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Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 25 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 23 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 92 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 72 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 62 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 53 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 46 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov#RFC_on_Infobox_for_Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov

(Initiated 36 days ago on 2 December 2024) The last comment on this was on 24 December 2024 and Legobot has removed the RFC tag. An independent closer (preferably an admin) would be welcome. Many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 27#File:The Musician (Erling Blöndal Bengtsson) by Ólöf Pálsdóttir.jpg

(Initiated 41 days ago on 27 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

•  Done Stifle (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 19 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 105 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 84 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 71 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 62 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 42 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Interaction ban request

Per this thread, I formally request an indefinite interaction ban with Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs). He is a serial violator of WP:CIV and WP:NPA with a nasty habit of dragging his "enemies'" names into disputes that have nothing to do with them. We seem to already have an informal understanding that we will not interact; I want this understanding to be formalised so that if this editor continues to snipe at me he will face sanctions. Thanks. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:23, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

"One-way" interaction bans do not happen. You do understand that you would never be able to mention him as well, and that you would face the same sanctions as he would were an IBAN enacted? Doc talk 11:43, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

One-way interaction bans do happen actually, but that's not what I'm requesting. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

They don't happen legitimately. Editor X is interchangeable with editor Y. The current example at WP:IBAN is confusing and needs to be clarified. If two editors need to be separated with an IBAN, neither should interact with the other. No one is at more fault than the other. If it's a simple harassment issue, one would simply be blocked for harassment of the other. IBANS are mutual. Doc talk 12:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

So what's this note about then? No matter, two way is fine with me, as long as it gets him out of my wiki life forever. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:39, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes: I see the change here. It never used to say that. The level of consensus at the talk page for this policy change based on the discussion is pathetic. It fell through the cracks and no one saw it. BRD. Doc talk 13:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, one-way IBAN's are possible. However, it would need to be shown clearly through diff's that this is preventing current problems. To say "X has a habit of doing something" is not helpful. We need to see recent, serious, and significant evidence to implement any type of IBAN. Note, this could also expand into a discussion of a 2-way IBAN if evidence leads that way ES&L 13:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

You want evidence that there is a problem? How about this diff from earlier today where Ihardlythinkso attacks The Bushranger and also throws in a back-handed insult of Dennis Brown. Northern Antarctica ₵ 14:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

What does that diff have to with IBANs between Ihardlythinkso and MaxBrowne???? ES&L 14:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Nothing. Rather, it demonstrates that this is more of a widespread issue and that IHTS still does not understand that this type of behavior is not acceptable. Northern Antarctica ₵ 14:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I think we all agree it's not acceptable behaviour, and that's RFC/U material. This discussion is specifically related to an interaction ban between two people. Evidence needs to be shown that the one person is requiring immediate protection from the other party. Overall behaviour, while fine as a level-set and RFC/U, do not establish immediate need ES&L 14:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Northern Antarctica ₵ 15:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

OK it was tedious to collect all these diffs but this is more than enough to demonstrate a pattern of behaviour. Every single one of these was unprovoked. These were arguments/discussions with other editors, some relatively civil, most not, but the common factor is that I had nothing to do with any of them. Nor did the other editors he mentioned. Also, past experience has shown that Ihardlythinkso will not respect an informal request from another editor to cease interaction. For this reason, an admin directive to cease interaction with me is necessary. I'm not asking anything of him that I am not prepared to do myself, i.e. refrain from interacting, linking to his diffs or mentioning him directly or indirectly anywhere on wikipedia. MaxBrowne (talk) 16:19, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support one-way IBAN there is enough evidence to support this approach. I would also endorse a 24-hour block of IHTS for his attack on the Bushranger (diff above). This would hopefully discourage IHTS from making further disruptive attacks in the future and therefore would be preventative. Northern Antarctica ₵ 17:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Panda, the OP issued a pretty serious PA directed at me in the ANI, and when questioned about it, repeated it twice and even boasted why he was qualified to make such personal insult. An admin apparently blocked me for responding to the unprovoked PA, and when questioned at my Talk why he would overlook the unprovoked PA that baited my response, he in effect repeated the PA himself by calling it not a PA but "calling a spade a spade". It is not your responsibility, Panda, that these things occurred. But please tell me how am supposed to have any respect whatever for the goings on here, where a user feels complete freedom to throw vicious PAs around, and is protected in doing so by an admin (an admin!) who supports and repeats the PA???? p.s. The thing about Dennis Brown was a little joke (i.e. humor). Dennis has been nice to me recent. Northern apparently has no sense of humor, and is motivated to scrape up anything, anything whatever that does not even concern him, in bad faith, to attack with. This is obvious persistent hostility in action, not to mention misuse of process and people's time/attention. He even opened a bogus RFAR to attack with. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

If the Dennis Brown remark was just a joke, great. I was more concerned by your unprovoked and unwarranted attack on the Bushranger, which you did not address above and which was certainly not a joke. Ironically, you were the one who was objecting to being the target of "mud-slinging". If your comments on The Bushranger aren't mud-slinging, I don't know what is. Please explain why anyone should have any respect whatever for the goings on here when you are permitted to insult editors during discussions that do not involve them. Northern Antarctica ₵ 18:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, instead of getting personal, perhaps you should looking in the mirror and ponder whether or not you're doing yourself any favors. One day, you're going to go one step too far and wind up indeffed. Your departure would a loss for Misplaced Pages, especially as far as our chess articles are concerned. Northern Antarctica ₵ 18:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I've already explained myself, Northern. And I can't make any sense out of your other comments, to even respond. (And this isn't the venue for it anyway, I don't think. And why are you involved putting your nose in other editors' difficult or broken relationships, anyway? Why don't you mind your own business?! Already many editors that are your friends have tried to coax you out of drama-mills and go write sports articles. Why are you falling back, you are no doubt disappointing them.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

My comments are not hard to understand. If you keep lashing out at others, you're going to wind up blocked. If that happens, our chess articles will suffer for it. Don't lecture me about involving myself in things that don't concern me. The issue of you attacking other users in discussions that they are not involved in is very much my business, mainly because you have done it to me before. Yes, this is the venue for discussing these things (whereas a third-party user talk page is certainly NOT the venue for your attack on The Bushranger). Northern Antarctica ₵ 18:56, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I don't owe you any explanations or even a discussion, Northern. But if I did entertain a discussion with you (and other users like you, e.g. SummerPhD) I would put the simple question to you how it is with all your professed interest in "civility" that you overlook and apparently excuse the vicious PA against me by the OP, which was repeated at least three times by him, and even attempted to justify it, as well as an admin saying it was justified. In what world do your civility principles become so blatantly hypocritical? (Please don't answer. I really do not want a discussion with you, and especially, not here. You ask me to "look in a mirror and ponder". Well, shoe's on the other foot -- big-time.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't ask questions if you don't want answers. Max Browne, as I recall, called you a 'classic narcissist'. Now, that wasn't very nice (and I never defended it, either). However, a narcissist is basically someone who is in love with himself. Considering that you almost never want to admit that you're wrong and that you fly off the handle at the slightest provocation, it's not hard to see why Max Browne said what he said. Maybe you should have given some thought as to what you do that causes someone to think of you as a narcissist (even if he shouldn't have said it).

Now, why did I overlook it? Perhaps it was because of all the nasty things I've seen you say about others, including me. In effect, you are a bully who can't handle it when other people don't play nice with him. You can dish it (and you do a lot of that), but you can't take it. Someone who dishes it out like you do can't expect a ton of sympathy from all the people they've alienated. Stop acting so superior ("I don't owe you any explanations or even a discussion...") and put your shoe back on.

