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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the September 11 attacks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning the September 11 attacks. To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Is the article biased against conspiracy theories? A1: Misplaced Pages is a mainstream encyclopedia so this article presents the accepted version of the events according to reliable sources. Although reliable sources have repeatedly reported on conspiracy theories, reporting on conspiracy theories is not the same thing as advocating conspiracy theories or accepting them as fact. The most recent discussion that resulted in the current consensus took place on this talk page in December 2011. If you disagree with the current status, you are welcome to bring your concerns to the article talk page. Please read the previous discussions on this talk page and try to explain how your viewpoint provides new arguments or information that may lead to a change in consensus. Please be sure to be polite and support your views with citations from reliable sources. Q2: Should the article use the word "terrorist" (and related words)? A2: Misplaced Pages:Words to watch states that "there are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages". That being said, "terrorism" is a word that requires extra attention when used in Misplaced Pages. The consensus, after several lengthy discussions, is that it is appropriate to use the term in a limited fashion to describe the attacks and the executors of these attacks. The contributors have arrived at this conclusion after looking at the overwhelming majority of reliable sources that use this term as well as the United Nations' own condemnation of the attacks.

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September 11 attacks is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Kept February 26, 2004 Featured article review Demoted January 10, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted December 29, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 27, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed February 14, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed October 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed May 19, 2008 Good article nominee Listed May 29, 2008 Peer review Reviewed July 10, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted August 20, 2008 Good article reassessment Kept June 19, 2010 Good article reassessment Delisted July 5, 2011 Good article nominee Not listed July 25, 2011 Good article nominee Listed August 23, 2011 Peer review Reviewed August 30, 2011 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 25, 2011 Good article reassessment Delisted May 24, 2013 Good article nominee Not listed Current status: Former featured article

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on September 11, 2004, September 11, 2005, September 11, 2006, September 11, 2009, September 11, 2012, and September 11, 2013.

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Good article

Hi folks,

This article is a core part of WikiProject September 11, 2011 and I think we can it back to at least GA status, but I want to know what needs to happen for that to occur. MONGO, you appear to be an active participant. Thoughts? Sportsguy17 18:58, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

It's probably close to GA now...the refs have to be checked out...User:A Quest For Knowledge is the last person to bring it to GA.--MONGO 22:16, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

References 288 and 294 have broken parameters. I'm going to go fix them right now. Otherwise, it looks fine. Perhaps looks closer to FA than GA. Sportsguy17 19:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll take a look. It's been a while since I validated the references or read through the article beginning to end. I'll see what I can do. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Dead links

I've run the article through the WP:Checklinks tool and it found 15 broken links which I've tagged with {{broken link}}. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

A poetic view to the september 11 attacks titled " Pencils and Chalks- 9/11 an eastside view"

From - sunil malhotra,new delhi 9/11 is an event signifying retributive justice, it's futility, seen from an eastern perspective. The poem below was penned in its aftermath, absorbing the essence of the underlying retributive phenomenon, and churning it with an Indian thought and ethos, grounded in the tenet of forgiveness,tolerance. We destruct, then we reconstruct. One shatters life and it's notions. The other rekindles hope and faith, resurrects. An architectural cum a spiritual view is attempted through the verse to inspire courage,hope and spiritual freedom. The attached verse is in three parts- a letter to it's reader, an introduction to the verse and finally the verse "Pencils and Chalks- 9/11 an eastside view".https://commons.wikimedia.org/file:pencils_and_chalks.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smallu729 (talk • contribs) 09:44, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

That's... interesting, but the article is bloated enough as is. Not sure if this would fit anywhere. I appreciate the effort though. --Tarage (talk) 11:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources

It seems that not a single element going against the official version is present in this article. So, not a single book or a single article is deemed a "reliable source"? Strange, to say the least. --Japarthur (talk) 05:32, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

They are not "reliable"; those that are published are published in fringe journals, and those that are from "experts" are not from experts in the appropriate field. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:48, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that all references in this article meet this standard? --Japarthur (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure there are a number of unreliable sources here, already, but I suspect everything here is sourced to a reliable source. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

So, an unreliable source cited by a reliable source becomes a reliable source? --Japarthur (talk) 07:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how you can interpret what I said in that manner, but it's partially correct. An unreliable source cited by a reliable source becomes reliable for the fact that it was said, not for its content. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

If this logic is at work here, Misplaced Pages looses much of its interest, IMHO. --Japarthur (talk) 01:56, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

If you are going to simply parrot back the same lines over and over again, don't bother. Arthur has been more than polite with you, but you aren't listening. If you wish to include any new/different information, provide reliable sources stating that information. Per the above, sources from fringe journals and from experts speaking of fields outside their expertise do not count as reliable sources. If you cannot do this, please cease this pointless discussion. --Tarage (talk) 08:37, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I looked like parroting Arthur's words, but they are so incredible I wanted to be sure that is what he wanted to say. Do you agree with him that "An unreliable source cited by a reliable source becomes reliable for the fact that it was said, not for its content."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Japarthur (talk • contribs) 10:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

