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The contents of the Dronabinol page were merged into Tetrahydrocannabinol. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

12/6/2011 Edits

Before I began editing, these pages were a jumbled mess of confused science and faux-science that had clearly been compiled by recreational marijuana users with minimal understand of how solid research is conducted or reported. Most of the sections were written independently and did not read cohesively when considered by page; as such much of my efforts were spent cleaning up the inconsistencies, miscitations, and straight up fallacies that littered each topic discussed. In addition, I added more citations from appropriate and current research and reorganized the pages so that they are presented in a more digestable format. In summary, these pages on endocannabinoid receptors were not lacking attention before my edits, but had rather received too much attention from people who just did not know what they were talking about. I have simplified, clarified, and expounded where appropriate with the intention of creating a more cohesive and through product. The extent of these edits are subtle, but were based on eight research pages that I read dealing with the topics I addressed Wyliea (talk) 01:52, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Since this is a "talk" page

I'm "in medicine" and just can't get on the bus with the marijuana people. I mean, weed may have it's benefits (so does heroin) but as you've stated above, the recreational users have bastardized the literature with anecdotal testimonial "facts."

My big one is that if indeed this is a credible treatment, would you give your 10 year old cancer patient/child of your own a refer and teach him how to "fire up?" "No Johnny. You've got to inhale it deeply and hold it into your lungs. Watch how daddy does it..." Blondesareeasy (talk)Thanks for playing. —Preceding undated comment added 22:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC).

Your argument is based on the logical fallacy "Reduction to Absurdity." By your logic, Johnny wouldn't get the 'birds-n-bees lecture'; he would watch live demonstrations of safe-sex and then perform supervised demonstrations to prove the lesson was learned.

This article is about Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol, which is only one of the cannibinoids extracted or synthetically produced to provide an effective treatment for cancer patients. Based on the article, nabilone (marketed as Cesamet in the USA) would be the preferred method of treatment and is a fast-acting mouth spray. It seems unlikely any doctor would prescribe lung-damaging treatments if a safer, equally-effective and less hazardous alternative were available. Though it does seem strange that 10-12% of children in school get dosed with amphetamines to 'cure' them of their intolerance to sitting in a chair seven hours a day like 'normal' children know to do.

You want to talk about anecdotal evidence? How about the 'studies' relating violent crime to illegal substances? If they weren't illegal there'd be no need to visit criminals. That's basically the definition of statistical entrapment. There will always be higher incidence of violence in black-markets. The police and politicians know this, but the conclusions of the studies provide misdirection away from 100%-correlated causal factor.

My only concern in this matter is the perversion of logic, reasoning and argumentation. Ritual suicide by alcohol and tobacco: OK, cannabis: NO WAY. Manufactured in China: OK, cigar from Cuba: NO WAY. These are trivial examples.

Jason Singer (talk) 03:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

See but thats the issue right there. No one disputes the notion of "ritual suicide by alcohol and tobacco". What a specious analogy that is! The message that alcohol and tobacco are deadly is replayed 24x7x365. The issue is, as we inch towards legalization, that THC is being presented as a cancer curing miracle drug that has *never* in human history *harmed anyone*. And to the one-issue legalization zealots, *nothing* can convince them different and *nothing* else matters beyond smoking pot. Any evidence that there might be anything negative at all about pot is aggressively rejected. Why is that this does not trip your "perversion of logic, reasoning and argumentation" sensor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.134.116 (talk) 22:24, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I find it quite ironic that, in the United States, marijuana is a schedule 1 substance meaning, among other things, that it has no medical benefits. However, marinol is marketed as a medical evaluation of marijuana to assist in medical conditions and actually has a medical value, and is hence a schedule 3 substance. Why is it that if the primary substance has no medicinal value at all, but a product which is basically just THC, the assumed primary ingredient in marijuana (the primary substance), does have medical value. Where's the logic in that? Styk0n (talk) 08:30, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

"Talk page" refers to conversation about the article itself and how to improve it, not debate about the subject of the article. If you feel the article as it stands misrepresents THC, gather your sources and make edits. 184.182.183.82 (talk) 16:38, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Boiling point of THC

The old[REDACTED] page got the number 157C somehow. Looking this up doesn't seem to find any real sources. So I've removed that number and placed a number given to me by the Royal Society of Chemistry from their analytic database. This other page also uses this number so I figure that should be a good start. http://en.wikipedia.org/Cannabis_(drug) LegacyWeapon (talk) 18:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the ChemSpider source you cited, and I cannot find the value you reported (199.14 °C at unspecified pressure so assuming 1 atm) anywhere on it. For example, looking in the Properties section, I don't see a boiling-point in the "experimental" tab. In the various "predicted" tabs, I do see:

