and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

The Second Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights for historically having elicited very little judicial attention. In recent years, though, it has been the source of controversy and renewed Supreme court interest; only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention. Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Second Amendment, the last in 1939 (with the Miller case).

In the Nineteenth Century, prior to the incorporation of the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal Government alone.

In the Twenty-First Century, a lower Federal Court determined that the Second Amendment confers an individual right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States officially verified this view, holding expressly that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms via the Heller case. In McDonald v. Chicago the Court overruled its earlier decisions issued prior to the incorporation of the Second Amendment, formerly limiting the Second Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal Government alone and expressly found that the Second Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

With the edits made above, the speculation that was present in the original proposed text has been removed, leaving only the verified and unspeculative text. Comments? Miguel Escopeta (talk) 19:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you meant a word other than "verified" above, and it was more than "a" lower federal court, it was 10/12 circuits, but I am not sure how best to describe that accurately (Perhaps just saying 10 circuits ruled that way). Gaijin42 (talk) 20:04, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

In the 3rd paragraph about the 19th century, when (what year?) was the incorporation you are referring to? And why did you remove the other sentences, what was stated was noted only cited, but was the actual court standard for the era. Court cases substantiate this. Its not speculation. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Incorporation of the Bill of Rights -- I'm assuming this. 10stone5 (talk) 23:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

This is quite good so far, however we must include:

1. some mention of the academic research in the late 20th century.
2. Of interest in the 19th century: State supreme court decisions, commentary, the debates over adoption of the 14th amendment, and two SCOTUS decisions
3. That "Heller" is the first in depth look at the 2nd amendment by SCOTUS

I'm glad such progress has been made lets remember to be in the lede all (or most) sources should agree. J8079s (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest well established limitations on what classes of firearm one may possess, in short, a brief blurb and wikilink to the National Firearms Act of 1934. This is to correct any misapprehension that firearms covered under the NFA are unlawful, but that restrictions are in place to insure that the most potentially dangerous of our firearms are possessed by those of known mental, moral and community good status. It should be not too difficult to make such an addition in two sentences or so, with wikilinks to send those interested to the detailed article.

That said, the rest of the proposed prose is good. It gives the general outline and lets references and wikilinks "do the heavy lifting" for those who desire further detail. I'll help if I can, but time is precious of late since my father became ill again.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Just a few vague comments. The first draft had some severe problems which the second draft fixed. Wzrd1's comments are good, but mostly look like stuff for the article rather than the lead. North8000 (talk) 11:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

2nd draft with proper coding

This page in a nutshell: 1P, what it is and where its from. 2P, why its special, nothing happened for a long time, then it got 'popular'. 3P, 19th & 20th eras some significant stuff happened. 4P, recently more significant stuff happened that fundamentally changed things.

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

The Second Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights. While in recent years it has been the source of controversy and renewed judicial interest, only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention. Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Amendment, the last in 1939 (with the Miller case), and no federal statute or administrative regulation had been invalidated on Second Amendment grounds.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century, ten of the twelve Federal circuit court judges ruled that the Second Amendment confers an individual the right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008 the Supreme court officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms, via the Heller case. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that the Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Whacha think? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I generally like this version except I think 2P needs an explanation of why it is unique rather than footnotes. If you mean it is unique because it has received little judicial attention then I suggest combining the first two sentences. If it is unique because it is the only amendment to state a purpose we should say so. I’m not clear on the point you’re making. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 01:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Since the paragraph does not make any reference to the 2A wording, I'm not sure where you get that impression, but I still see your point, it could be worded better. Lemme see what I can do... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:14, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

While in recent years it has been the source of renewed judicial interest and controversy, the Second Amendment is unique among the Bill of Rights; only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention. Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Amendment, the last in 1939 (with the Miller case), and no federal statute or administrative regulation had been invalidated on Second Amendment grounds.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century, ten of the twelve Federal circuit court judges ruled that the Second Amendment confers an individual the right to keep and bear arms, notwithstanding lack of service in a militia. In 2008 the Supreme court officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms, via the Heller case. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that the Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Better? And yes, thats the proper use of a semicolon. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:41, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

The most glaring omission is the lack of any mention of the "standard view" which is reported by all sources wether its called "Liberal Case" "academic inquiry" it's mentioned in all sources. J8079s (talk) 03:28, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

What wording are you suggesting? There has been a fundamental change in the application of this Amendment, the article itself goes into great detail, but why should it be in the Lead?

Better yet, just give me a source that refers to the "collective right" era or cases and I'll figure out how to add a phrase in the third paragraph. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 04:26, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I suggest replacing this sentence While in recent years it has been the source of controversy and renewed judicial interest,with While in recent years it has been the subject of Academic inquiry and judicial interest more to follow but one thing at a time J8079s (talk) 14:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah ha! Elegant, I like it! As I did that last edit, I started to dislike using the word "controversy". Great suggestion, thank you.

Refs 34 & 35 in reading seem to be trying to source "unique" but I think they are actually sourcing the "recent interest" bit. I suggest moving them forward to be clear. Not sure that "unique" is important. No matter what the situation is, one of the amendments by definition would have received the least scrutiny. Certainly the fact that it has recieved not much scrutiny is notable/important, but I don't think we need to say it is unique. The 10/12 circuit statement seems to be exactly backwards? Most circuits ruled against the individual view prior to emerson/parker (am I missing something in the source?) Although I have a personal fetich for the word notwithstanding, and you used it correctly, it is often confusing so I suggest replacing with "in spite of" or something more clear. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:35, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, while I strive for an "encyclopedic style", I do feel that good writing includes an unrestricted vocabulary. "Spite" is vaguely inflammatory (in this context) to me, let me crack open the Thesaurus. "Unique" is not my wording, its a direct quote from the UC Davis Prof Bogus (actual name) research paper. I'm not opposed to changing it for paraphrase sake, but I think his point was that there are two Amendments that has received relatively little attention over their lifespan and then over a very short period of time, one is immensely 'popular' with the public, Academia, and the Judiciary. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 15:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

As for the "10 of 12" phrase, I thought I was incorporating your clarification (specificity, as I refer to it) from the previous section, no? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 15:36, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

No it is the United States courts of appeals that split 3 of 12 endorsing "standard model" (Hutzell 8th, Emerson 5th, and Parker D.C..) one (9th in Silveira) repudiating the standard model calling it the "Traditional view" given the dissent in each it would be enough to say: In the Twenty-First Century the United States courts of appeals split on the question does Second Amendment confer an individual the right to keep and bear arms? J8079s (talk) 17:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, so what's the final score? 9 of 12 were for or against "what"? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

