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Revision as of 23:43, 12 April 2014

Error reportsPlease do not post error reports for Template:In the news here. Instead, post them to WP:ERRORS. Thank you.

SuggestionsPlease do not suggest items for, or complain about items on Template:In the news here. Instead, post them to WP:ITNC. Thank you.

This talk page is for general discussions on In the news. Please note: The purpose of this page is to discuss improvements to the In the news process. It is not a place to ask general questions, report errors, or to submit news items for inclusion. Found an error in a current item? Report it on Misplaced Pages:Main Page/Errors (WP:ERRORS) Nominating a new item to be posted? Go to Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates (WP:ITN/C). Nominating a current item for removal? Go to Misplaced Pages:In the news/Candidates (WP:ITN/C). Updating the template yourself? Only administrators can do this. For instructions on updating the template, see Misplaced Pages:In the news/Admin instructions (WP:ITN/A) Recurring items? For items which occur more than once, such as awards or sporting competitions, see Misplaced Pages:In the news/Recurring items (WP:ITNR)

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How about putting a link on the Main Page?

Alot of these problems (no one updates, not enough !votes, not enough nominations, too few topics) are caused by too few people. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Great idea! HiLo48 (talk) 15:47, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, as DYK has "Nominate an article" for example. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:51, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea to me which might get us some more users. 331dot (talk) 15:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe no one has thought of this before. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:27, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Good idea. Mohamed CJ (talk) 17:31, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I support the idea too, at least on a trial basis. I should point at that this has been discussed before, but I was never convinced by the rationales cited in opposition. Hot Stop talk-contribs 19:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree with this too. I recall that, when I first started noticing interesting stuff on ITN and wondered how it worked, I couldn't find the candidates page at first (not really being very familiar with the behind-the-scenes side of Misplaced Pages at that time). Neljack (talk) 07:34, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I fully agree with this proposal. I also second the suggestion from The Rambling Man above, and see no real reason why the "Nominate an article" text couldn't be used as a call to action, placed to the right of the link to the current events portal. Pedro :  Chat  15:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

As I commented when this was proposed previously, DYK's outward appearance doesn't tend to trigger assumptions about the underlying selection criteria, so users have no choice but to familiarize themselves with the process before taking part. Conversely, ITN is commonly mistaken for a simple news ticker. So if we send the main page's visitors directly to ITN/C, we can expect the page to be flooded with inappropriate nominations by editors whose resultant disappointment discourages further participation in the project.

I would support the addition of a link to a newcomer-friendly introduction page (focusing on both the nomination process and the article creation/improvements on which it relies). —David Levy 14:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

DYK has its introduction on its nominations page, much like we have some information on our page; perhaps instead of a separate page we could better define what we want on ITNC. 331dot (talk) 15:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course we can start with More current events – Nominate If a bold and more obvious word like More current events – Nominations or even More current events – Suggest a headline would increase awareness of where they nominate too much then we can't make them unknow it. (Maybe we'd even get troll/real ultranationalist/racist noms/comments) If it looks like one of those purge your cache things then people who overlook things and the less interested/curious will be less likely to enter. Also, I think seeing a big, inviting Nominations/Suggest a headline makes ITN look like it was put together and voted by a bunch of random people on the Internet, even though the process is higher quality than that. The way it is now makes it look authoritative. If you overlook the fact that the "news" is sometimes really old and systemically biased) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

• Excellent suggestion. I also like the idea of a Main page link to an ITN page that is newcomer-friendly, and that makes it easy for first-time editors to participate at whatever level they would like. It would be helpful to explain both the process (from nomination, !voting, article improvement, "ready" and posting stages) and the established etiquette here. Jusdafax 18:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the way to improve participation is to not berate people who read and comment on articles, to not call them stupid, to not accuse them of making up rules or pushing an agenda, not calling them "jeering spectators", not suggesting that they didn't read the article if they disagree with it's notability, to not suggest that they're not helping to improve the project, to not put up walls of text and to not wikistalk them around the project. Just a suggestion... --76.110.201.132 (talk) 23:34, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello IP98, thanks for popping in and making another fine contribution. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:36, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello to you too, TRM. Thanks for again providing sincere, constructive feedback on my well-intentioned comment. --76.110.201.132 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 13:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Next steps