Also, you just dragged SummerPhD's name into a discussion that does not involve him so you could use him as a negative comparison. What is it going to take for you to realize that you aren't supposed to do that? Northern Antarctica ₵ 19:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

You just proved how hypocritical are your concepts re "civility" -- justifying a vicious PA the way you do based on "he deserved it" or "it's true" or whatever self-serving twisted logic that makes you think you make sense or are consistent. You have zero credibility with arguments like that. If I were you I'd be very embarrassed/ashamed, but you are not. End of dialogue. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 19:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

If Max Browne's comment was a vicious PA, your comment on The Bushranger was a vicious PA. Deny it if you will, but it's the truth. At any rate, the dialogue between us does not end unless you are willing to avoid talking about me behind my back (i.e. things like what you just did with SummerPhD). If you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone. Further critical commentary on me made by you in a discussion I was not involved in will be considered harrassment. Northern Antarctica ₵ 19:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• User:Ihardlythinkso Two things I'd like from you: 1) diff's pointing to what you considered to be PA's by MaxBrowne (after all, I forced him to go digging :-) ), and 2) a damned good explanation as to your pretty nasty personal attack on Bushranger, with a perhaps good reason why you shouldn't be blocked for that right now DP 19:46, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The diffs are no problem. (I don't know why you just don't go to the ANI however, and search on "MaxBrowne" and "narcissist"?) Regarding level of nasty, I don't understand how he as admin can reinforce the PA at my Talk via his "that's no PA, that's just calling a spade a spade", and then how anything I have said tops that on your scale of nastiness. (How is it that an admin can get by with that, and that you've overlooked it even though has been brought to your attention too?) If this website wants to be so abusive as to excuse and overlook an admin from reinforcing a clear and vicious PA, and block the victim for objecting to the craziness of principle going on, ... then I don't know what to tell you Panda. I'll produce those diffs presently. (Again, they are very easy to find. Why is this so difficult, like a court of law? When clearly there are no jurisprudence or even consistency or even fundamental fairness, here. This thread was about an interaction ban request presented by the OP. I was already warned by admin The ed17 for comments re Bushranger. What is it that you would achieve by a block at this point, something preventative?) I've brought up the issue of Bushranger's reinforcement of the PA to four admins now, including you, and have gotten no reply. (Just two threats, one insult, and one nothing.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

What, you can't tell that I'm trying to give both sides the same leeway here? You know full well that the OP's actions are also fully subject to scrutiny when they file at AN/ANI. Let's try some equality here, shall we? DP 20:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand me. (I did not bring this AN, the OP brought it to request an interaction ban. I have no interest or need to interact with the OP at all, he has been levying constant attacks and insults. I have no agenda with this AN, and I have no request here, and I certainly have no interest or cause to examine or continue any dispute on any basis with the OP.) I've simply brought up the obvious regarding a PA issued repeatedly against me, by the OP and Bushranger reinforcement of same, and now even you can see Northern has reinforced in his own way. No editor should have to be the target of such PAs, otherwise PA means nothing and is a joke. The fact that an admin has reinforced the PA at my Talk, is the more disturbing to me, not only for the PA itself, but that it comes behind the force of the block bat, and is wholly inconsistent with expectations at WP:ADMINACCT. (Whereas I don't have same/similar expectations of professional conduct from a reg user like the OP.) The fact that you are an admin, Panda, and I've gotten no responses from three other admins on the matter, puts me in a position to ask what is going on? Yet, it wasn't my intention or need to morph this AN outside its original purpose, and I'm sorry if my comments lead you to think that. (I'm simply talking to you about it because you are here, on an unrelated matter. Because I have gotten no answers as mentioned.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 20:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Anyway (to be responsive what you asked for):

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:26, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

So can we clarify this here, it's only in the first where you're called a narcissist, and the rest he's explaining as per your request what he meant by it ... you can hardly consider being called a "narcissist" to be a major personal attack? On a scale of 1 to 10, it's a 0.75. "Asshole", "dickface", MF's favourite C-word ... those are right up at the top. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying the one, I'm just trying to gain perspective here based on YOUR comments which seem to have led to HIS comments, which has now led to additional comments by YOU. Am I getting this correct overall? I'm concerned that your reaction is to insult first, then come across surprised and angry when you get insulted back. As much as I say "someone else's incivility may explain yours, but it will never excuse it, the links shown by both parties so far show that you're regularly the alpha AND the omega in a situation ... and although there's occasionally a gamma and a mu, you're often both cause AND effect. If you start it and someone else responds, that's considered baiting, which ArbComm has already considered to be a significant "evil"...am I being unfair in this analysis? DP 23:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

as per your request what he meant by it. I never made any such request, nor would I. you can hardly consider being called a "narcissist" to be a major personal attack? I do. On a scale of 1 to 10, it's a 0.75. "Asshole", "dickface", MF's favourite C-word ... those are right up at the top. I disagree. YOUR comments which seem to have led to HIS comments. That PA at the ANI was unprovoked. I had no recent interactions with the OP prior, in fact considered that we had parted ways much earlier, and I wanted no contact with him, nor did I make any. your reaction is to insult first, then come across surprised and angry when you get insulted back. Again, that PA was unprovoked. And beyond that PA, going through past exchanges, you will see the exact opposite of what you have described. (I've never, ever, insulted the OP unless it was a provoked response where he initiated with incivilities or insults. ) p.s. The PA was equivalent to asserting an editor is "classic paranoid" or "classic bi-polar". Those are personal -- about a person, slamming their mental health. "Asshole" is just an expression someone is pissed at someone for something said. I think these differences are obvious and don't need my explain. Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:36, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

at least 8 times the previous week you dropped my name into conflicts that had nothing to do with me. So drop the "unprovoked" bullshit. MaxBrowne (talk) 22:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

