Misplaced Pages

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New positions: Sign up to be a Misplaced Pages Visiting Scholar, or a Volunteer Misplaced Pages Librarian

Misplaced Pages Loves Libraries: Off to a roaring start this fall in the United States: 29 events are planned or have been hosted.

New subscription donations: Cochrane round 2; HighBeam round 8; Questia round 4... Can we partner with NY Times and Lexis-Nexis??

New ideas: OCLC innovations in the works; VisualEditor Reference Dialog Workshop; a photo contest idea emerges

News from the library world: Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

New ways to get involved: Visiting scholar requirements; subject guides; room for library expansion and exploration

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There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Blocked

I guess its ok to not give a fuck but telling someone else to fuck off is always unparlimentary. Spartaz 21:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Is it? So telling someone that disagrees with your edits that they have WP:OWN issues is fine? It would be nice if folks just didn't reach for the block button but actually investigated issues. But I guess I should expect this. Too much trouble to actually investigate the talk page issues... easier to block. Never mind that the "fuck off" comment was when Eric got templated with a message (that didn't even point out what the perceived personal attack was...) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Even a mild-mannered TPS like myself could figure that chain of events out. It's always ok to be a full-on douche if you don't cuss, but the second you do... And doesn't this show ALWAYS repeat itself about this time? Intothatdarkness 21:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm not at all sure what a 3-hour block is meant to achieve, but ours is not to reason why. Eric Corbett 21:35, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Which calendar or clock is that three hours on? It might be vitally important to know that bit of information. Intothatdarkness 21:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably a Mayan calendar, after all every time someone swears here, the end of the world gets a little bit closer. Parrot of Doom 22:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I watched Demolition Man the other evening. You may remember the machines that automatically issued paper tickets every time someone used a swear word. John Spartan, having found no toilet paper in the loo, swore repeatedly into the sensor to get as much paper as he could to wipe his arse. That's pretty much how I feel about these stupid blocks. Eric Corbett 22:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Next time, tell someone to "shove their three sea shells where the sea doesn't shine". That'll confuse them. Parrot of Doom 23:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

By that token we should just abolish the 3RR - we have to have some standard and telling someone to fuck off has to beyond the pale. Its not as if Eric can't make the same point without resorting to profanity. Spartaz 21:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Full moon tonight, maybe? I don't know, I'm going to have to go off to shoot holes in paper targets shortly. Tonight is our Halloween themed night at pistol club - we're doing zombie targets! And glow-in-the-dark targets! And pumpkin targets! So at least I have a way to release my annoyances with the people around here who seem to think winning an argument is more important that anything else. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Have I been blocked again? This place really is going to the dogs. Eric Corbett 21:25, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Woof. :-) Its only 3 hours and your comment about being a hypocritical clown made me smile. Spartaz 21:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

If I was to give you a list of admins who'd told editors to fuck off would you block them as well? Eric Corbett 21:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. Remember? . The Rambling Man (talk) 21:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

@Eric, probably but only if the incident was recent enough. Spartaz 21:43, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

How recent is "recent enough"? Eric Corbett 21:46, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Very. Spartaz 21:49, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

So how long is "very"? Eric Corbett 22:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Personally it would have to be within a few hours of the block or it becomes historical and too late to block. Spartaz 22:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd be on that list. Although, in my defense, they really deserved it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You'd be very far from the only one, but it's obviously one rule for you and another for the worthless plebs like me. Eric Corbett 21:50, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It is handy having a cloak of invincibility. I don't actually deserve it, but it seems a shame not to use it once every couple of years if I have it available to me. If I could loan it to you, I would, but I can't. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Some editors, notably Demiurge1000 believe that I already have one of those cloaks. Eric Corbett 22:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, I remember that. You should just switch to one of your many admin sockpuppet accounts for the next 2:30. I'd let you use mine - I'm about to go offline - but if someone saw my account make an article-space edit without at least seven commas and two misspellings, they'd know something was fishy. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:17, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It's also interesting that the same article generate a "go fuck yourself" by a different editor with no block. Intothatdarkness 21:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Is there no end to administrative yuk on Wikipediedia? To be consistent Spartaz, you should now embark on the full time job of locating and blocking admins who are uncivil to content builders. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec) In a different block situation, Bishonen mentioned poking, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I was called a prat earlier on today, but I didn't go crying to Mummy. So my question to Spartaz is how do you grade profanities? Eric Corbett 22:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You can call me a prat if you like and I couldn't care less. Personally, I'd only instunctively block for calling someone a cunt or telling them to fuck off - anything else would depend on context and the circumstances so there is no straight answer beyond that. Check my blocks I do very few and mostly for disruptive socking. Spartaz 22:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You're a prat. Eric Corbett 22:59, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Water off a ducks back but thanks for helping me win a bet. Spartaz 23:01, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

So off-Wiki collusion, no surprise there. Eric Corbett 23:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Mrs Spartaz doesn't count as off wiki collusion but thanks for assuming the worst. I'm not on IRC and not plugged into any wiki social networks so no collusion at all. Spartaz 23:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

In which universe does a collaboration with your wife not count as off-wiki? Eric Corbett 23:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

You mean that a humerous comment to my non-editing and very disinterested wife along the lines of I bet I'm going to get called a prat is now colluding about something? Really Eric you need to work on your perspective a bit. I'm off to bed now, your block will have expired in the morning and you can go back to insulting other editors. Spartaz 23:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It's you needs to look at your perspective Spartaz, perhaps by considering your personal attack above. Eric Corbett 23:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Pot meet kettle. Nighty night. Spartaz 23:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Eric, I thought that was kind of funny. I can't believe Mrs. Spartaz is actually so involved that she'll take a bet on some wiki business, but hey. Drmies (talk) 01:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I was told once that calling someone a "donkey raping shit eater" is frowned upon. But "prat" seems a bit over the top really</sarc> Shitty block. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:56, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Piss poor block. Saying "fuck off" isn't even a personal attack, and its downright tame compared to transgressions which go on at ANI every day. Now, Spartasz, how about "bugger off", "piss off", or any of the other colourful terms? Are you seriously going to unilaterally declare a single word verboten? Wow...  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:07, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

  Piss poor block from a piss poor administrator, of which there is no shortage. Eric Corbett 23:11, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• Let me state my position bluntly; Misplaced Pages needs me far more than I need Misplaced Pages. Eric Corbett 23:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

It's time for content editors to rescue Misplaced Pages from this bizarre system. Content builders are at the mercy of hundreds of these loose cannon "admins". There's no centralised control, not even a mission statement so admins know what they are here for. Each admin just rolls their own idea of what they think they are about, and then acts them out, like Spartaz. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I have a feeling it won't end well if you don't stop the profanity Eric Corbett. --Pretty les♀, Dark Mistress, talk, 23:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

My idea is that I don't give a fuck what you think. Eric Corbett 00:15, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, this is the last time I edit this talk page, Eric... I really suggest you stop name calling. You are not welcome here if you are going to keep up with this, and it is unacceptable behavior. --Pretty les♀, Dark Mistress, talk, 00:56, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

That you won't be back here is the best news I've heard on WP today. Eric Corbett 00:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Party's over, folks. Eric doesn't need your fatherly or motherly advice; he needs mine but he won't take it, and that's his good right. Spartaz, fo shizzle, there was no need for that. Drmies (talk) 01:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Given that we don't have a civility policy -- just a meme we wave our hands at every once in a while -- sporadic blocks are the logical consequence of playing civility / admin roulette (the ball lands on 00 every once in a while). Anyway, you've come up here: Misplaced Pages:Administrator_review/Floquenbeam too. NE Ent 01:35, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

• I expected better from an experienced admin - but then again, I can't say I'm shocked. The thing is, when an editor gets treated like shit early and often - it takes an utter fool to expect some sort of turn the cheek Mr. Nice Guy attitude. Typically a reasonable person would expect open, honest, and blunt speech from the offended party - but then again, this is Misplaced Pages huh? — ChedZILLA 01:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

  I've never been one for turning the other cheek, but it's quite clear to me that anyone who knows what they're doing and Misplaced Pages are quite incompatible. So I think I'll remain on a voluntary block. Eric Corbett 01:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

  Oh, that's what you said last time too. Illegitimi non carborundum. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 03:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

  I'm just focusing on the sig colors. Eric's is green. Dark Mistress's is pink. And Ched's (my good friend) is patriotic. The rest of us are dull.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe this is a good time for bacon and beer and not in that order. ;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 01:52, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite certain that many will be disappointed that the block wasn't indefinite, until I grovel at the feet of the admins. But as I've said several times before, I'll decide when it's time to leave, not the impotent sanctimonious arse holes like Spartaz. Eric Corbett 15:08, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Considering that a short block clearly doesn't have the intended result, and that your previous long block for personal attacks was for 1 month (with some subsequent lengthening and shortening), you haev now been blocked for 3 months for the continued personal attacks (calling someone an "impotent arse hole", not in the heat of the moment but after your block has expired and "after some serious consideration", and adjusting it a few minutes later to change it into "impotent sanctimonious arse holes"). Fram (talk) 15:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You have rather nicely proved my point you impotent sanctimonious arse hole. Eric Corbett 15:23, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I have mentioned the block at the older section Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Incivility and personal attacks by User:Eric Corbett. Fram (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention "cunt" . Eric, its really obvious you were pushing the envelope to get exactly this result, so the melodramatic passive aggressive outrage is really cliche. You got exactly what you wanted. Be happy. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

As did others, obviously. An excuse to block. Let the congratulatory back-slapping and fist-bumping commence. Intothatdarkness 15:33, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you just fuck off? Eric Corbett 15:31, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Enough is enough.

I'm changing this to indef. Every single edit since you've been blocked yesterday has been unacceptable. I will be blocking this talk page and moving this conversation to the administrators noticeboard to discuss further. Worm(talk) 15:34, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

For the record - conversation available here Worm(talk) 15:40, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Another pathetic drama. Everyone knows Eric won't change his behaviour (and nor should he). If he wants to contribute, blocking his account indefinitely will make no difference, since he can just open another.

The huge wall of text on that thread could have been a new article. But I guess that's just too difficult. Parrot of Doom 23:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

unprotected

I've unprotected this page, since whatever Eric says isn't hurting anyone's feelings but the people watching it (and you can just stop doing that). Try not to offend the peanut gallery, Eric. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 23:30, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

WTF is going on here? Seriously. I see another freaking arb com case in the making and frankly this really disturbs me. I thought that Misplaced Pages was not censored and that all such civility blocks were to be discussed. Oh...I forgot, not all admin remember that their personal opinion is as important to everyone else on this on this site. Look guys...if you think you're proving a point...I would only say...it may not be the exact point you were trying to make.