"390.448 °C at 760 mmHg" for ACD/Labs

"407.23" and "200 @ 0.02 mm Hg deg C" EPISuite

Those are all pretty far off of 199 °C at 1 atm. Conversely, the previous 157 °C value at 1 atm is exactly what ref it had listed says. That ref has a data table that notes "values obtained from various sources, primarily Buckingham, 1992; Guenther, 1948; Parry, 1918; and Mechoulam (personal communication, April 2001)." Because I was unable to verify your value, I reverted back to the previous. Would be useful to find the underlying source for the 157 value, expecially since it is so different from the predicted results. But predicted values are only of limited reliability, especially since not reported in an actual peer-reviewed source, so I think we're stuck with either 157 or maybe nothing (per lack of close agreement among sources). DMacks (talk) 18:31, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

That other page states "the boiling point of THC is 390.4 °F (199.1 °C) at 760 mmHg pressure", cited to the chemspider source. Notice the 390.4 value...perhaps the editor who wrote the[REDACTED] content just misread the units when reporting it? I'm tagging that value there as a point of concern. DMacks (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

1/2/2013 Edits

Shouldn't its legal status be updated to include 2012 election changes of medical and recreation cannabis, or not because cannabis s. is not thc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.166.44 (talk) 01:46, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that makes the difference. Even if it's only "cannabis" that is now legal and not "THC", it would still be relevant to this article. So go ahead and add it in there. Charles35 (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Vaporization point (and boiling point)

I plan to build a vaporizer (for experiments with my pet animals), does anybody know the vaporization point? 95.112.162.127 (talk) 08:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

365 °F MidnightRequestLine (talk) 16:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

IUPAC NAME IS INCORRECT

Gentlemen I would like to bring to your attention that the stereochemical identities for the IUPAC name for THC are incorrect. The two chiral centers should have "R" as their stereochemical identity not "S". Solving the chirality for the two chiral centers in the structure also shows "R" not "S". This needs to be fixed right away. This is Dr. Mark A Olson of Texas A&M University Corpus Christi, assistant professor of chemistry. I was alerted by my students to this error and verified it. Please see that it is corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.71.89.15 (talk) 00:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)  Done

"Trade off alcohol for marijuana"

I have come upon many persons, sadly consumed by alcoholism. but in the trade off have found marijuana as an alternative to alcohol. From ongoing research can can prove to be a less destructive and possibly healthier alternative for these persons suffering through alcoholism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.80.14 (talk) 05:56, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Copyright violation

I removed links to a journal article hosted at badgerlawyer.com, but Meteor sandwich yum reinstated them. How is this not copyright violation? Alexbrn 06:10, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi. That was a mistake. I wasn't watching edit history. Can you elaborate (on why they're a CV), please? meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 06:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Because the article has copyright of the publisher. This is an illicit copy (unless there is something demonstrating otherwise - which I can't see). Alexbrn 06:24, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

(Add) it's http://dx.doi.org/10.1097/01.ftd.0000197091.07807.22 (indexed as PMID 16628124). Alexbrn 06:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm... they didn't claim for this to be their own work, but accredited it properly to the original publisher. Still copyright violation? They gave enough detail for someone to reasonably trace the work back to its author.

I don't have anything against just going with the primary source, it's just that this makes me curious. I'm reverting article addition after I post this for safety. meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 06:43, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Nevermind. Subscription-only content I was linking to. Thanks. meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 06:51, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes it was only the link that concerned me - which you've now fixed. Alexbrn 09:07, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Third party v. MEDREF tag

Meteor sandwich yum removed the MEDREF tag and replaced it with a third-party tag, which I have reverted. In edit summary, s/he mentions we have "plenty of data", which is not the concern with incorrect medical sourcing. The article uses primary sources (which can be cherry-picked to present a POV) when there are numerous secondary reviews available that are compliant with MEDRS. To avoid original research on Misplaced Pages, we prefer secondary sources to primary-- it's not an issue of "third-party", rather overuse of primary sources rather than secondary reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:49, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Touché. I retract my action, tag names are deceiving. Medref, at first glance, sounds like it means we need more studies, not better studies. The Coalition for Rescheduling Cannabis is obviously a party with a COI here, but cherry-picking is much more predominant. Even one meta-analysis seems to uphold the POV-pushing: "Research has also shown that past claims of brain damage from cannabis use fail to hold up to the scientific method..."

It's sort of a 'gray area' for this — do you believe cherry-picking might be a more representative tag? This issue can also be seen as sociopolitical, not just biological. As a side note, I notice the talk page doesn't include a "part of the scope of WikiProject Medicine" banner. meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 14:29, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know that "cherry picking" is a more representative tag (well, I wasn't aware of the existence of such a tag), but considering the purpose of a tag is to get the article fixed, the way to fix it is by consulting secondary reviews compliant with MEDRS, and removing the primary sources-- so I think the MEDREF tag is correct.