9 of 12 ruled consistently with the collective rights view. 3 ruled towards the individual rights view, which was ultimately endorsed by the supreme court. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Got it, thank you... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 19:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not that simple. I woud much rather drop the counting than find the sources needed to determine the "score" (a detailed break down has a place at Firearms case law}. only "Parker" had any impact on SCOTUS. I cut and pasted my self into conner I would like to leave it at "split" by recasting the sentence. J8079s (talk) 20:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The quote from Blackstone about "natural rights" gives the impression that DC vs. Heller was based on a natural rights interpretation. In fact Scalia, who wrote the majority decision, rejects natural rights theory. TFD (talk) 19:47, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Heller specifically says "codified a pre-existing right" and quotes Cruikshank as well "his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and specifically quotes Blackstone "His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and self-preservation,”" as well as 5 other citations and arguments discussing natural rights. Its conclusion is "As the quotations earlier in this opinion demonstrate, the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right" On what are you basing your statement that he rejected the natural rights argument? Perhaps you are confusing Steven's/Bryer dissent which did attempt to reject that argument? Beyond that, even if Heller is not based on natural rights, Blackstone's commentary could still be relevant to the lede as a (the most?) notable historical commentary. Alito also brought up the Natural rights argument in his opinion in McDonald. Beyond that, we are quoting Blackwell as saying it is an auxiliary right, and the natural right is "self defense". Gaijin42 (talk) 19:57, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

My analysis is born out by several RS as well,

Gaijin42 (talk) 20:05, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Scalia wrote, "In interpreting this text, we are guided by the principle that “he Constitution was written to be understood by the voters; its words and phrases were used in their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical meaning.”" While he quotes Blackstone and others who said that the right to keep and bear arms was based on the "natural right" of self-defense, he does not himself say that natural rights exist. In Scalia and the Lure of the Natural Law, Hadley Arkes, similar to article you provided by Lund, says that Scalia strayed from the positive law view of originalists to a natural rights view. (The article explains itself better than I could and since it is brief I would appreciate you read it before replying.) But I think it would be wrong to categorically state that Scalia had made such a radical change in his thinking. Also, if we quote Blackstone's natural rights view, which is generally favored by liberals, then we need to balance it with the positive law view that is generally supported by conservatives and libertarians. McDonald only uses the term "natural right" once, and it is in quoting an earlier case. While it mentions the "right of self-defense", it does not say whether it is a positive law or natural right. TFD (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

As Yosemite Sam is famous for saying, Now wait just one cotton pickin' minute... I am all for writing with clarity of purpose and meaning, but if we going to start speculating as to how any reader might infer or interpolate how we are wording or structuring the article, then this will devolve back into the mess we've been dealing with ad nauseam.

We will state the facts as clearly and as plainly as we can given our available references that still adhere to the WP:MOS. Everyone OK with this? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:12, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

TFDSo your article is in fact another source saying that he used a natural rights argument? I fail to see how that is evidence that "he rejected it" (His historical stance on natural rights notwithstanding). The vast majority of the opinion is dedicated to natural rights quotes/arguments, he does specifically say "inherent right". In any case, in the face of multiple WP:RS, your assertion of rejection is WP:OR. Cruickshank and Heller both say "codifies pre-existing" directly, and the many RS we have (your newest included) discussing the natural right viewpoint. so the positive law viewpoint (on this issue) is weak-sauce and would need very strong sourcing to be WP:DUE. Blackstone is directly quoted by heller, and even if it was not, it could stand as a placeholder for the historical perspective. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes the decision was based on the evidence that it was a "pre-existing right", not that it was a natural right. TFD (talk) 18:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The natural or inherent right (both according to Blackstone, and Scalaia) is Self Defense, which is what we state in the proposed text. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

my take so far

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

While in recent years it has been the subject of Academic inquiry and judicial interest, only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention. Prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only a few opinions dealing directly with the Amendment, the last in 1939 (with the Miller case),

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme court limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century the United States courts of appeals split on the question: does Second Amendment recognize an individual the right to keep and bear arms absent militia service? with both sides citing Miller. Hutzell 8th, Emerson 5th, and Parker D.C. and the dissent in Silveira endorsing the standard model. In 2008 the Supreme court officially adopted this view, holding expressly that the Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms, via the Heller case. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that the Amendment limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government. These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Still needs work. are we getting anywhere? J8079s (talk) 01:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I think its a good step forward. I like this version of the 2nd paragraph much more. If we are going to name the "standard model" circuits, we should name or at least count the other circuits, and if we are going to use the phrase "standard model" i think it should be quoted and defined as a term of art, as most readers will not know it. 'endorsing the "standard model" or individual rights view' or something like that. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree, many readers would not know what the "standard model" is, especially as there is no article on the legal sense of the term. I'd also suggest that when one cites the Bill of Rights, one use a wikilink to it as well. There has been more than one bill of rights penned in the world and far too US citizens are both not aware of that fact or that our Bill of Rights is the first ten amendments to the US Constitution.Wzrd1 (talk) 11:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Given the turn of recent events (i.e. Heller) using the term "standard" in this context has now become POV. We just can't use it in the Lead. "Collective right" or some other descriptive, yet neutral term or phrase is only acceptable solution for Misplaced Pages or any encyclopedic article. I agree on the Bill of Rights link, good catch. Can we go back to "only three" instead of "only a few" in P2? We've established a specific detail and have a source for it, I'd hate to have even a single phrase be vague in any way. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:12, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I am not stuck on the name, especially not in the sentence its in. However I find it is a common name even in rebuttal. We must use the term somewhere J8079s (talk) 01:23, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Is the "only the 3rd" statement factually true anymore after heller and mcdonald? Are we sourcing that to Miller era sources? I think we should avoid "standard model" all together, it was a POV term from gun-rights (first used by noted conservative Glenn Reynolds in 1995 ), and we would have to define it anyway. Just use straightforward individual right or some such. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

With the preface "prior to Heller", yes, the citation is from 1998. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

sources vary on this point some include Houston v.Moore 1821, Scott v. Sandford 1857, United States v. Cruikshank 1876, Presser v. Illinois 1886, Logan v. United States 1892, Miller v. Texas 1894, Brown v. Walker 1896, Robertson v. Baldwin 1897 others include more we will need to leave at "few". J8079s (talk) 21:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