Eric...get a grip please. You are not above everyone else and you know it. How does your being blocked improve this project? You are just adding fuel to the fire. Why is it so hard for you to be respectful and why do you always seem to fall into these traps. Yes...traps. Sometime you are like a bear in the woods looking for the bear trap to complain about how much it hurts when your foot is caught. Get over yourself and PLEASE try to remember that editors are real people with feelings that...when pushed to a wall, will snap back. Why not try taking a very long break and looking deep within yourself about what you want from this site, or...just say "fuck it" and find Larry Sangers site and see if that is any better for you. Personally I have always respected you, but respect is not something you seem to care much for (I think you even said as much to me once). If you continue down this path....eventually editors that support you (me being one of them) will lose interest and just not give a fuck themselves. Seriously...how far should you take this and what is your exact point? Then again...I probably don't count in your book to begin with and am not the person to make this attempt. I think you are worth at least this much...but others will probably disagree.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)--Mark Miller (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Let me put it as simply as I can. I have absolutely zero interest in some 1960's hippie idea of civility, and respect is something that has to be earned, not awarded by fiat. Eric Corbett 00:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I was about to say citizendium was to all intents deceased, but it seems to be a bit busier of late... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I am old enough to be considered a 1960's hippie. LOL! But...respect is something that you give to everyone until they demonstrate that they don't deserve it...otherwise you are admitting you treat EVERYONE with disrespect until they prove they deserve YOUR respect. Frankly....why does anyone give a shit if you respect them. You don't want anyone else's respect. There is a logical course these things take by your own words Eric. I don't really care if you like me or not. I like you so tuff shit brotha! ;)--Mark Miller (talk) 00:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Tomorrow an article I worked on will be appearing on the main page. Hopefully some of you civility warriors will keep an eye on it, as I obviously can't. Eric Corbett 00:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Probably....because that is how Misplaced Pages works.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Or more accurately doesn't work. Eric Corbett 00:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah.....I'm getting that now...trust me.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

@Mark Miller: To say that if you do not treat everyone with respect, then you (necessarily) treat them with disrespect is a fallacy called "false dilemma" and various other terms. The "necessarily" is there because of the way you have made the argument. You can read about it in False Dilemma. It is one of the fundamental issues one looks for when analyzing errors in arguments. In short, one can suspend any shift to either extreme (respect or disrespect) until one has sufficient reason to make that move. Imposing "assume good faith" cannot equally arguably be imposed, though wikipedia tries to do so, but that is quite different from issues of respect.  DDStretch  (talk) 03:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Meh....treating everyone you encounter equally bad and until they prove themselves worthy...is just reverting AGF...that is simply not a false dilemma. It is saying you can't cooperate in a manner to Misplaced Pages standards and I think Eric is better than that because he is capable of being civil, he just allows too many editors to get on his bad side too quickly. He is one of the top content contributors we have but he is human and after all...to err is human.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

You obviously have not understood the point I was trying to make to you. You use biased language ("equally bad") when I clearly said you make no judgment ("suspend any shift to either extreme"), so neither "bad" nor "good" would be appropriate here, if indeed they would ever be. And my use of "false dilemma" here is entirely correct, because you implied that if you did not respect someone, you must disrespect them, which is clearly untrue: there is a middle ground which is why the false dilemma is also called the law of the excluded middle'. It similarly doesn't mean that you do not cooperate to wikipedia standards, either. Again, you have not thought clearly enough about the issue. As I said, it says NOTHING about civility here, and the language will be neutral, because you can be non-decisive about whether to give respect or not to people whilst still being perfectly civil in your interactions with them, which is really the only objective way that respect could be assessed. Please go back and consider very carefully what I wrote and how it doesn't imply what you wrote. These flawed assumptions you have made and expressed are some of the major issues that makes such drama on wikipedia almost inevitable, because you assume people adopt extreme positions when they may not do at all!  DDStretch  (talk) 04:37, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

What is obvious to me is that you are creating drama, not me. I understood you, I just don't agree.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:42, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry that you think I am causing drama with you, because that is not my intention. Neither am I trying to cause drama in the wider sphere; quite the reverse! I am trying to make a wider point by showing how drama can be prevented by reducing some specific logical fallacies in thinking. This particular logical fallacy, if used, will make people think one is accusing them of having an extreme position that they do not, and thus, drama will become more likely. One can stop that at source by thinking and writing better. We all make mistakes, and it is helpful to have them pointed out. I am sad that you still maintain that you cannot agree with me. I am acting to try to improve matters here. It is all part of Critical Thinking, which I would say, needs to be improved on wikipedia in general.  DDStretch  (talk) 04:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Much of what you say has merit. But we can't control how people think. The odd thing is...I was trying to improve matters myself as well but don't agree a mistake was made. For whatever it's worth, I understand what you are saying.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I know and accept your intentions were good. But I do think wikipedia does try to control how people think by encouraging certain kinds of behaviour. It is known in experimental and cognitive psychology that this can be done: behaving in certain ways will tend to affect your thinking about the relevant things. I am interested in the fact that you say you understand what I am saying, but that you do not agree with it. The obvious question is "why?" Karl Popper once wrote "I may be wrong and you may be right, and by an effort, we may get closer to the truth". I'm interested in this issue.  DDStretch  (talk) 05:08, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Because understanding you and agreeing with you are not mutually exclusive. What you want is an explanation of my reasoning to disagree. It's already there, but you want more. I just don't have the enthusiasm to say more on it ( your original past not the rest).--Mark Miller (talk) 05:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually...I caught that after I posted it (I Googled it), but thought...let's see if this editor is just parsing words to be argumentative or will just drop it. Well...there you go. Drama is much more likely because you can't shut the fuck up. LOL! Seriously though..."I contend, that drama becomes much more likely because that (illogical) position is being maintained" No...it is because you feel inclined to argue it. Have a happy Halloween.--Mark Miller (talk) 07:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

So, you deliberately set a trap, eh? You see, we can both play at that stupid game. The fact is we were arguing about logical issues, and you used to totally incorrect term. You say you knew that, but we don't know that, do we? If I assume good faith and accept what you say, you are still condemned by the setting trap argument. You say I cause drama by not "shutting the fuck up", well, sorry, but there are important issues to discuss, and you can't stop your continued illogical position being discussed by attacking me and wanting to end the discussion by threatening me with accusations of causing drama and "not shutting the fuck up", just because (I think you may suspect) you are losing! You see, you say I am causing the drama, but look at your own behaviour here as well. That is part of the entire problem. People do not think carefully or deeply about the issues.  DDStretch  (talk) 04:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Block ended

Block ended per AN consensus.--Mojo Hand (talk) 02:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I must admit you were right, Eric. The admins are impotent. -- 101.119.14.178 (talk) 08:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Notification of Arbitration request

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Baiting and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for arbitration;
• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 00:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we all know how that will end up, but of course being blocked I can't take part in your lynching anyway. Eric Corbett 00:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Do you wish to be unblocked for the purpose of participating directly in the arbitration request? AGK 00:26, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

_{For god's sake just say yes and defend yourself.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)}

No. Eric Corbett 00:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Then if you wish to make a statement, please post it here and somebody (probably a clerk) will copy it over. AGK 00:39, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't wish to make a statement, there would be no point anyway. Eric Corbett 00:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I know you mean well, AGK, but the man was just blocked and had his own talk page fully protected by a member of the committee just a few short hours ago. If the goal is to calm things down a bit, the better offer might be to unblock him so that he can go back to writing his articles and ask him to refrain from engaging on the arbcom pages until the "proposed decision" phase. It's supposed to be about writing an encyclopedia (or so they say), right? --SB_Johnny | ✌ 00:53, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't help but agree here.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. The lack of even-handedness, from previous events, is not surprising, but it certainly does directly contribute to bringing wikipedia into (more) disrepute.  DDStretch  (talk) 03:09, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

MT's point about this place's abysmal record when dealing with baiting is spot on. Reporting a baiter usually earns such pearls of wisdom as "just ignore them," "go take a walk until they go away," and so on. This from admins who supposedly know better. The problem has a much wider scope than Eric, and if people would just pull back from their myopic block fixation they might notice that. I know Montana's had some experience with serial baiters, and I've gotten involved in some of those disputes as well. Most of those baiters are tenacious, fixated little bastards, yet to a myopic observer they appeared somewhat civil so the usual platitudes about talking walks and deep breaths flowed. When you admin on a serious message board, baiters are among the first folks you whack with big sticks. Here...you enable them. Even promote them. Pathetic. Intothatdarkness 13:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Totally agree. It's a sad state of affairs.  DDStretch  (talk) 14:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Request for data/evidence for my attempt to get some actual numbers on baiting. I would really like to see another count by someone who holds a different position than the editor who did the first count. Is anyone here willing to help? Please note that I have no dog in this fight. I just want decisions to be based upon evidence as opposed to impressions and anecdotes. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:47, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The challenge is that I'm not just looking at baiting of Eric, but at baiting as a wider problem. And there will be many instances where people simply don't report it, or take the poor advice to "walk away" or "take a short wiki-break." That's harder to track. In this particular case, the whole thing seems to have had its origin in the Guy Fawkes talk page. I also have to admit that I'm wary of relying on numbers (even though I know that's the current fad here and elsewhere). Numbers are far too easy to manipulate and don't capture the actual human impact of this problem. Intothatdarkness 14:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Well I see the request for arbitration was withdrawn almost two and a half hours ago but no-one seems to have bothered to inform Eric - unless it was done by email. Richerman (talk) 14:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Why would anyone take the trouble to tell me? I'm just a piece of shit on the sole of the admin's shoes, or so I've been told. Eric Corbett 23:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Building an encyclopedia

Glad to have you back. Take care and have fun. Candleabracadabra (talk) 03:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

RfC/U

I have just started Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Eric Corbett. It is still empty for the moment, I'll start filling it out soon. You are welcome to present your perspective, opinions, evidence, solutions, ... although you are obviously not obliged to participate. My aim (perhaps naively) is to decrease tensions, find solutions and compromises, so that you can focus on productive editing and no further blocks (for anyone involved) and long discussions are needed. I hope that you are willing to give this a shot. Fram (talk) 08:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Fram, were there proper enforcement mechanisms you would be blocked indefinitely for disruption. Please stop hounding content contributors and start taking a collegial and cooperative approach to editing. Obviously you are not the only one, but we have to start addressing the pattern abusive admin behavior somewhere. Candleabracadabra (talk) 08:23, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

User:Fram, can you please move that out of RfC space so that it can be worked on prior to creation. That is one option that might have to happen, but I think it's premature - and that the fact that you're creating it empty is unhelpful. Worm(talk) 08:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

WTT, "creating it empty" is what the template does: plezase try to file an RfC/U via the RfC pages and not have it empty. Fram (talk) 08:30, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It is now at User:Worm That Turned/Eric Corbett, the rest of my above comment remains the same. Fram (talk) 08:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Yuk. Misplaced Pages hitting the bottom. --Epipelagic (talk) 09:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The overall issue really is "reaction breeds reaction". If everybody stopped reacting none of this would happen. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:31, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Suggestions for moving forward

Hi Eric.

Both the encyclopedia and the community has a number of fundamental issues. We all know this. One of them played out over the past few days and that is traced back to the way that you handle people. It's a large recurring issue. Certain users would go on about block logs, causing offence and driving people away, whilst others would go on about baiting, admins who don't think and destruction of articles. Both sides have valid points and you're skewered with all the sharp ends. I want to see the cycle end. I hoped that the change in your username would push that to happen, that people would put the past behind them, but unfortunately it hasn't had that effect.

I've got at least one suggestions on how we can move forward, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. If you'd prefer to just ignore me all together, just say so, I'll understand. I'll even specifically state that should Eric's response be even horrifically uncivil, I do not want him blocked for it, I'm sure I'll more than deserve it.

The way I see it, we have a number of problems.

• Many, but not all, of your comments are at people you have never encountered before.
• Many, but not all, of your outbursts are the result of provocation.
• Many, but not all, of your blocks were either excessive or not required at all.

I've seen very few people defend your comments, though many excuse them by pointing out the provocation or mitigate them by pointing out the hard work you do. Both are valid points of view, but there comes a point that the community must say enough is enough. I was both naive and arrogant to think that I could rally the community to a solution that I felt was workable (short term non-escalating blocks for you, along with equivalent or increasing blocks for the provoker). Sure, it would increase the size of your block log, but it stop the big arguments and stop the stupid long blocks for a single angry comment. That solution didn't gain traction, which is a shame as to your credit - whenever you've had something imposed upon you, you've stuck to it.

So, what else could work? I know from previous discussions that mentorship isn't something you'd be keen on, but what about getting together a group of editors you respect as advisers? People would be glad to help, I can guarantee it. This advisory group could come up with a plan for the future and take actions like quietly redacting comments that they feel are likely create a situation, recommending that you take the rest of the evening off or that you keep away from articles and take over that stewardship while you're gone. You would have to work out with those advisers what actions they would take and when. It would need to be recorded somewhere so that the community could get on board, and I'd recommend getting a few admins on board to add some weight to the idea. Do you think something like that would be possible?

