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Joseph Mercola

Removed unreferenced, potentially libelous content from the Joseph Mercola page (clearly indicated this was reason for removal) only to find it’s been restored. Specifically, the lede describes Dr. Mercola as an “alternative medicine proponent” with link to wiki page for alternative medicine which states alternative medicine is “not based on evidence” and “not based on scientific method”, while Dr. Mercola is a licensed osteopathic physician and as such would be trained in evidence based medicine/scientific medicine (ie osteopathic medicine does not qualify as alternative medicine) Additionally, the lede states Dr. Mercola is a member of numerous “alternative medicine organizations”. There are references attached to these sentences, but the references do not support either of these claims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Joseph_Mercola&diff=598922034&oldid=598697508

Talk:Joseph Mercola shows concerns that the article does not represent NPOV have been brought up numerous times, yet it appears vigilant editors have maintained a non-NPOV article. Added the unbalanced tag twice but it was repeatedly removed.

Quick summary of the rest of the article shows other concerns such as:

-What appears to be undue weight given to a negative opinion piece editorial from Business Week which is critical of Dr. Mercola.

-Using a source called “QuackWatch” which exaggerates FDA complaint against Dr. Mercola instead of simply factually referencing the actual FDA complaint.

-Using a dead link to a provocatively titled article called “Can AZT and Other “Antiretrovirals” Cause AIDS?” to make it appear Dr. Mercola doesn’t believe the HIV virus causes AIDS. Located an active link for this article and the actual article states Mercola believes antiretroviral medication side effects can include immune suppression with references included for these claims.

http://www.omsj.org/issues/can-azt-and-other-antiretrovirals-cause-aids

Could someone objective please look over this article? It appears not to be NPOV, and even more concerning, it appears it contains unreferenced, potentially libelous, content. Mendaliv, you were very helpful on Jahi McMath page, would you mind taking a look? Thanks.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

There's no contradiction at all in the notion that someone with a proper medical degree might start selling bogus supplements and promoting ridiculous claims (e.g. that HIV is not the cause of AIDS). If the sources don't support the claims, then of course revision is needed, but I don't see a problem with the underlying notion that "alternative medicine" is the right frame here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

User:BoboMeowCat is a relatively new user who is too eager to go to the boards. Jumped right into the Paracetamol article and tried to edit war in (received a block for it) content over-emphasizing side effects there and filed a COIN complaint against editors upholding MEDRS, which was snowball-closed. Now has moved to alt medicine topics and it appears that the same WP:IDHT behavior is happening there. This complaint, like the COIN posting, is without merit. Mercola is a proponent of alt med and much of what he advocates falls within WP:FRINGE; the article is well sourced and abides by BLP and NPOV. Jytdog (talk) 12:56, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

User:BoboMeowCat is absolutely correct. The page seems to have been constructed by people who have negative, personal opinions on Joseph Mercola and his practice, and editors with similar viewpoints have contributed to this article getting away with being biased. The lack of proper sourcing and false information is concerning, and the page needs serious editing. Adamh4 (talk) 18:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Adamh4 is also a new user; has been an editor for about 2 weeks and was already complaining about this article on his/her 2nd day as an editor here and here and here and here - already getting into WP:IDHT territory on the Talk page there, and making very strong statements while just getting started. Two new editors going down the warrior path too early :( Jytdog (talk) 19:06, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I understand that I am a new user, but I didn't realize any of my comments on any of these pages would be considered disruptive; I thought I was just acting the same as all the other users I was learning from! Maybe I got carried away with my comments, but that doesn't change how I feel about them, although it will change how I voice them. I guess I just believed I have been following the guidelines this whole time, and became over zealous after a certain amount of discussions. I apologize for coming off as I did, like I said, every day is another learning experience! I will be sure to tread more carefully from now on though -- thankfully I have experienced editors to help me out as I go! Adamh4 (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

you have not been dispruptive! you are just heading down that road. i characterized you to provide admins and editors reviewing here with some context. everybody is a volunteer here and very busy. (may have been inappropriate - i screw up sometimes) Jytdog (talk) 19:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

• I was pinged by Bobo's initial post. I'm really not familiar enough with the source material to respond other than to say I think this is the wrong board; the concern for libel is in my view mere window dressing of what is more of a series of NPOV concerns. But on those grounds, I can't really say much other than I know of Ronz and QuackGuru, and don't believe they're the type to intentionally engage in presenting an unbalanced viewpoint. I should say, further, that I agree with the statements of principles on the talk page, indicating that NPOV does not mean we don't present the opinions of others: we do present other viewpoints, balancing them according to WP:DUE. In fact, one application of WP:DUE would be to conclude that presenting no opinion viewpoints would be to give undue weight to the minority viewpoint. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 19:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

My main concern is the improperly sourced or unsourced content. However, what appears to be NPOV concerns may have a lot to do with how such content got in there in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Joseph_Mercola&oldid=598922034

For example, the lede states Mercola is an “alternative medicine proponent” referenced by this article –

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-05-25/news/0305250393_1_food-pyramid-diet-guru-osteopathic

This article does not support such a statement.

The lede also states Mercola is a member of several alternative medicine organizations supported by this reference.

http://www.aapsonline.org/newsletters/apr94.htm

…but this ref only shows Mercola’s membership in the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, which is not an alternative medicine organization.

That’s only the first 5 lines of text, which is all I’ve had time to go through, but as Adamh4 also points out, there appear to be serious referencing concerns throughout.

Isn’t it WP policy that improperly sourced or unsourced content is to be removed immediately on BLP (especially if potentially libelous)? I could remove again, but I’m fairly sure vigilant editors will restore it.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:34, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

It isn't particularly wise to use BLP bluster to remove things on the basis of a faulty understanding. The reference that supports "alternative medicine" in this context is . Per WP:LEAD, not everything in the lead has to have an in-line source, as long as the source is given in the body. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:54, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

According to WP:LEAD “The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be supported by an inline citation.”

Also, the reference provided above is an opinion piece. It seems an opinion piece doesn’t authoritatively support the claim that Dr. Mercola is a proponent of medicine which is not based on research and medicine which is not based on scientific method. (There’s a link to wiki page for alternative medicine in the lead which defines alternative medicine that way). Seems maybe with the reference provided we could reasonably say something like “at least one commentator considers Mercola an alternative medicine proponent”, but it doesn’t seem this should be the opening sentence in the lead. Additionally, that reference doesn’t support the claim that Mercola is a member of several alternative medicine organizations. That statement is still unsupported.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:31, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Sigh you can WP:wikilawyer all day long, bobomeowcat. Mercola is way way out there - not part of the medical mainstream. He brags about being out there, opposed to the mainstream. The laundry list of his alternative medicine stances is as long as my arm. (here is one of the many laundry lists you can find about him). As long as you keep refusing to accept that Misplaced Pages is very much mainstream with regard to health information (as you have been pointed to many times, please read WP:MEDRS, all the drama boards in the world are not going to help. Jytdog (talk) 00:53, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Read the link on WP:wikilawyer and curious why you think it applies here. Nomoskedasticity brought up WP:LEAD. Quoted WP:LEAD.

Previously read WP:MEDRS and I'm not sure how it defends use of an opinion piece from BusinessWeek. Seems a much better way to comply with WP:MEDRS would be to describe controversial claims made by Dr. Mercola, and then use reliable medical sources to show how Mercola’s views differ from mainstream medical practice. I’m concerned you appear to repeatedly mischaracterized me, but I’d rather just stay on topic.

I agree Mercola is out of the mainstream. A statement regarding Mercola being out of the mainstream seems like it would be a much better statement for the lead than an improperly sourced statement regarding him promoting medicine not based on research or medicine not based on scientific method. Stating Mercola is out of the mainstream or even stating that Dr. Mercola is downright controversial seems like something we could actually support with solid references.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

ok... so medicine that is out of the mainstream, is "alternative medicine" on Misplaced Pages - by definition. That is the spirit and letter of MEDRS and FRINGE and NPOV. You can try to Wikilawyer away the content and sources that describe him as such, or you can work to improve the article so that he is described as per Misplaced Pages norms. No article on Misplaced Pages is perfect; all articles can be improved. Either way, this is not a matter for BLPN - this is a matter of you understanding Misplaced Pages norms and working within them. Jytdog (talk) 04:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, on Misplaced Pages, according to the linked page for alternative medicine, alt med is medicine not based on evidence and medicine not based on scientific method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Alternative_medicine&oldid=598490686

However, I can see why you assumed it meant that because in the popular press, the phrase “alternative medicine” appears to simply mean what you stated above as anything outside of standard or mainstream medical practice. This discrepancy in meaning seems to add additional problems to relying on non-WP:MEDRS sources from the popular press such as the Business Week article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 05:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Since there are no real BLP issues here, and the matter should be dealt with on the article's talk page, we need a snowball close here. This venue is not the right place to deal with this, especially since possibilities at the talk page have not been exhausted.

I suggest that Bobo also respond to questions on the article's talk page, instead of persisting here. He seems to lack understanding of many of our policies. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:25, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Inclusion of improperly sourced potentially libelous content is the issue that caused me to post here. Also, which policies do you think I don't understand? --BoboMeowCat (talk) 12:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Responding again to this issue, I think you're jumping the gun at calling the content you removed "potentially libelous", as well as rapidly reporting it to a specialty issue noticeboard. Bobo, with respect, your style of argumentation is a type not well suited to Misplaced Pages. You sound very much like you're trying to wikilawyer a minor balancing issue—and that's what this is at bottom—into a full-blown dispute by claiming that the local consensus at that page, or within the Medicine WikiProject and related projects, directly contravenes WP:BLP. That is not what's happening here, and the sooner you approach this as the basic content issue that it is, the sooner it will be resolved or explained in a manner that at least lets all parties understand the reasoning behind the outcome. The end result of this style of discussion is little more than a trainwreck. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 16:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that a lot of Bobo's claims are accurate, but I wouldn't necessarily label the information on the page as "libelous." I think that there are a number of things on this page that could be perceived as one sided or biased, and that should be balanced out with some added information to the page. There is a great amount of negativity of the page, but I think this stems from the negativity that stems from the media's view of Mercola. Nonetheless, I think there could be some balancing done. Adamh4 (talk) 20:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Adamh4, Please note that WP:NPOV does not mean that we avoid calling a spade a spade. Where Mercola holds WP:FRINGE views, and he definitely does on several points, we do not dance around that. We state it clearly. If you have not read WP:FRINGE please do so. Please remember that as an encyclopedia that anyone can edit people come here with all kinds of WP:pseudoscience (that wikilink is to a section of the NPOV policy - please check it out too) and want to claim it is true. This is why we stand very very strongly rooted in mainstream science. Otherwise this place would be a disaster. This means that we will say things that appear "negative" about Mercola, but as Mendaliv wrote just above your post, following our policies on health-related content does not conflict with BLP nor with NPOV. I hope that makes sense to you! Jytdog (talk) 20:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I just think saying Mercola promotes medicine not based on evidence and medicine not based on scientific method is problematic. There are no solid references to support such a claim and it’s the opening sentence of the lead. As far as I can see, including an improperly sourced statement claiming a doctor promotes medicine not based on evidence and not based on scientific method seems to be a problem that isn’t erased by the fact that Dr. Mercola is clearly out of the mainstream and is controversial. Browsing Mercola’s online articles indicates he seems to base his controversial medical claims on his interpretation of research and he tends to include at least somewhat scientifically plausible explanations. Which I’m not claiming makes him right, but unless we have solid references showng Mercola promotes medicine not based on evidence or promotes medicine not based on scientific method, then calling him an “alternative medicine proponent” (along with wiki page link that defines alt med that way), seems to violate BLP with respect to improperly sourced content, and considering this is being said about a liscenced physician, it seems it could be potentially libelous. which is why I posted here.

