| Revision as of 16:02, 1 January 2014 editChrisGualtieri (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers457,369 edits →Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece): agreed with Huon← Previous edit | Revision as of 18:51, 1 January 2014 edit undoKnowledgekid87 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers96,754 edits →Dragon Ball (anime): ReNext edit → | ||
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| *'''Keep separate''' - the outcome of the RfC was to discuss separate franchises separately, and for ] we already have done so in November. That merger discussion took into account all those aspects that were mentioned in the RfC close, so nothing significant seems to have changed. Also, this discussion is extremely well-hidden, with no notifications at the source or target talk page or to the editors who discussed the issue two months ago. I don't think that's an appropriate method of discussing an individual article, much less of re-opening a discussion. ] (]) 13:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | *'''Keep separate''' - the outcome of the RfC was to discuss separate franchises separately, and for ] we already have done so in November. That merger discussion took into account all those aspects that were mentioned in the RfC close, so nothing significant seems to have changed. Also, this discussion is extremely well-hidden, with no notifications at the source or target talk page or to the editors who discussed the issue two months ago. I don't think that's an appropriate method of discussing an individual article, much less of re-opening a discussion. ] (]) 13:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Keep Separate''' - ] So it should not done and continuing to repetitively bring this issue up at a smaller venue, in a hidden way, is ]ing. Lucia's ] approach is disruptive here and further hiding of my responses and edit warring to keep them hidden is evidence of ]. Huon, Calathan and I all see that this is discussion actually goes against Sven's RFC and the RFC consensus on Dragon Ball's merger. ] (]) 15:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | *'''Keep Separate''' - ] So it should not done and continuing to repetitively bring this issue up at a smaller venue, in a hidden way, is ]ing. Lucia's ] approach is disruptive here and further hiding of my responses and edit warring to keep them hidden is evidence of ]. Huon, Calathan and I all see that this is discussion actually goes against Sven's RFC and the RFC consensus on Dragon Ball's merger. ] (]) 15:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | ||
| **I do not see any battleground behavior here, if you look at the comments it was you who threw the first jabs at Lucia venting on how this is pointless and ect.. if these really is a solid consensus against the merger why not just let the discussion die it's natural death? - ] (]) 18:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC) | |||
| ===Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)=== | ===Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)=== | ||
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RFC closed.
The RFC on franchise coverage has been closed. Here's the full summary of the closure.
| “ | I was going to close this yesterday, but I wanted to give this another read this morning to see if there was any fair way to move forward on how best to approach larger A&M-related articles in the usual case where adaptations follow a manga series. Editors were opposed to implementing either a hard-line "one-article per franchise" or a "one article for each adaptation" rule, which leaves us with consensus to make such splitting or consolidation decisions on a case-by-case basis. I'll note that most editors seem to be in agreement in that for most manga-to-adaptation franchises, a single article usually suffices.
The subsequent challenge was to determine the criteria by which such decisions could be made, or even considered. "Uniqueness" was a term used by some, which while a fair approach, could use some definition. A number of parameters were suggested: Prose size, anime series length, discussion of production for the adapation, the degree of novel content in the anime series compared to the manga, and others. Some of these parameters seem less helpful. For instance, the number of episodes alone seems unhelpful because the studio may simply have a ton of money to create numerous episodes, none of which are substantially novel (e.g. some may be filler/recap episodes). Some may be more instructive though-- differences in major story arcs (i.e. ones worth discussing per the Manual of Style and WP:PLOTSUM and/or significant coverage of the process and news about production of the adaptation.) There was reluctance from editors to agree to any specific metrics on any of these parameters, but I think some principles proposed here are soundly within policy and should be the focus of future discussions in this area:
In point #2, nontrivial is meant to refer to things like noncritical differences in plot, as described by many editors here. I realize this has long been a contentious topic area, and I hope this discussion will be helpful to better organize and present A&M content on Misplaced Pages for the sake of our readers. Editors are welcome to contact me on my talk page with questions or concerns about this close. I, JethroBT 20:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC) |
” |
I hope this summarizes the whole thing about franchise coverages here. If there are no objections we should edit WP:MOSANIME to reflect that change. Okay? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't object to this standard. But I hope there's no loopholes.Lucia Black (talk) 23:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
