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| :{{la|The Ashkenazi Jews/Khazarian origins theory}} – (<includeonly>]</includeonly><noinclude>]</noinclude>{{int:dot-separator}} <span class="plainlinks"></span>) | :{{la|The Ashkenazi Jews/Khazarian origins theory}} – (<includeonly>]</includeonly><noinclude>]</noinclude>{{int:dot-separator}} <span class="plainlinks"></span>) | ||
| :({{Find sources|The Ashkenazi Jews/Khazarian origins theory}}) | :({{Find sources|The Ashkenazi Jews/Khazarian origins theory}}) | ||
| :This myth is already covered thoroughly in two extremely long sections in the article ], in 1)] and 2)]'. The article's content can be found there and therefore the it is pointless. | :A fringe POV fork. This myth is already covered thoroughly in two extremely long sections in the article ], in 1)] and 2)]'. The article's content can be found there and therefore the it is pointless. If this article isn't deleted for some reason, then these sections will have to be. | ||
| :Important notes: The article was created recently and is solely is an attempt to promote a widely spreading theory often regarded as anti-Semitic and used for anti-Semitic purposes. The creator of the article, Nishidani, spreads this belief (that Ashkenazi Jews are "fake Jews") in other places, even in articles that have absolutely no connection to it, as he did in "Talk:Palestinian people" for example. When I added some criticism about this theory in the Khazars article, Nishidani kept removing it as others , but he eventually succeeded and created this page instead so that the former one won't be touched. More details about it can be found on ] and ] / ] if needed. Thanks, ] (]) 20:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC) | :Important notes: The article was created recently and is solely is an attempt to promote a widely spreading theory often regarded as anti-Semitic and used for anti-Semitic purposes. The creator of the article, Nishidani, spreads this belief (that Ashkenazi Jews are "fake Jews") in other places, even in articles that have absolutely no connection to it, as he did in "Talk:Palestinian people" for example. When I added some criticism about this theory in the Khazars article, Nishidani kept removing it as others , but he eventually succeeded and created this page instead so that the former one won't be touched. More details about it can be found on ] and ] / ] if needed. Thanks, ] (]) 20:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :<"delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the ]. | :<small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the ]. | ||
| *'''DELETE''' this fork. ] (]) 20:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC) | *'''DELETE''' this fork. ] (]) 20:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 22:45, 11 January 2014
The Ashkenazi Jews/Khazarian origins theory
- The Ashkenazi Jews/Khazarian origins theory (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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- A fringe POV fork. This myth is already covered thoroughly in two extremely long sections in the article Khazars, in 1)Khazars#Judaism and 2)Khazar#Ashkenazi-Khazar'. The article's content can be found there and therefore the it is pointless. If this article isn't deleted for some reason, then these sections will have to be.
- Important notes: The article was created recently and is solely is an attempt to promote a widely spreading theory often regarded as anti-Semitic and used for anti-Semitic purposes. The creator of the article, Nishidani, spreads this belief (that Ashkenazi Jews are "fake Jews") in other places, even in articles that have absolutely no connection to it, as he did in "Talk:Palestinian people" here for example. When I added some criticism about this theory in the Khazars article, Nishidani kept removing it as others reverted him, but he eventually succeeded and created this page instead so that the former one won't be touched. More details about it can be found on Talk:Khazars and Talk:Ashkenazi Jews / Talk:Ashkenazi Jews/Archive 8 if needed. Thanks, Yambaram (talk) 20:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.
- DELETE this fork. Mangoe (talk) 20:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
- KEEP.
- The proposer’s argument has no merit because he is totally confused, WP:AGF is violated, and he makes accusations that raise serious doubts about his editorial integrity. His assertions about how this page was created are deceptive.
- (1) The ‘myth’ (actually it is a theory) is not ‘covered thoroughly in two extremely long sections in the article Khazars, in 1) and 2).' This article's content cannot be found there and therefore the proposal is pointless and false.