As written, the"prior to heller" text modifies the "only a few" statement, but does not qualify the "only the 3rd has less" statement. With Heller and Mcdonald, if the 2nd has now overtaken whoever #3 previously was, our statement is wrong. I feel like stating "only the 3rd" is WP:OR particularly as our "judicial attention" statement is not limited to SCOTUS, but includes lower court rulings, and I don't see any WP:RS that has been doing counts there. I suggest gutting the comparison phrase "While in recent years it has been the subject of Academic inquiry and judicial interest, only the Third Amendment (which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes without the owner's consent) has received less judicial attention. P ,prior to the landmark 2008 Heller case, the United States Supreme Court handed down only a few opinions dealing directly with the Amendment, the last in 1939 (with the Miller case),"

Beyond that, the "prior to heller" modifier is confusing, and makes it read like after heller there may have been MANY rulings, when in fact there are only 2. The "only a few" line seems mostly accurate (although certainly we could find something even better) even if applied to all time ever. Perhaps something like "While in recent years it has been the subject of Academic inquiry and judicial interest, SCOTUS has only directly ruled on the 2A X times, with a YY year gap between Miller and Heller" or something to that effect. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's the original text from 1998 I was paraphrasing...

The Second Amendment is unique. No other constitutional provision has lived so small a life in the law while looming so large in the realms of policy, politics, and popular culture. Among the Bill of Rights, only the Third Amendment, which prohibits the quartering of troops in homes, has received less judicial attention. Annotations of all the cases that have dealt with the Second Amendment take up a mere ten pages in the United States Code Annotated, compared, for example, to 1452 pages for First Amendment cases. In the history of the republic, the United States Supreme Court has handed down only three opinions dealing directly with the Second Amendment, the last in 1939, and no federal statute or administrative regulation has ever been invalidated on Second Amendment grounds.

Its from a cited and researched paper by a UC Davis law professor. I don't care what's written as long as its neutral and factually accurate, but its needs to be done with decent grammar usage and accurate sentence structure. Regardless of everyone's personal opinions, an article regarding any Constitutional Amendment deserves no less. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:14, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree entirely on your goal. I am just concerned that commentary done 15 years ago is mainly relevant to the state of things 15 years ago. Lots of court cases have come and gone since then, and many of them dealt with the second amendment. Beyond that, is counting pages in a book a reliable technique to make this analysis? If one hypothetical judge decides to write a 40 page ruling, is that equal to 40 1 page rulings? He also doesn't mention the page counts for other amendments which we could use as a guideline for "how far behind" the 2nd was. I am more than happy to say that the second amendment was not heavily investigated judicially (especially at the SCOTUS level, where we can give a solid count) - but I think we should be doing so in a way that is we can be sure is still accurate. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

back to perspective

Folks, in practice the Lead is (no more than) a four paragraph summary of the article that informs, but does not 'tease' a reader. Again, we're not here to debate the subject and there is absolutely no way that we can expect to fit every single subtle nuance to last decades worth of debate let alone just the SCOTUS attention. Its completely unreasonable to expect this article's Lead to convey any of the "political angst" or "judicial complexity" that is associated with 2A, nor should it. "Understatement" is not a bad thing.

Lets also take into consideration the immense Table of Contents that will follow this lead. Regardless of what we include (or not) in the Lead, its fairly obvious that this article is lengthy and involved to say the least.

If we talk about "courts", how about limiting it just to SCOTUS. Not that lower courts aren't important, but in the Lead they are the most important aspect of the article. I think we have a good chronological historical summary of the 19th and 20th Centuries, obviously the 21st is the tricky one.

As for the Amendment itself, for the Lead, lets just leave out any qualitative statements about it being "unique", "special", "different, or what-have-you. Plus its probably better form to leave the mention of 3A out altogether. Gaijin has a good point.

So I think that leaves us with...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case. This is referred to by constitutional scholars and researchers as the "collective rights" era.{needs citation}

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case whereby a new direct interpretation of the Amendment was adopted. This view held expressly that the Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

I wish there was a Category of "firearm related political groups", a catchall that includes the NRA and the Brady Center. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Good progress. I agree with your general principles and limiting the lede. Two quibbles. I actually find 0 hits in g, gbooks, and gscholar for "collective rights era" referring to gun laws - I think here we should just say the lower courts were split on collective vs individual rights interpretations, with 9/12 taking the collective view. (A circuit split being a main reason why SCOTUS ultimately takes cases). Im also not in love with "new direct interpretation" as the interpretation is not really new. Just say they adopted the individual rights view and not put a spin on it. A bit of the problem is that the paragraphs are divided by century, which makes things complicated, when really the major timeline splits are miller vs heller (and to be more accurate on the circuit splits thing, pre parker/emerson, since there technically wasn't a circuit split prior to those cases). Regarding the categories, I think it would be non-controversial to create a parent category for gun rights advocates and gun control advocates and put them together (although finding a good name might be tough) (As a nice collary, the Abortion issue has the pro-choice movement, and pro-life movement both under "Abortion Debate") Gaijin42 (talk) 16:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Excellent suggestions and commentary! Yeah, I figured I was pushing it a bit with the "new direct" wording, but its what came to mind first. As for division, chronological just seems to make the most sense given the long history, you can only fit "so much" in four paragraphs. Granted Heller is the pivotal judicial moment in recent history, but its just one of many stops on 2A's journey through time. Who knows what will happen in the future; so to some extent this is why P3 is effectively about Heller and its followup. Bummer on the "collective rights" search. Speaking of the abortion issue, I'm sure the folks that the "Rowe v. Wade" article is near and dear to go through the same thing on how to update it and keep it relevant. And you're right about the Category name, that's exactly what stopped me from creating it once I thought it could come in handy. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah hah! I just had an epiphany!!

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case whereby a non-"collective rights" interpretation of the Amendment was adopted. This view held expressly that the Amendment also protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I think we should add "codified a pre-existing right" into the cruikshank line, as that is the first place ruling that, and it also provides a nice segue from the Blackstone quote. So we have put a lot of work into the lede here, but it seems like we are almost right back where we started (See the current lede). We have like 2 extra sentences, but the only substantive change is to rearrange things by century, instead of just listing the cases. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The additional phrase works for me, how would you work it in? As for a comparison of the current to what we have created, I think its substantially different. The listing of the cases is obviously chronological, but we have put significant thought into this synopsis so that's its clearly worded, neutral, and to the best of our ability representative of the history of the article subject. We have to acknowledge that there's no way to fully address every aspect of the overall article to the extent that many editors may want or prefer, but the WP:MOS is what it is and for a reason. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence", but limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case.Gaijin42 (talk) 17:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I liked your first version better...

