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Revision as of 23:27, 9 November 2013

Ghost in the Shell (1995 film) is currently a Film good article nominee. Nominated by ChrisGualtieri (talk) at 15:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC) An editor has placed this article on hold to allow improvements to be made to satisfy the good article criteria. Recommendations have been left on the review page, and editors have seven days to address these issues. Improvements made in this period will influence the reviewer's decision whether or not to list the article as a good article. Note: The article is close to GA, in my opinion. There aren't many issues to deal with. I'll put the review on hold for a week to give interested editors an opportunity to consider and respond. Thanks to all who have worked on this article.

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Archives

Index 1

References to use

Please add to the list references that can be used for the film article.

• Ford, Paul J. (2009). "Hacking the Mind: Existential Enhancement in Ghost in the Shell". In Shapshay, Sandra (ed.). Bioethics at the Movies. Johns Hopkins University Press. pp. 156–169. ISBN 0801890772.

Plot

Would it be possible to make it more easy to understand for an uninvited reader? Could it explain what Section 6 and Section 9 is in more easily understandable terms? And what it means to ghost-hack someone/something?--John S. Peterson (talk) 23:01, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

The plot section needs a lot of work. I'll clean up what I can and see if I can find some citations, but I don't intend to do very much work on it. The2crowrox (talk) 07:11, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

2008 Remake (retouch)

This movie has been remade/retouched, dubbed Ghost In The Shell 2.0 ... I'd add it in myself but the article isnt nicely written so i wouldnt really know where to start it putting it in... source : http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-06-08/ghost-in-the-shell-to-return-to-japanese-theaters --Vylen (talk) 11:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I bought Ghost In The Shell 2.0 on Bluray from Best Buy today. From what I can tell, based on what is already stated in the article about the North American release:

• It's single disc
• It is not by Warner Bros. Home Entertainment but Manga Entertainment and distributed by Anchor Bay Entertainment
• The original, unedited movie is included as a Special Feature and apparently in HD-quality, although it hasn't been cleaned up any.
• Of the English track, it seems as if it has all the new Version 2.0 audio effects (new sound effects, "6.1 DTS-ES Discrete", etc), but the English track is still the same--that is to say they didn't redub it.

I dunno if this helps any but at least the 2.0 section could be updated with this info. - 66.92.0.62 (talk) 08:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I reinstated the lyrics section

A user removed the lyrics section, arguing Misplaced Pages:NOT#LYRICS. However, that particular guideline says: "Most song lyrics published after 1923 are protected by copyright. The lyrics of traditional songs may be in the public domain. However, even in this case the article may not consist solely of the lyrics, but has to primarily contain information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, etc."

It can be safely said that as a traditional song, it is in public domain, the article does not contain only the lyrics, and the lyrics are thorougly explained in the next section. I feel that in this case, the concerns of the particular guideline are not met, and the lyrics can remain. If an editor still feels the use of the lyrics in this case is a violation of NOT#LYRICS, please remove the entire section, not just the lyrics - the explanation of the lyrics is meaningless without the actual lyrics to accompany it. TomorrowTime (talk) 05:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Identification of characters

Please help me identify the two characters that are under Section 9's surveillance. I'm thinking of the scene after the garbage collector scene. The first character looks European; while the other has got long silvery hair and is seen leaving a helicopter. Aboleth (talk) 02:34, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Lyrics

found another translation which is more accurate

does lyrics traditional or by ilaria graziano

Description: Theme

Lyrics: Ilaria Graziano Composition: Yohko Kanno Vocal: Ilaria Graziano

Original / Romaji Lyrics English Translation

A ga maeba, kuwashime yoini keri A ga maeba, teru tsuki toyomu nari

When you are dancing, a beautiful lady becomes drunken. When you are dancing, a shining moon rings.

Yobai ni kami amakudarite, Yoha ake, nuedori naku, Tookamiemitame A god descends for a wedding

And dawn approaches while the night bird sings. God bless you. God bless you. God bless you. God bless you.

