Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:33, 11 January 2014

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Consider other means of dispute resolution first
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • If the issue concerns use of admins tools or other advanced permissions, request an administrative action review
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Refining the administrator elections process
• AI-generated images depicting living people
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

User:Joefromrandb

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Joefromrandb (talk · contribs)

Accusations that IPs are socks of a banned user. When I have reverted this on the basis that there is no evidence that the IP is a sock there have been accusation of meatpuppetry.

1. Józef Kowalski Accuses 213.49.104.71 (talk · contribs) of being "Robert", presumably referring to User Ryoung122. Note that this IP is located in Brussels. I also note that the IP provides no edit summary and that Robert Young is extremely unlikely to have edited any longevity related articles without commenting (usually to promote his own epertise).
2. List of people with the longest marriages. and accuses 81.11.203.160 (talk · contribs) and 213.49.104.90 (talk · contribs) of being socks. These IPs are also from Brussels. Claims to have restored to "last clean version". A blanket reversion of (mostly) valid changes.
3. List of oldest twins. Another claim to restoration of "last clean version". Seems to have followed 83.134.143.22 (talk · contribs) (presumably the same person as other IPs as the location is Brussles) from above and blanket reverted all changes although again they appear to be valid.
4. Accusations of meatpuppetry: and . Another clear example of this user throwing around false accusations and attempting to bully other editors. Joefromrandb seems to be under the impression that I am one of the GRG fan club which is so far from the truth it is actually laughable.

DerbyCountyinNZ 23:24, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm just slower tonight, but it took me a while to realise what's going on. DerbyCountyinNZ is saying that Joe's making baseless accusations regarding edits to the following pages. Nyttend (talk) 01:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Correct. Accusations of sock puppetry with no apparent evidence. Accusations of meat puppetry with no evidence. Sorry if that wasn't clear. DerbyCountyinNZ 03:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It's amusing that Derby has reported his own edit-warring. Last time I reverted this user's errors, he got his buddy, administrator Canadian Paul to block me. Apparently he considers himself so bulletproof that he's brazen enough to make multiple baseless reverts and then report someone else. A small group of users have long asserted ownership of all longevity-related articles. It would be nice if these articles were eventually returned to the community, but it really isn't an ANi issue. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It's been a while since I've been involved in this area, but it looks more or less the same from when I was there, so if I may quickly comment before returning to isolation mode. The IPs don't strike me as being Ryoung122, because as DerbyCountyinNZ says usually Ryoung122 hastens to point out his work in the GRG. There are plenty of other IPs who edit the topic area who likely come from the Yahoo World's Oldest People group, to which Ryoung122 is openly a contributor; one could debate whether it's a meatpuppetting issue, but my experience has been they'll come over without invitation. A lot of times their edits are less than helpful, and I frequently found myself reverting them as well. DerbyCountyinNZ and I didn't always see eye-to-eye on some of the MoS issues in that project, but he's absolutely not one of the Yahoo WOP acolytes (a look at the archives of Talk:List of the verified oldest people should show that) and has always been willing to discuss things. Although I generally agree with the thrust of Joefromrandb's edits, I can see why his approach is somewhat off-putting. If he could write with a little more tact, I think the issues at each article could be resolved without too much difficulty. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

By "sock of Robert Young", I didn't mean it literally, as in Robert typing the edits. I was referring to Robert's promise to edit Misplaced Pages by proxy, as his legion of followers will update Misplaced Pages as Robert updates his sites. Perhaps I should have said "meat of banned editor"; after 3 years, I'm still learning the lingo. Yes, my tact could still use some improvement, but even if I wrote with the tact of a Dennis Brown, these issues are unlikely to be resolved until someone steps in and enforces Misplaced Pages's core policies on longevity-related articles. Joefromrandb (talk) 08:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not as bad as it once was, the area has definitely improved since the arbitration case which I was marginally involved in, but I see many of the same problems you do. It doesn't hugely matter whether the IPs are acting as proxies for him or not, they're essentially serving that function and should be treated as if they were. I think what the area needs, more than anything else, is some fresh eyes, and that would be more than a hint for anyone happening across this thread... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:00, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I see no evidence that these edits are being made by anyone with a link to Robert Young or the GRG, and don't recall ever seeing anything on their website on any of these topics. The IP appears to be merely someone with an interest in marriages/twins, presumably with a first language other than English. If they hadn't also edited the Kowalski article we wouldn't be here! I have been trying to reduce the OR and fanfluff aspects of these articles (check the edit history and talk pages) and eventually might be able to turn them into properly encyclopedic articles although I might have to settle for merely wiki compliant. DerbyCountyinNZ 21:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• User:DerbyCountyinNZ, did you try discussing this with Joefromrandb on his talk page? Have you tried any other means of WP:DR? It's seems you have not. Instead, you just came straight here. What admin intervention are you seeking? - WOLFchild 15:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Presumably, false accusations of sockpuppetry violate WP:NPA and WP:BITE and would potentially have a chilling effect. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 19:32, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Potentially, the Sun will stop shining tomorrow and the Earth will stop turning tonight. Can you point to any documented instance where accusations of sockpuppetry have resulted in a real and measurable chilling effect? No, you can't because it has never occurred. Viriditas (talk) 04:17, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

So what about WP:NPA and WP:BITE? Right, those only apply to some people. If someone isn't part of the "angry nerd" clique then who cares, right? - Who is John Galt? ✉ 15:21, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Cliques aren't necessarily good or bad, they are simply emergent forms of human social groupings. We find them almost everywhere. In any case, I'm not part of any clique. The only clique of angry nerds that I'm aware of are slashdotters, and while they can be annoying sometimes, they are generally good people. Viriditas (talk) 00:49, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The few dealings I have already had with this editor, and a check of his previous history on his talk page bears this out, to not expect any reasonable discussion to take place by interacting directly with him. I expect nothing more than a warning against making false and unsubstantiated allegations of sock and meat puppetry against other editors and to not revert edits purely on such false assumptions. DerbyCountyinNZ 19:59, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Derby, you're apparently missing the perspicacious comments of TBotNL, specifically: "It doesn't hugely matter whether the IPs are acting as proxies for him or not, they're essentially serving the same function and should be treated as such". Joefromrandb (talk) 20:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support indef of Joe: In previous discussions we've had, the general consensus was that indef would be on the table if Joe didn't stop edit-warring or personally attacking other editors. He hasn't gotten the hint to stop this actions pbp 02:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

In the previous discussions you've had, the general consensus was also that you should stay away from Joefromrandb because your interactions with him have been increasingly disruptive, yet any time his name is brought up anywhere, it's almost certain that you'll comment, trying to get Joe blocked (which ironically has gotten you blocked previously). Perhaps you should take the hint as well. - Aoidh (talk) 07:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I see, you're here to blast me rather than address the issue at hand, namely Joe's edit warring after a multitude of warnings, discussions and blocks that say he should stop. Got it pbp 01:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose indef of Joe: there is a larger issue at hand here, namely the ownership of longevity articles by groups of users. This issue should be explored and resolved. Stop attacking the messengers. Viriditas (talk) 04:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas, thank you for your "oppose", but please understand that no one takes anything that user proposes seriously. Joefromrandb (talk) 08:07, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Ownership of longevity articles isn't an excuse for edit-warring. pbp 05:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Damiens.rf, incivility and Wikihounding

Hello, I find myself here after stumbling with this little jewel and examining the root of the problem with more depth. The conflict, as usual began as a simple matter of perspective between him and the creator of Tony Santiago, Mercy11. Apparently, Mercy closed their discussion despite being involved, something that was very sorely received by damiens.rf. The violation of WP:CIVIL is very straight forward, Mercy tried to discuss with him (as seen in the diff) and he lashed back. However, there seems to be more than meets the eye here. For those unfamiliar with Tony's work, he is known as long-standing sysop Marine 69-71 in this project. He is the "Marine" referenced in the diatribe (notice how he directly links Tony's user page, despite the fact that he was uninvolved in this particular argument). I am not sure from where all of this sudden aggressiveness is coming, but it appears to be unilaterally coming from damien.rf's side, since Tony was quite cordial during their last talk page interaction. When damiens.rf talks about "Marine-fan boys", he seems to be referring to the majority of WP:PUR, WP:MILHIST and several other users throughout Misplaced Pages. This is a rather thinly veiled attack, nothing compared to the one below it, but one that exposes the fact that his edits to this article may have a more personal motivation to them. To understand that, we need to go to the very genesis of their relationship.

I believe that the first encounter between damiens.rf and Tony was one of his infamous "deletion streaks", where he would frequently overwhelm users/WikiProjects by nominating several dozen images at once. That was actually the first time that I remember seeing his name, since he quickly became the topic among members of WP:PUR due to the fact that nominations were being done too quickly to really be attended or discussed. This notably exhausted Tony, who had uploaded images since the early 2000s, when the protocol to upload fair use images was more lax (not requiring detailed rationales, for example) and tried to talk one-on-one to solve the issue. I actually encountered him as well, since damiens'rf's super-strict definition of "copyright enforcement" could apparently overcome the consensus to keep a single image. Shortly afterwards, he was edit warring with the entirety of WP:PUR, which I noted. It was eventually moved to AN/I where I noted the issue, the speed and volume of nomination. WP:PUR was not alone, notice the other topic discussing exactly the same pattern above that one. Eventually, this lead to the creation of a subpage, where damiens.rf continued to nominate more of Tony's images. From the look of it, both of them were cooperating and reaching agreements without trouble. However, from his subsequent edits it is somewhat obvious that damiens.rf had taken an interest to anything related to the Marine. I was inactive during most of the following years, but a quick browsing tells me that at least one user felt that damiens.rf has some sort of ongoing "beef" with the Marine, desfite the fact that he was actively trying to cooperate. As a matter of fact, after an article was created for Tony, damiens.rf made emphasizing how "non-notable" he considers him a very recurring point. Which is also the reason that damiens.rf felt the need to weight in during the AfD despite his history of conflict with its subject (COI).

He very frequently edited the articles authored by Tony, to the point of even being suspected of anon sockpuppetry at least once. His frequent "concurrence" with Tony can be easily seen here, but there are several examples. (here are a few diffs: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) Apparently, damiens.rf just followed Tony around tagging or frequently modifying his edits. And from the looks of it, damiens.rf also felt a need to question what Tony did within his own userspace in a rather confrontational tone, once even claiming that keeping the "hard copy" of a deleted Misplaced Pages article constitutes copyright violation (???). Damiens.rf went as far as claiming that Tony forged an OTRS ticket, despite the fact the he personally knew the incumbent Secretary of State of Puerto Rico (i.e. The "man" when it come to copyright enforcement in PR). Even when the excuse were not copyrights, he removed a public domain image because Tony was in it, possibly because he considers that it had something to do with vanity (note that at the moment that this list was moved, Tony was featured in it). The fact that he has continued to "oversee" the Marine for several years, even when Tony has avoided direct contact with damien.rf is concerning. This is WP:HOUNDING and it is completely unwarranted. Furthermore, I am concerned that damiens.rf tried to pressure Tony into giving up his admin tools and even "warned" him despite the fact that he was nowhere near a "neutral" party. This seems like thinly veiled extortion to me. Also of note is that his animosity extended to other members of WP:PUR, there are quite a few examples of him discussing with Cerejota and this one where he completely fails to assume good faith and accuses another member of possessing double standards. An examination of his edits indicates that he also had a subsequent encounter, not with Tony, but rather with his son Antonio.

With matters becoming increasingly personal, I think that we should make sure that both stop encountering each other. The diffs above clearly show that despite the best efforts of Tony, Cerejota and Mercy, damiens.fr is not interested in dialogue when it comes to the Marine. Since Tony almost exclusively edits Puerto Rico-related articles, a topic ban for those seems appropiate to make sure that damiens.rf stops hounding him. That would do it for this particular case. However, I believe that a more profound analysis of damien.rf's edit history taking his block log under consideration should take place as well. - Caribbean~H.Q. 13:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Support topic ban for Puerto Rico-related articles and images. This has been going on and off for years. Wikihounding and uncivility should not be allowed to fester as the offender will simply keep pushing the limits as it is ahappening here. Before this was posted (on 13:47, 3 January 2014), I had responded to Damiens HERE (on 22:40, 2 January 2014‎) and clearly he does not want to follow policy. Mercy11 (talk) 15:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• WP:TLDR. GiantSnowman 13:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry, but since the case dates back five years, this is as short as I could post it while keeping it concise. Telling people to browse his edit history would take them a while, since he nominates at least 25+ items for deletion at once with regularity. - Caribbean~H.Q. 13:58, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

In a very abbreviated summary, the text above describes how a user that has been blocked for Wikihounding in the past is back on the prowl. - Caribbean~H.Q. 14:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. My "something isn't quite right here" detector is going off. Apart from the first diff presented above (which is between damiens.rf and Mercy11), every other one is more than a year old. What issue is happening now between Tony and damiens.rf that requires a topic ban? Black Kite (talk) 15:58, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• Regarding your "detector", I'm afraid you're behind the times. According to this thread the intuitions of veteran editors that "Something is rotten in Denmark" are of no value. Apparently, only evidence suitable for a court of law is now considered worthy of consideration by the community. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:11, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• The first diff shows him taking a potshot personal attack at Tony, besides the fact that the conflict is taking place in the talk page of Tony Santiago. The other diffs are there to prove that this has been happening for a while. That when combined with their history, makes it hard to dismiss it. Not only that, but he was tailing Tony just last week, coincidentally, a few hours before posting that. To what purpouse? Why has he been doing it for years? - Caribbean~H.Q. 16:21, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with Black Kite. Old diffs. The complaint at the beginning of this section, about hatting of a conversation, seems well-warranted. Coretheapple (talk) 21:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• The other diffs are there to display damiens'rf's personal "interest" in the subject, not as complaints. I can't say that someone is Wikihouning a user without going back and showing that he has been tailing him for a while. What about the fact that he was tailing Tony just last week? - Caribbean~H.Q. 12:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

What was tendentious about those edits? Coretheapple (talk) 17:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The fact that he has been selectively following him around since they had their first conflict, apparently for the single purpose of annoying him (or at least that is what it looks like based on his attitude towards Tony and the constant dismissal of his work). Of course, if that is not damiens.rf's intention, then he can easily delegate the monitorization to someone uninvolved. Right? - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:56, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Coretheapple (talk) 15:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

If damiens.rf is simply overseeing these articles (without personal interest) and encountering Tony "coincidentally" after the Marine edits them, then he can surely let someone else do it. That way no one can misinterpret that he is tailing another user. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:55, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but there's not a peep out of the editor who was "tailed." I don't think it's right in something like this that a group of editors functions as a kind of "attorney" for another editor, speaking on his behalf, when he is perfectly capable of speaking for himself and hasn't. I don't think that's fair to Damiens. If he feels "hounded" then he should say so himself. If he doesn't then this is a waste of time and should be closed. Coretheapple (talk) 03:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions for Damiens.rf, cleaning up fair-use violations is frequently a thankless task with fightback from the uploader & his friends/wikiproject buddies. It appears that they have not forgiven Damiens.rf for his part in the deletion of the first incarnation of Tony Santiago's hagiography, and are resisting further cleanup/verification work on the recreated version 194.150.177.10 (talk) 16:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I know Tony, but I never edited his biography or was involved in either AfD (the first took place before my arrival and the third during a period of inactivity) I only knew damiens.rf from the one time that he flooded the project with IfDs and just learned that he opposed the third AfD after he was already tailing Tony. This has little to do with the biography. - Caribbean~H.Q. 16:51, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
    • With that said, I don't think that anyone in WP:PUR (including Tony himself), would oppose the cleanup of the article by a neutral party. - Caribbean~H.Q. 17:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

(←)"The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions."

If we ask Tony, do you think that he will say how "joyful" being tailed makes him feel? - Caribbean~H.Q. 16:56, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

• Perhaps we should ask him. I have notified him of this discussion, since you didn't. Black Kite (talk) 20:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I notified damiens.rf out of etiquette since he is the one being discussed. The notification system should have notified Tony when his username was linked. - Caribbean~H.Q. 12:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for now, or at least until we hear from Damiens.rf. I think highly of Tony so I'm likely if anything to be biased in his favor. But I'm concerned we're not hearing the full story here. You present a lot of evidence here, so I picked one of the more serious sounding charges, that Daminens was "claiming that Tony forged an OTRS ticket". But when I went to look at the linked discussion, I saw no accusation of forgery, but instead a reasonable-sounding question regarding the status of the ticket and the appropriateness of the PD label for these images. So I wonder what else in this complaint is not represented accurately. Gamaliel (talk) 21:11, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Point granted. Perhaps it is difficult to asume that the 'question' was done in good faith knowing his stance regarding the contributions of Tony. - Caribbean~H.Q. 12:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

• • User:Gamaliel, I don't believe Damiens has any interest in presenting his side of this. It's been 5 days since he was notified of this discussion and he has been actively editing, yet has failed to comment here. Mercy11 (talk) 01:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Since he's had ample opportunity to respond, I see no problem proceeding without him. But I have to reiterate my oppose due to my concerns about the misrepresentation of evidence here. Misrepresenting a serious allegation is not an absence of good faith, it's something else entirely. Gamaliel (talk) 02:01, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
      • I agree with Gamaliel. My oppose also stands. Damiens seems to have dug a hole for himself by incivility that he has not retracted. He also seems to be following around another editor, though I don't see any actual tendentiousness. I sometimes watch what other editors do too, not to annoy them but because I'm interested to see what they're doing. But I am uneasy. The supposed victim of wikistalking has not uttered a word, which I think cancels out somewhat Damiens' nonappearance. The overriding issue here seems to be that this article is kind of a COI-squared situation. A Misplaced Pages article about a Misplaced Pages editor, written by his friends and, according to one edit summary on the talk page, with involvement by a relative. The problem is that this has festered in one article with no utilization of dispute resolution except for this seemingly overblown complaint. Coretheapple (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
• Is this about the fair-use violations or Damiens.rf's wikihounding of Tony? Epicgenius (talk) 21:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Its about the fact that he continues to tail him even after the fair use issues were taken care of. - Caribbean~H.Q. 12:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Plus, as the title states, it is also about Damiens's lack of civility via the profanity he spitted out and found in the "little jewel" link the submitter provided above. I don't know what low-life corner of the world some of the editors participating in this thread come from that they have grown so used to uncivil behavior, but where I come from to tell someone else to "go fuck yourself with a chainsaw" is not considered civil - particularly if Mercy11 had not been abusive to Damiens first. Mercy11 (talk) 15:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I went to the "little jewel" cited at the very top of this section, and what I found was a sliver of this conversation in which Damiens.rf was upset about a user closing a discussion he was a part of. Carribean H.Q. says "Mercy tried to discuss with him (as seen in the diff) and he lashed back." But that is not an especially full or complete recounting of the conversation. If you look at the conversation in full, you can see that Damiens was initially quite civil and received a less than satisfactory response. While there was subsequent incivility, the concern itself seems well warranted and I have an uneasy feeling about this. Coretheapple (talk) 21:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

So your Opposition is based on the fact that "Damiens was initially quite civil". However, being initially civil is no grounds to be uncivil later when, and if, someone continues to disagree with an outcome. Misplaced Pages has a well-defined appeal escalation process to deal with dissatisfaction - and it does not involve incivility by any of the parties as you are suggesting. Mercy11 (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that's not the reason. Coretheapple (talk) 19:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Backtracking we find this from Mercy11. That an insult is couched in snark, attacking another contributor's intelligence and/or education ("dark ages") and motivation, instead of sexually referenced profanity doesn't make it less of an insult, and Mercy11 should not have closed a discussion she was a participant in. (I'd revert the close right now if it wasn't 5 days stale.) I urge both Mercy11 & Damiens.rf to refrain from commenting about the other. NE Ent 01:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Receiving a snarky, "less than satisfactory" response is now enough to randomly tell someone to "go fuck with a chainsaw"? - Caribbean~H.Q. 12:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
    • No, and I admit that I haven't gone through all your diffs. However, if anyone had hatted a discussion in, say Talk:BP or any actively edited article there would be an unholy row. Are you sure there aren't WP:OWN issues here as well as COI concerns? Coretheapple (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
      • There are likely COI concerns regarding the fact that users that know the subject are editing the article. At the very least, I don't edit it based on that. But that goes for both sides, I doubt that damiens.rf would even be interested in this particular biography if Tony was not a Misplaced Pages user (i.e. if they never encountered each other). - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:56, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
        • • Would there be an article on this person if he was not a Misplaced Pages editor? Coretheapple (talk) 15:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
            • • Is that really relevant? The article had several incarnations, yet damiens.rf only became interested in the subject after locking horns with its subject. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:55, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
                • It's the elephant in the room, right up there with the supposed victim not saying that he is in fact a victim. I think it's time to wrap this up and call it a day. Coretheapple (talk) 03:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
        • I edit A LOT of biographies. It's my favorite subject, indeed. --damiens.rf 14:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

• WP:OTHERSTUFF. Mercy11 is not under scrutiny here - Damiens is. If you think Mercy11 has violated a behavioral rule you can go ahead and start a new thread. Equally important, using Mercy11's comments as a reason for a Support/Oppose determination is, IMO, poor use of judgement. Mercy11 (talk) 16:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• Note that I have taken WP:BLP enforcement action on the article Tony Santiago, removing the poorly-sourced BLP statement against whose sourcing Damiens.rf was rightly objecting. The discussion that led to Damiens' outburst clearly shows that some people, including Mercy11, were evidently not understanding what "reliable sources" and "self-published sources" mean. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:36, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Good. This thread is about the user's conduct, not his enforcement of policy or perpetuating a particular revision of the article. - Caribbean~H.Q.