Recapping...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the amendment "codified a pre-existing right" which "is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence", but limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case whereby a non-"collective rights" interpretation of the Amendment was adopted. This view held expressly that the Amendment also protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:35, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The "codified a pre-existing right" text is actually from heller, so if we use that during the 19th century we have to do it in wiki's voice, not as a quote. Thats why I made my change. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

arbitrary break for ease of editing

OK, so this...?

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case whereby a non-"collective rights" interpretation of the Amendment was adopted. This view held expressly that the Amendment also protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court overruled its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

By the way, this version leaves room for expansion for the "next decision" or significant court case. I've been trying very hard to stick to the 4 paragraph guideline from the WP:MOS. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 04:32, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Why are you using the phrase non-collective? It seems cumbersome? Is it just so you can wikilink collective? Individual right seems much clearer in this context. Perhaps add a sentence after Miller saying similar to what is in the current lede, saying this ruling is considered ambiguous and resulted in a debate between collective (wikilink) and individual rights interpretations etc. Then we can be very straightforward in describing Heller. In the cruikshank, a "but" seems better than "and" to me, since one phrase supports more gun rights protection, but the other weakens that protection, but that could be my own personal reading of the case intruding. What is the "also" in the Heller case? Other than the individual right, what other right is protected? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:37, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

• "non-collective" is my attempt at a smoother transition of pre- to post- Heller eras. OK, not as elegant as the rest, but yes it does allow for linking and further explanation for the reader.
• I agree with individual right, hence the next sentence.
• The extra sentence makes sense to me. What do you suggest for describing Heller?
• Cruikshank, they made a declaration and took an action, hence the "and".
• The also is critical. From the reading I've been doing, both the collective right and the individual right stances are supported. Heller did not invalidate the collective stance it just broadened 2A's interpretation to include the individual right as well.

--Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:30, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

non-collective seems to take a pov that it WAS collective before though. What source(s) are you relying on for the "also"? Gaijin42 (talk) 01:40, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so what do we call the pre-Heller era if not "collective"? I'm not 'for' or 'against' any particular term, I'm just trying to be descriptive. I found 2 for the "also", but I have to dig them up again. One is that huge compendium, "Guns in American Society", but I'll have to located the page.

I don't think we should describe the time period in any way, because there is no single agreed widespread description of that period used (something that would comply with WP:RS/AC for example.) Just give facts of what happened in that period. "Miller ignited a debate between the collective and individual rights interpretations of the Second Amendment. The 12 Lower district courts split in their rulings with 9 taking the collective viewpoint, and 3 using the individual rights model. (next paragraph, Heller)" Gaijin42 (talk) 01:55, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Gaijin42. Just give the facts. Describing the era between Miller and Heller as favoring the collective right viewpoint would run into the ban on synthesis. It's better to simply refer to the disagreement in the legal, academic, and political communities during that period.

Also, McDonald did not overrule any Supreme Court decisions. Only Justice Thomas would have done so. The plurality opinion distinguished those earlier decisions (e.g., Cruikshank) on the ground that those decisions ruled that the Second Amendment was not incorporated via the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, but did not discuss the Due Process Clause. The plurality ruled that those decisions were not precedent for whether the Second Amendment could be incorporated via the Due Process Clause. The plurality opinion is the de facto Opinion of the Court, because it is the opinion that supports the holding and is based on the narrowest grounds (see Marks v. United States). SMP0328. (talk) 02:18, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

The Macdonald wording isn't mine, not sure who edited that, does "clarify" work in this context? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Nicely worded, so....

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case. The Miller ruling started a debate between the collective and individual rights interpretations of the Second Amendment.

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case that held expressly that the Amendment also protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court clarified its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

I didn't include the appellate court ruling split because its a 21stC thing. It would go in P3 if we mention it. I think the Supreme adopting it is probably credible enough with Heller. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:22, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I am good with this version. the interesting thing about the split is that the 9/12 are all 20th century (I think), but the 3/12 are all 21st. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Subject to MOS-based corrections, I'm satisfied with the latest proposed wording. SMP0328. (talk) 04:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Whoo Hoo!!! I have to admit that I'm a little "proximity blind" at this point. Any suggestions for polish or smoothing or should we just push it live and see how the masses take to it? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Potential new version

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case. The Miller ruling started a debate between the collective and individual rights interpretations of the Second Amendment.

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case that held expressly that the Amendment also protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court clarified its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

Somehow I missed the differences between the last two versions. I think you should make this the new lede – any tweaks, if needed, can then be done in the article and discussed in a separate section on Talk. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 18:07, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Nothing substantive since the immediately previous version. I tweaked the coding a bit, I was just posting a clean version for review. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:16, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It misrepresents Miller by taking an old quote out of context and placing it into the framework of later questions that weren't asked or addressed during Miller. Miller was addressing the limits of the "militia" route, not whether or not an individual right was granted. North8000 (talk) 02:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. The quote specifically is put in the context of militia weapons. The later debate is well documented. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Is this something that can be fixed with a reference? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:56, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

No one claims that the bill of rights created rights. You need to explain too whether it was a natural or a pre-existing right. TFD (talk) 02:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the same first paragraph that I did. What distinction are you making that isn't present in the wording? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 02:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I am posting this source to help gain consensus, so far all we have agreement on is that "Heller" and its extensions has the most weight. If we could all take a look at Vile, John R. (2010). A Companion to the United States Constitution and Its Amendments. ABC-CLIO. pp. 137 138. ISBN 9780313380082. Retrieved 19 August 2013. then re-read what we have as if you did know anything about the 2nd amendment I think what we need to do will be easier. J8079s (talk) 03:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Truth be told, the best solution would be to leave Miller out of the lead. It was basically on whether or not the "militia route" established/protected a right to own exotic firearms. North8000 (talk) 14:22, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

@TFD although the nature of the right, is a very interesting and pertinent question, I do not believe there is WP:RS/AC that we could use to firmly answer the question. Blackstone said it was an auxiliary right. Heller made natural rights arguments extensively. Certainly there are sources to the contrary as well. However, while heller made certain arguments, they did not rule on the nature of the right (and why would they?) so I don't think we are going to be able to give a firm answer - certainly not one that we could do correctly in the lede. Beyond that, I am not sure what you mean as to "natural or pre-existing". Are you attempting to argue natural vs common law? @North8000 Miller is a major case, and even though it didn't directly (or unambiguously) decide much, its influence on the next 60+ years was massive (and may continue to have an effect really).Gaijin42 (talk) 14:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