As you were at the acetaminophen article, you are fast approaching WP:IDHT with respect to refusing to hear the many explanations that have been offered to you about WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS and how they relate to how we deal within Misplaced Pages with claims made by those, including Mercola, who advocate alternative medicine. What you are saying may or may not be reasonable in a forum outside Misplaced Pages, but not here. We have policies and guidelines that govern how we do things that you are not dealing with. Jytdog (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It appears Adamh4 is most concerned that the Joseph Mercola article is not balanced and violates NPOV, and I tend to agree that’s also a concern here, but my main concern is improperly sourced content. Maybe our respective arguments are getting confused. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 13:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Bobo, you think it's "problematic" that we follow the multiple RS which associate the words "alternative medicine" with this man. Maybe you should consider his behavior to be problematic. The FDA certainly does. It's his fault, not ours. If he doesn't want that association, then he should change his behavior. It's our job to follow the sources, so stop the IDHT behavior before you get topic banned or blocked. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Jytdog, curious that you broke up my response above by putting your comment in middle.

BullRangifer You mentioned IDHT, yet seem to have responded as if you didn’t hear where it was indicated that the popular press uses phrase “alternative medicine” to mean anything outside of standard medical practice, while on Misplaced Pages we have it defined differently as medicine not based on evidence or medicine not based on scientific method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Alternative_medicine&oldid=598490686

The problem is we don’t have any sources which support that Dr. Mercola promotes medicine not based on research or not based on scientific method. It would be interesting if I got blocked or banned for bringing this to attention of BLP noticeboard.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I think a block or ban may be a good idea when an editor is incapable of working with other editors or reading what sources and articles actually say. --Ronz (talk) 16:38, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

User:BoboMeowCat - the basic principle on Misplaced Pages that you are not hearing, and that you appear to be trying wikilawyer around, is that what matters with regard to WP:FRINGE, is where the individual stands with regard to the scientific consensus. If you are outside the consensus, you are by definition WP:FRINGE. As you have already agreed and as the sources show, Mercola is admittedly and aggressively outside the consensus. Please understand this basic principle, and please stop making wikilawyering arguments around it. It is not relevant if someone cites some scientific publications to support their position - many folks on the FRINGE do that. Your failure to recognize this thus far, is why we are saying that you are in territory of WP:IDHT. Thanks Jytdog (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Wow, how is this guy not in jail? A D.O. must understand the harm caused by promoting AIDS denialism, missed vaccinations, etcetera. LeadSongDog come howl! 14:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all the tips everyone, I appreciate you all giving me something to think about as far as interpretation of the rules! Also, thanks for trying your best to teach bobo how Misplaced Pages works; it seems like he still has a lot to learn as far as etiquette. Adamh4 (talk) 20:11, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Daniel Amen

Daniel Amen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I think more eyes should have a look at the radical transformation this article is undergoing. Misplaced Pages seems to be going to great lengths to cast doubt, and discredit any aspect of this man's work. While I agree that addressing perceived claims is important. I feel we may doing some real world harm here as well. Sportfan5000 (talk) 08:35, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Content about the diagnosis and treatment of medical conditions and claims of their efficacy and success must be supported by MEDRS quality sources. Any such claims that contradict the mainstream scientific consensus can only be presented as DUE with proper balance. Theories not broadly supported by scholarship in their field are FRINGE and are treated as such. The article is well sourced. The talk page has extensive discussion to support it. - - MrBill3 (talk) 11:21, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Note this was just previously raised by Sportfan5000 at WT:MED#More eyes on Daniel Amen. Alexbrn 11:36, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

OP is newish, just parachuted in, has not discussed issues on Talk, and doesn't appear to understand WP:FRINGE nor WP:MEDRS. Hopefully will withdraw this as we engage. Jytdog (talk) 11:42, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

My concerns remain, despite assurances that this teams of editors is applying FRINGE and a MEDRS standard. I started this posting as suggested at ANI, and also posted to alert WikiProject Medicine, which all seem perfectly acceptable, and desired steps. My main issue is that we are glossing over Amen's proven success, even while dismissing and discrediting all of his medical work. It is undeniable he has wired for decades, sold piles of books, is an in demand speaker, makes many TV appearances, and arguably has amassed one of the world's largest collections of contemporary brain scans as a pioneer in the field. I think the article is woefully out of balance essentially discrediting Misplaced Pages. I do not enjoy how my involvement there has been characterized or the reception I was afforded. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

FRINGE is about science, but psychology is not, and never can be, purely a science--

Hi, I have a concern that the article is being treated like a "science article" when, in fact, much of the topic is about psychology, which can never be a "pure science".

I think treating a psychology article (such as this one) like it is about "pure science", is misguided. Treating Psychology as a science has inherent limits-- that is, in reality, psychology is much more of what is called a "soft science" than it ever could be a "hard science". Science can help in the understanding of psychology, and should be used as much as possible to the extent that it can help, but there is something about psychology that is more elusive and much more difficult to pin down. There is an aspect of psychology that is very hard to apply hard science in any conclusive way.

In a nutshell, psychology is inherently subjective, when science is a practice in objectivity. (Psychology being an essential part of what psychiatry is, in addition to the neurological and pharmaceutical aspects). All of this makes it much harder to "scientifically evaluate" things that involve psychological states of mind.

*So psychiatrists are all less scientific than they appear to be (including Dr. Amen's critics). And so are neuroscientists, when they 
start talking about psychology.  

Psychiatry is far from being a "cut and dried" field, and that applies as much to Dr. Amen's critics as it does to Dr. Amen. I therefore fear that treating critics of a psychological theory as if they are the "voice of science" is giving these critics authority that they do not deserve. Of course Dr. Amen should not get authority that he does not deserve either. But this does not take us to the same place as a "FRINGE conclusion. Instead it takes us to a place of not being able to know much of anything for sure. And so a responsible article would rely more heavily on the "this can not be known for sure either way tone", than a FRINGE tone. There can be no FRINGE where there is no science, or in this case, some science, but not enough science. This cuts both ways, applying just as much to Dr. Amen's critics as it does to Dr. Amen.

Thanks.

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 07:57, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

"There can be no FRINGE where there is no science" ← No, our policy is explicit: "This also applies to other fringe subjects ". Alexbrn 09:00, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's right, but then the threshold for what constitutes FRINGE, in this case, would not be a scientific one, or at least not purely so. The threshold is different in a nonscientific case. And the criticisms expressed would also differ (somewhat).

And even more importantly-- the "pure-science" seeming criticisms of Amen would not be appropriate for the article (in and of themselves). It means that a science critique of Dr. Amen is less valid.

However-- understanding this does allow other kinds of criticisms of Dr. Amen to be more valid--

A valid criticism is that the science is unproven, (when he may be acting like it is). But an invalid criticism is that other scientists can "know" (in the sense of scientific consensus) that his science is wrong. They can't, and they are engaging in their own puffery when they pretend to be able to do so.

Psychiatry (and it's subset, psychology) are two of the most "puffed" so-called sciences (but the puffery is field-wide, not just specific to Dr. Amen). Sure these fields benefit from adherence to scientific method as much as possible, but they are paradoxically also inherently extremely hard to fully subject to "hard" scientific method.

The illusion perpetuated in the article right now is that his critics are scientific and that the disagreement is based on known science. The truth is that his critics are far less scientific than they make themselves out to be. So the scientific aspect of their criticisms do not hold water as much as they seem to. This is not biochemistry or mechanical engineering or physics, this is psychology, where it is perceived to interface with neurology. As soon as you mix a soft science with a hard science, it can no longer be a pure, hard science.

So Dr. Amen can be legitimately criticized, but not by scientific consensus nearly as much as the article currently implies. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 18:49, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The criticism from sources is that Amen is charging large sums of money for an unproven therapy with potentially harmful side-effects while claiming it works. It's fringe (medical practice) and there is much RS criticism which Misplaced Pages shall (duly) relay. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say - that criticisms should be omitted because you think the whole subject domain is subject to a kind of subjective relativism? If so, RS disagrees with you. Alexbrn 18:59, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

I definitely agree with this part, "Amen is charging large sums of money for an unproven therapy". But I disagree that it is medically FRINGE because the subject is not purely medical, it has a very large component in psychology and so can not be properly evaluated by purely medical means.

Giving the article a medical-fringe angle then implies that psychology is medical when it is not, or not sufficiently so for the purposed of medical fringe or science fringe designations.

2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 19:08, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

My biggest concern is that medicalizing this subject, also encourages medicalizing other psychology articles. Which opens the door to subjecting them all to medical-fringe or science-fringe designations. The ramifications go far beyond this article. Is there evidence of puffery here? This can be substantiated (in opinions in his field, and through knowledge of science). But there is not medical proof that he is wrong.

It's the wrong standard and could be abused elsewhere (in other psychology articles).

Psychology, despite it's inherent resistance to scientific method, deserves to exist and has value, without being hammered by FRINGE accusations. Better that everyone knows to take psychology with a grain of salt, rather than to label all of it as a falsehood.

2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 19:16, 15 March 2014 (UTC) (Sorry, this IP << is me, I forgot to log in). Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

One last point, about "unproven therapy", as his professional critics have complained. Most psychological therapies are actually unproven. However society has agreed to allow psychology to exist, nevertheless, because even though it is murky, it appears to have helped a lot of people (a murky socially-agreed standard for a murky, soft science).

Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 19:52, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Amen is a psychiatrist which is a medical field. Psychiatry has what are considered by the scientific consensus to proven diagnostic and treatment techniques. Despite an editors statements psychology is a scientific field. The mainstream scientific consensus is that it is a field of scientific study. - - MrBill3 (talk) 16:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but psychology and psychiatry are soft sciences, where psychology comes into play within each of these fields. Holding a soft science to a hard science standard is a very difficult thing to do. To allow the good that psychology can bring, one has to accept it's fuzziness. Psychology is nothing like chemistry or physics or biology.2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not differentiate between so-called "hard" and "soft" sciences; it all falls under the purview of plain "science". Ca2james (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Belle Knox

Belle Knox (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Belle Knox is a 19-year-old college freshman who has done porn work to pay for school tuition. She was outed by a fellow classmate, and has been doing national media, and posted essays, under her performer name only. She has cited her, and her families privacy as a concern, in national media.