The talk page should have a WPMED project banner, but regardless, medical and health-related content anywhere on Misplaced Pages should conform to MEDRS, whether or not the talk page is tagged (and Pharmacology covers it, see MEDRS). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Added it to WikiProject Medicine, by the way. meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 22:59, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Mouse male fertility

Meteor sandwich yum, regarding the weird statement from a primary source on mouse male fertility that you tagged, if you have time to examine the reviews at Cannabis in pregnancy, you might find the information to rewrite whatever that line was hoping to say. I only got to a rough-in at the pregnancy article, but I seem to recall seeing that kind of info in some of those secondary reviews. If you do find something there, it would be better to write it there, and then have this article link to the pregnancy article. There is a huge problem with duplication of text across all of the {{cannabis}} articles, so reproduction/fertility text might be better placed there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:35, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Will look into it — I hope to resolve some of these issues and not just tag-bomb, by the way. meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 06:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

When you start seeing how much there is to be done, you may find you have to tag-bomb just to know what remains to be done! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Meteor, with respect to the duplicate and poorly sourced content everywhere in this suite, the additional difficulty at this article is sorting out which sources discuss specifically THC, versus other cannabinoids. Have fun here :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Organizational guideline

... at Misplaced Pages:MEDMOS#Drugs, medications and devices. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Human study, January 2013

Of interest?

Pot for Sleep Front Psychiatry. 2013 Jan 22;4:1. doi: 10.3389/fpsyt.2013.00001. PMID: 23346060 eCollection 2013.

Proof of concept trial of dronabinol in obstructive sleep apnea.

Prasad B, Radulovacki MG, Carley DW.

Abstract on the use of Marijuana derivative as treatment for OSA

Study Objective: Animal data suggest that Δ(9)-TetraHydroCannabinol (Δ(9)THC) stabilizes autonomic output during sleep, reduces spontaneous sleep-disordered breathing, and blocks serotonin-induced exacerbation of sleep apnea. On this basis, we examined the safety, tolerability, and efficacy of dronabinol (Δ(9)THC), an exogenous Cannabinoid type 1 and type 2 (CB1 and CB2) receptor agonist in patients with Obstructive Sleep Apnea (OSA).

Design and Setting:

....etc.

--Hordaland (talk) 23:15, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm... Review study, within the last 2 years, sample size of 17. Mentioned conflict-of-interest, but what concerns me more is that fact that it's so preliminary. To quote (emphasis mine):

Conclusion: Dronabinol treatment is safe and well-tolerated in OSA patients at doses of 2.5–10 mg daily and significantly reduces AHI in the short-term. These findings should be confirmed in a larger study in order to identify sub-populations with OSA that may benefit from cannabimimetic pharmacologic therapy.

A sample size of 17 is way too small to state this as a demonstrated effect, only good for a pilot study. Also, I believe this is self-published? I can't find any reviews of it anywhere. Furthermore, it would further the pro-marijuana bias in this article.

If this were a meta-analysis with a larger population and we needed expansion on the biomedical effects of THC, possibly. This seems more appropriate as a concept treatment for obstructive sleep apnea than for a description of dronabinol.

My vote is no. Interesting article, however. meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 13:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Marinol, Cannabis, and Mortality

The FDA's Adverse Events Reporting system cannot be used to make the claim that "While cannabis is not known to cause death, Marinol was cited by the FDA as being responsible for 5 deaths (4 direct and 1 indirectly involved) between January 1, 1997 and June 30, 2005." Neither deaths caused by Marinol nor the safety of cannabis is established by the cited source.

According to the FDA, as quoted in the cited source: "For any given report there is no certainty that the suspected drug caused the reaction. This is because physicians are encouraged to report suspected reactions. The event may have been related to the underlying disease forwhich the drug was given to concurrent drugs being taken or may have occurred by chance at the same time the suspected drug was taken." How can this possibly be used as support for the statement "Marinol was cited by the FDA as being responsible for 5 deaths"?

Furthermore, the fact that these reports are collected by FDA does not change the fact that they are case reports. Per WP:MEDRS, they cannot be used to support any healthcare related statement. "Case reports, whether in the popular press or a peer reviewed medical journal, are a form of anecdote and generally fall below the minimum requirements of reliable medical sources."

Cannabis has been associated with sudden cardiac death in many literature case reports that are of equal quality to the source cited here. There's not much point in listing them, however, as case reports are not suitable sources for health related content, whehter they deal with the safety of marinol or that of cannabis. Formerly 98 (talk) 09:55, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Total and complete bullshit. The statement that "there is no certainty that the suspected drug caused the reaction" is a standard scientific disclaimer. Yes, there is no certainty when it comes to any of this, and yet, high doses of Marinol kill people while high doses of cannabis do not. Cannabis has not been associated with sudden cardiac death anywhere, and anyone who claims it has is full of crap. If that were true, college campuses would be mortuaries. Those kids smoke until they fall asleep on their couches with Cheetos-stained fingers. Nobody dies of heart attacks. They die from drinking too much legal alcohol and legal caffeinated drinks and smoking legal tobacco. Seriously? Keep fucking that chicken and keep drinking what's left of that Kool-Aid, because pretty soon the cat's gonna be out of the bag, and you'll be the last one standing. Nobody is buying the propaganda anymore and pretty soon, you guys are gonna be out of a job. It's only a matter of time now. It's over guy, pack it up and go home. Viriditas (talk) 10:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

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