In Heller the Court decided that the right to bear arms already existed in law when the Bill of Rights was written. The way to understand it was to consider what the law allowed people before 1789. If it were a natural right then it would be irrelevant what the federal, state and municipal laws had been. For example, the Supreme Court decided that the right to privacy was a natural right that protected the right to abortion, even though the laws did not recognize such a right in 1789. Although Blackstone was used as a source that the law recognized a right to bear arms, Scalia does not himself say self-defense was a natural right. The judgment merely says, "The Second Amendent protects an individual right to possess a firearm...and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home." How and why that right arose is beyond what the Court decided. TFD (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. But we don't say that it was a natural right. So I am unsure what your objection is. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

@Gaijin42. If we have Miller in the lead, I think that the best thing to put in would be a summary of the Congressional Research Service summary rather than a quote which is completely misleading when removed from context and placed in a different context. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on how it is misleading? WP:RS/AC is wide that Miller allows limiting of weapons not related to militia service. What text do you suggest using CRS as a cite? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

It would take some time to create a good "summary of the summary". So I thought I'd start with floating it as a general idea. North8000 (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Conceptually, I am not opposed, but obviously we would need to have at least an inlking of the text to come to a decision. Can you give the $0.50 version? Gaijin42 (talk) 18:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Going this fast I'm just going from memory and am afraid I'm screwing it up. But briefly I think that they said that the court's ruling only addressed whether the "militia route" right is unlimited with respect to firearm type. And they said "no". And that the ruling did not address whether or not an individual right (un-connceted to any military service) exists / is protected. And so it was and is considered (by all) to be confusing/ giving no guidance on the latter question. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

right. So how does that disagree with what we put in? They can limit weapons unrelated to service in a militia. The ruling is set off a debate about collective vs individual rights. That seems perfectly consistent with what you just said. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:57, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Previous consensus was to call miller ambiguous,. I left a note at Talk:United_States_v._Miller. If any one needs to say more about Miller" that would be the place. While Miller is debated it did not ignite any thing. J8079s (talk) 04:26, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Ignite certainly is poetic language, but you agree that there was a long standing debate between collective and individual interpretations, with miller's ambiguity at the fulcrum of that debate? Gaijin42 (talk) 14:27, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I replaced "ignite" in the most recent version I posted. It seemed better to remove any hyperbole. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

No Debate is not really historical. Best summary from "Vile" above popular understandings and scholarly commentary have tended to diverge (until the standard model) Any debate is between the "gun grabers" and the "bunker guys"I agree with North8000 about Miller. J8079s (talk) 00:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Being bold

OK, I'm pushing this live...

The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is part of the United States Bill of Rights which protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.

In the Nineteenth Century, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited enforcement of the Second Amendment to the Federal government alone via the 1875 Cruikshank case. By the Twentieth Century, the Federal courts had construed that the Government could limit any weapons not having a “reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia” via the 1939 Miller case.

In the Twenty-First Century the Amendment has been the subject of renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest. In 2008 the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision with the Heller case that held expressly that the Amendment also protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms. In the 2010 McDonald v. Chicago case the Court clarified its earlier decisions limiting the Amendment's impact to a restriction on the Federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the Federal government.

These decisions notwithstanding, the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues.

I was on the fence. Did a minor tweak and did not revert. North8000 (talk) 11:34, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, I was not entirely happy with the wording, but only did a minor tweak, fixing grammar, punctuation, and removing the "scare" quote POV push. I don't entirely like the present wording, but I can live with it. Miguel Escopeta (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I to think it "sucks" but its better than it was. J8079s (talk) 18:20, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Ummm.... thanks, I think... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:20, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the minor edits I made to Scalhotrod revision to the Introduction. He had reverted my edit on the ground that I had not sufficiently contributed to the discussion over the revision. I had earlier said that I reserved the right to make minor changes to his wording. Regardless, I have as much right to make minor edits to this article as does any other registered editor. Scalhotrod also claimed that my minor edits would lead to conflict. I don't understand that would be the case, as my edits are all nonsubstantive. SMP0328. (talk) 20:02, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not claiming to be "Hemmingway", but your sentence structure, grammar usage, and overall writing style is lacking in my opinion. Your edits make no sense nor seem to have any particular purpose other than to force your style on the lead. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:57, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not forcing anything on anybody. Are you claiming that your revisions to the Introduction can not be improved upon? Your reverting of my changes appear, IMO, that you feel the need to protect the changes you have made. SMP0328. (talk) 00:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

No, but it can be worsened considerably. I had the patience to discuss the use of individual words when constructing the new lead. Now you're starting the hacking process all over again, the same kinds of seemingly "constructive edits" that got the article delisted from Good status. Where were your edits and suggestions over the month that we were editing? I could just as easily claim that your edits are disruptive at this point given the time and energy that been contributed by a variety of editors. If you want to start this process all over again and come up with something else, please do. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the capitalization fixes I made earlier. I believe these fixes are required by the MOS. As for the wording tweaks I earlier made, and that were reverted by Scalhotrod, I'll trust the judgment of my fellow editors. I believe my desired changes would not cause any dispute or undermine the article. I await the opinions of my fellow editors. SMP0328. (talk) 03:50, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I have not analyzed everything but wanted to mention that SMP0328 has been a long time editor here and I've always seen them to do excellent, careful and expert work. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I supported Scalhotrod’s bold edits as a good step forward. I also support SMP0328‘s additions, as they seem to streamline the prose. I saw no style changes that were detrimental. We must be careful not to claim a personal ownership of our edits. Kudos to both of you! Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 02:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Grahamboat; your bold change is an improvement and SMPs change is a minor improvement on that. In particular, eliminating the need for the phrase "... alone via the 1875 Cruishank case" improves the flow. Also, the paragraph HTML tags were not paired correctly and removing them improves the HTML. Celestra (talk) 03:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

After reviewing and analyzing SMP’s edits, and taking into consideration Scalhotrod’s objections, I find the former improves the article and therefore I reinserted SMP’s edits. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 02:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 10:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you all for your assistance. I'm glad this issue has been resolved. SMP0328. (talk) 15:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, we finally have consensus on something... :) If the majority of the key players are happy, so am I. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 17:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Article style