• Good for you, Future Perfect, to have taken enforcement action on something involving an ongoing discussion and then justifying it on WP:BLP. When the dust settled your rationale makes sense based on the lesser of two conflicting policies. However, your judgment there is overshadowed by your use in this same thread about Damiens' behavior by your use of phrases like "Damiens.rf was rightly objecting". In particular, your use of phrases such "The discussion that led to Damiens' outburst" can be interpreted as justifying his behavior. May I suggest, next time stay neutral and don't mix the two as it could be read as support for Damiens uncivility. Mercy11 (talk) 16:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• Strong support. It doesn't matter if he is "right", his way of going about things is wrong. Contribution history shows Damiens.rf targets Puerto Rico articles in order to troll Tony. Furthermore, Damiens.rf is not here to build an encyclopedia. He is only here to rules-lawyer over the existence of articles and images and to upset content editors until they leave the site in frustration. Not only do I support the proposed topic ban, I also recommend that the community take a longer look at editors like Damiens.rf who seem to focus only on deleting the work of other editors, not in contributing work of their own to this project. Some might argue that contributing content and deleting are two equally valid aspects of the project, but I do not agree with that assessment. It takes far more energy and work to research, create, and contribute than to tear down and destroy. Viriditas (talk) 08:42, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment The removal/deletion of copyright/fair-use violating and/or non-notable content is an essential component of improving the wiki. 194.150.177.9 (talk) 16:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah? At any cost - including uncivility? Look, I don't know if you are new in these circles or what, but we have been down this -entire- road before, and to be part of this community we have to abide by All the 5 Pillars - not just 4. We don't justify uncivil behavior on the basis of protecting anything - we have other volunteers who protect Fair Use, BLP, et. al., and do so while abiding by All the 5 Pillars. Mercy11 (talk) 16:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

How 'new' I am as an editor is irrelevant. As FPaS notes above, your understanding of wikipolicies is incorrect..or perhaps you are willing to disregard policies when they get in the way of writing hagiographies for your wikibuddy. In any case, the proposal to sanction Damiens.rf is clearly failing (only attracting support from previous opponents & Santiago's wikibuddies).194.150.177.9 (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not irrelevant if you are making statements that are (no pun intended) irrelevant to the case. At best, two wrongs don't make a right. No one if saying your copyvio/FU statement above was false; it was more a "preaching to the choir". As for the "As FPaS notes above", please note that's included in WP:PERNOM. As for the "the proposal to sanction Damiens.rf is clearly failing", please note that's included in WP:MAJORITY. Mercy11 (talk) 01:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, cleaning images is important (the manner in which it was done is debatable, but that is not the actual topic here). The problem is that damiens.rf is tailing Tony everywhere. Nowadays he is following his edits in biographies that are not remotely controversial. Why the persistent interest if not to troll him? - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment When an editor has a history of poor editing practices, it is absolutely fine to examine his edits on other articles. To do so cannot be remotely called harassment or trolling. BTW Mercy11, you are demonstrating a shaky understanding of policies/guideline by invoking wp:pernom as this is not a deletion discussion and FPaS (who's he?) is not the nominator. 94.194.24.46 (talk) 02:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: New anonynympus IP account that --from his summary comments-- seems to know his way around WP extremely well. Dubious? Maybe even a disengenuous sockpuppet perhaps? Mercy11 (talk) 16:30, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support I support the topic ban, I have seen it before with him. He did not even take a break from requesting deletion of Puerto Rico related article while this discussion is going on, in my humble opinion that should have been the prudent thing for him to do. El Johnson (talk) 18:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. It may be of interest to contributors here to know that, in what appears to be retaliation for Caribbean HQ reporting him here, yesterday Damiens started Targeting Puerto Rico-related articles, particularly Biographies about Puerto Ricans. Note that he had never been to the bulk of the articles in question before. Mercy11 (talk) 19:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
• oppose. I do see some snark & incivility from damien.rf but it is in the face of obstruction from editors keen to be cheerleaders for a favoured colleague. BTW I find that invoking civility violations as a basis to ban an editor doing otherwise good work leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially when the most vocal proponents are clearly aligned against him for personal reasons. 94.194.24.46 (talk) 02:35, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: A New anonynympus IP account that --from his summary comments-- seems to know his way around WP extremely well. Dubious? Maybe even a disengenuous sockpuppet perhaps? Mercy11 (talk) 16:30, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• "some people ask me to tag insted of removing. some people ask me to find-the-sources-myself instea of tagging. I say Fuck you all." Unless you are non-people, that was meant for you too. Then check out the community's definition of Fuck and argue if it ain't a profanity. ...Or perhaps you disagree with the WP:Civility policy in that, "Even a single act of severe incivility can result in blocks; for example, a single episode of extreme verbal abuse or profanity directed at another contributor," Mercy11 (talk) 14:37, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Perceived WP:OWN issue

I would appreciate third part opinion here. I'm having a hard time in trying to cooperate. Again. It may be my fault. I'm open to directions. --damiens.rf 14:50, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Interestingly, in Damiens' 5-year history with Misplaced Pages he has created ONE (1) article, just ONE, and only ONE (Assuming I am using the Wiki tool correctly). His love and joy appears to be his goal of interfering with other editors' enjoyment of the encyclopedia by disrupting their work, and do so under the disguise of improving things (such as tagging articles left and right). While I admire some of his work, there is a serious problem with someone who behaves as disruptively as he does. Mercy11 (talk) 16:52, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• As was explained to you by several other editors in the other and more recent section that you created toward the bottom of this page, "wikignomes" like Damiens do not create articles, but contribute to the project in numerous other ways that are essential to the project. If you think that such people are worthless, that says more about you than it does about Damiens. It is unfortunate that Damiens was incivil to you, and I agree that he should apologize, but the "wikihounding" charge is belied by the silence of the supposed victim, and does not seem to be supportable anyway. The most serious problem that I see here is not that anyone is "tailing" anybody, but that there is an article that is a veritable wasp's nest of COI, which quite frankly appears owned, lock, stock and barrel, by friends of the subject of the article. At a time when Misplaced Pages is under a microscope for paid editing, sometimes involving Foundation employees, it's really questionable that such an article exists. Coretheapple (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• The "As was explained to you by several other editors" leaves much to be desired. The several other editors = exactly 2. So please let's not exaggerate. And the the alleged "explanation" that you happened to read, did not yet have my response. (which is, in part, a weakness of Misplaced Pages forums). It is not generally good judgment to make up your mind until you have had a chance to see both sides. No offense; I am using "you" in a generic, not personal, form.

No one is saying Damines work is worthless, and in fact, as for me, I can give you proof I have applauded his work more than once before. It is not just "unfortunate" that Damines was uncivil, it was a violation of policy that doesn't seem to get thru to some editors here, and that you now appear to be perpetuating. Nothing personal. Mercy11 (talk) 00:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

It's now up to several. No offense, nothing personal, but I think it's time to move on. Coretheapple (talk) 13:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Inayity -- Disruptive Editing

Editor Inayity has been engaging in disruptive editing by refusing to build consensus or engage in discussion about my edits on the article for the Moors and it has been happening for quite some time now. I consistently ask him what is problem is with my edits but he refuses to tell me a specific problem or just a problem in general now. I find it ironic he has deemed me a "disruptive editor" yet he falls oh so perfectly into the #4 primer of disruptive editing. Obviously on the Moor page my consensus building has been going on for quite a period of time but recently it has gone nowhere and there is an ongoing stalemate due to the fact Inayity does not want to build consensus. The only editor on there who has attempted to build consensus recently was Pinkbeast but even then he reverted my edit for a reason not advised by Misplaced Pages and I also find it quite strange how Pinkbeast has responded for Inayity a few times too, seems a little suspicious tbh. I also wanted to point out most of Inayity's posts come off as barely-coherent and he even has used misquotes too.

Here is just one example that occurred recently and I could post more if you like. Here I say "new edits have been elaborated on the talk page -- please do not revert for a reason not advised by WP like last time, thank you" and then he responds with "rv to agreed stable version, rv disruptive editor" and does not even attempt to discuss these changes on the talk page like I did. I then respond with the following -- "You keep reverting without discussion on the talk page, stop. Go to the talk page for discussion, then we can go from there" which he responds with nothing but a reversion. You can then see my response to that blank reversion and his "disruptive editor" claim here and the last couple of the posts on the talk page and posts in general can give you more information on the situation. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 09:46, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This seems more suitable for WP:DRN because it is a content dispute. In fact, there are only two reversions in either direction (careful about violating WP:3RR, you two). Erpert 09:57, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I felt that it might be more suitable for this page considering the fact how long it has been going on and like I basically just stated I could show more occurrences of him not acknowledging a problem with my editorial yet continuing to revert without even attempting to build consensus with me. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Erpert here that you should use some form of WP:Dispute resolution. Whatever you may think of Inayity's responses, it's not like they haven't responded. And so has another editor. Nil Einne (talk) 14:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

More than not respond take a look at how much discussion has gone on about the same ISSUE. Over and over again. Reinserting something two editors have said do not help the article. And still he edit wars. He is making these edits while doing some "useful" edit and then saying "what did i do wrong?" well what you did wrong was the same thing you have been doing wrong all week. So the soln is to disrupt the article by adding his pov (against the rest of us).--Inayity (talk) 01:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually my edits have changed and progressed over time. Two editors who have reverted my article for reasons not advised by Misplaced Pages and for poor reasons without failing to elaborate. If you sincerely believe my edits are so poor, why don't you be specific about the problem? I've told you my current issue with the article and even your recent additions, yet you can't seem to point out a fault with my editorial and ignore my questions when confronted with them which is the epitome of a disruptive editor by falling into that #4 aspect of the primer. Also who are you quoting with "what did i do wrong"? You're misquoting me again. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 01:58, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not a school teacher who is paid to correct your experiments with this article. review Paul disagrees, I disagree and so does Pinkbeast that is 3 which do not find your contributions helpful to this article.

Pinkbeast's reversion is for a reason not advised by Misplaced Pages and I already put that in the OP of this topic. Paul's reversion came awhile back before my editorial changed. You revert without failing to elaborate or point out a problem on multiple questionings and for a reason not advised by Misplaced Pages like Pink. So two reversions come from reasons not advised by Misplaced Pages and Inayity has failed to point out a problem with my editorial on multiple occasions when asked, not just in one questioning. I on the other hand have asserted my problem with the article and even on new changes recently like this one but Inayity can't point out a problem when asked multiple times. Nothing more than disruptive editing from Inayity who falls into that #4 part of the disruptive editing primer perfectly. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 02:22, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

70, what exactly are these "reasons not advised by Misplaced Pages" (paraphrased) that you keep referring to? Edits have to fit Misplaced Pages standards, true, but sometimes the reasoning behind said edits simply falls under common sense. Erpert 03:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm talking about the reversion of my edits by reverting simply because there is no consensus and it is advised by Misplaced Pages not to revert simply because no consensus. Yes, my new edits have been made to the article but I have been reverted for the 'because there is no consensus' reason that is advised not do. Inayity has used this excuse on the talk page and continues to fail to explain why he disagrees with my editorial personally, but will revert and say things like 'no consensus has been made so it's okay to revert' yet won't elaborate why he dissents with my edits. Unlike thyself who has made it explicit why he dissents with the article whether it be older versions of it or new additions to it.70.126.13.113 (talk) 03:22, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I'll put it simple for you. Whatever you may think the guidelines say, ultimately you need to achieve consensus for your edits. People shouldn't generally revert your edits simply because they have no consensus but sometimes it justified for various reasons. And more importantly, people don't need to provide detailed rationale for why they disagree with your edits, pointing out problems along with some minimal elaboration where necessary is often enough. And it's clear multiple people have discussed the edits with you, whatever you may think of those responses, so you cannot claim there has been no discussion. It's up to you to fix these problems if you can, via discussion. It's possible what you are proposing can simply never happen if the edits are that bad and can never lead to an improvement. It's important you take the feedback on board, if you continually propose the same thing without fixing the problems or can't see obvious problems with your edits which have been pointed out to you, people may start to think you lack the competence to edit wikipedia. If you feel people are being unreasonable, instead of continually trying to make the same or very similar edits when you know they are objected to or trying to get those opposed to your edits blocked or sanctioned, you should follow some form of dispute resolution. Such discussion will need to focus on the edits/content, not the behaviour of other parties. If you don't do this, the most likely thing which will happen is a boomerang block of you particularly since it appears multiple people object to your edits and you're the only one supporting them, suggesting consensus is more against them than in favour. Nil Einne (talk) 04:54, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I know that I need to achieve consensus for my edits, the thing is I can't achieve consensus when one is willing to revert my editorial yet not explain his problem with my ramifications. I am willing to discuss things in a civil fashion on an article whether it be in an edit summary or the talk page. This can't occur if I keep getting reverted yet the person mainly doing it doesn't explain why he dislikes my edits. I mean, how many times do I need to ask what his problem with my changes is? I'm not even asking for "detailed rationale", just a simple concise answer that he doesn't respond with.70.126.13.113 (talk) 05:32, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I see plenty of comments mentioning problems with your edits like

"The current version is far better and more encyclopedic than your version"

and

"Why dont you do your edit without deleting the existing sentences, integrate something"

and

"Do you realize your edit A. has no ref. B. is less nuanced that what you replaced it with. Critical info on the European usage of Moor is now missing: e term "Moors" has also been used in Europe in a broader sense to refer to Muslims".

I think you need to read more carefully the comments you are dismissing as 'barely coherent' etc.

And as I've hinted at, there should be no reverting any more. Not because the editors shouldn't be reverting you but because you need to propose your changes to the talk page, not continuing to make them when it's clear they are contentious. And do note it doesn't matter whether the person reverting has offered that much feedback (although it seems they have), if others have pointed out problems with your edits you need to resolve their concerns rather than ignoring them because they are not the one reverting you. You can assume that anyone reverting likely has similar concerns even if they have not said so specifically.

And as I've said two times, and someone else at least once (and I think even the person you're complaining about has suggested this), if you really can't resolve the issue among existing editors, you're welcome to seek external help via some form of dispute resolution. If your claims are really true (although they don't seem it to me) the others involved will either need to offer proper feedback or stop opposing.

P.S. Making personal attacks like calling someone illiterate doesn't help you in any way.

Nil Einne (talk) 05:55, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

His responses to my edits were a long time ago and as I aforementioned my edits have changed and progressed over time. He hasn't responded to my new changes properly. I will propose my new changes to the talk page and go from there though -- hopefully editors actually respond properly this time and tell me their problems with my new proposal. You can close/delete this thread now. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 06:15, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

If you want people to take you seriously, you should refrain from encouraging meatpuppetry. And when I said you should request external help, I meant external to the existing discussion, not asking on 4chan and I definitely did not mean you should tell people what to say. Nil Einne (talk) 13:14, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can see I have tried to discuss the problems with 70.126.13.113's edits, but when they don't like the answer, they rehash the response less coherently; and as discussed on the talk page, in a condescending and impolite fashion. As noted at the talk page they have now resorted to outright meatpuppetry.

I see there is a veiled accusation of sockpuppetry above. I am not Inayity; I have no idea who they are. (Of course, I would say that, wouldn't I; but I suggest 70.126.13.113 either opens an SPI or retracts.) Pinkbeast (talk) 13:03, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

This really seems like pettiness on the part of the IP address. This is a content dispute in which 70 mainly seems to be editing against consensus or near-consensus on several articles, and then brought the conflict to the wrong board anyway. It seems like on any given day, half of what is brought here to ANI really shouldn't be. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Requesting removal of a stigmatizing ARBCOM case log entry

Yesterday, Roccodrift (talk · contribs) placed a discretionary sanction notification on my user talk page after I made this edit restoring content supported by an RfC consensus and at least a majority of involved editors. Roccodrift then added my name to the Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions under the subheading notifications at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement. I objected, asked for an explanation and then removed my name from the ARBCOM log. Roccodrift failed to explain why he had singled me out for this warning, or what I allegedly did to run afoul of the discretionary sanctions. I also asked on Roccodrift's talk page. I can only conclude that the intent was to shame me by associating me with the ARBCOM case.

According to WP:AC/DS: "Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways;" It further states, under logging, that "All sanctions imposed under the provisions of a particular arbitration case are to be logged in the appropriate section of the case page." There is no provision for logging warnings or notifications, and certainly not spurious notifications from a user that has supposedly only edited on Misplaced Pages for 72 days.

This morning, admin Thryduulf (talk · contribs) restored the notification log entry listing. When I asked why I was singled out and what misconduct I had committed his response was that he didn't know why I was notified, but now that I had been, "It is correct that this awareness is formally recorded in the appropriate place". Neither policy nor WP:AC/DS documents any such requirement. In fact, the case page states: "Once the case is closed, editors may add to the #Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions as needed, but the other content of this page should not be edited."

I have a clean block log and, as far as I know, I have never even been the subject of a noticeboard discussion, and certainly never an ARBCOM case. Out of almost 38,000 edits I have been warned for edit warring twice, and one of those warnings came from indef blocked user Belchfire. I think my editing at Political activities of the Koch brothers has been constructive, and I think my talk page participation have been mostly collegial and consistent with WP:TPG.

This ARBCOM sanction notification, and especially the conspicuous logging of it, besmirches my reputation. I respectfully request that it be removed from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement.- MrX 15:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

MrX, being notified is not a big deal and does nothing to besmirch a reputation. All a notification says is that you've been made aware that an article you've been editing is subject to special sanctions as a result of a particular ArbCom case. It does not indicate that you've done anything wrong at all. This is pretty normal, see for example the notification list for ARBPIA here: Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Log_of_notifications. The only consequence of a logged notification is that if you behave badly in editing in the area you've been notified about, you can't claim you didn't know about the sanctions. This is truly "no biggie". Zad68 15:10, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your perspective, but I believe that the notification was fallacious and that it does indeed imply that I have misbehaved.- MrX 15:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

MrX I'm sorry you feel that way about the notification. Actually you're not the first editor I've seen feel the notification implies more than it does, but all it means is that you've edited an article subject to special sanctions. It's just an informational notification. I thought the message you received about it had the right tone, "be advised that discretionary sanctions have been placed" in effect at the article you edited. OK, you're notified. Feel free to remove the section from your User Talk and go about editing. Zad68 15:40, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Several things you have stated above about the arbitration process are either incorrect or misconceptions. For example, there clearly is a provision for logging notifications, or there wouldn't be a "Notifications" section on the case page for people to log them. Furthermore, you say that notifications shouldn't be edited because only the "Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions" section is to be changed; the latter part of that is correct, and since you'll notice that the Notifications subsection is actually in that section, the editing of it is explicitly allowed. Anyway, to address your actual request, the warning does not besmirch your reputation at all. If you're certain you've done nothing wrong, then you're honestly better off just ignoring the situation and carrying on. Nobody else will care about the warning. For example, there is a user on Meta-Wiki that follows me around making all sorts of grandiose claims about abuse from the checkuser team, and in particular myself. He recently even tried to derail a discussion I was having by saying that checkusers like to out people to shame them. However, since I know I did my due diligence and that I did nothing wrong, I just ignore it. It's not worth the effort. I suggest you try to do the same. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 15:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I fail to understand how the existence of a section heading supersedes documented guidelines and processes. More importantly, this has a chilling effect on my ability to participate in editing controversial articles, and for no good reason. I see no legitimate reason why this notification logging should stand.- MrX 15:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

My point was that the rules you're saying that explicitly disallow it actually explicitly allow it, and that you've misread the rules; as a subsection of the Log section, the Notifications subsection is explicitly covered in the wording that says it's allowed to edit it. Anyway, it seems that you wish to pursue this more despite my insistence that it's futile since nobody will really care about it, so I have nothing further to say here, except to wish you luck. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 16:12, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I concede that that section can be modified, but there is nothing requiring that notifications be logged.- MrX 16:23, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I can do little more than repeat what I said on my talk page, "If you have not and do not engage in any improper conduct in the topic area then the fact that you have been warned is completely irrelevant." It even has zero relevance if you act improperly in other topic areas. You might be interested in the Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions/2013 review (which is still open for comment on the talk page), which will make this explicit, "Any editor may alert any other editor that discretionary sanctions have been authorised for the area of conflict. These alerts are advisory in nature and cannot be revoked or appealed. The alert links to the Committee's authorisation and is issued by placing the standard template message – currently {{ArbCom-Alert}} – on the talk page of the editor being notified. Alerts must be logged." Thryduulf (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, the notification by Roccodrift appears to be a quasi-retaliatory thing and I believe it needs to be removed from the logs. However, MrX did question why Roccodrift who is not an admin was warning (reminding) him, but the same could be said of MrX who has issued spurious warnings himself to others and I would remind him not to do that again himself.--MONGO 15:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I erred in believing that only an admin could issue DS notifications. If there is some spurious warning that I have issued inappropriately, then I'm happy to discuss that elsewhere, and if necessary, retract any such warning.- MrX 16:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

@Thryduulf: Your argument is based on a proposed draft? As I said on your talk page, this 'is relevant to me, so I would appreciate it if you would not dismiss it and perhaps actually address the substance of my complaint. I believe the notification was retaliatory and meant to have a chilling effect on my editing. I'm also still waiting for someone to comply with "Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways;"- MrX 16:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I just removed the log entry "as a malformed log item of a malformed notification". For what it's worth, I'll be recommending to ArbCom that the requirement for logging goes completely in the next version of the DS procedures. If, in the meantime, that triggers a de facto relaxation of logged notifications, then so be it.  Roger Davies 16:11, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Roger Davies I'll defer to your experience in this area, but so that I don't make the mistake again in the future: What is the actual rule here? Who can notify, and when, and how? Thanks... Zad68 16:19, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Anybody can notify (or "alert" as it's likely to be called) anyone under the new arrangement and it explicitly carries no association of stigma. Completing the DS review ran into the lame duck period of the 2013 committee but is high on the agenda for the 2014 ArbCom. It'll take a while for the new arbitrators to settle in to the mountain of stuff and get round to reviewing the DS procedures but it should be completed with a month or so.  Roger Davies 16:30, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Meh....anybody to me sounds like an invitation for trolls...who came up with this idea anyway?--MONGO 16:49, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