I should mention that unless this or something else goes forward, storm clouds are gathering. You'll see above that there are murmurs of an RfC/U, an all together unpleasant experience. I don't want to see you leave the encyclopedia, either by choice or under duress, but at the same time, I don't see how we can carry on in the same manner. Worm(talk) 12:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the problem really. Anyone who takes objection to being called an arsehole should simply stop behaving like one, and I'm certainly not interested in a group of advisers. Neither do I have any interest in a potential RFC/U, which of course I would not be taking part in anyway. This knee-jerk blocking has to stop, and that's the problem you ought to be addressing. Eric Corbett 13:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't expect you to participate in any RfC, though that doesn't stop it from being a horrible experience. I know I would be unable to keep from reading it, were one about me, just as I've read every word about me and my motives elsewhere. I don't participate at those places, but that doesn't stop it being noticed. Carrying on the metaphor with knee-jerks is that they're a reflex, one that doesn't go through the brain. Whatever the brain decides, if someone hits that small spot the knee will jerk. The only way to stop a knee-jerk is to not hit the spot in the first place and since you're the one with the hammer... you're the only one in the position to stop it. Worm(talk) 13:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You're not me, and I would find it very easy to entirely ignore the whole thing. It would just be the usual suspects calling for my head again anyway, not very illuminating really. I understand Fram's eagerness to get started though, as it's a precursor to another ArbCom case at which he could have a reasonable chance of finally getting me banned. Eric Corbett 13:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You also have the option to defuse the whole lot, by simply ceasing to abuse other editors. You can still think what you like of them, or of me, but if you just stop pressing those keys, the whole problem goes away. It's a very small sacrifice to make.

You will of course still be trolled and provoked by some. However there are also plenty of admins with block buttons who do support you and would stamp on that promptly, if only they aren't first beaten to it by your reaction and then admin reactions to that. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:45, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I'm not you and if you can ignore completely what people say about you, you are a bigger man than me. So, from my scratchpad -

1. Proposal to force Eric to take a short period off when he's provoked, along with the provoker
2. A group of advisers that Eric trusts work with him
3. Change the entire encyclopedia to work around Eric Poorly worded - Global change to allow Eric to carry on as he is.
4. Ignore the problem and hope it gets better
5. We lose Eric (blocked or quit)
6. Other

3 is not going to happen, 4 has gone on too long. My only hope is that option 6 is suggested by someone brighter than me, hence the RfC, otherwise, we're left with 5. Please, do consider the adviser idea. Have a chat with some people you trust and get some other opinions. Sleep on it. You know where I am if you ever want my thoughts. Worm(talk) 13:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Worm, I am disappointed that, even after all that discussion, your Point 3 is phrased as "to work around Eric" and your scratch pad doesn't include broader options to address a global problem. It seems you perhaps really do believe it is All About and Only About Eric, or that he is the only valued editor we may lose because of uneven application of policy and admin cabals. I guess I was typing in vain to point out that it is not about Eric and not only Eric, and hoping to get some people to look at the bigger picture, of which Eric is just the most noticed example, precisely because he shines the light on the hypocrisy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You are right. I worded it that poorly. I meant "Global change to allow Eric to carry on as he is". The point remains the same, a global change isn't the solution here, the community takes so much convincing to change it's "policy". Look at how much work had to go into removing "Verifiability, not truth" or any other big change over the past few years. We don't have a well defined civility policy and we're not likely to get one. That means it's down to interpretation and Eric is the focal point of the divide. That means the we need to sort things for Eric, stop the focus there, then move on to the general case - that's even assuming the general case is fixable. Worm(talk) 14:10, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

well, I think there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that as long as folks are focused on Eric as The Problem, they will continue to miss the broader points, possible solutions, and the effect that has been visited not only upon Featured articles, but also at the GA level and DYK level and all content review processes ... that is, content and editors have been affected at every level because some abuse from some editors is tolerated and overlooked by their admin friends, and they can have a chilling effect on content review processes because they are allowed to be abusive depending on who their admin friends are. Perhaps your perspective on this would shift if you were to examine my fictitious block log and my current talk page. Why do your options not include the possibility of cracking down on abusive admins and recognition that many editors get away with worse than Eric, while others are blocked for ... nothing? Others see that admin actions are at the heart of the problem ... to wit, the civility arb remedies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Eric, I can understand that this is hard to believe, but I genuinely hope that an RfC/U, or any other attempt, will get this somehow resolved. The only thing I can say that may convince you is my history with Kiefer Wolfowitz. I blocked him repeatedly as well, the last time for a month. But after that, I tried to resolve the problems by suggesting a mutual interaction ban with some other editors, and I unblocked him when I felt that a block was undeserved (log reason "Severely provoked by someone who should really know better"). It eventually ended at ArbCom anyway, and he was banned there, but I have not instigated that ArbCom or did anyting there to get him blocked (I didn't participate at all apart from a statement in Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds about my unblock). My aim is not to get people banned (if they have things to contribute, which in your or Kiefer's case has never been in doubt), my aim is to find a way to convince them to contribute while at the same time following basic policy. One of our policies is that even if people behave like arseholes in your opinion, you shouldn't call them arseholes on wikipedia. My methods may well be totally wrong, my priorities may be in the wrong order, but that doesn't mean that my motives are totally wrong as well, or that I am lying about them. Fram (talk) 13:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

We're never going to agree, as you're seeing a different problem to the one that I'm seeing, and your RFC/U won't solve that. Eric Corbett 14:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. Would it help in any way if I didn't involve myself with the RfC and it was started by editors you consider to be more neutral or positive or whatever? Fram (talk) 14:07, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

As I said to WTT, I have no interest in any RFC/U, and wouldn't be taking part in it or even reading it. So it hardly matters really. Eric Corbett 14:20, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

OK. Fram (talk) 14:24, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Eric, I get told to "fuck off" from time to time in support / retail roles, and I know elderly patients suffering from dementia in care homes tell the nurses to "go fuck themselves" with optional racial and sexist slurs thrown in. It's just the way some people are. So if you ever want to tell somebody to fuck off, just email me with abusive insults that make Gunnery Sergeant Hartmann from Full Metal Jacket look like a vicarage tea party and I'll file them away somewhere. Then go and write another brilliant article that passes FAC like a knife through butter. Simples. Ritchie333 14:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, anything can pass FAC these days like a knife through butter. Partly because we no longer have Eric and other competents like him and Tony1 checking prose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps this will help... --Guy Macon (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I've never met anyone as mardy as you. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 15:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It comes down to saying what you think. At this very minute I'd love to call Bus stop on the Peter Sellers talk page something along Eric's lines but I know I'd probably be blocked for "incivility". I can't imagine it not crossing anybody's minds on a civility-obsessed website like wikipedia that they're likely going to be blocked for calling somebody a cunt or an asshole, even if it is probably the truth in a lot of cases. If I was blocked for everytime I thought it about people I encounter on this website almost daily, I'd be blocked almost daily.. Misplaced Pages is full of such people, but informing them of what they are doesn't really change the situation or make them any less likely to stop being like it.. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Ladies and germs: I've just stuck my neck out exhuming Drmies' suggested solution (a modification of Floquenbeam's): WP:AN#Revisiting Drmies' proposal for a general rule on civility enforcement. This is primarily official notification of Eric, since a ping is insufficient. Yngvadottir (talk) 18:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I think people just misunderstand Eric on a number of levels. I've spent a great deal of time working with him on two GAs, and FA, plus many misc. articles and issues and under no circumstances can I say "I understand him". He isn't so simple to know. I've never bumped heads with him, even when we disagree, but then again, I don't spout off to people or act disrespectful when I disagree. I have learned a few things along the way, such as once you have pissed of Eric, you are better off if you just leave him alone and stop prodding him. I think Worm has the best of intentions and I applaud the effort and kindness that went into this (and I do NOT know the back story here but I doubt it matters), but you aren't going to get Eric to change. He is who he is. On the whole, I find the vast majority of who is to be entertaining, thoughtful, witty and extremely helpful. A small portion of who he is, well, is a pain in the ass. So am I, so is each of you. Eric is just a bit more colorful in his verbiage than some. And sometimes kind of funny, if we are honest with ourselves.

If Eric called me an asshole, my first reaction wouldn't be to judge Eric but to question my own actions. Maybe I said something wrong, or maybe I was really being an asshole. I've yet to see him throw around colorful language where it wasn't justified, even if it wasn't prudent. Besides, some people take comments like that entirely too personal. Good lord, we are just a website. If you have to block him, block him. If you have to drag him to ANI or ARB, then do it but be prepared for what follows. Asking him to change is a waste of time however, as it just isn't going to happen. We are NOT all equal here, no matter how much we try to treat everyone equal. "Fair" is not the same as "Equal". Each of our contributions are either worth the pain we cause the community, or they are not. That isn't in policy, that is just the unspoken reality. Besides, we aren't here to build a community, we are here to build an encyclopedia, and when Eric isn't preoccupied defending himself, he is pretty good at building an encyclopedia. So do what you must, but I suggest a light touch. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem for me though Dennis isn't what Eric says, it's the way the admins/community respond to him and the time wasting which ensues after he says something, going around in circles, showing up the flaws of wiki governance and disagreement, and Eric still being the same guy through it all and most likely not being blocked for long. He is who he is, and no amount of blocking or discussing the issue is going to change the fact that he's more likely to say what he thinks than others on here. Making him the example of how important it is to stamp out incivility changes nothing on the website. If his comments are perceived as offensive any admin could silent remove them or warn him. I rarely see him warned, it's always a full block which usually seems excessive. What is the most damaging part of it for me is not what Eric says or does but how much time other decent editors waste here in discussing the blocking and defending him when they could be putting the time into writing articles. If the amount of kb of prose editors combined aired on the related discussions given here by editors went into writing decent prose we'd come on leaps and bounds. Stop reacting to what he says and move on, why does everything always have to blow into some pointless hyped drama? It's completely unnecessary and unproductive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:15, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand why everyone is twisting themselves in knots trying to preserve Eric's ability to be extremely rude to other editors, or to rationalize it in some way. For the vast majority of adults, it's really not that difficult to have a tiny bit of self-restraint, and put a small filter on the things you post on this site. It's really not difficult at all. It's a simple matter of will power. We all do it every day, both on Misplaced Pages and in the social encounters we have in "the real world". Perhaps what we should be discussing is why it seems to be so much more difficult for Eric than it is for the rest of us. Would Eric behave like this in "the real world"? Would he walk into a pub, order a beer, and if he didn't like the way the bartender poured the beer, would he tell him that he's a stupid fucking cunting wanking arse hole? If so, I would expect he'd have earned himself a few broken noses by this time. If he doesn't behave like this in "the real world", then why doesn't he? Is it the anonymity of the internet that makes him feel more comfortable with being rude, because the threat of immediate physical retaliatory consequences is diminished? Is that really a justification for being rude to complete strangers? ‑Scottywong| confess _ 20:48, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand what it is you think you're likely to achieve here. Well I do actually, but that's another story. Eric Corbett 20:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Snottywong - I find your comments here not helpful. While certainly not a personal attack, it's not a good choice for you to speculate on why someone else does anything differently than what you do. I suggest that you not insert yourself here ... it's not helpful and border-line baiting behavior. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

But that's the point really, and Scottywong's purpose. I just don't get this "you wouldn't be brave enough to call some a fucking cunt to their face" stuff at all though, as I've done so many times if I think they are, and I've only had my nose broken once. It's not something I find myself having to do very often, but it's a weapon in the armoury. Eric Corbett 21:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

@Scottywong - yeah historically I recall hospitals where there were surgeons who were reknowned as being...erm...brusque, and not known for their people skills (i.e. capable of delivering some pretty blunt comments and interactions)...but they were skilled with their hands and saved lives. I suspect this occurs in mnay real-life organisations - i.e. The Thick of It having even a smidgen of basis in reality...etc. Yes we all have ideal scenarios, but have to live with what we have and make the most of things. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

