Misplaced Pages talk:WADR: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 17:22, 16 January 2014 editBishonen (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,326 editsm →redirected to Wiktionary entry: tweak← Previous edit		Revision as of 03:29, 17 January 2014 edit undoNick Levinson (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users8,605 edits →redirected to Wiktionary entry: Replied.Next edit →
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	:::But I don't agree with your wish to preserve the ''appearance'' of the links — to keep them blue — by means of a meaningless soft cross-project redirect to Wiktionary. Since nearly all of the links will be in archives by now, I doubt their going red will spark any debate to speak of, though I suppose editing the pages to de-link them might have that effect. (No, I have no plans for de-linking those links; talkpage archives are full of redlinks; no big deal.) But anyway, since obviously there is opposition to my idea of deletion (= you oppose it), I can't speedy this redirect. Instead, I'll re-point it to the previous target, ]. If you revert me, I'll take it to ]. It's not really a needed or useful redirect at all. It was created for the original ] essay, which no longer exists. ] \| ] 16:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC).		:::But I don't agree with your wish to preserve the ''appearance'' of the links — to keep them blue — by means of a meaningless soft cross-project redirect to Wiktionary. Since nearly all of the links will be in archives by now, I doubt their going red will spark any debate to speak of, though I suppose editing the pages to de-link them might have that effect. (No, I have no plans for de-linking those links; talkpage archives are full of redlinks; no big deal.) But anyway, since obviously there is opposition to my idea of deletion (= you oppose it), I can't speedy this redirect. Instead, I'll re-point it to the previous target, ]. If you revert me, I'll take it to ]. It's not really a needed or useful redirect at all. It was created for the original ] essay, which no longer exists. ] \| ] 16:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC).

			::::I believe that was already settled with the deletion of the misleading and policy-violating page. Some editors did like to use it but none of us were allowed to do so. We should not be relitigating when someone wishes to engage in that kind of conduct; once should be enough. I did defend my position ]. Informing readers after they have clicked the link does not adequately serve the purpose of informing them of what is meant when the link is supplied; that's important because we usually follow only those links likely to help us and linking "with all due respect" does not appear to add anything the phrase does not already convey explicitly, which is the opposite of the semantic reversal some linking editors intend; if a criticism is meant, it is to be stated clearly to the reader with linking providing clarification (as when we say that a subject is not notable and link to a page on notability). Linking softly to Wiktionary is obviously not meaningless but Wiktionary did not support the reversal this link was meant to support and therefore viewing Wiktionary as a useless destination supports my point. Redirecting to the Wikispeak entry has the same problem as linking to the deleted essay. I'll look over the archiving angle you raise. ] (]) 03:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 03:29, 17 January 2014

redirected to Wiktionary entry

I softly redirected this shortcut to the relevant Wiktionary entry because where it was redirecting to made this shortcut a violation of policy and guideline as stated in the related MfD for a prior destination (now deleted) and not disputed regarding violations. The recent change in destination to another essay causes the same violations of policy and guideline. That a linker was not confused is irrelevant; what matters is the effect on the reader. Where links to the now-deleted essay or the other humorous essay premised on a semantic reversal are intended to inform anyone besides the linker of nonliteral usage, those links fail unless actually followed, for which there would be little reason or likelihood, thus the linking before the soft redirect was usually violative, which is cured by the soft redirection. In the event that linguistic evidence of a semantic reversal is sourced, the reversal can be added to Wiktionary at the shortcut's new destination. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:52, 10 August 2013 (UTC) (Corrected my link error: 17:56, 10 August 2013 (UTC))

Since this seems extremely important to you, per your input here and at the related MfD, I'll just delete this shortcut too. There's a limit to what we should do do to keep links on user talkpages blue, and a pointless cross-namespace redirect transcends those limits, IMO. All right? Bishonen | talk 13:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC).

I think that will result in a bunch of redlinks and reopen the debate, unless the plan includes delinking, which would be a lot of editing as there are about 58 pages linking to this abbreviation, and merely that editing is likely to reopen the debate after users see their talk pages being edited. Otherwise, I wouldn't object at all. Once the link was created and used, after the last debate redirecting to Wiktionary at least allowed or encouraged an appropriate use, namely adding a sourced definition of the sort some editors might believe exists in sources (many idioms legitimately exist without sourcing but Wiktionary requires sourcing and this phrase idiomatically relies on a reversal of meaning that is misleading or false in the contexts in which it was being invoked). If you have a plan for that, that would be fine. Nick Levinson (talk) 22:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not worried about reopening the debate. If you insist on soft-redirecting a shortcut that some people formerly liked to use, then I assume you're prepared to defend that action in debate. Obviously those people used it because it linked to a joke that they liked. Redirecting it to Misplaced Pages:WikiSpeak#WADR, as User:Johnuniq did, preserved the joke. As I understand it, you disapprove of that because you think the joke is offensive and the way people used the shortcut was inflammatory, am I right? I can respect that. Indeed, I'm far from wedded to the silly joke. On the contrary, I was starting to dislike it, which was one reason I requested that the original target, Misplaced Pages:Do not say with all due respect, be deleted.