Contributed by Blue <blue@hotmail.com> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kasaalan (talk • contribs) 22:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh... I'm not sure how anyone in their right mind could find that "more accurate," this translation makes a lot less sense than the one on the page. Besides, I can tell that you copied this off of Anime Lyrics, Yoko Kanno did not compose this and Ilaria Graziano did not provide the vocals. Everything on Anime Lyrics is user-submitted, so a lot of the stuff on there is inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahald (talk • contribs) 19:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Why are we noting lyrics anyways? They're a copyvio, and even if they weren't, they'd be trivial and undue weight. 「ダイノガイ千？！」 22:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

They might not be copyvio (being a traditional chant), however I agree it could well be undue weight. Din Ycae (talk) 20:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Concerning the conclusion

Just a clarification. Concerning the part "Kusanagi finally agrees to merge, and the Puppet Master releases Batou and the snipers' targeting systems from its control." I watched the English dub in which she simply looks at the sky and then they merge, I did not see any verbal sign of consent from her side to merge, or is her consent just portrayed like that in the movie, that it was actually only after her consent that the Puppet Master merged. In other words, had she not consented, he would not have merged.

I was also wondering what happens after they merge, what does the "offspring" do, and is the offspring in section 9 anymore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gustav Ulsh Iler (talk • contribs) 03:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

As the TV series takes place in 2030, a year later, is the child the Major of that series? Hence is this film a prequel movie or is it in an alternative line / universe to the TV anime taking place in 2030? --Bmoshier (talk) 05:37, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Setting of the movie is Japan not Hong Kong

In the beginning of the movie is stated that the name of the city is NEW PORT CITY (Niihama). Why is in this movie so much Chinese signs, shops and districts?? Because director Oshii and mangaka Shirow were heavily inspired by Hong Kong architecture. Also we must assume that there was third world war, Tokyo was destroyed and lots of war refugees mostly from China were invited into Japan to fill the labor shortage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.197.36.70 (talk) 12:45, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

We can't assume things. Thats WP:OR.Lucia Black (talk) 20:26, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Reviews

i will be adding some reviews that are too long for find the core details of the review here. i added the shorter ones but don'tknow how to handle these longer ones. i'll be adding more as i search.

• twitch film review

For now only one.Lucia Black (talk) 20:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Some Help

In ProductionIG's i found some recognitions but i cant find any third party sources that mention these awards and honorableentions. Ill list them here and hopefully someone can help me with these.

• The World Animation Celebration 1997 - Best theatrical feature film

• Billboard Top Video Sales Chart - #1

• 1st Animation Kobe1996 - Best theatrical feature film

If anyone can find sources for these, it would be great.Lucia Black (talk) 04:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Copyediting

I've just done some copyediting, but the experts will want to check that I didn't accidentally make matters worse, and some parts may require an additional look. In particular:

• In the "Animation" section I changed "thermoptic camouflage into "thermo-optical camouflage", following the world of Ghost in the Shell article. I hope that's the correct spelling. Should it link to the relevant "world" section?
• In the same section, these lines sound strange:

Tanaka converted code in a computer language displayed in romanized Japanese letters to numbers before inserting them into the computer to generate the credits. The origin of this code is the names of the film's staff as written in a computer language.

What exactly happened there? Computer code is displayed in romaji (as opposed to what, kanji? Wouldn't computer code usually employ the Latin alphabet, even in Japan?), Tanaka converts it into numbers (how?), feeds the numbers to a computer and then turns the result into the opening credits (again, how?)? And what does it mean to write the staff's names "in a computer language"? That should be clarified.

This is actually really complicated and the specifics are vague in the video... So I will copy the quote. The question asked is "What significance do the numbers have in the opening credit sequence?"

His response is, "First, I converted Romanized Japanese letters into numbers, than I converted it again into a computer medium. If you were to look at each frame, say step by step framing on a laser disc, you would see that it is probably correct by comparing it to the code in a computer programming dictionary. That is, of course, for those who have a lot of spare time." The narrator adds, "So we see that the numbers in the beginning credits are actually the names of staff members written in computer language."

Context is key here... but the exact method (language) is unknown, but the names of staff in romaji were converted to numbers, then those numbers were rendered as computer code. It would be OR to say that the chain "logically" is Kanji -> Romaji (not really a conversion - depends on Hepburn or other adaptation) -> Numbers -> Entered into computer medium? Converted? It is not binary for one. Anything more is OR - but the whole bit is awkward. I've never gotten a better answer on the process. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:24, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

• The reception section has a long list of X praised Y stating, "Z." We should add a little more variation. Also, is that comma correct?

