| Revision as of 06:17, 1 January 2014 editLucia Black (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers17,382 edits →Dragon Ball (anime): expand.← Previous edit | Revision as of 06:26, 1 January 2014 edit undoChrisGualtieri (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers457,369 edits →Dragon Ball (anime): reNext edit → | ||
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| ::The RfC had everything to do with these two articles, it was why they were brought up in the first place. and for that reason, we have to re-look at these articles after the consensus of the RfC regardless of the consensus reached prior to the RfC. But we also have to consider that our case by case be consistent.] (]) 06:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | ::The RfC had everything to do with these two articles, it was why they were brought up in the first place. and for that reason, we have to re-look at these articles after the consensus of the RfC regardless of the consensus reached prior to the RfC. But we also have to consider that our case by case be consistent.] (]) 06:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ::: Lucia, you spit in my eye and you went back on your "friendship" to stab me in the back - you are not trustworthy and you are disruptive. I'll not be a party to this farce any longer. I'll filter your comments out so I don't need to see them anymore. For a full year you've done little else but make drama from "merge", "delete", "deletion campaign", "delete DBZ", "Delete DBZ", "Delete GITS", "Delete" "Delete" "Delete"... The RFC merge closed as keep less than a month ago. It stays and doing this with the people who supported its merging in the first place is disruptive. Those lists of episodes should be integrated into their articles. If you are going to make any discussion - make it on something that matters and not making up accusations of bad-faith and malice and "bold splits" to pages I have no intention of even touching. '''Lucia, your comments are no longer visible to me; so don't bother responding. I got real work to do.''' ] (]) 06:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ===Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)=== | ===Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)=== | ||
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RFC closed.
The RFC on franchise coverage has been closed. Here's the full summary of the closure.
| “ | I was going to close this yesterday, but I wanted to give this another read this morning to see if there was any fair way to move forward on how best to approach larger A&M-related articles in the usual case where adaptations follow a manga series. Editors were opposed to implementing either a hard-line "one-article per franchise" or a "one article for each adaptation" rule, which leaves us with consensus to make such splitting or consolidation decisions on a case-by-case basis. I'll note that most editors seem to be in agreement in that for most manga-to-adaptation franchises, a single article usually suffices.
The subsequent challenge was to determine the criteria by which such decisions could be made, or even considered. "Uniqueness" was a term used by some, which while a fair approach, could use some definition. A number of parameters were suggested: Prose size, anime series length, discussion of production for the adapation, the degree of novel content in the anime series compared to the manga, and others. Some of these parameters seem less helpful. For instance, the number of episodes alone seems unhelpful because the studio may simply have a ton of money to create numerous episodes, none of which are substantially novel (e.g. some may be filler/recap episodes). Some may be more instructive though-- differences in major story arcs (i.e. ones worth discussing per the Manual of Style and WP:PLOTSUM and/or significant coverage of the process and news about production of the adaptation.) There was reluctance from editors to agree to any specific metrics on any of these parameters, but I think some principles proposed here are soundly within policy and should be the focus of future discussions in this area:
In point #2, nontrivial is meant to refer to things like noncritical differences in plot, as described by many editors here. I realize this has long been a contentious topic area, and I hope this discussion will be helpful to better organize and present A&M content on Misplaced Pages for the sake of our readers. Editors are welcome to contact me on my talk page with questions or concerns about this close. I, JethroBT 20:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC) |
” |
I hope this summarizes the whole thing about franchise coverages here. If there are no objections we should edit WP:MOSANIME to reflect that change. Okay? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't object to this standard. But I hope there's no loopholes.Lucia Black (talk) 23:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
