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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gay article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Edit request on 18 February 2013

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Independent scholar

Bringing Up Baby

I may be rehashing an old topic here, but even though it is referenced to one person's opinion on the internet I question whether the term gay as used in this movie was intended to have homosexual connotations. Firstly, its use is easily explained away by its original meaning as "flamboyant". Secondly, it confuses homosexuality with transvestitism. Thirdly, just because a reference is from a '.edu' site does not necessarily make it a scholarly source.

For some reason there are people who seem to look far back into the past for affirmation of the term's modern usage in a sort of neoclassical spirit. However, I personally don't believe that this can be considered a "confirmed" sighting/citing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.72.120 (talk • contribs)

In essence I agree with you that these attempts to identify the "homosexual" meaning in such instance just tends to confuse the issue. However, this scene is often mentioned in this context and the article as it stands does not say that the word is used to mean homosexual. And, yes, it has been discussed before . Paul B (talk) 13:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Gay article vs. Lesbian article?

There's an extensive article focusing exclusively in lesbians. Why there's not an equivalent article for male homosexuals? This one seems too short and narrow-themed to be the equivalent. Also "gay" is used most of the time to refer exclusively to male homosexuals, not lesbians, but of course, the photo of the article had to be of two women kissing, and not two men...Seems as the Misplaced Pages has double standards or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.22.72.120 (talk) 10:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Your question is an interesting one. Does anyone think we should have a article for Gay man (currently a redirect to Gay)? Feel free to propose a different image. Rivertorch (talk) 17:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's really a question for this article. Of course the word 'gay' is used of lesbians too , even thouigh there is that odd paradox that the stock phrase "gay and lesbian" would imply otherwise. Just looking at the categories Category:Male homosexuality and Category:Gay men, there does not seem to be such an article. But it should be raised on the talk page of homosexuality, since this article is about a word. Paul B (talk) 18:16, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I know that the word "gay" is sometimes used for women, but most of the time is applied only to men (in Spanish, for example, nobody would use "gay" to refer to a woman). The acronym LGTB makes also clear that lesbians are a separate group from gays. It's really strange that there's not a male counterpart for the "Lesbian" article, following the same template (i.e. history, demographics, media). Again, there seems to be an entire article about "Lesbian erotica", but no article about "Gay erotica" (double standards again). As for the photo, I don't think is bad itself. But there shoul be a male example as well. I get the impression that for too many people the image of two men kissing is somehow more repulsive and unacceptable than two women kissing. 95.22.72.120 (talk) 19:17, 8 July 2013‎ (UTC)

There are two things to keep in mind. Lesbian activism has had to address issues of sexism and misogyny in addition to issues addressed by the larger gay rights movement, and so has taken a somewhat different course. Also, the Lesbian identity arose as part of the feminist second wave, which emphasized the idea of women supporting and fighting for other women and so tended towards separatism. While "gay" encompasses male, female and intersex, "Lesbian" is historically, culturally and politically distinct. It makes sense that there would be a separate article for the Lesbian identity, in the same way that there are articles for other distinct sub-sets of the larger gay identity. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 19:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

IP, it seems that this comes down to the fact that there is no term that refers exclusively to male homosexuality, other than terms such as men who have sex with men, perhaps terms used by those of non-Western cultures, slang terms, and pejorative terms. Though emphasis is often given to gay referring to gay men, many people, as we know, use gay to refer to lesbian women as well. Not to mention, the other ways that the term gay is used (often with regard to homosexuality in general, such as same-sex sexual activity without exclusivity of sexual attraction). By contrast, lesbian exclusively refers to same-sex romantic and/or sexual attraction/activity between women (whether they identify as being exclusively romantically and/or sexually attracted to women or not) and even to a political identity (part of what TechBear touched on above). That stated, you are correct that Misplaced Pages can have an article specifically dedicated to the topic of Gay man, since the topic is notable (WP:Notability). You are also correct that people are generally more comfortable with female homosexuality than with male homosexuality. Note that both of these aspects (the gay vs. lesbian and picture aspects) have been addressed at this talk page before: see Talk:Gay/Archive 2#Male homosexuality and Talk:Gay/Archive 2#Edit request on 21 October 2012. The gay vs. lesbian aspect has also probably been addressed one or more other times at this talk page. I'm not sure if you participated in that latter discussion under a different username (registered or IP). I'm also not sure why the archivebot added those discussions to Archive 2; they should be in one of the latter archives.

