Talk:Old fashioned (cocktail): Difference between revisions

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	can we remove all websites from this page? The do not fall under WP:RS guidelines and therefore should be removed. I will remove them unless someone objects] (]) 08:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)		can we remove all websites from this page? The do not fall under WP:RS guidelines and therefore should be removed. I will remove them unless someone objects] (]) 08:16, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
			:]? Do that and I'm pretty sure you'll be blocked (by the way, you might also want to read ]). '''<span style="color:orange;">Erpert</span>''' <small><sup><span style="color:yellow;">]</span></sup></small> 08:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

	== Recipe ==		== Recipe ==

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This article was nominated for deletion on June 12, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Soda water!

This is all unencylopedic as hell, but the link provided goes into such vast detail as to the importance of soda water not being added, that I didn't want to link to the wikibooks recipe which suggested adding soda water. I suggest reading the linked article if you have any interest in this, it traces the drink back for centuries. --Xyzzyplugh 15:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

the old fashioned predates the production of soda water, fact. /end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 08:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR

WP:ENGVAR says that if an article starts out wiht US or UK terminology, it should not be changed , unless the subject has a clear tie to one country or the other (like the American Civil War or William Shakespeare, for example). This article started out with ounces, and it should remain thus. I have added the ml equivalents. Thesite used as a reference was for how many ml to a dash or a jigger. Edison (talk) 01:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC) I tried to add a short note that Russian sugar cubes are a different size than American ones, and may use sugar from a different source, and it was rejected. I can't see why, unless it was because I put it under "Notes." I am new to contributing, so I may not know where to place something. Thanks. Max481WwRG (talk) 02:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

According to WP:ENGVAR, as you refer to, "Strong national ties to a topic" have to be considered. Since this drink was invented in the U.S., that resolves the issues as far as I'm concerned. Stevie is the man! 22:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move: "Old Fashioned" → "Old-fashioned"

Both Merriam-Webster's Dictionary and the American Heritage Dictionary list the word as "old-fashioned" rather than "Old Fashioned." It is neither capitalized nor separated into two words. 24.6.179.152 (talk) 08:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

As noted in the article, it's an IBA Official Cocktail, and the IBA calls it an "OLD FASHIONED". That may not help with the capitalization question, but it does say something about the dash. Also please note that the WP:DASH style guide says that a dash is used to create a compound modifier (a compound adjective or compound adverb), but not a compound noun. Here I believe "Old Fashioned" is a noun. As for the capitalization, I think that "Old fashioned" appears too much like an adjective rather than a proper name. This page is about a specific named drink, so I think the capitalization is appropriate. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

"cl." ???

What the hell measurement is a "cl."? :| I couldn't find it on Misplaced Pages. An Old Fashioned calls for "4 cl." . --24.21.148.155 (talk) 02:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

centiliter 68.8.109.218 (talk) 10:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

A centiliter is one hunderedth of a liter. ie. 1 cl of water is 10 grams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.189.106.121 (talk) 17:06, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps more intuitively than converting to grams (which depends on the density of the fluid), 1 cl is 10 ml, so a 50 ml miniature (airline-size) drink bottle is 5 cl (and some of them are labeled that way). There's a photo of such a bottle at File:Jack daniels 5cl.jpg —BarrelProof (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

History

can we remove all websites from this page? The do not fall under WP:RS guidelines and therefore should be removed. I will remove them unless someone objects184.190.80.94 (talk) 07:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC) perhaps the history of the cocktail or purported history of the cocktail should be removed from this page because the cocktail is a drink in itself. Although it also does represent an entire category of drinks, you don't see the history of the cocktail on every drinks page. I would like to remove, anyone have a logical reason why this should not be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The Old Fashioned is the same as the Cock-Tail, for all intents and purposes. Including it shows that the name means make it the old way, without adding any curacao, maraschino, or absinthe, etc. Booze + sugar+ water + bitters = Cock-Tail = Old Fashioned. I think it's pertinent here. As for the further origin of the Old Fashioned,aside from an ambiguous newspaper reference in 1869, the first direct mention of the Old Fashioned cocktail occurs in the article THE DEMOCRACY IN TROUBLE from The Chicago Daily Tribune; Feb 15, 1880, a year before the Pendennis Club was founded, debunking the Pendennis Club origin story. A subsequent article in the same paper two years later reveals "old-fashioned cocktails still in vogue..."and describes a whiskey old-fashioned made with loaf sugar; rye being more popular than bourbon. So, the Pendennis story needs to be identified more clearly as being the legendary origin.