No BS. I fail to see how your PA at the ANI was provoked. (I don't see any provoking diff from you for said PA.) Also, you should redact the PA and your reinforcing comments too. (So should User:The Bushranger redact what was equivalent to the same PA when he stated at my user Talk that your PA wasn't a PA but rather "calling a spade a spade".) There wasn't contact between us any time recent prior to the ANI. Also you've been continually insisting that reference to your username (and even no reference to your username but any link to any post by you) in any context or discussion, constitutes "personal attack". You've demonstrated more than once as already shown, how you have erupted with both unnecessary ABF personalizations, and imaginings of self-persecution, to posts I've made at article Talks re subjects I happen to care something about, when you are also involved with the subject matter. You also confessed at the ANI My patience with this editor is exhausted. which I presume was to prepare anyone reading how you might fly off the handle in anger and irrationality. What you don't understand is that I have at least equal or twice as many grievances about you and your behaviors (valid ones, not imagined ones), but the difference is, I've intentionally just avoided you and endeavored to keep posts impersonal and professional, instead of what you do in displays of obvious hatred and irrational rage, and having fun issuing vicious PA and even expounding on why you think you are "qualified" to make such PA at the ANI, and suggesting that since I objected to said PA, it means the PA "stings" and therefore "must be true". Extremely shameful behavior. (It'd be hard to come up with something more "personally derogatory about a contributor" -- go read WP:Personal attack.) But you won't see me open any noticeboard complaint about it. (The Bushranger, on the otherhand, has WP:ADMINACCT standard of behavior expectations per his role as administrator, so, that is importantly different.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"No BS. I fail to see how your PA at the ANI was provoked. (I don't see any provoking diff from you for said PA.)". Clearly you fail to see that dragging people's names into conflicts that have nothing to do with them is thoroughly objectionable behaviour. You have continued to do this even in this very discussion.
"Also, you should redact the PA and your reinforcing comments too. (So should User:The Bushranger redact what was equivalent to the same PA when he stated at my user Talk that your PA wasn't a PA but rather "calling a spade a spade".) ". Subsequent events have only reinforced my impression of your behaviour. And there you go dragging other people into the discussion again with respect to The Bushranger.
"There wasn't contact between us any time recent prior to the ANI. ". So why bring my name up 8 times in a week?
"Also you've been continually insisting that reference to your username ( and even no reference to your username but any link to any post by you) in any context or discussion, constitutes "personal attack". " Show me one single diff where I have said that. What, you can't? Then stop lying about me.
"You've demonstrated more than once as already shown, how you have erupted with both unnecessary ABF personalizations, and imaginings of self-persecution, to posts I've made at article Talks re subjects I happen to care something about, when you are also involved with the subject matter. ". I apologised and struck the comment. Something I've never seen you do, ever. That's old stuff and I don't see how it's relevant, except as a convenient stick for you to beat me with.
"You also confessed at the ANI My patience with this editor is exhausted. which I presume was to prepare anyone reading how you might fly off the handle in anger and irrationality." You "presume" incorrectly, and that is not a "confession" but a statement. My patience with you is indeed exhausted. I wish to end all interaction with you, and especially your mentions of me in contexts where I am uninvolved.
"What you don't understand is that I have at least equal or twice as many grievances about you and your behaviors (valid ones, not imagined ones)," Then open a RFCU or ANI, or shut up.
" but the difference is, I've intentionally just avoided you and endeavored to keep posts impersonal and professional," such as this one?
" instead of what you do in displays of obvious hatred and irrational rage, " I have no hatred for you, only contempt. I pay no mind to you whatsoever when I'm not on wikipedia.
"and having fun issuing vicious PA and even expounding on why you think you are "qualified" to make such PA at the ANI, and suggesting that since I objected to said PA, it means the PA "stings" and therefore "must be true". " Where did I say "must be true"? If you're going to attribute quotes to people and even put them in quotation marks, you'd better be damn sure that the quote is exact. Otherwise, you are simply lying.
"Extremely shameful behavior." I consider deliberately misrepresenting people rather shameful. I also consider dragging people's names through the mud in contexts where they are not involved shameful.
"(It'd be hard to come up with something more "personally derogatory about a contributor" -- go read WP:Personal attack.)" I can think of many things more personally derogatory. And you seem to think that the policy you just linked to doesn't apply to you.
"But you won't see me open any noticeboard complaint about it. " That's what those notice boards are for. I suspect the reason you don't open threads there is because you know your own behaviour will come under scrutiny too.
"(The Bushranger, on the otherhand, has WP:ADMINACCT standard of behavior expectations per his role as administrator, so, that is importantly different.) " Again you drag an uninvolved party into the discussion. MaxBrowne (talk) 10:14, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Your PA at the ANI was unprovoked. You didn't offer the/a provoking diff. Mentioning your username in a discussion in context does not jusfity making the PA you did. (You seem to think different. You are very wrong.) // "Bringing your name up" does not equate to personally attacking you. Show me one single diff where I have said that. What, you can't? Then stop lying about me. "Likewise about the "don't post to my attention" thing; that includes posts like this Would be good if we could just stay out of each other's way. Shut up about me and I'll shut up about you, deal? MaxBrowne (talk) 12:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)" As explained at the ANI, that thread with Drmies was not "about you". If you read NPA it says comment on content not on contributors. The dialogue with Drmies was about competing ways of responding to a sock, pros and cons. The fact that you fictionalized my post into something personal ("about you") is attempting to transform a discussion into a personal attack, and that is dishonest. // I apologised and struck the comment. Said apology was for other editors, not me. You seem to feel perfectly justified in abusing me without apology. At the ANI opened by Mann jess, and in this AN. That's old stuff and I don't see how it's relevant It's the same behavior of you justifying abusing me. So relevant. // My patience with you is indeed exhausted You should explain the significance of said "statement". (What it means re translation into posts on the Misplaced Pages -- the only thing editors do on this site.) // Then , or shut up. Again, you've imagined and accused over and over again of personal offenses where there are none. // I have no hatred for you, only contempt. I really don't care. And splitting hairs "hatred" vs. "contempt" is irrelevant for purpose of this thread, as is what you do or don't do off-wiki time. It does not justify the PA you made at the ANI, and you should redact it, as already told you. // Where did I say "must be true"? You're playing with words, that paraphrase is exactly what you were trying to convey: If "narcissist" and "diva" carry a sting for you, that suggests to me that they're somewhere in the vicinity of the truth. MaxBrowne (talk) 02:03, 3 April 2014 (UTC) // The other stuff is just your personal soapboxing/insulting opinions that I don't care to get in the mud with you by commenting on. Take care, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

p.s. Clarification (your diff shows me I confused you): When I wrote "I've intentionally just avoided you and endeavored to keep posts impersonal and professional", that was regarding posts at Talks on subject matters where you might potentially respond. (And not regarding user Quale or any other user.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 12:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's be very clear here: there will be no redaction, as there was no personal attack to be reinforced. Everybody has told you it isn't a personal attack. The fact that you have shopped your complaint to (at least) four admins and gotten "two threats, one insult, and one nothing" should indicate that the problem is not the 'personal attack' you are claiming. There comes a point where your refusal to listen to what everyone is telling you and continuing to insist they're all wrong and you're right becomes an indication that you are not capable of being part of a collegial and constructive editing environment. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You're wrong not to redact your reinforement of a vicious PA. Everybody has told you it isn't a personal attack. My, aren't we exaggerating here. ("Everybody"? Only you, Bushranger, only you. Perhaps the offending user also, one would assume.) I have to make correction, re which now you have tried to use against me, re contacting four admins and receiving "two threats, one insult, one nothing". That was a miscount. I contacted three admins, received one threat (from Panda), one insult (from you), and one no-response (from admin Resolute). So that is in no way a "reflection of community" -- both you and Panda are distinctly enemies of whatever I write, and will misinterpret anything I write if it can be used against me in manipulative fashion. Also your accuse of "canvassing" is equally absurd (I was already in a discussion w/ Resolute on something else). Your arguements are boring, and wrong, and show your abusiveness and disregard to your responsibilities and behavioral expectations per WP:ADMINACCT. (You overlooked a vicious PA to block me for a provoked rhetorical response. Biased much?!? Abusive much?!?) You should redact your "that wasn't a PA, it was calling a spade a spade" so that I do not have to take the measure (which I have been trying utmost not to do by asking for you to redact) to consume time/attention of Arbcom members. (It is not something I prefer to do. But your pretend ignorance what a PA is, and insulting obnoxious comments to reinforce, are over the line. You should reconsider your position, obviously.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 05:30, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I've already explained things w.r.t. my involvement multiple times at the ANI that sparked this whole brouhaha, so I won't bother repeating myself since it's been clearly demonstrated it won't be listened to by IHTS. I am, however, rather curious as to where the accusation of being "POV-oriented" came from, as I have no clue where it came from or how it relates to this fracas - as it is it strikes me as another case of IHTS making up something out of whole cloth about an editor he's decided he dislikes, as with the "you were busy" comments at the ANI. I, personally, don't see a need for an IBAN on my account - I've been (as has been noted) not interacting with IHTS anyway, and when it comes to his repeatedly trying to throw mud at me, that's water off a ducks' back, as well as reflecting on the mud-slinger for making unsubstantiated personal attacks (the same thing he's so quick to accuse others of, oddly). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• With respect, the majority of this thread is irrelevant to my request for an interaction ban. If the admins believe I am partially responsible for this state of affairs... fine, if you say so. I'm sorry that I don't respond well to the level of hostility and aggression displayed by IHTS; please excuse my lack of people skills. Now please impose an interaction ban on this editor so I can edit wikipedia without being under constant attack. I am willing to abide by the same conditions. Thanks. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC) Addendum: I have no interest in "argumentum ad playgroundium", i.e. "he started it", "it's his fault" etc etc. I just want this editor to leave me alone, and I don't believe he will do so unless such a directive is imposed on him. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:56, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support one-way WP:IBAN I have been trying to determine through questioning whether this is better as a 2-way WP:IBAN, or if the rare 1-way IBAN is the best approach. So, after trying to unsuccessfully pry information out of IHTS, and any information that is forthcoming is incomplete - and in many cases 90-100% incorrect. Other than information that IHTS has provided has already been refuted by the community as being violations of WP:NPA (or at least, not significant enough to warrant action), I find IHTS's continual attacks, and dragging MB's name up again and again as inappropriate, bordering on harassment. As such, I fully support a 1-way interaction ban as requested by MB, with the stern warning to MB that: a) the "narcissistic" comment was indeed close enough to be considered a violation of WP:NPA by many so please take that as a warning, and b) I highly recommend you voluntarily WP:IBAN yourself from IHTS as you have already volunteered to do. DP 19:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  trying to unsuccessfully pry information out of IHTS?? I have no idea what you mean or what you are referring to. Ditto your IHTS's continual attacks -- you're making that up -- diff these unprovoked "attacks" to support what you accuse. There are none. dragging MB's name up again and again as inappropriate Whenever I have mentioned his username it has been in context with whatever issue. (Show where it has not been, with a proving diff, rather than just making up whatever you want to accuse.) bordering on harassment. That is totally assume-bad-faith on your part, and a manglement of something serious like WP:HARASSMENT. Your idea is to set up one-way ban even though I have never issued any incivility toward MaxBrowne that was not provoked by him, and MaxBrowne is able to continue to chararacter-assassinate without provocation, and issue unprovoked PAs, as he did numerous times at

