Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 04:42, 21 June 2006

Image copyrights

Following up your comment from the Main Page talk page: "nobody can claim copyright over reproductions of two-dimensional images unless they claim that they are creating an entirely new work of art" - I know from personal experience that there are some plausible exceptions to this rule. One is where people take old books and scan the photographs. The photographs and books themselves are public domain, but they are very poor quality and the pages may have started to turn brown and degrade. What often happens is that the scanner retouches the scan and (to the best of their ability) repairs and restores the picture to its original condition. This does take time and effort, and, unlike in Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp., the resulting image can be significantly different to the current degraded condition of the object being "copied". This is more restoration than copying. This might sometimes justify a copyright tag.

The other thing is simple courtesy. In most cases, simply crediting the institution (museum or historical picture library) from where the picture was sourced, would help. Often they are just trying to prevent commercial reuse. Having the credit line with the image (rather than a click away - if that) would probably help. Carcharoth 15:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I was probably guilty of overemphasis there in response to the argument made by the museum itself, repeated many other places on the net, that "we scanned it so we own the image", which is false prima facie. I grant that there are exceptions and caveats, but in cases where the creator of a two-dimensional image has been dead for over 90 years, the assumption has to be that it is public domain, or the utility of public domain breaks down. As far as I remember, neither the museum nor the anonymous contributor on Talk:Main Page were stating that the image had been altered from the original and thus substantially "new" or that it would be nice if there was a credit line, but simply that Misplaced Pages was somehow legally wrong in using the image.

On your second point, Misplaced Pages is mirrored by commercial sites and, even if somebody wanted to take the image in question and use it in a McDonald's ad, I'm pretty sure that the museum has no legal recourse. (with all the caveats of the paragraph above of course) I believe that all images on Misplaced Pages without attribution (public domain or not) need to be attributed and sourced, and I am happy if the caption states the source as well, especially if the institution in questions asks us to and it is relevant. It is also worth doing due diligence so that we don't get sued for being careless or unresponsive, even in the Foundation wins in the end. However there is a line between being nice and jumping through non-existent hoops. I do think that Wikipedians need to think through the implications of copyright but am firmly on the side of avoiding copyright paranoia. Cheers and thanks for the note, BanyanTree 16:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Rolling back support on an RfA

Hi, BanyanTree, how are you? I was just curious why you rolled back a support from User:A ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. I realize that all this user is doing is supporting RfAs, but every registered user is allowed to have their voice heard on RfAs. Just like users who oppose every single candidate, burecrats can easily ignore users who support every single candidate just as easily. However, I didn't want to revert your edit without talking to you first. Let me know what you think. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 16:36, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi EWS23, I noticed that user being reverted previously. I see no point in keeping the vote of someone who will be disregarded by the closing 'crat and who is obviously someone familiar with Misplaced Pages who is just popping in to have some fun at the RFA, but I don't really care. (Are there really accounts that do nothing but vote oppose whose edits aren't reverted?) If you wish to revert and make a note for the closing crat that the user does nothing but make RFA votes, then I wouldn't be fussed. I personally am closer to viewing the behavior as disruption but I'll just leave page maintenance to someone else. Cheers, BanyanTree 16:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I won't revert it in that case, then. However, I think I'll start a general discussion on WT:RFA about the whole phenomenon, and when/how we should revert comments. To answer your other question, no, I don't know of any accounts that are currently being used solely to oppose nominations, just regular editors who feel the need to oppose nearly every RfA. However, those are certainly two completely different things. Thanks again. EWS23 | (Leave me a message!) 17:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Warning

I did not see your warning, as I am not totally familiar with your site. However, I can assure you that my book is relevant to all titles where I have posted it. Unlike other books written about the Lost Boys, my book gives a thorough account of the Sudanese government and history of Sudan. It deals not only with Sudan, but topics such as refugees, the Lost Boys of Sudan, the conflict in Ethiopia, Uganda, the country of Kenya where the Lost Boys continue to reside, etc.. Even Darfur is relevent to my book, as the muslims of Darfur were enlisted by the Sudanese Government to raid villages in the south where Lost Boys and their families lived. Not listing my book in these areas is a dis-service to viewers who may want to learn more about the inner workings of the Sudanese government and the genocide that has ocurred both in Darfur and the South of Sudan. Thank you for your consideration and sorry for not responding sooner to your warning. Best, Joan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joan Hecht (talk • contribs)

Hi Joan, Thanks for your note. I was getting concerned when there was no response.