So it seems there is a consensus to add such a link. How does everyone wish to proceed? Hot Stop talk-contribs 00:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

• I think just starting off by adding "Suggest a headline" would be a good start. If it all goes to rats, we simply remove the link. Perhaps a trial period of a couple of weeks during which we keep track of visits to ITN/C, nomination numbers, etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:59, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Go for it. I don't buy into the fear that the page to be flooded with inappropriate nominations (and if it does we can pull the link as you say), and it would take a couple of years to come to a consensus on a newcomer's landing page. Stephen 09:49, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
    • Sounds like a good plan to me. 331dot (talk) 10:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
      • I've performed some intensive data analysis for the last month, and ITN/C gets an average of almost exactly 700 pageviews a day, and an average of ~2.5 nominations (minimum 0, maximum 5). Stephen 02:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Stephen/ITN data

• Why would it be difficult to write up a newcomer-friendly explanation of ITN's nature (either on a separate page or at the top of WP:ITN/C)? How could this be anything other than helpful?
  Pulling the link after the problem occurs won't under the damage done when well-meaning editors (whose nominations are rejected) are driven away from the project in frustration. —David Levy 18:38, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• The wording "Suggest a headline" would reinforce the misconception that ITN is a news ticker. "Nominate an article" (the wording used at DYK) is vastly preferable. And as discussed above, it would be even better if we could point users to a basic description of ITN and its underlying process. —David Levy 18:38, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

What problem(s) do we seek to address?

Is there any evidence that we commonly fail to include events at ITN simply because they haven't been nominated at WP:ITN/C? Isn't the problem usually that no one has written or substantially updated a relevant article? If so, how would it be helpful to send users directly to the nomination page (without at least appending an explanation of the encyclopedic editing required)? —David Levy 18:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I think, anecdotally, that we have a high bar for ITN inclusion, far higher than DYK, TFP, and OTD. There are the odd exceptions, those which may be of massive popular interest. But I guess this suggestion to increase visitors/nominations at ITN/C partly stems from times when our ITN section isn't updated for, say, three days. It could hardly be called "In The News" when it's not News, it's Olds. While we're not Wikinews (and thank goodness for that), we seem have to inherited an obligation from somewhere to actively promote "in the news" articles. We go through periods where we don't have many nominations. In answer to your original question, no, there's no evidence we "commonly fail to include events at ITN simply because they haven't been nominated at WP:ITN/C" but there is evidence that supports the idea that this section of the main page goes stale more frequently than any of the others. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this section goes stale more frequently than any of the others. I just don't see how simply inviting nominations from the main page's visitors would solve that problem. Unless we're overlooking newly written/updated articles that haven't been nominated, what would this accomplish (apart from encouraging inappropriate requests from well-meaning newcomers, as discussed above)?

If we want greater turnover (and I agree that we do), we need to loosen the inclusion criteria and/or encourage more article creations/updates. I think that we should do both. —David Levy 19:47, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to corroborate both issues I've noted. Limited turnaround and "high bar". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

It might be helpful that while experienced editors should be expected to use the ITN template, that we should encourage newer editors that if they think they have a good article for ITN/C, that anything that 1) links the article, 2) links verified source, and 3) any blurb information would be quick and easy to add, and experienced editors can morph that to a "proper" nomination. --MASEM (t) 19:29, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

If we aren't commonly overlooking articles that meet ITN's requirements, how would this be beneficial? What do you mean by "any blurb information would be quick and easy to add"? —David Levy 19:47, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't solve all the problems, but one of the things I know looking at the ITN/C instructions is that they are not simple at all. That will discourage editors from contributing even appropriate topics. There is of course the other issues , but ease of submitting should not be ignored. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the process could (and probably should) be simplified. I also agree when users post otherwise-valid nominations with improper formatting, other editors should attempt to repair them. (I've done so, in fact.)