In my opinion, this article has become an in-depth discussion of the second ammendment, but it has lost is purpose as an encyclopedia article. I am not a lawyer. Instead, I am an economist grad student doing research on arms trafficking between the U.S. and Mexico, and I came to the article in order to look for context in my research. I was looking for an article that summarized what the second ammendment says, and its practical consequences in the present, but instead I found a historical account of its interpretations. In short, I was not able to find the information I was looking for. I do not pretend to say that the information in this article has no place in wikipedia, but it should be in a more detailed article, or at least after some basic sections that summarize basic information on the second ammendment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.171.227 (talk) 18:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry that the information was not more useful to you. The difficulty is that the power of the second amendment is defined by the history. There is no definitive source of what it means, except for the various rulings that courts have made over the centuries. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello 209.120.171.227. I’m not sure why you came to this page for your research. Many editors, myself included, believe this article is too detailed as it is.

I suggest looking at Arms trafficking, ATF gunwalking scandal and "The Way of the Gun" (PDF). Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 16:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I've been told by one book writer and another person who works in academia that they have used Misplaced Pages articles solely for their reference and further reading lists. Apparently, if nothing else, we as WP editors excel at ferreting out sources for information.

@209.120.171.227, as for what you are looking for, it doesn't exist. The court judgements notwithstanding, its all a matter of interpretation depending on an individual's perspective, so its a continuum. To understand what you are seeking, try to come up with a model that states the continuum in its most basic way. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 06:00, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It may not exist, but it should exist, and it should be the beginning of a Misplaced Pages article. Misplaced Pages is not meant for detailed discussion of topics, it simply evolved to include that since the internet provides no limit on the amount of information it includes, but the basic discussion should never be missing. Try to think about what an article on the second ammendment in the Encyclopaedia Britannica included. They somehow managed to discuss any topic briefly so that somebody wanting some basic knowledge could find it quickly. Although Misplaced Pages should not be limited to this kind of reader, it should start any article with simple descriptions of the subject, and this article fails to do so. Try thinking as well of a highschool student reading this article, and you get the idea that the ultimate goal of Misplaced Pages, which is to provide knowledge to everybody, is lost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.120.171.227 (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

As a guide to editors, the main question I was trying to answer was to what extent states are bound in the present by the second amendment. What if citizens in a state voted to ban all guns? What if they voted to ban all guns except small firearms? This may sound like something I should know, but I am not American, so I have no idea. The introduction shows that the interpretation was historically controversial, but it says nothing about the present interpretation. If may be the case that the interpretation is still controversial, but in that case the introduction should clearly say it. It only says that "the debate between the 'gun control' and 'gun rights' movements and related organizations continues", which is a debate about whether guns should be banned, but it is not a debate on the second amendment, which would be a debate on whether guns are actually banned. 209.120.171.227 (talk) 17:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The "topic" of this article isn't a person or a field or technology, it is a 27 word sentence. So, once we spend 27 words covering it, everything else is stuff related to it (history, interpretations, impacts etc.) I think that most of the things that you are seeking to learn involve other areas such as the US legal system in relation to the constitution, and the interaction between the constitution and politics. But in thinking through an answer to your question, I realized that you are right, this article is unclear in a key area. The (not unlimited) right for personal ownership of and main uses of firearms was basically unquestioned (and not dealt with in the courts) until the last few decades, at which time the interpretation of the protections offered by the 2nd Amendment became a topic of importance and debate. The Heller decision decided the biggest questions, but, as in inherent in doing so, left large areas untouched, essentially leaving the untouched areas to the discretion of lawmakers and lower courts. We have an oddity that our amendments only limit what the Federal government can do to you until they are "incorporated" at which time they also limit what lower governments can do to you. The McDonald case did this with the 2nd amendment.

There are folks here who wish that what I just described weren't so and in deference to them / in a spirit of compromise with them, I think that we have obscured it in this article. North8000 (talk) 17:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

There are ample other articles about the socio economic and political ramifications of 2A elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. The purpose of this article is to document and present information about the Amendment itself. This article will (and should) never be what you are seeking. Furthermore, the characterization you have of the final sentence of the lead is exactly the kind of non-neutral point of view that we are going to great lengths to avoid.

Interestingly, I find your characterization of the last sentence of the introduction rather telling. Why do you think the debate between gun control and gun rights groups is about banning guns? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 00:31, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

After a couple of months working in the subject, I can finally see that what I wanted to look for in the article is actually in the third paragraph of the article, although it is written in such a way that an uninformed reador is not able to understand it. I am sure most contributors to this article are lawers that know perfectly well how common law works and the way it makes precedents binding. But many readers don't, especially those who are not lawyers and those who live in countries with different legal systems (like myself). I am aware that most English-speaking nations have common law, but wikipedia in English is read by many readers all over the world, and I guess you should make sure that a universal reader understands that two cases like those mentioned in the third paragraph have huge implications. 209.120.171.227 (talk) 19:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

While I sympathize with your point, and am certainly open to improving the wording to address this issue - an article on the second amendment is not the place to describe how the entire system of American law (or any other country that is based on common law) works. Every page on every law or amendment would need to serve as a primer for the legal system in which it exists, which is not a viable model for an encyclopedia. I will think on wording that could help elucidate this issue without causing more problems than it fixes. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Lead revisited

I have edited the lead to be more neutral and remove a POV fork to another article that is hotly debated in the United States. I have removed the claim of what right the amendment protects and simply added the actual text as it reads.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the consensus-based Introduction. Please reach consensus here for any substantive change to the Introduction before making such change. Adding a quote of the amendment to the Introduction is redundant as the text of the amendment is already in the Text section. SMP0328. (talk) 00:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

It can't be redundant in the lead as the lead is for a summary of the sections and body of the article. I have reverted you as your edit summary is not satisfactory. One does not require to seek consensus for a bold edit and the above discussion seems to be pointed at other discussion. POV forks are against Misplaced Pages Policy and how that slipped by that entire discussion is odd, but I am challenging it now. The sentence is immediately contradicted by the actual lead itself where two conflicting Supreme court cases have placed the question as to whether the claim is accurate. There is no way we can claim that the second amendment is, what it was claiming to be and then leading the reader to an article that expands that point of view. Please discuss as you suggested, but I would request that reverts have more reasoning than against consensus. That means nothing without the proper context and I really don't see consensus for that alone. The rest of the lead as discussed in detail above has not been altered.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23 has reverted again, and asked for this to be "fleshed out on the talk page". So I will request further input from editors involved in the above discussion and the projects for further community input. This may have been brought up and was never fully discussed.