MOSAM cannot contain this as MOSAM is a manual of style, not a notability guideline. It should be listed on the Wikiproject page. The RFC before stated that MOSAM cannot contain such a guideline and the other discussions pointed to WP:POLICY as stating that a manual of style should be strictly a manual of style. Though I think the problem is resolved, the task comes to cleaning, organizing and preparing the data for the content building. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- But even if MOSAM is a manual of style, I think the closing summary and new consensus still stands regarding the demerging of articles, therefore the previous RFC consensus is moot and I think we should implement this change as soon as possible. My point on this here is that the two points bolded in the closing should be incorporated somewhere in the article as the points are within policy. Also, the consensus has been determined that "make such splitting or consolidation decisions on a case-by-case basis." If you have problems with the closure, please take it up with I JethroBT on how to present it. I think this RFC discussion has already been settled, therefore I think that the previous RFC is meaningless. I have no problems with mentioning the consensus anywhere. I personally think we should split articles on a case by case basis. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It is not the closure, but the simple fact that we've had 2 RFCs on the matter, including the VPP discussion and lengthy MOSAM discussions about notability being outside the purposes of that page - its the reason why the entire problem began in the first place. I think its entirely backwards to overturn a much more specific and clear cut decision for the purposes of making a manual of style hold notability related matters and not either place them into their own page as suggested prior or to place them on the Wikiproject's page. I'm happy that articles like Dragon Ball Z can exist without being repeated blank and redirected or dropped into userspace to bypass AFDing, despite WP:USERFY#NO. Don't confuse my response on its placement and usage as some disagreement about the end result - after all, it was more than I had hoped for and I am quite pleased by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I understand most of your points, Chris, and at least we finally got the dispute resolved when I JethroBT closed the RFC. I was a bit impressed by what he did. We came to some sort of an agreement on this one here. I personally oppose splitting articles if it's just a repetition of the plot and characters from their series, but I support a separate article if there are reliable sources and noncritical differences in the plot summaries.
- Here are a couple examples using the points that were in the RFC's closing summary: In some cases, if "a substantial amount of nontrivial and reliably-sourced content can be written about an adaptation that distinguishes it from its respective manga series, a separate article on the adaptation is recommended." That's what happened to Dragon Ball Z and Bleach (anime), for example. But in articles like Fullmetal Alchemist, Fairy Tail, and Naruto, for example, the adaptations are "a substantial reflection of the plot and characters of its respective manga series, it probably does not require a separate article." I hope this makes sense of what I'm talking about here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It is not the closure, but the simple fact that we've had 2 RFCs on the matter, including the VPP discussion and lengthy MOSAM discussions about notability being outside the purposes of that page - its the reason why the entire problem began in the first place. I think its entirely backwards to overturn a much more specific and clear cut decision for the purposes of making a manual of style hold notability related matters and not either place them into their own page as suggested prior or to place them on the Wikiproject's page. I'm happy that articles like Dragon Ball Z can exist without being repeated blank and redirected or dropped into userspace to bypass AFDing, despite WP:USERFY#NO. Don't confuse my response on its placement and usage as some disagreement about the end result - after all, it was more than I had hoped for and I am quite pleased by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually Bleach (anime) is still being disputed. And also bleach is no different from Naruto. Dragon Ball Z is an edge case because english-regions recognize Dragon Ball Z before Dragon Ball alltogether.Lucia Black (talk) 05:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- So a multi-billion dollar success is an edge case to you? Why do I even bother with this area... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Its an edge case because its success outweights the original. The series can't be divided normally like others where Dragon Ball would cover its manga and anime adaptations. The only reason why we contested to the split is because there's going to be confusion of how to handle the split. Does DBZ contain only the anime? Or the anime and second half of the manga? Its a difficult situation even now.
- Still @Sjones23:, the RfC was raised because of bold splits such as Bleach. So it would be great to analyze the series first, before saying it was well deserved. If Bleach deserves a split, then by default of more popular series, Naruto and One Piece aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed. I understand where you are coming from with your points and agree with your idea, Lucia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Still @Sjones23:, the RfC was raised because of bold splits such as Bleach. So it would be great to analyze the series first, before saying it was well deserved. If Bleach deserves a split, then by default of more popular series, Naruto and One Piece aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The International Best Comics Poll - The Hooded Utilitarian
The Hooded Utilitarian has hosted an international poll on the top 115 comics (arguably more American-centric, with a few manga) here
But what I found interesting was: whilst most of the critics just chose their own 10 best, some of the critics gave reasons to their choice: eg. Matt Thorn: partial contributor listing.
Finally, all the contributors had their credentials listed along with their top 10 lists, maybe we can find more individual RS resources from this massive list of critics. Extremepro (talk) 03:35, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Finnish site Animeleht.fi RS?
