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	Black mamba has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 24, 2008 Peer review Reviewed December 7, 2011 Good article nominee Listed May 3, 2012 Good article reassessment Delisted December 30, 2013 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Good article

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The most "rapid-acting" venom on humans?

I feel very doubtful about this statement, although a book was cited as a reference.

Even though we can obtain data (the death time) from clinical precedents, it isn't a "fair comparison" as the quantity of venom injected was also taken into account.

Yes, we may use human cells to test but the cell types to be affected by the toxins may vary from case to case, depending upon the site of bite, and I can't find any large-scale investigation using such method that involves venom from a large variety of venomous snakes, unlike those of LD₅₀ done on mice. So, I'm afraid that it isn't scientific enough to draw such conclusion.

The snake's venom acts fast depending on where it bites you. A Black Mamba can bite you in the face, which is far more dangerous than an ankle bite. — P

Chippaux et al. stated that black mamba venom (which is predominantly made up of dendrotoxins), is the fastest acting snake venom known (dendrotoxins have a molecular weight of <7 Da; compare that to taipoxin, the main toxin in the coastal taipan venom that has a molecular weight of 35,000 Da). Mamba venom is also rich in hyaluronidases (more so than any other elapids). Hyaluronidases facilitate propagation of venom components throughout tissue (spreading the venom through the body). Besides hyaluronidases, there is Dendroaspin natriuretic peptide (DNP), which is unique to mambas, is a polypeptide analogous to the human atrial natriuretic peptide; it is responsible for causing diuresis through natriuresis and dilating the vessel bloodstream, which results in, among other things, acceleration of venom distribution in the body of the victim. This is why the black mamba has the shortest death time among venomous snakes, both in humans and animal models. The shortest recorded death of a mice that was subcutaneously injected with black mamba venom was 4.5 minutes. The next shortest time for a mice to die was 7-8 minutes, which was caused by the subcutaneous injection of coastal taipan venom. --DendroNaja (talk) 15:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated information in article

1. "The black mamba is the fourth most venomous snake species in the world."

Only according to one list. the consensus accepted top venomous snakes are listed on both lists.

2. "Many experts regard this as the world's most aggressive and dangerous snake."

This sentence was taken from the Snakebite article and improperly tinkered with. It authentically reads "Many snake experts have cited the black mamba and the coastal taipan as the world's most dangerous snakes (Hunter, 1998)."

3. "Without rapid and vigorous antivenom therapy, a bite from a black mamba is rapidly fatal 100% of the time."

Not true. Danie Pienaar, head of South African National Parks Scientific Services survived the bite of a Black mamba without anti-venom. he was even featured on I'm Alive (TV series) (SE1EP8).

4. "Black mamba venom can kill a mouse after 4.5 minutes, the shortest time among all known venomous snakes. The second shortest time to kill a mouse on record was between 7–8 minutes via a coastal taipan envenomation.[20"

No mention of this in reference.

5. "Brown also conducted venom toxicity studies on monkeys, who were given subcutaneous injections of venom. The results indicated that black mamba venom was the most toxic to monkeys (LD50 0.11 mg/kg, ranking first among all snake venoms that were tested. It was more toxic than the Inland taipan (0.47 mg/kg), Eastern brown snake (0.49 mg/kg), and Coastal taipan (0.24 mg/kg). In the same study on monkeys (Macaque monkeys), the Coastal taipan (0.24 mg/kg) and Many-banded krait (0.28 mg/kg) were also elevated above both the Inland taipan and Eastern brown snake in the toxicity of their venoms, ranking second and third behind the black mamba, respectively."