I would like to ask you to think of the situation from the perspective of Misplaced Pages. If every book written about a topic received a paragraph, then articles would quickly become a series of synopses of other sources, rather than a description of the actual subject of the article. In cases where sources are both highly relevant and rare, brief synopses are arguably useful for the reader, which is why I did not touch your contribution to the Lost Boys of Sudan article.

Again from the perspective of the Misplaced Pages reader, it is much more useful for contributors to integrate their knowledge into the existing text, rather than creating add-ons sections or paragraphs. You are pasted identical paragraphs into large numbers of articles, notably some very high level ones. The Uganda article covers the entire history, culture, climate, etc of the country, and frankly any single event such as a large war would at most get a brief sentence linking to a subarticle.

Anyone looking for information about the Lost Boys will see your information. There may be other articles that are relevant. A rule of thumb to determine if your contribution about your book will survive is to see if the article has substantial information about the Lost Boys. In that case, further information with reference to your book may be acceptable. If the Lost Boys are only mentioned in passing, or not at all, such as at Uganda, then it is certainly inappropriate to discuss a book about a topic that is obviously not central to that article. Let me know if any of this is unclear, BanyanTree 15:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you get my post?? I feel really bad!! Please contact me by regular email so that I'm sure to get your response and please do not display or previous posts for public viewing. Thank you! Joan Hecht — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joan Hecht (talk • contribs)

My goodness, a lot happened on this page as I was writing my response. I have removed your email address as there are so many mirrors of Misplaced Pages that addresses become VERY public and the target of lots of email spam. I'm afraid I don't understand the "public viewing" message that you left. Thanks, BanyanTree 15:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar awarded!

Barnstar from kukini moved to User:BanyanTree/Ego - BanyanTree 15:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks Kukini! I had to chuckle at receiving the barnstar named after RickK as one of my first experiences after being admined was RickK storming onto this page to ream me out for what he felt was an out-of-process undeletion. (I still disagree by the way.) Hopefully, he would approve. I very much appreciate the thought. Happy editing, BanyanTree 15:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Lima, Ohio

Hi BanyanTree, I became aware of the potential issue at Lima, Ohio over IRC today and appreciate your notice on the article's talk page very much. IMO, from what I've seen in my (albeit short) time so far on Misplaced Pages, it certainly has the potential to become pretty bad come when that "new and improved (possibly replaced)" version is posted; I'm wondering, however, if a talk page note will be noticed that much. Do you think it would be appropriate to be responding to the news article by writing to the Lima News itself? (They have a letters-to-the-editor email address.) TheProject 02:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi theProject (I'm sure there's a story behind the username). Thanks for your note. I have a similar concern that an entirely new entry will be identified as either NPOV, annoy other users who have already contributed, or just require some work because nobody put it in wiki markup. Worse case is that they'll paste over the existing text, be reverted, and then the local press will slam us for ruining their town's collaboration. Of course, they might already have some experienced editors, taken everything into account and it'll all be perfect. The fact that they have students involved gives me some hope that there will be some users with editing experience.

Addressing your question, I've written letters to media outlets before, identifying myself as a volunteer editor, when they've got something wrong. The Lima News seems to be an appropriate choice, otherwise the mayor's office as the organizer. (I see that you have a different definition of "short time" than I since your first edit is month before mine.) If you're up for it, a message that directs them to the talk page should suffice. I'm willing to field any questions, though am thinking of asking the folks over at WikiProject Ohio for a hand if necessary, and can always bump it upstairs if there's anything complicated. Cheers, BanyanTree 03:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Evidently we share the same concerns: that's good to hear. Obviously I'm hoping they already have editors with experience on WP, but it would still be wise to prepare for the worst. What worries me most primarily is that most editors with major contributions to the Lima article so far don't appear to have much experience elsewhere on WP. I'm perfectly up to writing a letter (and there's nothing saying we can't both): letters to the Lima News editor are directed to letters at limanews dot com, and the Mayor's email is mayor at cityhall dot lima dot oh dot us. The reporter's email alias (although I think it would be more appropriate to contact the editor rather than the reporter directly) is hrutz. Let me know what you do.