MOSAM cannot contain this as MOSAM is a manual of style, not a notability guideline. It should be listed on the Wikiproject page. The RFC before stated that MOSAM cannot contain such a guideline and the other discussions pointed to WP:POLICY as stating that a manual of style should be strictly a manual of style. Though I think the problem is resolved, the task comes to cleaning, organizing and preparing the data for the content building. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- But even if MOSAM is a manual of style, I think the closing summary and new consensus still stands regarding the demerging of articles, therefore the previous RFC consensus is moot and I think we should implement this change as soon as possible. My point on this here is that the two points bolded in the closing should be incorporated somewhere in the article as the points are within policy. Also, the consensus has been determined that "make such splitting or consolidation decisions on a case-by-case basis." If you have problems with the closure, please take it up with I JethroBT on how to present it. I think this RFC discussion has already been settled, therefore I think that the previous RFC is meaningless. I have no problems with mentioning the consensus anywhere. I personally think we should split articles on a case by case basis. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It is not the closure, but the simple fact that we've had 2 RFCs on the matter, including the VPP discussion and lengthy MOSAM discussions about notability being outside the purposes of that page - its the reason why the entire problem began in the first place. I think its entirely backwards to overturn a much more specific and clear cut decision for the purposes of making a manual of style hold notability related matters and not either place them into their own page as suggested prior or to place them on the Wikiproject's page. I'm happy that articles like Dragon Ball Z can exist without being repeated blank and redirected or dropped into userspace to bypass AFDing, despite WP:USERFY#NO. Don't confuse my response on its placement and usage as some disagreement about the end result - after all, it was more than I had hoped for and I am quite pleased by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I understand most of your points, Chris, and at least we finally got the dispute resolved when I JethroBT closed the RFC. I was a bit impressed by what he did. We came to some sort of an agreement on this one here. I personally oppose splitting articles if it's just a repetition of the plot and characters from their series, but I support a separate article if there are reliable sources and noncritical differences in the plot summaries.
- Here are a couple examples using the points that were in the RFC's closing summary: In some cases, if "a substantial amount of nontrivial and reliably-sourced content can be written about an adaptation that distinguishes it from its respective manga series, a separate article on the adaptation is recommended." That's what happened to Dragon Ball Z and Bleach (anime), for example. But in articles like Fullmetal Alchemist, Fairy Tail, and Naruto, for example, the adaptations are "a substantial reflection of the plot and characters of its respective manga series, it probably does not require a separate article." I hope this makes sense of what I'm talking about here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It is not the closure, but the simple fact that we've had 2 RFCs on the matter, including the VPP discussion and lengthy MOSAM discussions about notability being outside the purposes of that page - its the reason why the entire problem began in the first place. I think its entirely backwards to overturn a much more specific and clear cut decision for the purposes of making a manual of style hold notability related matters and not either place them into their own page as suggested prior or to place them on the Wikiproject's page. I'm happy that articles like Dragon Ball Z can exist without being repeated blank and redirected or dropped into userspace to bypass AFDing, despite WP:USERFY#NO. Don't confuse my response on its placement and usage as some disagreement about the end result - after all, it was more than I had hoped for and I am quite pleased by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually Bleach (anime) is still being disputed. And also bleach is no different from Naruto. Dragon Ball Z is an edge case because english-regions recognize Dragon Ball Z before Dragon Ball alltogether.Lucia Black (talk) 05:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- So a multi-billion dollar success is an edge case to you? Why do I even bother with this area... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Its an edge case because its success outweights the original. The series can't be divided normally like others where Dragon Ball would cover its manga and anime adaptations. The only reason why we contested to the split is because there's going to be confusion of how to handle the split. Does DBZ contain only the anime? Or the anime and second half of the manga? Its a difficult situation even now.
- Still @Sjones23:, the RfC was raised because of bold splits such as Bleach. So it would be great to analyze the series first, before saying it was well deserved. If Bleach deserves a split, then by default of more popular series, Naruto and One Piece aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed. I understand where you are coming from with your points and agree with your idea, Lucia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Still @Sjones23:, the RfC was raised because of bold splits such as Bleach. So it would be great to analyze the series first, before saying it was well deserved. If Bleach deserves a split, then by default of more popular series, Naruto and One Piece aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The International Best Comics Poll - The Hooded Utilitarian
The Hooded Utilitarian has hosted an international poll on the top 115 comics (arguably more American-centric, with a few manga) here
But what I found interesting was: whilst most of the critics just chose their own 10 best, some of the critics gave reasons to their choice: eg. Matt Thorn: partial contributor listing.
