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Earthquakes C‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Earthquakes, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of earthquakes, seismology, plate tectonics, and related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EarthquakesWikipedia:WikiProject EarthquakesTemplate:WikiProject EarthquakesWikiProject Earthquakes C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11

/Archive 1 contains discussions pertinent to the old version (last revised 20 June 2012) prior to restructuring.

Current status

The article is currently filled out to approximately what I had envisioned. A few more predictions could be included, but they are only marginally notable, and I don't see their absence as significant. A LOT of methods could be added, as there are scores of them, likely a couple of hundred, that have been looked at, but that would heavily unbalance the article. As to selected representative methods, there were a couple of others I was going to include, but I ran out of time (due to the distractions raised here). At any rate, I believe the article is currently in good shape. I am also requesting a seismologist to review the article to see if there are any problems in regard of the science. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

A seismologist has been reviewing this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.228.0 (talk) 03:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Who? You?

Please note: one of the most basic bits of competency expected at Misplaced Pages is how to sign your edits. This is done by adding the "four tildes" (e.g.: ~~~~) at the end of each edit. This will be automatically replaced with your signature and a timestamp. Of course, it would be much easier to learn of such matters, as well as to engage in any discussion, if you would register for an account. Which you are strongly urged to do. As otherwise you come across as some drive-by spammer, an irresponsible punk who doesn't have a clue as to adult behavior. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Special note to the would-be editor: the article has been "protected" (locked). This does not mean your contributions are unwanted; quite the contrary. It is intended to quash this edit warring. And perhaps to get your attention, and hopefully to get you to engage in the process here. I suspect you quite likely are a seismologist (AGU?), and therefore would dearly love to team up with you. But it should be a team effort, not just you treating this like your personal blog. And again I urge you to register for an account. You are also welcome to send me e-mail if you would like to discuss any of this off-line. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Tone?

Regarding your recent edit removing the scope sentence from the end of the lede for "wrong tone": sorry, I don't how that sentence violated WP:TONE, or was otherwise unhelpful. That research papers also include scoping statements seems irrelevant (so what?). They also use citations; should WP therefore dispense with citations? Per WP:BRD I will be reverting. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

My main objection is the phrase "This article will examine." The remainder of the sentence, which is just a summary of the article's major parts, is fine and even desirable, but "This article will examine" should be changed to avoid the self-referential wording. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so not a problem with "tone" (and we can dispense with that?), but possibly self-referential. I want to study that a bit before commenting. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I misspoke. I am indeed referring to it being self-referential. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:35, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I am persuaded that the sentence is indeed self-referential, but on studying WP:SELF I now see that what is disallowed is not self-reference per se, but only certain kinds. And I believe that scope statements (as we have here) are — or at least should be — allowed, but I would agree that the text is not clear. So I have asked there for clarification. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:34, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Doug: in this edit summary you say this should be discussed at WP:LEAD. That page does not cover this particular question, and I don't see that it has ever been discussed there. I queried at WP:SELF because that is the specific basis KoH cited for his objection. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Merely difficult? Or inherently impossible?

Doug, your revisions to the last section distort what the sources say. The issue is NOT "Problems with predicting earthquakes", but whether such predictions are even possible ("inherently impossible"). To reduce the topic to "problems with" implies possibility, which is to give only one side of a significant debate.

Your phrasing of "Earthquake prediction may have failed..." is ambiguous because the "may have" could apply to "failed" rather than the following "because", suggesting that prediction may have (generally) not failed. This is misleading.