The article has been pretty stable, and the AfD is looking like it will be kept. What remains is that some news outlets are reporting her real, non-performing, name, but those that are have been found to lie about interviewing her, been tabloids, unreliable blogs, and opinion pieces. There are now some exceptions posted at seen in a new section of the talk page, two days after an RfC was closed advising against adding the name for now.

We might be near a tipping point, but I think we should err to caution.

Could uninvolved editors please look at sources presented in this section, and help determine if the threshold for including her name has been met? Sportfan5000 (talk) 01:11, 17 March 2014 (UTC) Here's a good source for you. http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/mar/12/duke-university-freshman-porn-star-graduated-from/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.174.85 (talk) 00:32, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Possible sources that may meet the threshold

This area is just for posting reliable sources that likely meet the threshold for including her legal name

• Duke University freshman, porn star graduated from Gonzaga Prep - The Spokesman-Review
• Is 'Duke Porn Star' Belle Knox a feminist or a troubled young woman? - Los Angeles Times
• Duke University porn star Belle Knox denies report that her parents are heartbroken - New York Daily News
• Duke University freshman, porn star graduated from Gonzaga Prep - The Seattle Times
• A porn star is born - with support from Duke University - New York Post

Uninvolved editors' comments

There is no doubt the subjects legal name is well sourced, so I fail to see any apparent reason why it can't be included in the article, as is the case with most porn bios. Is there a specific privacy concern? I note that the subject has made several media appearances related to this "outing" FWIW, so it makes reconciling the subjects wish for privacy against promotion an editorial call.Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

It looks like Knox has chosen to use a pseudonym when telling her story. She has also reported threats and bullying.. WP:BLPNAME is pretty clear here - the reasons for not printing her name far outweigh any informative value that readers might gain from knowing her name.GabrielF (talk) 06:06, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that unless Knox has been bandying her real name about, it's not appropriate to mention it in the article even if it can be traced back to a reliable source. I think it's clear that her preference is to be known by the pseudonym, and adding the real name doesn't provide any great service to the reader in understanding the topic. Lankiveil 10:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC).

What is the encyclopedic value in adding her name? Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Some editors think that we should add it because it is all over the news. What we don't know is how those news sites got her name, as it is very possible that they are regurgitating other news reports, which originated from tabloid information. Until she uses her name officially, there is nothing gained from posting her name here. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:44, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for inclusion at this time, but that is quite nonsensical. We accept information from reliable sources, because they are reliable. An organization like the Seattle Times is quite capable of determining a porn actors real name in several ways that we as editors are not permitted to do; the most obvious is checking the custodial records of films that are required to be documented by US law. Your opinion of what is to be gained by using her name is just that, an opinion, which apparently differs from super reliable sources like the LA times.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:43, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I think this issue warrants discussion. I tend to agree with GabrielF and question the encyclopedic value of including her real name but I also think Two kinds of pork has a point. If highly reliable sources find giving her real name worthwhile shouldn't WP follow the sources? It looks like a clash of policies but if enough RS publish it I think it should be included. I don't know what the threshold is. I think we should see how much importance the RS give it. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:00, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be a general misapprehension here that if something is in a reliable source we must include it in WP; that is not the case, please read WP:BLP. It is not our job to out people and if the real name is not widely known and there is the possibility that the person concerned does not want it to be freely available then we should not include it.

If the name is widely known or it is clear that the person concerned does not care then it is just a piece of general information that can be included. We are encyclopedia writers not investigative journalists. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments from involved editors

Knox has comfortably talked about personal aspects of herself, but has explicitly avoided naming herself, and expressed privacy concerns for her, and her family. She has also shared details about the many personal threats she has gotten, including attacks, support for her rape, and death threats. If that is not a textbook case of reasons for Misplaced Pages to avoid doing real world harm I'm not sure what is. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:38, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

• Sportfan's comments are pretty much my big reason why I'm choosing to hold her name back until we have more confirmation in the more reliable of reliable sources. The LAT source is a good step in this direction. I'm worried about the potential real life harm it could do to her, plus there's the fact that she has requested that nobody use her name. There's also a problem with verification, as we need to be very, very sure that this name has been properly checked by any of the sources listing it. Now here's a thought: does anyone know if there's a way we can contact Ms Knox and ask her outright what her thoughts are on this? I don't do Twitter or Tumblr, so I have no way of contacting her through that and by large don't know how to do PMs through those sites. (I also do most of my editing at work or school, so I wouldn't be able to look at her pages for obvious reasons.) I really think that for right now we should continue to leave her name out. I think Kevin put it best on the talk page for Knox. If we use it and we're proven wrong, we'll look like idiots because we didn't wait for enough confirmation. If we do use it and eventually it's proven right beyond a reasonable doubt later, we'll still look like idiots because Knox has openly and repeatedly asked for people to not use her real name, nor has she openly confirmed it. The closest we've come to a truly legitimate source is the Daily Mail article, which is pretty much a tabloid. Everything else seems to be pulling from the DM article and the forums that are tossing her name about. So far most of the press has kept from listing her real name. I really think that we should wait a little more and wait for the news to grow more lax with their choice to hold back from using her real name. We gain nothing at this stage from listing it here. Sure, we can argue that we're an encyclopedia and that we should cover everything uncensored and that not listing it will make us seem ineffective, but at the same time using it without at least waiting a while to get more confirmation from more reliable RS makes us look a little rash and quite frankly, a little bit like we're jerks. I say we play the waiting game. Eventually more places will start using Knox's real name and then we don't have to worry about potential news articles going "Knox has openly requested that nobody use her name and has refused to publicly confirm rumors that she is ___________, despite places like the Daily Mail and Misplaced Pages stating that she is __________". We really wouldn't gain any benefit from listing it. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 04:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Same here. It boils down to the fact that her name hasn't been properly confirmed yet and that it adds little or nothing to the article. If we publish her name or if we're wrong in terms of name or timing it can have huge ramifications for her. There is no rush to add her name or other personal details that makes identification easier until we have good sources that explicitly states how they got her name or if they talked to her. Bjelleklang - talk 07:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

This is not a matter of how reliably we can confirm her real name it is a matter of whether she wants it widely publicised and what harm disregarding this wish may do. This is a core component of WP:BLP Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the article should be deleted (and I hope it is) per WP:PORNBIO, WP:BLP1E, WP:SENSATION, WP:DOGBITESMAN, and WP:EVENTCRIT. If it is kept, unless something changes, we should not print her "real" name, even if there's "proper confirmation". Sportfan5000 and Martin Hogbin have it exactly right. As I wrote at AfD, we have a responsibility to avoid participating in her outing. Lagrange613 20:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Gonzaga Preparatory School‎

Posting of her as an alumni on Gonzaga Preparatory School‎ is taking place. To me this feels like an end run of sorts. It effectively makes identifying her real name much easier, it serves no real purpose on the Gonzaga Preparatory School‎ article, or her own biography at this point. I've removed it once but will rely on others to decide if it crosses the line. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:38, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I've removed it as well for the same reasons. Bjelleklang - talk 07:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Claims not supported directly by reliable sources

shows me removing material which does not appear to be supported by any reliable sources. One term "slut shaming" does appear as a comment to a blog,but that does not seem to be usable. Collect (talk)

Your assumptions of bad faith are astounding.

she's also been mercilessly trolled - or ‘slut shamed’, as several resulting comment pieces have named the vitriol - for her chosen method of financing her education.(Belle Knox: How the porn star student from Duke University became bigger than Justin Bieber)

Every other word comes from reliable sources as well. I wouldn't have used them if they didn't. I'd appreciate you reverting yourself, but based on my past experiences I see that as unlikely, even though I was directly addressing another, very similar-acting editor's constant insinuation that Miss Knox's death threats cannot be verified, and your assertion that she's making too much a fuss over all those peaky threats of violence, harassment and death threats, among other allegations. Sportfan5000 (talk) 16:03, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Paywalled material is notoriously hard to verify -- and you provide the only source using the term and ascribing it to "media outlets" in general -- you have, in fact, s single paywalled source which does not say what you appear to think it does. Sorry -- Misplaced Pages has this very annoying requirement that contentious claims have strong reliable sources behind them for any BLP -- and the fact is that "reading between the lines" and ascribing general opinions to "media sources" which reflect a single article in a single source does not fly. The actual source is an opinion piece in The Guardian and as such is an opinion of the "director of the Ethical Porn Partnership and author of Bound To You. " (a former professional dominatrix) and not a "fact" to be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice (thanks for showing me where to look for the "actual source.") Perhaps next time you will look at the "actual source" for claims? Collect (talk) 18:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

You have an odd way of apologizing. I'll accept this as your best try. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:40, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Collect, this reliable source provided by Sportsfan5000 supports the exact language he cited, and it is not paywalled. Even if it were paywalled—which it's not—we don't reject paywalled sources. So you're wrong about the source being paywalled, and you're wrong about the policy that would hypothetically apply if it were paywalled. And you're trumpeting your erroneous views in a highly patronizing tone. I think that's why Sportsfan5000 is irritated with you.