I don't understand how this relates to the idea of linking to WP:ITN/C from the main page. Again, unless we're currently overlooking articles that meet ITN's requirements (in other words, only the nominations are missing), what would this accomplish? —David Levy 20:09, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

If we are going to link a process page from the main page, to invite people to participate, the steps to participate should be minimal as possible. A causal WP user that's never touched talk pages would balk at this page currently and likely decide not to suggest a story. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood. Were explaining why you believe it would be helpful to link from the main page directly to WP:ITN/C, or did you mean something different? —David Levy 20:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

As I read the above, the core issue is that we may be missing ITN stories, in part, due to the lack of visibility of how any editor can nominate ITN stories, and that adding the link from the main page to ITN/C would be a step in helping there. That I agree with, but I do point out that if we are taking this step, the basic ITN/C process should be simplified to be easy to readers to contribute, lest we scare them away. --MASEM (t) 20:23, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

As I read the above, the core issue is that we may be missing ITN stories, in part, due to the lack of visibility of how any editor can nominate ITN stories, and that adding the link from the main page to ITN/C would be a step in helping there.

To my knowledge, there's no evidence that we're commonly missing ITN stories because they haven't been nominated. When ITN-suitable events are omitted, the actual problem is that no one has created or substantially updated the relevant articles. So simply encouraging more nominations wouldn't help (and could actually hurt, for the reason discussed above). We need to encourage users to create/update the articles.

That's why I suggested that we link to a newcomer-friendly ITN introduction (i.e. one far simpler than that which exists currently). Instead of sending readers straight to the nomination phase, we should place them on the path to improving the encyclopedia in a manner that enables valid nominations.

That I agree with, but I do point out that if we are taking this step, the basic ITN/C process should be simplified to be easy to readers to contribute, lest we scare them away.

I agree that this is a good idea, irrespective of whether a link is added to the main page. —David Levy 20:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

We're missing stories because the process, and some who attempt to stringently and incorrectly implement it, actively discourage new editors. Some folks, like ThaddeusB and 331dot are frequently seen encouraging editors new to the process to take heart, to revisit etc, but sadly we have other editors who simply propose false premises to editors, claiming certain conditions should be met when it's simply untrue and unhelpful. The "update recommendations" and those who attempt to enforce them falsely, are an issue. Perhaps we don't need a revision of how we attract people to ITN, but we certainly need to address the way in which the ITN criteria are described and (mis)applied. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:42, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree (though I think that the greater problem relates to unreasonable demands regarding events' "importance"/"significance"). It seems as though people are constantly seeking ways to make the inclusion criteria more restrictive. Whenever I see a discussion about "too many blurbs about x", I wonder how anyone can look at ITN and think that it's being updated too often. —David Levy 20:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. For all the traditionalists, if paper encyclopedias could change like the Harry Potter newspapers then nobody would HAVE THE NEWEST EVENT BE 6 DAYS OLD on the "What's New in knowledge" section. Or 5 in 12 days. Paper encyclopedias wished they could do that, instead of publishing a yearbook, (just like they wished they had space and the staff to include all notable things, instead of just 30 books' worth). People need to do what paper would do if they weren't limited, not what paper did. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:22, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Quite so, there's a body of editors who believe that strict adherence to fake requirements should trump common sense and restrict ITN items, while simultaneously complaining about a lack of interest. An odd dichotomy which really doesn't help the project, the editors and most importantly, the readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:22, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the general sentiment above. By far, the biggest problem we have is the high bar on notability. Our update requirements are not very stringent, and I feel very strongly we should not compromise them. Linking to stories that have 1-2 sentences that say no more than the blurb does is of minimal help to the reader. Linking to poorly referenced articles or articles with other serious problems is worse than stale blurbs.

Yes, the update requirements are good. What's bad is not posting the American college football and basketball championships because it's "not the highest level of the sport" and therefore not notable enough and not having the U.S. budget sequester because it "mainly affects only one country". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:35, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

That said, while it is true some stories don't make it because they aren't updated, the far more common occurrence is for items to be simply voted down on (IMO) veiled "I don't like it" arguments. (I personally try to update almost anything that has support, if I can manage to find the time.)