• Support mutual interaction ban. I don't think the blame can be apportioned symmetrically here, but there is enough to justify the interaction ban being mutual. As for Ihardlythinkso, he has been badgering other users and admins about MaxBrowne for a very extended period of time. This has also been directed towards me, three months ago he launched a rather vicious rant against me and he was utterly insulted every time I pointed out to him that he should not make "fuck off" comments and the like. All this is chronicled at the end of this thread. Highlights:
  • Calling MaxBrowne "Mr Bully Editor".
  • When I told him not to respond with personal attacks, he attacked me for "Your BOOMERANG thoughtless crap to justify the result you want" and told me to "stop lying and mischaracterizing me at that thread".
  • " I wouldn't lower myself to the likes of that kind of tacky shit"
  • "What a do-nothing waste of time with you in this thread!"
  • " I've put up with his shit best I can but there is a limit."
  • "he gives a flying fuck, since you essentially have OK'd him to do anything he pleases"
  • "The onus is on you to explain this shit, not me."

From reading whay IHTS is saying, you would think that he is completely blameless, that admins and MaxBrowne are forming an unholy alliance against him, and that all the personal attacks from him are completely justified or not personal attacks at all. His constant sniping at MaxBrowne has gone on for months and apparently shows no sign of abating. The behavior of MaxBrowne is less severe, but this is a WP:POINT violation, and his approach towards Ihardlythinkso has at times been undiplomatic and lacking in decorum; calling people narcissists is not helpful. It is best that he not interact with Ihardlythinkso either. This conflict has taken a heavy toll and wasted a lot of editorial resources so a sanction that puts a stop to it is long overdue. Sjakkalle (Check!) 05:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh Bullshit. (Have you even read his attempts to character assassinate at this ANI?? Ditto this thread at WT:CHESS?? The aggressive and uncivil editor is MaxBrowne. I have initiated no incivilities with him. (Ever.) I have only responded to his provocations. And fuck you for backing his vicious crap and supporting his unprovoked defaming and slanderous crap. People should take a look at your user Talk where you show clear bias to not criticize MaxBrowne's unprovoked incivilities. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 05:58, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Sjakkalle, you've made more than one accusation here: all the personal attacks from him are completely justified or not personal attacks at all. His constant sniping at MaxBrowne has gone on for months. Now back it/them up. (I have only ever said my incivilities toward MaxBrowne were provoked, and that is all. Your extending what I said to "completely justified" and "not personal attacks at all" is pure bullshit and made up by you. I never said those things. You like stuffing things I never said or thought in my mouth. Regarding constant sniping -- same deal: back it up. Present examples where I have "sniped" at user MaxBrowne. My complaints about that user at your user Talk were not "sniping at" that user, they were explanations of my dissatisfaction with your inept and do-nothing approach to that user regarding his clear and on-going incivilities. (You call his vicious PA at the already-linked ANI "undiplomatic and lacking in decorum; calling people narcissists is not helpful"??? Jesus! Who the fuck are you trying to kid with your politically correct descriptions and minimizations??) This conflict has taken a heavy toll and wasted a lot of editorial resources By MaxBrowne at ANI and AN and WT:CHESS. Not by me but by that user. I don't create complaints to consume others' attention. (Exception was your attention at your personal user Talk.) I tried to negotiate with you regarding reeling that user in, then gave up, when I saw you were biased to not do anything about that user, and were fictitiously laying blame equally. (That was bullshit. And it was why I disengaged with you for the rest of my wiki-life. But now you are here again and laying more bullshit blame. If you make a charge, back it up in context for examination. Otherwise it is pure slander. Your list of quotes is without any contexts, and clearly based merely on "bad words" in attempt to defame and discredit. The "bully" name was justified, if you like to examine it; but clearly you don't want to examine anything in context, just accuse and smear. You already have shown your civility-warrior status by blocking Eric Corbett over rough words, and were chastized for doing so by the community. So now you turn to an easier target to carry out your one-dimensional view of incivility. Your POV is rigid and narrow and transparent. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 06:45, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Surely a block is in order? This editor has not even discussed the proposed interaction ban, just ranted at and insulted anyone who dares to criticise. MaxBrowne (talk) 08:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It has already been shown how MaxBrowne imagines attacks and slights that do not exist. (He stated this dialogue was "about him". He imagined my posts to this article Talk were personal and a persecution of him. He blew up at WT:CHESS and again became ruthlessly uncivil by personalizing and mischaracterized my contributions to a subject discussion , even constructing a personal attack page intended to defame and discredit in that project Talk page thread. What do all of these incidents have in common? MaxBrowne's inability to control himself from making unfounded accusations and unprovoked attacks including his vicious PA at the recent ANI which others like to excuse or minimize. The problem editor here is MaxBrowne, not me. If mentioning another editor in a discussion, or diff-ing one of their posts in a discussion about some topic, is considered "impolite" or "not acceptable", well, quite frankly, I don't quite understand that, but perhaps I could if someone explained it to me. (Because it does not seem uncivil to me at all. Only with an intent to insult or snipe, and that has never been my intent, in spite of accusations by others who apparently understand my internal motivations better than I do because they have crystal balls.) If mentioning a user by username is such an "unacceptable behavior" as has been shouted about here in this thread, then, isn't it reasonable to ask to point out what guideline or policy says as much? Since there is so much emotion behind it? Because the accusation of bad intent is false, and User:MaxBrowne seems to erupt just at fact that a diff of his, or his username, is brought up in any context. Without a policy or guideline or demonstrable intent to irritate, his complaints are nothing more than prickly imagination and jumping up and down in tantrum. Perhaps he should be admonished to settle down and stop accusing based on his active imagination of slights, which have already been demonstrated he is wont to do. (And if you appease his childish protests and demands, it is nothing more than coddling the unreasonable, because he "protests so much".) The fact is I have been sincere that I have intended or meant no poking or jibes at MaxBrowne in any context where his username was mentioned. He is oversensitive and imagining it. And why should I be sanctioned for his over-sensitivity and sense of self-persecution that has no basis except his imagination and "contempt" for me?? The editor who needs to be reeled in is MaxBrowne, not me. The mentioning of his username in discussions in context have been called "interactions" repeatedly above. They are not "interactions" because they were not hyper-linked (or if I did, that was a mistake; but I don't think I did even once). The only way he could or would know about his username being mentioned in discussion in context therefore, is through him following my edits, looking for something to cry foul about and scream about, as he has done in this AN. MaxBrowne issued a vicious PA against me in the recent ANI, and, even though I have asked more than once for him to provide the/a provoking diff, there has been no diff. That PA was out-of-bounds, should be redacted, and was unprovoked. His reinforcement and elaboration about why he can make such a PA, and others' support of same, is a shame (and will probably result in just more drama and waste of time at Arbitration Committee). Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Admins. Please. Do. Something.MaxBrowne (talk) 08:48, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You are the one who opened this AN, MaxBrowne. I've responded to what's been written here. I have left you alone and had no interactions with you whatever. Yet you attacked me at the ANI with a vicious PA unprovoked, and also invested in out-of-context character-assassination at both the ANI and at WT:CHESS. I've stayed away from you long before these things. You are the pursuer and aggressor. (Prickly, hyper-sensitive, loudly complaining over imagined offenses.) You've admitted in this thread you have "contempt" for me. That is fine, have it. But you are responsible what you write here. As I am. I would like to continue to edit Misplaced Pages articles and contribute what I'm able in peace. You are just filled with unwarranted/undeserved attacks levied at the ANI, attempts to smear and defame at the ANI and at WT:CHESS, and attempts to sanction and block here. (Pattern?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:18, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Admins. I am at my wit's end. Please do something urgently. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I suggest that, for a couple of hours, you stop following this. I don't think posting for help repeatedly in bold letters is going to accelerate any decision, but it does seem to be resulting in more replies from the editor with whom you wish to interact no more. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Albania