I grant you that MOS says no questions in headers. I don't know if any exceptions are allowed; it does pose a challenge because the issue is inherently in the form of a question. How do you propose to handle that? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to see the section heading reworded although I think being impossible is a type of problem. I don't see the word 'problems' as ruling out the possible impossibility of a task, if you follow me. Maybe 'Issues'? Dougweller (talk) 08:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I think I understand what you are saying, but respectfully disagree. "Problem" (as well as "issue") carries a connotation of solvability. Impossibility does not mean difficult. It means not a chance, that there is simply no solution whatsoever. Sort of like the impossibility of perpetual motion: is that a small problem of getting rid of the last tiny bit of friction? Or is it a small problem that all of known physics is against you? Getting back to the issue at hand, some seismologists affirmatively state that earthquake prediction is inherently impossible. But the issue has been neutrally defined in the form of a question. And I have not (yet?) come up with a non-interrogative equivalent. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Doug: I have raised the issue at WT:Manual of Style#Questions in headers?, and so far the advice is leaning towards "no questions" being a general guideline that admits of exceptions. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:12, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see this section start off with examples of successful prediction (for example, the 1975 earthquake in China, and the updated VAN method, with their Springer book, among others) and a discussion of what the flaws are in each. For the 1975 quake, while there was a medium-range prediction, and a successful evacuation because of increased seismicity, there was no short-range prediction. The officials had to basically guess. For the updated VAN method, they are essentially issuing medium-range predictions based on SES, and then looking for short-range predictions. They've switched their short-range prediction protocol at least twice. If the real difficulty is in short-range prediction, then that provides a good seque for writing about earthquake mechanisms, and how the exact process of earthquake initiation is still unknown. A treatment like this would inspire readers to look for answers and be good for science. The focus on a lack of predictability is a bit like saying, "We'll never get to the moon" as far as I can tell. Is there a distinction between "we haven't done it yet," and "it's impossible to do?" Earthquake catalogs are always incomplete, because Gutenberg-Richter scaling implies an infinitely many very small seismic events will never be included. We only have a statistic of the data, and never the complete data population. Is the impossibility of prediction simply based on this? If so, that ought to be made explicit.Daniel Helman (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

See Also: 1975 Haicheng Earthquake

The 1975 Haicheng earthquake is the only earthquake where an evacuation was successfully undertaken prior to an earthquake based on prediction/administrative decisions. Someone who is scanning through the article may not note that this earthquake stands out for this reason. Putting a link to the 1975 Haicheng Earthquake page in the "See Also" section serves two purposes: (1) It provides a more complete set of links for someone who hasn't read the article, but is looking for resources related to earthquake prediction, and (2) allows this earthquake to stand out. Please consider putting this link back into the "See Also" section. (I understand that the article would then link to the Haicheng page twice, and I think there is precedence for this based on other wikipedia pages.)Daniel Helman (talk) 02:12, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The manual of style says "As a general rule the 'See also' section should not repeat links which appear in the article's body". I think that as this earthquake has its own section in the article, there's no reason to have it in the 'See also' section as well. I've also removed two other links to articles already linked in the body of this article. Mikenorton (talk) 11:27, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

  Yes. The question is not whether there should be a link, but where it should be placed. Putting the link at the point where the topic is discussed seems more appropriate than splitting it off and putting it at the end, and this is consistent with other links in the article.

  Mike: I would beg to differ regarding NEPEC. It is mentioned, and wiki-linked, several times in the article, but does not have its own section or {{further}} link. And as it relates to the topic as a whole, and is a quite reasonable direction for the interested reader to continue, I think it really ought to be at the end of the article. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 17:43, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

It does say "as a general rule", so it's possible to make exceptions and I won't fight its reintroduction to the 'See also' section. Mikenorton (talk)

A borderline case then. I am going to lean towards inclusion, for the reason stated. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Gravitational effects/syzygy, etc.

Daniel: I seriously question your addition of the "gravitational effects" (which is really just about "syzygy"). In the first place, there at least twenty phenomena that have been scientifically investigated, and the article just can't cover all of them. (It is quite large just as it is.) So it is necessary to restrict discussion to a few representative examples. And I think this particular phenomena is not scientifically significant. (A quick review of hits on Google Scholar seems to show it has been repeatedly disconfirmed.) It is notable only for what's his name pushing "syzygy" in pseudo-scientific fringe. So I am proposing it be removed. (I take a strong line here lest the article slip back into a collection of personal favorites.)