If it's simply a vanilla notification that DS applies to a topic, who cares if trolls want to waste their time?  Roger Davies 17:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Golly gee...I dunno...maybe editors that don't want to be trolled...as may have happened in the case right here. Not everybody has your patience or should be expected to have it, especially when dealing with jackasses. Lets not make it easier for jackasses to abuse process.--MONGO 17:22, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

DS arbitrary break

There appears to be widespread misunderstanding on this matter. I asked AGK specifically about this: "Is the discretionary sanctions warning for misconduct, as it says?" AGK: "Yes". I also asked if the 2013 draft is applicable now, and the answer was no. Currently there are no such things as mere informational notifications. All DS warnings are warnings for misconduct. AGK says that you may appeal the warning once the new draft is in effect. vzaak 17:06, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

(ec):This is not *just* a notification. It is the *last* notification before a block or ban. If you have one of those, anyone can complain about you to Arbitration Enforcement and they can block or ban you in a heartbeat, for a year, with no talk page discussion, and with no warning. I'm relatively new too, and I got one of these in February. Nobody can tell me anything that I did wrong, and nobody can tell me how to get it removed. Regards, —Neotarf (talk) 17:47, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is a notification. It's a notification that any of that can happen. It tells you the environment you are engaging in. It's like, if you go to beach with jellyfish, there will be a sign that says "WARNING: THERE ARE JELLYFISH HERE" and you know to watch out for the jellyfish. That's all it is. If you get stung, you had fair warning that there were jellyfish in the water.--v/r - TP 21:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

In the future, yes, but according to AGK the 2013 draft isn't in effect yet. See my comment directly above Neotarf's. vzaak 23:38, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

It has always been that way. Consensus and common procedure determines policy, not the other way around. We take good practices and we codify them. This is one of those cases.--v/r - TP 23:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

If the notification is as perfunctory as you imply, why not task a bot to alert every new editor that has made a first edit in such an area? Is not the jellyfish sign meant for all beach-goers in that area? The alert MrX speaks of is for not simply editing within an area, but having done so in a manner requiring modification, hence the requirement to "identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways". It is disingenuous to suggest this element does not exist, and disquieting that so many, of esteem, would imply otherwise.—John Cline (talk) 00:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

No, if the right template was used ({{Uw-probation}}), the template itself says something to the effect of "you did nothing wrong". It's a notification so a user who is otherwise a good editor who gets caught up in an edit war can't say "Well, I didn't know there were general sanctions in this topic area." It's a heads-up and I think it's actually a courtesy to give someone a heads up. This is all just a bit of bad faith preplanned wikilawyering so when the user gets slammed later they can say they didn't get a notification first. Notifications are not warnings, never have been, never will be, are not treated like warnings, arn't given out like warnings, arn't a punishment, arn't negative, and arn't any sort of black mark. When I patrol topic areas with discretionary sanctions, I notify everyone who has more than a few minor edits of the sanctions.--v/r - TP 00:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

TP, article probation isn't the same thing as discretionary sanctions. In the current system, there is no such notification-only mechanism for discretionary sanctions, there is only a warning for misconduct. That is what the DS page says, that is what AGK has confirmed, and that is how the warning is used in practice by e.g. Sandstein and EdJohnston. Take a look at the pseudoscience log, which had only 3 to 15 per warnings issued per year until 2012. Obviously more users than that had edited pseudoscience articles during that time. It is only a recent phenomenon that admins have begun to use the DS warning template as a non-warning notification, something which has caused tremendous confusion. I notice Neotarf announced retirement after receiving the warning. My reaction was nearly the same -- seeing my name listed alongside the various pseudoscience pushers was revolting, and I was ready to retire right then. vzaak 08:37, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Oh, TParis, there certainly are jellyfish in the water, but where? Discretionary sanctions can be used anywhere--talk pages, RFA's--and not just in some topic area. And on the flimsiest excuse. If someone has a content dispute with you, as appears to be the case above, all they have to do is log one of these against you, then make a complaint in a venue that has a reputation for not checking diffs, and poof! their opponent is blocked. With no talk page discussion, no warnings. And it goes without saying that DS will never be applied to admins. A number of long-time valued contributors have left over this. —Neotarf (talk) 01:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

No, discretionary sanctions can't be used anywhere. They require community consensus or Arbcom to determine that a topic area is incapable of being productive without a stricter enforcement of policy. So if a user is used to editing in Power Puff Girls and they happily get their 3 reverts and then suddenly they revert twice to Paul Ryan and get blocked, they arn't taken off guard.--v/r - TP 01:18, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it has been used at RFA, against an editor who has been given one of these notices, since saying anything negative about a candidate can be construed as "casting aspersions". It has been used to block someone who posted on a user talk page. It has been used to ban someone for filing at AE. It is a speed-banning notice, and replaces the policy that requires warnings. I received one of these notices without anyone ever bothering to find out if I had even edited the page in question. —Neotarf (talk) 08:01, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

@TParis: "This is all just a bit of bad faith preplanned wikilawyering so when the user gets slammed later they can say they didn't get a notification first." - I'm not sure if that's directed at me or not. Would you care to elaborate?- MrX 01:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not, this didn't start with you.--v/r - TP 01:18, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Neotarf is correct. TParis is correct, John Cline is correct, and so on. Misplaced Pages is not black and white but shades of gray. Arbcom is not a single collective, but an evolving, shifting collection of editors -- editors join and leave arbcom, and their perspective can't help but change over time. Discretionary warnings were, at first, primarily that -- warnings to be placed in reaction to perceived misdeeds. In time it became apparent that this caused problems: the concern that some warnings were not appropriate and the illogical of "unnotifying" an editor. This is being addressed -- AC 2013 made large strides in improving the process and I'm hopeful AC 2014 will bring it to closure. Remember, all that really matters is mainspace -- the Misplaced Pages:: space is definitely not just. Maybe Neotarf got a raw deal, maybe they didn't. I honestly don't care about them because I don't care terribly much about any single editor; the 116,430 {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} is what's important. In general Misplaced Pages:: has the attention span of a gnat and is long on forgiveness; any editor can choose to put the stick down, figure out the rules and edit as long as they like. NE Ent 02:47, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but why is ANYONE concerned that they were basically shown a sign that says "by the way, you've stumbled into a minefield" and then added the name to a list of people who have been notified? It's a GOOD thing to be warned, and by adding you to the list we can say "hey, don't say we didn't tell you about the minefield". Someone is very poorly looking at this from the exact wrong angle. Nothing to get knickers in a knot - you should actually be saying "thanks for the heads up". What a load of heat > light ES&L 12:36, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

A nicely worded notification at the top of the talk page and at the top of the edit window would take care of that. There's no need to whack people with the "stay away from jellyfish sign" unless they're playing with jellyfish. There's no justification for publishing a random beachgoer's picture in the paper next to mug shots from the county jail.- MrX 12:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Every single fricking article would need one then, for all intents and purposes. Think how that would look to the average reader of Misplaced Pages. You're really looking at this as punitive, when it clearly is not ... so much for WP:AGF it seems ES&L 12:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Problem is people don't AGF and whack people with bans who have "been warned" despite the prior warning was for absolutely fine behavior. Let the user know there are sanctions. Warn (and log) when they are on or over the line. 129.9.75.252 (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

NE Ent. You are close, but missed a step. DS warning started as simple notifications without implication of wrongdoing. At some point early on, someone altered the standard template to include the words "if you continue to misconduct yourself". It was at that point the notification added an implication of wrongdoing. Since nobody noticed for some time, this was believed to be the way it always was. The perception of the DS warning being for misbehavior stems from that action and was a good faith mistake. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 16:27, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

If giving and logging of the DS warning is as perfunctory as has been suggested, why not task a bot to alert every new editor that has made a first edit in such an area? Conversely, if we are opposed to bot-notificating/logging, does this not refute the notion that the warning/logging is purely perfunctory? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 06:49, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

@User 204: Just the opposite. The template has long been used for official accusations of misconduct, and carried a notice that it was meant to be a hostile template: "The template is intentionally worded to apply only after an editor begins to misbehave; preemptive warnings are considered hostile." It was only recently changed . This is what it looked like a year ago. It is a last-notice-before-sanctions speed-banning notice. The only reason anybody would have for using this template is because they want someone blocked. —Neotarf (talk) 07:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Well its not like I don't already know what my foot tastes like. Can't argue with diffs, I suppose. I do remember lurking back when DS were just a gleam in arbcoms eye and know the warnings were intended as a fair way to inform people of the rules before sanction. I also remember the temple not really jiving to that intent... But I thought for a brief shining moment it did. Probably better to crawl back in my hole now. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 15:45, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, no, IP 204, don't crawl away. The only reason I had those diffs at my fingertips was that I spent quite a few hours pouring over the changes for that particular template, in preparation for a special arbitration report on the topic, that for a variety of reasons got deep sixed. And I only went back 2 years. There are two different things in play here, the ideal of how people think the arbitration enforcement works, and the actual way it works with real users. Not surprising, really; this is how organizations work. What happened to make it change, I think was the elections, and the need to be able to deal rapidly with politician's articles that were being rapidly cycled. Admins could not take the time to issue warnings required by the policy, so this was a stop-gap measure. So now there are 27 topic areas under discretionary sanctions and 713 pages under article probation. And nobody can even explain why, or whether they are working. Such is Mission Creep. <sigh> —Neotarf (talk) 13:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Discipline page: habitual edit warring and trolling by member

14.198.220.253 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Please forgive the lack of procedure on this. It is a bit confusing to me. Also, this issue is not so much about the edits themselves. They are not horrible or vandalism. The editors opinions were not shared though and were thus regected. Not really a big deal. The behavior of the editor when his/her edits are unwelcome, however, shows habitual edit warring and disruptive edits over the last few months. <http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Discipline&action=history> 138.163.106.71 (talk) 22:24, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Whether or not the IP's edits are disruptive is debatable, despite the warnings (although calling this vandalism is rather ridiculous), but all in all, this seems like a content dispute, and thus should be handled at WP:DRN (worst-case scenario, s/he should possibly be topic-banned from the Discipline article). OAN, I find it interesting that you warned him/her about a possible block, yet in this thread you didn't mention anything about a block. (BTW, the dispute seems to be completely between different IPs; have any of you considered creating an account?) Erpert 01:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

 Comment: Striking my earlier comment per my comment below. Erpert 09:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Erpert for confirming that "whether or not the IP's edits are disruptive is debatable".

Therefore, it reveals the fact that 138.163.106.71 does not engage in discussion nor a single reason (not even a single line..) to decide that s/he should disrupt(rv, s/he claims) the edit, the claim that the multiple rvs is not in good faith(hence vandalism) is appropriate.

138.163.106.71 in my talk page you claim that,

It is clear that the reasons for this have been explained to you by multiple people multiple times.

It sounds like you are doing justice, but I would love to see if you are able to quote even one explanation out of the 2 (multiple, you claim) editors, you and 24.16.101.56. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 09:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

This is just inanity. Did anyone try to post on the article's talk page to work this out? Epicgenius (talk) 13:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Inanity, I agree.

They have questioned me on my talk, but not even a single line does WP:FOC. They ask me why I feel authorized, ask me to justify my "authority", ask me how old I am. I ask them that my edit is legitimate and I don't know why they revert the edit (except for vandalism, of course), so I ask them to present argument(s) against the content of the edit. They may do so on the talk page on Discipline. --14.198.220.253 (talk) 04:38, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Discussing this on the article's talk page would make the most sense, actually; I didn't realize that no one tried that yet. Erpert 09:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

User:66.8.164.242 possible vandalism at Polar vortex

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The IP is changing referenced data and reverts other edits. Example https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polar_vortex&oldid=589716033 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polar_vortex&oldid=589715986 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polar_vortex&oldid=589715694 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polar_vortex&oldid=589715490 Looking at that ip's talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:66.8.164.242 ip user is using ad hominem (see history) and not the first incident. Prokaryotes (talk) 05:06, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I tweaked the subject heading so it would link to the IP's user page (before, it behaved as though the IP was an article name). Anyway, I am going to report this at WP:AIV because this is grounds for an immediate block, imo (I know s/he insulted a bot, but still). Erpert 05:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Reported at AIV. Erpert 05:18, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Erpert, notice how he also adds ad hominem (racist) comments into articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Frictional_unemployment&diff=prev&oldid=586574531 Prokaryotes (talk) 05:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there an admin in the house? Erpert 07:44, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

AIV declined. All 66 has been doing on polar vortex is changing things, perhaps erroneously. Honestly the ad hominem edits might not even be connected to the polar vortex ones given the time difference. The edit that was posted at AIV is stale anyway. Warn, and if the behavior continues, either seek AIV (for obvious vandalism) or come back here. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 07:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Could somebody revert his edits? Prokaryotes (talk) 07:57, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

This user just vandalized - got banned from the same page, with very similar edits to the IP discussed here https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Jballs69 Prokaryotes (talk) 07:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

How is inserting insults and childish jokes "very similar" to undoing an edit that split a section into two and changing dates? —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 08:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Both editors use ad hominem and the timing and origin (web and mobile) suggest edits come from same user, ofc this is just my opinion. That aside, the false date introduced are still part of the article and my additional edits are still reverted. Prokaryotes (talk) 08:10, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

The date is fixed now but my addition https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Polar_vortex&oldid=589715349 is missing. Prokaryotes (talk) 08:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out Mendaliv. Note to admin: consider this case resolved (so far). Note to self, next time i first post on the user page - for a obligatory resolving afford. Prokaryotes (talk) 08:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I was just about to NAC this when I noticed that the IP has now resorted to user page vandalism. I warned him/her though. Erpert 02:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• For the record, IP is blocked by User:Georgewilliamherbert for 24h. - Penwhale | 05:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Duck Dynasty

Duck Dynasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I am concerned that Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Belchfire, user Belchfire is again using another account to edit. I don't know the right steps to take but the Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Belchfire investigation has sat for a few weeks with no action. It's fairly obvious that both LyricalCat, and Roccodrift, are acting in concert. I'm not sure what can be done, but it is odd the LyricalCat is now doing the edit that Perusteltu has been lobbying for. I'll notify these users now. Sportfan5000 (talk) 08:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

You tried appending LyricalCat to the Belchfire SPI which had already been checkusered. Make a new one -- but posting here and at SPI etc. looks like forumshopping, alas. Accusations of socks belong at SPI and not here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree that LyricalCat is Belchfire. You should pursue the disagreement at Duck Dynasty based on policy arguments. Binksternet (talk) 14:01, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes - while it has appeared to many that Roccodrift is an obvious Belchfire sock, there's not enough to go on with LyricalCat, however suspicious they look. Black Kite (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Sportfan5000, can you explain more specifically what you think the suspicious behavior is? I didn't start following the page until my first edit on it on January 7, so I'm not familiar with the history of Roccodrift's opinions on the article. I'm also wondering why you have twice reverted my edits, which I think are clearly in good faith, and are almost entirely grammatical improvements (for example here). Is it just because you incorrectly suspect me to be Roccodrift? LyricalCat (talk) 09:43, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

If you want an administrator to attend to SPI, post on WP:AN or the SPI talk page. CU at the SPI have said they are unable to compare accounts because they no longer have information about the older accounts. In those cases, behavioral evidence may be used. However, that is often hard to prove. Suggest you close this thread, as wrong forum. TFD (talk) 19:40, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Sportfan5000 should be careful about throwing stones in glass houses. His earliest contributions show him to be anything but a new user. In fact he pulled some chicanery via page moves in a possible attempt to evade scrutniy of his talk page. While we don't know who is is (possibly User:Lionhead99 or even more likely User:Benjiboi), one thing we can be sure of is his report here is certainly ironic.2401:1800:7800:101:8517:1279:FF1C:50E (talk) 19:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:Uninvolvededitor You know what else is ironic? The fact that this is your very first edit yet you seem very well-versed about sockpuppetry and even noticeboards. I don't have an opinion on this thread in itself, but, well, this is something for you to think about before you call someone a hypocrite. Erpert 02:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Repeated spamming of utterly non-notable awards on porn star biographies

A large number of porn-star BLPs have lately been spammed by a number of IPs who have repeatedly added utterly non-notable purely promotional "awards", named for porn video producers and distributors (Juliland Award, AEBN VOD Award, TLA Raw Award, with the recipients being selected by those companies) and intended as promotion for the sponsors of the awards. All of the edits sourced only to the porn business magazine AVN Magazine, a trade journal that covers the adult film industry. As a result of the repeated spamming multiple IPs were warned, at least one IP was blocked and several porn star bios were semi-protected. Today a recently created now auto-confirmed single-purpose account, Hanswar32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), resumed the spamming, with even more intensity than before, and refuses to stop in spite of being pointed to WP:Notability and WP:Notability (awards), instead edit-warring over the material. So since I have no desire to break the 3RR-barrier on any of the articles I would appreciate if one or more admins would look into the matter, and do whatever they feel is needed... Thomas.W 12:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked for 24 hours for edit warring across articles. I'll talk to the user about appropriate means of dispute resolution. --Moonriddengirl 12:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

User indicates a willingness to stop edit warring and engage in discussion. I've unblocked him so he can get on with it. --Moonriddengirl 15:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@Moonriddengirl: The core of the problem isn't the edit-warring as such but the user's total unwillingness to accept that the promotional "awards" that were spammed aren't notable, and thus shouldn't be added to the articles. But I see no acceptance by the user of being guilty of spamming (see ES&L's message on the users talk page, just above the block message, which clearly states that the awards aren't notable; which is also my opinion). What we will probably see now is repeated attempts to establish the notability of the "awards", possibly through sock/meat puppets achieving "consensus" on each article separately for adding the awards. Something that would be easy to achieve since the only ones who ever edit the articles are SPAs with obvious strong connections to the adult video industry. So IMHO the best way out of it would have been to give Hanswar32 a much longer block than the few hours they got. Also please note that Hanswar32 seems to be very familiar with how Misplaced Pages works, how to make edits/reverts, WP guidelines etc, which contradicts his/her claims of being a totally new user. So what we're seeing is most probably an experienced user who out of necessity, i.e. because of semi-protection of several articles, created a throw-away account for the spamming, instead of continuing to use IPs for it like before... Thomas.W 16:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Thomas.W, I understand your frustration. If you believe he is a sock, you can report him at WP:SPI. However, in the absence of evidence of that, giving him an opportunity to prove good faith is the proper thing to do. If he attempts dispute resolution and fails to gain consensus for any changes, future repeats of this behavior will be a clear signal that working in good faith isn't what he intends. What's important is that he has now agreed to stop warring in the articles, and we will see what he does towards resolving the issue properly. --Moonriddengirl 16:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I've just become aware of this ANI and I would like to offer my observations and comments. First, there appears to be several issues at stake here. One is the inclusion of sourced content in articles for porn actors for awards they've received, and second, is the Notability of the awards. The title of this ANI is IMO an indication of the biased opinion that some Users have in this matter

With regard to the first issue, several times I have observed User Thomas and another User consistently removing sourced content for awards that have been won either without any Edit Summary or one that includes something to the extent that their opinion of the award that it's "spam" or "marketing" or that the award is such that its mere mention should not be allowed. This brings me to the next issue, the Notability of the awards themselves. I have seen several sourced "wins" deleted such as the AEBN VOD Award and Raw Award. In the former's case, its been around since 2006 and regardless of who its sponsored by, its still factual information thats its been won by one or more actors. With regard to the latter, its brand new and started in 2013. Unless the Users making the complaint can predict the future, no one knows if the award will become Notable by WP standards, but the fact remains, a win is a win and if there's a source for it it should be allowed in the article. Other Adult awards have come and gone, such as the Venus Award, and those wins are allowed to remain in articles.