As for the other stuff you've pointed out: yes, the nickname has a bit of a history behind it, although I won't go into that now. :-) Also, the time of my first edit means virtually nothing, as over 80% of my edits have been in the last month alone. I have managed to observe WP in the last year or so, though, and it appears to me that something as minor as a simple misunderstanding or lack of awareness of WP policy could turn this into a very bad situation, especially something akin to what you've described. I completely agree with you: best to ensure that everybody knows and understands the appropriate WP policies and guidelines ahead of time, long before the city uploads its finished product in August. And I guess that includes us "seasoned veterans" (though that label applies much more to you than it does to me) to remember WP:BITE, too. Trying hard not to bite the newcomers, TheProject 06:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've just sent off an email to the article author (didn't read your message through the first time apparently) pointing her to the relevant discussion pages. If you send off one to someone else, hopefully it'll filter to the right people. They are on an August deadline, so I'm willing to wait a bit for a response. Regards, BanyanTree 13:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Move request

Hi BanyanTree - I made a move last week of the article Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom to Princess Beatrice, Princess Henry of Battenberg as I considered the former title to be ambiguous, and hence not suitable for being a primary topic page. However, it seems the move has been met with general disapprobation so please could you move it back, i.e. Princess Beatrice, Princess Henry of Battenberg -> Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom (assuming someone has not already done so by the time you read this). Cheers — SteveRwanda 13:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi SteveRwanda, Done. There's a spare dab at Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom (disambiguation) that I'll let someone who actually knows something about the topic figure out. Cheers, BanyanTree 13:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. As far as I know there are only two potential claimants to this title so I've added a simple disambiguation link to Princess Beatrice of York at the top of the Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom article. Incidentally I've added two new Africa related articles recently - Gustav Adolf von Götzen and MV Liemba. I was half wondering if the latter might have potential to become featured if I put some work in, since it has a very interesting history and lots of potential for extra detail to be added to its various different roles over time. — SteveRwanda 13:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually both of those look quite interesting and have potential. Be sure to start adding footnotes in the cite format now, as it'll be a pain to figure out what sources were used for what later on. A couple comments on MV Liemba: some info on design and build (e.g. was this the standard design or was it unusual) would be helpful and clarifying the various force strengths during WWI (I count three(?) German armed ships). But they're both better than the 90% of the articles already. - BanyanTree 19:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the complements! I'll try and improve the things you mention when I have time - I have a book on the Graf von Götzen ship on order from Amazon, plus a DVD of the African Queen so can hopefully do more with those. Re citations, I asked a question on the Help Desk yesterday about what to do if multiple bits of the article come from the same source (as is the case at Rusumo Falls). If you could answer it (at WP:HD#Citing multiple paragraphs from the same source) that would be quite helpful for me. Cheers! — SteveRwanda 17:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Africa Award & Barnstar of National Merit

I liked your "ooohh.... must... be ... civil" edit summary. I actually wrote something uncivilish in reply, but caught myself before I hit the "Save" button :) --Ezeu 19:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Ha! That was my second try at a response. Thank goodness for "Preview" so I had to chance to reword. - BanyanTree 19:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Masindi District

Please explain? Dweller 20:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops, that's what I get for reverting before explaining on the talk. Sorry. Please see Talk:Masindi District. - BanyanTree 20:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

• Great, let's talk there. Feel free to delete this from your talk page. Dweller 20:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Chernobyl displaced

Hi! I've noticed you remove an anon' inclusion of Chernobyl displaced persons to the Internally displaced person article. This move of yours highlight the problem of the definition of IDP and refugees. If Chernobyl's refugees do not qualify as IDP, they surely do qualify as refugees! So their case should be listed somewhere... You can't just remove it, you should move it somewhere else. If it's not IDP, then it's either displaced persons or refugee. Again, the problem of the "displaced persons" article is that it is both a fork, a stub, a technical term, and may even be seen as a weasel word (or, if you prefer, one more bureaucratic euphemism). Thus, this Chernobyl example should probably be included in the "refugee" article, which doesn't seems to have real reason for taking the "international juridical" definition as basis of it (Misplaced Pages is a general public encyclopedia, not a judicial treaty for lawyers). Lapaz 15:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I completely disagree. You are now arguing for the collapse of all definitions into refugee, which is an argument for no structure at all. The Chernobyl displaced can be categorized to the top level of the hierarchy at displaced person, though the fall under the "displaced due to natural or man-made disasters" sentence. I probably should have moved them, rather than removed them from the article into which they were misplaced. When you read a news article about "UNHCR says number of refugees decreases by 5%" or "Australia tightens refugee policy", they are referring to the legal definition. This is not some definition used only by ivory castle academics - it is the definition by which international aid, asylum policies and UN agencies are set up. - BanyanTree 16:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