I also point out small blemish on the rest of your fine citation work: the accompanying reference is defective in the use of the |author= parameter. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:46, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe making a new page of these twenty-plus phenomena with a link would be in order? Regarding the citation -- can you give me more detail on how to fix the |author= parameter? Finally, the novelty in the method I've linked to is in using the second derivative of the earth's rotational momentum as the significant critical factor in forecasting -- and this hasn't been discredited -- at least not yet! Warm Regards.Daniel Helman (talk) 19:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I just looked -- and you have taken the gravitational effects section out. I think it might be good to add it back, while emphasizing that syzygy is discredited generally, but other gravitational effects (such as the change to the change of the rotational momentum) are still being investigated, and haven't been discredited. This will allow the page to be more thorough, and, especially if it is emphasized that syzygy is discredited as a correlative framework for earthquakes, that will make the page more useful. Basically, the second derivative (the change to the change) in the rotational momentum looks at the wobble in the earth's axis.Daniel Helman (talk) 20:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem with the 'author=' parameter was using it for the author's entire name. That's fine for organizational names and such, but with people we distinguish first and last names by using 'last1' and 'first1' (incrementing the number for additional authors).

  About syzygy and such: as I said before, the article is already pretty big, and it is going to turn into a book if we try to cover every claimed precursor. So we cover only a few representative examples. As a representative example I take a strong line against syzygy because it is repeatedly disconfirmed, and has no scientific credibility. (I have a couple of references if you are interested.) It amounts to fringe science at best, and per the principle of WP:WEIGHT must not be given undue consideration.

  It could be argued that syzygy should be addressed because it is notable in the popular media. I would counter-argue that this article is not about popular conceptions of e.q. prediction, just as it isn't about psychic predictions of e.q.s.

  Nonetheless, I am somewhat inclined towards the view that someone might be looking for information about syzygy effects on earthquakes, and (there not being a separate article on that) this would be a good place to look. In that regard I could see a very short section (to avoid undue emphasis) to the effect that syszygy is an intuitively attractive theory that has been disproven. Note that syzygy would get in only because there is strong chance of someone looking for it; I don't see that any other variants of gravitational forces qualify. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:14, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

To .pdf or not to .pdf

‎BullRangifer: first of all, please regard WP:BRD where, having made a change which I reverted, the proper response is to go to Discussion, not repeated reversion.

To the matter of whether a convenience link should go straight to the pdf document (as you seem to prefer): I suggest otherwise. The "complete" url (with the ".pdf" extension) goes straight to a download, which gives the user no information about the document or where it comes from. Leaving off the ".pdf" (here, and in many other cases) takes the reader to a page about the document, typically with information about the document, including an abstract, along with an option to download. This is more useful, and more convenient, than an automatic download. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:46, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry about not responding sooner. I wasn't aware of this thread. Yes, BRD is best to follow, except in cases of a clear misunderstanding or when a situation is so obvious, minor, and uncontroversial that a thorough edit summary will do the job. I thought that was the case here. I had done the actual experiment of checking both URLs and had a concrete result, so I was not in doubt.

What is there about my edit summary that you don't agree with? Here it is: "The actually do the same thing, but since it's a .pdf file, I completed the URL. Try both versions and you'll see." (diff) Here are both URL versions:

• http://www.annalsofgeophysics.eu/index.php/annals/article/download/5350/5371

• http://www.annalsofgeophysics.eu/index.php/annals/article/download/5350/5371.pdf

Unlike your explanation above (a reason I find VERY compelling), the bare URL without the .pdf takes one nowhere, not even a blank page, but immediately downloads the .pdf file, which I find rather strange. What happens when you click both links above? Is there a difference? Maybe it's my browser (I primarly use Firefox). -- Brangifer (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Yes, great rationale, too bad it doesn't work that way. Whoops, wait a minute.. ah, here we are. Try this url instead:

• http://www.annalsofgeophysics.eu/index.php/annals/article/view/5350

Is that good for you? I point out that some exceptions seem warrantable. E.g., where the choice is either immediate download, or a long list where the desired item is not readily seen. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Sweet! Great solution. Thanks for improving the article, and keep up the good work. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. Thanks for catching that bug. Undoubtedly not the last one. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Seismo Info, Planetary alignments, Georesonance / hyperresonance theory