@Scotty - amen to that. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

This emphasis on me is simply dishonest, and intended to distract attention from addressing WP's very deep problems, which I guess is the point really. But as I've said before, I'll leave when I'm ready to, not when Scottywong or Kww thinks I should. Eric Corbett 00:01, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Scotty, what you are saying is the problem. Some people have this fixed idea of what is and isn't acceptable here, and if someone can't walk that line, they should be banned. Not only is it an American-centric view, that I find offensive and I'm an American, it is also narrow minded and unrealistic. Either accept Eric as he is (and take reasonable action when appropriate) or go to WP:AN and get concensus to permablock him. I don't think it will happen, but that would be the appropriate way to handle it. And I don't make excuses for Eric. Sometimes he pisses me off, but so what. There have been a couple times when I could see a week block (I like you Eric, but that doesn't mean you don't sometimes cross the line), but everyone goes overboard with the blocks. He is who is he is, accept it, block for a few days or a week when you need to, but only when it really is necessary, and we can stop the debates. I'm so bored with this same debate. The fact is, he DOES generate a lot of quality content, and that is what he does 99% of the time. Policy and "escalating blocks" be damned, I'm more concerned about practical solutions than fancy words. If we are truly here to build an encyclopedia, not a social networking site, then this is more practical. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 03:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Dennis, it is ironic that your signature includes a link to WP:WikiProject Editor Retention. How much do you think editor retention is affected when experienced editors fly off the handle and make extremely rude comments? Eric is a talented editor, no doubt, but what if his behavior over the years has caused several other equally talented editors to either leave Misplaced Pages, or just not even start editing? If my first impression of Misplaced Pages was formed while some stranger was telling me I'm a moron, there's a great chance that I wouldn't be here right now. It's easy for you to tell me to just accept his behavior, grow a thicker skin, and get over it. And honestly, his behavior doesn't bother me personally. I use profanity all the time in my social life; someone calling me a cunt doesn't affect me in the least. But, I know it does affect many other people. Therefore, I try not to use profanity on WP, I don't call people names on WP, I try not to personally attack other people as much as possible, and I take issue when other people make a habit of doing those things. You should too, if editor retention is important to you. What we really need is for everyone to stop making excuses for Eric, and hold him accountable for his actions. Last time I checked, civility was one of the 5 pillars. Are any of the other pillars routinely ignored just because the person who is violating their principles is talented and/or prolific? Should we also allow Eric to upload copyrighted images? After all, he is prolific, we wouldn't want to lose him, maybe we can allow just a few copyrighted images, right? Civility isn't any less important than the other 5 pillars just because it's more difficult to define its boundaries. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 05:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Who has he chased away? I hear these claims but I don't ever see names. I know many new editors he has helped a great deal, and have seen it with no own eyes, so it isn't anecdotal. I don't make excuses for him, I said if you need to block him a few days, do it, or get consensus for longer blocks. I've asked, but no one has shown me an example of where Eric unloaded on someone that didn't ask for it first. I agree he can sometimes strike back with unnecessary zest, but I've never seen him go off on someone unprovoked. There is a difference between "taking it too far" (which is still a problem), and unprovoked attacking of others (which isn't happening). Civility is a pillar but it isn't absolute nor clearly defined, and isn't as important as the first pillar, or it would have been listed first, and would have used "must" instead of "should". By necessity, it is relative. We aren't a court of law, I've no interest in "justice", I'm only concerned with solutions. It would be a lot easier to lean on Eric for more cooperation if some were not always calling for his permaban. Those tactics push those of us in the center in his direction, often making it impossible to deal with the real issue at hand. Oh, and comparing this situation to intentional copyright infringement is wildly inappropriate. Hyperbolic comparisons like that distract from the issue at hand and are part of the problem. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 07:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• The attempts to block and ban don't seem to work and so another process should be tried. How about a bleep censor using the revision deletion tool? This could be made global and mechanical as a bot or filter could be used to identify unparliamentary language and flag it for attention. An admin would then inspect the offending passage and delete it if it seemed too inflammatory. Simples. Warden (talk) 10:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Or perhaps a "cuss translator", which translates cuss words people find unacceptable to equivalents they find acceptable. The translator could be customised for individual tastes, so different users see different text. For example, it might be configured to translate "fuck you" to "have a nice day" (or conversly, translate "have a nice day" to "fuck you"). --Epipelagic (talk) 11:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Scotty, we "twist ourselves in knots" over Eric because when it comes down to it, content is more important than civility. Somebody said recently that 98% of Eric's mainspace editing goes into constructive article writing and copyediting. How many of the ANI and forum regulars could you say that about? If you tot up what he's done over the years and may well write in the future should he somehow regain his enthusiasm at some point then we can't afford to lose such editors. I don't think many of us support him calling people cunts or assholes here because of the repercussions and time wasting over civility and blocking disputes, but I think a lot of us understand that he's a passionate guy who is intolerant of people who get in his way and if somebody is acting like a complete asshole, taunting him or really being a nuisance then he really should be able to say what he thinks in any situation. You never see Eric go around talk pages picking fights with people and swearing at people just for the sake of it and abusing people, it's always in direct response to something he perceives to be insufferable, he's usually provoked with somebody over an article, on forums or on his talk page. He's a grown man, probably old enough to be some of the child admins grandfather. If what he says is perceived as offensive to people, an admin should silently remove and just drop the civility stick. We know how we ought to behave on wikipedia, but wikipedia is an intense website which is frequently frustrating. Given that Eric is not the sort of chap you can change and most of us agree he is a great editor who we can't afford to lose, and blocks always result in us going around in circles and show up the flaws of site governance, the only way to deal with this is really for an admin to remove anything sweary he says at somebody, even if Eric should really be free to say what he says as anybody in the real world. It isn't polite or OK to call somebody a cunt, but it also isn't fine to waste days of valuable time going around in circles every time he's blocked. Something really needs to change...♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree strongly with this, to the extent that, if an editor were "driven away" by something Eric wrote, then I believe Eric would probably have done WP a favour. People write such crap, and Eric is ace at clearing it up. Much more useful than a vandalism bot, most of Eric's time on WP is taken up with making sure what's there is worth reading – until this sort of time-wasting rears its ugly head. Just let him get on with it. Nortonius (talk) 12:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to make a contribution to this unseemly brouhaha. Until last Sunday I was an 'uninvolved editor' in what is obviouly a messy saga. On Sunday I saw that a number of edits had been made to an article I've done a fair amount of work on, Bristol Boxkite. The majority of these were a wholesale conversion of the reference format used in the article to the one he evidently prefers, the rest being tweaking punctuation. Many of these were difficult to 'see' because seemingly a whole para had been cut & pasted into a txt editor & then reinserted, so it was difficult to see where the added/ deleted comma or whatever was. I wholesale reverted & got on with stuff, & unwisely(in retrospect) & having considered the matter, left a messege on this page about the edits. I admit that the note was snippy, but having looked at his recent edits & noted an edit summary calling WP:CIVIL "hippy crap" I figured he could take it. I found the response both astonishing and disturbing: firstly the sarky claque, secondly the vituperative response from Eric. I could unpick it all further, but I have better things to do. Erics response to my post included returning to the Boxkite article to redo the cite format changes and make more 'minor copyedits' to the article, some plainly misinformed and others inexplicable. and most with unpleasant edit summaries. ("you've just got no bloody idea how to write a decent article"). I may not be Jonathan Swift and I freely admit my typing is rubbish, but I think my ability to write clear grammatical english is at least above average, and certainly does not warrant the level of condescension poured from an (attempted) great height. This provoked a reversion of the edits by another editor", & a request to take the matter to the article talk page. To which Eric contributed some abuse. And so it goes on. I'm losing the will to live anatomising the whole sorry story. Which makes the point: this man is jumping on editors with no real provocation. My note on his talk page may have been snippy but what I wanted was an answer: the response was clearly that of a man who wanted a fight. As his response de l'escalier clearly shows. (Sorry I'm too new to this to have worked out how to link to diffs.) This is the kind of behaviour that puts off editors, and the question is whether Eric alone is more valuable than a number of other editors. I doubt it. And it's an appalling waste of time and energy.TheLongTone (talk) 12:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

One thing I know is that when it comes to writing an encyclopedia, Eric knows his arse from his elbow. These little dramas are the result of other editors thinking they know their arse from their elbow but rarely do. The dramafest is the result of the watching vultures, admins, ips and others with axes to grind. I've been away but as far as I can work out Eric improved an article, someone objected, Eric was probably right but feathers were ruffled ad someone wanted something doing about it. Someone blocked then someone else blocked then an arb went over the top then somebody decided to request arbitration and now this. To the best of my knowledge Eric improves the encyclopedia, he does not bear grudges in the way many of the circling vultures do. Eric is at the centre of a lot of extremely vindictive axe-grinding brought about by editors who can't drop the stick or jealousy. He does not drive worthwhile editors away because the offended just join the civility vultures. Sticks and stones. J3Mrs (talk) 12:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

That looks like quite a fair apprasial, J3Mrs, in this case at last. But I think your analysis is a little overly simplistic. Some editors are very easily offended. Again, just human nature, alas. But what if some of these editors are as useful (or more importantly, potentially as useful) to the project as “good old Mally”? We all know that Eric can be as rude as Malleus – no surprise there. But does he know how to apologise? Before Eric gets blocked shouldn’t he at least be asked to apologise? Would you ever do that Eric? Or are you just too big and too valuable to have such a word hin your rich vocabulary? 20.133.0.13 (talk) 13:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Poking coward. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to stand up and be counted as one of those who doesn't always know their arse from their elbow (and frankly, if I did, I'd do writing as a paid career), but at least is making a conscious attempt to find out which is which - and that's why I generally don't have any issue with Eric, and neither should you. As Dennis said above, I've yet to see hard evidence of Eric being a direct cause of the encyclopedia getting worse. Ritchie333 14:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

So WP:CIVIL only applies if editors can first show proof {{cn}} of damage being caused by its non-observance? Are any of our other policies so conveniently optional? Just how does one get hold of one of these "I'm Eric, the rules don't apply to me" badges?

We have a rule that states "Do no abuse other editors". Not "Only abuse other editors if they're wrong" or even "Only abuse editors who know less than you do". This is a good rule and as I don't see a call for its general withdrawal, I still fail to see why any one editor gets a free pass on it.

We're regularly told that "Eric is special". If he has the wisdom to make better edits than anyone else, then I would also expect him to have the wisdom to hold his tongue from abuse. As he clearly does not, I find myself questioning the real value of his special editing skills. If he's that good, I doubt very much he'd be unable to get through a day without hurling abuse. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course, pontificating about another user in the third person on his own talk page is itself perfectly civil. Right. MLauba 16:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I like how some people presume that WP:CIVIL is some kind of religious text. If it were, then WP:ANI would probably be Saudi Arabia. Parrot of Doom 17:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Ritchie, I assume you were responding to me and not to Sandy? So is that our goal here – for Misplaced Pages to "not get any worse"? I would have thought a better aspiration might be for it to improve. How would you gather the evidence if potential good editors just get frightened away? Does Eric check on an editor’s pedigree before he decides to insult them? I think he rather does it in the heat if the moment. Sandy, I’m sorry if you think I am just being provocative. That was not my intention and I’m sorry if it came across that way. I may be a "coward" here for some strange reason, but I’m not trying to poke anyone. I think Misplaced Pages would be better as a single community than as a series of bickering gangs. Eric, you keep saying that you have no future here, so I wonder why you stay. Misplaced Pages may need you, but sometimes it seems to be just as some kind of gangland trophy. 20.133.0.13 (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be rather hard of understanding, as well as being a coward. What I've said repeatedly is that I'll leave when I decide to, not you or any other of the low life here. Eric Corbett 18:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Malkin Tower

Just saw this on the main page and wanted to say congratulations; a fine piece of writing, and a fine choice for Halloween... -- Khazar2 (talk) 17:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

soz, i'm a "minister of shit-hot articles"? awesome! Aunva7 (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Interesting that a slight discrepancy about the date of the alleged witches' coven came to light due to the main page appearance. Can't really remember anything useful like that happening at TFA before. Eric Corbett 18:48, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I remember such useful occurrences well - getting a key date for a TFA relevant to 20th century history wrong by 15 years is a rather striking example - just to imagine a comparison, if one had suggested in a TFA that racial segregation in U.S. schools had legally ended in 1949, there would have been an uproar! A smaller thing to compare to a larger, of course, but I got it fixed (after some argument with defenders of the article) due to TFA. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks User:Khazar2 for your kind message. Obviously this wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Eric! You can swear at me anytime :) --Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:30, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed — well done. Warden (talk) 10:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Warden, that's very nice of you to say so. I couldn't agree more. Drmies (talk) 16:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring. Thank you. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Go knock yourself out. Eric Corbett 03:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I wish I could find something cheery to say, but I'm fresh out of Pollyannaisms. I did have to look up a word from these discussions today, which reminded me of "What's a willie", if that will make you smile. Was it more fun then, or was I just more stupid? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It was more fun then, hardly any fun at all now. Eric Corbett 04:22, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I did think so. I wish I could make it better, and writing articles could be as much fun as it once was. It's not for not having tried ... but, well, mean people seriously suck. Or suck green hairy donkey balls, as Moni woulda said. I wish I could say that meanies never win; they may not in real life, where there are social norms and such, but in here, they are in their element and have the advantage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:33, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course it was more fun then. It stopped being fun when social norms like WP:CIVIL, WP:BITE, and WP:NPA were thrown away. Because in any society, systematic abuse of fellow-citizens changes the way that people interact. -- 101.119.15.116 (talk) 05:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