This Finnish site has reviews on it - but I'm not sure whether it can be considered RS. The main reason to question this site is that the publisher's website looks like a forum and this review, if proven RS, could be used to cite the publisher. Extremepro (talk) 06:53, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- The publisher's website has a forum. How is that related to proving RS? --Mika1h (talk) 11:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Bad wording - I meant if the Finnish review was proven RS, then I can use the review to cite that the book was licensed in Finland and would not have to cite the publisher's forum. Extremepro (talk) 11:58, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
New discussion
Just thought I'd let everybody know about this discussion I'm having, regarding Dragon Ball's continuity. Sarujo (talk) 07:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Post-RfC discussion and issues that need to be covered
So now that we decided to do so, we have a few articles that we need to consider or make an example of
- Dragon Ball (anime)
- Bleach (anime) which will be the outcome of the following articles:
This is a very serious issue, and i feel it wont die down, until we use the consensus of the RfC to use.Lucia Black (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Dragon Ball (anime)
Most of the information is made up entirely of DVD releases and the rest is easily mergable back. its not a strong split at all, even for the new standards that we have.Lucia Black (talk) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge If the only main things are DVD releases than it should be merged back, ignore personal opinions here and think of what would be a greater potential gain. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge into List of Dragon Ball episodes,
List of Dragon Ball Z episodes, and List of Dragon Ball GT episodes.Those are the central anime-focused articles with individual season articles available for details like the DVD releases. -AngusWOOF (talk) 19:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)- I think you misunderstand the scope of the article being discussed, as it only covers information on the first Dragon Ball TV series, and not Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball GT. There shouldn't be anything in the article that could be merged to List of Dragon Ball Z episodes and List of Dragon Ball GT episodes. Calathan (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- okay, striking out Z and GT which have their own articles anyway. I'm just thinking of those "List of (title) episodes" which seem to cover box sets and DVD volume bundles just like "List of (title) chapters" articles would cover omnibuses and tankobon/graphic novel volume details. -AngusWOOF (talk) 21:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand the scope of the article being discussed, as it only covers information on the first Dragon Ball TV series, and not Dragon Ball Z or Dragon Ball GT. There shouldn't be anything in the article that could be merged to List of Dragon Ball Z episodes and List of Dragon Ball GT episodes. Calathan (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Keep separate. The article currently covers a lot of information that seems beyond the scope of an episode list, including an overall plot summary, some production information, information on localization, and information on reception of the anime. That all seems like useful content, and does not seem to be something that would naturally go in an episode list. Calathan (talk) 20:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Calathan the plot can easily be re-written and the the some production information and information on localization can fit back into the main article. As for reception if it is for a franchise then it would make sense to place to place it all into one place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- But the current structure of having it unmerged is more useful, in my opinion. The plot section doesn't need to be rewritten, and the information on production and localization of the anime fits better in an anime specific article than in the main Dragon Ball article. The reception in the anime article is also just the reception of the anime, not for the franchise as a whole. Merging just doesn't create something better than what we have now. Calathan (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't really have a strong opinion either way as there is only going to be up to a point where these splits can be done. The splits will benefit some articles but not all of them and the percentage I do see being split are low given the reception of our scope in reliable sources (Unless someone here can translate Japanese and look for reliable sources there). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- But the current structure of having it unmerged is more useful, in my opinion. The plot section doesn't need to be rewritten, and the information on production and localization of the anime fits better in an anime specific article than in the main Dragon Ball article. The reception in the anime article is also just the reception of the anime, not for the franchise as a whole. Merging just doesn't create something better than what we have now. Calathan (talk) 21:50, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment the length of the article giving it subtle appearance of strong notability is due to the long listing. Also, reception, production, localization are very small. Also, plot isn't a main factor if its a direct adaptation.Lucia Black (talk) 20:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge per Knowledgekid87's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
| Pointless arguing |
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Uh. No. This is HIGHLY disruptive to keep doing this EVERY month. The last merge request was closed a month ago and that was after a deletion request which closed with it being kept. We are not rolling the dice every time. This is a waste of time and a bad-faith WP:GAME issue. Add to it and improve the anime page, merge the episode list TO the Dragon Ball page as suggested prior. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC) We just had an RfC that relates to this. the reason we're doing this every month, is because you're boldly splitting these articles. Right now, you're trying to game the system by ignoring the RfC consensus.Lucia Black (talk) 05:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