Separately, the Guardian piece meets WP:RSOPINION, which doesn't contain an exception for opinion pieces authored by professional dominatrixes (dominatrices?) FWIW, though, I agree with you that the entire article should be deleted as a canonical example of WP:BLP1E. MastCell  23:51, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The Independent is definitely paywalled -- it asks for 99 cents on my computer -- so I trust you would accept that as a fact. Meanwhile Sportfan5000 has been found to be a sock of a banned user at this point in any case. Collect (talk) 18:23, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The Independent is most certainly not paywalled. The source indicated above by Mastcell is eminently clickable. Perhaps your computer has been taken over by aliens. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:25, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The page has been deleted. Can we talk about something else now? Jinkinson talk to me 05:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Apparently not. Lagrange613 06:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

David Kagen

The website on David Kagen, http://www.davidkagen.com/html/newhome.html is out of date and incorrect. The correct website is www.davidkagen.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.251.159.49 (talk) 15:49, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou. I've updated the information. - Bilby (talk) 07:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Heleen Mees

• Heleen Mees (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

A couple of IP accounts battling over content with BLP ramifications. Could use some eyes on this, and a lever to pry them apart. JNW (talk) 02:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

• I've blocked both of them for edit warring, and will keep an eye on the IPs and the article. Bjelleklang - talk 09:37, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. JNW (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Reblocked both IPs yesterday for a week after both started a new edit-revert cycle without attempting to discuss any issue. Bjelleklang - talk 17:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

John Mutton (Canadian politician)

John Mutton (Canadian politician) The author of this article, who the page claims may be close to the subject, repeatedly has deleted neutral comments which are well-sourced in order to preserve a one-sided image. Please review edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.187.248 (talk) 06:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Removal of alleged offences for which the person concerned was not found guilty is in accordance with WP:BLP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Jeff Stein

The link within the bio pic portion of the article has the name www.jeffstein.info. That leads to a Chinese language wev page that is some kind of spam filler page when translated...references to "non-nude" women, etc. While ironically comical it is totally irrelevant to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.77.83 (talk) 07:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou. I've removed the link. - Bilby (talk) 07:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Leonid Kozhara

The article in English states he was born in 1983, but the Ukraininan article states his year of birth was 1963. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.114.12.186 (talk) 10:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. It appears to have been vandalised. That, or he finished his university degree with he was 3 years old. :) I've changed it back. - Bilby (talk) 12:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Andrew Slattery

Andrew Slattery the poet is not the same person as Andrew Slattery the screenwriter. The poet is Australian, the screenwriter lives in Newcastle, England. OTRS Ticket:2014031910000281 applies. Editors of Andrew Slattery (poet) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) have decided, based on the fact that the link seems to exist in a few external sources, that they are one and the same. I see no reason at all to dispute the correspondent in the ticket. The email address would simply not be available were the claim bogus, as far as I can tell. Guy (Help!) 13:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm one of the other editors Guy mentions. This isn't the first time this subject has been to BLP/N (or AN), but I'd welcome fresh other editors' input on the article talkpage where the issue has been discussed for many months. The concern raised is not the authenticity of this and other OTRS emails, but that (based on external sources) the subject is not telling the truth and the cause (or at least intended effect) contradicts our WP:NPOV policy. DMacks (talk) 17:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Mass BLP violation, potential libel in List of Bohemian Club members

The Bohemian Grove is a highly controversial group. Insinuations on the Bohemian Grove page indicate that men run around naked in the woods together and are homosexuals. That's why I'm disturbed by the List of Bohemian Club members page. The page provides no sources for dozens of the alleged "members", and also lists as members those who merely gave a lecture at the Grove but are not members.

The page was created and largely edited by User:Binksternet (he has made 82 edits while the second closest user has made 8). Can an admin intervene and delete (or conform to RS standards) this potentially libelous page? Binksternet should also be sanctioned for unacceptable mass-breach of BLP policy.

Note, I crossed the above because this is the wrong forum for requesting user sanctions, even though they are richly deserved in this case. The BLP violation and mass-libel is the more pertinent issue. Steeletrap (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Binksternet has no responsibility whatsoever for the addition of material by other editors. If you see a problem, you're welcome to fix it yourself. For requests re sanctions against another editor, this is not the right place. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:43, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The problem is immense. No one user can fix it. I am disappointed by your apparent indifference to the mass BLP violation and potential libel on the page (which is a much more relevant issue than punishing Binksternet's for adding inadequate sources). Steeletrap (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Are you currently fixing it? If not, whose indifference is it? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Could you be specific as to the controversial nature of the group, and where the Grove article 'indicate(s) that men run around naked in the woods together and are homosexuals'? I'm having a hard time seeing the libel. JNW (talk) 14:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Directly from the Bohemian Grove article: "The Bohemian club! Did you say Bohemian club? That's where all those rich Republicans go up and stand naked against redwood trees, right? I've never been to the Bohemian club but you oughta go. It'd be good for you. You'd get some fresh air."—President Bill Clinton to a heckler

"The Bohemian Grove, that I attend from time to time—the Easterners and the others come there—but it is the most faggy goddamn thing you could ever imagine, that San Francisco crowd that goes in there; it's just terrible! I mean I won't shake hands with anybody from San Francisco."—President Richard M. Nixon on the Watergate tapes, Bohemian Club member starting in 1953. Steeletrap (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Right. I think it's fairly clear that both are hyperbolic statements, and neither say that men run around naked in the woods and are homosexuals. The only credible mention of graphic behavior I found was that rich men like to pee in the woods. It's a long stretch from there to libel. JNW (talk) 14:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

That said, of course unsourced content ought to be removed, with or without BLP concerns. There are also a lot of redlinks on the list, so they can probably go, too. But it is amusing to read the two Presidents' comments, one glib and referring to the members as conservatives, the other paranoid and suggesting unclean liberals. JNW (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

This BLP/N report looks like an outgrowth of the Austrian Economics dispute that is currently before the Arbitration Committee. Steeletrap and Binksternet have been opponents in that dispute and are both parties to that case; and this edit summary by Steeletrap, right before this BLP/N report, makes it clear that this is tied to the ongoing conflict in that topic. If no clear BLP violations are present in the List of Bohemian Club members page, I recommend this be closed and any editor behavior issues deferred to Arbcom for resolution. alanyst 15:13, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

So this is WP:POINTY. Recommendation seconded. JNW (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

You're both being petty and appear indifferent to mass BLP violations (any unsourced material about BLPs violates policy, particularly regarding membership of controversial group). The insinuations from the former Presidents provide ample reason to make sure no one is erroneously listed as a member of the Grove. That you subjectively deem the Grove not to be controversial doesn't change the fact that RS do.

For instance, the Los Angeles Times reports that the Grove was subject to substantial public criticism in the early 1990s. The White House insisted that public criticism over Clinton aid David Gergen's membership in the Grove had nothing to do with his eventual resignation from the Grove, but it's clear that a controversy arose. Gergen also told the Washington Times that he no longer wanted to go to the Grove because he didn't 'want to run around naked in the woods'.

Leaving Binksternet out of it, as I've agreed to do, should put POINTY concerns to rest. But ignoring these problems because of alleged (unproven) personal motivations is disrespectful of the community's policies and norms. Steeletrap (talk) 15:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Steeltrap, a simple question: what action regarding these alleged libels had you taken prior to raising this matter here? I can see no evidence of you either editing the articles nor raising the matter on any article talk page . What was stopping you from doing so? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

If nothing else, there was the opportunity to call several editors petty, indifferent and disrespectful. JNW (talk) 16:09, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I posted a notice to the talk page weeks ago (which Andy didn't notice because he was too focused on attacking me to glance at the talk page) which was dismissed by Binksternet. I didn't edit the article because the task appeared overwhelming. There are dozens and dozens of unsourced or poorly sourced "members" listed on the page. I have done my part by posting here.

Also, how exactly are my shortcomings relevant to this issue? The focus here appears to making digs at me, rather than addressing the clear-cut BLP violations on these pages. The sole question should be: "Does this page have BLP violations"? The answer to that question seems to be "who cares"? It's petty behavior like this that makes me fear for the future of the community. Steeletrap (talk) 16:11, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

If you want to get help with BLP violations, then make a post that discusses only the aspects of the article that need fixing. Instead of doing that, you made a post here that included a call for sanctions against another editor. This has naturally led people to wonder what your real interest is -- and it hasn't been hard to determine that. So if you're wondering how things got off track here, go find a mirror. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I deleted the reference to Binksternet early on and haven't spoken about it since. Who cares what my motivations/shortcomings are? Who cares what your motivations/shortcomings are? Why can't we discuss the BLP issue? Steeletrap (talk) 16:26, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: The list based on the Bohemian Club's self-published "Constitution and By-Laws" including members is a "primary source" and unless a reliable secondary source publishes a name in a list I consider that the material fails WP:RS at the start. Collect (talk) 16:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the BLP allegation is pretty weak. The presidents comments are obviously making fun of the group. But there is no serious allegation that it is a club for homosexuals. The insults called the group "faggoty", "gay" etc. That was a fairly common insult for quite a long time about anything people thought was dumb or foolish, and reading it as an actual accusation of homosexuality is quite contrived. The Running around naked in the woods, primal drum circle type thing is a well worn stereotype of many mens groups and has been parodied all over the place. get a grip. That said membership in the group should be sourced, but that is because of basic WP:V, not a libel WP:BLP issue. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Gaijin42, please see the David Gergen content above. Doesn't the fact that there was a public controversy over the Grove make you concerned about listing people as members without adequate sources? Steeletrap (talk) 16:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Focusing strictly on the BLP question: Ascribing membership in an organization to a living person is certainly subject to BLP rules, and so with respect to this list of Bohemian Club members, each item in the list corresponding to a living person (and, really, whether living or dead shouldn't matter per WP:V) should be backed by a reliable source. If there are any items in the list that are unsourced or poorly sourced, go ahead and remove them; the burden is then on the person who wishes to restore them to locate reliable sources for them. However, I don't see a prima facie case that membership is inherently controversial to the point that adding a name without a source is tantamount to libel. A few quotes that cast a negative light on the organization are not enough; otherwise the same charge could be leveled on anyone who added unsourced names to lists of members of the Boy Scouts of America, the Democratic Party (United States), or Greenpeace, which have all been subject to negative characterizations by notable figures.

TL;DR: go ahead and remove unsourced names from the list but characterizing it as "potential libel" is inflammatory. alanyst 16:34, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I am glad you have conceded the BLP problem. Please note my deliberate use of the adverb "potentially" to modify "libelous." Steeletrap (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the gergen thing, the NYT eventually issued a correction on that point, specifically the "naked in the woods" thing http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CEED61131F932A25755C0A965958260 Gaijin42 (talk) 16:43, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Gaijin42, that "correction" doesn't have to do with my original statement, which came from Gergen himself and not the Times. Moreover, the Times doesn't concede the statement about running naked in the woods was false. It just says it should have provided a source for that claim and didn't, and notes that a spokesman for the Grove denies the charges. In any case, what's relevant is that there was a public controversy about the group (it appeared in several newspapers according to the Times), and that it was subject to unflattering rumors. David Gergen was forced to resign from it because of the controversy. This is sufficient for a BLP and even a libel concern. Steeletrap (talk) 17:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Given the WP:BLP issues raised here, I've removed all names lacking a citation. Though BLP policy clearly doesn't apply to all those previously named (many are dead), I can see no legitimate grounds for including any names without a reference - if it isn't referenced, how are we supposed to be able to verify it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

• Alanyst expressed the same thought I had when I saw this discussion crop up on my Notifications, that it was a POINTy disruption from Steeletrap who has previously been in conflict with me on topics relating to Austrian Economics. At the Bo Club list talk page, I invited Steeletrap to help sort out the perceived sourcing problems, but Steeletrap did nothing. Here, Nomoskedacity expressed the same thought I had, that Steeletrap appears to be less concerned about fixing perceived problems than about linking them to me. AndyTheGrump quickly fixed the problems, so this discussion should be closed with its explicitly stated problem fixed. The undercurrent of Steeletrap hoping to get some flung mud to stick to me must be seen as a failed attempt. Binksternet (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It was a mistake to raise alleged behavior issues on the wrong forum (you can call that a "failed attempt" if you want). However, the longstanding BLP issues with the page, regarding poor sources and unsourced content, are clear. I'm glad the unsourced material has been addressed but the poorly sourced material (e.g. from primary sources) also needs to be removed, per Collect's remarks. I agree that we should not discuss the conduct of any user specifically, but the BLPN posting should not be closed until we address the poorly sourced content. Steeletrap (talk) 18:00, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The only names it seems likely to be problematic per WP:BLP concerns are those cited to a 1960 Bohemian Club document (other primary sources date from 1904 and 1922). There is nothing preventing you removing them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