I don't really have an answer to this, but I do think part of the problem is that we are a small, mostly closed community. Fresh blood would be helpful, perhaps, but not in the form of nominations which are just going to be voted down by the regulars. What we might want is new people expressing opinions on stories, but a doubt a "nominate" link on the MP would accomplish that. And yes, it could discourage people when "their" story just gets a bunch of opposes or no clear reason (i.e. with no user friendly explanation of what to expect.) I'll I can say is that the regulars should take a serious look at themselves and consider loosening their own personal standards. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

More eyeballs (editors, admins, and non-editors) should be on the page, and know about it so they know what needs updating, !voting, article creation or orange tag removing and that one of them might be interested enough in the subject matter to do it. There are too few admins here which is why there are post requests below this.

The current instructions are too demanding. Perhaps putting the instructions in order from most to least important with the suggestion that it would be helpful to read it all but better to just go as far as you can if you'd otherwise leave. But there should be no demands that you MUST have an article, MUST have X new sentences etc. Who gives a c--- if someone just name dropped something and left. That is still helpful. Is it that much to ask for someone to put what they wrote in a box. Look for sources and so on. There should be enough people here that someone is interested enough in the nom's subject to do things like this, even create the article. There should be a rule against complaining that X didn't follow bureaucracy. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:50, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I do also agree that we could use more admins willing to post things that are more than a day old (provided they actually look at the articles and judge quality of update, which is rarely commented on). --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

One issue is that the few admins that frequent ITN/C often give an opinion, and then feel obliged to pass up the opportunity to close the nomination and post it, in case there's the usual screeching about conflicts of interest. I'm sure if the hysteria of some of the masses was quelled somewhat, we could happily post more frequently. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Just throwing a thought out here as it's related. There are a fairly large amount of nominations that fail not because they aren't notable enough, but because the quality of the article is a problem. This especially seems to be true with stories from non-English speaking regions although right now I can't back that up with concrete evidence. The relatively small pool of ITN regulars shouldn't be forced to update these articles to bring them up to the required standard so I'm wondering if there's a way we can highlight ITN-notable articles that need improvement urgently? If that could be visible wide enough across wikipedia then it may attract the correct editor to the article to make the updates. Case in point currently in review ] where the linked articles are, perhaps, not of sufficient quality yet. CaptRik (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

That is a fair statement, but not one with an easy solution. I personally do what I can, but I only have so much time/interest/skill. I don't believe a "nominate an article" blurb would help any in terms of quality. A year or so ago, we experimented with a call to improve specific articles on the home page and it generated little fresh effort (a few Misplaced Pages regulars improved some of the articles, though). The only suggestion I have is leaving friendly notes on talk pages on nominators asking them to put some work into "their" article and offering to chip in to make sure it gets up to quality standards if they first show the intiative to try. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there some way the ITN nomination template can be modified so that someone can put in one or more wikiproject names and those project talk pages would be notified? The nominator doesn't have to fill that in if they are not experienced enough to know what it is, but anyone else could update the template with this notification. CaptRik (talk) 19:55, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

A bot would have to do the actual notifying, but its not a bad idea. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Could a bot also leave a message on wikiproject talkpages telling them about ITN/C giving them some way of figuring out whether something is worth nominating or not and encouraging the worthwhile ones to be nominated? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

From a technical standpoint, yes, easy to do. However, every bot task must be approved and that is something probably better done by hand. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:21, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Lag : China related tense political event

The Sunflower event have been posted on 20th, we are now on 25th with 8 supports, 2 opposes based on earlier lack of content/quality. Could someone review it soon. Yug (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Both bold-linked articles in the blurbs have maintenance tags so their quality is still inadequate. So this will not be posted until such a time that the quality has been improved, regardless of the support/oppose ratio. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

