Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:03, 20 February 2014

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Ethnic groups Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks: Meta-tasks: Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project. Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution: Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles Category:Ethnic groups articles needing merge action Category:Ethnic groups articles needing infoboxes Category:Ethnic groups articles needing reassessment Category:Ethnic groups articles needing attention Iyer Peruvian people Start an article: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Celts High‑importance Welsh people is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Wales Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Wales on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1: June 2005 – May 2006 Archive 2: May 2006 – Feb 2007 Archive 3: May 2006 – Nov 2008 Archive 4: 2008 - 2010

This page has archives. Sections older than 100 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Bertrand Russell

Really, Bertrand Russell was 'Welsh'? I think it's pretty hard to consider Bertrand Russell as Welsh in any sense. The man came from a long line of English nobility; his father and grandfather were both distinctly English. That is, they were born in England, of English ethnicity, and lived in England; Bertrand's grandfather was twice prime minister, representing an constituency in England. It's hard to see that Bertrand Russell considered himself anything but British (and likely English), due to his parents, ancestry, and indeed English name. He was undoubtedly born in Wales, and lived there for some of his life, but can that truly constitute Welshness?

Perhaps someone can provide a citation that Russell considered himself explicitly Welsh (rather than simply British or specifically English). It is hard to see how he identified with Welshness in a cultural, ethnic, or nationalistic sense. To be quite frank he was sufficiently liberal-minded not to concern himself too much with any of these things. Also of note is that fact that most of sources (indeed the categories to which his personal page belongs!) label him as British or English. This is most correct I think.

Please feel free to disagree, though I feel without hard evidence it's problematic to argue he was Welsh in any meaningful sense.

Noldorin (talk) 02:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This has been much discussed on various pages, including his own page, on which he is currently stated as British (which is undeniably true). He was certainly born in a place that is now in Wales. Whether that makes him "Welsh" is really a matter of how you define the word. In my view, the definition used in this article should not require him to have been Welsh "in a cultural, ethnic, or nationalistic sense", or that those senses are the only "meaningful" senses of the word - although, in the past, references to an interpretation of "Welsh people" in a wider sense, as including anyone living in Wales, have been removed from this article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

His entry in the Encyclopedia of Wales states that he was born and died in Wales, but "can hardly be called a 'Welsh philosopher'". However, he did feature in the list of 100 Welsh Heroes.Pondle (talk) 16:52, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem we have is an inconsistency between his inclusion in the infobox image, and the opening text which states: "The Welsh people are an ethnic group and nation native to Wales and associated with the Welsh language.... The term Welsh people applies to people from Wales and people of Welsh ancestry perceiving themselves or being perceived as sharing a cultural heritage and shared ancestral origins." But, there is no evidence that Russell perceived himself as falling within that definition of "Welsh people" - unless, perhaps, there is a comma missing after "..people from Wales..". If the text were widened to add something like - "The term is also used to include all people born in, or living in, Wales" - there would be no problem. I strongly favour that more inclusive approach, rather than the view that says that the only people who can be defined as "Welsh people" are those who are of Welsh ancestry or perceive themselves as sharing a cultural heritage. Different people will have different oipinions on that and no doubt sources can be found on either side. But, whichever way it goes, the article as it stands is inconsistent. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Very well spotted, Gh. I've taken the trouble of clearing up the inconsistency in the introduction: I think it reads much more like someone would expect it too now. I've evenly-balanced the focus on the Welsh language, which was the focus of the intro as I found it. However I do find that the inclusion of Russell's image is a kind of 'Mormonism'. I think it is rather akin to re-baptising someone after they have died. It's happening a lot at the moment, and we vigilant Wikipedians need to keep on top of it. Remember - a credible, honest and well-written encyclopedia comes above all! Matt Lewis (talk) 04:27, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I took a look at this and immediatly said "WTF". Certainly a English nobleman is not Welsh! I find it terrifying that since this misinformation has been up on Misplaced Pages it is slowly spreading through the internet with a few pages from 2012/11 showing him as Welsh. I reccomend we replace his photo with Bonnie Tyler, although as I didn't make the image I can't enact the change myself.--Frozenport (talk) 08:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