The rest was mostly minor grammar and spelling corrections. Huon (talk) 04:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the copy edit! I gave the full info for above if you want to try and fix that. I got no ideas myself. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Critical source

This book chapter would be a pretty good source to expand the Critical analysis section. The Call of Cthulhu (talk) 15:26, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ghost in the Shell (film)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jburlinson (talk · contribs) 21:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll be glad to review this article--it sounds like a very interesting film! I'm sorry you've had to wait so long for a response to your nomination. Comments to follow in the next 1-7 days. I'm no expert in anime or manga, so bear with me if I ask some elementary questions as to content. Thanks in advance for all your work! Jburlinson (talk) 21:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, no problem. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I've already made a few minor wording and/or punctuation changes in the article. If you have any problems with them, please feel free to revert or let me know if you have questions.

Initial reactions.

Lead:

• Note 1 might be a little confusing to readers unfamiliar with the personal history of Lana Wachowski. Could I suggest simply making the reference to "The Wachowskis" with the wikilink. Then, if the reader makes the link, he/she can learn all about the situation. This would obviate the need for a note.

Agreed. It what it once was done by Ryulong. And I agreed with it. I've changed the note to reflect the citation of "The Wachowskis" and highlighted it is also an editorial decision but did not allude to the personal reasons why. It may have to be dealt with for the FA level, but by all means, this not something I'll quibble over. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Plot:

• "Kusanagi espies the conversation" -- it's not clear what "the conversation" refers to. Does it refer to the explanation from Section 6 described in the preceding sentence?

Precisely. Is that an issue? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, not really. It's just an unusual construction to say that someone "espies a conversation". "Espies" implies that a person takes some sort of covert action -- but this may very well be what happens in the film. I just wanted to be sure that the "conversation" was referring to the "explanation". No biggie.Jburlinson (talk) 22:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• There's a link to "the Ministry of Foreign Affairs" which leads to the contemporary Japanese cabinet level ministry. Is this the same entity depicted in the story of the film? I ask because it's not clear whether the setting of the story is in Japan or some future Asian country that may or may not be Japan.

I broke the link to the real life ministry, but it is set in Hong Kong according to the director. I decided to place that at the top of the plot to clarify that point. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. Jburlinson (talk) 22:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Production: Director:

• This contains the first reference to the Production Report (DVD), which is the most often cited RS for the article. You've done a great job of distilling the information from that information-packed video. My question deals with the attribution for the "report". The version on YouTube does not identify Production I.G. as the creator, but identifies the copyright holders as Shirow Masamune/Kodansha/Bandai Visual/Manga Entertainment, Inc. (1966). Would that be the correct attribution for the citation?

Well, it is an American production, but Shirow Masamune retains rights as the original creator of the work in Japan, Kodansha is the publisher of the manga, but Bandai Visual is the production company and it is probably impossible to be certain, but Manga Entertainment might be responsible for the actual taping. Thought it most is not certainly "1966". I changed it to 1996 to reflect the Region 4 tape on Youtube. Extras in movies are certainly very difficult to pin down and I don't have the UK version that shipped with this in 2009; and it was horribly out of date with terminology and pretty much a joke as a result of its once cutting edge technology being inferior by today's standards. Though as a reliable source about the production of the work - it is definitely among the best. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Design:

• Page numbers for the two references to The Analysis of Ghost in the Shell would be appropriate.

I actually screwed up here and used Liquid Metal: The Science Fiction Film Reader which took and translated the passage from the book. I have corrected it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Lighting was different from traditional use, where contrasting details are used, for Ghost in the Shell rather than just contrast darkness actually was integrated into an area in which nothing could be seen and light areas remain bright and visible." -- Sentence is confusing. Could it be re-worded?

Did you think it was any clearer in the production report? HA! Sorry, but yes... I'll tinker with it. I've cleaned it up, only because I understand what they did. Rather than control contrast (scene light and dark, like on your monitor) the light and darkness were incorporated into the cels to ensure that areas would range from bright to dark regardless of the contrast and that it would behave as real sources of light and darkness do. It mimics real lighting conditions only by being representations of real lighting conditions - whereas most works were made lighter or darker by controlling a single contrast and not dealing with individual light and shadow sources. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• " The process uses a single illustration and manipulates the image as necessary to produce distortions for effect in combination with a background without altering the original illustration." -- This is confusing. If the image is manipulated and/or distorted, isn't the original illustration altered?

It is really hard to describe - since you saw it on Youtube, you remember that weird thermal camo scene with the zoom and distortion? That's it. I can take a crack at this one, but it is really bizarre. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Sound:

• "The lyrics of the song itself seem to reflect the union..." -- this sounds like it might be OR. Please supply a reference. Is it mentioned in the "Production report"?