(The Rambling Man:) Wait, is it that simple to block events from reaching the ITN ? Both articles are fair, the main tags are "content can be added from Chinese" (normal), "This is a current event" (normal), with "this present point of view" (normal) since it is on virtually ALL Taiwan-autonomy related articles due to China will of annexion. If you take these as a reason to reject event the most massive event of this autonomous state in decade, then, we de facto erase Taiwan-autonomy for the ITN section and we auto-censor wikipedia. The set become a convenient neglect and quite the opposite of Misplaced Pages principles of fair treatment. Yug (talk) 18:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Last time I looked one article had a maintenance tag which stated "This section has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality." and the other had one which stated "This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page.". Neither of these are acceptable for main page inclusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Virtually ALL Taiwan-related articles are taggued with "This section has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality" or "this present point of view"ue to Chinese users not accepting the simple concept that there is a pro-independance Taiwanese movement. The Chinese Misplaced Pages got block for years due its coverage on Tian'anmen, Tibet, and Taiwanese-independance. If this is a criteria for blocking access to ITN, we are de facto auto-censoring Misplaced Pages. Yug (talk) 15:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Not really, what we're doing is asking editors who are familiar with the subject matter to ensure that the articles tagged are corrected so they are neutral in tone. However, you are free to bring this to an RFC should you geuninely believe that articles covered in maintenance tags and non-neutral language deserve a place on the front page of a global encyclopedia. Until such an RFC instructs otherwise, those articles will not be posted until they meet a minimum quality standard. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

If what Yug is saying is true, then any amount of work won't be enough for the tags to be removed... –HTD 17:00, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Not true. We can RFC an article, and protect if required from POV editors. But in any case, we do not post such articles to the main page. Plain fact. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

You're talking as if this is easy. RFCs are drawn out and by the time it's ended, the news has been stale for days. We'd lose the opportunity to post something like this, unless of course this event gets to be drawn out too.

(In a related note, I misunderstood you on what should be subject of the RFC. I thought there'd be an RFC if we'd be letting tagged articles be prominently linked in the Main Page.) –HTD 01:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

A chain of conditions and procedures that I -the guy who monitor this ITN proposal and ex-admin- learn at day +7 of the event. An RFC need time as well. How can we expect that politically conflictual but important event such this one move on ITN in time with that many gates ? Very unlikely. Yug (talk) 19:01, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Not sure I completely understand your point, but if you are convinced that no stories of such a nature will ever be featured on ITN then you need to do something about it. Be clear, it's not because ITN doesn't want to feature these stories, it's because they are littered with maintenance tags and are of inadequate quality to be featured on the main page of Misplaced Pages. As an ex-admin, I'm sure you are aware that quality is important to the main page articles. If you care about this for the future, you'll do something about it. If not, then perhaps you'll just complain about it again next time something like this crops up. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:42, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Experienced users, willing to push this article are too rare. I can't do the research needed as I have 14hrs work/day this months. You also know it is visibility that give articles chances to get improved. I raised two RFC, Taiwan & China portals will be contacted, but the time by which this will have effect you will state the date as a rejection argument. Also, yes, political tenses events are de facto kept away from the ITN, as an editorial policy. Keeping tenses event away is self-censorship. Yug (talk) 08:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't make the rules. We don't post anything, TFA, TFL, DYK, ITN with maintenance tags. If you want that to change, you'll need to do something about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:43, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Which i'am doing, but will not be delivered in time. Mainwhile, let's the world talk about Sumo. Yug (talk) 14:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

If the problems with people disrupting these articles 'really' are as bad as you say (and I don't say they are or they aren't, but we'll concede the point...) then you have FAR bigger fish to fry than getting a blurb into ITN. ITN is a small issue, and you need to work first on these other problems. Arguing over ITN is merely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, if the actual problems you note are happening, and you shouldn't be here arguing with us, you should be pursuing dispute resolution and forget about this little insignificant corner of Misplaced Pages. --Jayron32 14:55, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Sumo was featured because the article matched the quality requirements of ITN. If you want items to feature on ITN, they have to meet the criteria. If you wish to change the criteria, you need to raise an RFC to do so, or at least start a discussion here to allow articles with maintenance banners to be posted. Sorry you're disappointed by the whole thing, but them's the rules. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The Rambling Man: Little summary of what we face :