It is not "misinformation", but it is based on an interpretation of the definition of "Welsh people" in the image which is different from the interpretation in the article text. Russell was undeniably born in what is now Wales (and what was, more debatably, Wales at the time he was born). The issue is whether or not that fact makes him a "Welsh person", and there are different opinions on that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:22, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, this is really a matter of defining what counts as Welsh. Under some very reasonable definitions of Welsh (e.g. being born and—at least partly—raised in his family estate, which was located in Wales) he was Welsh. This is hardly misinformation, even taking into account the somewhat ambiguous status of Monmouthshire at the time, which was really the result of a centuries-old administrative error than anything else. garik (talk) 15:10, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That said, I have no doubt that he could also be considered English under some very reasonable definitions of the word. And since we don't seem to know (unless someone happens to have evidence at hand?) how he self-identified—which, if unambiguous, would trump everything else—I'm inclined to think we should replace him here with someone more unambiguously Welsh. garik (talk) 15:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Who would count as "unambiguously Welsh"? Lloyd George (born in Manchester), or John Prescott (born in Prestatyn)? I think if we restrict the image to those who are unambiguously Welsh, we would exclude many people who, by some if not most definitions, are considered to be Welsh. What we need to do is ensure that the text reflects the various definitions of Welsh people - including the one of having simply been born in what is now Wales - which are reflected in the image. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the issue is precisely that, in spite of being born in England, David Lloyd George was pretty unambiguously Welsh (note I said "more unambiguously Welsh" in my earlier post; it's often hard to eliminate all ambiguity), while Bertrand Russell remains a somewhat problematic case in spite of being born in Wales. In other words, birthplace is easily trumped for most people by other factors. That said, I think you're right that we're better off with broad criteria, and I certainly don't object to including Russell here. garik (talk) 17:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

As to the question of misinformation, I would like to echo the excellent point mentioned by Pondle: the sources say that he was not Welsh! Misplaced Pages isn't the place for original research and application of a novel definition of the Welsh identifiy. I would hope that it would be possible to give a definitive citation for every portrait, anything else is original research. We expect facts to be backed by citations not our extrapolations.--Frozenport (talk) 10:02, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

The sources provided by Pondle do not say that at all. One counts him as a "Welsh hero", the other states that he was born and died in Wales, but "can hardly be called a 'Welsh philosopher'" - which is not quite the same as saying that he was not Welsh. He was born in what is now Wales, but probably did not consider himself to be Welsh. So, it's not clear-cut, which is why we are having this discussion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:11, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

And it's worth that "born in what is now Wales" doesn't mean Monmouthshire wasn't Wales then. It just had an ambiguous status. garik (talk) 14:31, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell would turn in his grave if he could. He was hugely cynical of this level of nationalism. To be called 'ethnically Welsh' would make him shudder. He was one of the countless British people of his age that simply had to be born somewhere. We still exist, we are just more rubber-stamped now. Where is the sense of irony and taste? Unlike someone like Dawn French, Russell's not around to complain - and the time-honoured rule of the covetous nationalist is that if someone doesn't specifically dictate what they are not interested in, then they belong to them. I think that this clearly-extreme level of nationalism depletes everything that is good and actually-needed in life. Matt Lewis (talk) 13:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Non-white welsh people

There must be some. One should be added to the list of famous Welsh, to show the inclusiveness of Welsh identity.64.189.66.76 (talk) 23:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The most obvious choice would be Shirley Bassey. garik (talk) 15:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

The image does include Ryan Giggs (grandfather from Sierra Leone). Other possibilities are Colin Jackson, or Mohammad Asghar. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:32, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

And (almost) Toby. Gareth Griffith-Jones – The WelshBuzzard – 15:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea, incidentally, why I wrote "most obvious choice" when I had in mind something like "first name that springs to mind". garik (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I think it depends what age you are. My dad, aged 91, is a big fan of hers.  :-) Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Bassey's a better centrepeice than a famous Brit who didn't seem to consider himself Welsh at all. I don't see the need for pictures to be frank. Most things to the right of the introduction are usually divisive and problematic if you ask me. Infoboxes and the like containing religion etc: all the memories come flooding back. I thought Misplaced Pages was moving away from over-using images? I think they look tacky to be frank, and they couldn't be more subjective.

What tickles me too is how few of the 'Welsh icons' speak Welsh, yet the intro focuses completely on the language. The unbalanced approach to the language is another thing that doesn't really square up. Matt Lewis (talk) 15:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Timothy Dalton

If Scottish people can have an image of Sean Connery (justifiable), English people have an image of Daniel Craig (Roger Moore would have been a better choice) and Irish people have a photo of Pierce Brosnan (unjustifiable - he cares not for being Irish, why is there no photo of Timothy Dalton - he is widely regarded as one of their best actors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorylyng (talk • contribs) 11:03, 10 July 2013‎

Is he really so notable an actor that in some way he "deserves" an image, or are you just trying to get a consistent approach to Bond actors? That's not a good reason. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Even more importantly, Timothy Dalton may have been born in Wales, but his parents aren't Welsh, he left before he was four, and he doesn't even consider himself Welsh. If Manchester-born Lloyd George was Welsh (and he clearly was), then Timothy Dalton isn't. garik (talk) 16:23, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

image deletion warning

Please note that the lead image is up for deletion at Commons because it contains a copyvio image. This needs to be blanked/replaced or the image will be gone soon. --Denniss (talk) 09:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

@ Denniss, To which of the 21 images are you referring? — | Gareth Griffith-Jones |The WelshBuzzard| — 10:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The image that's missing in the source gallery, Aneurin Bevan, 2nd row, 2nd from right. --Denniss (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I am clueless when it comes to image rights. Is this image, or a cropped version of it, acceptable in its place? Bevan was an important figure and it would be a shame to have to find an image of another person. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

"..an ethnic group and nation indigenous to Wales..."