That is, broadly, correct. If an unreliable source says 'X happened', and then (say) a reliable major newspaper says 'Some people have been saying that X happened', then we might want to use this as a source to say that people believe that X happened, but not that X actually happened. Does that make sense? However, I don't think it's actually what Arthur Rubin was saying. I think his point was that this article may contain some unreliable sources, but as long as all facts are sourced to reliable sources then it's not a problem if we also double-up with some unreliable ones. What's not ok is if we have facts that are only sourced to unreliable sources. Hope this helps clarify.--Korruski 12:06, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

So, major news organizations never said anything that was against the official version of what happened and never proved wrong? --Japarthur (talk) 12:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I honestly don't know. I was talking theoretically to explain a point about sourcing on Misplaced Pages. You find a reliable source that goes against the official version, and I'm sure everyone will be happy to add it.--Korruski 13:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Conversely, does a reliable source citing an unreliable source become an unreliable source? There have apparently been many books written contesting the official version (just type in "9/11 conspiracy" in Amazon and you get over 1,000 results), by people with either training or various experience in the subject, so surely they would be considered a reliable source. Books like this one, written by James Fetzer, a distinguished scholar, to name but one, who is used as a reference on the JFK Conspiracy article page for his own book on that subject, means if they are considered reliable there then they should be considered a reliable source here. But that's not the issue here. There is already an article which covers this called 9/11 conspiracy theories, but the real question is why does this article have no section on, or linking to 9/11 conspiracy theories the way the Assassination of John F. Kennedy has, which links to the John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories? It is my understanding they as sources would still be considered "fringe theories" or "fiction", and would therefore have no place in this article. That is apparently the general consensus (majority, not unanimous) here from editors who have worked on this article. However, that reasoning conflicts with the linking process on the JFK articles. Here's another question: is an unreliable non-fringe theory source more reliable than a reliable fringe theory source??? -- Jodon | Talk 17:48, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

(unindenting for ease of reading)Actually, this article does link to the conspiracy theories page in the 'cultural impact' section. You could argue that the JFK conspiracy theories are much more mainstream and well-embedded in popular culture given that they have appeared in a number of bestselling novels, non-fiction books and movies. 9/11 conspiracy theories have generally been relegated to fringe forums, self-published material and a handful of very niche books with limited circulation. Of course, that's my own fairly subjective assessment, I don't know if that's actually the reason for the difference or if it's just a typical wikipedia case of WP:otherstuffexists. In answer to your last question, I would say - no in theory. In practice, though, I suppose there's an argument that a non-fringe theory is likely to have a wide range of sources, ranging from the highly reliable to the somewhat questionable, and that's probably fine (though obviously not perfect) whereas a fringe theory that is supported by only one somewhat questionable source is probably not going to be ok. I'm not really sure how productive this theoretical argument is, though. Bottom line - if you have well-sourced material you want to add, then do so. If you have identified poorly-sourced material you want to remove, then do so. Just make sure you explain your actions and be prepared to discuss them here if anyone objects.--Korruski 09:38, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

(Whoops, Korruski snuck in an edit while I was typing) It's a stretch of logic there. Let me clarify what Arthur and Korruski are saying. This article has many reliable sources that overlap to state what is currently stated in the article. Some of them may not be 100% reliable, but due to the overlap, the entire narrative is more or less complete. There have been sources that state things contradictory to this narrative, but they are not reliable. There is due reporting of the phenomenon behind them in the appropriate articles such as the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories article. In most cases, any new source provided by zealous editors such as Japarthur either contradict existing conspiracy theories, or are not reliable, or both. To put it simply, there is a mountain of sources that state what the article states, and a handful of piles of sources that say various other things. To include more than a mention in the main article of these theories would be placing undue weight on them. Lastly, Misplaced Pages is a living breathing entity with numerous editors. There is not one right way to build a page, and just because one page does something one way does not mean another must adhere to that page's guidelines. Consensus has been built through calm debate and discussion, and unfortunately it would take quite a bit to reverse it. I hope that helps you both understand the current state of the article and why hyperbole is a waste of time. If you have reliable sources to bring to the table, please do so. Otherwise, I'm afraid this discussion is moot. --Tarage (talk) 09:48, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I once did my own personal study of the sources on this page (about five years ago). What you find is that of a list of almost a hundred separate sources, they all go back to the government.

When looking at sources, it's useful to ask where does this information really come from? How is this information known.