No, Andy. For the rest, the sources may be OK but they are not used properly. In other words, they are used to establish "membership" in the Grove when, in some cases, they only indicate that there was one visit or speech to the Grove. Steeletrap (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

There is still nothing preventing you removing poorly-sourced material. Come to that, there is nothing to prevent you nominating the article for deletion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Doubt that would succeed, but we should remove the redlinked names. Dougweller (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

This article is a joke. Through various edits, I just removed dozens of names whose art was displayed at the Grove, but have no other connection. They were all listed as "members." As I say, given the public controversy surrounding the group (which led a Clinton Administration official to publicly repudiate it) this sort of thing is potentially libelous and an egregious BLP violation (or, if they're all dead, at least a violation of WP:V). Steeletrap (talk) 12:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Your conclusion relies on the assumption that membership the Bohemian Club is controversial to its own members. The assumption is severely flawed. Do you know of any 'outed' member who has denied membership? If you can find even one it will be an edge case. Binksternet (talk) 19:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't directly engage Binksternet, per a voluntary IBAN in Austrian econ sanctions. What I can say is that Newt Gingrich adamantly denies membership and David Gergen refuses to discuss the activities of the Grove, and is offended and defensive when the question is raised. Moreover, WP:BLP and (in the case of the dead) WP:V still must be followed even with respect to uncontroversial issues. The article as it currently stands is riddled with primary sources, unreliable secondary sources, and misinterpretations of RS (e.g. inferring that a group of artists whose paintings were exhibited at the Grove were/are all "members" of the Grove). I spent a lot of time this morning trying to fix this stuff but everything I did was reverted. Steeletrap (talk) 20:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

The OP writes: "Insinuations on the Bohemian Grove page indicate that men run around naked in the woods together and are homosexuals. That's why I'm disturbed by the List of Bohemian Club members page." I have to ask how this discussion became so long with such an offensively worded and clearly opinionated beginning. I'll read up a bit...but so far what I am seeing is this editor "just doesn't like it".--Mark Miller (talk) 20:44, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

This is just odd. "Offensively worded"? I'm just describing the allegations against the group.

And yes, I am "opinionated" insofar as I, like every OP here, think BLP policy is being violated. (your view (based, as you admit, on inadequate reading of the page in question) that this is purely an OP "doesn't like it" posting is also "opinionated"). Steeletrap (talk) 00:39, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Your POV is obvious and the whole purpose of your initial posting was that, to be called a member of a group of "insinuationed" naked homosexuals disturbs you. And your comprehension of my words is way off. I said I would read up a bit...on this thread. Your continued assumptions are insulting and purposely aimed at your own moral ideology which, frankly I don't care about. Your attempts to peg the Club as a group of Homosexuals and why it disturbs you is based on separate articles, one being a single event held once a year. To be clear...I have more than an "adequate" understanding of the subject. I have contributed to the Bohemian Grove article and was, in fact my first encounter with Binksternet, who I think has done a rather good job with their contributions to the article. And what kind of editor makes a voluntary ban and then attacks an article where one of the major contributors is someone you can't interact with?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:00, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm transgender so I hardly think there is anything wrong with being gay (or, for that matter, running naked in the woods). I think you misunderstand what "libelous" means. You probably should brush up on it; it's pretty easy to understand even for us legal laypeople, and is important to learn about because it occurs fairly often on WP.

It is libelous to publish an article that says (as a matter of fact) someone is gay who the author has no good reason is gay, and is in fact not. What matters is if someone endures harm from the false statement made about her or him, not whether that statement would be 'bad' if it were true. We agree there is nothing wrong with being gay. Steeletrap (talk) 15:01, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Mark clearly understands the key element of the dispute, that Steeletrap intends to harm me with this discussion, despite the claim that there is a self-imposed interaction ban preventing Steeletrap from talking to me. It's contradictory and silly. Binksternet (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the red herring issue of gays, Phillips writes a whole lot about the Bohemian Club but he says nothing about members being gay or homosexual. He dismisses an "outsider" myth about the Bohemian Grove which holds that the waiters are gay and they provide sex to members after hours. From what I have personally seen of the Bohemian Club, which is limited to impressions taken in the 1980s and '90s, the membership includes a small percentage of homosexuals, probably the same as found in the general population. When I worked occasionally as an audio engineer at the Bohemian Grove and Club in 1990–93, none of the people who seemed gay to me was a captain of industry or a political figure. Rather, the gay men were almost all found in the arts: costumers, musicians, etc. None of these men were notable by Misplaced Pages standards, so it is likely that the list article with all its names of Bo Club members contains no gays. In any case, the club membership does not worry very much about this issue, it being composed primarily of heterosexual men. Binksternet (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Gregg Easterbrook

Hi Wiki editors,

I am Gregg Easterbrook. I do not object to anything in the entry under my name. But if I had my druthers, I would replace it with a much shorter, simpler entry and cite secondary sources.

I would be happy to propose such an entry myself then transmit it to the appropriate editor/editors. But I don't know how to do so.

If any editor could offer me advice, I would be grateful. I note the instruction not to post an email here. My email can be found at http://greggeasterbrook.com/contact.html

Thank you -- Gregg Easterbrook

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregg Easterbrook (talk • contribs) 15:48, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I would be happy to help you. Please click on the following link: User talk:Gregg Easterbrook#Request for assistance --Guy Macon (talk) 16:12, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The BLP has been fixed up, and we're awaiting any further feedback from the article subject.Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Done.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:35, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Paul Sandip

Lucius Shepard reported dead.

according to this on http://www.sfsite.com/ Lucius Shepard died on the 19th. I do not doubt it as has not been well. but do not feel it appropriate for me to amend the article at this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonW11 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Reports of Lucius Shepard's death on March 18 are now visible in reliable sources and the Misplaced Pages article has been updated accordingly. EdJohnston (talk) 21:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Suggesting a living person should be jailed

Is it appropriate, given the BLP guidelines, that in a thread above an editor suggests that a living person should be jailed? Isn't that tantamount to calling someone a criminal? Thanks. TimidGuy (talk) 16:26, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I asked a simple question, I did not say that he is a criminal. There are several possible answers, none of which have been furnished as yet. He could, for instance, have been found not criminally responsible for various reasons. It could be that someone has been hacking his website to present these falsehoods. It could be that prosecutors have never considered charges, or that they were unable to make them stick, or that charges are still in the courts, or that they settled out of court. He may even be in a jurisdiction which does not consider such actions to be unlawful. I don't think we should be guessing, we should be trying to find out what the explanation is. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not about what should be but about what is.--SimonW11 (talk) 17:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

No. WP:BLP applies everywhere, not just articles. So, LeadSongDog, don't do that. §FreeRangeFrog 17:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

He didn't actually suggest that Joe should be in jail - it was asked why he isn't in jail, and it looks very rhetorical to me. There is a difference. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 17:49, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Aye. Don't rhetorical questions exist for a reason? If we force editors to make outright declarations, aren't we no better than thieves, stealing away the avenues down which our forefathers backpedaled? I say he worded it well enough. Who here hasn't bent a rule or two on a talk page? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:50, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see "Wow, how is this guy not in jail" as being a BLP violation, but it certainly is WP:SOAPBOXing, does nothing to improve the encyclopedia, and adds fuel to the argument that Misplaced Pages is biased. We all need to stick to the question of whether such pages reflect what is in the sources, and to keep going back to that question when someone accuses us of bias. Personal opinions like "Wow, how is this guy not in jail" are simply not helpful. --22:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Aye on the first two charges, nay on the more serious one of fire-fueling. It's only Misplaced Pages's voice when there's no username attached (ahem). LeadSongDog, unlike "us", is only human. He has views, but they don't necessarily reflect the views of this station. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:23, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Nope, it's not appropriate, but I also don't think it's worth having a long discussion about which brings even more attention to this remark. So I move that we table this discussion and issue the appropriate trouts. Gamaliel (talk) 22:32, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Note for non-US editors; "table" means "withdraw" as opposed to the completely opposite European meaning. Black Kite (talk) 01:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Weird. I didn't knew that. Question Time makes a lot more sense now. Gamaliel (talk) 04:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

And I didn't know the rest of the English-speaking world counted as European. Fun fact. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:02, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Mubin Shaikh

This page is poorly formatted and contains highly subjective opinion with little citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.225.180 (talk) 04:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Pattern of BLP issues surrounding tech CEOs

Recent edits and follow a final BLP warning User_talk:Solarlive#Charles_Jaco I issued after previous incidents, in particular Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive196#Startup_company_.E2.80.8E_-_describing_someone_as_a_psychopath....

I applied a block myself, but quickly realized that an edit or two (without BLP implications) at Google bus protests may leave me "involved", so I reverted the block, and am now reporting here for someone else to figure out what to do with. I'll leave a note for the editor. Cheers, --j⚛e decker 06:19, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Solarlive has made multiple clear and unambiguous WP:BLP violations - I've reverted, but I think this should probably be raised at WP:ANI if it continues. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Clearly not here to build an encyclopedia, and has the audacity to claim that editors use POV to exclude free thinkers, while deleting content as "POV" on another article. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Elizabeth Truss