This is one book I could not get my hands on from my library. But the citation is within this source. Though I did cite what I read and confirmed, I also got the link to the GameSetWatch English version of the one for Kawai's music, supported by another source, but I dropped the Ranma 1/2 thing. That's simply comparing two names, but was never explicitly given and hence likely OR, but its been floating around for years.... better off gone till I can personally dig up something. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Ghost in the Shell 2.0:

• The second sentence begins: "For the film's Version 2.0 release..." -- the term "the film" is a little ambiguous. I assume it refers to Ghost in the Shell, not The Sky Crawlers, is that right?

Correct. Clarified the prose to remove doubt. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Critical analysis:

• I think the inclusion of this section is a good decision, as it details themes identified in the critical literature. It would be good to identify the critics a little more clearly, though, as the average reader will likely not recognize the names. Something like "Professor of Asian Studies Sharalyn Orbaugh" or "critic Austin Corbett" -- would that work?

Easily able to be done. I'll get to this in a bit if you don't mind. I personally love reading Orbaugh and Napier's analysis.

• I've seen some other critical commentary along the same lines and may add a little bit to this section. Would that be OK?

By all means. I got plenty more myself, but I didn't want to blow it away before I needed to and since I got FA plans, I wanted to present the most authoritative sources I could for analysis. I don't mean to hold back, but some of it is contradictory and outright wrong based upon my own knowledge of the subject. This has happened for several interviews; putting the asserted speculation and the theories crafted on it to rest.. thankfully though. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• Note 2 reads: "The English dubbed version from Manga Video changes the line to "Yeah, I must have a wire loose!". Orbaugh described this change as "sanitized"." -- it's not clear what line is being referred to. I believe there's a line early in the film where a character refers to "that time of the month". Is that the line in question?

Jburlinson (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Could use a bit more context for the note. I meant it to be read in-line, but I can fix that or you can if you want. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

OK. I'll give it a shot. Jburlinson (talk) 22:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Reception:

• "Ghost in the Shell received overwhelmingly positive reviews..." -- "overwhelmingly" might be a case of WP:EDITORIALIZING -- I suggest omitting it.

Okay. Swapped the order so it goes "good" "mixed" "general" to follow the flow. Can add more if needed. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

That's all I've got at the moment. Let me know if you have any questions. You've done a very good job here. Jburlinson (talk) 03:40, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm glad you liked it and thanks for your time. Just the few points above which I want a bit of discussion on for making it better. I want to make sure that we agree about the direction of things before you pass it; I rarely get detailed feedback and I greatly appreciate it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No problem. I enjoyed it. I'll check a couple more things and then pass the article. Jburlinson (talk) 22:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Outside comments

Hey Chris G. et al., I gave this a more detailed read this afternoon and wanted to add a few suggestions of my own to this review. I realize this article's been a bit contentious, but hopefully my changes will be helpful instead of causing more trouble. (If it's the latter, I apologize in advance!) I did some prose tweaking, mostly for style and brevity, but I also saw a few issues I couldn't immediately resolve and wanted to mention below. Obviously, everyone involved should feel free to revert anything I've done here.

• "Her team, Batou and Ishikawa, triangulate their activity with a garbageman." -- I'm a little confused by this phrase. Who is the "their" here? Is the idea that the garbageman helps them triangulate? Or do they triangulate a signal to his location?

They are hunting him. Unless I am mistaken on the concept, its both. Because the garbageman is sending the signal and the team is trying to identify the source because the garbageman is on the move. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Motoko's demeanor lacks the comedic facial expressions and rebellious nature depicted in the manga. -- this borders on an interpretative statement--a citation here would be helpful if possible. On the other hand, if this isn't mentioned in a source, it's probably a bit off-topic/original research to mention it here.

It is a bit interpretative, but it is based on the RS, which I forgot the exact source of the commentary. The original explained the differences between the media and the SAC and the film and showed that Shirow's comic review was stripped by Oshii. There is no "ape face" or immature "screw you" gestures from Motoko - her rebellious nature was heavily reduced for the film. Remove it if you are worried. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• "which mixed traditional animation with the emerging use of computer graphics, including digital cel work with visual displays" -- seems like this might be a misplaced modifier -- does the "which" here refer to DGA or "the future of animation"? If the former, it seems a little confusing to define DGA two sentences in a row.