• user:61.70.50.164 is an IP which appeared in the same time that the Sunflower_Movement article
• user:61.70.50.164 edit only on this article,
• user:61.70.50.164 -who is expected to be a begginer- made skilled removals of sourced pro-protesters content while making skilled, sourced additions for pro-government/China content
• user:61.70.50.164, the precise day when Sunflower_Movement the article leaves the ITN_candidate section, he/she try to erase all his/her edits to the article, then disappears.
• user:61.70.50.164 was the main supporter (only) of the "this article is not neutral".

This is the kind of puzzling events/users we face, with too short time to raise the suitable WP counter actions such fair RFC, identity/IP/sock pupet check, and co.

The article is, now, without maintenance tags. Yug (talk) 15:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes I find this kind of events suspicious on China related issues, knowing what we know of major powers online. Yug (talk) 15:07, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

This is not an ITN issue, as Jayron32 has noted. You'd be better off discussing this in a location where you can receive more direct assistance with these pressing issues. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I'am mainly a French editor, I don't know the right pages to go on the English wikipedia. I also wish to get you back the summary to raise awareness, as the event ends and suspicions behaviors are pilling up. Yug (talk) 15:15, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution for some advice. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing is stale

We have five items actually still "in the news" for the first time in a while. Good work all. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Five of the current six items relate to Asia (and 3 to Japan alone). This bias towards Asia/Japan is unacceptable. (I kid of course, but if it was North America/USA, you know someone would say it. Just something to keep in mind the next time there happens to be a large number of notable US stories at the same time.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:53, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

ThaddeusB, Asia has the majority of the world's population, so it's hardly concerning that it has the majority of the stories on there at the moment. The US has less than 1/13th of Asia's population. And looking at the "Japanese" stories, one is actually about a Mongolian and another is about an international prize that is ITN/R, which happens to have been won by a Japanese architect this year. So the current situation is hardly comparable to systemic bias towards the US. Neljack (talk) 02:12, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

1/13th the population of Asia, but what about the English-speaking population of Asia? --Golbez (talk) 02:26, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

That would only be about twice the population of the US. HiLo48 (talk) 02:34, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The comparison was North America to Asia or United States to Japan. US to Asia is an invalid comparison. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

And if there was a story about baseball that featured a Canadian, an ITNR item that happened to go to an American, and one strictly American story there is a 100% chance someone would call that 3 stories about the US, which incidentally accounts for roughly 50% of the readership.

Of all the areas on Misplaced Pages, ITN is probably the least subject to systematic bias. Yet, for whatever reason, we get complaints every time the news happens to align so as to feature a lot of US stories at the same time. Featuring 3 US related stories at once is no more an indication of bias than featuring 3 Japan related stories at once. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

This is a global encyclopaedia. Roughly 5% of our stories should be about the US. If American editors want to avoid allegations of bias, they need to help bring non-American items up to standard. HiLo48 (talk) 07:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

No, they don't. People tend to work on articles they are both interested about and vaguely knowledgeable in. An unfortunate by-product is that articles on baseball and hurricanes form the majority of that intersection. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:20, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Precisely, so, if American editors want to avoid allegations of bias, they need to work even harder to help bring non-American items up to standard. HiLo48 (talk) 09:28, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Again, no. This is a volunteer-driven project. People should be allowed to work on precisely what they want. Continual accusations of bias don't really help anyone, it's obvious, we know it happens, but actually what needs to happen is that non-American contributors should work harder to improve non-American articles to get them promoted to main page inclusion, instead of just whinging about it. It is possible to do this, as ThaddeusB has pointed out at the start of this thread (which started as a bit of light relief from the usual gloom around here) and as of this morning, we're currently running at 100% non-US topics. Keep up the good work everyone. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:37, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Nah, That's bullshit. I have nominated many non-American items, several far more significant than the college football crap that gets posted. They died through lack of interest. Working harder is meaningless. I cannot keep discussing my own nominations if nobody else does. If Americans, including American administrators, don't show an interest, they die. Americans MUST care about non-American items. HiLo48 (talk) 09:44, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