desysop request

I confirm the request to be de-sysoped that I made on Meta. Thanks, BanyanTree 22:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi BanyanTree. Why are you de-sysoping? Leaving the project, or just want to spend more time writing articles rather than doing admin tasks? I'll have to find a new admin to undo my silly moves in the future then! — SteveRwanda 10:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I am also concerned - hope you have not hit burnout. Wizzy…☎ 13:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. --Ezeu 13:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Congratulation for your decision to be de-sysoped. Tortor 13:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to all of you. I've been thinking about it for several months as my real life has left me less and less time. I had gotten into circular thinking where I had to stay an admin to defend my watchlist and needed to watch those pages because it seems like I'm one of the few admins interested. I finally reached the point yesterday of hitting the clear watchlist link and requesting to be desysoped. So yeah, part burnout, but I hope there was enough thought put into it that I won't go crawling back to RFA in three months (not that I think I could get through it these days given the number of sarcastic and ill-thought out edits in my history). My edit rate will certainly drop since I won't be doing all that rollback and warning but, hopefully, you'll see me pop up making quality contributions rather than the schlock knob-twiddling I've been doing for months. Best, BanyanTree 15:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I hope. Have a good time, here or in whatever you're doing in real life. Very best wishes, — mark ✎ 20:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

As long as you stick around, no worries. --Ezeu 10:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello, BanyanTree. Burnout ? Well, take it easy, my friend. I have similar feelings re: my watchlist. Just wanna remind you that you shouldn't feel obligated to perform janitorial duties when you are busy contributing, and that the "power to delete" may be useful when you are seriously contributing (e.g. when it comes to moving pages.) It's up to you, but I suggest that you reconsider desysopping yourself. I'm taking June off (so hard to stay away, though....). See you around when I get back. Take care. -- PFHLai 22:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello

{{Smile2}} given by Bhadani 16:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC) removed

Hi Bhadani, I appreciate that you have good intentions but feel pretty strongly that this template is the wiki equivalent of a chain letter. I always appreciate a user informing me when they think I am making good edits, but an impersonalized template is not the same. - BT 16:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Wikiproject Ethiopia

I have recently created a wikiproject for all things related to Ethiopia, and I thought you might be interested. Drop by and contribute when you can (I saw that you're going to be contributing less nowadays)!
ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 04:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Yom, Thanks for the note. I actually think I'm more productive now than I've been in months - about six new stubs in the past couple days now that I don't spend all my time checking new edits. I actually do not have significant knowledge of Ethiopia, despite a brief visit and previously watching a bunch of Ethiopia articles for vandalism, but will be sure to check out the new WikiProject. Cheers, BT 04:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

User:KI

Hi Banyan. I've never been in this condition, so maybe this question may appear a bit weird to you, but since its importance, I felt I had at least to try. One of our best Africa-related editors, User:KI, has got for violation of civility his first block, of 24h, made by User:Kelly Martin. Now I understand this; KI has a fiery temper and when treated rudely may react accordingly. What I find utterly unjustifiable is that User:Sasquatch a few minutes later decided it was too little and lengthened his punishment to three months; what seems to me a clear overkill for the first offence, and an abuse of admin. powers. Consider also please that we're speaking of an editor whose dedication to wikipedia is fantastic; he's the original creator of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Chad, and the main authour of the fantastic article Chadian-Sudanese conflict, which has obtained "good article" status. Please give a look at KI's and consider if it is possible to return to User:Kelly Martin's originary judgement, or simply a judgement that while harsher than Kelly's is at least reasonable, and won't lose wikipedia one of its best editors. If you don't what to treat the thing yourself, as you feel you have little knowledge of block proceedings, please bring it to the attention to an admin who is active in this field; simply as a way to be certain that user Sasquatch has not abused of his powers, or simply given, as I believe, a block far too harsh. Excuse me for making such a request, but I felt the question was too important for me to remain silent. Obviously, if you prefer not to remain involved in anyway in such a problematic situation, I while obviously undrstand. Ciao--Aldux 23:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Aldux, I am no longer an admin, so cannot take any direct action and would probably refrain from getting into an wheel war in any case. I am actively trying to avoid looking at block logs and such but quickly reviewed the situation. Special:Contributions/KI is enough to make any admin (or former admin) get hot under the collar. I can certainly think of better ways to approach a disagreement than cussing out a bunch of admins and then spreading it to WP:AN. According to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#User:Marknw, he claims to be a sockpuppet on Jimbo's talk page, and Sasquatch states that he has also claimed to be User:Freestylefrappe. This edit is interesting. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Freestylefrappe. It doesn't appear to be a run-of-the-mill block at all. Per Sasquatch's explanation on your talk, a calm request from KI would probably result in a major reduction in the block time. If he is not willing to bend that far, then he always has the three month wait option. I will not take any action but, if the situation changes, feel free to drop me another line. - BT 03:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, I've had some time to let this stew and thought I would offer some thoughts. If KI is FSP, as seems likely, then as a former admin he knows exactly how far he can push things before drawing a block and he thus knew he was trolling for a block by attacking admins on their talk pages and at AN. I thus have little sympathy as he does not have the excuse of ignorance. While I personally may have chosen a different span of time, admins are given substantial discretion in determining the appropriate response and Sasquatch's approach of a long block while informing KI that it would be reduced if he sent a request is not outside the realm of possibly appropriate responses, in my opinion. - BT 15:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I respect your view Banyan, and I'm really grateful for the time you've taken in awnsering and considering my concerns. I know that FSP/KI has a difficult character, but I've always felt that WP's main problem was POV-pushing not some occasional rudeness; especially when, like me, you pass a lot of time editing Balkan-related articles, where hate-speech and personal attacks abund, and POV-pushing is the rule, and the admins don't seem to do much :-( Now that I've passed my self-pitying moment ;-), thanks again for listening me; bye, and have care.--Aldux 15:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