It wasn't a misplaced modifier, but it is sorta weird wording now that you point it out. " In 1995, DGA was thought to be the future of animation by integrating traditional animation with computer graphics, digital cel work and visual displays." The contrasting point here is that in 1995 it was top of the line, but in reality the traditional methods are dead and entirely superseded by digital cel work. The source speaks of DGA as the future, but it was only a stepping stone. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• " for superior sound throughout the film" -- I'm not quite comfortable with this phrase being in Misplaced Pages's voice--it's a bit of a value judgement, and it seems to be sourced to the production crew themselves. One possibility would be to simply cut it; "Ghost in the Shell's recording was done with a high-end studio" would already communicate the main idea. Another possibility would be to more clearly attribute it in-text.

Then let's do so - the sound is exceptional by all definitions, but I have not expanded on "why" as of yet. Even still, "superior" is unnecessary. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• "song's lyric" -- usually lyrics would be plural--but if the song only has one line, "lyric" might be appropriate.

 Done Fixed already. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• How does The Sky Crawlers relate to Ghost in the Shell? (i.e., why is one being re-released to celebrate the other?)

Its Oshii. Honestly, I have little idea of why it is billed as a celebration, but that's the official stance and Oshii wanted to "bridge the differences between then and now" essentially. "立ち見となった熱気溢れる会場に登壇した押井監督は「この作品は過去を振り返るだけでなく、現在とのブリッジになっている作品。" ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Using the tracklisting template to list the individual names of pieces in the soundtrack may be excessive detail. MOS:FILM's recommendation on this: "Track listings for film scores are generally discouraged since the score is usually composed by one person and the score's tracks are generic descriptions of scenes from the film. Noteworthy tracks from the film score can be identified and discussed in prose." It's probably not enough to cause the article to fail criterion 3b, but I think the best things would be to remove it.

Perhaps. The only one of major note is the choral song. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done Was a good idea. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• On a related note, I'm not sure the image File:Ghost in the Shell Soundtrack.jpg meets the fair use criteria, which requires "2. The image is used as the primary means of visual identification of the article topic." Since the article's about the film, rather than the soundtrack, I'm not sure this qualifies as being the article topic's primary image. I'd suggest removing it, but if you think it's important or that I'm simply wrong about this, I'm happy to get a more expert opinion.

In that case, let's remove it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to everybody working on this one! I watched this a few times in high school, though it's been a looong time since then; all I can really remember, sadly, is the protagonist fighting the tank. -- Khazar2 (talk) 19:21, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, I added a brief table to show the cast members a little bit ago, I realized that somehow it was missing. I might pull some additional details off the English VHS later on though. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick responses and all your work here! Good luck with this one. -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:55, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Checklist

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Spotchecks show no evidence of copyright issues.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Image tags ok
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Pass as GA

• Thank you. The article is stronger thanks to everyone who helped point out and fix the issues - making this one step closer to FA. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:51, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Major changes Oct 30

I'm in the process of reviewing this article for GA. I notice that there were many changes on Oct. 30, resulting in a considerably different product than the one I viewed when the review began. One of the big changes is the removal of a section on "critical analysis." I'm not complaining, mind you. But I am concerned that the changes may or may not result in the nominator wanting to re-consider the nomination for a GA. Are we still on track with that nomination? If so, I intend to review the article based on the Oct. 31 version, not the version that I first saw when the GA review began. Is this OK with all who may be concerned? Thanks to all who have been working on this article. It gets a lot of views, so it's important that we get it right. Jburlinson (talk) 20:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Niemti's removal is a problem. I'll drop a message on his talk page. The critical analysis of the work is important and is published in a reliable source. I have restored it. Saying the person's opinion is not important as a reason to remove it is to remove a key figure in academia on the level of Susan J. Napier. His ignorance should not negatively impact the review, he did not realize that Sharalyn Orbaugh's work mattered. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

OK. I'll proceed with the review of the article as it is now that the critical analysis section has been restored. This will include all the other edits up to and including those of Oct. 30. Will that be OK? Thanks. Jburlinson (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Niemti did a good copy edit. I'm gonna drop another note thanking him for that. He's really good at cleaning up my bland prose. By all means, review the current version. I had asked him to take a look at another article, but he unexpectedly helped me out here. We don't edit war with each other - we may agree to disagree, but I pointed out Orbaugh's academic credentials as Professor and Graduate Advisor, Asian Studies of the University of British Columbia. Her extensive work in anime and manga topics are the reason I used her published work - because they've been in four or five books I've read and numerous essays and they have been well received. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