Do we know something because:

• a paper says they report it
• a paper says the government says it
• a paper says a book says it
• a paper says a group of experts find it
• a paper uses leaked documents as the source

When looking at the sources for this article in the past, over 95% of them were based on government sources. Most every source checked got its information from a government source or commission. For an example, we know the time the plane hit the Pentagon because a government official at the Pentagon told the news paper, and that paper is referenced in Misplaced Pages. Any disparity in information, such as a disparity between primary sources and government sources as to when a plane hit the Pentagon as fringe.

But, what is really fringe is that this article is basically a government press release. That, every source when checked will go back to a government document, statement, or release. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.117.86 (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, please sign your "contributions". Secondly, if you want to peddle conspiracy theories I suggest you use one of the many sites on the internet. Misplaced Pages is a encylopedia and relies on reliable sources, not just "government documents" - but other confirmed statements and film archives. You have not provided any references/sources for your sweeping statements either. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

If you want to be taken seriously then don't talk down to me, use fear quotes, or weaponized language. This discussion is on the sources in this article. Please stick to the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.117.86 (talk) 21:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not care of the origin of information, only that the sources are reliable. Where those reliable sources get there information is of no concern to us. --Tarage (talk) 11:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

@Japarthur: of course.

202.8.72.121 (talk) 13:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Are these guys reliable ?  ;-) 202.8.72.121 (talk) 13:30, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I guess he is both reliable, notable, and relevant, but for some reason still no place for alternative views and questions in this article.. well, maybe only a 'conspiracy' mention under 'culture' section. I laugh at the 'objectivity' of 'powerful' editors here keeping this article under 'protection' from 'vandals'. Shame on you for doing the *job* you are doing. 175.100.34.115 (talk) 14:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

There's of course no place here for Iranian TV source, , after all, they are USA enemies, and this is en/USA wikipedia ! 175.100.34.115 (talk) 14:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

We have never, nor will we ever use youtube videos as sources. Get off your soapbox or your comments will be removed. --Tarage (talk) 22:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

you are missing a point i am trying to make. There are very relevant and notable people like Richard A. Clarke talking different things about 911, and yet you guys guarding this article are trying to pretend that every alternative view is coming from wacky non-reliable and irrelevant sources. !!! Shame on you. 175.100.34.115 (talk) 02:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe testimony of transportation secretary recorded on C-SPAN is reputable enough 175.100.37.226 (talk) 12:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

conspiracy / alternative theories a culture section??

David Johnson, you don't speak for me. I agree that the section on conspiracy theories in this article should be larger. There has been much mention of those theories and the people who believe them in the media. This article does not currently contain information on that topic in proportion to its coverage in the media. Cla68 (talk) 13:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Quite simply, and as mentioned above, there is already a article for "conspiracy theories" and that's where these "contributions" belong and not on a factual page. Misplaced Pages deals in facts and not theories. Once again: case closed. David J Johnson (talk) 13:53, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Cla68 on this. But I would also like to point out that there seems to be an astounding amount of facts that are deliberately left out of this article, and relegated to a sub-page. On the other hand, this article goes to greath lengths to highlight the role of al-Qaeda, bombarding the reader with excessive biographical details of attackers that may not be entirely relevant to 9/11. -A1candidate (talk)
  • This article is about facts, not crackpot conspiracies. 9/11 conspiracy theories are not facts, and thus do not warrant mention in any real detail here. Case closed. Toa Nidhiki05 16:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Everybody, please remember that Misplaced Pages , by policy represents mainstream views on any subject, with minority views or fringe views given proportionately smaller or no coverage. See WP:FRINGE, bearing in mind that the view that somebody other than the named conspirators carried out the attack is very decidedly a fringe point of view, as reflected in the scholarly accounts that Misplaced Pages uses for its sources. Please remember that the existence of other, proven conspiracies does not validate the notion that the events of 9/11 happened as a result of a governmental conspiracy, and that Misplaced Pages is not a sounding board or soapbox for conspiracy enthusiasts on any subject. That does not mean that the views of authoritative critics of the agencies that failed to prevent the attacks and the investigation process such as Richard A. Clarke, who, it should be noted, is not a Truther, should be excluded. Who screwed up and why is relevant: the problem is that there are few academic sources. Acroterion (talk) 16:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

    The argument has never been about the lack of conspiracy theory coverage of this event on this website....the argument has always been about not covering the conspiracy theories in tremendous detail in this article. The primary issue we have always had was who we would reference and what level of detail we would go to. The conspiracy theory proponents always want more, so as far as where I stand I prefer no mention.--MONGO 17:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

why is ICTS not mentioned in this HUGE article?

ICTS_International#Media_coverage

I think it is highly relevant as they are to blame for some of the oversight and letting the terrorist onto planes...

124.248.191.82 (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Whenever there is an accident or disaster, someone is always to blame...lawyers make sure of it.--MONGO 16:23, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

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