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article is way outdated because now we have seismic forecast it seems. A Bosnian deposed king (or something like that) Dr. Omerbashich who is a scientist found out how to predict earthquake: http://seismo.info. When ever earth aligns with two planets, or with a planet and the sun (or a comet) we get an earthquake of magnitude 6 or more. It is a part of much larger cosmological theory he develops. This his discovery: http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00808674, and formulas are totally check, he expresses gravity via speed of light! He's made a countering claim to this year's Nobel prize for physics: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Nobel_Prize_controversies#Omerbashich_claim, and other laureates seem to be supporting him. How come there is no mention of this anywhere in physics sections? True though, he is accusing Jesuits of censoring his discovery: http://secret.theroyalsociety.eu Which makes sense to me since church did this repeatedly throughout history. By the way, that last link deserves its own Misplaced Pages article, perhaps someone more experienced could make an article based on it? The proof is totally out of this world. Correct too, see how Jesuits killed Kennedy and many others... Warning: bibleheads' crazy numerology ahead, and while duly ridiculed by Dr. Omerbashich, still... not for the faint of heart! Aminidi (talk) 16:25, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

This Dr. Omerbashich guy seems like WP:FRINGE to me. Is there any coverage of this guy in reliable sources? All of the above links tie back to his own website. Howicus (talk) 16:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Can't you do better than ad hominem attacks, have you read WP:NPA? Perhaps you missed the important parts from my post too: there's this guy who expressed gravity using speed of light, and expanded on to earthquake prediction, also successfully as far as I can tell: http://seismo.info. His website (thanks Dougweller for the link!) is packed with external links to references about his work. He's given interviews too. His royal profile contains many links too, like this publisher's bio, and some articles on his royal status from Bosnian media as far as I can tell. And so on. Where ever I look this guy seems the real deal to me. The fact that you don't hear about his amazing discoveries on CNN speaks volumes imo, which is not making him any less notable but in fact more notable than expected. Aminidi (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Fringe? Yep. and if course the 'king's site. Dougweller (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I posted about a guy who expressed gravity using speed of light and as byproduct possibly solved earthquake puzzle, and all you can contribute is a link to some frivolous alternative wiki? That's even lower than Misplaced Pages, and I read somewhere Misplaced Pages articles and blogs shouldn't be referenced. But since you mention Dr. Omerbashich's website, you failed to report also what Dr. Omerbashich has to say about that alternative wiki: A note on "Rational Wiki" smear campaign against this author (Google top return for "Omerbashich" and "Mensur Omerbashich"). Let's try not to be biased. Aminidi (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

And a more serious article (which also notes his claim to be rightful king of Britain and heir to Arthur). Dougweller (talk) 16:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's "serious" as any blog can be considered serious. It reads like libel to me. Personally, I couldn't find any reference whatsoever where he claims to be a king of Britain. But even if he did, that's not uncommon. You should reference real sources, as I said above blogs aren't considered reliable. Same question to you then as Howicus: can you discuss a discovery, not a person? And how about the Jesuit accusation? It seems rather substantiated to me. Apparently, Jesuits kill people whose b-dates' figures sum up to odd numbers: 3, 7, 9, 11... The famous JFK speech found on http://secret.theroyalsociety.eu is absolutely chilling, I wasn't aware of it. Or do you have a blog link to mock JFK too? Aminidi (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Since we aren't going to add him to the article, there's no issue about the blogs. I'm not suggesting we use them. Not until you can find him being discussed in some detail in clearly reliable sources, and maybe not even then. Dougweller (talk) 20:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

In all honestly, I don't care what you think since you proved in the above that you are incapable of normal discussion (without ad hominem attacks and attempts to diverge to unreliable sources), so if I feel like editing an article I'll do it without asking biased editors like you for permission. Aminidi (talk) 20:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It appears to be a pretty clear case of fringe - if it isn't it will be covered in WP:RS. Mikenorton (talk) 21:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

You just have to love how some people know that someone will not be added, or that something is pretty clear, and then, so "justified" (by their own measure), care not to elaborate. Dougweller and Mikenorton suffer from a disorder called argument of authority. Of course, that's not an argument at all because the someone has demonstrably been reported about by many sources, and something includes expressing gravity by using speed of light. The point is: what were the odds of two such authoritarian editors appearing in tune (one right after the other) on this little Talk snippet virtually simultaneously? Buddies, or the same person? I bet it's the latter. Aminidi (talk) 06:31, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Make that three of us. Which is to say that consensus is running against you, and it would be inadvisable to proceed in any manner that could get you blocked.