Lastly, unless the complaining Users are somehow experts in the Adult industry or actually working in it (and have sources to cite), I fail to see how they can make these accusations about the intention of the respective award programs, or, expect anyone to respect their edits when they refuse to substantiate the claims they are making about the award programs they are trying to systematically delete from the site. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

@Thomas.W: I am not guilty of spamming and it’s painfully obvious that I’m not the only editor who views these awards as notable (both Scalhotrod and Rebecca1990 agree with me). I’ve replied to both you and ES&L's message on my talk page and neither of you have been able to successfully defend your “opinion” on the matter. I never claimed to be a “totally new” user but clearly stated to be “relatively new”. Yes, I have some experience on Misplaced Pages as an IP user but I’m still learning about the policies and compared to the rest of you, have considerably less experience. Why would I continue as an IP user when Misplaced Pages offers several benefits to encourage a user to create an account? Again, I’m not spamming and at least 2 other editors agree with me. It’s sad seeing you try to distort reality over a dispute instead of engaging in a meaningful discussion in order to resolve it. What’s sadder is your repeated assumption of bad faith, clearly against Misplaced Pages guidelines. Thankfully, we have level-minded and reasonable administrators that make just decisions and prevent biased editors from silencing those who disagree with them. Hanswar32 (talk) 04:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I haven't been back to your talkpage since I fully, completely, and successfully defended my position - I was very polite, non-threatening (if I remember correctly), and a sincere attempt to be helpful towards someone who I believe is also sincerely trying to be helpful. There most certainly was no attempt to "silence", and I'm certainly not "biased" - indeed, I don't believe I've ever edited nor read an article in the porn world (unless it's something that came up here at ANI as urgent). The overwhelming WP:CONSENSUS (one of the pillars of this project) appears to be that non-notable awards do not belong on anybody's page - whether it's porn awards, minor book awards for an author, local gallery awards for an artist of photography, etc. Yes, it's nice to win an award of some variety - I once won a really nice award about an article I contributed to in Afghanistan, but it's not a notable enough award to include someday on a biography both on-Misplaced Pages or anywhere else but my résumé and on the wall in my den. ES&L 10:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• First, I can't condone edit warring for any reason. Second, if an award ceremony is truly "notable", then it would have its own Misplaced Pages article about it. However, I don't know what citing something like Misplaced Pages:Notability (awards) does for anyone's argument, since it appears to have been labelled as irrelevant to the entire Misplaced Pages project as of around 2007. If the concern on the part of some in this dispute is that certain pornography-related articles will be "kept" at AfD because of someone winning a non-notable award...well, I've yet to see that actually happen at AfD (maybe someone else has though). Lastly, I don't personally have a problem with award content being added to any Misplaced Pages article...as long as it has a reliable citation attached to it. Guy1890 (talk) 08:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• GUY, please do not fall victim to the kind of WP bias that you just exhibited. Any subject's significance or importance in the real world is not determined by the presence of a Misplaced Pages article. That logic is flawed and backwards. I like and appreciate WP just as much as anyone here, but I have never based my impression of a subject on whether or not it has an article. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 16:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• "Any subject's significance or importance in the real world is not determined by the presence of a Misplaced Pages article." No kidding, but, here on Misplaced Pages, we have this thing called notablility, and things that are truly notable (for whatever reason) will eventually end up with their own Misplaced Pages article at some point. Does that mean that subjects that don't have their own Misplaced Pages article aren't important in the real world? No, it just means that, for the purposes of Misplaced Pages only, that they aren't notable. Again, I'm not opposed to including non-notable infomation in Misplaced Pages articles, as long as a reliable citation exists for that same information. For instance, being married doesn't make one notable, but including the reliably-sourced information that someone is, in fact, maried in a Misplaced Pages article isn't a problem with me.

I'd personally like to see where the "overwhelming consensus" exists "that non-notable awards do not belong on anybody's page" on Misplaced Pages. I'm not saying that that consensus doesn't exist, but I haven't come across it yet. Was this decided somewhere else at another time? Guy1890 (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

We tend to put things differently, but I agree on both counts and would like to see evidence of the "overwhelming consensus" as well. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 03:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that any award an individual has won should be allowed to remain on their page. I definitely wouldn't use an award that isn't notable enough for a WP article to try to establish an individual's notability and keep their article at AfD, but I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned in the article. I don't see whats promotional about the awards. Do you really think that someone who's reading a porn stars WP article is suddenly going to go out to purchase their films just because they looked at their awards section and saw these awards? Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

@ES&L: I recognize your sincerity and for the record I wasn’t referring to you at all with regards to “silencing” other editors or being “biased”. Congratulations on your award and I fully understand the viewpoint on the inappropriateness of including non-notable awards on a person’s biography. The dispute here however differs due to the nature of these awards and the issue is summarized quite nicely by Scalhotrod.

I agree with everything Guy1890 said except I’d like to point to his attention that on my talk page I mentioned 3 types of awards and know of at least 2 others that don’t have Misplaced Pages articles of their own, yet are allowed to be included on all Misplaced Pages articles for which there is a recipient. To touch on what Guy1890 said about reliably-sourced information, I’d like to reinforce that all of the awards being disputed have reliable citations.

I’m also joining Scalhotrod and Guy1890 in their request to see evidence of this so-called “overwhelming consensus” which has so far proven to be a myth. The only thing I’ve seen thus far is consensus shifting towards the side of including these awards as I agree with both editors, along with Rebecca1990. The only talkpage that I know of which exists about this issue Talk:Tanya Tate shows consensus of including the award.

@Moonriddengirl: This issue affects over 40 articles that I’m aware of, am I supposed to open the same discussion on every one of their talk pages? Or is it sufficient in light of the above support, to go ahead and return the removed content in the absence of any consensus against such a move? Hanswar32 (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Hanswar32. I wouldn't actually recommend opening the discussion on every talk page, but instead finding some central and appropriate point to resolve the discussion. This is not the place to establish that consensus, though, as WP:ANI is not intended for ironing out content questions. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Pornography might be a good place to start a discussion, perhaps an WP:RFC if the scope is wide enough, since that may attract more contributors to the discussion. Personally, this is the approach I would take before adding or removing any content related to this award from any articles, so that consensus is clear. Once edit warring has started, things can blow up rather quickly. --Moonriddengirl 20:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Harassment by Safwwefe sock

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Safwwefe (talk · contribs) has been community-banned since 2009 for making a graphic death threat against President Obama. For the better part of this fall and winter, he has seen fit to troll on my talk page, as I was the one who indef'd him while I was still an admin under the moniker Blueboy96. By way of this edit, he has admitted that all socks flagged in both his own SPI and the SPI for Darkstriker152 are all him. This morning, I come home from work to discover an email from his latest sock, Blueboy96sucks (talk · contribs), saying that the trolling and harassment will continue.

I'm here asking that all socks of Safwwefe be reblocked with email and talkpage access disabled. Also, if any available checkuser would be so kind as to lower the boom on the underlying IP, it would be much appreciated. HangingCurve 13:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I went through the SPI and made sure they all had talk page and e-mail access revoked. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Interesting that the actual threat was never rev-deled. If nothing else, I would think it's a BLP-vio. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Probably because it needed to be visible in order to be shown to the authorities. If the guy that did it was brought to court but the threat was revdeleted, well, there goes the evidence. Erpert 08:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

User:183.100.156.105

183.100.156.105 (talk · contribs)

User:183.100.156.105 has vandalized hundreds of pages about Korean and Japanese football including Cho Jae-Jin‎, Kim Jae-Hoan, Kashima Antlers and Guizhou Renhe F.C. and so on just for 'fun'. I've given him a warning message on his user talk page but he ignores it and keeps doing that. Undoubtedly intentional vandalizing.--z4617925 (talk) 14:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Though i looked at 1 edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kwak_Hee-Ju&diff=588185924&oldid=586059295 and it turns out the edit was a correction see http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/hee-ju-kwak/bilanz-detail/spieler_50121_2241.html But he removed an image, which im unable to judge. Prokaryotes (talk) 15:17, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) It's hard for me to tell if those edits are really vandalism, but if that does turn out to be the case, report him/her at WP:AIV. Erpert 18:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/hee-ju-kwak/bilanz-detail/spieler_50121_2241.html this page means that Kwak Hee-Ju made an appearance against Kashima Antlers on 19 April 2011, not he transferred to Kashima. Read it again carefully. User:183.100.156.105 did the same things in Korean Misplaced Pages and has been blocked now. --z4617925 (talk) 02:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Sanction notifications

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I was today given a sanction, having read it and already lodged an appeal I cleared my talk page, an editor then restored the bigass template saying I am not allowed to remove it, is it to remain there as a badge of shame? Am I allowed to remove it per TPG or not? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:36, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Link to my talk page with that giant template showing. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes you can remove it, and the re-addition by MrX (talk · contribs) was nothing but WP:POINT in response to this thread above. GiantSnowman 20:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

There is wording to that effect at WP:REMOVED; "...and any other notice regarding an active sanction". It does seem rather Hester Prynne-ish though, and not something that I recall being enforced consistently, if at all. Tarc (talk) 20:49, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 I should think that you are allowed to remove it. That's my natural reaction, and it seems to be borne out by policy: looking at the history of WP:REMOVED for context (that MrX cited when they restored the notice, and that Tarc cites above), it looks like it used to explicitly name Arbcom sanctions as one of the things that a user was not allowed to remove from their talk page. However, this discussion led to that bit being removed, and presumably AE notices would fall under the same principle. So yeah, I'd think that you are allowed to remove it. We should probably remove that "any other notice" thing that Tarc mentions, to avoid confusion. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:51, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@DS: I wasn't trying to shame you. The sanction notice is required by WP:REMOVED so that others are aware that you are subject to editing restrictions. I apologize for any unintended offense.- MrX 20:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman. Please don't assume the worst. The guideline states: "A number of important matters may not be removed by the user—they are part of the wider community's processes:... any other notice regarding an active sanction" "- MrX 20:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Given the discussion linked above by Writ Keeper, I see no good reason to require this notice to be displayed. Perhaps the guideline WP:REMOVED should be modified or clarified. DES 21:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

There's a link to a diff, but where's the actually discussion that determined that sanction notices can be removed?- MrX 21:09, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Also I think it is important to note the difference between this discussion, and the discussion above. Above we are talking about being notified that at article has sanctions applied to it in general, as a pre-emptive warning (here be jellyfish). In this example there is an individually applied active sanction on the user. That A can be removed does not mean B can be removed necessarily (but maybe it can). Gaijin42 (talk) 21:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

• It's going to be sort of removed when an editor archives so regardless what stupid guideline might say, once an editor reads somethjng he's not under any obligation to keep it posted.--MONGO 21:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

So I removed that per the discussion here, but that is being reverted. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

This has been discussed a number of times, the latest of which is Wikipedia_talk:User_pages/Archive_12#WP:BLANKING.2C_again. I believe making such a change needs to be discussed much more thoroughly on Wikipedia_talk:User_pages before removing it as a result of this brief discussion. Toddst1 (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Common sense says that unless the purpose is to notify others that the editor is officially adjudged unclean and that he must e'er wear a bell, that it is removable. The size of the banner seems undue for any purpose other than identifying such lepers, but placing such a strong weapon in the hands of an AE admin seems not to have been contemplated in the past. That said, if Sandstein were to insist on the bell, then the recourse would be by appeal as he notes. If it is not intended to be a perpetual sign to others, then clearly it can be removed. Only Sandstein can tell us in which manner he meant the banner. Collect (talk) 21:50, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Do we perhaps need an additional userpage or log for "sanctions/blocks applied" ? (Or somehow list sanctions in the block log?) Certainly nobody should have to wear the scarlet A, but there should be an easy way to tell what sanctions do or do not apply to a particular editor (ignoring global sanctions which apply to everyone on a particular topic) Gaijin42 (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Support, brilliant idea That would alleviate the "badge of shame" objections of people, while still letting third party editors who meet someone for the first time know about the status of editing privileges in contentious areas. These days, I spend nearly all my time in the climate pages, which is vast. There's a good chance I won't know if someone incurred a sanction on some part of the subject I don't edit. If they appear where I do edit, I would like to know their status. A new log would meet everyones needs. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:56, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I tend to support it as well, but may I suggest we close this section as "DS is free to remove this sanction notice by consensus and perhaps IAR, but any change to the guideline should be discussed further on Wikipedia_talk:User_pages as it has been several times" or something to that effect? Toddst1 (talk) 21:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with most of the comments in this thread and agree that policy should allow all, or at least most, templates to be removed by the user. At the same time, there is a need to to notify the community somehow. I'm not sure how best this could be handled. Perhaps Gaijin42's idea would offer a solution.- MrX 22:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

What is the proper venue for pursuing the log/page idea? Village pump? Generic RFC? Gaijin42 (talk) 22:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I have created a pump thread about this idea where others may wish to comment. Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Sanctions.2FAEwarnings.2Ftopic_ban_log.2Fpage Gaijin42 (talk) 22:27, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

As the administrator who imposed this sanction, I do not object to the notice being removed and believe that Darkness Shines was entitled to do so. That's because arbitration enforcement sanctions are logged in a central venue, which is where people would look for them, not on an editor's talk page. Reverting this removal appears disruptive and should be avoided.  Sandstein  22:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Point of order - All the arbcom cases which impose discretionary sanctions provide a "Log of notifications" and "Log of blocks and bans" section at the bottom to place permanent records of the sanctions. Similarly, Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions exists for non-DS related restrictions (case results for arbcom cases, community sanctions for community-based ones). Those are the locations of record for such sanctions.

The other locations such as user and article talk pages are ephemeral, due to archiving and the like.

Whether the user talk page policy allows a user to remove the notifications, we don't require archiving bots not to archive them, and we do require the other locations to properly record them. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Should this sanction be logged at WP:Arbitration/Active sanctions? I'm not sure how well this page is kept up to date. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I think each Arbcom case has their own individual log, having them also logged to that make makes tremendous sense. Editors cannot be expected to know to search every single case to see if someone is sanctioned or not. It's minimal effort for the admin to note the sanction in two places. A simple comment in the case log directing the admin to also log it in the active sanctions log would be beneficial. Ravensfire (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

On a practical level, sanctions and arbcom cases happen not because of bad behavior, but because people notice and object to bad behavior. If editors keep misbehaving, then those people keep noticing, and will flag it to admins' attention including a link or reference to the sanction which is in force. And admins tend to remember. We blew past having "one place to log everything" some years ago, and realistically have to accept that they're scattered around a bit. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I can understand that. I looked around some and found several other fairly good-sized sanction log pages. Ugh, not sure there's a really viable way outside of a database for tracking in a more centralized manner but still allowing specific views for specific areas. Ravensfire (talk) 23:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Can't we use transclusion for the central log page? Admins could record sanctions at the individual ArbCom case log, and then the sanction would be automatically transcluded to the central log. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Violation of TPO, + inappropriate warning

Jehochman (talk · contribs) removed a talk page comment of mine (on Talk:Outrage (2009 film) on grounds of WP:POINT (I also reject the idea that the post violated POINT -- WTF??). I restored it, noting that POINT is not grounds for removing someone's comment per WP:TPO. Jehochman has removed it again and threatened me with a block via a notice on my talk page. I'd like a review of these actions, please. To determine whether it was a BLP violation, please review this section of Larry Craig scandal (and also please be aware of WP:WELLKNOWN). My view is that Jehochman simply found my talk page post uncomfortable (he took it as a "personal attack") and is grossly overreacting. Thank you. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:30, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I see faults on both sides. Jehochman was right in removing that contentious BLP violation. However, templating a regular is not an appropriate reaction either. Admiral Caius (talk) 15:50, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Jehochman is now deleting posts here at ANI. This is getting ridiculous. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Templates are carefully worded to convey the proper message. I seriously considered blocking, but decided that a warning would suffice because he was a regular. Using a template that says exactly what I wanted to say is not a wikicrime. Jehochman 15:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have no objection to templating a regular (see "Template the regulars" in my userspace) but given that the allegation appears in significantly more detail in the Larry Craig scandal page and is sourced there, i don't see mentioning it on a talk page wher eit is relevant to be a BLP violation, and if it is not, removing it is, as Nomoskedasticity says, not appropriate. We can't discuss whether the allegations belong in an article without mentioning them on the talk page. DES 15:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Nomo, I don't find your removed comment particularly tasteful, and I can quite easily see how someone who was trying to keep hot-button BLP issues under control there would have felt that removing it was appropriate. Remember that BLP requires us at all time to be sensitive to BLP subjects. This means that even in cases where "so-and-so had sex with this-man" is an appropriate, factual statement, comments to the effect of "so-and-so loves him some gay sex, eh? Eh?!" are not. Not even on talk pages, not even when you're in a dispute and trying to make a point. Remember that WP:WELLKNOWN, which is being cited in that discussion to justify discussing the sexual allegations, is at pains to point out that allegations should always be referred to as allegations (you didn't; you appear to be arguing that the allegations must be true and Jehochman is silly to be trying to be sensitive to BLP issues), and WP:BLP, its parent policy, specifies that negative BLP content must be in a "dispassionate" tone.

  Now, was this particular comment that you made and Jehochman removed the most egregious BLP violation ever? No, but it was distasteful, and doesn't speak well for your approach to either BLP or the RfC you're participating in there. Was Jehochman right to remove it? Ehhhh, I don't think it was a fantastic decision, less because your comment was not problematic than because he seems to be (in all good faith) stretching single-admin BLP management in trying to manage that whole article situation. Do I think you need to be more cognizant of the fact that you're talking about real people, with real emotions and real lives, when you're tempted to make pointed comments with less-than-tasteful phrasing? Yeah, definitely. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:59, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Nomo's comment was inappropriate, in tone if not in content. It certainly didn't contribute anything productive to the talk-page discussion, and worsened the already-suboptimal atmosphere there. Jehochman was within his rights to remove it, although ignoring it would have been equally appropriate (if harder to do). I don't understand the rationale for restoring an unhelpful and inflammatory comment after it's been removed. Ideally, we'd just leave the comment removed, and everyone would stand down. MastCell  16:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) The "touched a nerve" comment could be interpreted as a suggestion that the user it was addressed to was gay and closeted, it could also be interpreted in other ways. But it was injudicious under the circumstances. I would prefer to assume that it was not intended as such an implication. Fluffernutter has a point above that the talk page comment that started this was not as carefully expressed as it could have been, and that even when reporting on negative events that are well sourced (pretty much everyone agrees that hypocrisy is negative, and some think that gay sex, or sex with multiple young partners by an older person is negative) we should do so in a factual manner, and not in one that seems gosspiy or otherwise inappropriate. I don't think that was a good reason to twice delete a mention of a sourced allegation, but this is a discussion where care from all would be a good idea. DES 16:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

So, "inappropriate tone" and "distasteful" are grounds for removing an editor's post from a talk page? I have never read WP:TPO that way, and I imagine very few editors have. Jehochman has now agreed that the material in question can be re-added to the article in question, so apparently it's not a BLP violation after all to discuss whether a certain senator engaged in gay sex. What I'm on about here can be termed "BLP overreaction", and I suggest that removing my post from ANI (where tone was not a problem) falls squarely in that category. I'll pay more attention to tone on these matters, but the overreaction should be acknowledged. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The relevant policy here isn't TPO, but BLP. BLP (and the associated arbcom decision of Footnoted quotes) gives extremely wide latitude to administrators to take any action they deem necessary to enforce BLP policy. Those decisions are still then subject to community evaluation and consensus if disputed, but generally erring on the side of BLP conservatism is the proper approach. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Was removing the ANI post a good action? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:26, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

If one considers the comment to be ratcheting the situation up even further, then yes.Two kinds of pork (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

User study - returning again

Several invites for a user study has have been posted by Wkmaster (talk · contribs) - ironically, the one I saw was posted on the talk page of WikiProject Spam.

This was discussed at ANI back in September, but I don't see a resolution listed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive811#User study?, nor on the user's talk page.

Can anyone confirm if these are WMF sanctioned? It doesn't look like they were last time; and the user involved doesn't appear to have ever responded anywhere when questioned last time. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Confirmation here on the user's talk and here on meta. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I missed that - although the timeline from that posting shows the data collection in summer 2013 and data analysis in fall 2013 - so at the very least it needs updating for a new study. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:49, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, looks like they changed the dates in the Infobox, but not the section labelled timeline - so only minor issue here appears to be just a clerical cleanup issue still being needed. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:52, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) What is a user study? Is it like an editor review? Erpert 18:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, kind of like that, except there is no dedicated review page. Epicgenius (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Oversight

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sorry, I can't use email at the moment. this comment is of several that need wiping from public view.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:45, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Revisions deleted, pending through sourcing of content. DES 19:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Az-507: POV-pushing, source falsification and edit warring

• On article Nizami Ganjavi: diff1, diff2, diff3, diff4.
• Same behavior on article Chovgan: diff5.
• Warned for his/her edits, but he/she does not attend to warnings and edit summaries. He/She changes cited content and replaced it with his/her personal stuffs/POV. --Zyma (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

  This seems to be a a content dispute. You could report it to WP:ANEW, but unless you have tried to discuss it on the article talk page, it may boomerang back to you.- MrX 19:02, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

NO. It's not a content dispute. His ethnicity was well-sourced by various citations. Also please see the article talk page and its archives. This user changes sourced content. His/Her edits are against the cited sources. The revision is a accepted version and discussed several times on talk page. --Zyma (talk) 04:08, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The first four diffs show content changes: '] poet' to '] poet', a reasonable edit which you reverted three times without attempting any talk page discussions as advised by WP:BRD. That's a content dispute, with some edit warring by both editors. I'm not excusing Az-507's behavior, but you don't seem to have clean hands either. I suggest that you try to politely engage Az-507 on their user talk page and the article's talk pages. That might resolve this to everyone's satisfaction.- MrX 14:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

That is certainly a waste of time to do that, in the end Az-507 will ignore what you write, and not answer back. Just like here . --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Damiens.rf refuses to engage in Discussion and insists in edit warring

User:Damiens.rf is starting an edit war over the article José N. Gándara Cartagena. I have reverted his edits and invited him to discuss his edits first (the evidence is HERE) and his response is that he does not need "my permission". (See HERE.) Then, contrary to standard procedure, he went to my Talk Page (HERE) to discuss there, seeking safe harbor under WP:OWN. Beyond the fact that there is no proof of my violating WP:OWN (I have the articles in my automatically added to my Watchlist as I edit them), any discussion seeking Consensus, as is the case here, tradionally occurs in the article's Talk Page space, not at an editor's personal Talk Page, so other editors can contribute as well. Perhaps someone can go to my Talk Page (or his) and talk some sense into Damiens. Thanks.

What is going on in this case cannot be judged without This Sorely Needed Background: Ever since User:Caribbean H.Q. reported Damiens to this ANI HERE for uncivility and Wikihounding of other editors in the Puerto Rico WP:PUR project (I was one of the affected Puerto Rico project editors), Damiens started a campaign to target only Puerto Rico-related articles, especially biographies, as shown HERE. I reverted Damiens edits at the biography of Raúl Gándara Cartagena (the brother of the José N. Gándara Cartagena above) and Damiens did start a discussion in the Talk page of that article, Raúl Gándara Cartagena's, AS SHOWN HERE and Damiens and I are now discussing that matter there. (BTW, Damiens had failed to start similar Talk Page discussions in other two PR bio articles (I eventually did) that he edited, but I won't get into those details here.) However, when it came to the José N. Gándara Cartagena article, Damiens now appears to have changed his mind about getting engaged in any discussion on other articles (See Talk Page at José N. Gándara Cartagena.(http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Jos%C3%A9_N._G%C3%A1ndara). Just for the record, these are both articles Damiens had never edited before.