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Keep separate Dragon Ball (anime) from Dragon Ball, however Merge List of Dragon Ball episodes into Dragon Ball (anime) - this will work really well with the multi-colour saga-table. Extremepro (talk) 11:38, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Comment with 9 seasons, i highly doubt that can be arranged. It seems like it'll lose focus of the article anyways. Plus, the general format is to make less unnecessary articles by splitting off the main episode list, in order to have clean yet concise articles. I dont agree it will work well with the multi-color saga table because the list is far too long.Lucia Black (talk) 11:48, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep separate - the outcome of the RfC was to discuss separate franchises separately, and for Dragonball (anime) we already have done so in November. That merger discussion took into account all those aspects that were mentioned in the RfC close, so nothing significant seems to have changed. Also, this discussion is extremely well-hidden, with no notifications at the source or target talk page or to the editors who discussed the issue two months ago. I don't think that's an appropriate method of discussing an individual article, much less of re-opening a discussion. Huon (talk) 13:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Separate - Last month the merge RFC closed as a clear consensus to not merge. So it should not done and continuing to repetitively bring this issue up at a smaller venue, in a hidden way, is WP:GAMEing. Lucia's WP:BATTLEGROUND approach is disruptive here and further hiding of my responses and edit warring to keep them hidden is evidence of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Huon, Calathan and I all see that this is discussion actually goes against Sven's RFC and the RFC consensus on Dragon Ball's merger. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- I do not see any battleground behavior here, if you look at the comments it was you who threw the first jabs at Lucia venting on how this is pointless and ect.. if these really is a solid consensus against the merger why not just let the discussion die it's natural death? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)
- Naruto is broken down into two anime series, Naruto the original series, and Naruto: Shippuden. The episode lists I feel would stay in place while the only other info that could be merged out looks to be again episode release information. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I ask because it falls close to both Dragon Ball/Z situation and Bleach for success.Lucia Black (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
| Pointless arguing |
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Comment - Stop trying to the game the system Lucia. I am sick of it. I'm not spending more than 10 minutes dealing with this. Misplaced Pages needs proper coverage and the more time spent talking (uselessly) the less good work could be done. We barely cover the most notable of all works. Here you are actually advocating the reduction and reducing of sourced content because its not "perfect". If you are not going to fix the problems than I'll go to Arbcom and ask for general sanctions on the entire editing space because I am not dealing with whatever made-up problem that pops into your head. Naruto and One Piece are not discussions and never have been - this is just drama. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to split them, but its not about whether I want to split them.this is about what we consider split worthy with our new consensus. I'm not planning on splitting anything, the RfC was what. We should consider worthy of a split. We reached a consensus, now we have to determine here for the bold splts that you have done. However, if bleach merits a bleach, more popular series such as Naruto and One Piece do aswell. You've explained that certain ammount of original episodes merit a split.. well...naruto and one piecedo aswell. Please stop calling everything drama, I'm not going to humor you anymore. I will collapse this entire discussion with you if you continue. If you don't find this productive, don't get involved.Lucia Black (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
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I want to note that Fullmetal Alchemist has been split. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 10:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- this is a serious issue that has to be taken care of with a much larger audience. unfortunately, if one person fails a GA for whatever subjective reason, no one will be inclined to bleieve that GAR was nuetral. either way...this is getting bit tiresome.Lucia Black (talk) 11:07, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - bundling discussions in this way goes against the RfC, which found that different franchises should be discussed on a case-by-case basis. "We do it once, thus we have to do it always" was explicitly rejected. Huon (talk) 13:24, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Precisely. That is why this hypothetical discussion on "what-if" and non-issue to decide to split in the future or prevent it is disruptive and useless. Lucia's goal is to find out whether or not it should be split and form a consensus PRIOR to anyone actually wanting to split. This is simply disruptive because no one actually wants to split the articles, the RFC said it must be on a case-by-case basis and make a non-issue into a consensus. Until someone actually wants to split the article this discussion should not happen. Even salted pages are re-created providing the issues have been resolved, there is no ultimate "split or delete" for any article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:02, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
Clarification of Template:Infobox animanga/Video and Pita-Ten
The producer template for Template:Infobox animanga/Video should be listing the producing companies right (製作)? Raamin at Pita-Ten is arguing it is episode producers (演出), which vary per episode and which he has added onto the infobox based on individual episodes. If we follow his reasoning, there would be 50+ producers at Case Closed (The producers in the infobox is wrong right now). The thing is, these individual producers are usually not noteworthy enough to add. The staff list for the first Code Geass lists both producers Link 1. The second Code Geass only lists the company link 2. If something is decided on, I will edit the document for the template to clarify which producer we should add for infoboxes. Also, there is a debate on how broadcast stations should be presented in the template at Pita-Ten if anyone could lend their opinions. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 11:13, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
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