That three of us (so far) arrive at the same conclusion is a manifestation not of a common brain, but of a common objective reality. More particularly, your claims fail what is sometimes called the "sniff test": they just don't "smell" right in the sense they conflict with ordinary, common sense experience.

Never heard of "democratic math" before. If argument of authority is all you have to say on some guy mathematically expressing gravity by using speed of light, then your numbers don't matter because you're denying the obvious. Church has numbers and a large following, but that doesn't qualify the pope for Nobel prize. Aminidi (talk) 21:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

BTW, it is not an ad hominem attack to raise a question of whether a claim is fringe. However, to say that certain editors "are incapable of normal discussion", or "suffer from a disorder..." — well, those statements sure look like personal attacks. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course not. And why the three dots, can't you complete the copy-paste function? Anyways, Authoritative argument (which you meant by the three dots) is not listed as an official disorder, but was meant ironically of course. If I would now call your claim a dirty trick, would that be a personal attack even though I have just demonstrated it was a dirty trick, the three dots aspect inclusive? Aminidi (talk) 21:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense is to call it nonsense when someone exposes your trick. Aminidi (talk) 22:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Four of us. This guy's own websites are not a reliable source, and I highly doubt that any reliable source exist that show his theory is notable.Howicus (talk) 22:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say that I would use some website as a source, it seems this man is sufficiently published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Back to the point: equations are facts in their own right. They are exact, so it suffices to write them down as long as you properly cite their source. Look around Misplaced Pages, it's filled with equations cited by primary, not third-party sources. For example here, here, here, and so on. Don't try confusion tricks, they're not working on math because math is an exact science. Aminidi (talk) 21:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

So cite a few of this fellow's peer-reviewed scientific publications. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:43, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

The post you commented was about math equations, not interpretable research. You should really stop using dirty tricks, like in the above where you inserted three dots instead of the crux, or now pulling things out of context. If you don't know how or doesn't want to discuss, then please stay away. Aminidi (talk) 22:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

  The three dots constitute what is called an ellipsis; its use is conventional, and is hardly any kind of trick, "dirty" or otherwise. But now that you call my use of an ellipsis as a "dirty trick", I remind you of your own statement (above): "If I would now call your claim a dirty trick, would that be a personal attack....". Therefore, by your own logic, you have engaged in a personal attack. I will ask you nicely: please stop that.

Only Misplaced Pages regulations apply, so you're at a wrong address. Aminidi (talk) 21:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

"No personal attacks" is a "Misplaced Pages regulation". See WP:NPA. More likely you are at a wrong address. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Didn't you say in the above that it was an "attack" under "my" criteria? So now my criteria become Misplaced Pages criteria? Another dirty trick... Aminidi (talk) 00:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

  My comment was not "about math equations", but your claim that "this man is sufficiently published in peer-reviewed scientific journals." If that is so, it should be a simple matter to cite a few. Please do so. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:36, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

As I already explained to you, my intention was not to post the man's interpretable research but math equations, which are astonishing by the way. All equations are correct by definition and therefore are not subject to interpretation. It's called math! Mathematicians post equations and derivations regularly on informal forums and archives. Besides, equations are posted as stand-alone all over Misplaced Pages too, as I showed you on three random examples above. I don't know what sort of weird game is going on with this guy, but his equations are fascinating. He expressed gravity by using speed of light, and here we are. I call it a clear case of genius. How come he doesn't have his own page on Misplaced Pages? Better yet, how come he's not on every news channel and in every school textbook of physics?????? Are you or/and Misplaced Pages trying to suppress this? What's going on? Please do tell. There are still a few of us who are sane and can tell a genius when we see one. Aminidi (talk) 21:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