BTW, in his 5-year history with Misplaced Pages he has created ONE (1) article . As such, his love and joy appear to be interfering with other editors' work by disrupting their work, and do so under the disguise of improving things, especifically WP:TAGBOMBing as can be seen at José N. Gándara Cartagena. While I admire some of Damiens work (admittedly very little of Damiens work), there is a serious problem when someone chooses to behave as disruptively as he is behaving. Basically, Damiens started tagging Puerto Rico articles in retaliation for someone reporting him to ANI as linked to above.

I don't want to raise any false alarms here, and Damiens may in fact come to grips with the fact that not discussing is not an option. But since Damiens and I are already involved in an edit war over Raúl Gándara Cartagena as seen here and appear headed for a second edit war yet as can be seen HERE, hopefully third party involvement will prove it unnecessary to file a 3RR. I have informed Damiens of this Discussion about him. Thanks. Mercy11 (talk) 19:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Wikignomes typically don't create articles on their own. They tend to focus on cleaning and doing minor changes to existing pages. Content Creation != Editing Misplaced Pages. Please consider trying your report again listing concrete "He Did This which is against THAT policy" instead of throwing a great many disorganized arguments against the wall in hopes taht something sticks... Hasteur (talk) 20:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

That's a beautiful categorization of Damiens work! However, the link you provided Wikignomes doesn't describe at all what he does. We all love editors who are fixing typos, correcting poor grammar, creating redirects, adding categories, and repairing broken links, etc but nothing in that Wikignome article describes what Damines does - and which infuriates editors as seen on the Other Section Above. Mercy11 (talk) 04:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I see nothing particularly contentious about Damiens's editing on this article, which appears to be mostly a consolidation of references into a more compact display, consistent with community practice, and noting sourcing issues over geocities references (which generally raise SPS issues). I suggest the OP review WP:RS and WP:REFNAME. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Which article are you referring to when you say "see nothing particularly contentious about Damiens's editing on THIS article"? Because THIS ARTICLE HERE shows 13 points of contention. Perhaphs you care to elaborate Here and There as well, but and answer on the "this article" would solve some ambiguity. Mercy11 (talk) 20:34, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's the article. Your tendentious wall of text, however, does not make Damiens's rather routine and consistent=with-community-practice contributions contentious. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:42, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

You are missing the point: The issue here is not whether Damiens's "rather routine and consistent=with-community-practice" edits can justify his engaging in an edit war. (That's a collorary of "engaging in an edit war because he thinks his edits are right and has already been addressed by policy at WP:EW.) The issue here is whether or not he is violation policy by not following WP:Dispute resolution protocols already in place.

Also, though 1/2 a screen of text is not what most of us would call a "wall of text", that would be AGF issue because my 1/2 screen "wall of text" was simply intended to facilitate Damiens response. Just because others (you?) wouldn't appreciate that, doesn't mean it is wrong. It's a matter perspective - a matter of seeing the glass 1/2 full rather than 1/2 empty. It's too bad you perceived it negatively.

Unaddressed in your comment above is that you, too, have joined the revert craze, instead of joining the open discussion. I came here asking for wisdom and seeking enlightment - I did not need to come here if all I wanted was to go on reverting, edit warring, etc., but with your revert action you seem to be tacitly saying that revert is what Damien is supposed to do when he sees edits that he just disagrees with (even when the edits come with an open discussion in the article's Talk Page in which he refuses to participate), rather than participate in Discussion that seeks consensus. Mercy11 (talk) 00:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Much of what Damien is doing with combining citations (the ''<ref name='' stuff) is so simple and so routine that it can be done with a bot. Tagging the page for citation problems requires human judgement, but Damien's doing just what's routine with Geocities; it's a self-published source that's generally not reliable. Nyttend (talk) 22:15, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

You are right but you seem to be missing the point. The issue here is not whether we can justify Damiens engaging in en edit war because he (or, admittedly, me for that matter - but let's bear in mind I am the one coming here seeking a source of higher wisdom, not Damines who appears to care less), Damiens, thinks his edits are right (combining citations, tagging SPS's and RS's, etc.). The issue here is whether or not he is violation policy by not following WP:Dispute resolution protocols already in place. Mercy11 (talk) 00:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Mercy11 makes much the same arguments in a section toward the top of this page, which really should be combined with this one and/or hatted, as I think that one has played itself out. Coretheapple (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Except that you are not an uninvolved party yourself, so your proposal may be tainted with self-service. Nothing personal. So I disagree. Instead propose that the page be returned to its per-edit warring form of months ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Jos%C3%A9_N._G%C3%A1ndara&oldid=562097117) and the page be protected until the parties Discuss. Mercy11 (talk) 00:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Excuse me? The sum total of my "involvement" was in commenting on the section that you created above. Coretheapple (talk) 00:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• I did not create that section; User:Caribbean H.Q did. Nothing personal, just correcting a fact.

Still, I propose the article (1) be reverted to its original version, (2) be protected from editing, and (3) that a 3-7 day discussion/cool off period be allowed for the parties to discuss and reach agreement. That's not much to ask: that's enforcing Misplaced Pages policy: Plus it's fair and square - not dictatorial as Wolfowitz did with his revert that was based on his perspective of who was right rather than on the fact that we were both already edit warring. Nothing personal, just facts. Mercy11 (talk) 01:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

There's already agreement on this article, from everybody who's weighed in on the substance but you. The Damiens version of the article is better, and more consistent with policy and practice, than yours. Your removal of the tag concerning self-published sources was grossly inappropriate. Arguing at tendentious length and casting aspersions on editors who reject your position is inappropriate. WP:CONSENSUS calls for you to accept the community's conclusion here, not for the community to wait until you accept its position. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Disagreeing with the unfounded charges you've made against Damiens does not an involved editor make. I've reviewed the edits that he made to the article in question and I found them to be constructive, your reverts not to be constructive, and do not believe that what you suggest is necessary. Coretheapple (talk) 02:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I think we should speedily close this thread and merge it with this thread. That thread is long enough, sure, but why have two open threads about the same general situation? Erpert 03:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Why have two threads open? (1) Because the other thread is not my complaint - I am only a opinion voice there. (2) Because this thread is about an edit war in a specific instance of a specific article that needs to be dealt with the specific traditional EW tools, whereas the other thread is about Wikihounding and uncivility. So the two threads, albeit targeting the same editor, are not about the same "general situation" as you state since wikihounding and uncivility (the other thread) are vastly different from a Dispute/Edit Warring. We should really tell it as it is: the only thing in common between the two threads is Mr. Damiens and that to me is not strong enough reason to close anything. In any event that other thread is at the top of the heap and, thus, sure to be closed any minute now anyway. Unless there is a policy/practice about faster than lightening thread-closing as a goal I don't see the need for closing anything before its due time. The other thread is over a week old; this one was born yesterday - thanks, I argue, to Mr. Damiens retaliatory actions. He has done this to his peril. Are we somehow in the mercy business? Mercy11 (talk) 04:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Mercy, the only disruption here is the removal of valid tags and the deletion of reference mergers. On your statement about protection — aside from vandalism by someone with a dynamic IP address, the only time we protect is when multiple people are disrupting the page. In this situation, exactly one person is being disruptive, so if the problem continues, the solution will be someone blocking you rather than protecting the page. Please start listening before it gets to that point. Nyttend (talk) 05:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

One might argue that it's already to that point. Consensus suggests that Damien's version is firmly supported by policy, and that Mercy's version is not. There is no support whatsoever for any sort of protection or sanction against Damiens, and Mercy is inching into WP:IDHT territory. The best thing that could happen to Mercy11, at this point, would be the closure of this thread. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 13:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, I came here for enlightment so, for the sake of collaboration, I admit I probably went too far in reverting all of his edits. Frankly, from the start I stated to Damiens I was willing to accept #2, 3, and 6 (after getting his side). As for #7-12, and despite what the WP:PG say, I was willing to WP:IAR and come to agreement there as well. That left #1 and #4 to discuss. So let me get some substance: On #1, where he tagged that 1-paragrapgh/3-sentence lede article for having a lede that was too long? My only assumption there AGF is he meant too short. But even too short makes no sense since the article was only 10K in size. And how about #4, where he placed CN and SPS banners on such a short article after also tagging every single paragraph? Do we encourage that? Wouldn't that constitute WP:Tag bombing? Most importantly on #4, his claim of SPS is not valid since the subject has been dead for 50 yrs and the source is from the library of a school named after him based on newspaper articles with publ dates & pages? Are you guys on this thread supporting that too, and if so, where did I err there? (I ignore #13 because it is procedurally dependent on #4) And, last, what would you have done differently (not, what would you not have done - I have already heard that loud and clear here) or to follow when an editor disagrees with another editor's edits. (I don't need (please) a WP:DISPUTE, I do need specific counsel on this from you more experienced contributors.) Thanks. Mercy11 (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Just one point. You seem to misunderstand WP:SPS. A self-published source is not a source-text written by the article's subject. It seems to me that's what you understand of SPS. If I'm mistaken, sorry. My bad. --damiens.rf 16:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, an SPS is a source where any user can add content and typically without any editorial control (Misplaced Pages would be an example of that). You're talking about autobiographical sources which, should one have existed for this person, probably would be okay. --MASEM (t) 16:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

comment Mercy11 needs to disengage and stop creating conflict with Damiens.rf. Their poor understanding of not a few guidelines & policies is compounded by WP:IDHT,WP:DEADHORSE, and WP:OWNERship tendencies.94.194.24.46 (talk) 02:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: New anonynympus IP account that --from his summary comments HERE-- seems to know his way around WP extremely well. Dubious? Maybe even a disengenuous sockpuppet perhaps??? Mercy11 (talk) 16:30, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Badmintonhist again

Badmintonhist has been engaging in uncivil behavior, name calling, personal attacks, and not assuming good faith on Talk:War on Women (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and (the reason I decided to make this post) 6). Specifically, he has yet again targeted Roscelese, telling BullRangifer to resign, and general hostility toward Binksternet and others. Because of this user's multiple past infractions and warnings, and being the subject of noticeboard posts for stalking/hounding behavior targeting Roscelese (1, 2) and general incivility/attacks on talk pages (1) I feel it necessary to report the current behavior. Badmintonhist has been given multiple warnings over 4 years and still continues to violate the conduct guidelines of Misplaced Pages. Moreover, he has repeatedly attacked and harassed another user despite "final warnings".

Given the history of this user and their recidivism, I'd like to see a subject ban from all political articles and a "no contact" with Roscelese policy enforced (if that is what Roscelese wants) with violations resulting in blocking. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Badmintonhist continued following me after the supposed "final" warning, so I obviously would be very happy with an interaction ban or a block. The community can decide whether or not to ban him from political articles, but at the very least, he should be banned from War on Women and its talkpage, where he's been admonished repeatedly for wasting everyone's time. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:55, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Badmintonhist has been continually disruptive at Talk:War on Women, and in the article space. At minimum, an article and talk page ban should be set in place. Of course, the violations of IBAN with Roscelese should be dealt with. Binksternet (talk) 08:09, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

So admins, how should this particular case of harassment be dealt with? He's had his warnings and ignored them. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Roscelese, would you be able to supply diffs, please? StAnselm (talk) 08:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Er, well, he was even blocked for continuing to follow me after the final warning, and then still did it again anyway (I don't remember if there's even more; as you may guess, it's been a busy few months for me and it wouldn't have surprised me if I just stopped bothering to warn after the admins' failure to enforce). –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Sheesh, is there a kennel for this hound? I'm really sensing some WP:NOTHERE because s/he has continued the very behavior that s/he was blocked for at a faster (and more alarming rate). Erpert 08:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• This is a unfortunate because I've seen Badmintonhist contribute productively to discussions, for example at Focus on the Family where he calmly debates content issues and frequently persuades editors to consider other points of view. However, War on Women has apparently put a bee in his bonnet. He seems to be too invested in the subject to contribute dispassionately. He has repeated the same arguments ad nauseum and refuses to accept the scope of the article that has been established through consensus. His participation sometimes degrades into snarkiness, for example, "How's your eyesight?". It's obvious that Badmintonhist has contempt for Roscelese. Perhaps this could be addressed by a two way prohibition preventing both users from replying to or referring to the other on any article talk page. I don't think that an interaction ban should prevent either editor from editing the same articles, with the exception of War on women.- MrX 15:07, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I propose that Badmintonist be permanently banned from War on Women, including the talk page and any meta discussions about the article.

• Support as nominator, for reasons explained above.- MrX 15:07, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

  Well let's see ol' Binksternet said that I didn't give an "actionable" problem with the article when I restored a template, which I clearly did; so the "how's you eyesight" query, while snarky, wasn't all that unreasonable. My "Resign" plea to BullRangifer was less than serious, and we've had a pleasant chat on his talk page since then. I say "half" because, if you care to notice, he had just engaged in one of his signature "If you don't agree with me, you're not fit to be a true Wikipedian" routines prior to my comment. Roscelese, who hadn't been around much, managed to chime in with a pointless "green spotted flying frogs" hypothetical as if it were somehow analogous to mine, so reminding her of her own ideological contentiousness, which FAR outstrips mine, is at least understandable. All in all, I'd say that I'm being indicted here for giving back as good, and sometimes perhaps better, than I got. Badmintonhist (talk) 15:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC) : Sorry.That was supposed to br "flying spotted green mice."

• Support ban on the topic of the US Republican War on Women, and any other instance of the phrase "war on women". Badmintonhist has been trying to water down the article and diffuse its focus, resorting to disruptive posts and repeated arguments when consensus is already clear. Binksternet (talk) 16:14, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Declaration that I am not an uninvolved editor. As far as article edits, I haven't seen much of an issue with Badminthonhist beyond the normal disputes that arise on a contentious article. On the discussion page, points made tend to offer opinions shared by other editors. What I think has other editors stressed is the persistence on issues when discussion seems worn out and circular - emotions are high and there is certainly some boomerang. While not clear, the !vote is leaning toward no changes, leaving the underlining issue for Badmintonhist unresolved. In an effort to change the consensus, I think he/she tried to present the discussion in a different context / role reversal and it ended up getting personal as other editors saw it as WP:IDHT. I'd say to Badmintonhist, you fought the good fight - let it go. If the discussion can move on from this topic, I think attitudes will settle down and we can work at improving the article within its current scope. Morphh 17:01, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose This is little more than ideological sniping in order to try and get rid of someone they don't like. Arzel (talk) 16:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Having a POV is okay, but pushing that POV to the point it affects editing is not okay. RS determine our content, not our political POV. The added fact that an even worse POV warrior like Arzel supports him does not help the matter at all. They should both be topic banned from all political articles. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban per original post. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support per evidence and MrX. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I've never heard of this editor before, and am uninvolved in the article. Looking at this editor's block log, I see only one block, which was for a week several months ago. Assuming that he's the scoundrel portrayed here in this thread, I would recommend either a total block for one month, or a one-month topic-ban from this article. In other words, let's impose graduated penalties, and reserve the most severe stuff as a last resort.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Badmintonhist has repeatedly demonstrated an unwillingness to engage civilly on this article, often holding fellow editors in apparent contempt and refusing to acknowledge consensus. Gobōnobō 20:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I propose Badmintonhist be barred from contacting or talking to/about Roscelese. In other words, a zero-tolerance, zero-strike no contact order.

• Support (if not punished for most recent infraction) as nominator per original explanation at top of topic. User has clear history of hounding Roscelese. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support per WP:HOUND, WP:NOTHERE, WP:POINT, WP:IDHT; take your pick. (BTW, Arzel, I personally think this would be people trying to get rid of someone they didn't like only if Roscelese or Bullrangifer made the proposal.) Erpert 08:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: I assume the proposal is simply a one-way interaction ban. But at this point, I can't see any diffs posted regarding personal attacks/hounding Roscelese since July 2013, when he was issued a final warning. StAnselm (talk) 08:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• See the links 2 and 6 in the original post (or read that talk page). Black Kite (talk) 12:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support (Note: I issued the original warning). Black Kite (talk) 12:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support with the expectation that Roscelese will also not engage Badmintonhist. There is a troubling history of vitriol directed at Roscelese by Badmintonhist. Warnings and a block have not had the desired effect as evidenced by the latest interaction.- MrX 14:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose at this point. Badmintonhist was warned in July and blocked in August for harassment, and that has no place on wikipedia. I think wikipedia's biggest weakness is that we let editors get away with personal attacks. Any evidence of recent personal attacks or harassment would make be support this one-way interaction ban. However, at this stage the only diffs presented () are not really enough - especially if this is the only stuff that Badmintonhist has said to or about Roscelese since August. If it isn't, we need some more diffs, please. StAnselm (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

A semiprotection reqest for Final Fantasy VII until it goes away

A dynamic IP and possibly someone's IP sock of sorts edits against consensus while refusing discussion, ignoring requests for disscussion by others, and even even vandalizing the talk page when I tried to initoate a discussion. I guess few days should be enough, it's not being hotly edited anyway (the article's pretty much complete, and I even think it should be an FA, but that's another story), thanks. --Niemti (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIII and Final Fantasy X too, same story. --Niemti (talk) 20:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Also lol "genre warrior, reported". --Niemti (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Aggressive edit warring is never the right course to take, so that IP editor is in the wrong there, but the point about the content is correct IMO. Cloud is the main protagonist of the game; even the lead of the article it as such, with none of the others given equal billing. Tarc (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course he's the "main" protagonist, and a symbol. Which doesn't change Aerith (who's also the emotional and narrative focal point) and then Tifa are too (and for some time Cloud is not a protagonist at all, when he's in a near vegetable state and reduced to an inanimate object in a wheel chair). /sperg --Niemti (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

By that logic, however, most games will have both male and female protagonists. Anyway, that debate would not be suitable for this board, so let's not debate here. - Penwhale | 22:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Not really, most games have eirther only a male protagonist or no protagonists at all (and this was discussed already and extensively). And yes. --Niemti (talk) 22:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

This guy is editwariing without giving a reliable source, no one considers the lovers of ffmain characters the female protagonists. I suggest a ban on genre warrior niemti. 201.68.113.100 (talk) 22:28, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I know it's (probably) just a dynamic IP, but it's becoming pretty tiresome. But I think ding-dong-bannu might work, if someone's willing to play whack-a-mole if it returns. --Niemti (talk) 22:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• See, FF8 probably can be argued a bit more (Rinoa affects the story more than Tifa does); likewise, it can also be argued for FFX as well (after all, the driving force behind the story is Yuna's pilgrimage...) However, since discussion (or attempts thereof) is occurring at the talk page and no subsequent edits, I would suggest that this request be closed without further actions. - Penwhale | 15:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Request to block abusive editor 88.81.159.164

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Left unsigned note on my Talk page about a topic, displaying his homophobia. The term is a derogatory one for lesbian. No doubt angered by some of my work on Daniel Squadron. Intentionally random and homophobic as the editor's only other contribution on Misplaced Pages is one on a Belgian footballer. thanks!--38.105.132.130 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Request for blocking of IP user 86.141.200.100

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just reporting the abuse of the Raven (BBC TV series) page by IP user 86.141.200.100. He/she keeps changing the page to nonsense words and inappropriate formatting. See his/her contributions page for evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grgrsmth (talk • contribs) 01:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

user:QuackGuru either WP:STALKING me or WP:TAGTEAMing with user:BullRangifer

User:Brozhnik Recently added a biased study from Media Matters for America to the Fox News Channel controversies article. Media Matters for America, for the record, has been trying to destroy Fox for years and recently claimed that it won. I removed this "study" because it was not accompanied by any other sources to establish weight and because of the inherent bias that MMfA has to begin with. Without any secondary weight this article would be filled with nothing but partisan screed from MMfA as that is almost all that they have done for the better part of the past decade.

It was restored by User:Bullrangifer twice and then restored by user:QuackGuru almost immediately Quack has never edited this page before and it appears to be stalking or at the very minimum tagteaming. Arzel (talk) 05:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like BullRangifer has never edited this page either. They recently were baiting me on my own talk page. This appears to be related. Arzel (talk) 06:04, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

QuackGuru notified Arzel (talk) 05:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC) BullRangifer notified. Arzel (talk) 05:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I added the article to my watchlist last year back in December. QuackGuru (talk) 06:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea how long it's been on my extensive watchlist. Right now my watchlist has this notification at the top: "You have 8,956 pages on your watchlist (excluding talk pages)." (I need to clean it up!)

Arzel, nothing you do on Misplaced Pages is sacred. You have no right to privacy, or to carry on your only activity, which is to whitewash right wing articles, not by actual editing, but by deleting properly sourced content, simply because it is critical. You have been informed many times that biased RS are proper to use in most articles, especially ones describing controversies, like the one in question. The article could not exist without such content from such sources, but that's really what you want, right?! In fact, very little would be left of Misplaced Pages if we banned biased sources. We would totally fail in our mission, which is to document the sum total of human knowledge, which includes controversies which are usually documented in biased sources. We'd only be telling one side of the story. You keep refusing to accept that aspect of the RS policy, using "biased source" as an excuse to delete content and sources you don't like. You have thrown a boomerang here, and now highlighted your nefarious activities. Calls for you to be topic banned from these articles have been made numerous times, and each time you have filed an AN/I case, you have lost. It's time for that topic ban. You have certainly received enough warnings. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:11, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

True enough, biased RS can sometimes be used. But the problem here is that Media Matters isn't a "biased RS"; it's just biased. It's not a reliable source according to any possible reading of our policy on sources. Media Matters is WP:QUESTIONABLE, and should only be used with great caution. But I didn't detect a lot of caution in your knee-jerk reverts, Bull.