Finally, all the contributors had their credentials listed along with their top 10 lists, maybe we can find more individual RS resources from this massive list of critics. Extremepro (talk) 03:35, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Finnish site Animeleht.fi RS?
This Finnish site has reviews on it - but I'm not sure whether it can be considered RS. The main reason to question this site is that the publisher's website looks like a forum and this review, if proven RS, could be used to cite the publisher. Extremepro (talk) 06:53, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- The publisher's website has a forum. How is that related to proving RS? --Mika1h (talk) 11:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Bad wording - I meant if the Finnish review was proven RS, then I can use the review to cite that the book was licensed in Finland and would not have to cite the publisher's forum. Extremepro (talk) 11:58, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
New discussion
Just thought I'd let everybody know about this discussion I'm having, regarding Dragon Ball's continuity. Sarujo (talk) 07:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Post-RfC discussion and issues that need to be covered
So now that we decided to do so, we have a few articles that we need to consider or make an example of
- Dragon Ball (anime)
- Bleach (anime) which will be the outcome of the following articles:
This is a very serious issue, and i feel it wont die down, until we use the consensus of the RfC to use.Lucia Black (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Dragon Ball (anime)
Most of the information is made up entirely of DVD releases and the rest is easily mergable back. its not a strong split at all, even for the new standards that we have.Lucia Black (talk) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge If the only main things are DVD releases than it should be merged back, ignore personal opinions here and think of what would be a greater potential gain. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge into List of Dragon Ball episodes,
List of Dragon Ball Z episodes, and List of Dragon Ball GT episodes.Those are the central anime-focused articles with individual season articles available for details like the DVD releases. -AngusWOOF (talk) 19:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)- I think you misunderstand the scope of the article being discussed, as it only covers information on the first Dragon Ball TV series, and not Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball GT. There shouldn't be anything in the article that could be merged to List of Dragon Ball Z episodes and List of Dragon Ball GT episodes. Calathan (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- okay, striking out Z and GT which have their own articles anyway. I'm just thinking of those "List of (title) episodes" which seem to cover box sets and DVD volume bundles just like "List of (title) chapters" articles would cover omnibuses and tankobon/graphic novel volume details. -AngusWOOF (talk) 21:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand the scope of the article being discussed, as it only covers information on the first Dragon Ball TV series, and not Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball GT. There shouldn't be anything in the article that could be merged to List of Dragon Ball Z episodes and List of Dragon Ball GT episodes. Calathan (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Keep separate. The article currently covers a lot of information that seems beyond the scope of an episode list, including an overall plot summary, some production information, information on localization, and information on reception of the anime. That all seems like useful content, and does not seem to be something that would naturally go in an episode list. Calathan (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Calathan the plot can easily be re-written and the the some production information and information on localization can fit back into the main article. As for reception if it is for a franchise then it would make sense to place to place it all into one place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- But the current structure of having it unmerged is more useful, in my opinion. The plot section doesn't need to be rewritten, and the information on production and localization of the anime fits better in an anime specific article than in the main Dragon Ball article. The reception in the anime article is also just the reception of the anime, not for the franchise as a whole. Merging just doesn't create something better than what we have now. Calathan (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't really have a strong opinion either way as there is only going to be up to a point where these splits can be done. The splits will benefit some articles but not all of them and the percentage I do see being split are low given the reception of our scope in reliable sources (Unless someone here can translate Japanese and look for reliable sources there). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- But the current structure of having it unmerged is more useful, in my opinion. The plot section doesn't need to be rewritten, and the information on production and localization of the anime fits better in an anime specific article than in the main Dragon Ball article. The reception in the anime article is also just the reception of the anime, not for the franchise as a whole. Merging just doesn't create something better than what we have now. Calathan (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment the length of the article giving it subtle appearance of strong notability is due to the long listing. Also, reception, production, localization are very small. Also, plot isn't a main factor if its a direct adaptation.Lucia Black (talk) 20:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge per Knowledgekid87's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Uh. No. This is HIGHLY disruptive to keep doing this EVERY month. The last merge request was closed a month ago and that was after a deletion request which closed with it being kept. We are not rolling the dice every time. This is a waste of time and a bad-faith WP:GAME issue. Add to it and improve the anime page, merge the episode list TO the Dragon Ball page as suggested prior. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
We just had an RfC that relates to this. the reason we're doing this every month, is because you're boldly splitting these articles. Right now, you're trying to game the system by ignoring the RfC consensus.Lucia Black (talk) 05:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Talk:Dragon_Ball#Proposed_merge_with_Dragon_Ball_.28anime.29 closed as a clear consensus to not merge. You are WP:GAMEing the system and you are constantly doing this. Repeatedly. The RFC was a resounding success, but it has absolutely no impact on this particular matter. We've had 7 months of this. No more. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes it does, it was for the very reason that we put all AfD's on hold. in which the one who closed it, was unaware of it. Which is why we have to put the RfC consensus to use. saying it had no affect, is like saying it made no impact, which may i remind you that you are still against the consensus reached in RfC, so you're inconsistent.