• Elizabeth Truss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I've never contributed to Misplaced Pages before (sorry!) but I've been moved to write by moral outrage. I visited Elizabeth Truss's wikipedia because I saw her name in the news and I wondered if it was the same prospective parliamentary candidate I had recalled reported as having an affair many years ago. It was, but I only found this out through other websites. Looking into the history of the page I found that references to the affair have been consistently removed by the user Upswift, going back several years. References to the (widely reported, and not denied) affair have been independently inserted by many different users but consistently deleted by Upswift. Upswift says here that the fact that the 'sensitive private matter occurs several years before the subject became a public figure is in contravention of the BLP guidelines.' I have read through the guidelines (although of course I defer to other user's greater knowledge and understanding of Misplaced Pages) but I cannot find any reference to this guideline. Anyway, this would appear to be an odd principle - the idea that if someone had been involved in something noteworthy prior to them becoming a public figure that information should be withheld from their Misplaced Pages article. In any case, Upswift is arguing that the subject only became a public figure on 'being elected to Parliament in 2010'; this would appear to me to be disingenuous. The affair was widely reported on when Elizabeth Truss was on the Conservative candidates A-list and seeking to be elected. The affair was with a member of the Shadow Cabinet and even so both parties were central to the news coverage (The Daily Mail headline: A-list Tory's affair with married Cameron high-flyer - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-387015/A-list-Torys-affair-married-Cameron-high-flyer.html); i.e. it's not like she was a nobody who had an affair with a public figure - she was as much a part of the story as him. The idea that someone only becomes a public figure when elected I would suggest is problematic (how are the public meant to find out about the people they are thinking of voting for?!) Surely when someone puts themselves up for national office they become a public figure (however minor). Upswift says, referencing the BLP guidelines: 'in particular, "it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives". Quoting this seems to me to misunderstand the guidlines - Misplaced Pages is not being the primary vehicle for spreading claims as the affair has already been widely reported on and has not been denied by the parties involved. Upswift mentions the need to protect the family of Elizabeth Truss, which is an admirable concern. In the article the name of Elizabeth's spouse is given, and the article mentions that she has daughters (not named). (I note in passing that Upswift refers to the BLP guidelines about 'Privacy of names'- her quote from this section seems to me to be taken out of context). Presumably Upswift is suggesting that these parties will be hurt by being reminded of a painful incident; it is an interesting topic of debate whether information should be removed from wikipedia to spare individuals' embarassment; but in any case we need not have this debate as the story is clearly widely accessible through various news agencies - so I am not clear how the censorship of wikipedia will protect these individuals. Another debate that could be had is whether the public has a right to know about what some consider moral transgressions, from an individual's past, when they are seeking or holding public office. But again, that debate is not even relevant here because the events were already noteworthy at the time and had an impact on her professional life! The news of the affair meant that she faced a vote to remove her as a Conservative parliamentary candidate. Indeed the information about the impact on Truss's career is clearer on Mark Field's page (with whom she had the affair) than it is on Truss's page!

The only (very implicit) information on the affair in the current article is worth quoting below, in text originally entered by Upswift (22 Nov 2011). Not only is the text a little rambling, it is also clearly sanctified - ie withholding the rather pertinent point that the 'withheld information' in question was about her affair. As a member of the public who came to find out about that incident, that seems a lot more important than a lot of the information that is included in this paragraph: "In October 2009, she was selected for the Norfolk seat by members of the constituency Conservative Association, and won over 50% of the vote in the first round of the final against five other candidates, one of whom was local to the county. However, shortly afterwards, some members of the constituency Association, dubbed the 'Turnip Taliban' and led by former High Sheriff of Norfolk Sir Jeremy Bagge, 7th Baronet, objected to Truss’s selection, claiming that information about the candidate had been withheld from the members. A motion was proposed to terminate Truss’s candidature, but this was defeated by 132 votes to 37 at a general meeting of the Association’s members three weeks later. "

I note one reason Upswift gave for removing information about the affair, on this instance in 2011 (although Upswift has used a whole range of justifications for censoring the page across the years), was "the reason for the failed deselection attempt was also due to the perception of how the Con Party had handled the selection process." Perhaps this is true, I was not there, but Upswift cites no sources and this is completely at odds with the way the news was reported, eg: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8327362.stm

Upswift has quoted the BLP policy, but what the BLP policy does clearly say is that: "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." To cap it off the very example given in the BLP policy is about a politician having an alleged affair! This affair in this instance is not even alleged - it has not been denied and it had a direct impact on her political career. A variety of different users have tried to add this information over the years and as far as I can see it is only Upswift, consistently Upswift, who has removed this information. Finally, the two people who replied to the topic when brought up on the BLP noticeboard in February 2013 both suggested that the information about the affair should be included in the article, but Upswift removed it anyway. In summary, to me this all smacks of censorship. But anyway, you don't need to take it from me as the page history speaks for itself.

The information about the affair has - at different times - been included in (and removed by Upswift from) the 'Personal life' section and the 'Candidate' section. I will not presume to put it back in myself, but I appeal to any reasonable disinterested parties that it should be included. Please sort this out, good people of Misplaced Pages.

PREVIOUS BLP NOTICEBOARD COMMENTS: Elizabeth Truss

So the point is that Misplaced Pages shouldn't be the primary vehicle spreading negative information. If the only source for the affair were the Daily Mail, then we should leave it out, as the Daily Mail is often considered borderline as a source, specifically because it tends towards scandals. Here, however, we have a plethora of better sources documenting the affair: The Guardian; The New Statesman; even the three called the UK newspaper of record, The Telegraph; The Independent; The Times. It is hard to ask for better sources. It is worth a sentence or two; and no, it is not sufficient to write "information about the candidate had been withheld", if The Times and The Telegraph and The Independent all believe it's worth writing that she was accused of having an affair, then we should too. --GRuban (talk) 14:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

At first glance it seems this would meet the basic inclusion threshold for negative information, as it had an impact on the subject's career. But I'm going to defer to Upswift and see if he can explain his rationale. §FreeRangeFrog 17:11, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello there. The original reporting of the "affair" appeared (as far as I am aware) in the Mail in 2006. After she had been selected for her seat in October 2009, the Mail repeated these claims. The coverage in the Mail prompted the attempt to deselect her, which itself was covered by the newspapers of record that GRuban mentions. These newspapers make reference to an affair in relation to the Mail's reporting of it triggering a reaction from a section of the constituency membership, as they felt that information had been withheld from them. (I added the results of the deselection vote to indicate that the concern was a minority view.) My points, as I made in the BLP Noticeboard last year, still stand in that the fuss re the Turnip Taleban is mentioned and backed up by cited references. It is not Misplaced Pages's role to repeat tabloid gossip itself, but the implications arising (from the reactions of some who were influenced by it) is covered, and cited references are provided.

It should be noted that at least 5 of the users who have inserted the information that I have removed have been blocked by Misplaced Pages administrators as sockpuppets. It was therefore entirely right that their edits should have been reversed. I notice that the references to her on Mark Field's page were removed (by Collect) in February 2013, but later added back by 213.105.28.79, one of the IP addresses that was temporarily blocked for sockpuppetry. I would agree with what Collect wrote and that this does not belong there in this detail. I also feel that the wording used by these blocked users, saying that she "admitted" an affair was somewhat loaded.

Having initiated the discussion of this matter in the first place, 2 responses were added by others (one from an IP address that had made only 1 previous contribution to Misplaced Pages, which was to vandalise an article) - I addressed their points in my subsequent reply on the Noticeboard, and no further response was received to challenge what I had written.

The Misplaced Pages page for Truss mentions her husband's name, and so links him (and by extension, their children) to the personal life section. I think that "the presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons" is very strong here, so I stand by what I wrote on the BLP Noticeboard on 3 February 2013. I don't see it as censorship, but a non-sensationalist view of the subject, which is something different. I don't think that "moral outrage" is sufficient to justify inclusion of titillating aspects of tabloid gossip. Note also that political figures are bound to create opposing viewpoints and it is realistic to assume that opponents will wish to include what they perceive as negative details. But I don't think that should override the fair and objective non-sensationalist style of writing - something that I have sought to do, but I don't pretend that I always get it right - hence my raising the issue myself in the first instance on the BLP Noticeboard. Upswift (talk) 18:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

@Upswift: Thank you, very well put. I have no problem with the way the information is presented at this point in the article. You are correct that we are not a tabloid, and the paragraph in question ultimately does reference this controversy. It's certainly better than what has been added in the past. And I'd agree that WP:NPF applies here as well. §FreeRangeFrog 18:41, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I, on the other hand, still believe we should mention that it was an alleged affair. As the IP writes, this is exactly the case described in WP:PUBLICFIGURE - a politician accused of an affair, covered by a multiplicity of reliable newspapers. Surely that hypothetical case can be assumed to have hypothetical less prominent relatives; it's not much of an affair if the two people involved are single. We aren't writing much of an article if we say - "There was a scandal, but we won't tell you what it was about." We don't have to dwell on it, but a sentence or two seems required. --GRuban (talk) 18:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

@GRuban: I won't deny your point, certainly. How would you word a change to that? §FreeRangeFrog 19:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

GRuban, we evidently don't agree. The accusation of the affair was made in a tabloid newspaper. The "reliable newspapers" make reference to it only in the context of the subsequent attempt to deselect her which was triggered by the repeat of the accusations in the Mail. That controversy is specifically referenced in the Candidate section, as FreeRangeFrog acknowledges, and there are cited references included. You can argue the other way as you have done, but on BLP issues it is right to err on the side of caution, and, in my view, the existing words strike an appropriate balance. Upswift (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

That's all right; I'll try to convince you, but it would be a dull world if everyone agreed all the time, wouldn't it? :-) If the accusation had been left in a tabloid, we would also leave it. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't cover it once the reliable sources do. It's neither the first nor the last scandal that was first broken in a tabloid that we cover, for example Gary_Hart#1988 presidential campaign and the Donna Rice affair; John Edwards extramarital affair. This affair does not seem as influential as those, so shouldn't get as much play, which is why I recommend a sentence or two only. And as for the wording, for the Frog, I'd change the current "claiming that information about the candidate had been withheld from the members." to "claiming that she had attempted to cover up a 2005 affair with Conservative MP Mark Field." and use The Telegraph and The Independent articles as references. (I can't see the entirety of the Times article, so don't know if it names Field, but the Telegraph and Independent both do, and they also seem clear that the affair took place, even the Times seems to only use "accused" about the coverup, not the affair.) --GRuban (talk) 19:38, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with this. The fact that something was once published in a tabloid doesn't mean it is forever off limits; once it's a subject of proper coverage in a proper source it might merit inclusion here. I do think the "withheld information" treatment isn't sufficiently informative in this context. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:45, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I also agree, but suggest that the initial reporting of the affair be definitively attributed to the Mail, including an inline explanation of the Mail being a gossip rag. Two kinds of pork (talk) 20:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies, which are well-made, although I'm still not convinced, as the instances of Gary Hart and John Edwards relate to activities after the person had already been elected and become a public figure. Also, it doesn't address the WP:NPF issue and the presumption in favour of family members. In any case, the words she "attempted to cover up" are stronger than implied in the two cited references: the Telegraph says "kept secret" which is a more passive activity, and the Independent article says that it was Conservative Central Office that withheld the information, rather than Truss. Upswift (talk) 20:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I would accept "claiming that she had kept secret" or "claiming that she had not revealed". --GRuban (talk) 20:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Although an improvement, and backed up by the Telegraph citation, even these two phrasings do not reflect the context of what she obliged to reveal, and are contradicted by the wording of the Eastern Daily Press article (already referenced in the article) and the quote by Sir Jeremy Bagge in the Independent article. At the selection meeting, Truss was not asked to reveal anything - Sir Jeremy makes clear in his Independent quote that it was Conservative Central Office (CCO) that was responsible for this withheld information at the meeting. CCO would undoubtedly have been aware at the application stage of the selection of Truss's past - I presume that Truss herself would have volunteered the information at this stage; I have certainly seen no indication that she didn't. So, as she was not given an opportunity to raise it at the selection meeting itself, it is (given the context of the selection protocol) misleading (whatever the Telegraph says) to suggest that she herself did not reveal it. The apparent contradiction in the reporting of the Telegraph and Independent illustrates the danger of relying on what are regarded as "reliable sources". The fact is that the information was withheld from members at the meeting, as the article currently states. Given my various earlier comments, I am not persuaded that further details on this are required in any case. Upswift (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Richard John Taylor