"All equations are correct by definition"? It appears that you mistake the assertion that two sets of terms are equal from the question of whether such an assertion is true. E.g."4 = 2" and "2a = a" are both equations, but not true. And you totally fail to understand how it is that certain equations are determined to be "true", and not others. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Please don't pull things out of context. You know well I meant mathematical equations, published in some sort of normal venue where such results are published. As I already mentioned (why do I have to teach you so many basic things?), arxiv where he published his equations is perfectly fine with mathematicians and physicists nowadays. Only real scientists can publish there, you can't. Besides, his equations I want to put in the article can also be found in French archives that I already listed, etc. So, you still have no comment on my view of this man as a genius? Aminidi (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, Aminidi, if this guy is published in peer-reviewed journals, please post some links to those journals, and then we can discuss. Also, I suggest you take a look at Other Stuff Exists. Each Misplaced Pages article should stand on its own. The quality of the sources in other articles doesn't affect what sources are useable here. Howicus (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see above where I said I was going to post equations, not interpretable research. All equations are correct by definition and therefore are not subject to interpretation. It's called math! Mathematicians post equations and derivations regularly on informal forums and archives. Besides, equations are posted as stand-alone all over Misplaced Pages too, as I showed you on three random examples above. Aminidi (talk) 21:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You said this fellow "is sufficiently published in peer-reviewed scientific journals". So show us. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense. For the third (and last?) time: I already explained to you that mathematical equations need no sources. His equations can be found in the US arxiv, French archives that I already listed, etc. So, you still have no comment on my view of this man as a genius? Aminidi (talk) 00:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Everything on Misplaced Pages should have sources. Mathematical equations are no exception: we need sources to show that those equations are accurate, and notable. Howicus (talk) 00:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you catch the examples from Misplaced Pages that I quoted, of equations citing primary sources? Please pay attention in the future, as I can't be repeating myself all the time. So here we go again: - Look around Misplaced Pages, it's filled with equations cited by primary, not third-party sources. For example here, here, here, and so on. Aminidi (talk) 00:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you catch where I linked to Misplaced Pages:Other Stuff Exists? The fact that other Misplaced Pages articles use primary sources does not mean that primary sources are acceptable. Sure, those should probably be fixed, but we're only discussing this article here. Other articles don't matter. Howicus (talk) 00:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Citing an entire rule without noting what exact (sub)section and point of it you allege has been violated is like citing nothing at all. Junk. Imagine a court where the judge sentences the defendant "based on the Constitution of the United States" without bothering to cite the chapter, section, subsection, etc. that make the defendant's deeds illegal. Some of us are legalistically literate, actually. Aminidi (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You have been given the relevant section elsewhere. Self-published sources that are libelous are not acceptable. Consensus has been reached here. If you want a second opinion then try your luck at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard because arguing the same point over and over without convincing anyone is not working for you. Flat Out let's discuss it 01:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Aminidi: as Howicus has told you, everything on Misplaced Pages is required to have sources, and reliable sources at that. This is a core policy, WP:Verification. Start reading it from the top: the "page in a nutshell" and first two pargraphs. Note: no exceptions for equations.

Since you will not support your claims, they are properly rejected. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think that we all need to realize that this is a collective effort! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.1.210.3 (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Can you read? What part of "The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it" do you not understand? If you want to open a new discussion click on the "New section" tab at the top of the page. And of course (as I said above) please sign your edits with the "four tildes" (~~~~).

Sure, working together would be good. Is that within your competency? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Fraser-Smith ULF material

To the anonymous person who has repeatedly added the Fraser-Smith ULF material: You are "edit warring". Please take note of the Bold-Revert-Discuss policy at WP:BRD. You are allowed to "Boldly" insert material, but anyone else is also allowed to Revert such material. After that the proper action is NOT to re-insert the material, but to Discuss it. Which means on the Talk page (here), not in the edit summaries. So I am going revert again (back to the original); before you start another round please discuss the matter here.

To start the discussion I will point out that this topic — earthquake prediction — covers a **LOT** of ground; the article cannot cover every aspect, facet, and sub-topic of interest to some editor. If you feel that the topic of possible precursor electro-magnetic variations, or even just ULF variations, are so notable that they need fuller coverage, then you should write an article on just that topic. And I would encourage you to do so.