A strange dispute has been ongoing in Albania page (you can see the talk page, where a number of editors, just refuse to use CIA Factbook data (based on the official Albanian census) for the ethnic data in the country. They still, keep by reverting, OLD data, from sources as back as 1991. As this is a case of edit-warring and refusal to discuss the sources themselves, by the editors, I hereby, request from administrators, to intervene, otherwise, it would be an endless anomaly. Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Apart from a widely established consensus, prior to Balkanian's intervention in the article, a dirsuptive instant reverting obsession apears to be obvious. All sides need to cool down and perform edits after a discussion takes place and I've asked for this article to be semied. Not to mention that Balkanian is also into a wide scale disruptive convassing campaign ]]]]]], calling his co-nationals for some kind of wikiwar.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, where users that always use to make anti-Albanian edits (either Greeks or Serbians) have decided, on their own mind, that census results in Albania, are not RS, because a minor organization refutes them, while those census results are overwhelmingly accepted by international organization, as well as foreign governments, like CIA Factbook. As a clear case of ethnic-based edit-waring, it is a nonsense, to try to find consensus. This is the basic problem of wikipedia, and if administrators that have no connection to this issue, do not take part, it would be just a nonsense discussion. I am reverting the results. If anyone bothers to take part or to ban me, is welcomed.Balkanian`s word (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Askahrc topic ban violation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Askahrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is topic-banned from Rupert Sheldrake (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). In a very blatant attempt to end-run round that, he has opened an arbitration case naming individuals with whom he was in dispute there months ago. This is, pretty obviously, vexatious.

He has also taken to using an alias, "The Cap'n", and notified himnself on his own talk using the alias. WTF?

Vzaak's statement is compelling reading. This user is obsessed with the Sheldrake article, and will not drop the stick. Guy (Help!) 21:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@JzG: Can you give me a link to the TBAN please, I can't find it on WP:EDR or WP:ARBPSEUDO. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:24, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair question, it was Barney the barney barney who said he was TBANned, and his lack of present input supports that, but I am having trouble tracking it down myself now you ask. Guy (Help!) 23:34, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot of factual corrections here, please bear with me. First off, I'd ask Guy and barney_the_barney_barney to stop spreading the falsehood that I have a topic ban. Please research every procedural that I've been involved in. I do not have any topic bans on any subject, and I'm not trying to circumvent any admin. I've been transparent and respectful about the actions I've taken. Second, I've been signing my name as The Cap'n (talk) 23:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC) for several years now, that's nothing new, while I put a notice on my Talk for ease of record-keeping once this is over.

Finally, I'm not "obsessed" with the Sheldrake article. I haven't edited there in months, made a grand total of less than 20 edits and don't endorse MR, Fringe topics or Sheldrake. What I brought up in my AR is nothing to do with WP:FRINGE, but rather that every time I've complained about incivility or hostile editor behavior since I contributed to Sheldrake, the response (paradoxically) has been to accost me with profanity and attempts to block me.

I have no issues with Guy, we've only interacted a few times, but please don't accuse me of transgressions I have not committed; that's exactly what this AR is about in the first place. I've tried talk pages, noticeboards, avoiding any Fringe article and finally AE's to get these editors to stop harassing me, but it hasn't worked. I'd find it the height of irony to block me for filing an AR stating that I've been inappropriately threatened with blocking. The Cap'n (talk) 23:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• I suggest that since there isn't a TBAN (the only sanctions I found were the ones I placed after the SPI, see WP:ARBPSEUDO) this discussion would be best placed at WP:A/R/C within the case request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. A TBAN is amply justified, IMO. Guy (Help!) 09:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Why would a topic ban be justified when the editor hasn't edited the article in months and "made a grand total of less than 20 edits"? Seems like overkill to me and primarily meant to stop Askahrc from filing AR requests regarding user conduct surrounding this article. If there are problems with civility (and I believe there are), the editor bringing attention to it shouldn't be penalized. And, yes, I'll go check out WP:A/R/C. Liz 13:16, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Look at the history on their talk page. Long, rambling conspiracist fictions featuring named editors and referencing the Sheldrake article/. Guy (Help!) 22:05, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Heartbleed bug

Has there been any guidance from the Foundation on passwords (both for editors with special privileges and those without)? See this CNN article. I saw this comment at WP:VPT but with no link: "Perhaps an explanation is found on Commons: Wikimedia Foundation servers have been updated since a vulnerability was discovered in the OpenSSL software. As a precaution, all Commons users were forced to log in again using new, secure version of the software. While there is no evidence of any breach of servers or loss of user data, the Wikimedia Foundation recommends that all users change their passwords to ensure maximum safety of their accounts."--Bbb23 (talk) 01:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Simple, don't change your passwords until you're absolutely certain the server you're on has uploaded the OpenSSL patch to close the Heartbleed security hole. TeleComNasSprVen (talk • contribs) 01:35, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• I was wondering if they were going to offer guidance. I changed my password this morning, expect to change again tomorrow. Anyone with advanced bit should change their password, if not everyone, simply because we really have no idea if anything was compromised or not. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Standard sysadmin statement: you don't use the same password on multiple websites, do you people? KeePass is your friend... Guy (Help!) 19:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there is a VPT thread,here the servers are patched and certificates have been replaced, all users are advised to change their passwords as a precautionary measure, but there's no confirmation of any actual breach. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 04:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Another bot malfunctioning

Well about a month ago, a same issue occurred . Been looking at filter logs and spotted Special:Contributions/10.68.16.31. ///EuroCarGT 02:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Blocked the IP for a short while so we can get this worked out. ---Jayron32 03:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Another: Special:Contributions/10.68.16.39. Johnuniq (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Well 10. addresses will be operating in the internal WMF network, so it will not be a good idea to block, collateral damage is likely. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• ^This. DO NOT BLOCK INTERNAL IP ADDRESSES. You will cause random collateral damage via XFF blocking. Legoktm (talk) 23:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Better to figure out which bots are involved, even if it involves asking a checkuser to help. I've blocked both the bots, and will now unblock the IPs. Risker (talk) 23:01, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Please don't block a bot when its only malfunction is logged-out editing — this only prevents logged-in editing, after all, and won't affect anything that the bot's doing wrongly. Nyttend (talk) 13:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• What would your recommendation be? -- KTC (talk) 09:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

How about doing the "figure out which bots are involved" part, without blocking anything until you understand what's going on? It doesn't look like there is any page corruption happening here; it's just logged-out editing. My guess is that when the WMF reset editing sessions to deal with the Heartbleed bug, that the bots didn't "notice" that they had been logged out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand why the bot's editing tokens still work when the bot is logged out. Someone should probably open a Bugzilla ticket about that, if there's not one already. Anyway I'd ask that the bot not be allowed to edit logged out. It's difficult enough to tell bot and human edits apart on any scale even when the bot is logged in. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 01:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Cindamuse is gone; please protect her user page