This seems to be something of a continuation of some other discussions. So I will proceed with caution as this is surely a hot button topic.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:55, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict, responding only to previous) Mark, there are so many things messed up with your post and edit that it would take a long post to address them. First, you basis for the claim about SMP's edit summary is the exact reverse.....their made sense, and yours didn't )regarding a "fork"....where is the "fork" article? Second, you seemed to have picked up the the "bold" terminology form BRD but ignored the rest. (Starting with the "R"). Third, the lead is not only consensused, it has followed the definition by the highest authority (SCOTUS) North8000 (talk) 00:57, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for responding North, Yes, I reverted a revert. One I found lacking of any actual reasoning on Misplaced Pages, regardless of your interpretation. The revert simply said "Gain consensus" and I don't have to, nor does anyone to make the edit, but defending the revert does take more than "there is a consensus". Highest authority...what does that even mean. They are a primary source. Analysis or interpretation of their wording is not for us and I see no RS to verify the claim that was made about what right the second amendment protects. Thoughts?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The other stuff aside, I seen the first sentence of the lead to be a 30,000' view of what the 2A does and that such is in very firm ground. But it is just that, starting with the wording, with any big questions of the meaning of the wording having been clarified by SCOTUS. But as with any one sentence, you can't read too much into it / must recognize the ambiguities of any one sentence. For example, per the Scotus clarification it is not an unlimited & uncondtiional right nor is it one that unlimited conditions can be placed upon. Similarly, "right" also needs clarification....for example in this case it is a restriction against governmental restrictions, not an entitlement in the sense that we have to buy people guns etc. I think that the later sentences / content of the article need to be relied on to refine what can't be handled in a single sentence. North8000 (talk) 01:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Supreme Court decisions are not primary sources. The Constitution is the primary source. SMP0328. (talk) 01:30, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

That is ridiculous, and extremely inaccurate. Supreme Court decisions are primary sources and interpretations of their decisions are secondary. The constitution itself is indeed a primary source as well, but the two are separate documents. Can you demonstrate this suggestion?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The current language is appropriate, based on District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago. This is supported by plenty of RS, such as the following secondary sources:

• "Thus, the core Second Amendment right . . . is the individual right to keep and bear arms, specifically handguns, in self-defense." Jeff Golimowski, Note: Pulling The Trigger: Evaluating Criminal Gun Laws In A Post-Heller World49 Am. Crim. L. Rev. 1599, 1616 (2012).
• "In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court finally determined that the Second Amendment confers, at a minimum, an individual right to possess arms within one's home for the purpose of self-defense." Ben Howell, Come and Take It: The Status of Texas Handgun Legislation After District of Columbia v. Heller, 61 Baylor L. Rev. 215, 216 (2009).
• "Two years later, McDonald v. City of Chicago incorporated the individual right to keep and bear arms established in Heller to all fifty states." Laura Mehalko, This Is Gun Country: The International Implications of U.S. Gun Control Policy, 35 B.C. Int'l & Comp. L. Rev. 297, 308 (2012).
• "n which it unambiguously held, for the first time in history, that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms." Clark Neily, District of Columbia v. Heller: The Second Amendment Is Back, Baby, Cato Sup. Ct. Rev., 2007-2008, at 127.

Plus, primary sources are acceptable in this context, see WP:MOSLAW ("Where both primary and secondary sources are available, one should cite both. While primary sources are more "accurate", secondary sources provide more context and are easier on the layperson. Where primary and secondary sources conflict factually, the primary source should be given priority."). Clearly an article about an amendment to the U.S. Constitution falls under MOSLAW. There is no need to change the lede. GregJackP Boomer! 03:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree. And to add suspenders to that belt, the syllabus is prepared by someone else (the reporter of decisions). North8000 (talk) 11:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

A good deal of what I see above may also be countered with RS and I see no attempt to balance the lead or the rticle. In short, this is a political podium making claims that are contentious as if they ae fact and they are not. They are a summary of specific RS to prop up (from my view at least) a claim of what some feel the 2 amendment may be, but is argued otherwise. This article makes claims in Misplaced Pages's voice of authority as if this is set fact. it isn't.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the lead is balanced, and it is a "set fact." The Supreme Court has determined that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. In the U.S., "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137 (1803). Once SCOTUS has said that this is what the Second Amendment says, that's it. Other fringe views on what it means can be address in the main body of the article, so long as they are not given undue weight, but they do not merit inclusion in the lede. GregJackP Boomer! 14:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Excuse the hell out of me. Fringe theory did you say? I haven't said anything about any theories, yet you attack my post questioning the neutrality of this article that has a POV fork that directs the reader to that expressed opinion. Gee...how strong is that claim if you require a fork in the lead? And no...Once SCOTUS has spoken that is certainly not the end. There are certainly many people that debate that. Tell me something...why is your lead so short for a B article? Seriously. it is VERY clear that this article has declined to actually COVER the body of the article and you just admitted that anything that disagrees with your interpretation is fringe and doesn't go in the lead. Funny...I seem to remember the Prop 8 article being forced to show all sides even after the SCOTUS had handed down its decision. This is far from a B article and the lead is not neutral, makes claims as if there is no further debate and actually tells the reader to go to another article to reinforce that POV. Funny, but I do not remember the US Supreme Court going back in time and receiving this clarification. So I would expect an encyclopedia to be honest and state facts and not make claims. The truth is, if you wish to claim this individual right mandate from SCOTUS...you need to spell that out in the lead as you have it as if it has always been and everyone agrees and no problem exists with that interpretation. This isn't that other article. This is the article on the second amendment and you have cut the lead to a simple political agenda of stating only the outcome and not the history in a very convenient way. Very sad state this article is in. Seriously.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You are excused, and nowhere did I attack you or your post. Your reply does indicate a lack of understanding on the legal issues however. In Hollingsworth v. Perry, 133 S.Ct. 2652 (2013), all SCOTUS decided was the standing issue. The Court did not decide if gays had a constitutional right to marry, so the inclusion of various theories of the law is appropriate.