On another note, the production can be cut down a bit. A lot of how its written is at interview by interview base. since interviews are first-party information, i don't necessarily think we need to exploit them as interviews, just say that he said it. or even summarize the quotes too because some of them just are a little too long and don't clarify each point he makes. Unless its imperative that this information has to highlight them as quotes, It can definitely be expanded/summarized.Lucia Black (talk) 01:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I found that a full quote from Oshii to be preferential to rehashing it. A director should be given a few words to describe his personal desire and philosophy which he brought to the creative process. Besides, removing the quote would only lead to a more disjointed and poorly thought out paraphrasing of what was said. Also, this type of information brings clarity and understanding - do not try to go chopping into it. Oshii gets one paragraph. That's completely reasonable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Lets think like editors, not like fans. Stating comments like A director should be given a few words to describe his personal desire and philosophy which he brought to the creative process. and . Oshii gets one paragraph. is mentality of a fan, not a impartial editor. It would be best to paraphrase each statement to give equal weight to the them and clear understanding of what exactly he is saying. the way its set up is like as if Misplaced Pages is the interviewer, and Oshii is the one being interviewed. it should be summarized or paraphrased to more direct-to-the-point. If you want, even the quotes can be put into the refs.Lucia Black (talk) 17:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Quotes are acceptable and if you are just going to constantly be rude, I'll request the interaction ban again. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:54, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they are acceptable, but not always the best choice when conveying the meaning. And it wont hurt to paraphrase it, or summarize the details. especially if there are multiple interviews being cited as well. And interaction ban threatening wont work here. It's more leaning toward the fan ideology if we're not basing our ideas on whether it would benefit Misplaced Pages, but to play tribute or honor a specific author/director. At the moment, it's not exactly clear. and you're not giving much of a defense other than that their acceptable in general.Lucia Black (talk) 18:02, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't read anything I write, do you? I cannot help you with your problems, but don't make a flimsy pretext to create ones for me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

What problem are you referring to? I'm not making any flimsy pretext to create one. I'm bringing up a real issue on the article. we shouldn't keep a quote out of "personal" preference, right now we can make convey the message clearer. Finding "quotes" is also subjective matter, one can divide them up to 3 different quotes if one wanted to.Lucia Black (talk) 18:24, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Read my post again. If you still continue to be negative and call me a like a "fan" or "personal preference" by dodging my stated reason, I will simply stop talking to you. I don't have time to deal with your battleground behavior. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

For the sake of civility, why don't you just "clarify" rather than continue to point me to your comment and saying i haven't read it. because i did, and i addressed it well. We can't have reasoning based on what you brought to keep such quotes. And quotes can be used regularly, but we still need to use them in a manor that informs the reader. If there's an easier way to clarify we should find a way. A good example are reception sections that do both paraphrasing and quoting.Lucia Black (talk) 19:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• "I found that a full quote from Oshii to be preferential to rehashing it... removing the quote would only lead to a more disjointed and poorly thought out paraphrasing of what was said." ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:05, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

"rehashing" is subjective. its just dividing and clarifying each point he made and giving it proper focus rather than to use a full quote all mashed together on several distinct points. Also note that other interviews are noted, but not fully quoted, just paraphrased. Again, reviews in a reception comes to mind when it comes to both paraphrasing and quoting. but i dont believe the particular quote is all that useful or perhaps its the way its presented. Usually quotes are good, but the prose should also do some effort to clarify the quote before presenting it..Lucia Black (talk) 19:11, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

You got nothing huh? Okay. Bye. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Since you dont want to discuss this further, i will find a way to clarify it myself, and it will be a bold edit, and once you revert it, per BRD rule, you will have to continue to discuss it until gaining consensus, and that ultimately will cause problems with GA status per stability issues. So rather than dismissing everything i'm saying in a disrespectful manner, you should discuss this now and save the trouble of making another GA status once it is stable.Lucia Black (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Is this an edit war over whether or not we need to point out that Oshii's reply contains multiple reasons before we quote it in full? Even assuming it does, I don't see why that needs to be highlighted. Furthermore I doubt the source explicitly says those are multiple reasons, which per WP:BURDEN would mean we shouldn't say so if that's disputed. Finally, maybe it's just me, but this sounds like an attempt to hold GA status hostage over a triviality. I don't think that's appropriate. Huon (talk) 20:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, its about that. Oshii doesn't even give "multiple reasons", it is singular. The second sentence is probably unnecessary, but the third and fourth are more important." I stated above that it would lose its impact and become disjointed if it was paraphrased. And, yes, I'm concerned that she announced she would do this to disrupt the GAN and then continued reverting the "bold revert" to force discussion... which she wants to do to disrupt the GAN. I've been addressing the concerns and doing all that I can to ensure its accuracy, integrity and completeness. The idea to cut the production section is just more A&M drama which I do not want to venture into at Sven's RFC. She broke her topic and interaction ban to call me a "GAN nom ninja" last time over the GITS matter. It just seems she's intent on ensuring its failure as revenge for my failure of the manga/franchise article which touched off this whole affair. But that's just my opinion. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I do not understand the question you gave. But we have to clarify in order to provide needed context. If we go by "When asked about 'X' author/director stated, 'Y'" it doesn't fully inform the reader properly. Which is why i believe some paraphrasing is needed to further clarify the quote and this is done the majority of the time for reviews. Also note that saying they are multiple reasons and Oshii providing answers is basically the same thing. If you can argue that meaning is construed, then please do so.