No mention of this in reference. I also find it to be a highly dubious statement in general , because the first Inland taipans were only captured in September 1972. the cited book was published in 1973. 79.182.111.44 (talk) 22:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Right, the anonymous IP user obsessed with (lethality of the fierce snake) who has no idea what he's talking about or how to interpret scientific data, is going to criticize the work here. Because of you, the Inland taipan is locked, and there is talk that you are going to be blocked for continual violation of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. All the copyright violations are being investigated, the citations you had placed were not og high quality standards, most anyway. Now you come here, to try to find "unsubstantiated" information. As to the list, it is the most accurate list availble to due the use of albumin with chromatopography - it produces a precipate that is 98% pure. The other sources use saline (without chromatopgraphy) that produces varying ranges in results. That is why it is not used for lethality of venoms anymore (purity of venom cannot attain more than 60% in the process, which means lots of toxins are lost in the chemical process). In anycase, these lists are just a gauge, nothing anyone in the field takes too seriously. Venom varies based on a lot of factors. I bet, if I tested Inland taipan venom on birds, mamba or boomslang venom would be far more toxic because that is the prey their venom evolved to kill. Well, the difference between you and I is that I have been educated on the subject matter at a post-secondary institution. I am not obsessed with the black mamba, I am nominating and going to expand the many-banded krait article in the same manner. Same with several of the Naja articles. Brown listed two taipans, didn't mention the taipan - he just used the word "taipan". He claimed one was smaller than the other. But I have been debating taking that part of the article myself, due to that fact alone. And to the fact that I didn't add the other species that were subjected to lethality sutdies on the monkeys. However, field observation has shown that primates are particularly susceptible to mamba venom. It seems you don't understand the dendrotoxins at all. They are devastating in their nature in a way that is far more rapid and insidious than other elapid toxins. As to the 100% mortality, that is verified and true. It has been mentioned in scientific publications and technical books by many herpetologists, including Spawls, Branch, Broadley, Pitman, Hunter, FitzSimmons, Austin Stevens, Joe Wasilewski, and numerous others. The bite to the man you talk of could have had various factors attributed to it that lead to his survival, besides the medical attention which he got (mechanical ventilation, intubation, drug therapy, etc). That could save someone with a non-severe bite from a mamba, but it is not the rule. The fact is, and has been published in scientific literature, before antivenom nobody survived a bite. Whether you like that fact or not, is irrelevent. I have access to journals online, I have over 140 technical books on the subject matter and I have probably read more on these topics in my years in schooling than you have in a lifetime. So, please, I am not going to address your petty and vengeful attempts at trying to descredit a good article status page that went through a rigorous verification of information because you are upset that I got Inland taipan page locked and made them aware of all the violations that you were committing. --DendroNaja (talk) 07:25, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

You're whole rant is irrelevant. and nothing but smoke and mirrors to evade the facts i have presented.

Point #1 the AVTD organization and list out weighs your opinion on wikipedia . you trying to kill the other list simply because it doesn't include your favorite snake. pure vandalism. shameful.

Point #2 - not addressed.

Point #3 - we have a documented high profile case of surviving without anti-venom. that sentence should be (as it was in the past) "Almost always 100% without Anti-venom" . and he should be added to the case studies as well.

Point #4 - not addressed

Point #5. - addressed. Good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.49.102 (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Homeopathy section

This section is inappropriate, perpetuates quack science and should be deleted. Even if a justification is under "relationship to humans" or similar lines, it does not justify a section of the current length, and could be replaced along the lines of "Homeopaths have used Black Mamba Venom in their traditional cures ." or at most a paragraph in length. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoggy41 (talk • contribs) 13:24, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Totally agree, the sections about homeopathy should be deleted, they don't warrant even a sentence in this article. How has this article achieved GA status while still containing such rubbish? Something is wrong somewhere. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 15:12, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the section again as per the concerns above. Rather worryingly the article was reviewed for GA and just a few days later the nominator added this section. Samwalton9 (talk) 15:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I was just coming back to do that. The editor concerned has asked to be granted roll-back status. I'm not sure he should be allowed out with a pencil!! --Roxy the dog (resonate) 16:23, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I've elaborated here. Samwalton9 (talk) 16:25, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

• I was unaware of a debate here and chopped the entire section myself independently per WP:BOLD. That's a huge chunk (undue in length) of fringe twaddle — it implies, wrongly, that there is a way to create immunity to a black mamba bite through the dilution, and redilution, and redilution, ad infinitim until it's water of black mamba venom. Which is tin hat crazy. Every single allergen and toxin known to man could have a similar "historical trivia section" on the homeopathic "proving" of this or that. Which is entirely irrelevant to the various topics at hand, as is this section here. If the section is now gone it should stay gone and if it's not gone it should go. Carrite (talk) 17:28, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
  • As the GA reviewer, I too agree with the above. ~HueSatLum 17:34, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
    • That section is utterly inappropriate and I commend the editors who have removed it. Can you imagine similar sections in hundreds of other articles about various things that homeopathy quacks use in their potions? I've got the article on my talk page now. Cullen Let's discuss it 01:48, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

GAR

There's so much that's wrong with this article it's difficult to know where to start. I'll be starting a GAR in a few days if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Sasata (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree. As a non-herpetologist I have just done a minor revert (having forgotten that I had expressed concern about the article in Jan 2014) and I was shaken by the cub-journalistic tone (allegedly backed up by citations that I have not assessed) along the lines of say:

• "the fourth-most-venomous snake species in the world"
• "probably the most-feared and respected snake species in the world"
• "According to wildlife biologist Dr. Joe Wasilewski, black mambas are the most-advanced of all the snake species in the world"
• "venom apparatus and method of delivering venom is also the most-effective and most-evolved among all venomous snakes"

and so on every few lines in the lede alone. I haven't checked the rest of the article, but I am willing to contribute some effort if our resident herpetologists would like a hand. If you would rather be left a clear field, no hard feelings. JonRichfield (talk) 12:49, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree, that the article is over-done. I'm leaving it to others to tone down the prose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.53.143 (talk) 17:13, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth--I'm not one of the resident herpetologists--I agree re: the writing; in fact that's why I initially checked the talkpage, to see how long it had been since the article had been listed. I do have experience in rescuing formerly decent articles that someone with much more enthusiasm than judgement decided to over-write, and this one has all the hallmarks. (I particularly like the assertion here that while mambas don't have predators, "snakes in general have many.") Shoebox2 talk 21:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

As a herpetologist who wrote much of the black mamba article (along with the many-banded krait, Snakebite, Chinese cobra, Cape cobra, Pseudohaje goldii, Caspian cobra, Congo water cobra, Banded water cobra, Forest cobra, Eastern green mamba, Jameson's mamba, Western green mamba, Crotalus tigris and basically most other venomous snake articles, I can tell you that snake venom toxicity and composition can vary even within a single species based on numerous factors which can (diet, seasonal changes, age-dependent, etc). Before I start about the LD50 ratings, I would like to mention that I actually wrote the Snakebite article, so I didn't "steal" anything from there - it was my work to begin with. Second, the dentition of the black mamba, and the entire genus of Dendroaspis do have the most advanced venom delivery apparatus. Not only do they have the longest fangs of any elapid, but their fangs are considered semi-hinged (like viper fangs). Other elapids have fangs that are completely immovable.

Now to the toxicity/LD50 issue: the black mamba is the 4th most venomous snake species in the world based on the study by Ernst & Zug (1996). That is unquestionable. The toxicity ratings obtained from this study/experiment is considered to be the most important toxicity study on snake venom in the world. This is due to several factors: first, the data that was obtained was based on snake venom that was collected from hundreds of specimens from some species, while for other other species, venom was collected from thousands of specimens from all different regions of a species' geographic range (which was the case for the black mamba - 1,200+ specimens of wild caught black mambas from all localities had their venom extracted). Zug et al. also used Fraction V (bovine serum albumin). This method is known to produce the highest purity precipitate, usually in the range of 98-99%. This precipitate is the dried venom which is then used to determine toxicity. Basically, this means the most accurate toxicity rating is obtained due to the purity of the precipitate. The study conducted by Ernst & Zug was extensive, costly and the scientific methods used had been proven to produce toxicity ratings that were consistent and although variation was still observed (as expected, it was insignificant). They were meticulous and the study is considered to be nearly flawless within the herpetological community. All other methods of determining snake venom toxicity always result in wildly varying toxicities, which is/was never the case with the 1996 study. In addittion, venom is usually collected from only a handful of specimens from each species (usually such experiments will study the toxicity of a very limited number of snake species, unlike the 1996 study). Up until now, there has been no single study that has been as large in scale as the 1996 study. Another issue is that many LD50 ratings are very old - 1967 (Christian & Anderson). Christian & Anderson conducted venom toxicity experiments based on only a few specimens from different genera and species, methods used are outdated, and they simply were not as reliable. Latifi conducted some experiments, but he stuck to snakes from one region (Middle East/Central Asia), and Dr. Fry had a list that used outdated methods and the results varied wildly, even within a single species. The most reliable, concise and accurate ratings of snake venom toxicity is the study done by Ernst & Zug et al. Another decent study was done by Brown (1973), which gave the black mamba a toxicity rating of 0.12 mg/kg (SC), 0.06 mg/kg (SC), and 0.009 mg/kg (IV). This placed the black mamba above the coastal taipan, the many-banded krait and all other land snakes with the exception of the eastern brown snake and inland taipan. I would also appreciate it if things are first discussed here on the talk page before anything is changed within the article. As you have already mentioned, you are not a herpetologist - but I have studied herpetology (specifically ophiology) at a very high university level.--Dendro†Naja 00:12, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I am going to revert the article back to the way it was until everything is discussed here. I am the "resident herpetologist" here, so I think it would be appropriate to discuss all issues before changing the article. I am not going to allow this article to fall into an edit war, especially not with an IP user who doesn't seem to know much about venomous snakes other than the basics that most people know. --Dendro†Naja 00:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

And another thing, black mambas don't have any predators that regularly prey on them. Only humans are considered predators of the mamba. Juveniles are taken by birds of prey, honey badgers, other snakes, lizards, and older ones are occassionally taken by crocodiles. But even lions, leopards, and other large African predators stear clear. Fully grown adult black mambas (8 ft+) are not prey to anything. --Dendro†Naja 00:47, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The consensus is to shorten and bring the article to wikipedia standards. do not revert the changes made in this article.79.182.13.174 (talk) 00:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

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