I'm sorry to inform Cindamuse has passed away yesterday morning, in Berlin, during the Wikimedia Conference. Please protect her page, per policy. Thanks. Ijon (talk) 09:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Salvio full protected the user page, talk page is open for condolences. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Salvio, and thanks for the response, Dennis Brown. Ijon (talk) 15:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It is bad to see any fellow editor pass on, but I really liked Cindy and she was a huge asset here. In passing, she definitely left a void. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:38, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

We also need a crat to remove the admin rights. OhanaUnited 19:16, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

'Crats hang at WP:BN. NE Ent 19:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Holy crap! That is terrible, terrible news. I am shocked to hear this. Guy (Help!) 21:57, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• In order to maintain the user page as it was at that time of her passing:
  • could a sysop update the {{User wikipedia/Former administrator}} template to {{User wikipedia/Former administrator|adjective=is a}}?
  • If someone is wiki savvy enough to set the count on the {{User Wikipedian for|... template to the time of her death, that would be good. (I'm going real life for a bit, otherwise I'd be more specific) NE Ent 22:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The "adjective=is a" doesn't help: the result is This user is a administrator on the English Misplaced Pages (verify). Having "adjective=is an" wouldn't be good, since it would make it seem that she was still an admin: we don't want the userpage suggesting that people can ask her for administrative help. I can't see anything in the {{User Wikipedian for}} documentation that would permit the counter to remain the same from day to day, instead of increasing. Nyttend (talk) 00:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The This Wikipedian is deceased. Her user page is preserved here in her memory. makes it clear she's not going to provide anyone help. "preserved" implies we leave the page in it's last form (i.e. present tense) -- she's not in the list of administrators nor the admin category, so editors seeking admin help are not going to be directed to her page. NE Ent 01:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I assume the subst: syntax can be used to capture a snapshot of the userbox? isaacl (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Bug in delete/undelete

• In this edit of Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Technical requests I found a request to move Jorhat, Assam, India to Jorhat. It proved to need history-merge, to correct a cut-and-paste followed by many edits and then a cut-and-paste back. So I history-merged it. But first I had to lose from Jorhat, Assam, India 5 redirect edits made while the text was in Jorhat, to avoid WP:Parallel histories. Jorhat, Assam, India had about 1800 edits. This involved the usual long-way-round process of deleting all edits, then undeleting all those edits except the 5 redirects, wasting my time and Misplaced Pages's server's time. And also, when I tried to undelete, up instead came the "search for text" screen, at least 3 times. To avoid that bug I had to undelete Jorhat, Assam, India in several portions, as seen in Jorhat, Assam, India's actions log (at this link). PLEASE can we avoid this long-way-round process and have a way to plainly directly delete a few edits selectively? (This is not the "hide some edits" feature.) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • @Anthony Appleyard: This is not the right place for this request. The fact that it's impossible to undelete more than a thousand revisions at once is tracked as bug 43911, and the aborted revision move feature is tracked as bug 21312. Also see this discussion on the technical village pump (which you initiated) and this Signpost story. Graham87 08:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Warning for letting the Russian point of view be heard

(The diffs I want you to look at are in bold.)

I would like to hear some feedback on what happened at

• Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation#Requested move (April 2014)
• Misplaced Pages:Move review/Log/2014 April#Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation
• User talk:Moscow Connection#Warning

I think Future Perfect at Sunrise expressed a much stronger personal opinion about the Crimean crisis here, when closing a move request.

But then again, it can be hardly in serious doubt that this very much matches the reality in this case: no independent real-world observer could deny that the action in question here was in fact unilateral, and that it did involve force. If the term "annexation" is factually accurate according to the hugely dominant view of the events as expressed in reliable sources, then the WP:NPOV policy cannot be held to prevent us from using it. We'd only be forced to avoid it in favour of a more neutral-sounding option if there was a real, significant disagreement among reliable independent observers (i.e. other than the opinions of the perpetrators themselves) as to whether or not the events here constitute an act of "annexation". I do not see anybody citing any reliable source arguing such a point

— Future Perfect at Sunrise

But after I constested his closure he warned' me for comment where I simply wanted to persuade Misplaced Pages editors to be more tolerant towards other opinions and choose a neutral title for the article.

(Reply to your previous comment) The problem that it wasn't unilateral, but the "Annexation" title makes it look so. No one took anything from anyone. People who live in Crimea didn't like what was going on in the state they happened to find themselves in 23 years ago and decided to join another. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

(Off topic.) And by the way, it may sound strange to Americans, but Ukraine and Russia are single nation. Most people have relatives in Ukraine or have Ukrainian ancestors. (And those who don't simply don't know they do.) All attempts by the Western media to make Russians and Ukrainians hate each other will fail cause we are them and they are us. Russia didn't take anything from Ukraine, it simply saved some people from the rule of some evil people. It is very sad that Misplaced Pages instead of providing a neutral view of things (and in this case it should have been kind and understanding and let the Russian point of view be heard as well as the Western point of view) is promoting hate and intolerance. I'm not talking about this particular article but you can look at any article related to the 2013/2014 Ukrainian crisis and you'll see a lot of hate. At least, let's name articles neutrally. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

— Moscow Connection

I tried to demonstrate that the title starting with "Annexation" was a Western point of view and I explained the Russian point of view and I asked people to be more tolerant to other people's opinions and let the Russian point of view be heard along with the Western point of view. I personally see a lot of pro-Maidan POV stuff in Misplaced Pages articles related to the situation in Ukraine and I find it rather disturbing how non-neutral they are.

By the way, I've seen people expressing very strong and very personal anti-Russian opinions on talk pages. I can find some examples easily. Can I list some of them here? Will they be warned just the same as I was?

I would also want to know how I should behave to not be blocked. I have honestly tried to do something about a few of the biased articles, but I think it is too dangerous to continue. I would like admins to tell me how to behave in the future. It looks like i've already been warned and the next time I try to explain the anti-Maidan POV I will be blocked.

P.S. This topic is no way an attempt to attack the admin. I simply want to know whether the warning was fair. I also want to understand whether a person who wants to make Misplaced Pages articles less anti-Russian is welcome or hated in the English Misplaced Pages.

P.P.S. And yes, I would really like to get some feedback cause I'm practically scared of what happens on Misplaced Pages lately. Misplaced Pages seems pretty happy with articles titled like "2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine". I just want to know if I am going to be blocked if I don't stop and let the anti-Russian articles be.

--Moscow Connection (talk) 17:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Our goal is not to "let the Russian point of view" be heard. It is to summarize facts, as the reliable sources have reported them. If most are calling the events an "Annexation", then the neutral thing to do is to call them the same thing here. "Neutral" doesn't mean give every person who has a different point of view a chance to air their musings on the event. If there are significant differences in how it is being reported by different sources, then those different views can be documented and cited within the articles. In other words, we don't take sides, we just document and verify facts that other reliable sources have published, period. And the names of the topics are reflective of this: they are not our opinions, they are based upon the opinions of the reliable sources only. As for Future Perfect at Sunrise, his actions in warning you seem to be proportionate to the problem. I found the closing to be extremely detailed. This isn't RFC Review, it is WP:AN, so I haven't tried to reweigh the votes myself, however, I don't see any misconduct of any kind by Fut. Perf. Indeed, I see a well though out closing that went to great lengths to offer a full explanation of the rationale, using policy and participation as a guide. I'm sure I couldn't have done it as well myself. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  But what should I do now? Should I just shup up? If someone states it was a forceful annexation — it's okay. If someone states Russians and Ukrainians are one nation — it's not okay.
  It's obvious that most English-language sources express the Western point of view. But most sources in Russian express the opposite point of view. Misplaced Pages should not be anti-Russian simply because the Western media is.
  I'm quite frustrated with what is happening in the English Misplaced Pages and in my comment I was warned for I simply tried to explain a different point of view to people. I thought that maybe people should understand there are other opinions, not only "forceful annexation", "occupation", etc. It is really strange how you can say "forceful annexation" and it will be considered a neutral POV simply because it agrees with what the Western sources say. --Moscow Connection (talk) 18:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  Well, the Misplaced Pages isn't really the proper forum for pro-Putin hegemony. As the Russian media is largely under the thumb of the government these days, they really can't be said to be much of a reliable source for anything either, so we go by what the actual reliable sources say on the matter. The North Korean leaders, when they aren't busy shooting singing troupes in the head or barbecuing former party members with flamethrowers, would likely love to get their point-of-view represented in North Korea, but it ain't gonna happen for similar reasons. Tarc (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  This is much worse than what I was warned for. (That's exactly what I meant. There are plenty of statements like this in Misplaced Pages and they are considered normal. "Pro-Putin hegemony", comparing Russia to North Korea, etc.)