These words have recently been reinstated in the opening sentence, despite - as pointed out in an earlier thread - being inconsistent with the inclusion of some of the figures - specifically Bertrand Russell - in the montage of portraits. There seem to me to be at least two ways of defining Welsh people - or for that matter any group of people living in any area. Firstly, it can include those who identify as part of an ethnic group (and/or nation) within that area. Alternatively, it can simply include all those who live in the area, regardless of what they see as their ethnicity. There is a very great overlap between the two, but there are differences. Bertrand Russell was born in what is now (and at the time of his birth was widely considered to be) part of Wales, but there is no evidence that he ever considered himself to be of Welsh ethnicity. Should this article include all those who were born in, or live in, Wales; or should it explicitly exclude those who define themselves differently (at the same time as including those such as David Lloyd George who were born outside Wales but considered themselves to be Welsh)? Whichever is decided, the article as it stands is inconsistent, and fails to address the issue clearly. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Creepy "people, ethnic group and nation" introduction

Reinstate section heading removed here Daicaregos (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

(I missed the above, so I've removed the new section heading)..

Do people have any idea how creepy "Welsh people are an ethnic group and a nation" reads to a typical Welsh person? Never in my life have I heard the word "ethnic" used in this way. To say 'ethnic group' AND 'people' AND 'nation' (in one sentence for God's sake) suggests there are genetic differences beyond any significant (or otherwise) cultural ones. I think it's Misplaced Pages at its very worst, and the prevailing on-wiki anti-British sentiment taken to its decidedly non-democratic extreme too.

Never in my life I have heard this word used for Welsh people (or any similar), and I've lived in Wales for the 43 years of my life. It makes me feel ill that people would want to use this word alongside 'people' and 'nation' in one sentence for people like us. It's beyond overkill in my view. I don't care what the Misplaced Pages "ethnicity" article currently says - EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT "ETHNIC" ISN'T USED THIS CASUALLY, FULL-STOP! This has the sheer vulgarity of 1930's Germany about it in my eyes, and I find it beyond reproach.

Oh and Ghmyrtle, why don't you ever look for sources for the new text instead of one of your curt "removing POV" complete-deletions. I'll provide them myself later on: well done on getting a complete 1RR in though. Like much of this article, what I included is simply common knowledge. It's funny how so much of the other text in this article remains unsourced isn't it?

As a useful background (per my content edit, since reverted)

Everyone living in Wales knows that Welsh-learning is just not being taken up by people here the way the Welsh Assembly hoped. It is highly contentious right now that they are spending even more to promote and encourage it when there is so-little money in the pot. The 'demand' - I'll be very generous there - to learn Welsh quickly levelled-off, then steadily declined. It's just the way it is: people already use the language of the western world. So the "Assembly government targets" are missed year after year. It was never going to become a fully-bilingual country, and there's no cultural precedent for creating that out of a situation that is remotely similar to hours.

Every Welsh-speaker in Wales (and they remain a real minority) also speaks fluent English, and they all use English a lot of the time: I'm afraid they simply have to as too few people speak Welsh. The vast majority of those properly-bilingual people are perfectly HAPPY using both languages. But other impressions are nearly-always given on Misplaced Pages. I almost never see any balance, just constantly biased and thinly-veiled nation-promoting. It's so thick and obvious that there is no point at all pretending to attempt AGF on this: that's simply not possible to do in this instance. I would just sound sarcastic and absurd. I mean - Welsh are an ethnic group and people and a nation? In one sentence? For God's sake. We couldn't be more mixed in the UK. It's like the pseudo-scientific Misplaced Pages-only 'Celtic Nations TM' and 'Modern Celt' stuff. It's what I call a 'Wikipediaism' - something purely of this place. Outside in the light it's all breezy fluff, here in the darkness of ring-fenced Misplaced Pages it's all carefully-honed "ethnicity".

And Bertrand Russell hated nationalism for crying out loud - he was one of those Brits who simply happened to be born somewhere (goodness me!), namely Wales. Unfortunately we all have to be born on some pre-named patch of earth. Oh were that not the case. It's the first time I've heard that one too - ie about Russell's 'sleeping' identity. It's just so embarrassing, it really is.

If some Welsh people have the courage to stand up and support me, I promise I'll help develop some Welsh articles. They'll be balanced and (as far as I can aid in it) well-written though: you need to accept that with me. I've actually written professional blurb for the Welsh Tourist Board in my past. (for my 'sins' I feel a lot of the time). Matt Lewis (talk) 13:16, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• B-Class Ethnic groups articles
• Mid-importance Ethnic groups articles
• WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
• B-Class Celts articles
• High-importance Celts articles
• WikiProject Celts articles
• B-Class Wales articles
• Top-importance Wales articles
• WikiProject Wales articles