So you violate 3RR and no penalty is issued. Do you have some kind inside connection that I'm missing here? Normally people get a block for this behavior. Meanwhile, the unqualified term "slut" remains in the article without necessary qualification. I guess this sort of underhanded sexism flies when you know the right people? :bloodofox: (talk) 05:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Bloodofox, what you appear to be missing is that your actions were wanting in this case - you should have taken your proposed edit to talk when it was reverted, rather than edit-warring (which you were doing, even if you did not technically breach 3RR). Given your lack of discussion and the problems with your report, there would have been no outcome in which Eric was blocked and you were not. Unfounded accusations of sexism are more likely to have the opposite effect, in fact. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Violation of 3RR is violation of 3RR, and this user could have engaged on the talk page at any time. He didn't even bother to put text in some of his revert summaries. If anyone is "edit warring", it's this guy. As for the semantics of "slut" and its use in an unqualified state, that's going to need to go to the talk page, and the article itself is going to need a neutrality tag in the mean time. I suggest that you find more noble targets to defend. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Slut is just a word and like any word, it's the context in which it's used that's important, not the word itself. And the context the article provides isn't pejorative. Parrot of Doom 11:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Parrot, I guess you don't have any background sociolinguistics. Anyway, this is going to the talk rather than to attract the personal circle of this apparently unblock able user. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Blood, you seem to be missing the point: if Eric had been blocked, you would have been blocked too, by the same reasoning, as you edit warred. Now, if you really want to be blocked because you insisted on introducing quotes where they weren't needed ... that seems like a silly thing to be blocked over, but whatever. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Sandy, don't worry, your pal seems to be well covered by users like you, whatever his actions may be. Unfortunately the project suffers from users and clusters of well-entrenched alliances of very active users like this. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Facepalm ... Bloodofox, I see a number of issues here. Firstly, the article in question, Malkin Tower, has been protected, which means the disruption to the encyclopedia has now stopped and there is no requirement to block anybody. Secondly, Eric helped get the article through FAC, which means if you want to make large scale changes to it, it's considered polite to go to the talk page first and discuss it, given it should have had a thorough community discussion over its content to pass. Thirdly, on top of just going through the FA process, it's also reasonably well known that Eric is a subject expert on the Salem Witch Trials and related subjects, and if you run ramshod into editing an article relating to that topic and not attempt to at least understand his point of view, it's pretty much a given that he's going to tell you to fuck off. With a bit of forethought, you really ought to have seen that one coming, I'm afraid. Ritchie333 15:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Random comment -- oh, now I understand where Harry Potter buys his school clothes.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand that a user's talk page is generally just a good way to attract his Wiki-friends, but this demands some response. First, the user clearly has no background in linguistics, which is what we're discussing here. Second, you have no idea what his academic qualifications are; writing some Misplaced Pages articles hardly qualifies one as an "expert". Further, the FA process hardly results in vetting out all minor errors; they get fixed all the time the moment they hit the main page. In other words, none of those observations were helpful for this discussion. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The problem is, and Paul Graham's "How to disagree" explains it well, is that "the user clearly has no background in linguistics" can be construed as just as much a personal attack as any amount of four letter words. The issue of contention here is simple - is "slut" an appropriate term to use. My answer would be, what words do The Pendle Witches (3rd ed.) express on the pages cited? If the word "slut" appears, it is properly cited within WP:WIAFA and can stay. If it doesn't, you can tag it as {{verification failed}} or put the correct word in from the source, annotating what you found. Or, even better, you could unearth another source that not only provides an alternative translation of the term "Malkin" but also provides further evidence of the 2011 excavation near Lower Black Moss reservoir being the potential site of the tower. I can assure you I'm not particularly wiki-friends with Eric at all, I'm just a pragmatic realist giving you some constructive advice of how to extract yourself from this situation. Ritchie333 15:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't expect to see you at this talk page again Bloodofox. Anything else you post here will be deleted unread. Eric Corbett 15:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You know I'm not a fan of civility blocks, plus I'm invoooolved as your good pal (which I'll take as a compliment if out of this particular context). Let it go (I'm trying to); perhaps he'll dig deep enough for a civility cop to throw an NPA warning or a block into that hole, though I don't have high hopes for it. Also, I'm sorry for disagreeing with you, of course, if I am. But I'd like to think I have a reason for my consideration, and before there is consensus I'm not going to go around adding needlessly to the history of an article that so many people have spent so much valuable time on. Drmies (talk) 18:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Bloodofox is simply yet another of those ignorant PITAs who believe the civility policy only applies to others, not to themselves. Eric Corbett 18:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Unnecessary. If you continue on this path, it's been demonstrated that nothing will change, but it will make it harder for all of us to get any kind of reform to stop the abusive admins. Other people can deal with Bloodofox (and are), who seems to not be able to understand that he was spared a block. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Nothing will change whatever I do, nothing ever does here, we all know that. Eric Corbett 18:59, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you've already checked his contributions to user talk pages, as I just did. Parrot of Doom 20:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I did. If I'd done what he's done I'm quite certain I'd have been blocked again by now. Eric Corbett 20:03, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I think I made a good point on the article's talk page, one which he's refusing to answer. Which makes me agree with you; he's an idiot. Parrot of Doom 20:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

That he's been allowed to get away this says all that we need to know. Eric Corbett 20:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

How come you can call him an idiot, but I can't call the insufferable little prick an insufferable little prick? I've lost count of the number of times I've been called a dick on here, but of course that's OK, because there's an essay. I really would like someone to explain to me why there's no equivalent WP:CUNT essay. Eric Corbett 22:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Well we all know the answer, but in this case I imagine it's purely because I spoke to you, whereas you spoke to him. Parrot of Doom 23:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You may well be right. What a curious distinction. Eric Corbett 23:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Well you do appear to have a lot of "friends" around here, or so I'm led to believe. Perhaps that has something to do with it... Parrot of Doom 23:56, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Herbert Read

I didn't know he was a supporter of Wilhelm Reich (an excellent GA by SlimVirgin). Do you listen to Kate Bush? Drmies (talk) 16:27, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I do occasionally, but I'm more of a fan of Joni Mitchell. Not so keen on Kate's theatrical bits. Wilhelm Reich was quite simply crazy in my estimation. Eric Corbett 18:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh, totally crazy, no doubt, at least the last few decades of his life. But the Bush video is from the young son's perspective, and shows love and respect. Wouldn't have figured you for a Joni Mitchell fan; I have a soft spot in my heart for Wild Things Run Fast, which I listened to at that formative time period. Neil Young mentions her quite a few times in his recent autobiography, which I just finished. SHIT! I just plucked a roly-poly from my neck--my neck! You should really take better care of this talk page, Eric. Too much varmin. Drmies (talk) 18:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I was rather incensed when I was visiting Nevada, and a singer in a local restaurant where we were having dinner introduced his version of a Joni Mitchell song by saying "She's kinda hard to look at, but ...". He was no oil painting himself. Eric Corbett 18:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Blocked .

I have blocked you for 24 hours for this edit. DrKiernan (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

What a surprise. Are you going to deal with the insufferable little prick? Eric Corbett 20:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile, no sanction is imposed on a user who's repeatedly called Eric's integrity into question. Parrot of Doom 20:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I seem to have been unblocked, but the block on DrKiernan ought to have stuck IMO. He's exactly the kind of admin that chases editors away. Rather revealing to see an administrator with a block log like this. Eric Corbett 20:46, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm not part of the cabal. DrKiernan (talk) 20:53, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

What cabal? What did you hope to achieve by this stunt? Eric Corbett 20:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The anti-content editor set. Reform. DrKiernan (talk) 20:57, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Reform of what? Eric Corbett 21:01, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

• Eric, you're unblocked, as I'm sure you noticed. I suppose I can understand why some admins would block for that little phrase (and of course I wish you hadn't said it), but I can only hope that those admins start seeing incivility for what it really is. Oh, wait, I'm Eric's "good pal" so I must be wrong. Ah well. I have to go and make Frito Pie and take a young woman to a swim meet and then eat hamburgers. Perhaps my desysop is already in the mail. DrKiernan, just one more thing: if I really believed in civility blocks, and this hadn't involved Eric but someone else, and I saw the edit-warring, the careless edits in a front-page-featured FA (one of which reinstating vandalism), the refusal to take matters up on a talk page, the denial that an article having gone through the GA and FA process means something for its quality, the baiting and passive-aggressive ad hominems on the editor's own talk page and on the article talk page long after they were kindly requested to refrain from such commentary, the constant and childish requests to ask just about everyone whether they're a friend of someone as if that invalidates their work--to repeat, if I saw such extraordinary uncivil and uninformed behavior and I believed in civility blocks, as you seem to do, then I would have blocked that editor, yes. But I don't, or maybe I don't have the balls to do it. I urge you to burn your little Checklist of Bad Words. Have a nice day everyone, Drmies (talk) 21:08, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

  I'm going to ponder on this latest block; I may be gone some time. Eric Corbett 21:12, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

  I've pondered, and what I've decided is that if Misplaced Pages thinks it doesn't need me then I certainly don't need it. Eric Corbett 01:00, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Need? No, benefit from...absolutely.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I think everyone should push back from their screen for a few days, and wait to talk about this. I, for one, am exhausted from the insufferability, as I imagine everyone is. We are no more going to come up with rational solutions to these dilemmas in a hurry than we need to immediately solve one quotation mark in an article. I need you to copyedit, Eric, but I don't enjoy all this agida; the world is full of idiots and we've got to be able to live with them. Why can't everyone just leave this alone for a few days? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll come back in a few days and see if sanity has prevailed. But I predict that it won't, and admins such as DrKiernan will still be running riot. Eric Corbett 01:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

You are not the only one who is living with an unjust block log. Buck up, and for gosh sakes, sit on your fingers for once when so many others are already trying to deal with the issue(s). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

If Eric leaves there will be a huge void. There is no doubt about that. There are few editors that have the abilities he has...but this is a matter for him to decide and....looking at the entire current issue...there appears to be some common ground. But no one can actually tell Erich what to do....well maybe there are a few that he listens to more than others, but I know I am not one of them.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Bad theatre like this will repeat ad nauseam until the community acknowledges the obvious. The core problems have little to do with Eric/Malleus. He is merely the fashionable focus for baiters. The core problem is a comical admin structure which operates over a thousand loose cannon admins, many appointed for life years ago when school boys only had to ask. There is no centralised control, so there will always be the Frams, Scottywongs and DrKiernans waiting in the wings with fingers twitching on the block button, eager for their time in the sun. What is happening now will continue recycling endlessly as it shreds Misplaced Pages to pieces, unless we start operating a more responsible admin system. The discipline of productive content editors needs to be overseen by a centralised panel of admins especially appointed for that purpose. There is no need for run of the mill admins to have that particular block button. --Epipelagic (talk) 02:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Sure...but even in bad theatre there are leading roles and the chorus. Everyone can't be in a leading role and if you are in the chorus...just be happy to be a part of the production.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• That wasn't very useful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Well....then ignore it. I am sure you have the ability to ignore those you don't agree with or find "Useful". The statement is rather accurate in many ways. Eric is a leading role. Others are in the chorus but have no appreciation of even being in the "production". But...why worry about it...it wasn't meant for you to find use for anyway. It is simply my expression of these events. Besides...I don't see you in the "credits" ;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

• Good work, Eric, just four more blocks and you can trade them in for a $25 gift card. Unfortunately, they will kill you on the exchange rate. You can always opt for the commemorative plaque.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

  I accept payments by PayPal, so I'll go for the $25. Eric Corbett 04:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

ANI Notice

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

How you've not been blocked already is a complete mystery. Or it would be if I was foolish enough to believe that WP values honesty and integrity. Eric Corbett 23:11, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk About It

Alright, Corbett, but if you want to actually talk about article issues, you can just use my talk page. It doesn't always have to be an aggressive exchange. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:04, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I really don't have anything to say to you. Shouldn't you be in bed by now anyway? Do your parents know you're still up? Eric Corbett 00:09, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you implying that I am somewhere where it's dark? Or that I have parents anymore at all? You don't always have to be so aggressive. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record, here's a prime example of an editor posting on Eric's talk page just to poke a stick at a bear. Let's see what, if anything, is done about this, shall we? Parrot of Doom 00:13, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