Hi, it looks like Misplaced Pages may have been used to support a false narrative about this individual; see this article in the Guardian. Article could probably use trimming back to the bare basics and rebuilt. 92.20.13.70 (talk) 11:53, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Abby Martin

User:Yambaram is violating WP:BLP by turning a biographical article on Abby Martin into a poorly sourced, critical attack on her full of unsubstantiated opinion, gossip, and rumor. Per the BLP policy, I have removed it, but since this user is a SPA solely concerned with pushing a singular POV, I have brought this problem to the BLP board. Viriditas (talk) 12:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Note, I've left my reasoning for removing the specific content and sources here. I cannot imagine any scenario where Yambaram's edits are deemed acceptable. Viriditas (talk) 12:38, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I note much was properly removed, but in some cases opinions from notable sources, properly cited as opinion, may be used in BLPs and I think some of the bathwater removal got rid of the baby as well. Collect (talk) 12:40, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to discuss specific sources here or on the talk page. I'll be offline for a while.Viriditas (talk) 12:41, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I edited the article in accordance to the WP:BLP guidelines, and added valid inforamtion to the "reception and criticism" section with reliable sources. Saying I'm an WP:SPA here is a personal attack, especially considering the fact that I've created dozens and edited hundreds of different articles about movies, websites, musicians, actors, philanthropists, sports, science, education, science, companies, bands, and yes, politics too. Anyone is welcome to take a look for themselves, or I could provide you the diffs my myself. 'Viriditas' has not provided any legitimate reason for the removal of properly cited content by the The Algemeiner. As 'Collect' rightly said, "in some cases opinions from notable sources, properly cited as opinion, may be used in BLPs". Apparently, according to 'Viriditas' every source that criticizes Abby Martin is automatically not neutral or notable. I'd appreciate it if an admin could take a look at this issue please, thanks in advance. Yambaram (talk) 16:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

In this edit, Yambaram writes in Misplaced Pages's voice that Martin "has a history of spewing anti-Israel propaganda." (It was subsequently removed by another editor.) If Yambaram adds material in that mode again, I will propose a BLP topic ban at ANI (and I encourage other editors to do the same if they notice it first). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I really did not mean to write it in Misplaced Pages's voice, it was a minor accident which I fixed here before even seeing this comment by 'Nomoskedasticity'. I added a lot of criticism to that section as you can see, and properly sourced everything using many quotation marks, but missed that one sentence. It was a mistake of course, I wouldn't be stupid to even take the risk of doing it on purpose. If anyone here would like to discuss the subject, please go to Talk:Abby Martin#The deleted section. Yambaram (talk) 18:11, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

What you consider "properly sourced", I consider rumor, innuendo, gossip, out of context quoting, and outright attack pieces by her enemies. Martin has criticized 10,000 things, with Israel amounting to only 1 of 10,000 of those things. It seems like you have taken exception to this criticism and have tried to inject undue weight into the article. By way of illustrating how to properly do this, please look at the article Paul Conrad that I wrote, and which is now up for GAN. As an editorial cartoonist, Conrad criticized thousands of topics over a career lasting 50 years. Along the way, he upset just about everyone, including the Jewish community, when he drew cartoons about the IP conflict. After examining all of the sources on this topic in depth, you can see how I handled it by giving it one sentence in Conrad's biography. After reviewing the literature on the subject, the best I could come up with was, "...members of the Jewish community of Los Angeles took issue with Conrad's portrayal of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict." It took me days, possibly even a week to come up with that, because when you put the evidence in perspective, it was almost meaningless. Someone didn't like one of his cartoons and accused him of being anti-Israel/anti-Semitic simply because he showed sympathy and compassion for the Palestinians and portrayed Israel as the aggressor. Whether it is true or not, it's his opinion as an editorial cartoonist. It's not Misplaced Pages's role to facilitate an attack on him for doing his job simply because a few people expressed outrage over his opinion. The proper application of due weight when given his fifty year career offending every special interest group on the planet was 18 words, no more, no less. One can even argue that it wasn't important enough to mention, but the reason I decided it was important is because that particular dispute played a significant role in determining the location of one of his famous public sculptures. If that dispute had not happened, it would have been located in a completely different city, so it had an impact on his work. In the same way, given Martin's career, and her role as an investigative reporter who critiques power and influence, and is vocally anti-war and pro-peace, you should give your criticism the same amount of due weight using the best sources you can find. Finally, I would like to point out that Abby Martin was mercilessly attacked on her YouTube channel several weeks ago because she ran a segment that portrayed Israel in a positive light. In the last month, several Misplaced Pages editors have attacked her in turn for similar things. So, she isn't just being attacked by one side, or for what she actually says, she's being attacked by people on all sides with competing agendas. Viriditas (talk) 02:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

You can consider this information however you like, I have no problem with that, but it won't change the fact that an The Algemeiner article is worth a mention. Your claim that Martin "criticized 10,000 things, with Israel amounting to only 1 of 10,000", besides being factually wrong, is irrelevant - I added criticism ABOUT Marin, not criticism MADE BY her. I've Google-searched criticism about Martin's life from as many sources as possible and took the reliable and notable ones, of which a few happened to be related to her claims about Israel. There's nothing wrong with it. On the nice article you wrote, Paul Conrad, there's a section titled "controversies" (as opposed to "criticism" on Martin's article), so if you want Martin's criticism section to be titled "controversies" then that's fine. You must understand that such a section is not intended to provide an overall coverage about Matin's outside perception, its PURPOSE it to provide criticism/controversies (possibly followed by Matin's replies to those allegations, which I did by citing HER Twitter response to some allegations.) You're talking about how you trimmed down information on Conrad's controversies, saying "when you put the evidence in perspective, it was almost meaningless." That statement is WP:OR - because if a NYT article for example mentions criticism about an Israeli policy, neither you nor I are eligible to decide if that criticism is based on "real evidence" or not - if it's a NYT article then it's not undue weight and I'll have to cope with it. You should also acknowledge that if Conrad was accused of being anti-Israel/anti-Semitic by in an article by some notable news agency/source, then that journalist's opinion in most cases is probably entitled to be mentioned on Conrad's article. Just like a praise or admiration of him should be given the proper mention. You're basically saying that no matter if any criticism is true or not and regardless of who says it, it shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages, or as you wrote it: "Whether it is true or not, it's his opinion as an editorial cartoonist. It's not Misplaced Pages's role to facilitate an attack on him for doing his job simply because a few people expressed outrage over his opinion." NO - these "attacks" should be given the proper weight, and if what you said was the case, then Misplaced Pages would've probably been empty of criticism, except for extreme cases: You said that considering Conrad's lifelong experience, no more than 18 words of criticism should be allowed. This claim is according to you, and is obviously not policy-based. If you're able to acknowledge that "One can even argue that it wasn't important enough to mention", then you must not disagree that one can argue the opposite. Also, criticism does not have to have a direct impact on one's work in order to be mentioned. Misplaced Pages is not censored, and we aren't the ones to judge whether criticism (or praise) about Martin's is JUSTIFIED OR NOT, we need to follow what the guidelines (WP:BLP as you said) tell us. She can be pro-whatever she wants and as good hearted as she would like to be, but again that doesn't matter much on Misplaced Pages. You're saying that Martin was also attacked by the "other side", great, I encourage you to find a reliable source that discusses it and add it to the proper section in the article, at your best discretion of course. I corrected minor stuff on the criticism section I expanded yesterday. To sum it up, our disagreement comes down to which amount of due weight we should give to the sources that criticize her, so let's continue discussing it on Martin's talk page. Yambaram (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I think this discussion needs to remain open on this noticeboard based on your above response. Almost every point you've made is demonstrably incorrect. We simply don't write biography articles in the way that you propose. You did not seem to fully comprehend the example of Paul Conrad I presented by way of analogy, which is partly my fault since I didn't have enough time to explain it. Briefly, the analogy has nothing to do with the section title of "controversies" as you wrongly observe. It has to do with the fact that multiple reliable sources unconnected to the controversies, reported on the controversies in a neutral way, without any connection to the disputes. The sources you've used on Abby Martin fail to do this and in fact do the opposite; they manufacture a controversy where none exists. By way of another example, I will attempt to explain once again. You should know, however, that your statements about the length and context of the Conrad controversy are just wrong. It has no real place in the Conrad biography, and is discussed in the context of the actual dispute in the proper sub-article, Chain Reaction (sculpture)#Proposal. Again, by way of analogy, that criticism reads:

Conrad expressed interest in building the sculpture in either Beverly Hills or Santa Monica. In 1988, he created a two foot model of the sculpture and proposed his work to the Santa Monica Art Commission. He showed off a model of the proposed sculpture to the Beverly Hills Fine Arts Committee in early 1989. The committee, appointed by the Beverly Hills City Council, deliberated Conrad's proposed sculpture for three months. During that time, Conrad was attacked as an anti-Semite by several residents of Beverly Hills because of his recent editorial cartoons depicting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict during the intifada. The Beverly Hills committee eventually turned down the proposal for the Chain Reaction sculpture on April 12, 1989, citing the lack of a suitable site in Beverly Hills that could accommodate the structure. "It is a piece of monumental proportions that needs a very large, large area," committee chairwoman Ellen Byrens told the Los Angeles Times.