not a rubberstamp

Although it's regrettable that you've decided to no longer be an admin, I'm relieved to see that you've chosen to remain with the project, making edits. Because you are a damn good editor. DS 01:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate you taking the time to drop me a note. Cheers, BT 03:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

rv removal

you reverted my removal. that "removal" was me removing something i typed by mistake. you shouldn't have reverted anything in the first place since i have removed the mistake i typed. 194.46.251.136 12:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that you typed over half of the discussions on Talk:Main Page? Because this is what you removed. At first I thought it had been archived, but realized that only the oldest posts had been left. Please use the "Preview" button when editing to avoid similar mistakes. - BT 13:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Maraba Coffee

Thanks for the DYK nomination, BT. I would have added it myself eventually, but it's always nice to get it done by someone else! What do you think of the article? I've done my best to provide references for everything this time, hopefully from reasonably authoratative sources. — SteveRwanda 09:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you should put it up at peer review and see if anyone spots any issues before taking it to FAC. A photo of coffee being picked would be nice, if you have it. - BT 12:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Not at the moment, sadly - and I don't know if I can make another trip down there before the harvest ends as it's quite far... I might be able to find a similar pic closer to Kigali though. I'll probably start the peer review in a couple of weeks as I'm off on holiday tomorrow - my brother's coming and we're going to Entebbe, Kampala and Kisoro (plus locations in between on the coach). I might try to get some new pics from those places, so if there's anything you're interested in there let me know... — SteveRwanda 12:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ooh... jealous. I have a craving for posho with tilapia and peas in greasy sauce with greens and passionfruit juice from a marketstall followed by a night out drinking Nile Special while listening to a mix of soukous, Egyptian pop, dancehall and Western R&B, but I doubt you could send that. :( For the wiki, photos are always nice. I've been thinking that a couple transportation photos, of the taxi parks in particular, would be useful. I think you would arrive in new park from Kisoro, if things are still the same but the first view from the ridge over neighboring old park was one of those "Omigod, I'm in a foreign country" moments. - BT 13:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

CfD regarding cities and towns in Uganda

Hello BT, you may be interested in the CfD regarding Category:Cities in Uganda and Category:Towns in Uganda that I have suggested. See here. I reckon Category:Cities and towns in Uganda is fine. I did not dare to unilaterally delete them, so I took it to CfD just in case there are objections. --Ezeu 17:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I've added my support. Cheers, BT 17:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding like a "me-tooer", erm, me too. Dweller 20:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

On your fourth archive

Can you please replace instances of ] with ] on your fourth archive? My bot was not capable of doing it, since your archive is protected from editing. Thank you! —THIS IS MESSEDOCKER (TALK) 01:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

new to Misplaced Pages, medical rare disease article mentors needed

Hi Banyan Tree,

You wrote to me when I first joined Misplaced Pages in Dec. 2005, and I am just now (June 2006) getting around to thinking about the article for my chosen subject matter, a rare disease called biliary atresia.

I've posed a bunch of questions on the talk page of the article, and would much rather spend my clearly limited time thinking about article content than Misplaced Pages policies and style - could you point me to perhaps a team of rare disease article mentors? Ones who are preferably quite familiar with Misplaced Pages protocol etc. And nice?!

Clearly I can't remember Misplaced Pages editing syntax/protocol/etc. from one instance to another (for example, I don't remember how to link to my user name, sorry) but have a lot of knowledge in my subject area to contribute. I just need a little editing help...

Many thanks :)

- Aunt Amanda