• We are not here to Right Great Wrongs, so Misplaced Pages is the wrong place to try to present "the other side of the story". We don't discriminate against foreign language sources, however we do consider that Ukraine and Russian sources likely have their own bias, as they aren't completely objective. If most of the sources are saying one thing, that is what we say here. That is the role of an encyclopedia. If there is significant coverage stating that it wasn't an annexation, then that can be worked into the article, as we do want to show every significant perspective but the titling and lede are based upon the majority of coverage, using the best independent and objective sources, regardless of language. We do NOT publish "The Truth®", we only publish verifiable facts based on what others are saying. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

While my personal POV is that this was pretty much a straightforward aggressive act of territorial acquisition of the type that has thankfully become less common post-WW2, I think that the position of Moscow Connection deserves consideration. Pretty much all "reliable sources" consider this an act of aggression if we limit our search for sources to Western media. But on many issues, the POV will be very different if you examine the media in countries with which the West has historically had a rocky relationship. Are Chinese, Russian, and Arabic newspapers automatically excluded from being "reliable sources"? My guess is that "mainstream" opinion expressed in these outlets would be very different on many topics than those of Western media. I suppose one could argue that there is less media independence from the government for the media in these companies than in the West, but then folks in those countries could equally point to the ownership of most Western Media outlets by large, multi-national corporations.

I don't agree with him, but I think there is an element of truth on Moscow Connection's remarks that needs to be taken seriously. Formerly 98 (talk) 18:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Those are editorial matters, not administrative, and as I've said, we don't discriminate against foreign language sources, although obviously Ukrainian and Russian sources have to be weighed carefully as they have an interest in the outcome and perception. As to the administrative matters (what this board is here to review), I don't see any problems with Fut. Perf.'s actions, and they appear to be made in the best of faith. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm very troubled by Future's use of the word "perpetrators".--Wehwalt (talk) 19:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • When one nation violates the sovereignty of another nation, an act that is quite clearly illegal under international treaty, "perpetrator" is a rather apt descriptor. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, then you'd encourage closing admins to make such statements? That should ensure they are accepted as fair by all. I'm reminded of the saying that justice must not only be done, but must be seen to be done. We don't deal in justice here, but the principle remains. I'd like the administrator in question to clarify what he meant, please. Per WP:ADMIN. I'd also like Future to clarify if he is saying there that all sources based in Russia or Ukraine should not be considered for purposes of the closing or other U-R matters.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The point I was making was that in deciding what is or isn't a notable and significant disagreement regarding how to call a contentious and potentially offensive act, we give little or no consideration to the terminological sensitivities of the party responsible for the act itself – the "perpetrator" of the act, for lack of a more general term. That the person or party responsible for action A will disagree with calling it "X", when "X" has negative implications, can be taken for granted and is insignificant. What counts is whether independent observers have voiced disagreement over whether action A is an instance of "X". Such independent disagreement appears to be absent here. To give another Wikipedian example of such a case: Water boarding (action A) is known to be a form of torture (concept "X") – unambiguously so, without any doubt or significant disagreement about it in reliable independent sources. A couple of years ago, the government of a rather powerful nation, which was known to have perpetrated action A, insisted that action A should not be called "X", and many Wikipedians debated to what extent that ought to be reflected in our choice of language. Quite rightly, we came to the conclusion that it shouldn't. Our article on action A again calls it an instance of "X", without any hedging, because that's what reliable independent sources did. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I can see that it would be ill-advised to rely exclusively on the Russian government, by that logic. But what you seem to say is that Russia-based sources should be disregarded. That troubles me. By that logic, though perhaps I imperfectly understand what you are saying, in the water boarding debate, US-based sources should have played no part. Can you point me to where I am misunderstanding your closing?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Who said that all sources from Russia or Ukraine should not be considered for the purpose of closing? I didn't and I don't see where he did. I do know that WP:RS strongly prefers sources be independent of the event, so it might be preferable to have sources from say Moldova or Romania than Ukraine or Russia for some facts, and that we have to carefully weigh sources from involved countries, particularly if the sources are not independent from the involved governments, but I don't see anyone saying they have to be flatly excluded from consideration. Obviously they need to be qualified when used in an article, via WP:BIASED. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Dennis, I'm asking the closing admin. You are a fine administrator, but you did not close the discussion. As Roberts said to Scalia, let's hear from counsel (or admin, in this case) I will say parenthetically to Moscow and others, that a good procedure to follow might be to discuss at the start of these debates how they shall be closed, and if possible agree on an administrator, or three, to do the closing. Between the Crimea discussion you closed, Dennis, and this one, this issue is spending too much time at AN/I, and I'd like to see that end.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Did I ever say anything about wholesale discounting of published opinions based on their country of provenance? What counts is not what country an opinion comes from, but to what extent it is politically independent of the acting party, or can be seen to be evidently motivated by political expediency in defending (or attacking) action A. The USA are known for having an exceptional degree of internal pluralism in their published political discourse, and in the waterboarding case most of the public debate was done by commenters from within the country, many of whom could be assumed to be quite free from political pressures of the government in question. The same can hardly be said about published disourse in Russia today, I dare say. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, I wish I had your confidence on both those points. I can't be bothered to spend more time on this. I would urge the admins who have been closing these matters, and others who are minded to deal with these matters, to act in a way that inspires confidence in the outcome. These closes have not been controversial because of the answer, they are controversial because what was said by the closing admin, or what he did, which undermines the very solid work that I do not doubt went into each close. In other words, I can hear all the noise way up in my ivory tower. I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

 Comment:: While I admitt that you didn't said that, some are, in fact, constantly denying Russian sources on various grounds (WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and even WP:UNDUE/WP:FRINGE), that conflict applies even to Russian legislation (which is denied at all these grounds, one or another) and often leads to what I would call edit warfare. So there is a big issue/controversy about constant removal/addition of these sources, issue which has to be taken into account. Seryo93 (talk) 12:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• While I agree with this editor on some points, in that we must hold to NPOV and take into account both sides of the equation, I think that he has been conducting both tendencious and disruptive edits. Instead of trying to balance out the situation, it often appears that he attempts to inject pro-Russian material into articles which isn't appropriate. He has made repeated comments as such, such as this one. Given that Misplaced Pages is not meant to right great wrongs, as said above, I'm very concerned about the behaviour of this editor. He has even gone to the length of establishing a POV fork at 2014 East Ukraine crisis that duplicates the existing 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine, all for the purpose of skirting around other editors who have consistently resisted his attempts at pushing a certain POV. I'm not sure if he has a conflict of interest, but I recommend that he remember to strive for NPOV, and not to get personally invested in the articles he is editing. I hope that administrators involved here will make that clear. RGloucester — ☎ 16:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

PROD topic ban proposal for Nfitz

Long story short - Nfitz (talk · contribs) has a long history of removing PRODs from articles which are then subsequently deleted at AFD. Looking at their talk page, this issue was first raised back in July 2008 by Number 57 (talk · contribs). If it was the odd one or two, then fair enough - but we are talking about lots here (by my count 45 between 10 February and 22 March, and plenty more before that) which means it is becoming increasingly disruptive; just have a look at their deleted contribs. By doing so you will also note that a significant number of PRODs were removed en masse on 19 March 2014 with the edit summary of just "no" - simply not good enough. Despite attempts to resolve this situation here and here, this continues - see Glen Kamara, which was deleted by AFD today. Basically, I simply don't think they fully understand notability.