- The RfC had everything to do with these two articles, it was why they were brought up in the first place. and for that reason, we have to re-look at these articles after the consensus of the RfC regardless of the consensus reached prior to the RfC. But we also have to consider that our case by case be consistent.Lucia Black (talk) 06:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Lucia, you spit in my eye and you went back on your "friendship" to stab me in the back - you are not trustworthy and you are disruptive. I'll not be a party to this farce any longer. I'll filter your comments out so I don't need to see them anymore. For a full year you've done little else but make drama from "merge", "delete", "deletion campaign", "delete DBZ", "Delete DBZ", "Delete GITS", "Delete" "Delete" "Delete"... The RFC merge closed as keep less than a month ago. It stays and doing this with the people who supported its merging in the first place is disruptive. Those lists of episodes should be integrated into their articles. If you are going to make any discussion - make it on something that matters and not making up accusations of bad-faith and malice and "bold splits" to pages I have no intention of even touching. Lucia, your comments are no longer visible to me; so don't bother responding. I got real work to do. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- The RfC had everything to do with these two articles, it was why they were brought up in the first place. and for that reason, we have to re-look at these articles after the consensus of the RfC regardless of the consensus reached prior to the RfC. But we also have to consider that our case by case be consistent.Lucia Black (talk) 06:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)
- Naruto is broken down into two anime series, Naruto the original series, and Naruto: Shippuden. The episode lists I feel would stay in place while the only other info that could be merged out looks to be again episode release information. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I ask because it falls close to both Dragon Ball/Z situation and Bleach for success.Lucia Black (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Comment - Stop trying to the game the system Lucia. I am sick of it. I'm not spending more than 10 minutes dealing with this. Misplaced Pages needs proper coverage and the more time spent talking (uselessly) the less good work could be done. We barely cover the most notable of all works. Here you are actually advocating the reduction and reducing of sourced content because its not "perfect". If you are not going to fix the problems than I'll go to Arbcom and ask for general sanctions on the entire editing space because I am not dealing with whatever made-up problem that pops into your head. Naruto and One Piece are not discussions and never have been - this is just drama. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- One Piece and Naruto never have been a discussion, because you never boldly split them. But, if Bleach anime merits its own article, then by default more popular series such as One piece and Naruto also fall in the same general area. We have to be consistent with the splitting, which is why i brought them in.