Also, remember to sign your username at the end of the comments you make on Misplaced Pages talk pages. All you have to do to sign your username is simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. I signed your IP username for your second comment above. Flyer22 (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

However, the article about "Lesbian" doesn't refer exclusively to the modern identity of lesbianism, with its typical subculture and political activity. It's a general article about female homosexuality that covers periods of time and cultures in which neither the label "lesbian" nor the identity existed. Thus I think there should be a counterpart about male homosexuality, without using the word "gay", which would be anachronic when speaking, for example, of Ancient Greece. Even if this article in particular is left for the modern gay identity, encompassing lesbians and transexuals as well, it's just fair that there's a general article covering male homosexuality. I don't know if there's some way to make a public request to write it, though, because the subject is too heavy. I don't think I've got enough knowledge about the theme to write it myself. But I didn't know that this issue had been adressed already. I didn't participate in the previous discussion, but it seems that nobody took care then, since the issue remains the same.95.22.72.120 (talk) 22:30, 8 July 2013‎ (UTC)

Gay would have to be used at some point in an article titled Male homosexuality, however, to cover some modern aspects of the topic. And as you can see, this topic (creating a male homosexuality article) is not actually discussed at "Talk:Gay/Archive 2#Male homosexuality"; it was a suggestion by one editor, and then agreement from a different editor. As for publicly requesting creation of an article, besides doing so here at this talk page, the official place to do that is at Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation. Flyer22 (talk) 22:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Gay community vs. LGBT community section

I'm not sure how appropriate it is to have this little paragraph at the bottom of that section:

"Some still disregard those developments and just use gay, or gay community as synonyms for LGBT community. It causes offence, and possibly harm to those of the minorities whose issues are not male, or of sexual orientation, and may be heterosexual, to be erased in that manner. Proper usage would be when the speaker is referring only to homosexual men."

This isn't sourced and reads like someone editorializing. If this issue is a matter of debate, as the section seems to suggest it is, I don't think its Misplaced Pages's job to choose a correct side and state it as fact. Something like "it causes offence to many who believe that the proper usage would be... etc", but unless there's a source for that I'm still not sure it belongs here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 23:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree and have removed that paragraph. --NeilN 00:39, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

A question

Something that might be worth adding to the article. For background, I'm approaching this from the point of public health (specifically HIV/AIDS epidemiology) where the gay community has been a partner in dealing with an epidemic that has disproportionately affected men in the United States. Specifically, I'm reading a bit about issues of race in men who have sex with men but do not identify as gay - there are discussions about being "on the down low", where this article suggests that gay and the gay community are essentially white constructs where black men may not be welcomed and may not be interested. How much of a white-and-western bias (for lack of a better word) is there in the gay community? Certainly something to consider addressing in the article. 71.231.186.92 (talk) 21:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

There's some relevant content in Racism in the LGBT community that may interest you. Rivertorch (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

It appears to confirm what I'm seeing elsewhere. Should the fact that "Gay" is somewhat race-specific be noted in this article, and perhaps a section added discussing the equivalence (or lack thereof) in other racial and cultural groups? 71.231.186.92 (talk) 05:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

My sense of it is that we haven't identified enough sources to justify suggesting that in the article. It's quite a complex topic, with myriad factors (e.g., age, socioeconomic class, geographic location) playing a role, so it's difficult to make valid generalizations. I'd frankly be afraid of inadvertently introducing subtle synthesis. My two cents, anyway. Rivertorch (talk) 17:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm writing a paper on pareto distribution and HIV and MSM, so unsurprisingly I'm coming across some sources that may be useful for supporting a less than ORiginal addition to the article. Regardless of how I'd love to get distracted, I have to actually write the paper first instead of this article (can't edit it, but I can propose text here and hopefully someone will add/edit/ridicule). 71.231.186.92 (talk) 00:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Please do propose text. I don't think anyone will ridicule it. If they do, I'll give them the evil eye. Rivertorch (talk) 05:46, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Earliest public explicit use of "gay" as "homosexual" that I can find

It predates your cite to the Kinks' "David Watts" and is clear, not (as in "DW") ambiguous:

"How the preacher -- how's Jimmy -- did he go back to school? No kidding! I thought he was gay!" -- from "Whatshername", by Paul Stookey, on "Album 1700", released by Peter Paul & Mary in March 1967. 24.44.252.192 (talk) 16:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)captcrisis

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