Also note that Bullrangifer rests his case upon a straw man. Arzel hasn't argued simply that the material can't be in the article; he argues that it needs vetting by actual reliable sources so that a determination of due weight can be made per NPOV. Without that, inclusion of the material in the article constitutes prima facie original research.

Personally, I find it very interesting that we have two editors here who are edit-warring, one at 3RR and the other at 2RR, and one is looking for a topic ban but neither editor has availed themselves of discussion on the Talk page. Jump the gun much? Roccodrift (talk) 07:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• comment A quick google search, shows that contrary to the claim by Arzel that the source is not accompanied by any other source is wrong. See http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2013/10/climate-denial-fox-media-matters Prokaryotes (talk) 07:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Arzel dismisses MMA as having an "inherent bias", and Arzel dismisses the MMA report itself as biased, but Misplaced Pages does not require its reliable sources to be free from bias. This looks like a boomerang complaint which highlights the harmful and disruptive editing practices of Arzel. Binksternet (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• (Non-administrator comment) I agree that it looks like we're in boomerang country. Worst come to worst, I would weakly support a topic ban on Arzel for all Republican-centered articles (and this is coming from a Democrat). Yes, Arzel, the references may be biased, but Misplaced Pages doesn't reject biased sources; in fact, it supports them. (This also works in concert with WP:V.)

OAN: Roccodrift, I don't know exactly what point your comments were trying to make, but please stop stirring the pot. Erpert 08:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Yet more straw man arguments. I see but a single editor here (other than myself) who actually read and understood what Arzel said, and who bothered to address the point he actually made.

Oh, and BTW... pointing out fallacious arguments is not "stirring the pot". Roccodrift (talk) 09:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

•  Comment: Can we please add the small "f" in MMfA, as MMA has it own issues, and we sure don't want to accidentally mix them together (although, that would make for an interesting juxtaposition) ES&L 10:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • We can use MMfA in most cases although of course we should attribute it. Anyone thinking that we can't use a source simply because it has a pov needs to read our policies again. Loads of discussions at RSN by the way - of course those with a pov opposing it would like it banned as a source, but if we did that we'd lose a lot of sources that actually meet WP:RS. Vetting is appropriate for scholarly sources but I don't see it as appropriate here for the MMfA study. But the issue that was brought up was about WP:Hounding (we need to avoid the use of the word 'stalking) which is defined as " threats, repeated annoying and unwanted contacts, repeated personal attacks, intimidation, or posting personal information." That hasn't happened here so this doesn't belong here and should be closed. Dougweller (talk) 10:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I see that pretty much every ignored one basic aspect which is that MMfA has a ton of crap about FNC and that they have a dedicated interest in seeing FNC destroyed. Apparently that doesn't matter to the familiar crowd defending this type of partisan editing. I also love that another lefty outlet (Mother Jones) is used to try and give weight. Furthermore, this is WP:HOUNDING then as BullRangifer has not edited this page and was recently at my talk page WP:BAITing me. Arzel (talk) 15:02, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I concur that BullRangifer was at your talkpage and was baiting you...I removed one of his posts from there myself. That said, all of you really need to cease this highly partisan and polarizing bickering that is going on across numerous article spaces, and remind everyone involved in edit warring that 3RR is not an entitlement.--MONGO 15:07, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I thought it was a pretty simple situation of removing a biased study from a biased source which had no WP:WEIGHT behind it. Editors often try to add obscure pieces of information from MMfA that has had little or zero coverage anywhere else, so I was a little surprised to see this response. Without this monitoring that article would be little more than an attack page from MMfA on FNC. Arzel (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem here is Arzel. This is an editor that is NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but rather to wage ideological battles across a spectrum of politically-related articles. I have tried to discuss this with the Arzel, but he has consistently rebuffed me, usually piling on further insults. His article contributions consist almost entirely removing other editor's edits. It's no surprise that he has such a poor grasp of policy—he hardly ever creates content! That he so often accuses others of bias and POV-pushing ironically exposes his own struggle with objectivity. I am going to start an RFC/U on Arzel the moment I find another user that will certify it, because I'm tired of seeing wholesale deletion of content backed by shabby interpretations of policy and personal attacks.- MrX 15:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's not just about adding and especially not about coatracking. A valid argument could be made that his removals are fully encyclopedic and the fact remains that the onus is on those adding negative information to use impeccable secondary sources. Media Matters is a highly partisan source.--MONGO 15:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Arzel has taken this to WP:RSN where he has taken the opportunity to accuse Bullrangifer again. And we use partisan sources frequently - they don't have to be 'impeccable', they do have to be significant enough to pass WP:NPOV. And, shock horror, we even allow liberal sources as well as conservative ones (calling it 'lefty' just shows political bias). Dougweller (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Doug, please do not make false statements against me. BullRangifer tried to Bait me on my talk page and then followed me to that page. Furhermore, I never use conservative sources, so don't give me that crap either. And this is not just a biased source, but an extrememly biased source with almost no other WP:WEIGHT for support and then reinserted by an editor that was following me around. You accept this behaviour? Really? What part of WP core policies am I violating here? Whar part of WP core policies are you upholding? Arzel (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say you used conservative sources. I often follow editors I'm dubious about. I sometimes notice that another editor I respect is concerned about someone and take a look myself. That's a good thing. I'm supporting RNS and NPOV. You are simply wrong about this. Dougweller (talk) 06:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic Ban

• Support Topic ban on Republican and Democrat articles, broadly construed. This is becoming disruptive. KonveyorBelt 17:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I get followed around by another editor and I should be banned from Republican and Democrat articles? FNC is news channel, so I am not even sure I understand this logic. Arzel (talk) 18:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Democratic, please: note the "ic". See Democrat Party (epithet). Drmies (talk) 18:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Ive always throught that oversold as an epithet. Democratic aligned groups, neutral sources regularly refer to "Democrat" or "Democrats" (The democratics? Is a democratic? sounds awful), including a plethora of uses that way in our current article, as well as the party itself http://www.democrats.org/ https://www.democratsabroad.org/ http://www.yda.org/ etc. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Please tell us what other epithets of groups that you do not belong to are "oversold". — goethean 19:02, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Grammar, dear Gaijin42: it's the use of "democrat" as an adjective that is deemed inappropriate. There is nothing wrong with "Gaijin is a card-carrying Democrat". I think we had this up at ANI, quite some time ago. Drmies (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I happen to agree with Arzel that the addition was inappropriate. Media Matters is a highly partisan body and should not be treated as an independent source and in this case it was also a primary source. This is a case of poor sourcing being used to support material unduly favoring a partisan view of a news channel. At the very least the material should have been rewritten given the nature of the source. Repeatedly reinserting it without any change is POV-pushing. While Arzel is overreacting a bit, he is not wrong to take issue with the blatantly partisan edits being made to that article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support Topic ban on republican/democratic American politics, broadly construed. I'm honestly astonished it hasn't happened already. Nformation 18:54, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• There are two issues here. The first is a content/sourcing issue regarding MMfA. This issue has been litigated endlessly at the reliable sources noticeboard, and it might be useful to review those discussions rather than re-arguing the case here. I'll break my own rule and offer my 2 cents here: MMfA is clearly a highly partisan source and should be used sparingly and cautiously, if at all, like any highly partisan source.

  The second issue is a conduct issue. In that regard, like Noformation, I'm surprised that Arzel hasn't been topic-banned at some point in the past. He edits Misplaced Pages solely to advance an ideological agenda. Really, check his contribution history, and go back as far you want: that's all he does here. He's also a dedicated edit-warrior who routinely games the system by going right up to 3RR (and occasionally over). There was clear community support for a topic ban from Tea-Party related articles, although that noticeboard thread was subsumed into the related ArbCom case. He's a classic tendentious agenda-driven edit-warrior. MastCell  19:16, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Okay, now I strongly support a topic ban. Arzel, what part of "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective" are you not understanding? Erpert 19:18, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• What part of "reliable" are you having trouble understanding? It is a non sequitur to speak to bias before reliability is established. In this case, it is not. Quite the opposite, in fact. Roccodrift (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose sanctions against User:Arzel. As User:MastCell said, Arzel is correct about MMFA. I see no evidence that Arzel's other edits have not been equally correct, even if they have focussed on improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of the conservative rather than liberal POV. There are plenty of editors and admins who already focus on the latter type of cleanup tasks.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• You're conflating the two issues which I took pains to separate, and thus misrepresenting what I said. My personal view of MMfA as a source is, like Arzel's, pretty dim. That's a content issue, to be solved by the usual means. There is no excuse for Arzel's conduct in addressing this dispute, which consists of edit-warring up to 3RR and then posting a risible accusation of tag-teaming. And this isn't an isolated incident; it's his M.O. MastCell  19:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not misrepresenting anything. Either Arzel is correct about MMFA or incorrect, and your comment (which anyone can read directly above) suggests the former. Feel free to clarify your comments, but you might try doing so without flinging around accusations of misrepresentation.

There is no Misplaced Pages policy or guideline regarding tag teaming, as far as I know. So I would advise caution before dismissing such complaints as laughable. According to WP:Tag teaming, one form of it is to coordinate edits so as to avoid 3RR, and that's exactly what Arzel has attempted to document.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Such an accusation (tag teaming) may not have a guideline, but it is covered by our Assume Good Faith policy. Such an accusation, without clear proof of such coordination, is wrong and a blockable offense. Arzel can reasonably expect their edits to be watched by those who have the same articles on their watchlists. POV warriors should be watched, and when their editing violates policy, should be dealt with, both through their edits being reverted, and them being issued appropriate warnings. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Regarding its status as a RS, the discussion at RS/N is confirming it is a RS, especially for this situation, where other RS are backing them up and citing them. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I think a topic ban would need to be more carefully defined. The proposed ban would not necessarily prevent the same tendentious reverting on articles like Fox News Channel controversies, Phil Robertson, Megyn Kelly, Hydraulic fracturing in the United States, Focus on the Family, PPACA, Ayn Rand, Ender's Game (film), etc.- MrX 19:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• A reasonable scope would be "American politics". Such a topic ban would provide an opportunity to see whether Arzel has any interest in this project beyond its potential as an ideological platform. MastCell  19:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, that does seem reasonable, provided that it is broadly construed to include any article that could be interpreted as having any political aspect to it.- MrX 20:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Agreed. Arzel may have potential in other areas, but here their personal political POV controls their editing, and their failure to understand RS is problematic. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban for Arzel as groundless and retaliatory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roccodrift (talk • contribs) 21:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support sanctions against QuackGuru, as his editing is reckless, disruptive and tendentious. Roccodrift (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support a permanent topic ban of Arzel from American politics, broadly construed, per my earlier comments.- MrX 20:05, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment MMfA is an advocacy organization and is not independent of the subject. It should be treated as a primary source. Instead, we should be using third-party reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, they're a media watchdog group, which kind of makes them a de facto third party.- MrX 20:13, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Hear here, the fact that they proffer a critical view of a favored source does not disqualify them as RS, in context. if attribution is deemed necessary for controversial commentary, that would appear to be a separate issue.

Since FOX News is itself a recognized partisan news service, it is to be expected that organizations opposing their views would appear. Where does Misplaced Pages stand, between them?--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 20:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. It's rather odd that Arzel wishes to remove opposing POV from an article about FNC's controveries. Without such sources and content, there would be not article, but that would certainly gratify Arzel. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

@MrX: Only comment, no, they arn't a media watchdog group. Their own about page says, "Launched in May 2004, Media Matters for America put in place, for the first time, the means to systematically monitor a cross section of print, broadcast, cable, radio, and Internet media outlets for conservative misinformation - news or commentary that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda - every day, in real time."--v/r - TP 20:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't like their POV but doesnt that page back that they are a watchdog group? (albeit one that only watches one side) Gaijin42 (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(edit conflict)If our article on them is correct, they are "dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation". Advocacy organizations are not reliable for anything but their opinion in articles about or related to themselves. Just stick to third-party reliable sources. It's not hard, guys. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, but FOX News spins bills itself as "Fair and Balanced", so it's not an advocacy group. — goethean 20:52, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

This sounds like a content discussion and not proper for this page, but it's a primary source. Such a source could be reliable if presenting a POV attributed for stating the opinion of MMfA, but such would need to fall into WEIGHT for the overall coverage of controversies and have it relayed in multiple secondary sources to make it worth any mention. Then you may need to provide a balancing pov that covered other polls regarding media bias. Morphh 20:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Huh? The argument to support a topic ban is weak at best. If that is the goal then I suggest an RfcU first so that diffs can be presented to support such a measure.--MONGO 21:29, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• This will happen sooner or later. Mastcell's characterisation is spot on. His allies will cry foul, but if those views are recognised for what they are… Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Just so we're clear. It is sad how obviously partisan the voting is on this otherwise. The people supporting a topic ban are seemingly without fail people whose views would be to the left of Arzel.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • To be fair, when you are on an extreme end of political leanings, most people will be to one side of you. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Being Republican is at the extreme far-right in the context of Misplaced Pages editors, but (being there myself) I don't think it's really adequate justification for hounding such people into oblivion, or mobbing them with generalized grievances. Arzel is owed a debt of gratitude for not letting the other side trample NPOV at will.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
      • Fortunately, no one is suggesting that Arzel be banned because he's a Republican. The issue is that he's a habitual edit-warrior who treats Misplaced Pages as an ideological battleground. The belief that one's political views are under-represented on Misplaced Pages does not excuse tendentious editing. MastCell  07:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
        • People are suggesting that he be banned from Republican- and Democratic-related articles. If Arzel encounters multitudinous editors who are constantly slanting such articles primarily in one direction, and Arzel seeks to counter it and seeks to promote NPOV, then we could certainly label him as a habitual edit-warrior, and remove him as an obstacle. Or, in a case like this, we could thank Arzel for coming to this notice-board instead of perpetuating an edit war, and thank him also for correctly identifying MMFA as a suboptimal partisan source. In other words, this is far from a black-and-white situation. Even if it is decided that Arzel is a tendentious edit-warrior (with which I disagree), I have zero confidence that Misplaced Pages would deal with the editors on the other side in an evenhanded manner. Additionally, Misplaced Pages should think seriously about how it can reduce edit-warring, for example by getting more serious about its consensus policy; when there is consensus that a part of a Misplaced Pages article (that previously was supported by consensus) needs improvement, then that is no justification to start changing the article (following WP:BRD) until there is consensus about how to change it --- people who start doing so ought to be blocked instead of allowed to run rampant. A cynic might say that Misplaced Pages promotes edit wars so that Misplaced Pages management can then eliminate the side it likes least. Likewise, we often have editors edit-warring under the belief that some other policy takes precedence over WP:Consensus, but shouldn't the meaning and application of those other policies be determined (during the process of editing an article) by consensus?Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't consider myself a leftist by any stretch but that's the false dichotomy of American politics; from a worldwide perspective, American conservatism is pretty fringe and pretty extreme. Compared to Azrel I might as well carry a red card and be hung for treason, but in any modern, Western society I'm right in the middle. Nformation 00:02, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

If by "modern, Western society" you mean Europe, then I supposed you would be in the middle. Of course, Europe is on average left-of-center so being in the middle would still make you left-of-center. Suffice to say, your political biases are markedly different from those of Arzel and that is the case with the one who proposed the topic ban and others supporting it.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

What ever my political biases are they differ not just in form but in intensity. That is, I don't edit political articles and I really don't care about politics. My support of the topic ban is based on Azrel's behavior as a POV pushing SPA with an obvious agenda. And considering that most Wikipedians are not right wingers, any topic ban support against a right winger is likely going to be comprised of a majority of non-right wingers; what else is to be expected, that people on the right can only be disciplined by others on the right? In any case, that one isn't a right winger does not render their support unfairly biased nor moot, it just means that I'm not blind to the concerted effort of a few conservatives to present right wing perspectives as though they are in the mainstream of intellectual discourse, and to white wash what most normal people can see is in the extreme—it's false WP:BALANCE. And no, I don't just mean Europe. There are plenty of modern, "westernized" countries in South America, Central America, North America (e.g. Canada), the Indian Subcontinent, Australia, New Zealand, etc, in which I'm right in the middle. Even by American standards I'm basically a centrist so long as we aren't defining the moderate right as the tea party. That there exists extreme right wingers in the US who hold power does not shift the mean that far to the right for the rest of the world. Nformation 01:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: while some people are being specific about the target of the Topic Ban, others are not. The subheading is simply "topic ban" - does that refer to QuackGuru, Bullrangifer, Arzel - or all three? StAnselm (talk) 23:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment. I haven’t evaluated his edits enough to see whether they individually have merit or are POV violations and I remember ArbCom didn’t find any fault with his edits in the Tea Party case. I will say, however, that the pattern of practically only involve themselves in political controversies (mostly in the form of reverts) is concerning and something that the community should discourage; based on Arzel’s latest edits, I see few signs of Arze actually building the encyclopedia in the form of content building or useful maintainance. Iselilja (talk) 00:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

If his edits have merit, then what's the problem with him focusing on his area of interest and expertise? And if we're going to start discouraging people from focusing on political articles, I have no confidence that Wkkipedia would end up doing so in a politically neutral way.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

It’s not the fact that he focuses on politics that is a problem; but that he only involves himself in contentious articles/disputes. There is a lot of articles within the field of politics that could need improvement and that a willing and constructive editor would be able to improve without getting into conflicts all the time. Iselilja (talk) 00:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages would like to deal with a particularly contentious article "X" by saying that no one may make more than ten (10) non-minor edits to that article per week, or something like that, then fine. Everyone who exceeds the limit would get topic-banned. No problem. But to select particular editors for that treatment seems inapt.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:54, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as retaliatory. GregJackP Boomer! 00:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose all sanctions per insufficient evidence. Very few diffs have been provided; the accusations of tag-teaming don't seem to have any substance. Also close this thread since people have been supporting and opposing a very ill-defined topic ban. It has not been made clear who is supposed to be banned. Anyone who supports a ban is welcome to open a new thread with proper diffs. StAnselm (talk) 01:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban of Arzel on all subjects related to American politics, broadly construed (including talk pages, where much of their disruption occurs), per MastCell and several others. Arzel's focus isn't the main problem, but their consistent pattern of whitewashing by deleting properly sourced content, often using the bogus "biased source" excuse, which is against policy. We use biased sources here. Period. Without them we would have no articles about controversies, and we would be violating NPOV by not covering all significant sides of any controversy. Arzel simply lacks competence to edit because of their consistent failure to UNDERSTAND our RS policy, and consistent failure to LEARN when repeatedly told how to apply it. Having a political POV is okay, but when it controls their editing, as it does here, instead of letting the RS control it, we have a POV warrior, and we don't need anymore of them. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:59, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any topic ban of Arzel. Just noticed this in looking over the accusation against me. Normally I try to avoid this page since I'm not a particularly litigious toward fellow editors. What's going on here? Some sort attempt to purge politically conservative editors? Nasty business. Don't know the specifics of this situation but looking at BullRangifer's comment above I see that he's on one of his If you don't agree with me about Misplaced Pages policy you are not a true Wikipedian rants. To address his point. Sure, we can use clearly politically biased sources at times but that doesn't free us to ignore other rules and guidelines. We still prefer more neutral sources to less neutral ones for factual information and we still observe due weight in crafting our articles. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Nowhere have I said that you have to agree with me; just agree with policy. There are just some very fundamental policies and attitudes which are required of experienced editors which demonstrate that they have competence and are able to edit in an NPOV manner, none of which require using sources without a POV or bias. We use biased sources all the time. When in doubt, we attribute them and frame the content properly, but simply deleting them because they are "biased" (Arzel's favorite excuse) is not according to policy. That's policy he's disagreeing with, not me. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

NOPE. What you are really saying is agree with my understanding of Misplaced Pages policy and I have no reason to believe that your understanding of Misplaced Pages policy is any better than Arzel's. Badmintonhist (talk) 06:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Duh! Is there any other possibility? Can you name a single person on the planet who doesn't mean it in that manner, including yourself? The important point is that my understanding of policy seems to be backed up by most experienced editors, and it is the consensus of editors which creates and defines our policies. I've been around here (starting with a few years of wikignome IP editing before creating an account) long enough to build that consensus and define some of our policies, IOW I've been here since before some of these policies were even formulated. I can remember when there were less than 500,000 articles on the whole of Misplaced Pages, in all languages. It was a big day when the English Misplaced Pages passed the 200,000 article mark. For me it was great to be able to contribute in my English mother tongue, since my daily language had been (and still is) Danish for many years. Those were the days. Things were very different then. Now wikilawyering has taken over and yet we still have editors who are far from newbies, like you and Arzel, who still don't understand basic policies. You should understand these things. Dang, one should be required to pass a Misplaced Pages Drivers License exam before being allowed to drive here ! (sarcasm) -- Brangifer (talk) 07:24, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah the good old days!! Problem is being here from the beginning tends to induce feelings of OWNERSHIP that even great white hunters aren't entitled to. Badmintonhist (talk) 07:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: MMfA is a reliable source and widely referenced by other RS. It's the first time i read claims that MMfA would be biased (above by some users). MMfA is reporting on the content of Fox here and there appears to be nothing wrong with this study. Affords to remove information regarding content evaluation appears disruptive and i don't understand the point. If Fox wants to change their image in those regards they could do this. But hiding facts is just a lame way to enforce an agenda. Prokaryotes (talk) 05:10, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Although I agree, this is at WP:RSN and should be discussed there. This thread should probably be closed and an RfC/U started. Dougweller (talk) 06:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• I tend to agree, but the boomerang has been cast by Arzel (for the umpteenth time at various AN/I threads, all with him losing), and it has definitely circled round and hit him big time again. This time it really needs to end with a topic ban. We can't just drop this and allow him to continue. (BTW, the RS/N consensus is that Arzel is wrong, yet again.) -- Brangifer (talk) 07:31, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• That's a strange thing to say given that the RS/N discussion is trending towards it not being a reliable source. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, this has all become downright confusing, so let's start over and keep things separate (and Badmintonhist, your baiting really isn't helping). Erpert 08:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Oppose any topic ban of Arzel., media matters is about as fair and balanced as fox, using one to sling mud at the other is absurd. by his own admission been a drug user, who has been delusional and who reportedly is playing with guns and thinks there are assassins out to get him Darkstar1st (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

What is truly mind-boggling is that you think that adding that link and those comments contributes to this conversation. — goethean 16:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: topic ban for User:Arzel on political articles

• As listed above, I support a topic ban if not on all political articles, just Republican-centered articles. Biased sources are allowed on Misplaced Pages, whether s/he likes it or not, and s/he has gone to great lengths to challenge anyone who doesn't agree with him/her regardless of consensus; in fact, his/her starting this very thread appears to have made him/her yet another victim of the boomerang. Erpert 08:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

By the way, a simple glance at Arzel's user page shows that he identifies as male. StAnselm (talk) 08:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per the reasons I gave above.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 08:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment- A slightly different TBAN proposal is unlikely to be productive. I suggest closing this entire thread and using a structured RFC/U to present the case. I am going to start drafting something today.- MrX 13:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Arzel is an energetic advocate for what he sees as greater neutrality in politically charged articles, opposing the liberal/progressive assumptions that tend to pervade many of them. At base, that is the reason for this politically inspired proposed ban, not any supposed failure on his part to understand Wiki policies. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:13, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "Opposing the liberal/progressive assumptions"? That's exactly my point; Misplaced Pages is here to show all viewpoints, not just viewpoints that he (or anyone else) specifically likes. Erpert 19:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, well I guess I should be more explicit. By "liberal/progressive assumptions that tend to pervade" many articles I mean the tendency of many editors to accept liberal/progressive opinions, and descriptions of fact as the "norm" and thus to be far more hospitable to them than to conservative opinions and descriptions of fact. To be blunt, their tendency to push liberal/progressive sources and to suppress conservative/right-leaning sources. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose as retaliatory. GregJackP Boomer! 19:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing from University of Adelaide IPs

A few days ago, Gareth E Kegg reported longstanding disruptive editing from many IPs to Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan, and as a result the article was protected. It has become clear that this is not the only article targeted by this vandal, who is using IPs in Australia, many of them on the servers of the University of Adelaide.