We all know nothing will happen, but I actually like Bloodofox's spirit. One day we might even be friends. Eric Corbett 00:17, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

At least he got a stern talking to or blocked for uncivilly posting on your talk page after you requested that he not do that. 71.11.1.203 (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

All this drama has kind of drawn me back in a little. I may just start editing a perfectly disgusting article soon. Parrot of Doom 00:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Can't wait to see it. Eric Corbett 00:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Joseph Grimaldi

Hi Eric hope all is well and your not letting recent events get you down. I wondered if I could ask a favour; could you take a look at my (hopefully) upcoming TFA nomination's blurb and check that it's ok? It can be found here should you be interested. Gerda has put the logged version away somewhere and I'm buggered if I can find it! I will cut and paste the updated version into the nomination once it goes live. Many thanks! --Cassianto 19:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

There's my suggestion, do with it as you will. Eric Corbett 20:36, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks good. Thank you --Cassianto 20:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Still xxxxall

I noticed you scrabbling about on the Inchcape rocks again. If island fever is troubling you I can recommend a splendid cure. Monro's Description could do with a copy edit by someone with a smattering of English and Scots prior to an attempt at FL - and if that doesn't cure you, nothing will. Ben MacDui 19:37, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm scrabbling about with Southey's poem really, yet to get back to the rock. Eric Corbett 22:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Islands, poetry, it's still rock and roll to me. Ben MacDui 09:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

That's quite a piece of work MacDui. Eric Corbett 22:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I had a lot of help of course, especially from the amazing, multi-lingual Akerbeltz. I like a good mystery and it was quite an exercise, beginning with the Auld version and various attempts by modern authors to interpret their own patch. It was only when I got hold of a copy R. W. Munro that it started to fall into place. Many thanks for your help. Ben MacDui 09:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Interesting...

I'd never heard the term "wife-rent" used. Merchet I'd heard of. Here. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I've never heard of the term wife-rent either, interesting indeed. But if we were to write something on that I despair of the wallies who'd want to add something on Wife-rent in Somalia, Wife-rent in Zambia ... Eric Corbett 03:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

The Thatchers with the Reagans standing at the North Portico 1988

The image entitled, "The Thatchers with the Reagans standing at the North Portico of the White House before a state dinner, 16 November 1988" lacks a reference. 88.104.29.216 (talk) 19:02, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

It does indeed, but so what? Eric Corbett 19:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I thought that |verifiability was an important part of Misplaced Pages, I'm surprised you dismiss it with "so what". Just because it is a picture caption makes no difference at all. 88.104.20.198 (talk) 04:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

If you want to know the provenance of the image then click on it and have a look. Eric Corbett 11:21, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

4 Hamilton Place

I passed this through Articles for Creation earlier today, and it looks in a bit of a sorry state. Can anyone here help clean it up a bit? Ritchie333 18:51, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Needs quite a bit of work. Eric Corbett 19:06, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I know you like a challenge ;-) Ritchie333 19:18, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Taiko

Hi Eric. Can't say I've done very much content work in terms of getting articles to GA (and never bothered trying to get one to FA yet), but I'd like to start with the one above. It's currently going through a GAN, but I wanted to ask if you had any suggestions for making it better. I've worked a lot on this one, but I think it has a long way to go. I, JethroBT 03:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

BTW, this horrendously long "other references" list is something that was there before I started editing the article, and I figured I'd keep it there because it might be useful for readers (and for future improvements). I, JethroBT 03:46, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

That's the kind of article I hate. Taiko in Brazil, taiko in Australia ... hopeless really. Eric Corbett 03:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see a different organization to the article that better integrates those sections someplace else. I'll see what I can do. Anyway, thanks. I, JethroBT 03:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Margaret Thatcher

You know, I really don't care about that cn tag. I was only doing it for the edit requester. But I do think that, after I stuck my head over the parapet for you over the not-a-wikipedian nonsense (, ), you might have tried to be gracious. You can have your uncited sentence by all means. I'll stick my head over other parapets, for sure; it's something I do. Just probably not for you. Ciao, --Stfg (talk) 16:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Didn't you apply any logic or common sense to the requests for citation? Why should I be gracious when you consort with an anonymous editor to basically vandalise the article? Eric Corbett 17:03, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Not only did I apply those, I explained it there. Of course, if the only way you can find to prop up your posture of omniscient superiority is to issue glib put-downs that make not the slightest attempt to address what was said, then those with insights that differ from your own can't expect you to be gracious. <shrug> It's one way to grasp for ownership, I suppose. --Stfg (talk) 17:43, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

As it happens I somewhat agree with what you've said about, for instance, observance in New Zealand, but you've banging this drum for far too long now. Eric Corbett 18:26, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Concealed shoes

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Concealed shoes you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Midnightblueowl -- Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:44, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd forgotten all about that. Eric Corbett 17:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks also for finally convincing me that the GA process is utterly hopeless. Eric Corbett 17:22, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Wells Cathedral

I've put Wells Cathedral up for a peer review in the hope of pushing it towards a FA nomination. If you or any of your talk page stalkers would be kind enough to take a look that would be great.— Rod 16:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Reviewing isn't something I'm likely to be spending any more time on in the future. Eric Corbett 17:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Concealed shoes

The article Concealed shoes you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Concealed shoes for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Midnightblueowl -- Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Date ranges

Greetings. I noticed that you made this edit (and many others like it) with the sarcastic edit summary "ever read the MoS?" I was wondering if you could point me to where in the MoS it says that a fully specified date range (e.g. 1945–1965) is discouraged. I want to make sure I'm doing it right in the future. All the best, – Quadell 20:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you take the trouble to read the fucking MoS? Eric Corbett 20:20, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your format fixes and legitimate contributions, but your rudeness and general incivility are unacceptable on Misplaced Pages. – Quadell 20:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

If ever I feel in need of your opinion then I'll be sure to rattle your cage. Eric Corbett 20:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

No need to be so snippy in this instance, it was a legitimate question since the main page of the MOS doesn't specify it. Quadell, the line in question is A closing CE or AD year is normally written with two digits (1881–86) unless it is in a different century from that of the opening year, in which case the full closing year is given (1881–1986). For clarity, years with fewer than four digits may be written in full (355–372). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.236.11 (talk) 20:47, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of many things

I admire those of you who continue to battle against the stupidity of "anyone can edit", but I'm afraid I'm no longer among you. I really do feel that now it's better to allow WP to sink under the weight of its own incompetent governance. Eric Corbett 21:13, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

From someone no doubt participating in and contributing to the "stupidity", could you clarify if is this another retirement or something different? Since the "governance" seems irrelevant, I'm not sure why editors improving articles couldn't just carry on regardless. Or is it just that sometimes you want to tell people to fuck off without rebuke? Just an honest question or two.... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:28, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll continue to do as I please, as I always have. Eric Corbett 21:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

That goes without question. I just wondered what this section was about, it seems startlingly similar to other "do as you please, I'll do as I please" sections. What's different? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you don't really care, but have you looked at the recent nonsense around articles such as Guy Fawkes Night and Margaret Thatcher? Eric Corbett 21:40, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure I do care, but I have far more pressing matters in real life. I've tried to keep up with things but not everything, obviously. In any case, as you've said, you'll do as you wish regardless. I'll finally find some time in due course to catch up but it'll be too late, probably, for this episode. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Work it out for yourself. I won't be back here until some serious changes are made. Eric Corbett 22:02, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Guessing those "serious changes" happened? Point me to them if you get a fraction of a second. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I've got a better idea. Why don't you just fuck off? Eric Corbett 21:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure, not a problem, I'd be honoured to do so. I'll take the wolf and tears with me. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:13, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be finding it rather difficult to fuck off. Eric Corbett 00:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Rules

Rules are for guidance, you said, but where you said so, "guidance" is probably also not known. I spoke about teh rulez just before, and the witch ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Talking of rules

Talking of rules, someone drew my attention to this amusing little grammar quiz and it made me think of you, I was disappointed to only score 84% - especially as I think its American and I wanted to be better at grammar than they are. Interestingly I came unstuck on the bit about apostrophes and year's/years' - I really never knew that before; did you?  Giano  17:23, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I did know that, yes, so 100% for me. Eric Corbett 18:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Me too, but you'd never know it when I start writing. J3Mrs (talk) 18:34, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

My other stumbling block which has always baffled me, is when to use 'that' and when to use 'which', can you put it onto simple language for me? Oh yeah and do commas go inside or outside speech marks?  Giano  19:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You use which when you could drop the clause it introduces without changing the sense of the sentence. As in "My car, which needs servicing, is a Jaguar". As compared to "My car is the one that is red". I never put commas inside speech marks, but some people do if the comma itself ends the quotation. I think that's a silly notion though. Eric Corbett 19:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

To elaborate a bit, @Giano: “which” in the first example above is what’s termed a non-defining relative pronoun, while “that” in the second is defining—compare with the indefinite and definite articles (“I drive a rattly car” / “I drive the red car”). Which is frequently used in the latter case as well; this is grammatically unexceptionable, but Fowler and others recommend avoiding it because of the potential ambiguity between defining and non-defining senses, which can sometimes only be distinguished by the absence or presence of a comma. OTOH it‘s never right to use that to head a non-defining clause.—Odysseus1479 03:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Eric, while we are on the subject of punctuation, which is your preferred way of writing the following..."In November 2013 Bloggs bought an Austin Healey 3000..." or "In November 2013, Bloggs bought an Austin Healey 3000...". It is a comma that has confused me for a long time. Some use it, others don't. Any thoughts? --Cassianto 19:44, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The first, but I'm led to believe that American schoolkids are incorrectly taught the latter. Something to do with a silly rule that there should be a comma after every subordinate clause, a bit like the equally silly rule that sentences ought not to start with a conjunction. I've long thought that the American government ought to impose a tax on commas. Eric Corbett 20:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps they think they own it like the moon ;) --Cassianto 20:26, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

We like commas. Commas create clarity. Commas are safe. In the USA, a phrase like "the panda eats, shoots, and leaves" requires many, many commas lest we be accused of being soft on gun ownership by the NRA.  ;-) But, I will freely begin a sentence with a conjunction, though I am frequently criticized for doing so. And yes, we are taught this from elementary school through college. UK and US English differences are not confined to the silly way YouPeople spell things with too many letters and the weird terms you have for things like the hood and the trunk of a car ... :-P Montanabw 05:13, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I was always taught (admitedly by a Sicilian who pronounce 'th' as 'da', that one never puts a comma before 'and' is that correct. I always do now, but onlybecause so many other people do and I'm a flocking animal.  Giano  08:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Well if you're a flocking animal, flock knows what I am. Nortonius (talk) 09:37, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

@Giano. Your Sicilian teacher was wrong. Just think of the now well known Eats, shoots, and leaves. Eric Corbett 15:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Like most priest he was wromg on a number of levels! However, if one were to say "they went into the garden and fornnicated" would one have a comma before the and or not? I would say not.  Giano  16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Depends. If they fornicated in the garden then no, but if they went into the garden and then fornicated potentially elsewhere, i.e, the two events are essentially unrelated, then yes. Eric Corbett 17:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

(watching) makes sense! (never did so far) - Ping for Chéreau, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Most confusing. I shall continue as I always do - write it and then sprinkle the odd bit of punctuation on the top.  Giano  17:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Without the comma you're saying that they went out and fornicated in the garden. With the comma, you're listing the things they did: they went out into the garden and they fornicated, not necessarily in the garden and not even necessarily in that order. Eric Corbett 19:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• I see, so they might "have gone into the garden, admired the flowers, watered the lawn, and then went into the summer house, which was heated, and fornicated."  Giano  22:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

  Quite. At least that's my take on it. Eric Corbett 22:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Your question