In both of the Second Amendment cases, SCOTUS was very clear that 1) it protected an individual right to keep and bear arms, and 2) it applied to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment. That is the law. Any other view is not relevant to the application of the law, and is fringe. For a good explanation on this, see Judge Posner's opinion in Moore v. Madigan, 702 F.3d 933 (7th Cir. 2012). He clearly accepts that the SCOTUS opinion is the law - even though he just as clearly disagrees with it.

There is a distinct difference in a party not having standing to bring a case and SCOTUS affirmatively stating what rights are guaranteed by part of the Bill of Rights. Seriously. GregJackP Boomer! 12:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Mark, for the sake of clarification in this discussion, what's missing from the Lead? Many editors spent a considerable amount of time to craft as concise of a four paragraph lead as we could. I'm not saying there is not room for improvement, but the article is simply "about" the Amendment and its history (recent and less so) as the editor's note states. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 23:05, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

If you feel everything is over than you need not worry right? Yes, I see some time has gone into the discussion above. Time is of little consequence when the article is never finished and others feel that a B rating requires a summary of the body of the article, not just what a few editor think it is "about". The lead states point information in a manner that assumes no controversy when there is. State what the amendment says FIRST, then go into a brief summary of the article. Even if you make the claim of what the amendment is "said" to protects it needs to state when that interpretation was applied just like other articles.

Look, I have nothing against guns or the right to have them so don't assume I am just some anti gun nut wanting to pour my POV over the article. I understand the way SCOTUS works, I understand the way leads should be written and this is not a B lead.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:20, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, let's use the 15th amendment as a guide/example. It was controversial and then tested in/by Scotus. Where is the kind of stuff that you are asking for in that article / article lead? North8000 (talk) 11:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed court decisions are primary sources and articles should be based on secondary ones. North8000's comment that the meaning of the wording has been clarified by the Court is inaccurate. The Court may decided how a law should be interpreted, but what the law actually means should be determined by reference to secondary sources. It is worth noting that 4 justices dissented from the opinion. Also, the lead is misleading in that it implies the court decided that the right was a "natural right", when Justice Scalia, who is one of the foremost legal theorists in the U.S., rejects the concept of natural rights. The majority opinion of the Court was that it protected a positive right, i.e., whatever right the law allowed in 1789. TFD (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

4 justices dissenting is irrelevant as the majority opinion sets law. However, even within the dissenting opinions there was a unanimous holding that the second amendment protects an individual right. (As is explicitly stated in the dissent). You have asserted repeatedly that Scalia rejected a natural rights interpretation, but have yet to find a single source actually saying so in relation to Heller. Curious as the ruling repeatedly refers to natural rights. The asserted restriction to 1789 is likewise unsourced and WP:OR. You (and others) may certainly disagree as to what the amendment should mean, but what it currently legally does mean is not contested (although the bounds of the protection are certainly ambiguous at this point). /There are numerous secondary sources covering the individual rights ruling, so this should not be an issue. Stop making a WP:POINT. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I provided the sources in previous discussions and also mentioned that nowhere does the Court say that their decision is based on natural rights theory. The division between liberal supporters of natural rights theory and conservative supporters of originalism is central to American jurisprudence. While the Court is entitled to determine how a law should be interpreted, it does not override the policy of neutrality. TFD (talk) 19:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

See this and GregJackP's comment from October 26. Also, the dissenting opinions are noted in the article. SMP0328. (talk) 19:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Beyond that, the natural right mentioned in our lede is self defense, not rtkaba. The "natural right of self defense" is explicitly covered in the opinion. so your argument is a non-starter anyway. Neutrality says we accurately describe the law. There is ZERO controversy about what the law actually is. Some don't like it. Some want to change it. Great. We can talk about that. But it has zero impact on what the law actually is. I fully agree scalia is known for being dismissive of natural rights arguments in the past. You are correct, he does not specifically say "the rtkaba is a natural right". But he does explicitly say it is a fundamental right, and repeatedly and explicitly uses natural rights arguments to bolster his opinion. You may not like that, but you are not in the matrix. There is a spoon. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

1. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
2. Houston v. Moore 1821, Scott v. Sandford 1857, United States v. Cruikshank 1876, Presser v. Illinois 1886, Logan v. United States 1892, Miller v. Texas 1894, Brown v. Walker 1896, Robertson v. Baldwin 1897
3. See Miller, 307 U.S. 174.
4. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
5. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
6. ^ CRS Report for Congress District of Columbia v.Heller: The Supreme Court and the Second Amendment April 11, 2008 Congressional Research Service T.J. Halsted,Legislative Attorney,American Law Division. Order Code RL34446 http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34446_20080411.pdf.
7. ^ Pollock, Earl (2008). The Supreme Court and American Democracy: Case Studies on Judicial Review and Public Policy. Greenwood. p. 423. ISBN 978-0-313-36525-6.
8. ^ Liptak, Adam (June 28, 2010). "Justices Extend Firearm Rights in 5-to-4 Ruling". The New York Times. Retrieved December 17, 2012.
9. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
10. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
11. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
12. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
13. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
14. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
15. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
16. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
17. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
18. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
19. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
20. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
21. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
22. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
23. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
24. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
25. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
26. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
27. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
28. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
29. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
30. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
31. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
32. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
33. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
34. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
35. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
36. Denning, Brannon (1996). "CAN THE SIMPLE CITE BE TRUSTED?: LOWER COURT INTERPRETATIONS OF UNITED STATES V. MILLER AND THE SECOND AMENDMENT". Cumberland Law Review. 26.
37. Vile, Jorn. A companion to the united states constitution and its amendments.
38. Carter, Greg Lee. Guns in American Society.
39. Uviller H. Richard. The Militia and the Right to Arms, Or, How the Second Amendment Fell Silent.
40. Williams, David. . {{cite book}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
41. McClurg, p. 139
42. "Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England". Avalon.law.yale.edu. Retrieved 2013-08-01.
43. See United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875)
44. See United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939)
45. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
46. editor, Gregg Lee Carter,. Guns in American society : an encyclopedia of history, politics, culture, and the law (2nd ed. ed.). Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. Introduction. ISBN 978-0-313-38670-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help); |last= has generic name (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Delisted good articles
• Former good article nominees
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Human rights articles
• Mid-importance Human rights articles
• WikiProject Human rights articles
• B-Class law articles
• High-importance law articles
• WikiProject Law articles
• B-Class United States articles
• High-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of High-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• B-Class U.S. Congress articles
• High-importance U.S. Congress articles
• WikiProject U.S. Congress things
• B-Class Firearms articles
• High-importance Firearms articles
• WikiProject Firearms articles