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Compliance table

The table still states on the top left it holds 2013 values of the winter 2013 report. But the values appear to be mostly 2014 values from the spring report, and some 2013 values from the spring report mixed in. Ambi Valent (talk) 12:25, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

EDP

"Excessive Deficit Procedure" and the abbreviation "EDP" don't seem to be introduced very clearly. I find the appropriate explanation of the abbreviation "Excessive Deficit Procedure (EDP)", but only after the term and the abbreviation have already been mentioned separately several times. And both are mentioned in passing before there is any sort of explanation of what is meant. I haven't been following the development of this article, so I don't know if this came about by subsequent re-arrangement or other editing. --Boson (talk) 10:37, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

"constitutional amendment"

At the moment, if a constitutional amendment is planned, that cell of the table is colored green, whatever its implementation status. This might have to do with the fact that constitutional amendments don't have the 1 year deadline… Now that most of the implementation laws present, shall we use the red (implemented)-green (not implemented) or something else (yellow-green)? L.tak (talk) 11:35, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused, which of the states listed as having a constitutional amendment haven't implemented it yet? TDL (talk) 20:28, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

No idea, I just assumed they wouldn't as constitutional amendments often take a lot of time; and we have no references to the projects changing the constitution…. But maybe I am seeing something wrong? In that case it is just a referencing requirement maybe…. L.tak (talk) 21:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I checked… Some had it already in; some implemented, but for Spain its unclear and for slovakia it seems to be just a plan… L.tak (talk) 21:55, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, of the linked sources at the top of the column, this says Germany, Austria, Poland, Hungary, and Spain have the provisions in their constitution. (We don't list Austria or Poland, but do have Italy, Slovakia, Slovenia.) This gives (of the eurozone states) Germany, Italy, Malta?, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Spain. There might be some useful info in this. TDL (talk) 22:23, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The dbresearch source and the european parliament agree on: Germany, Italy, Hungary, Spain. Slovenia and Slovakia may have passed the constitutional amendment laws, as indicated by dbresearch and this. Malta is supposed to have a constitutional amendment, too, but no source supports it has been implemented, hence the red. Austria has an ordinary law and may get it in the constitution, too, but again no source shows that this has happened. Poland has it in the constitution but during the discussion for ratifying the treaty it was noted that the existing constitutional passage does not implement fully the treaty provisions, hence the "no".

It's quite difficult not only to find out if the countries have passed relevant laws (this will become easier as time passes by and there's more interest), but also to judge if these laws are adequate enough or not... And, I don't mean for us to judge it, but even for the experts or the sources. Essentially, it's again up to the treaty's safeguard clauses to be used to judge this. Again, because this is essentially how almost-EU legislation is put into national laws, some variation is allowed. For these reasons, I'm also against the change into "More stringent rule already in constitution", as it will not be easy to judge for other countries if their future constitutional amendments are more stringent than the treaty requires or not. This became known publicly for Germany and Hungary for different reasons, however, I am not sure what's the case with the other countries (Italy, Spain, Slovenia, Slovakia). Again, no one is entirely sure that their constitutional amendments fully implement the treaty or what the exact situation is. This is obvious for me from here from the entries of Slovakia and Slovenia. Apart from this, it is mentioned for example, that the debt-to-GDP ratio limit for Slovakia is constitutionally bound to be lowered from 60% to 50% over a period of 10 years starting from 2018. Wouldn't this qualify it to be tagged as "More stringent rule already in constitution"? However, other provisions may or may not have been implemented, or may have been implement in a country specific way... Therefore, I suggest we revert to using only "no", "ordinary law" (with ratio of majority) or "constitutional amendment". Heracletus (talk) 04:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

But if it is already in the constitution, the result is not a constitutional amendment. Could you suggest a wording that does not have this term? L.tak (talk) 07:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Uhm, no, not off the top of my head. However, it would still be a prior constitutional amendment. The other element is the degree of stringency, which I argued against saying it's not easily definable or measurable. Furthermore, I mostly intended to clarify the status of the implementation laws. I could think of such a phrase as "Already/Previously implemented ( law / constitution/constitutional amendment)". Another thing is that Portugal, for example, seems to not have made a law binding constitutionally, but passed with a 2/3 majority, which requires a 2/3 majority to be repealed... So the law has not an increased validity, but cannot also be repealed as an ordinary law would. :P And, this is why we include the majority used for the law in the table. Heracletus (talk) 17:48, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless the provisions were embedded in the first revision of the constitution, then it would not be a constitutional amendment. (I'm not saying that this is the case for any states, but in theory it is possible.) Why not avoid the issue by changing the heading of the column to "Implementation status" or "Implementation method" and use "constitutional"/"ordinary"/"none". Personally, I don't think that whether the provisions were implemented prior to or after the Fiscal Compact came to exist is significant enough a distinction to justfy cluttering the table.