But this article (like all articles), in not being able to cover everything, needs to maintain proper balance in what it does cover. The rule here — WP:WEIGHT — is that different views should be covered proportionately to their weight in reliable sources.

So: I maintain that Fraser-Simon's single report of a possible ULF precursor to the Loma Prieta quake is not as notable as "VAN". And you maintain (in your last edit summary): "According to Google scholar, the VAN results have been cited maybe 100 times. The Fraser-Smith report is cited about 500 times."

For sure, on Google Scholar the terms "earthquake fraser-smith ulf" turn up "about" 606 hits. On the otherhand, "earthquake ses" (short for "seismic electric signal") turns up 28,700 hits. End of story?

Of course not. For starters, we do not rely on Google to assess scientific weight. This is in part because the number of hits Google finds on the Web is very sensitive to the search terms used, does not correspond to the number of citations, and has little (if any) relation to scientific weight. Furthermore, your "maybe 100" citations for VAN is dubious, as I have that many articles re VAN, and my collection is hardly complete.

More pertinently: the VAN claims (even though largely rejected) have been sufficiently notable (or notorious?) to be the main topic of a conference and special issues in two journals, and covered in various review articles. Similarly, a 1996 review (Park, cited in the article) of possible electromagnetic precursors gave VAN eight pages, and ULF only two.

One other thing: Your citations violate WP:CITEVAR.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

WARNING (to the anonymous person editing this article): simply reverting edits without discussion (as you have done here, here, and here) is WP:edit warring, which is subject to sanctions. Also, the "Multi-Sensor Methods" section you added was a blatant promotion for QuakeFinder (and nothing but), which with your other edits (above, in the Loma Prieta section, and at QuakeFinder) demonstrates a uniform pattern (and sole interest) of promotional editing that conflicts with the aims of Misplaced Pages. Please desist from this ill-advised editing. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:22, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Attention Wichita (64.134.151.235)

Attention, the IP 64.134.151.235 user from Wichita: what was it you said about "working together"? Are you unclear on the concept? If (as you have implied) you are a seismologist, you really should consider that acting like you have your head up your butt is not going help your professional reputation, and that your supposed anonymity is flimsier than you realize.

There are some issues with both the material you keep trying to add, and how you go about it. (See my prior comments of 13 Dec., above.) If you wish to add material, please discuss it, here. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:36, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Johnson, some of your comments are not appropriate. The QuakeFinder page, if one reads it, is certainly not especially endorsing of that company. I have suggested putting in citations to it for reasons of balance. There is, for example, a link in this article on earthquake prediction to QuakeSat (I didn't put it there). Well, QuakeSat is a QuakeFinder project. So why reference a project of a company, but not reference the company itself? Opting not to remove material, but simply add material, I put in a citation to QuakeFinder. You seem to be set on referencing the "VAN method". Fine. I have not tried to change that. But to consider the "SES method" synonymous with the VAN method is a stretch, and to Google search on SES is not meaningful. The VAN method encompasses statistics as well, and that aspect of the VAN method has been criticized. Furthermore, you seem to rely on the paper by Park in setting priorities. Of course, things have moved on since he wrote his paper (in 1996). So I would suggest that your counting of SES citations is, well, not the emphasis I would make. But, again, I have not removed any of the VAN material. More generally, this Wiki article, as it stands, gives quite a bit of weight to methods that most scientists don't regard as viable for predicting earthquakes -- animal behavior, for example (most regard this as ridiculous). On the other hand, the Fraser-Smith report of electromagnetic precursors is certainly more worthy of emphasis and mention here (not simple deletion, as you have apparently repeatedly done). So, when you stop mischaracterizing edits that have been made (by me and others) as "vandalism", "non-neutral point of view", "self promotion", etc., when you stop saying things like "head up butt", when you stop repeatedly and arbitrarily removing material, then there might be some inclination for others to cooperatively contribute and even engage you in discussion. And one other thing, I'm not the only one making contributions here. Others are as well. Moving forward, and sincerely, "Wichita". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.138.63 (talk) 02:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

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