Hi Eric, last night you asked a question. I don't know who is demiurge1000, but I know something about him. He's one of the nastiest users one could come across on Misplaced Pages, and he has something of a sadist in him. On Misplaced Pages his greatest interest is corporal punishment, and all other articles about school punishments. He's the second top contributor to corporal punishment. As a matter of fact Demiurge1000 used to have this user box at his user page. The user box was made by his special request. He also likes to mentor young boys-editors, and sometimes his "mentoring" is taking place off-Wiki and against the wishes of the parents. Another example that could help one to understand who is Demiurge1000: a few months ago a plane crashed in San Francisco. It was a horrible disaster, with three teenaged girls killed, and dozens were badly hurt. What a normal person would say, when he/she is told about such disaster? Now let's see what Demiurge1000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) says: http://wikipedialogs.com/logs/wikipedia-en2013-07-06.txt

• Jul 06 15:07:57 <Slopabottomus> Asiana Airlines Boing 777 crashes while landing at San Fransisco Airport

  Jul 06 15:08:16 <Demiurge1000> Would be more dramatic if it was a Dreamliner 50.143.131.96 (talk) 15:28, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I've had my own unpleasant experiences with Demiurge1000, as I'm sure have many others. Eric Corbett 15:42, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Grammar advice "however" and "proven"-v-"proved"

Wells Cathedral is currently undergoing a very helpful peer review at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Wells Cathedral/archive1 (prior to a possible FA nomination). The reviewer has questioned the use of "however" in the sentence "Theories explaining their construction at these secular cathedrals range from processional to aesthetic; none, however, are proven." (and also suggested the use of "proven" may be controversial). Could you (or any of your talk page stalkers) suggest a better wording to avoid these issues?— Rod 09:17, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I would think an unproven theory remains a theory, as opposed to a fact? Parrot of Doom 11:07, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I share the view of Karl Popper that theories can never be proven, only disproven, so I'd simply drop the last part of the sentence after the semicolon. The semicolon is incorrect anyway, as what follows ought to be a complete sentence. And to take an even more strictly Popperian stand I'd suggest that theory is questionable as theories have to make testable predictions, so I'd probably say these are ideas rather than theories. Which would leave us with something like "Explanations for their construction at these secular cathedrals range from processional to aesthetic". Eric Corbett 14:56, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - I've used your suggested wording. Also thank for sorting the possessive apostrophe. Would you have any thoughts on the query about the volunary choir "spending the first two sentences in the singular and then becomes plural for the rest of the para" as spotted by the reviewer.— Rod 15:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll take a look at that later, got to pop out now. Eric Corbett 15:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm, that's a trickier one. The Vicars Choral on the face of it looks it should be considered a plural, but that leads to the sort of nonsense seen in almost every article on a pop group, such as "The group continue to play live on a regular basis ...". In what universe is group a plural noun? Also, if Vicars Choral is considered a plural then so should Wells Cathedral Voluntary Choir, but "The Wells Cathedral Voluntary Choir are a mixed adult choir of thirty members" just looks ridiculous to me. On balance I'd rewrite wherever possible to avoid the singular/plural distinction, and where that's not possible go for a consistent singular. Which I've had a go at doing, so see what you think. Eric Corbett 19:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I think all the edits you are doing are great. As you know my knowledge of grammar is limited and I'd willingly go with your changes. When looking again at the first paragraph of the Cathedral Choir section I did notice two occurrences of "since" very close together on the first line and "alternately" on the third - but I have no idea how to improve them.— Rod 20:09, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

My knowledge of grammar is probably no better than yours, I just go by how the language feels to me. Eric Corbett 20:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Many collective nouns can be construed as either singular or plural. From Fowler, under NUMBER: “Such words as army may stand either for a single entity or for the individuals who compose it, and are called nouns of multitude. They are treated as singular or plural at discretion—and sometimes, naturally, without discretion. The Cabinet is divided is better, because in the order of thought a whole must precede division; and The Cabinet are agreed is better, because it takes two or more to agree. That is a delicate distinction f the decision whether a noun of multitude is to be treated as a singular or as a plural is often a difficult business, and when ill made results at worst in a venial blemish, failure to abide by the choice when made, and plunging about between it and they, have and has, its and their, and the like, can only be called insults to the reader.“ Burchfield says, “In BrE it is in order to use either a plural verb or a singular verb after most collective nouns, so long as attendant pronouns are made to follow suit By contrast, in AmE the choice is much more restricted. For such words the following verb and any attendant pronouns are usually in the singular.“

The article says, “The Vicars Choral and the choristers generally perform together except on Wednesdays, when singing alone the Vicars Choral have the opportunity to present a different repertoire.” Here I would write “has” rather than “have“, as ISTM the Choral would be a single entity with respect to its repertoire—but I may be biased because plural collectives are nearly as rare in CanE as they are in AmE. More importantly, I note that this is a run-on sentence: the comma should be replaced by a colon, semicolon or full stop.—Odysseus1479 20:21, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

They can indeed, but that changes the meaning. For instance, a family may be considered either singular or plural depending on whether we're talking about the family itself or the members of the family. In this case of the choir though I think it's clear we're talking about the singular choir, not its members. I agree with you about have vs. has in this case, I just missed that. Eric Corbett 20:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me from their website that "Vicars" is a plural noun and "Choral" an adjective, rather than "Choral" being a noun (wouldn't it be Chorale?) and "Vicars" a descriptor of some sort (which would need an apostrophe perhaps). So it has to be "... singing alone the Vicars Choral have the opportunity ...". PamD 23:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't seem like that to me, for instance "The body of Vicars Choral has been in existence since the 1100s. Eric Corbett 23:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

In that example the grammatical subject is “The body“. That said, while I agree with Pam’s analysis, I’m not sure it requires plural agreement, being something of a fossilized term. It could go either way, but my instinct is to follow the underlying sense in preference to the outward form.—Odysseus1479 00:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Your argument doesn't work. To continue the quotation it says "The body of Vicars Choral has been in existence since the 1100s, singing the daily round of divine services in the Cathedral in place of the canons. Initially they lodged among the townsfolk rather than on Cathedral grounds. So the singular body has been in existence since the 1100s, but initially they lodged in the town? Eric Corbett 00:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm not in charge of the cathedral's web site. Eric Corbett 01:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, lost the plot for a moment: read “… if the passage appeared in an article, I’d recommend ….”—Odysseus1479 02:43, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I think Today there are nine Vicars Choral and three Choral Scholars (their website) shows that the Vicars are individual people. PamD 10:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

And the OED (ah the joys of UK public libraries' online services!) defines "vicar choral" under "Choral (adj)" as b. choral vicar, vicar choral: ‘one of the officers of a cathedral whose duty it is to sing that portion of the music of the services which can be performed by laymen or men in minor orders. In some of the old cathedrals they formed a corporation, often jointly with the priest vicars. In many cathedrals the vicars choral were formerly in priests' orders’., and also lists it under "Vicar" where it says The pl. occurs in various forms, as vicars choral, †vicars chorals, and, rarely, vicar chorals.. PamD 10:10, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

That raises the additional question in my mind whether Vicars Choral ought to be capitalised in the article. If it is, then clearly it's a collective singular noun like the name of a band, and if it isn't it's referring to the members of the choir rather than the choir itself. Eric Corbett 14:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Policies in Scotland

Hi Eric, I wonder if I could impose on you to give me a note of the definition you found for 'policies' (house and policies) as used in Scotland? I seem to be stumbling on a number of instances when parkland, acreage etc. just doesn't feel right. Every other draft I'm working on at present seems to include it, so I could probably use a fairly standard note in them all. Maybe it's just because it's a term I'm familiar with but I hadn't realised it wasn't in common usage! SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

From the OED: "The enclosed (and often ornamental) grounds, park, or demesne land surrounding a large country house." Eric Corbett 15:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow! That was mega fast - thank you, it's very much appreciated, especially as I've just typed 'and policies' into a draft article! SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:31, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

But they (or estate agents anyway) seem to use it for large gardens surrounding not very large country or suburban houses also. Johnbod (talk) 02:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Estate agents say all sorts of things. I think I'd prefer to go with what the OED says. Eric Corbett 02:15, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

A beer for you!

Talk:Edinburgh#RfC:_Content_of_the_Lead

Posting this here as alot of people who lurk here (a) write and copyedit content about (b) towns and cities, and (c) may have some interest in Scotland. Rather than get in an edit war, I hope people will offer opinions at Talk:Edinburgh#RfC:_Content_of_the_Lead...and I don't mind/care/give a toss if people tell me I'm pissing up the wrong tree....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Punctuation question

"The newspaper asked "why should the law in this species of offence inflict a severer punishment upon a woman, than upon a man"." - the quoted material doesn't use a question mark, but the sentence, as I've constructed it, seems to demand one. So would you replace the full stop with a question mark, or leave it as is? Parrot of Doom 23:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't change the punctuation of the quotation, but you could alter your sentence slightly to put the punctuation outside the quote, as in "The newspaper asked "why should the law in this species of offence inflict a severer punishment upon a woman, than upon a man"? Eric Corbett 01:49, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's what I've done. Parrot of Doom 12:04, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you have, in any of your sources on witches, anything I could use to put to bed the suggestion that many witches were burnt at the stake? AFAIK the reality is that this only happened in Scotland, and rarely. Parrot of Doom 16:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Any reputable history of heresy trials will include this fact as an aside—try the Historical Dictionary of Stuart England if you just want a quick-fix citation. The matter is complicated by the fact that a number of witches were burned after execution (to prevent resurrection and necromancy; in places where the vampire tradition is stronger, this tradition survived until very recently and possibly to the present day), and thus reports can legitimately say "she was sentenced to be burned and the sentence was carried out" or "500 suspected witches were burned" without actually meaning execution by burning.

The National Museum of Scotland has an excellent and dispassionate section on Scottish witch-trials, and could probably point you in the right direction to sources on the Scottish aspect. Given the crowd-pleasing status the subject currently has, I imagine they'd be delighted to help with something that would increase knowledge that the NMoS is more than Bonnie Prince Charlie's snuff-box and the handwritten lyrics to the Proclaimers' Scotland's Story.* – iridescent 2 17:08, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

*Before someone accuses me of stereotyping, both these items are on prominent permanent display.

(edit conflict) Where are we talking about? Even in Scotland the victims were invariably either hanged or garrotted before their corpses were burned, although I suppose there might have been a few cases where they weren't, or weren't quite dead when they were thrown on the fire, as in the case of one of the Paisley witches. Eric Corbett 17:12, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Just England right now (limiting the scope of this discussion to Britain). I've found instances of women in England being burnt alive before 1656 (excepting one accidental burning alive after then). But it appears that in Scotland, witches were burnt alive well into the 18th century. It's just that I've read here and there that the burning of witches in England is a common misconception, and I wanted to find out if there was any truth to that and if so, if it deserved mention. Parrot of Doom 17:24, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

There were relatively few witches executed in England compared to other parts of the world, fewer than 500 between the early 15th and early 18th centuries, and I don't know of any that were burned alive; the penalty in England was hanging, as it wasn't witchcraft itself that was the crime but causing harm by witchcraft, very often murder or attempted murder, so the sentence was the same as for a murderer. How about this for a source:

In England the legal method of executing a witch was by hanging; after death the body was burnt and the ashes scattered. In Scotland, as a rule, the witch was strangled at the stake and the body burned.

Murray, Margaret Alice, Witch Cult in Western Europe: A Study in Anthropology, 2003, Kessinger Publishing, 9780766144552, p. 17.