People, regardless of where they are from, can only edit what they know, and until they get paid to research and edit here, will spend their free time on what they know, just as you do. If you want something nominated, it is up to you to make people care about it and ensure it gets posted. Working harder is only meaningless if you view it that way. If you have given up doing so, that is your choice, but it doesn't help your cause. You have beaten the systemic bias drum so hard you have broken it in my view. Stories need to be promoted, not just torn down. I await a nomination from any part of the world and I have nominated non-American stories in the past(not sure where you were for that one). 331dot (talk) 10:54, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Why should it be harder to get non-American items up at all? HiLo48 (talk) 10:59, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

How many US stories are on ITN right now, again? Seems to me it wasn't hard at all. Stories were nominated, discussed, worked on and posted. If it can happen with those, it can happen with yours, but you need to nominate them. Further, it isn't just our bias we are dealing with, but that of the media, which we cannot control. 331dot (talk) 11:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

"Nah, That's bullshit. " which part? The bit where I said 100% of our current ITN stories are non-US-based? The bit where I said we all work on things that interest us? That we know about? That this is a volunteer project? That if everyone worked harder to get non-US articles to ITN, it'd make a difference, rather than just continually focusing vitriol on US editors while whinging about bias? There are plenty of opportunities out there, just chucking your toys out periodically won't help you exploit them. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

re: "if American editors want to avoid allegations of bias, they need to work even harder to help bring non-American items up to standard." - what a rediculous standard. It is the responsibility of whoever wants a story to be promoted to do the work to bring the article up to standard. Just because I care about things local to me and work hard to improve articles about such topics does not mean I am biased. An actual example of bias would be voting down items simply because they happen to come from one region of the world.

re: "far more significant than the college football crap that gets posted" - first, what is or is not more significant is a matter of opinion. Second, we generally do not post college football (despite it being the second most popular sport in the US) so that is a terrible example.

re: "Americans MUST care about non-American items." - no one "must" do anything here; we are all volunteers. That said, I see zero evidence that Americans don't care about non-American items. Care less, perhaps, but that is only natural. If people were making arguments such as "this item is of no interest to me" that would be one thing, but they are not. Nor have I seen any evidence that the ration of support to oppose is any different for non-American items. Occasionally, the # of !votes is much higher for a high-profile American story, but to my eye the ratio is not affected. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

People need to realize that the news does not happen equally spread out across the world every day. It is silly to get caught up on the cross section of stories that one day of ITN presents. Long-term trends, absolutely, but complaining on the day-to-day "bias" is like panicking because the stock marker's performance did badly one day. --MASEM (t) 14:43, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

• Last 6 months of ITN blurbs posted about USA:

  March 25: Mudslide.

  February 3: Super Bowl Results

  January 7: Janet Yellen/Fed Chairwoman

  December 9: NSA spying stuff.

  November 19: NASA launches MAVEN probe

  October 31: Baseball World Series results

• That's literally every blurb posted about U.S. related items in the past 6 months. Saying there's a pro-U.S. bias at ITN doesn't actually make it true. --Jayron32 16:45, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

  Can we like totally ditch ITNR now so we won't have an excuse on posting four more American (+Canadian!) stuff? –HTD 16:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Sports

Why are three of the current news items sports events? 2 of which are only college level. Out of >7 billion people and +200 countries you're telling me that 2 elitist academic sporting events and a quick-fire cricket tournament are the most important things people can find to post on the main page? That's kind of pathetic, what about Crimea? Syria? Libya? Thailand? North Korea? Some of these articles have been up for days yet I never saw anything about the artillery duel between the 2 Koreas, you kidding me? 123.243.215.92 (talk) 10:00, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