I know this is a potentially controversial one given the very nature of PRODs, however I propose that Nfitz is topic banned from removing PROD tags from articles. The constant removal of PRODs from heaps of clearly non-notable articles is disruptive and simply has to stop. GiantSnowman 18:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Has this user make any effort to address the reason why an article was prodded in the first place, e.g. find sources, trim puffery, assert notability, etc...? Tarc (talk) 18:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc:: In most cases yes. The problem here isn't a lack of understanding of the procedural mechanics of proposed deletion. It's more that they either don't understand the notability guidelines, as GiantSnowman suggests above, and more importantly seem unable to learn what they are, or simply do not care, as Number57 suggests below. In any case, Nfitz tends to repeat the same deprod rationales despite seeing them rejected at afd time and again, and in doing so creates a lot of otherwise unnecessary work for the rest of us. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I know, just trying to see if this is a straight "drive-by de-prodding" or if there is effort to rectify the articles. If effort is being put in but the nature of the effort is consistently rejected at AfD, then that may be a case of WP:COMPETENCE, yea. Being wrong isn't a crime; there's Article Rescue Squad members that are wrong...some spectacularly and nastily so...in deletion discussions all the time. It should be a rather high bar to meet for being wrong to be considered disruptive/incompetent. I'll hold off on voting until the subject weighs in. Tarc (talk) 19:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

@Tarc: Appoligies, I misunderstood your meaning of addressing the reason for PROD'ing. In the sense of substantive improvements to the articles in question, these have been relatively few. I understood the phrase to mean providing a counter-argument to the PROD rationale. I agree that bar needs to be set high, but I think that systemically ignoring or failing to understand a core policy for six years qualifies. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support - I also support a topic ban, and would like to add a bit of context to some of the numbers GiantSnowman provided. At the time of writing this, the current article alerts archive for the WikiProject Football lists 70 articles deproded by Nfitz since 1 January of this year that were subsequently deleted. By comparison, the number of deleted deprods over the same time period by all other users combined was 30. (This second number also includes any number of procedural deprods where keeping the article was not the intention of the deproder.) Simply put, since the beginning of this year, roughly two-thirds of the PROD related afd work of the WikiProject Football is directly attributable to Nfitz and most of it was unnecessary. Sir Sputnik (talk) 18:40, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support Unfortunately it seems that Nfitz is singularly incapable of using the prod/deprod system in a productive manner, and this has been going on for years. I would have no problem if the subjects of the articles he was deprodding met various notability criteria, but they clearly don't. When this was brought up in March, I pointed out that he had already deprodded almost 60 articles in 2014 alone that were subsequently deleted - creating a huge amount of pointless AfDs. I think he he knows full well what the notability criteria are, but overlooks them in favour of claiming just about every footballer ever meets the GNG (which they clearly don't). Only he alone knows why he does this, but a quick scan of his contributions over the last couple of years suggests that deprodding articles is now his major contribution to Misplaced Pages, and it's verging on SPA territory. Number 57 18:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support Not just an ignorance of deletion policy, other issues include removing a BLPPROD with a edit summary of "add ref" ... which was someone's blog; deprodding 13 articles in 10 minutes with an argument based on WP:CRYSTAL; removing a BLPPROD on the basis a completely unsourced article had an interwiki link to another language wiki; and deprodding with edit summaries of "per WP:IAR". Not to mention what appears to be deliberately "misunderstanding" FOOTYN and GNG when it suits. Black Kite (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Geez, BK...based on what you found, a topic ban AND a block for disruption appear appropriate DP 20:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

"BLPPROD with a edit summary of "add ref" ... which was someone's blog" - uh what? I've always tried to be careful removing BLPProds, which I do take very seriously. As far as I understand, that is allowed if one adds a proper reference. And I think I almost always have done this. I added someone's blog? This doesn't ring a bell. Can you point it out? It's possibly an error I made. Don't the remaining edits predate my March 24th commitment to be more discerning? Nfitz (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You removed the BLPPROD on Firmansyah Priatna with the edit summary "add ref" by inserting a reference to http://forzapersija.blogspot.ca. The BLPPPROD was replaced by another editor. Black Kite (talk) 11:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Because I think there is a better way to do this than to ban someone from doing something that is not really against any the guideline. Yes its disruptive when someone removes PRODS for no real reason, and yes its even more disruptive when they are removed in mass, but theres nothing in the guideline against removing them so it really wouldn't be fair to ban someone for following the guideline. Despite my recent involvement with an editor who removed a PROD for no real reason on an obviously hoax article, I can't really see anything in the guideline that says that there needs to be a reason. It just "encourages" the person removing them to state a reason. Also there's nothing that says that they can't be removed in mass. I suggest we dictate a section at WP:PROD that not just "encourages" a reason, but "requires" a justified reason why the article should be kept, and not just the "It needs more discussion" argument, because thats a poor reason. That way we are not simply blocking for disruption, but theoretically closing the loop hole that created the disruption in the first place.--JOJ 20:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • The issue is not necessarily that Nfitz does not provide a reason, but that the reason he uses (at least in the AfD arguments) does not stand up to scrutiny in those debates. If this was a recent problem then I could understand your reluctance to support action, but this has been a problem for over half a decade. At what point do you stop assuming good faith and accept that someone is just disruptive? Do we just put up with a stream of completely pointless AfDs just to humour someone whose sole activity on Misplaced Pages is now deprodding articles and debating the results? Number 57 21:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Not suggesting that its not disruptive, but banning the user would be like continuing to bail the water out of a sinking boat while continuing to ignore and not fix the hole. Lets fix the hole in the boat first before topic banning people for doing something that is, albeit disruptive, not against guidelines. Because of we topic ban for this, where do we draw the line and how do we know its been crossed?--JOJ 22:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
      • But tightening up the guideline won't stop what he's doing unless the guideline is specifically edited to say that a prod cannot be removed from an article on a footballer unless they pass WP:NFOOTY - this is the precise problem (he always claims they meet the GNG), and I don't believe changing the guideline is possible solution (it would seem rather odd to include that one specific requirement), unless you have an alternative suggestion? Number 57 22:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
        • I have to disagree with the assessment that Nfitz's actions do not violate policy. They do not violate PROD policy per se, but disruptive editing of any kind does. If done, as Number57 suggest, in full knowledge of what the notability guidelines are, it qualifies as Attempting to force an untoward interpretation of policy, or impose one's own novel view of "standards to apply" rather than those of the community. Current PROD policy has it's down side, but works effectively when not abused. When it is, broader guidelines apply. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:40, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Just oppose, per Jojhutton  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh   21:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose given the nature of PRODs.--v/r - TP 00:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support as a last resort. I haven't run across this editor before, but sampling a number of the deleted contribs makes it pretty clear that this isn't as simple as explaining to them, and has gone on for a long time. There is a pattern to this, of deep misunderstanding of the deletion process as well as GNG, IAR and other basic policies. If they are not stopped from participating, they are headed down the path of getting a WP:DE block log before too long because these kinds of deletions are disruptive and becoming too frequent. A limited topic ban is the least disruptive way to allow the editor to contribute, while keeping them away from a problem area. If they really feel a PROD needs removing, they can bring it to someone else's attention, who can perhaps act as a filter, and in time they may actually learn what is and isn't an appropriate removal of PROD, by example. If the goal is to remove the disruption and give the editor the change to actually learn, this would appear to be the proper solution. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm not even sure why this has been brought here. As far as I know this was all resolved in the original discussions that User:GiantSnowman referenced here and here. And also in the third discussion on this, that for some reason User:GiantSnowman failed to reference here. I've been open to discussion, I have made concessions, and I have tried to work constructively.

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