And I agree with Heracletus' suggestion to drop the "more stringent" description of the law, as it is rather murky to decided what qualifies as "more stringent" and it really isn't all that important to the subject of the Fiscal Compact. TDL (talk) 19:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree as well; this implementation with organic law/ordinary law/constitutional law is good as far as I am concerned! L.tak (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Implementation column

Related to the topic above: wouldn't it make sense have the implementation column moved to the lower table with entry into force date; so all actions regarding implementation (form and date) is in a single table? L.tak (talk) 19:11, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

This may make sense, but let's wait for the opinion of other editors, too, before it's implemented. Heracletus (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes I agree that this is a good idea. I've been thinking about doing this for a while now, but never got around to it. If nothing else, the first table is much bigger so moving it to the lower table would make the article more manageable for smaller screens. TDL (talk) 19:26, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry that I went ahead and implemented it. Feel free to make additional changes. Heracletus (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Bulgaria

So there are a couple wrinkles with Bulgaria's ratification that I'd like some input on:

• They have declared themselves bound by Title III, but not Title IV. This raises the question of how we deal with them on the map. Do we just leave them yellow because they haven't declared themselves bound by the entire treaty, or do we use a separate colour? I'm leaning towards yellow for simplicity as there is already a lot going on in the map (though we should be exhausting the pink soon).
• The proposed declaration also says that they will apply Title III from January 1, 2014, and the depositary lists their entry into force date as 1 Jan 2014 even though they didn't deposit their instrument of ratification until a couple weeks later. Could this be an error, as the declaration doesn't mention anything about applying the full treaty from 1 Jan 2014? Looking at the relevant paragraphs from Article 14 we see:

"2. This Treaty shall enter into force on 1 January 2013, provided that twelve Contracting Parties whose currency is the euro have deposited their instrument of ratification, or on the first day of the month following the deposit of the twelfth instrument of ratification by a Contracting Party whose currency is the euro, whichever is the earlier."

"4. By derogation from paragraphs 3 and 5, Title V shall apply to all Contracting Parties concerned as from the date of entry into force of this Treaty."

"5. This Treaty shall apply to the Contracting Parties with a derogation, as defined in Article 139(1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, or with an exemption, as referred to in Protocol (No 16) on certain provisions related to Denmark annexed to the European Union Treaties, which have ratified this Treaty, as from the date when the decision abrogating that derogation or exemption takes effect, unless the Contracting Party concerned declares its intention to be bound at an earlier date by all or part of the provisions in Titles III and IV of this Treaty."

So a literal reading of that would suggest that the treaty entered into force for everyone on Jan 1 2013, Title V applied to everyone on Jan 1 2013, and the rest applies after ratification upon either the abrogation of their euro exemption or a declaration. So in that case, the rest of the treaty had already entered into force for Bulgaria and the ratification/declaration's sole purpose was the application of Title III. But if that interpretation is correct, then for non-euro states which didn't make a declaration nothing entered into force when they ratified. Interestingly, the treaty makes no provisions for anything applying/entering into force on the 1st of the following month for non-euro states (only for euro states), which is what the depositary has been using as the entry into force date (see Hungary for example). TDL (talk) 21:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I would stay with yellow.

And, your point is valid. According to the treaty's rules, and as it just dawned on me, the full governance provisions column on the implementation table could be 1 January 2013 for everyone as Title V is the governance provisions.

However, after a more careful reading, I think what the treaty says is that Title V applies to all euro states from 1 January 2013 (the day the treaty took effect), as well as the non-euro states which have already ratified the treaty. I base this on paragraph 4 reading:

"By derogation from paragraphs 3 and 5, Title V shall apply to all Contracting Parties concerned as from the date of entry into force of this Treaty."

Paragraph 3 concerns only euro states, while paragraph 5 concerns the non-euro states "which have ratified this Treaty". Paragraph 3 concerns first euro states which have ratified the treaty before its date of entry into force, and then euro states who have not ratified the treaty before its date of entry into force. All these, I believe, are the Contracting Parties concerned in paragraph 4.

Therefore, there is the question of whether Title V applies to all euro states since 1 January 2013, to which, I think, the answer is yes. There is the question of whether Title V applies retroactively since 1 January 2013 to non-euro states after they have ratified the treaty, to which again, I think the answer is yes. And, finally, the international law question of whether Title VI, which says that Title V can apply to countries which have not ratified the treaty, can apply to countries who have not yet ratified and which do not even apply the treaty provisionally.

Since Title V concerns governance actions, it's a bit hard to imagine how these past actions can be applied retroactively for non-euro states after they have ratified the treaty, but, yeah... It is certain though that Title V does not apply to non-euro states before they ratify the treaty...