To participate in the process which selects articles for ITN, please see WP:ITN/C. Many thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Exchanges of fire on the DMZ are not uncommon, and are also not unusual since the Koreas are still technically at war. 331dot (talk) 12:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree with the sentiment from 123's post. The NCAA and the world tournaments for cricket I can understand, but a rowing tournament between 2 universities, really? >_> Political and military events are downplayed way too often in the news, and not just on Misplaced Pages. 84.198.53.190 (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

We certainly aren't directly responsible for how the news treats any category of events; they cover what they think people want to hear about. The hundreds of thousands of people viewing the boat race in person and the millions watching on TV might disagree with you. 331dot (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

re "Why are three of the current news items sports events" - because three notable sporting events happened to occur in the same time frame. Normally there are 0-1 sports stories on ITN, but we aren't going to artificially stop some stories from being posted just because another of the same type is already there. (We get this exact same complaint when by chance there are 3 notable stories from one country at the same time, three science stories at the same time, three elections at the once, three natural disasters at the same time, etc.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Add Peaches Geldof to recent deaths?

Certainly seems notable enough. 84.198.53.190 (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I invite you to contribute to the discussion at WP:ITNC, the forum for discussing what gets posted to ITN. 331dot (talk) 17:18, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

In the news not being whats "in the news"

I would like to thank my illustrious and somewhat more notable peers for the excellent debate on UCL Quarter finals vs NCAA College basketball, or BB Little Leagues as I somewhat curmudgeonly called it. I dont think that debate should be continued here. Both sides obviously feel we have a case, and we did indeed have that argument. I do think its a debate that needs to be continued on some level though. Not necessarily on the specifics of these two events, but on the perspectives that constitute whats "in the news". Met with such learned and rhetorically excellent opponents, I endeavoured to get my point across in the best way possible. I am just a fool in a wikipedia context, but unfortunately for basketballers everywhere, I am a fool with a good case. Neither of these events are featured on the ITN guidelines, however one has the support of a somewhat majority consensus and the institutional support of wikipedias traditions of only including finals.

Let me be clear on my point here. If a news event is on the day being featured destroying another generically similar news event 100/21 (or whatever it was) on google trends, it might be worth considering the institutions, traditions and consensus of wikipedia.

We should not be setting the news imho, or we run the risk of becoming politicised. No one wants foxipedia. What I want, and what I believe more people would like, when clicking this is 1 an adequate reflection of world news (with due respect both to the international size of the story and of course some mind paid to its greater significance) and 2 a time portal that takes us back to those days in history and literally what was in the news on those days. I think some things such as deaths, carry a permanence and a weight that is easily identifiable as more important than the 100th story about the latest dance craze from Korea. That said, the news of the day should be reflected, and whilst I can see the benefits of including stories such as the NCAA Basketball, which I concede the American are literally "mad for" and indeed smaller, but also notable events like the Boat race - When you have UCL Quarters and Semis dominating the worlds sporting news by a serious distance, it might be worth considering reflecting this, rather than ignoring it.

Again this point isnt about the UCL. Its about the wider ramifications of big news and obviously internationally significant competition, to locally loved stories, that are more about their location than the planets attention as a whole. If you dont agree with the example I give here, then focus on the perspective. ITN is in the habits of editing out what was literally dominating the news on this day in history, and thats extremely questionable, when the rationale for exclusion are false arguments justifying parochialism and NIMBY mentality to the worlds news.

Thanks one again to my excellent and far more notable peers, and keep up the good work. Thank you. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 10:09, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Admin assessment requested

Can an admin please take a moment to assess the consensus on the cement merger item from a few days ago? With TRM withdrawing his quality based oppose, it has 2 supports, 2 weak supports, and 1 oppose. If it is assessed and comes up short of the necessary consensus to post, please leave a note saying there was insufficient consensus/opinions to post so that I at least know it was looked at. Thank you, ThaddeusB (talk) 14:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Posted by The Rambling Man, thanks. The Windows XP item could also use an admin taking a look. Thanks, ThaddeusB (talk) 23:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Geez, I wish we could have got that sort of attention on some of the items I've nominated, that just fell off the bottom of the page. We shouldn't have to come here asking for it. HiLo48 (talk) 23:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)