But I don't agree with your wish to preserve the appearance of the links — to keep them blue — by means of a meaningless soft cross-project redirect to Wiktionary. Since nearly all of the links will be in archives by now, I doubt their going red will spark any debate to speak of, though I suppose editing the pages to de-link them might have that effect. (No, I have no plans for de-linking those links; talkpage archives are full of redlinks; no big deal.) But anyway, since obviously there is opposition to my idea of deletion (= you oppose it), I can't speedy this redirect. Instead, I'll re-point it to the previous target, Misplaced Pages:WikiSpeak#WADR. If you revert me, I'll take it to Redirects for discussion. It's not really a needed or useful redirect at all. It was created for the original Misplaced Pages:Do not say with all due respect essay, which no longer exists. Bishonen | talk 16:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC).

I believe that was already settled with the deletion of the misleading and policy-violating page. Some editors did like to use it but none of us were allowed to do so. We should not be relitigating when someone wishes to engage in that kind of conduct; once should be enough. I did defend my position already. Informing readers after they have clicked the link does not adequately serve the purpose of informing them of what is meant when the link is supplied; that's important because we usually follow only those links likely to help us and linking "with all due respect" does not appear to add anything the phrase does not already convey explicitly, which is the opposite of the semantic reversal some linking editors intend; if a criticism is meant, it is to be stated clearly to the reader with linking providing clarification (as when we say that a subject is not notable and link to a page on notability). Linking softly to Wiktionary is obviously not meaningless but Wiktionary did not support the reversal this link was meant to support and therefore viewing Wiktionary as a useless destination supports my point. Redirecting to the Wikispeak entry has the same problem as linking to the deleted essay. I'll look over the archiving angle you raise. Nick Levinson (talk) 03:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:22, 16 January 2014 editBishonen (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators80,326 editsm →redirected to Wiktionary entry: tweak← Previous edit		Revision as of 03:29, 17 January 2014 edit undoNick Levinson (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users8,605 edits →redirected to Wiktionary entry: Replied.Next edit →
Line 12:		Line 12:

	:::But I don't agree with your wish to preserve the ''appearance'' of the links — to keep them blue — by means of a meaningless soft cross-project redirect to Wiktionary. Since nearly all of the links will be in archives by now, I doubt their going red will spark any debate to speak of, though I suppose editing the pages to de-link them might have that effect. (No, I have no plans for de-linking those links; talkpage archives are full of redlinks; no big deal.) But anyway, since obviously there is opposition to my idea of deletion (= you oppose it), I can't speedy this redirect. Instead, I'll re-point it to the previous target, ]. If you revert me, I'll take it to ]. It's not really a needed or useful redirect at all. It was created for the original ] essay, which no longer exists. ] \| ] 16:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC).		:::But I don't agree with your wish to preserve the ''appearance'' of the links — to keep them blue — by means of a meaningless soft cross-project redirect to Wiktionary. Since nearly all of the links will be in archives by now, I doubt their going red will spark any debate to speak of, though I suppose editing the pages to de-link them might have that effect. (No, I have no plans for de-linking those links; talkpage archives are full of redlinks; no big deal.) But anyway, since obviously there is opposition to my idea of deletion (= you oppose it), I can't speedy this redirect. Instead, I'll re-point it to the previous target, ]. If you revert me, I'll take it to ]. It's not really a needed or useful redirect at all. It was created for the original ] essay, which no longer exists. ] \| ] 16:47, 16 January 2014 (UTC).

			::::I believe that was already settled with the deletion of the misleading and policy-violating page. Some editors did like to use it but none of us were allowed to do so. We should not be relitigating when someone wishes to engage in that kind of conduct; once should be enough. I did defend my position ]. Informing readers after they have clicked the link does not adequately serve the purpose of informing them of what is meant when the link is supplied; that's important because we usually follow only those links likely to help us and linking "with all due respect" does not appear to add anything the phrase does not already convey explicitly, which is the opposite of the semantic reversal some linking editors intend; if a criticism is meant, it is to be stated clearly to the reader with linking providing clarification (as when we say that a subject is not notable and link to a page on notability). Linking softly to Wiktionary is obviously not meaningless but Wiktionary did not support the reversal this link was meant to support and therefore viewing Wiktionary as a useless destination supports my point. Redirecting to the Wikispeak entry has the same problem as linking to the deleted essay. I'll look over the archiving angle you raise. ] (]) 03:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)