But over all, i'm simply saying that we need to discuss things properly. one editor dismissing a needed discussion in order to get it to GA, is a serious issue. And i'm informing Chris that if he doesn't discuss, he's allowing the edits to occur. So in turn, he's promoting edit wars by not wanting to discuss what is needed. Misplaced Pages doesn't favor one editor over the other, so in turn, just because Chris doesn't want to discuss it, doesn't mean progress should be at a halt. And which is why i informed him will hurt the GA nomination due to stability issues if he does not wish to end the discussion needed.

SO please don't assume any bad faith such as "taking the GA status hostage". i'm saying that we should discuss it. And even then i compromised by providing context without removing the quote so that paraphrasing wont be needed.Lucia Black (talk) 21:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: He's giving at least "two" reasons which in turn means "multiple". Also note that the "quote" is subjective in the sense of being one individual quote or multiple. Which is why i'm saying its considered one reason, because the information was decisely taken as one. So if multiple points are for one reason, they can still be referred to as "multiple reasons". It's not an issue of Original Research or construing the facts. but if you're stating that second sentence is unneeded, but the third and forth are, then paraphrasing would be needed anyways. This is what i'm trying to discuss.Lucia Black (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

let me just put up the quote here, and prove to you that there is multiple points/reasons in here. My intuition told me that this story about a futuristic world carried an immediate message for our present world. I am also interested in computers through my own personal experience with them. I had the same feeling about Patlabor and I thought it would be interesting to make a film that took place in the near future. There are only a few movies, even out of Hollywood, which clearly portray the influence and power of computers. I thought this theme would be more effectively conveyed through animation."

So with that giving a different point, we can say the disjointing of the quote, we can safely divide it into two pieces. But even if you claim. @Huon: overall, whether stating its one reason with multiple points, or multiple reasons, it doesn't construed the original thought of the quote.Lucia Black (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This edit does nothing but state that Oshii's reply contains multiple reasons. Does the source say so? I'm all for context - provided that context is supported by reliable sources, not by our own interpretation. Furthermore, I don't see what context that edit provides. Why does "the following quote contains multiple reasons" provide any information beyond the quote itself, or any context to it? Do we assume our readers cannot determine the number of reasons themselves? Huon (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Lucia does not realize he is giving only one reason. She is misinterpreting a source and detracting his authority on his own work by making a baseless self-assertion that there are "multiple" statements. She did this before, edit warring by bringing two completely different characters together and claiming to know more than the production crew in the process. And when I decided to not bother with it anymore, she says I called her a troll and made an essay to attack me for "ad hominem tactics to avoid talking about the main issue at hand." Simply put, Lucia has a lack of WP:CLUE. If the developers, the content and the sources all say you are wrong; don't edit war your own OR - or in this case; don't make up things not in a source you can't bother to check. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok let me clarify the current/previous rendition goes, "when asked about subject X (it does not present X in the prose, it only states X is in question) author provides answer Y (in quote form, not often time doesn't get to the point or reason that they expected. And sometimes large quotes such as that, may cause issues to fully understand, and may even lose the meaning of the question that was previously stated) so in general it sounds like an interview is taking place in Misplaced Pages, rather than citing the interview itself. And its redundant to even cite the source in prose if its used as reference (unless the given time and place is relevant to the subject). And does the source "need" to say such? if it doesn't "construe" the general meaning. And even if we don't use "multiple reasons" we can still paraphrase/clarify in other ways that doesn't have to say that there are "multiple" reasons. But the reason why i "phrased" it as such because there's no middle ground between "reason" and "reasons" and there was no word i can think of that didn't give the context needed. it was difficult to put it as "Mamoru Oshhi gave an answer why he chose Ghost in the Shell in an interview" I'm not defending that reason would be the best choice (definitely not as bad you make it out to be to be unusable, that's for sure), but i'm still defending that paraphrasing or re-clarifying rather than simply stating the questions and what answers he provided. One is more informative.