Eric Corbett 17:58, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

PS. Burning witches at the stake happened quite commonly on the Continent of course, but not here. Eric Corbett 18:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. My understanding is that women were burnt only for treason (high and petty), presumably then witchcraft was never treasonous? Perhaps I'm looking at this from the wrong angle; perhaps the burning of witches in England is an urban myth that should be paid no attention? Parrot of Doom 18:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Causing harm by witchcraft was a crime like any other, not treasonous. Except I suppose if it could be "proved" that the king had been in some way harmed by witchcraft. But even the North Berwick witches, who were accused of raising storms against the fleet accompanying King James VI back from Denmark to Scotland with his new wife, were strangled before being burned. England actually had a relatively relaxed attitude towards so-called witches, except for temporary aberrations such as Matthew Hopkins, and unlike Scotland even forbade them to be interrogated under torture. Eric Corbett 18:15, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

If you've got reliable sources claiming that witches were burned in England then it might be good to debunk that in your article. I'm only thinking about the inevitable talk page discussions on "why haven't you included the burning of witches?" Eric Corbett 19:07, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

It's one of those subjects like Resurrectionism, where I'm having to effectively create a new article using multiple sources that each discuss different facets. There's no single book that covers the whole issue. Most sources are concerned with punishment in general, and owing to the much greater incidence of executed men, what material I can find on women is somewhat scant. The best sources I have, Gatrell and Devereaux, are an exception, but I admit I've only just started and there are probably more detailed books out there. Writing about the abolition of burning is easy, but writing about when burning started, how it developed (particularly through Mary's reign) and what exactly went on when women were burned, is much more difficult. I shall soldier on. Parrot of Doom 19:30, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Reminds me of another common misconception, that all witches were women. But men were also charged with causing harm by witchcraft, and in fact two of the Pendle witches were male. Eric Corbett 19:37, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Based on this conversation, I've made this change. A reminder, if anything, of how much rubbish there is on this site, and how important it is to patrol the decent articles. Parrot of Doom 20:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't have to look very far to find rubbish on here. It would indeed have been a sad state of affairs if everyone accused of witchcraft was burned at the stake. In reality, at least in England, most people accused were acquitted. Eric Corbett 23:38, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

This is a great article, thought I, as I searched to find the main contributor so as I could ask him for help with this. Is there anything you haven't edited on here? Parrot of Doom 14:18, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you remember that old football song? "He's here, he's there, he's every fucking where ". Eric Corbett 15:48, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I also remember "The referee's a... The referee's a...", which given recent events is probably more appropriate :) Oddly enough I'm filming in Sheffield tomorrow for Soccer AM, so will be shooting at least one football chant. Parrot of Doom 15:57, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

One of my favourites. Football chants are rather interesting I think. I wonder if WP has the usual tedious stub on them? Eric Corbett 22:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Many referees certainly would benefit from a visit to Specsavers an optician (no promo allowed). Of course WP has a piss-poor chants article. Such things are in close competition with completely unverifiable stuff but at least there is some hope. I'd be astonished if there have not been academics who have made pronouncements regarding football chants and might see what I can turn up on JSTOR. I know that sociology is often derided as an academic discipline but, if nothing else, there'll be some history in there. And on the subject of history, what do you think of my overblown phrasing at William Beach Thomas? I've had a facsimile of all issues of the Wipers Times gathering dust on my bookshelf for several years and have finally got round to reading it - those guys were funny! - Sitush (talk) 00:55, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

thought for the day

we seem to have a link to WP:CHILDPROTECT ... I wonder if WP:AdultProtect will ever be a blue link. Just idle thoughts. — ChedZILLA 10:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

We certainly need one. I've been arguing for a "Don't be a cunt" essay to match the "Don't be a dick" one currently linked to from WP:CIVILITY. But of course there's no chance of that, even though there are far more cunts here than there are dicks. Eric Corbett 18:26, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Eric, there's time we both go beyond the pale. Personally? At this point in life I couldn't care less. Free knowledge is great, and I love the project - but the crap that's coming into it? .... Fuck that. You are an amazing writer, and even if you get hammered with the "be nice" shit - it doesn't diminish what you've done. Don't hate the kids that are trying ... we were young and bold years ago too. Thank you for what you have given. I personally do greatly appreciate it. — ChedZILLA 18:51, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I do go beyond the pale, but clearly some others do. Those sensitive flowers would do well do avoid to avoid knocking on my door. There's this meme that people on the Internet say things they wouldn't say to your face, but that's never been been my view. Although to be honest I haven't called anyone in real life a dishonest lying cunt in over four weeks now, so maybe I'm getting a bit soft in my dotage. Eric Corbett 19:00, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

In the USA, we often are allowed to just pull out our favorite semi-automatic weaponry; we who resist and control the urge to open fire usually find that a useful side effect is we also learn to minimize our use of four letter obscenities. (Except in film and television, where we store them!) I generally only say shit, fuck and damn on your page, Mr. Corbett! (LOL) :-P Well, damn might appear elsewhere... and, with a Yankee fondness for indirect speech and clever euphemism, I am free with acronyms such as WTF, BOHICA or  ! Montanabw 03:23, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring. Thank you.

Oooh, I'm so scared! Eric Corbett 01:15, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Eric. Happy Holidays. I suggest you remove your last talk page comment. It's not appropriate or constructive. Candleabracadabra (talk) 02:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• Aw, come on Eric, please don't do that. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:13, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• I agree. We need to be careful for fear of what that sort of comment may lead to. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

  I can't keep up with all these complaints about what I say, far too many of them. But I think those complaining ought to spend a little time listening to their to their consciensces, if they have one. Eric Corbett 02:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• Frankly I suspect that those that complaining have little conscience.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:43, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

  I suspect you're right. Eric Corbett 02:50, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• Click the link in my edit, if you didn't already. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
• I did take a peek. We all have a tendency to take ourselves far too seriously. Eric Corbett 03:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• I looked as well and don't understand the point of using a humor link. I didn't find it funny in this instance Brad.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:12, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

  You have to remember that I'm just a piece of easily replaceable shit. Eric Corbett 03:19, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

What I understand is that Brad's link could well be seen as a threat from an arbcom member. That is what I took from the exchange. The only thing is, Brad uses humor a great deal to defuse situations. Thank god (or the deity of your choice) I understand that or I would swear Brad just threatened your life. But I don't actually think that, just that others might. We should be far more careful how we attempt to use humor. Some won't find it as funny.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• I thought it completely apt, and hilarious. It's the Onion, for pete's sake! Montanabw 21:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Um, for the record, I was not threatening anyone's life. I don't think anyone could reasonably have inferred that I was, but I apologize if I am wrong about that. (Editing Misplaced Pages brings something new every day; I am fairly sure this is the first time the concepts of "Newyorkbrad" and "threatened someone's life" have been conjoined on-wiki.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• Me too. SCOMN! (Snorted coffee out my nose). Montanabw 21:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course you weren't. I said as much Brad...but that sort of humor is easily mistaken, that is the point. Don't you think you crossed some sort of line here. I do, but it is short of anything to worry about. You were just using humor to point out that copy editor's lives were threatened. Perhaps you will think about that the next time you use the Oniion in this fashion. My guess is you were more insulted by my comments than you were concerned about your own actions. But then humor is such a subjective thing...isn't it?--Mark Miller (talk) 03:54, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to take up any more of Eric's talkpage with what was meant as a silly throwaway comment, but I'd be interested in whether anyone else shares your concern about this. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I took it as a "silly throwaway comment", nothing more. Eric Corbett 04:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I took it as an attempt to defuse the usual drama with snark and humor (humour). I wholeheartedly approve! Montanabw 21:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

circumstances (like "fuck off") when they are merely used a colourful way of saying "buzz off". The automatic use of a list of word to block someone means that us admins are not doing our jobs carefully enough, since we could be simply replaced with robots if that is the kind of way we operate in this case. Think "Turing Test".  DDStretch  (talk) 04:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

(e/c*2) I have read the comments on the relevant talk page. But for the fact that he or she has already stopped, I would have thought a short block for making threats about reporting you and blocks from your complainant, Eric, could have been in order. I think you need to know things like this.  DDStretch  (talk) 04:02, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Some third/fourth opinions there would be good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Done.  DDStretch  (talk) 04:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll just say that you (Brad) were clearly using humor (again, as I have stated). However, you should know that others are stalking Eric's page.. You made no indication that you meant this as humor. What you did was state that: " We need to be careful for fear of what that sort of comment may lead to." and linked to an article that stated as the headline: "4 Copy Editors Killed In Ongoing AP Style, Chicago Manual Gang Violence". That seems to have crossed a line Brad, whether you think it is a throw away comment or not.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

But the important part is that Eric saw it as a throw away comment. If he feels that way there is little more to discuss. But I would still suggest far more caution when linking the Onion with articles about dead editors.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:25, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

But Brad just lost my support for Arbcom elections. Period. (not that that matters in any interpretation of this).--Mark Miller (talk) 04:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

But Brad isn't up for re-election, and I haven't taken offence at his humorous posting. What the Hell is going on here? Eric Corbett 05:35, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Just me complaining about what I saw as rather insensitive, but you get the humor and that is really all that matters. (I actually like Brad and was just taken aback from what I thought crossed a line, but crossing such a line is in the eye of the beholder).--Mark Miller (talk) 05:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad and I haven't always seen eye to eye, or even ever seen eye to eye, but I've always thought of him as trying to be fair. Eric Corbett 05:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd have to agree, which is why it seemed a little out of place, but then when one stops and thinks clearly, it isn't that far a cry from his official response to one of those arbcom cases that made me fall of my chair with laughter. I believe it was the Fuck off with the strike through. I get it...most of the time. ;-)--Mark Miller (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2013 (UTC)renrenttly

There are far bigger fish to fry, such as the anonymous priest calling me a git. Not something I'd be expecting any priest to do, but apparently it's OK here. Eric Corbett 06:11, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Apparently it's OK for me to be called a git, not at all uncivil. But if I call someone an idiot, or even sycophantic, I get blocked. Eric Corbett 14:30, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

It isn't all right, and I've made that point on the admin board thread, though been attacked for doing so.  DDStretch  (talk) 16:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Nobody in "authority" really cares is the truth. They're just interested in editor numbers. Eric Corbett 16:30, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• I think we need to restore the default "if you are not willing to then do not submit it language in the editing frame. Why did that ever get tossed, anyway? Montanabw 21:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• The content dispute seems to be resolved as far as I can tell per what appears to me to be a strong consensus on the article's talk page (and in discussion elsewhere including the edit war noticeboard page). Perhaps one of the kind admins here can remove the page protection so editors can resume work on the article? As it's being worked up for FA it seems there is a timing issue and some frustrations have been expressed regarding the protection issue. I think leaving a page protected for an extended time over this type of dispute can in fact be a kind of disruption and in this case there doesn't seem to me to be much of a remaining dispute? Numerous editors have weighed in. I wouldn't think more would be needed but I suppose an RFC could be conducted it the outcome isn't abundantly clear already? Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Seems suitable. Everyone, move along now? Montanabw 21:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't ever move when I know I'm right. I'm that well-known immovable object, which even the irresistible force can't move. Eric Corbett 21:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Another reason for everyone else to move along. Your lack of movement is beginning to remind me of Chuck Norris facts. Montanabw 02:55, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Survival strategies

A discussion on the talk page of Wells Cathedral has made it very clear to me that one needs to develop strategies for survival as an editor here on Misplaced Pages. Some choose to go down the "meek as a mouse" route (not really my style), trying never to upset anyone. Others form gangs on IRC in an effort to have their enemies blocked. Yet others create multiple sockpuppets to create the illusion that a particular editor is widely despised and should be ejected from the mythical community.

For myself, I'm considering only working on articles I've substantially created myself, or those I'm asked to help out with by those I trust. The others can go hang. Eric Corbett 16:46, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, and that was editing in the house of God too, which is supposed to sacred. Please don't blame Rod (who asked you) it's not his fault; the problem, as I know to my cost is when you start to edit a big, famous building, every tourist who has ever used its public loos think they are an expert on it.  Giano  16:57, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't blame Rodw, but there's a limit to the number of times one can be insulted (patronising git from a self-proclamed priest comes to mind) and still be interested in contributing. Eric Corbett 18:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking that I may return to FAC reviewing, as it seems to be pretty much the only way you can get editors to listen to reason. Eric Corbett 18:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

My dear, dear son, may I invite you to pray with me? I do hope you're not suggesting that their may be bogus priests on Misplaced Pages. Oh pray, do perish the thought. Let's have a cup of tea and then pop along to Benediction together and pray for the salvation of your poor, overtaxed soul. Rev Dr Augustus Deepthought (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I can't help but be reminded of the reverend User:Pastor Theo, who did a great job at impersonating a man of the cloth. But of course he's by no means the only one to have done that. Eric Corbett 20:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

And then there is that pathetic colonial female, User:Amandajm, one of the major contributors to the article, who, having thanked you for some previous edits, is now complaining of your bullying manner over a matter of preferred expression. Do we go with your minimal word "most" or her preferred "the majority of"?

Does it require sockpuppetry to deal with your bullying? Is that the usual method? Bill Paterson.

What a confusing username. Which is it, Amandajm or Bill Patterson? In reality I think that the faux priest Anglicanus ought to be investigated as being a sockpuppet of the ex-administrator Rodhullandemu, but that's separate story. Eric Corbett 01:54, 24 November 2013 (UTC)