- (2) The section of the Khazar page on Khazar Judaism does not mention the myth/theory, except for the briefest note reading at the end:'A popular, if in academic terms minoritarian, thesis holds that the Khazar Jewish population went into a northern diaspora and had a significant impact on the rise of Ashkenazi Jews.' That 'minoritarian' adjective means that academically, this is not taken seriously. Curious readers will come to this page to find out the details.
- (3) The section of the Khazar page on the theory of a link between them and the Ashkenazi (Ashkenazi_Khazar theories) is a minimalist account of the history of the controversy, and of recent genetic research, which is overwhelmingly sceptical of such a link.
- (4) This article was hived off from one singularly bad pastiche of newspaper comments made by Yambaram, who inserted it into the Khazar article, without justifying his edit on the talk page. Note that the Khazar page has a standard templat, which Yamabaram’s stuffing ignored. He took no trouble to justify his massive expansion, but, with a handful of others, edit-warred, one aim being to tip the article over the limits so that it would have to be split, destroying its formal, aesthetic and narrative integrity.
- (5)He had some backing,- not by experienced or constructive editors however, but after his disruptive edit (9kb of poor text into a 150kb text that is at the limit of article length) this was discussed and editors not given over to POV battles decided that it was inappropriate and destabilizing. This page was created in order to allow editors like Yambaram ample scope (and much can be written) to cover all aspects of the controversy and amass the extra critical detail. He has not deigned to improve this article. I had had to do the basic legwork. There is a huge amount of material that could be added to this. Half of the article here is Yambaram's own work, which he prefers to fix into the Ashkenazi Jews page, where it violates WP:Undue. The Ashkenazi are not Khazars, which is a fringe theory.
- (6) Yambaram accuses me of spreading a ‘belief (that Ashkenazi Jews are "fake Jews")’ here and elsewhere on wikipedia. This is an extremely serious sign of bad faith, and malicious misrepresentation. He has no diff to prove his contention, which constitues a violent personal attack on me, insinuating my work is motivated by antisemitism. If this charge is repeated, I will report him for a ban on this and related topics.
- (7) This diff is adduced to insinuate an extraordinary idea, that I am arguing ‘Ashkenazi Jews are "fake Jews". Where is that stated? Jews are Jews – I don’t even know what a ‘fake Jew’ is? That the origins of the Ashkenazi Jews are unknown does not mean they are ‘fake’. It means that historians are puzzled by the question: e.g. to cite one of numerous sources that say what Yambaram thinks is scandalous:
'Was the great Eastern European Jewry of the 19th century preponderantly descended (as is normally believed) from immigrants from the Germanic lands further west who arrived as refugees in the later Middle Ages, bearing with them their culture? Or did these new immigrants find already on their arrival a numerically strong Jewish life, on whom they were able to impose their superior culture, including even their long (a phenomenon not unknown at other times and places – as for example in the 16 century, after the arrival of the highly cultured Spanish exiles in the Turkish Empire)?) Does the line of descent of Ashkenazi Jewry of today go back to a quasi autochthonous Jewry already established in these lands, perhaps even earlier than the time of the earliest Franco-German settlement in the Dark Ages? This is one of the mysteries of Jewish history, which will probably never been solved Cecil Roth in Cecil Roth, I. H. Levine,The World History of the Jewish People: The Dark Ages, Jews in Christian Europe, 711-1096, Volume 11, Jewish historical publications, 1966 pp.302-303 p.303.
- There is a huge literature on the difficulties in their modern numbers compared to the exiguous populations attested for the Middle Ages throughout Europe, and in demography the 'expansion' is considered 'miraculous'. Some think conversion played an important role. These are all theories, and no one knows. In any case, a convert is not a fake, even if this is the only premise one is forced to assume from Yambaram’s extraordinary claim here. And please note that all this, unlike Yambaram's contention in the link used above, has nothing to do with the Khazars, whom I do not mention in that link.
- In short Yambaram has made a proposal that completely confounds the issues, just as his edits completely mess up pages that strive to be neutral, comprehensive, and to hew to very strict standards of scholarly reportage and source quality. Nishidani (talk) 21:23, 11 January 2014 (UTC)