Why would I include this in the main Paul Conrad biography article? In the same way, extensive criticism of Abby Martin's show, Breaking the Set, would best appear in that sub-article or in the RT parent article, provided it is reliably sourced, which I and others maintain, is not. Instead, you've chosen to devote half of Martin's article to discussing her criticism of Israel, and you've used partisan and unreliable sources to do it. That's not acceptable. In any case, contrary to your non-neutral portrayal of Abby Martin, Paul Conrad was involved in a documented and publicized dispute with the community of Beverly Hills. This dispute appeared in numerous sources that had no self-interest or connection to the people involved. They reported that members of the Jewish community objected to Conrad's proposal for placing a peace statue in their town because, according to them, Conrad's editorial cartoons criticized Israel, and they didn't want his artwork as a result. The city council eventually turned him down for other reasons, but there was public pressure from the aforementioned group. As a result, Conrad's statue was proposed in Santa Monica instead, where it was accepted and remains until this day. Ironically, the biggest defender of Conrad's statue is a Jewish activist by the name of Jerry Rubin, so the Jewish community of Beverly Hills does not speak for all Jews. In any case, the controversy was notable to include in the Conrad article not because he criticized Israel nor because he was criticized by Jewish groups. The controversy was notable to include because it directly influenced the outcome of his work and because it was neutrally reported by sources that had no connection to the controversy. In other words, it was a significant controversy with reliable sources. You do not, however, have a similar situation with Abby Martin. The sources you have offered are trying to create a controversy where none exists, in order to malign the subject of the article. Further, the sources are intimately connected to the subject of the criticism, making them not just unreliable, but lacking independence and neutrality. This attempt to manufacture controversy is a POV pushing tactical strategy intended for the sole purpose of denigrating a BLP, not for accurately representing an important or significant controversy or criticism covered by independent sources. That's the distinction. Viriditas (talk) 00:51, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

mike tranghese

please review the page for this man's biography. It should be about the former big east commissioner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:77FC:4C0:55B9:68C9:21:30D0 (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Farshad Fotouhi

Please review the page for Farshad Fotouhi. His page has been actively subject to several attempts to reflect disputed information. Some people have been bringing their disagreements with his management to Misplaced Pages, and putting every negative online post they can find about him on his page. I really don't think these kind of disputes that are still active should find their ways into Misplaced Pages pages. I honestly don't have the time to constantly argue with an editor who seems to be on a vendetta against Fotouhi. I truly appreciate if a neutral editor looks into this.

Here are some information about the claims brought up on his page: "Wayne State University is standing by Farshad Fotouhi, dean of the College of Engineering, whom faculty members have accused of lacking integrity and, last week, sparked the resignation of a longtime professor. "I really want to emphasize that Dean Fotouhi is doing a good job," Margaret Winters, provost, said Monday. "A great deal of what we see going on here is that some older, more established faculty frankly don't want to see change." Winters said Fotouhi had been hired several years ago to make key changes in the college, such as raising research productivity and boosting enrollment in engineering, and that he was meeting those goals -- to some professors' chagrin." "Winters said the university had thoroughly looked into claims against Fotouhi on two separate occasions and that the dean had come up clean." Dr wiki editor (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The it's just professors complaining argument doesn't hold any water. Donors are complaining, too. You can source that with Crain's Detroit Business. Undergrad students are complaining as well, but they don't want to go on record. Unless... you sought one out who's either recently graduated or transferred to another university. Detroit Joseph (talk) 21:09, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I did some edits to neutral the content, I saw weak opinionated reports attacking him and removed them. Looking at User talk:Detroit Joseph's contributions, https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/Detroit_Joseph&offset=&limit=500&target=Detroit+Joseph - many blanked for policy violations appear conflicted and opinionated about Fotouhi - Mosfetfaser (talk) 21:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Fine, call me opinionated. Try reading Crain's Detroit Business and the Detroit News. Also try this: name 5 donors who stopped a contribution in protest of a former dean. No, just name 3. No, just one, give me just one. What about one professor who resigned in protest of a former dean? Can you name just one? Detroit Joseph (talk) 00:09, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

You need to stop edit-warring contentious material into a BLP. The section is written tendentiously and does not present a balanced perspective of the controversy. Please discuss the issue on the article talk page. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

It is apparent to me that User:Detroit Joseph has a glaringly-obvious conflict of interest in regards to Fotouhi's biography. On the article talk page, he disclosed what is essentially a personal vendetta against the man and has made a number of wide-ranging personal attacks on the article subject.

His edits are not in keeping with policy on biographical content and are clearly designed to promote his personal feelings and push his personal POV about Fotouhi. I believe that he should voluntarily refrain from any edits to this article, and I intend to request a topic ban if that request is not heeded. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:35, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Maureen Dowd

Maureen Dowd (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I am of the opinion that there is far too much weight given to the "Plagiarism accusation" section and content in Maureen Dowd. I tried removing it several years ago but I was reverted. The article consists of approximately 913 words, of which 193 are devoted to a minor incident regarding an accusation of plagiarism. This seems excessive. Viriditas (talk) 02:37, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The accusation is a single short well-sourced paragraph at this point in time, and does not appear to remotely hit "undue". Collect (talk) 13:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. An almost 200 word accusation of wrongdoing with no outcome is completely out of proportion to the scope and tenor of a biographical article. The "incident" was neither important nor significant in her life or career. Viriditas (talk) 22:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd probably change the header from "Plagiarism accusation" to "Attribution issues". But the content looks brief, neutral, and well-sourced.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Viriditas. 20 words about her Pulitzer-winning work, 200 about not properly crediting a paragraph on a minor column is grossly disproportionate. Especially when her supposed "victim" took this position: "I generally think we're too quick to pull the trigger with charges of plagiarism. I haven't said anything about this because I really didn't think I had anything to add. Whatever the mechanics of how it happened, I never thought it was intentional. Dowd and the Times quickly corrected it, which I appreciated. And for me, that's pretty much the end of it." This probably would have a place in a much lengthier, more detailed evaluation of her writing, but it quite clearly should not be the only, or even a prominent example of, substantive commentary on her work (as opposed to her style). This is a textbook example of undue weight. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I was on the fence about this one as well, but your point is compelling. I am normally quite willing to see documented plagiarism covered, but in this instance the current treatment seems all out of proportion in a balanced consideration of her life & work. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

If plagiarism had been actually established, that's one thing. But here no one has disproved her explanation, which was a mere failure to attribute. So I remain strongly in favor of changing the heading. However, the BLP is short, and the best thing would be to expand other parts of it instead of eliminating this part....UPDATE: I went ahead and removed the header. It strikes me that there's not one word about her days as a reporter that mentions any particular article that she wrote, or any particular story she broke. I'll look around for that.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The Public Editor wrote about it -- meaning that it was certainly notable at the newspaper itself, and the material was emened to give credit which had not been initially given. appears to mmeet WP:RS and refers to the incident as "plagiarism" (Changing Journalism Peter Lee-Wright, Angela Phillips, Tamara Witschge; Routledge, Jul 14, 2011; 192 pages). ( THE FUTURE OF JOURNALISM - FRANKLIN Bob Franklin; Routledge, Sep 13, 2013; 360 pages) also clearly meets WP:RS Where the material has been mentioned in scholarly books on the topic, it does not make sense for us to totally ignore the topic, although the weight should only be a couple of sentences to cover it in a NPOV manner. I assume Routledge is considered a sufficiently reliable publisher of scholarly books, and the fact is the books state the plagiarism as fact. Redacting something which is covered by major scholarly works would seem a tad odd indeed. Collect (talk) 23:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

She was a reporter for 21 years before becoming a columnist, but not one of her articles or scoops is described in the Misplaced Pages article. I think the story she was most famous for was breaking the news about Joe Biden lifting passages from Neil Kinnock. Doubtless she had other notable stories as well. If those would be included then any undue weight problems would go away.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:55, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Tell Routledge that you feel they are not a reliable source publisher then. It appears to many that it is one, and that where multiple reliable sources refer to the event as "plagiarism" that it would ill suit NPOV to remove all mention of it. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:33, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm arguing to keep the material, not remove it, except that the heading was simplistic so I removed it. Editors who think there's an undue weight problem ought to focus on adding material about her journalistic scoops instead of trying to remove well-sourced material.Anythingyouwant (talk) 00:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Collect, I disagree with your assertions about the notability of this claim, and you cited one source twice, failing to recognize that it was the same content published in two different books. Please pay closer attention.

To clarify, the one singular source you've cited in support of your claim mentions the Dowd incident not because it is notable—in point of fact, the source says the incident was "of no particular importance" and "of minimal significance". The source mentions the incident in order to illustrate the difference between the British and American media's handling of attribution and plagiarism issues. The source does not support the claim that the incident is historically important, and in fact, contradicts it outright.

According to Collect's source, the Dowd example is shown to be highly unusual, because in British newspapers this is an everyday occurrence and common practice. The discussion itself has a larger context, that of transparency in the media, particularly in terms of how the old media reacts to the transition into the new media. When we look at the source Collect offers, the conclusion must be clear: reliable academic sources tell us that the Dowd incident was 1) unimportant and 2) insignificant, and 3) attribution of sources is an academic practice that has not necessarily carried over to regional types of journalism, such as the kind practiced in the UK. Finally, the source tells us that 4) this discussion has less to do with Dowd and more to do with regional differences in journalistic practices and transparency.

With all in this mind, when we look at the WP:BLP policy, we are forced to conclude that due to the verifiable unimportance and insignificance of this so-called "incident", it does not even need to be mentioned, and if it is, it needs to be mentioned only briefly in proportion to the overall scope of her biography. I recommend removing it in its entirety and moving it to its more appropriate topic, such as media transparency, per the sources Collect cites up above. Verifiability is not a litmus test for notability, nor does it guarantee inclusion. Viriditas (talk) 03:56, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I've inserted the following two footnotes:

• Philips, Angela. “Transparency and the Ethics of the New Journalism” in Changing Journalism, p. 145 (Peter Lee-Wright, et al., eds., Routledge, 2011).
• Cashill, Jack. Deconstructing Obama: The Life, Loves, and Letters of America's First Postmodern President, p. 89 (Simon and Schuster, 2011).

Together with the footnotes already in that part of the BLP, I think they establish substantial notability.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:05, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm curious, how do you come to the conclusion that this incident is notable when an academic journalism source says quite clearly and explicitly that the incident in question is unimportant and insignificant? Enlighten me, please. Viriditas (talk) 04:30, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

How to fix biographies of living persons issues

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Template:Https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Richard Haworth Ltd&action=edit

Since that seems to be about a concern that closed in the 1950s, and was founded by a person who died in the 19th century, I can't see any BLP issues. --GRuban (talk) 17:21, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Jeffrey Docking

Hi, I have been attempting to update Dr. Jeffrey Docking's wikipedia page several times. I am told that it will continue to be reverted, however I am pulling the content directly from his bio page at adrian.edu. Can you assist? Again, this is citing Jeffrey Docking

The current content is inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcomptonac (talk • contribs) 17:09, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

If you're taking material directly from the Adrian website, then it's WP:COPYVIO. It also appears you are removing information, not just updating it. If there's a specific inaccuracy in the current version, please tell us what it is here, or on the article talk page. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

LaMarr Woodley

• LaMarr Woodley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

LaMarr Woodley is incorrectly reported to be a defensive end for the Oakland Raiders. He is an Outside Linebacker. See Oakland Raiders Player Roster: http://www.raiders.com/team/roster.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.144.136.213 (talk • contribs)

Corrected the infobox. §FreeRangeFrog 18:58, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Otis D. Wright II

Can someone look at this - I don't have time. Might be valid but not well described and unsourced, or invalid.

There's a "notable cases" section just titled "Defendants", that's just a list of 3 names or aliases, and allegations of findings - no indication if this is a poor but legitimate description of some unnamed notable case, or not valid. FT2  22:34, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

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