The fundamental origin of the naming of the cocktail is missing and the sources lack the modern historical perspective & research that establishes its place in cocktailology. Cocktail recipe sites are not historical sources. 19th & 20th century writings are research elements, but also not sources; they are often factually & historically incorrect. There was no academia dealing with the cocktail until very recently & as such 19th & early 20th century sources taken individually usually don't present the real story; that is, they tend to contain a lot of error of retransmission & myth. Recipe guides must be checked against scholarly writing on the subject. All previously included academic references have been removed, ie, David Wondrich, et al.. Included are recipes that erroneously call a plain cocktail an Old Fashioned (the addition of orange curacao makes it a Plan cocktail; not everyone understood that 70-100 years ago & repeated the error in writing). Think of it this way: If I tell someone a century ago an Old Fashioned is made with sugar, a couple dashes of bitters, muddled with a slice of orange peel, a splash of soda (cuz it dissolves the sugar better than plain water), and whiskey (cuz, that's the only way folks in my area order it), what could easily happen when that recipe is repeated? 'Slice' of orange peel, becomes slice of orange; the reason for the soda is not included & subsequent bartenders figure it must come at the end on top, etc...and you eventually get the grotesque slurry of mashed up fruit, whiskey & soda water that one too easily comes across. It was a bad game of telephone.

It doesn't explain the simple idea that this particular drink is listed repeatedly for many years,with little variation from the "Cock-Tail", variously as an "Old Style" cocktail & an"Old Fashioned" cocktail because the term meant "Cock-Tail" in the recipe's more basic form: sugar, water, bitters and booze. People in the latter 19th and early 20th century who just wanted their Cocktail without any new fangledness asked for it as such, "Give me a Whiskey Cocktail, the Old Fashioned way", or "Old Style"...the liquor was also specified; It did not become a Whiskey-only drink until later, and the name is often used to mean "Cock-Tail" today, as in, "Give me a Ransom Gin Old Fashioned," which simply means, give the guy a Gin Cocktail made with Ransom gin. This is actually in keeping with the original meaning. Fundamentally, old fogies, and strangely, a lot of folks in the Chicago area, in the latter 19th Century, didn't want the (in their opinion) unpleasant surprise of a dash of orange curacao or absinthe turning up in their drink. That is the established origin of the drink historically. Ted Haigh, David Wondrich, and several others have written on it, but Wondrich is the foremost expert & cocktail historian and he is, without question, the final authority on this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by M3eeks (talk • contribs) 23:54, 24 July 2012 (UTC) <-- this is false, I would take the word of a pathological liar over his. He is the truly the laughing stock among true bartenders and cocktail historians. the aforementioned ted and david both have never worked as bartenders so their "findings" on the matter are only literature based and should be taken with a grain of salt. I would like to add my own research on the but i would like to discuss this before deleting many sources on the page. There are many theories behind this drinks origin, although, some are so wild they should not be included. The most popular mentioned above, the cocktail ordered in the old fashioned way. Others such as the old fashioned being the original cocktail and dating to 1930 and that being an undisputed fact, is laughable. The brandy cocktail alone predates this false dating of the old fashioned. I think some should look into the racing mare "fashion". This might open some eyes as to why the drink is more popular in the south, if some are willing to learn something other than a regan, ted, or wondrich blog. Although its true that the drink is rarely mentioned in early literature, we can accurately determine what ingredients were readily available to a majority of american drinking culture. Am I allowed to post my findings here without retribution of people who blindly believe anything these "experts" say?