It's going too far to consider it deviation from the source. Because this isn't something new to Misplaced Pages. a lot of editors do the same thing such as use "author A reasoned" or "Director B clarified" or "Writer C debated" using such words doesn't harm the meaning in the first place, and it is not subject to a reliable source, its subject to the quote used in the source..So no matter what wording (even if appropriate and keeping the original meaning of the quote) it would still seem off because the wording wasn't provided in the RS. to me, its a bit extreme to even consider OR if it doesn't even construe or give any new meaning at all, it just paraphrasing.Lucia Black (talk) 21:32, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Also note, that this type of thing, especially when it comes to citing interviews (which is the vast majority of what articles source for development/production information) isn't new and don't change the meaning. And these are articles that are GA and even featured articles aswell. And I believe its so common that even both you (Huon and ChrisGualtieri) are aware of this type of phrasing in articles when citing Interviews. To claim that stating Oshii gave multiple reason is construing the source just because its "one statement" is ludicrous. You're both making it out as if its providing "new ideas" in which it is not.Lucia Black (talk) 21:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:SAY states we should be careful with synonyms for "say", and it explicitly mentions "clarify" as a more loaded term we should avoid. So I find your examples of what other editors may do elsewhere unconvincing. More to the point, the version of the article before your edit said Oshii was asked why he directed the movie, and it said Oshii replied. Do you disagree with those assertions? Whether or not Oshii's reply was on topic is an unrelated issue, and one on which we should not issue an opinion without a secondary source. Whether he gave multiple reasons or multiple aspects of the same reason is debatable. So why exactly should we step into this quagmire instead of plainly stating undisputed facts? If you dislike mentioning that Oshii replied to a question (though I don't see that as a problem myself; rather, it sounds like you want to remove context), how about this:

On his reasons for directing the movie Mamoru Oshii said:

Regarding the "redundant to even cite the source in prose" line of reasoning, that seems rather far-fetched. All Misplaced Pages content should be based on reliable third-party sources, so all content arguably is redundant to the sources, and we could get rid of articles altogether and just have lists of sources... Or are you opposed to all quotes on Misplaced Pages and think we should never quote but always paraphrase? If not, why should this quote be considered unnecessarily redundant to the source and removed? Huon (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Again, it doesn't change the actual meaning, but what you were arguing more is that if the source didn't say in fact the word "reason" we couldn't use it. Which meant you were stating that the only way we can provide the information was if the current rendition. but again, paraphrasing is still a valid choice, especially if ChrisGualtieri considers certain parts of the whole statement unnecessary (sentence 2). So what i'm saying is that we don't need to say "when asked about question X director stated this and this" and then cite interview A. Ref A states this.(citation of ref A). understand? if i said "in the foreward, author X stated this" and then use the forward itself as a source. it would e redundant to mention where the information came from in the prose if the ref already covers where it came from. Whats important is the statement, not the background of the statement. Which is by choosing what is more relevant, as long as we present whats relevant accurately. Paraphrasing is still acceptable. So we can most definitely use the example you gave.Lucia Black (talk) 22:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Sound

I'm sure the production of sound is relevant to production, but i believe its more relevant in the soundtrack of the film. Not only that but some analysis information not related to production is in the music section.Lucia Black (talk) 22:31, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Critical Analysis

I find that there's too much notes being don to defend a general idea. It would be better to present whatever relevant information there is in the prose instead. Critical Analysis definitely needs to be expanded by who said what exactly. It just seems to be taken as fact, and not enough "analysis". Something along the lines of the last sentence. Also because its analysis, its relevant to bring what books its referenced in the prose, and will not be as redundant (but necessary). If its referencing something such as "analysis of Ghost in the Shell film" sort of speak, it might be best to just cite the books existence and what the book contains in general.Lucia Black (talk) 22:51, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• You clearly do not even understand what you are talking about. You have absolutely no idea about anything in this entire section and it is extremely obvious. This is relevant prose. And absolutely everything is cited here. You seem to be having some very big WP:CLUE issues here. Or is this just more of you trying to actively disrupt and derail this GA as pointed out above. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

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