Always referring to signatories/acceders... Heracletus (talk) 03:26, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

It does make sense that Title V was applied for all euro states from the entry into force of the treaty, as otherwise a two-speed eurozone would have been created. And it could be supposed that, by signing, the euro members had implicitly agreed to such a (provisional) application. Furthermore, there is no inconsistency for non-euro members. However, the obvious retroactive de jure application of Title V for non-euro states, combined with an ability for a de facto application only after they have ratified the whole treaty, could also be a weird point. (I think this is why art. 12 reads "The Heads of State or Government of the Contracting Parties other than those whose currency is the euro, which have ratified this Treaty, shall participate in discussions of Euro Summit...", which means that even if this article applied for non-euro states from 1 January 2013, but they had not yet ratified the treaty, it would in fact not apply to them. Moreover, the non-euro states are not mentioned elsewhere in Title V.)

Obviously, the governance provisions column of our implementation table has to be changed. I do not know however how we should address the fact that Title V took effect retroactively for non-euro states from 1 January 2013, on the day that they actually ratified the treaty. For all euro states, the date must be made 1 January 2013. And, finally, I suggest we include a column about actual ratification date.Heracletus (talk) 03:26, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

The declaration having taken effect before the actual ratification is a much simpler thing to explain. Any signatory country may declare itself (provisionally) bound by a treaty or any of its articles before they actually ratify it. For example, if there's an article about seas and an article about mountains, a signatory country may declare that it is bound by the mountains article a good 10 years before it actually ratifies the whole treaty. The same can happen with non-signatory countries, but then the actual effect of such a declaration in law is more complicated, as that country may not actually be bound to hold its declaration. Of course, any such declaration has to have been approved accordingly internally, otherwise although it may be valid internationally, it could be declared as odious or null and void internally first and in a second level be also consequentially invalid internationally. This would be similar to a case of Belgium having ratified something without one of its many parliaments ever noting their (needed, for this case to be valid) consent, then, someone starting a legal case against the ratification.

Finally, for Bulgaria, the treaty was ratified on 14 January 2014, with Title V taking effect on 14 January 2014, with an effect of having retroactively taken effect since 1 January 2013, while Title III had already taken effect on 1 January 2014.

Because Title VI took also effect on 14 January 2014 and triggered the retroactive effectiveness of Title V for Bulgaria since the day of entry into force for the treaty, which is 1 January 2013.

Heracletus (talk) 03:26, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

It is also an interesting case that of euro signatories who ratified after 1 January 2013, as there are two ways to interpret what happened:

1. signature -> ratification -> Title VI (and all other Titles, including V) takes effect -> Title V takes effect retroactively from 1 January 2013

2. signature (interpreted as implicit acceptance of Title VI indicating a application of Title V before full ratification, if treaty has been put into force before) -> Title V takes effect on 1 January 2013 -> ratification -> Title VI (and all other Titles, including V) takes effect

Essentially, the result is the same, but....

Basically, this is equivalent to this question: Is Belgium today already bound by Title V of the treaty since 1 January 2013, or will it be already bound by Title V of the treaty since 1 January 2013 only after it ratifies the treaty? Heracletus (talk) 03:54, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I see how you're reading the text, but I'm not sure I share your interpretation. I believe that 14.4 says that ALL signatories are bound by Title V from the date of entry into force of the treaty (ie 1 Jan 2013). Your point about 12.3 supports this interpretation: why would they have added "which have ratified this Treaty" if the entire Title V only applied to non-eurzone states that had ratified the treaty? And I believe that the signature acts as consent to the provisional application of Title V prior to ratification. States can always withdraw their signature if they decide not to ratify.

Basically, as I read the text, the situation for eurozone states: a) 1 Jan 2013: entry into force/Title V applies b) Date of ratification: "Nothing of importance happened today" c) 1st of the month following ratification: the rest of the treaty applies

Meanwhile, for non-eurozone states is: a) 1 Jan 2013: entry into force/Title V applies b) Date of ratification: "Nothing of importance happened today" c) Date of declaration: declared content applies from that day (not the 1st of the next month) d) Date of abrogation of derogation: the rest of the treaty applies

It seems a bit strange that if a eurozone and non-eurozone state had ratified on 2 Feb 2013, and the non-eurozone state declared itself bound by Title III-IV, then these Titles enter into force immediately for the non-eurozone state and only on 1 March 2013 for the eurzone state.