- Let me remind you, that this is due to the consensus of the RfC that put in place, and that RfC was due to your bold splits. So even though Dragon Ball (anime) had consensus to keep, it was before the more significant consensus of the RfC was reached. So there's no gaming the system, i'm simply putting the consensus of the RfC into action. Ignoring it, and act like if it never happened would be gaming the system.Lucia Black (talk) 07:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Stop making drama for the sake of drama. Do not make issues when there is none. No one's considering doing anything with those articles and I suggest that everyone not act like it has to be split or will be split because something else was. To put Lucia's argument to her classic response WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. For a New Year's resolution, I'm going to try and avoid the useless drama that made this year a wash in this space. I suggest everyone seek to avoid such useless drama as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please stop discussing here if you're not going to provide any useful insight. If you believe One Piece or Naruto are any different than Bleach, then you may say so, but at the moment, i don't see much difference. but WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST is being against or for an article being deleted based on another article. And here, i'm simply saying that if Bleach indeed does deserve a split, then by default so do Naruto and One Piece, but this is still based on reaching a consensus first. The only one talking about drama is you. There is nothing dramatic about the discussion. I'm simply trying to put the consensus of the RfC to the test. And its not like i'm trying to game the consensus, the consensus of previous RfC was inline with my perspective for the most part on how to deal with splits. So all i'm trying to do, is put the previous consensus to use. that's all.Lucia Black (talk) 07:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Unless YOU want to split them, this entire discussion is pointless. You have a serious lack of comprehension on even why Dragon Ball and Bleach splits should and were done. I've explained this half a dozen times to you. If you don't have a good reason to split those two articles, do not split them. Stop making drama, and working on making a theoretical-based consensus on "what ifs". And if you are planning on splitting them, now, my answer is a resounding NO. Now everyone, just go back to doing productive things. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please stop discussing here if you're not going to provide any useful insight. If you believe One Piece or Naruto are any different than Bleach, then you may say so, but at the moment, i don't see much difference. but WP:OTHERSTUFFEXIST is being against or for an article being deleted based on another article. And here, i'm simply saying that if Bleach indeed does deserve a split, then by default so do Naruto and One Piece, but this is still based on reaching a consensus first. The only one talking about drama is you. There is nothing dramatic about the discussion. I'm simply trying to put the consensus of the RfC to the test. And its not like i'm trying to game the consensus, the consensus of previous RfC was inline with my perspective for the most part on how to deal with splits. So all i'm trying to do, is put the previous consensus to use. that's all.Lucia Black (talk) 07:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Stop making drama for the sake of drama. Do not make issues when there is none. No one's considering doing anything with those articles and I suggest that everyone not act like it has to be split or will be split because something else was. To put Lucia's argument to her classic response WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. For a New Year's resolution, I'm going to try and avoid the useless drama that made this year a wash in this space. I suggest everyone seek to avoid such useless drama as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to split them, but its not about whether I want to split them.this is about what we consider split worthy with our new consensus. I'm not planning on splitting anything, the RfC was what. We should consider worthy of a split. We reached a consensus, now we have to determine here for the bold splts that you have done. However, if bleach merits a bleach, more popular series such as Naruto and One Piece do aswell. You've explained that certain ammount of original episodes merit a split.. well...naruto and one piecedo aswell.
Please stop calling everything drama, I'm not going to humor you anymore. I will collapse this entire discussion with you if you continue. If you don't find this productive, don't get involved.Lucia Black (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm kind of in agreement with ChrisGualtieri that this seems like an attempt to game the system by having the same discussion that previously occurred at AFD, but in a location that will draw less attention from people outside the wikiproject. I don't think the RFC resulted in any change that would override the AFD, as it basically decided that such articles should be kept or merged on a case by case basis. Also, I disagree with the notion that a decision on one series should apply to other series. I don't think, for instance, that a decision on Bleach should also apply to Naruto or One Piece (for one thing, the "filler" in One Piece generally seems less substantial than in Bleach or Naruto). Also, the main consideration in splitting things should be whether there is enough good sourced content to write a separate article, which isn't necessarily something that will be true for other series just because it is true for one series. Calathan (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see it as a way of gaming anything, I can very easily see big articles such as those being split up in the future and rather than waiting for that to happen we should use this as a test on how the RfC has gone before that happens and we get drawn into a mess. It is also very easy to turn this into an RfC if we reach a consensus here for outside input. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Gaming the system would be ignoring the RfC and keeping the consensus reached before we made the RfC (despite the RfC being brought up due to the bold splits anyways). which could be seen as WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, as previous RfC had more outside view and gave their bits on BLeach (anime) particularly.
- I don't see it as a way of gaming anything, I can very easily see big articles such as those being split up in the future and rather than waiting for that to happen we should use this as a test on how the RfC has gone before that happens and we get drawn into a mess. It is also very easy to turn this into an RfC if we reach a consensus here for outside input. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- You have to understand why we even had the RfC in the first place, to know why this discussion is needed.Lucia Black (talk) 21:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)