Articles affected include Women in the United Arab Emirates, Addams Family Reunion, Thing (The Addams Family), Indian, Diana, Princess of Wales, Mercedes-Benz W140 and several others, all of which have seen repeated identical disruptive edits from the same IPs. IPs making these edits have included 129.127.54.164 (talk · contribs), 2403:7900:ADE1:A1DE:250:56FF:FEA6:3B1F (talk · contribs), 2002:817F:36A3:0:0:0:817F:36A3 (talk · contribs), 2403:7900:ADE1:A1DE:250:56FF:FEA6:404 (talk · contribs) 129.127.54.163 (talk · contribs), 129.127.54.168 (talk · contribs) (all tracing back to the University of Adelaide), 203.26.123.208 (talk · contribs) (tracing back to the Office of the Chief Information Officer in Adelaide), 203.122.223.123 (talk · contribs), 203.39.81.8 (talk · contribs), 150.101.89.130 (talk · contribs) (other Australian IPs) and many more.

It is evident from the nature of these edits (which have been repeatedly reverted by numerous editors) and the location of these IPs that these are all the woerk of one obsessive vandal, probably working or studying at the University of Adelaide. Is there any action which can usefully be taken to stem this time-consuming disruption?

Yeah… either semi-protection if it's just these articles being vandalized, or blocking if it's just these IP users who are abusive. Or a combination of these, if it's a whole range of users vandalizing a lot of articles. Epicgenius (talk) 18:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

There are several more articles, and an apparently inexhaustible series of IPs. So semi-protection may be a better option. But I wonder, since so many of these are from the University of Adelaide and one is from the state government, whether these institutions can/should be contacted about misuse of their service? RolandR (talk) 19:59, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I think that, from the list here, that some IP addresses can be at least rangeblocked (e.g. 129.127.54.161/29). Others would have to be plain old tag-and-bag blocks. Semi-protection may be appropriate to the articles most vandalized by these IP users. Epicgenius (talk) 03:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

IP editor 84.210.13.40

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP editor 84.210.13.40 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been making some rather inflammatory comments at Talk:Circumcision that do not appear to me to be in line with WP:TPG. In particular this editor has made very disparaging characterizations of other editors including:

• this "Tell me why you think you have the right to mutilate other bodies"
• this which includes "The editors of this article think it is okay to violate human rights"
• this comment of questionable relevance which includes "I am sure lots of children will agree to doing blow jobs if they are offered lots of candies"
• this comment that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of Misplaced Pages
• this comment adds "I have heard that there is lots of zinc in sperm. Maybe male Jewish doctors should start publishing more to their kids about the nutritional benefits of doing blow jobs."

I have left this editor a welcome message and explained my concerns at their User Talk, but as I am involved in the content at this article I'd like an outside admin to see if further action is necessary. Thanks... Zad68 18:17, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• There's evidence enough here for a 31-hour block to prevent further disruption; perhaps there is more that can or should be done. Drmies (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks Drmies, in particular I'd like a review of the IP's comments at the article Talk page with an eye to redacting personal attacks or other comments that are not in line with WP:TPG. Zad68 18:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

A charge of wikihounding**

Lukeno94 (talk · contribs) feels they're being hounded by Jaggee (talk · contribs). This all started with an ANI thread, now archived at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive824, "URGENT: potential serious copyright policy violation". Jaggee is a new editor who noted a possible problem in an article Luke had been working on; a somewhat lengthy thread with some animosities was closed without action toward either editor. As a result, Jaggee made various comments on their user page (now changed, but see this version). It is noteworthy that they took the supposed copyvio to ANI, claiming that's what WP:DCV suggested they do--but read Jaggee's talk page, "A second welcome to Misplaced Pages", where I remarked that this is the last thing it suggests, not the first. The only article edits Jaggee has made were to that particular article, Allard J2X-C-- Luke's work, and passed as a GA by Resolute. They they went on to comment on that article's talk page and on a related thread at WP:RSN ("Car racing websites"), pertaining to a DYK nomination by Luke. They made no other edits besides on my talk page and a few others, nothing in article space.

Further unpleasantries are found on my talk page, where you may find Luke being a bit brusque, accusing Jaggee of being a sock (that evidence does not yet need to be hashed out here, in my opinion). But essentially, it seems to me that Jaggee indeed has no other interest as of yet besides Luke's work, and that fits our definition of hounding, a type of harassment:

Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages.

Both LadyofShalott and I suggested that each find their separate corners in which to edit, so to speak, advice that Jaggee did not follow given their edits to RSN, for instance, and what I am asking for here is confirmation that this means that Jaggee should find another corner, not one where Luke is already editing. This shouldn't be a difficult thing to do given the large number of corners available. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'm perfectly happy to have myself and Jaggee kept separate, as I've said publicly a few times. Maybe that way I'll be able to return to editing in peace (or be able to take a break in peace, equally) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• (ec) I affirm my prior advice, which as Drmies points out has not been heeded. Luke seems to want to stay away from Jaggee, but the reverse is not true. Perhaps a formal interaction ban is what is needed. LadyofShalott 18:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• I had previously given Jaggee similar advice, likewise not taken. Perhaps indeed it needs to be set up as an editing restriction. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Luke feels they're the one being hounded?!

Luke on Jaggee at Talk:Allard_J2X-C yesterday: "Wrong, and since you're only here to disrupt this article, you've yet again failed to look into anything. " (and more of the same in the past).

I don't know Jaggee from a hole in the road. But I do know that we have AGF. They're also a new editor. Even if they have acted entirely wrongly and excessively over the very minor off-wiki copyvio issue in this article, they have acted reasonably over that issue. Their actions could be mistaken, over-reactions and mis-placed, but while there is the slightest belief that they are a new editor trying to find their way through the impenetrable forest of WP:ALLCAPS, then we have to give them leeway to get it right or wrong, as best they can. We DO NOT leap on them and accuse them of being bad faith socks, troll and Luke-taunters. Even if they are, we have a strong policy that we act to editors as being genuine, until it's demonstrated beyond doubt that they aren't. Yes, this lets us be exploited by the real trolls from time to time. It's also overall a key means for us to improve access for genuine new editors (which I still do believe Jaggee to be).

Jaggee: please find some motor-racing articles to work on that are some distance from Luke. I'm sure this will improve the editing experience for both of you.

Luke: please lay off Jaggee and act as if they're genuine. I can't ask you to believe this, but please act towards them as you would towards any GF editor. If they're not, lots of other people will spot it as well, so don't worry about it.

Andy Dingley (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• I refuse to act like I'm blind, deaf and dumb; which is how I would have to act to assume Jaggee was new. Everything they have done screams of a returning editor, and things well beyond your own involvement have furthered that case. Don't forget that other users have expressed their own doubts, or, in the case of User:Beyond My Ken, completely agreeing with my analysis of the situation. If Jaggee is a new editor, then I'm Bill Clinton. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Also, yes, I am the one being hounded. Everywhere they've visited has been either somewhere I've already contributed in, or something directly related to something I've been involved in. I haven't followed them anywhere. To claim otherwise is ludicrous. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Andy, you are essentially asking for the same thing I'm proposing here. That initial ANI thread, pshaw, not the biggest deal. It's the rest of it, the recent edits, that brought me here. If it hadn't been for those Luke wouldn't have had any reason to say anything but as it is, I think they are right to feel as if someone is breathing down their neck. Drmies (talk) 19:37, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

This is a very one-sided account of my, so far, short career as a registered Misplaced Pages editor.

On my first day, I spotted a potential copyright policy violation in Allard J2X-C. My first edit, a nervous and hesitant attempt, to alert those responsible to what I thought was a serious problem in that article, was totally reverted - as "Unconstructive and unhelpful."! Determined to right the wrong, and after reading through numerous paragraphs of dense policy text, I stumbled across the suggestion that, if the "contributor has been previously clearly warned of copyright infringement but persisted", as was clearly the case here, the contributor should be "reported for administrator attention to the administrators' incidents noticeboard" - which was exactly what I therefore did - with my second edit.

One well informed administrator, ignoring the pleas from those ignorant of copyright principles and without even a working knowledge of the applicable Misplaced Pages policy, did take the initiative - and swiftly purged the article of the dodgy material, thus vindicating my action. Note that Lukeno94 continued his fight to keep it though.

What followed was an astonishing series of personal attacks against me, including a tirade of irreverent bile peppered with puerile profanities from Lukeno94. I won't quote them here, but here are links to a few of them: , , , .

Upon viewing further results of a search of links to mulsannescorner.com, I came across discussions about another articles (Template:Did you know nominations/Lavaggi LS1 and ) which also involved Lukeno94. Having seen the comments about the ureliability of the website, I added it to this discussion. That addition was swiftly pounced on and bad-mindely removed by Lukeno94. I added it back the next day, convinced I was right, but was again swiftly reverted by Lukeno94 (note the inflammatory summary). Another editor restored my point, vindicating my action.

Lukeno94 seems to be paranoid that I am "hounding" him. I AM NOT, I don't know (or care to know) him from Adam. What I am doing is highlighting poor use of poor references, nothing more. And I am beginning to regret signing up now. But this storm in a tea cup has aroused suspicions of cover-ups and back-scratching too, and I am not going to be intimidated it. Lukeno94 seems to be here to boost his ego, not to create great, policy compliant, articles, and I think he needs a serious slap on the wrist for reacting so badly when his infallibility is challenged. Jaggee (talk) 20:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

If you stay away from each other, and agree to report any issues like the previous copyright issue to an uninvolved administrator, we can put this to bed pretty quickly. Nick (talk) 20:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

My only interest, so far, is the use of the mulsannescorner.com website as a reference, whether Lukeno is involved with it, or not. Jaggee (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Plus, I'll happily contribute via an intermediary - if you can name one or tell me where to find one. Jaggee (talk) 20:46, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Jaggee, if I have to put together a comprehensive report of how you are clearly a returning user here just to abuse me, then I will do so. Until then, you can drop the lies like the one about how you came across the DYK nomination; you didn't edit for four days, and yet magically cropped up again to appear there. Just like you've lied to several admins; claiming you want no further part in this and would disengage. If you want me to take you apart piece by piece, then I can put together a case that will make it obvious that you are not legitimate. I have an idea of a couple of people who you could be, but that doesn't actually matter. I never claimed to be infallible; in fact, at the very beginning, I stated that had you actually come to talk to me with the issue, then there would've been no problem. Instead, you didn't, and you've made it ever more apparent that your claim to be a new user is a flat-out lie. And I'm not even the one who initially used the term "hounding". "contributor has been previously clearly warned of copyright infringement but persisted" is a flat out lie as well; I received no warning, and in no way can a template in an article count as a warning; but then you know that already. Just one more example of your lies. I've made thousands of good contributions here; you can justifiably claim one, so who is the egotistical one, acting as if they know better than everyone else? Is it myself, who has admitted to mistakes, or is it the "new" user who acts like they know policy inside-out and has only ever edited in things involving me? I wonder.
• And claiming that to be your only interest is a lie. Claiming that I have some involvement in the website is beyond a joke. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

That is nothing more than additional unnecessary, and to be ignored, intimidation. And no, you can't convince us that I am accusing you of being involved with that website, just of being involved with some of the articles that have used it. Calm down - stand back and look at look at my modest contributions again - then review your (over)reactions. Perhaps you do need a break from this. Jaggee (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I think both of you need to stay away from each other as much as possible. While Luke is obviously frustrated by the fact that Jaggee, currently a single-purpose account, is stalking him (which can be verified by a quick look at the latter's contribs), Luke has also been rough towards Jaggee as evidenced by his comments regarding the latter. Epicgenius (talk) 04:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• I'd be perfectly happy for that to happen (particularly when I'm not dangerously overtired, like I was yesterday). I have no problem with genuine editors bringing up issues in things I've done; but I strongly object to this SPA. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

@Jaggee: - either disengage and edit in other areas, or you will be blocked as a disruptive single purpose account. Your smug, patronising tone towards Luke is not welcome here and is unnecessary. I'd suggest giving you a week to demonstrate you're happy to edit constructively without following Luke around or editing the same content (although I'm going to stop short of a full topic ban since we don't really know your editing interests). If we don't see any evidence you're capable of normal editing, I'd propose we indefinitely block your account.

The issue you raised has been dealt with and resolved, administrators are aware of what has happened and Luke will undoubtedly take more care in future not to link to a potential copyright violating content, so there's no need for further action. If you do have any other issues you wish to report in connection with Luke, I'm happy to handle them as an uninvolved administrator. Nick (talk) 12:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like nothing more than gratuitous victim blaming. This is not a "single purpose account", in your sense anyway. This is an account that, after spotting, and reporting, a violation, has been blamed, victimised, vilified and dragged through the streets. And for those reasons alone, I have not had a chance to spread my wings, yet, and now you seem to be seriously suggesting they be clipped, and an artificial restriction applied, because another editor cannot control his own temper and behave civilly towards someone who has criticised his work here.

Btw, thanks for the offer to handle the issues with Lukeno - perhaps you will look at the other unresilved issues that I have already raised. Jaggee (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• We've had plenty of people contribute here saying that Jaggee should disengage from me; can someone wrap this up with some kind of binding solution? I really don't care if the ban is one way or two way; I just want to be able to contribute effectively in peace, or actually take a break. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:30, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • It's probable that Nick's warning above is about the best you're going to get at the moment - but you've now got an uninvolved admin keeping an eye on his editing, which should help. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Propose interaction ban between Jaggee (talk · contribs) and Lukeno94 (talk · contribs) (listed alphabetically) to expire 30 days after imposition.

• Support as proposer. As a general rule, I don't think ibans are the best tool in the wiki toolbox -- hence the suggested expiration date -- but I think one might be useful in this situation. NE Ent 21:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support interaction ban, but make it longer (probably three months initially, I wouldn't entirely be adverse to an indefinite one), and obviously clarify that this means Jaggee needs to not snoop around my edits and attempt to create more drama, not that it just means they cannot contact me, or directly edit an article/article's talk page that I have already edited, or have written. Obviously, the same would happen in reverse. Anything to remove potential loopholes that they could use to carry on the abuse that has genuinely been making my life a misery for the last few days, and has taken out all of the enjoyment I had editing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as that would be pandering to the wish of the bullies. I found fault, and am being vilified as a direct result. The main aggressor here would, in effect, be protected against further similar, vindicated, scrutiny. Jaggee (talk) 22:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikihounding by User:Sobiepan

User:Sobiepan follows and removes my edits within seconds (e.g., please take a look at his last 100 edits, most of them are removals of edits I made ). Gives no explanation for his behavior and removes all kind of warnings from his talkpage . HerkusMonte (talk) 21:11, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Please check the contribution of this user... https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/HerkusMonte&offset=&limit=500&target=HerkusMonte That will explain my edits... ---Sobiepan (talk) 21:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:HerkusMonte/Archive_1

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:HerkusMonte/Archive_2

...and his aggressive and offending behavior...--Sobiepan (talk) 21:15, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

A link to my archived talkpage - what is this supposed to say? Sobiepan started hounding me right after I sent him a "Gdansk vote notice" about the practice of double/foreign names regarding towns in Poland. HerkusMonte (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Diffs? The archive shows us nothing, although a look at your contributions shows a blanket unexplained reversion of helpful contributions (like this, mostly removing the German language translations) while completely ignoring warnings. Admiral Caius (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Edits made by HerkusMonte are not helpful. Its your POV. BTW the Gdansk vote ends in no consensus.--Sobiepan (talk) 21:41, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

And it's just as unhelpful for you to be removing these additions all over the place without discussing your removals. For the lazy: Sobiepan wants to keep the German names for locations that are now within modern Poland out of the locations' articles. Much of HerkusMonte's work appears to be adding these names. I literally couldn't care less about German names for what are now Polish towns, but merely reverting the additions and not attempting to discuss this with the other editor is disruptive. 205.166.218.66 (talk) 22:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree, but the questions is: why is he doing that? His edits are not in good faith. Please see his contribution and talk page.--Sobiepan (talk) 22:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)--

This is not the case of wikihounding. Wikihounding is personal retaliation by meritless contesting conrtibutions at random. In this case it is clearly localized content dispute similar to Gdanzig. While Sobiepan should have started discussion somewhere instead of reverting German name everywhere, this is not a civility/personal attack issue. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:03, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

P.S. this kind of communication by HercusMonte was hardly helpful for content dispute. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Thats the reason why I removed his comments (warnings) left on my talk page.--Sobiepan (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Few examples of HerkusMonte problems with other users in the past:, , , ,

"while completely ignoring warnings. " - which is not prohibited, see - Interesting that you are doing the same only 6 min after your comments here... see: --Sobiepan (talk) 22:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Reverting every addition of the German name isn't constructive. The two of you need to actually discuss this. Discuss this on a talk page, go to WP:DRN, create an WP:RFC, whatever. Stop just blindly reverting these additions; at least provide some sort of rationale for why you're doing what you're doing. 205.166.218.66 (talk) 22:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The above does seem to echo a bitter taste of censoring for whatever the reason might be. What we feel individually as contributors or editors is not relevant in Misplaced Pages articles. The question is what the "reader" wants. A person, who perhaps has a German place name at hand, maybe found in personal historical records, will throw that place name in a search engine and see what it throws up. If Misplaced Pages can come up with the answer and/or additional information and say it is the former German place name for the now Polish village or town of... then that IS valuable to the reader. Nightsturm (talk) 06:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion HerkusMonte should be banned from editing on Poland related articles (which are 95% of his edits...). His mass edits seems to have nationalistic reasons... of what importance are the German names of small Polish villages (with few residents) which never played a role in the history? Of no importance for a reader--Sobiepan (talk) 07:24, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

It is a well-established practice (compliant with WP:PLACE) to mention the German names of towns and villages in Poland which had been part of Germany until WWII. I don't do this for "nationalistic reasons" but I learned here at wikipedia that many Polish nationalists would prefer to suppress such facts. All my messages had been removed by Sobiepan from his talkpage, he never gave a rational for his edits and is obviously not interested in any kind of discussion. Instead he continued and reverted my edits.

How exactly am I supposed to react when a user refuses to discuss or explain his edits, follows me around and blindly reverts literally every single edit I make? I would call that WP:Vandalism but just learned that I'm wrong. However, such kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:40, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Meanwhile Sobiepan has reported me for "vandalism" because I sent him messages and used his talkpage without his permission . HerkusMonte (talk) 09:15, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

towns and villages in Poland which had been part of Germany until WWII - Thats not correct. Before 1945 they had been part of several states including the Kingdom of Poland and Duchies which were ruled by the Polish Piast...--Sobiepan (talk) 11:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Example of HerkusMonte offensive behavior: He reverted my user talk page 2 times within 30 min without my permission and left aggressive comments, which should be considered as vandalism according to . After I removed his comment on my talk page:, he 1. attacked me , 2. reverted my talk page 3. reverted my talk page --Sobiepan (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Ok, this has become childish.