As for the declaration, I agree that a state can declare themselves provisionally bound, but my understanding is that this is different than it's formal entry into force, which would occur later. The treaty doesn't seem to have any provisions for early entry into force. As an example that I am familiar with, Syria ratified the Chemical Weapons Convention with a declaration, dated 14 September 2013, that said "...applying the Convention provisionally pending its entry into force.." and yet the same source from the depository says "The Convention will enter into force for the Syrian Arab Republic on 14 October 2013." TDL (talk) 06:43, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

for me also the provisional application came to mind; but if that were the case the formal entry into force is later as that is linked to ratification... My guess is that there is an error in the table indeed... L.tak (talk) 08:00, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

This seems to support my interpretation of Title V: "According to Article 14(4) of the Treaty, the provisions relating to inter-parliamentary cooperation apply to all the signatory states as of the date of entry into force of the Treaty, regardless of whether they have completed the ratification process or not." TDL (talk) 20:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

After re-reading the treaty a lot of times, I think that indeed art. 14.4 applies to all contracting states. This would however lead in the following situation:

Country Date of application - Entry into force for country is deposition date - Entry into force for treaty is 1/1/2013

Austria 1 January 2013 (ratified ....)

Cyprus 1 January 2013 (ratified ....)

Denmark 1 January 2013 ...

Estonia 1 January 2013 ...

France 1 January 2013

Finland 1 January 2013

Germany 1 January 2013

Greece 1 January 2013

Ireland 1 January 2013

Italy 1 January 2013

Latvia 1 January 2014 (1 January 2013 - Title V; (rest of) treaty did not apply until 1 January 2014; ratified 22/06/2012)

Lithuania (1 January 2013 - Title V; (rest of) treaty does not apply; ratified 06/09/2012)

Portugal 1 January 2013

Romania 1 January 2013

Slovenia 1 January 2013

Spain 1 January 2013

Slovakia 1 February 2013

Hungary (1 January 2013 - Title V; (rest of) treaty does not apply; ratified 15/05/2013)

Luxembourg 1 June 2013

Sweden (1 January 2013 - Title V; (rest of) treaty does not apply; ratified 03/05/2013)

Malta 1 July 2013

Poland (1 January 2013 - Title V; (rest of) treaty does not apply; ratified 08/08/2013)

Netherlands 1 November 2013

Bulgaria (1 January 2013 - Title V; 1 January 2014 - Title III; (rest of) treaty does not apply; ratified 14/01/2014)

Belgium (1 January 2013 - Title V; (rest of) treaty does not apply; not yet ratified)

Date on which the treaty is enforceable under national legislation.

Provided that the deposition date is after 1/1/2013, otherwise the entry into force date for the country is 1/1/2013.

So, the treaty is in force for everyone, since 1/1/2013 but does not apply to everyone in the same fashion.

A euro state that ratified before 1/1/2013 ratified the treaty and applies all of it, from 1/1/2013.

A euro state that ratified afterwards, applied Title V from 1/1/2013 and ratified and applied the whole treaty (and legalised this (provisional) application of Title V) from the 1st day of the next month after deposition of ratification.

A non-euro state that ratified before 1/1/2013 ratified and legalised that Title V would apply to it after the entry into force (1/1/2013), but the rest of the treaty does not apply to it.

A non-euro state that ratified afterwards, applied Title V from 1/1/2013 and legalised this (provisional) application of Title V, still now applying only this Title.

A non-euro ratifier that joins the euro will automatically apply the whole treaty, from the date it joins.

A non-euro ratifier that chooses to apply Titles III and IV will automatically apply the whole treaty, from the date it chooses to do so (if the treaty has entered into force, thus from 1/1/2013 for DK and RO).

A non-euro ratifier that chooses to apply Title III (Bulgaria) or IV, but not both, will also apply this Title, on top of V, from the day it decides to do so.

This provisional application of Title V by signing is probably not enforceable until the treaty has been ratified, as it has not been signified in the normal way of it being approved by the Contracting Parties in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements, and then communicated to the depositary who must notify the other Contracting Parties. In a few words, it's legally dubious, even though I introduced it here. Heracletus (talk) 23:20, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with your summary at the bottom. (Haven't looked though the dates for each country.) The only thing I'm still confused about is why does the depository lists non-euro states as entering into force on the 1st of the following month? For example, Hungary: Notification (15/05/2013) and Entry into force (01/06/2013). Reading the treaty, I can't see any mention of anything that should happen for non-euro states on the 1st of the following month... TDL (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Because they keep failing... they still have a single date for the signature of the Unified Patent Court treaty, they list DK and RO as applying only Titles III, IV and V, while application of III and IV means application of the whole treaty, and so on... You can email them at coordination.accords@consilium.europa.eu.

But also art. 14 is a failure... It is pretty clear that its paragraphs were put together in a haste, and 14.5 seems to have been added after the rest of the article had been finalised. Of course, in recollection of what had happened, with the euro-sceptics of the UK never wanting to join and trying to pull the whole thing apart, it's only natural that this came to be so. But, it now provides some room for argument to euro-sceptics, as some provisions apply without having been ratified. Heracletus (talk) 00:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

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