I'm not opposed to cross referencing or even replacing the current references with more reliable/scholarly/historic sources. But as is, the article needs to be expanded with some level of sourcing. If there are no new sources that actually contradict the reliability or accuracy of the current sources, it's best to leave the current sources in place rather than delete anything or add our own original research. Vcessayist (talk) 20:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The present version is much more coherent than previous ones, but could use a bit more information. In looking at the history of revision, it seems a lot of opinion has gone into revising this article, which given the topic, is not surprising. Older versions were a confused mess, but did contain some since dropped reliable sources, and accurate information, that didn't seem to match the opinions of some editors. Ex: Gin in an old fashioned does happen & did happen. Reference to it was removed, but without reason, other than they didn't think it was right. For a few decades, it was a whiskey-only drink, but that was not originally, nor is it currently, the case. Perhaps, covering it as its 'commonly known' whiskey version, then as the general drink of whiskey, or brandy, or Holland gin, sugar, water, and bitters, as Kappeler documented in his 1895 guide, is necessary. Given the origin of the Old-Fashioned & its direct connection to the original Cock-Tail, non-whiskey versions must be accepted. They were common as Cock-Tails, and as Old Fashioneds in 19th century, as they are today. Also, even if it hurts, the once ubiquitous versions full of fruit and soda water, though hard to find in any guides, probably should be covered. There's also an Old Fashioned, which I think might derive from Hugo Esslin's Old-Fashioned Appetizer (rye, Doubonnet, curacao, absinthe), which contains whiskey, vermouth, orange juice. it's pretty bad. I've been served it several times, in all parts of the U.S., but cannot find any documentation. It's probably a bartending school recipe. If anyone can find anything on that one, I think we'd have all old-fashioneds covered, good and bad.

why was the information I added removed from the page? I have published literary references backing my claims. 64.134.189.81 (talk) 06:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you have something personal against me? Why are so many others allowed to post their information but not me? I have written 66 books on the subject, I think I can speak from a position of authority. It's matter not, your childish farce will not detour me, if you weren't hating i'd be worried. You think you're the first hater ive ever dealt with? really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 23:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

You can keep removing my literature that is important and factual and I will keep reposting it, every single time, i'm homeless, I have nothing better to do, so keep it up, I can do this all day everyday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3194:9250:3464:4B85:EAC0:A83C (talk) 17:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I would like to add that the old fashioned is made with brown sugar and brandy and named after fashion the racing mare. I have multiple books (not mine) sourcing this as fact, but the actual information is together in my books. Is anyone opposed to this and why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 04:07, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

nobody is opposed but somebody has personal biased against the fact this drink was created in the south, was originally made with brandy, did contain brown sugar. These facts are not arguable because they are facts. Brown rice and brown sugar were certainly the main crop of southern states in the mid 19th century, FACT. Brandy was the spirit of choice in the mid 19th century, FACT. This drink is more frequently ordered in the south, FACT. So why can't this knowledge be shared? It's very likely also that the old fashioned differed primarily from the cocktail with the addition of ice. There was 6 ice houses in new orleans as of 1837, FACT. So this makes sense, but again, apparently we don't like factual information here. oh wow what a coincedence https://en.wikipedia.org/Fashion_%28horse%29 just so happens to fall right inbetween the timeframe for the old fashion. Ah it doesn't mean anything I guess considering we still name drinks after out promary modes of transportation "57 chevy" etc.. Not to mention the "horse neck" (which was the photo finish on a race) or the "cocktail" (which was a term for a half breed racing horse, or not a full breed racing horse) or "stinger" (which was the improvement on the plow) but whatever. Yeah bars and drinking have never had anything to do with illegal activities like horse racing, especially during that time, there was so much holding the country together................ 184.190.80.94 (talk) 06:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC) If this page is the honest consensus of what the world believes about this drink and others, I need to sleep for about a 100 years, maybe then someone will notice how important this information is in regards to this drink.

What exactly are you not understanding here? Do that and I'm pretty sure you'll be blocked (by the way, you might also want to read WP:TLDR). Erpert 08:27, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Recipe

The Drinkboy cited article is very dated & superseded by newer publications and research that contradict Hess' speculation that curacao "may have been added to increase the orange flavor". Cited speculation is still just speculation and alcohol, sugar, bitters and water with Curacao was is noted in several publications as The "Plain Cocktail" contemporaneously. 157.166.167.129 (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

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