1. Regardless of the merits of the addition of German/Polish names, WP:BRD exists for a reason, so follow it;
2. If you accuse someone of vandalism when it's not, you're going to piss them off - so understand the definitions, please;
3. A good faith warning is NOT a personal attack;
4. When an editor removes a warning from their talkpage, that's explicit notice that it's been read - do not re-add it, and especially do not edit-war to re-add it

Neither of you have shone in this situation - in fact, you've both acted pretty dimly, and your sniping at each other on this very board is simply a continuation of the same. ES&L 11:05, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Just for your info, HerkusMonte accused me firstly of vandalism (including for reverts on my own talk page...)...--Sobiepan (talk) 11:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, I know that. My statements above are not directed at either of you individually, but both of you collectively. Learn from them and move on. Recognize that now you're both being watched now, so act like adults, and go forth and edit ES&L 11:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Still wonder how one should react, when your edits are reverted within seconds without any explanation and all warnings ignored. Regarding Sobipan's talkpage - I wasn't aware of WP:BLANKING, sorry for that. HerkusMonte (talk) 11:47, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you it is childish. HerkusMonte continuing the revert war today... which shows his real intentions: --Sobiepan (talk) 12:01, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes Sobie, you just proved that you're acting just as childishly. For frick sakes, would the both of you just STOP trying to get the last word in here, and go off and behave? This is NOT fricking rocket science. You've been told how to proceed - now proceed and shut up. ES&L 12:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

user:Arms Jones and abuse of non-free media

I have removed non-free files from Gallery of country coats of arms several times, and Arms has continued to re-insert them against our policy of non-free files in galleries, the user has show that they do not understand WP:NFCC the user neither needs blocked or given a clue. Werieth (talk) 21:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

These images are not non-free in the manner you mean. To use them in this form of gallery is fair use. Read the fair use information on the file page for each image. I do understand WP:NFCC; it seems you don't. If fair use is not deemed applicable for some of the images in this gallery, then the same goes for all of them and the gallery should be deleted totally. Arms Jones (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The files that I left are free, all non-free files where removed. Werieth (talk) 21:33, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The use of them in that gallery is fair use, even if the images would be non-free. Arms Jones (talk) 21:36, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's policy on non-free media is far more strict than fair use law. According to our policies the files cannot be used. Werieth (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Please explain why you do that interpretation of the policies, since that is not what the policies say, at least not explicitly. Arms Jones (talk) 21:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Kick it to WP: NFCR (Non-administrator comment) Whether the image is valid or not is not appropriate for this noticeboard; take it to WP: NFCR to discuss that. Otherwise, I see nothing actionable here. Admiral Caius (talk) 21:43, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

What is actionable is Werieth violating 1RR on image reverts. He is not permitted to revert more than once on images because of prior edit warring but nevertheless he did so on Gallery of country coats of arms. freshacconci talk to me 21:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• This is a clear case violation. WP:NFCR is kinda pointless, its just one user refusing to follow policy. Werieth (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

  This is in no way a "clear case" violation. Arms Jones (talk) 21:48, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Of course, this is an easy fix and doesn't require a ANI report, but someone likes drama. Any image on the coat of arms page that is not public domain can have a fair use rationale added. In the context of Gallery of country coats of arms, that is acceptable. The policy is not black and white as Werieth claims. There's always ways to work things out. Rather than deleting the images from the page, the rationale can be altered or added. The Canadian coat of arms file is a good example. It has a fair use rationale for one page. Simply copy that for Gallery of country coats of arms. WP:NFCC clearly says that is acceptable. Stating that using images in a gallery is limited does not make sense in this particular article, since it is a gallery, in and of itself. If Werieth doesn't like the article, he can take it to AFD. freshacconci talk to me 21:50, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• Adding a template to a file page isnt some magic way of ignoring WP:NFCC. Usage of non-free media in galleries has nothing to do with rationales. Werieth (talk) 21:53, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

"A file with a valid non-free-use rationale for some (but not all) articles it is used in will not be deleted. Instead, the file should be removed from the articles for which it lacks a non-free-use rationale, or a suitable rationale added." . Have you ever actually read that link you plaster everywhere? freshacconci talk to me 21:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The issue has nothing to do with rationales, That refers to WP:NFCC#10c, I am making reference to other WP:NFCC points (specifically 1,3,8). Yes if the only issue was 10c then you may have an argument, however in this case it has nothing to do with 10c and the other points. Werieth (talk) 22:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Again, reading comprehension. What I quoted is under "enforcement" and has to do with all the numbered points, not just 10c. Do you believe that because it falls right after the last numbered point? Seriously? freshacconci talk to me 22:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually because it has to do with rationales, which is what point 10 covers. Other points address different issues. Werieth (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Yup - Misplaced Pages:Non-free content is a guideline, not a policy. It states that "The use of non-free images arranged in a gallery or tabular format is usually unacceptable, but should be considered on a case-by-case basis. Exceptions should be very well-justified and alternate forms of presentation (including with fewer images) strongly considered." I'd say that 'considering' it needs to be done at WP:NFCR before anything else is done - the onus is on Arms Jones to provide a valid justification for use though. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I could have cited WP:NFCC#1,3,8 (policy) which is what WP:NFG tries to explain in those cases. Werieth (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

As has been pointed out to you by multiple editors umpteen times, NFCC is not black and white. There is room for negotiation but for the mall cop who likes to prattle on about "policy" without actually understanding it and is only interested in deleting stuff, I guess pointing it out again is fruitless. freshacconci talk to me 22:03, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Some areas can easily be negotiated, this is not one of them, This is a purely decorative article in which non-free files will not meet WP:NFCC#8 Werieth (talk) 22:31, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

According to you and your interpretation. Your interpretation is not the final word (I can't believe I have to actually say that). #8 reads in full: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Arms Jones is arguing that its omission would be detrimental and I agree with her. Again, we are talking about our individual interpretations. None of us, including you have a single voice in this matter. Stop throwing guidelines and policy around as if you have the only correct point of view because you definitely do not and your interpretation leaves much to be desired. freshacconci talk to me 22:40, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

How is removal detrimental to understanding the article text when that text consists of 43 words and zero sources? Links to the primary articles on the coat of arms would serve the same educational purpose (failing WP:NFCC#1), usage on additional articles fails WP:NFCC#3. Just because you prefer non-free eye candy doesnt mean that it is acceptable under policy. Werieth (talk) 22:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

If you don't like the article, take it to AFD. But I suspect it's the drama you really like. I've never worked on that article, so my likes or dislikes do not enter into it. You have violated 1RR, you had many, many other options to choose from when dealing with this, and the simplest and least argumentative choice would have been to add proper rationales. But again, the drama seems to lure you. Oh well. (And really, you do need to listen to pretty much everyone else that there are differences between policy, guidelines and in both cases, there's wiggle-room, (i.e. WP:IAR -- which is policy. D'oh!) freshacconci talk to me 23:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

To be fair to Werieth, based on past discussions on non-free galleries, he's probably right that this page fails policy and this would not be an exception case of allowing non-free galleries. But there is wiggle room and the point should have been discussed first before edit warring over it. --MASEM (t) 23:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The article is a gallery of the coats of arms of the sovereign nations of the world. To show the coats of arms of all the sovereign nations of the world there is encyclopedic and fair use, just like the use of flag images is in the correspondent gallery of flags and the use of portraits is on lists of people. Werieth is not reading the policies thoroughly or seems at least not interested in explaining the interpretation made. Arms Jones (talk) 22:00, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Such visual galleries (free or not) are generally not appropriate on WP in the first place; it harms accessibility and if there's no content going along with it, it's just excessive (per WP:IG); a link to a Commons category for the free CoA would be appropriate. And of course, the NFC side, this is a pretty cut and dried invalid use of non-free in galleries when it's just a giant index/navigation page without any contextual information. That said, it is not a 3RR exception from editing, and the matter should have been brought to NFCR to review first. Assuming NFCR closed as for removal of non-free, and Arms continued to reinsert, then Werieth would have reason to break 3RR per the consensus. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Thats why I brought it here, this is a clear case of multiple NFCC failures and a user who refuses to get the point. Instead of taking it further I brought it here. Werieth (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, as pointed out, fairly by others, NFG is not policy, so you shouldn't be edit warring, even if I'm 99% sure that at NFCR we would have agreed for removal. No NFCR has happened so this is technically edit warring without the appropriate NFC exception. --MASEM (t) 22:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Werieth, this is not a "clear case" of NFCC failures, and if you could look at it objectively I think you could see why. We have different opinions about how to interprete the Misplaced Pages guiedlines in this case and you still haven't been able to explain your point. You are just stating it is without wanting to explain why. You are even interpreting a part of the guideline as strict when it literally isn't. Arms Jones (talk) 00:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

For those interested, here is what Werieth says he agreed to when a recent AN/I discussion about his NFCC behavior was closed:

I will only remove a file once if it is a case where the removal is questionable or subjective if it is re-added Ill file a NFCR (aka 1R). However in cases where the removal isnt subjective (WP:NFC#UUI#14, NFCC#10c,#9 and other similar cases) multiple removals are often needed before the user re-adding the file gets the point. I think this is a very reasonable middle ground where both sides can move forward from there. Werieth (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

He made that statement in response to a request for clarification from Slim Virgin. The AN/I thread is here. It was closed by Mark Arsten with the statement:

Werieth has agreed to limit himself to one revert and then take the issue to NFCR except in exceptional cases, and Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Betacommand has been opened. It does not look like any other admin attention is needed at this point, so I'm closing this. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:09, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 10:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Some rationale

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia which may have articles about everything which has notability. Every independent country in the world is notable enough to write about. I think everyone would agree on that statement.

The most prominent symbol of an independent country is its coat of arms. It may not be the most well-known symbol (that is normally the flag), but it is arguably the most prominent, as it stands for the government and its power, is displayed at central government buildings, at embassies, at border crossings, on official stamps and on the cover of passports etc. So I think the coat of arms of an independent country is notable enough to be displayed on Misplaced Pages. To display these coats of arms together and with links to the articles about each one of them is what an encyclopedia should be about, in my opinion.

Then of course, we have the matter of images and image copyright, which, according to some, should prevent us from showing some (but not all) of the coats of arms together with the others. So, in that case, should we display the coats of arms in other ways than in images? We could, since in heraldry all arms are described in a blazon. We could rewrite the gallery to be a collection of written blazons instead. That would be equally fine for me, who is quite used to read and understand blazons, but would it be fine for the average reader? I think not. So there is a reasonable and fair reason for this gallery and for it to display all the national coats of arms of the world. Arms Jones (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

"The most prominent symbol of an independent country is its coat of arms" Very few people care about a country's coat of arms - in fact, only people interested in coats of arms in general do. In actuality, the most prominent symbol of an independent country is its flag, and the majority of the people in the world who have ever considered the question would, I think, agree with that. (Not that the majority of people in the world would recognize the flag of any particular country, except for a few very prominent ones.) In any event, you're operating from an extremely skewed POV regarding coats of arms - in reality, no one (statistically speaking) cares about them. (Which is perhaps why, like academic disputes, people can get so riled up about them). BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 10:34, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no point in posting your rationale here, admins don't make decisions over such issues - take it to Misplaced Pages:Non-free content review. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I was expecting Werieth to take it there, if someone would. Arms Jones (talk) 02:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that in general, with the "few exceptions" sort of writing in the policy, we as neutral admins need to assume the answer is "no" until your case is proved on the appropriate specialized discussion or noticeboard. As Andy writes, this is the wrong venue for that discussion. (edit) And, the burden of proof would be on you under the circumstances to show that the proper discussion board consensus was with you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:54, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

User:Lg16spears and disruptive edits

User:Lg16spears has been warned multiple times for his disruptive editing by adding poorly formatted website references which are frequently accompanied by poor grammar. This has been a months long problem that I recently reapplied myself to trying to fix and there has been no change in his behavior. I think the only way to get him to change his behavior is to use temporary blocks. Hopefully one block will be enough to get him to correct his behavior Spidey104 00:30, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• I agree that this user presents some problems. I have no solution right now other than the old "block for refusing to talk", and I'm not feeling that at present. I hope someone else has better suggestions or more will power. Drmies (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

WP:AGF - WP:NPA

Huldra has been attacked by user:Ronreisman (with some clues about a potential export or tag team) on his talk page: after she warned him to take care with WP:1RR. Ronreisman :

• "given the infamous reputation y'all have on the internet."
• "I'll take this as confirmation that y'all do, in fact, work together to suppress and distort facts in the service of propagandistic POV."
• "You sound like a spider, daring a fly to enter a trap. Thanks for the invitation."

I add he had already been informed very kindly about WP:1RR : here and that I was myself attacked the same way by him 4 weeks ago:

• "@Pluto2012 : You disruptively reverted my edit because you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia articles by improperly suppressing relevant and well-sourced information in order to promote your own partisan goals."

I complained of this to him (next edit :) "And you insulted me strongly, violating WP:AGF." but he considered himself as acting right:

• (edit summary) : "Dishonorable and dishonest action breeds disrespect.")

He went on (with Ykantor ) so I just left it and removed the article from my Watchlist.

There are other examples of misconduct in his edit summaries (in interactions with Hudra, Nishidani and I):

• Please stop POV-pushing, OR, propaganda on Misplaced Pages,
• Nish is also misrepresenting the refs;
• so that he is not misrepresented by misleading wording by a Misplaced Pages editor;
• Untrue info was introduced;
• Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article;
• Request to Pluto2012 to stop violating WP:AGF and WP:RS, and to cease pov-Pushing that is detrimental to the articles veracity and quality.;
• (...) propaganda when it actually praised the book's veracity;
• Reply to Huldra's misrepresentation of a referenced source (...) and discusses politically-motivated *untrue* accusations against this source;
• ...

Ronreisman doens't seem to understand that his behaviour is not acceptable and he doesn't mind about WP:AGF and WP:NPA and if he is not strongly warned to stop, there is no reason why he would do so as proven in his recent interaction with Huldra.

Pluto2012 (talk) 11:40, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Notification to Ronreisman. Pluto2012 (talk) 11:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

While is somewhat confrontational, I don't see problems in all those diffs you provide alleging misconduct in edit summaries. I suggest you try WP:AGF yourself. Toddst1 (talk) 13:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

You mean he is "Good Faith" when he performs these "Personal Attacks" and you claim that "Now, please stop the anti-Zionist POV-pushing, and please stop vandalizing the article" or "you are a politically-motivated propagandist who is corrupting and vandalizing WIkipedia" or "You sound like a spider, daring a fly to enter a trap" to someone after he made WP:1RR is in compliance with the 4st pillar of wikipedia.

Could you argue how I should "try WP:AGF myself" ? Pluto2012 (talk) 14:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Paid editing again

• InternetUser25 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Whisper (app) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This user looks very much like a throw away sock puppet of the type that have been used by paid editing agencies. The article it created looks like a PR piece, written in glowing terms, totally free of anything negative or critical. Newbies typically don't understand wiki syntax so well to be able to create a polished article like this in just a handful of edits. The article was promoted at T:DYK, generating millions of pageviews views of the blurb, a very substantial value of advertising. I have tagged the article with {{COI}}, and removed it from DYK, until concerns about neutrality are addressed.

I request a checkuser look at the account to see if it is related to any others, and if those others might also be engaged in forbidden types of paid editing (COI, non-neutral, advertorial writing). Thank you. Jehochman 15:02, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

"Millions" of pageviews? You mean hundreds? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

With a throwaway account like that, simply looking at diffs can't tell us which other accounts are associated with this one, but checkuser is more likely to work. bobrayner (talk) 16:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Demiurge1000: Jehochman definitely got his figures wrong, but typical figures are a few thousand. Matty.007 17:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The home page gets millions of page views per day, in fact, about 12 million. Each time the home page is loaded, the Whisper (app) is appeared in the DYK list. Whether the user clicks through is another matter. In any event, an appearance on the home page of Misplaced Pages is worth thousands of dollars.Jehochman 17:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Given there is no policy against paid editing this should not be at ANI, and the original poster should both know and, being an admin, properly model correct suspected sock reporting (i.e. WP:SPI). NE Ent 17:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I would point out that the account has broken policy - the obvious one being NPOV, and WP:SOCK seems likely too. We're not a bureaucracy; socks are often dealt with in other venues, including WP:ANI, rather than solely SPI - the latter is structured around cases where the sockmaster is already known. bobrayner (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The user disclaims any paid editing or socking. Unless a checkuser comes along and says otherwise, I have to accept the user's explanation. The errors in maintaining NPOV could just be a newbie mistake. That can be fixed with editing. Jehochman 18:36, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• comment: Mabye just extend the article if you think there is content missing? Prokaryotes (talk) 18:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Please send this to SPI. --Rschen7754 19:28, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

SPI is useless unless there is an account to file it under. A clear reading of this thread will indicate why that is not possible. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Anyone know what's happening here: 1990 FIFA World Cup

1990 FIFA World Cup There's a copy of File:Vandalism San Francisco.jpg there that blocks the lede and much of the top. I can't see how it got there or even why it's there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:50, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

It appears to be coming from the vcalendar class. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:54, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The file page states that more than 100 pages now have this image. -_- MercenaryHoplite (talk) 16:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I removed two parameters from the infobox and it was gone. I then restored the parameters and it was still gone. Why did it show up? Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:02, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

See this edit by User:DoomedToVanish (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).--Auric talk 16:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In this edit, Lawann is posting huge walls of uncited, biased text in the Violence against Indians in Australia controversy. The user is also threatening to report this to the media and to "shut down my account". I don't know if any admin intervention is needed at this point, but it sounds like a credible threat to me. Epicgenius (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Blocked per NOTHERE. GiantSnowman 16:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Russavia threatening to block evade

Following on from last week's discussion of whether Russavia's talk page access should be revoked, he's now threatening to evade his block to do something about some copyright issue. This is absolutely unacceptable, and it's now time to shut off his talk page access. I would do it myself, but I have a history of disagreements with him that I'm pretty sure would rate as involvement, so I'm requesting any other admin to. — Scott • talk 18:28, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Done. Jehochman 18:35, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Regarding the comment you left there, he is indefinitely blocked, not banned, so you may wish to make a correction. — Scott • talk 18:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

How exactly does suggesting he would sock to fix issues that need fixing warrant removal of talk page access? Jehochman's revocation seems based off him asking others to handle issues on his talk page, which has repeatedly failed to gain approval as a basis for removing talk page access. For what it is worth, I just dealt with the copyright issues Russavia noted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The consensus of the prior ANI discussion was that Russavia could maintain talk page access. Unless there's evidence the requests he's made on his talk page are specious, the facts that he has a) made the request b) waited a week for someone to take care of them indicate a willingness to abide by the block. It's most illogical in this context to remove talk page access and the most likely result is not that he won't ip edit, but rather that he'll ip edit sooner. NE Ent 19:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

This must be some kind of a joke, all he was suggesting to edit as IP to fix copyvio stuff nobody seemed interested to fix. This could be hardly seen as block evasion, especially if the report is made by a user having a dispute history with Russavia. --Denniss (talk) 20:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

No, that would most certainly be block evasion. We don't just pretend it isn't because one thinks the potential edit might be useful any more than we permit edit warring because one thinks they are right. Resolute 20:16, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that Russavia showed any concern over copyright issues prior to being blocked? Frankly, this sudden interest in the topic, combined with threats to evade the block to fix these issues looks very much like attention-seeking to me. And we all know how Russavia craves attention... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

He is an admin on Commons so it makes sense for him to have such concerns and I don't believe such concern over copyright issues is something that merely arose following his block here. Presumably, he would have just dealt with them himself with little fanfare prior to being blocked.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:06, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support revocation of talk page privilege for indef-blocked editor abusing it. As discussed previously, R. was on the knife's edge, and threatening to sock for whatever reason is sufficient to cut him off. No amount of Wikilawyering will change that. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: this is a classic example of us cutting off our nose to spite our face. If there's genuinely a problem (and reporting copyright issues sure as hell ain't it) then short temporary page protection until the issue resolves itself is the way to go, rather than permanent talk page and e-mail disabling is the way to go. Hell, it's an ineffective and stupid thing anyway, given all Russavia needs to do is ping, say, me or another editor via Commons, but at least this gets more eyes and is more transparent. Nick (talk) 22:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Admin help needed: one redirect, one move request

I reverted the db-g6 on this page, because it seems to be a controversial, non-admin closure on a move request. (I didn't participate in that move discussion, and am not sure what happens in cases of controversial, non-admin closures.)

Separately, related to several AFDs involving off-Wiki recruiting (see for example AN discussion), this seems like an unhelpful, even pointy redirect; "not getting any" was referenced in one of the AFDs.

I don't really know what to do with either of these, but they were raised on my talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:29, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Redirect

This one has been all over the place: Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:47, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Move request

Re: the Cannabis (drug) → Marijuana WP:Requested move debate, you cited "non-admin close, best have that reviewed" in your edit summary reverting Red Slash's edit. As I suggested on your talk page, since you appear to be the one who's not satisfied with the WP:RM discussion outcome and thinks a review should be done, it makes sense that you should initiate the process by requesting a WP:Move review. Msnicki (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, if you had mentioned WP:Move review on my talk, I would have gone there. But since I've never heard of the place, and you didn't mention it, here we are. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I closed the move request. Most of those who opposed the move stated their opposition in terms of it being less common or an Americanism, both of which are demonstrably untrue (as far as the sources show). Unless I am badly misreading WP:NATURAL, we choose even less ideal titles if they disambiguate naturally from other possible topics. Unless I am badly misreading WP:COMMONNAME, we choose the demonstrably more common title over, as one editor later commented, a title asserted by some editors to be preferred in certain technical fields. There is no policy or guideline to suggest keeping the article at Cannabis (drug) and two very good ones to move it. Regardless, we don't re-fight move requests at this venue in most cases, and only the most flagrantly misguided closes would be outright reverted. Red Slash 21:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards