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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Gun control was copied or moved into Nazi gun control with this edit on 16:14, 24 March 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Nazi gun control in a nutshell: Since Nazi gun control is not (as of March 2014) broadly supported by scholarship in its field, this article was created to provide a forum for more extensive treatment that would be WP:UNDUE in an article about mainstream or less controversial topics. Since Nazi gun control is a small minority viewpoint, and since there is no Misplaced Pages consensus about whether or not it is historical revisionism, fringe theory, or something else, it is suggested that the proper contextual relationship between it and majority viewpoints be clear throughout.

Why this page was created

This page was created in response to apparently endless, heated debates on talk pages like those for Gun control and Gun politics in the United States. Specifically, an ArbCom was started on 5 January 2014 re: the Gun control article and questionable conduct that ensued during an Authoritarianism and gun control RfC and other discussions.

The discussion spilled over into the Gun politics in the U.S. talk page, where a Split proposal was made on 29 January 2014. That fizzled out pending the ArbCom decision, but as of today (21 March 2014) the ArbCom is still open.

Where it goes, who knows, but my idea for this article is to present Nazi gun control arguments as (possibly legitimate) historical revisionism. (Personally, I consider it fringe, but my editor's gut tells me doing the article this way could cut down on future wars about other articles.) What I wrote in the Split proposal discussion was:

"So far, internal and external to Misplaced Pages, there seems to be an agreement that the Nazi gun law theory is the view of a tiny minority. Per WP:UNDUE: Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views."

Some suggested that this article might be/become a POV fork, but I said then and I still believe that it's a WP:SPINOFF, though it might be acceptable under one of the other acceptable types of forking, like WP:SUBPOV.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I will... I created this article in good faith.

Lightbreather (talk) 02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

We do not create spinoff articles to present fringe theories. This issue has no significance whatsoever beyond the narrow confines of the US 'gun control' debate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree 100% with Andy. I do not question your good faith, but creating an article "in response to apparently endless, heated debates on other talk pages" does not serve an encyclopaedic purpose. It only creates a forum for "endless, heated debates". If the topic can be dealt with in a collegiate manner, it can be done on the existing pages. If not, creating a separate article will exacerbate rather than solve the problem. I think – and correct me if I'm wrong – that you believe by creating this article we can remove the content from the other articles, but I can guarantee you that's not going to happen. Scolaire (talk) 08:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Scolaire, you wrote on the Gun control talk page (in reply to my notice re: the creation of this page), "In three years it has not been possible to get a single paragraph in article that is encyclopaedic and NPOV." True! But even if you or I or another editor are able to get a single paragraph into it now that is encyclopedic and NPOV, what are the chances that it will stay that way for even a few weeks or months? Soon, someone will come along and start tweaking it and adding to it... Even as much as is in it now re: this topic is already WP:UNDUE per the majority of editors who weighed in on the subject prior to the ArbCom. It is an almost exclusively U.S. argument right now, by a small but vocal group: possibly fringe or historical revisionist, depending on who you ask.

As for endless, heated debates, better to have them here than to take up so much energy on the Gun control article, which is practically paralyzed over this one issue. By giving the hypothesis its own article here, we divert the arguments from there (and other articles), for editors who want to discuss it. Until or unless more mainstream sources give this stuff credence, a separate article - this article, for reasons given above - is the best solution. Lightbreather (talk) 19:21, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

So you're saying, instead of trying to improve a crap paragraph in an article, let's make a crap article and allow users to make it progressively more crap? I'd like to know which policy you're basing that idea on. Scolaire (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I'm proposing at all. I'm saying write an NPOV sentence in that article that links to this article, and work to make this article "not crap." (It is currently a stub - on purpose - and that's the crappiest part of it right now, IMHO.) That takes the pressure off of the Gun control page about how to develop everything else that should be there about the global/international gun control subject - but is not because of the time spent on this volatile fringe/historical revisionism (depending on whom one asks) topic.

The sentence there could be something like:

A small, but vocal and mostly U.S., group of gun-rights advocates believe in a historical revisionism hypothesis that Nazi gun control contributed significantly to the Holocaust. This hypothesis is not supported by mainstream scholarship.

So, that's actually two sentences - but it leaves the development of the controversial Nazi notion for a different, dedicated "fringe" page (until such time as there's widespread, mainstream acceptance). Lightbreather (talk) 00:21, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

--Lightbreather (talk) 00:21, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure which way this should go. I guess that the main criteria are wp:notability (essentially that there is suitable coverage of it in sources), whether or not it is a wp:fork (I think not) and whether it fits in the "scheme of things" with respect to other related articles (I'm thinking "yes" on this but am not sure.) I don't agree with the nutshell nor that the "why this article was created" constitute a reasons for existence, but if the other criteria are met, no such argument is required. North8000 (talk) 02:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

• Delete article. This article is radically against multiple policies. First, the title does not reflect the scope, which includes "other authoritarian regimes". Second, the scope carefully excludes the Nazi gun policy that more likely did have a substantial effect: disarming citizens in occupied countries. Third, the content is not NPOV, as it categorizes all discussion of the subject as either revisionist or conspiracy-related. Fourth, this article is meant to be either a POV fork, or the sole solitary place where this information can be dumped without summarizing it anywhere else. Those reasons are off the top of my head, and doubtless more can be listed upon further contemplation if such were needed.Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:42, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

If the scope includes 'disarming citizens in occupied countries', per WP:NPOV the article would have to point out that this has been normal policy in practically every case of a country being militarily occupied - and nothing whatsoever to do with 'authoritarian regimes'. This is what occupying powers do - as in the obvious example of the allied occupation of Germany after WW2. Where the death penalty was a possible sanction for infringement. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The consensus seems to be to delete the article for a variety of reasons, but I'm happy to wait for the ArbCom decision first. As for usual practice in occupied countries, we'd have to follow reliable sources wherever they go. For example, those sources might point out that disarming an occupied country is much easier and much more effective if the previous tradition of gun-ownership was negligible----or not. They might point out that the Nazis disarmed occupied countries for a longer period of time than the norm---or not. They might indicate that US practice in Iraq and Afghanistan was identical to that of the Nazis in Poland --- or not. They might assert that disarming an occupied populace is much easier if the occupied country provides lists from their gun registration agencies --- or not. They might say that even a small oversight by a disarming army of occupation can result in major damage to that army via assassination of its officers---or not. I really have no idea. Let's not debate the fine points of the holocaust unless we have to.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:07, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Wow, I'm about as anti-deletion as it gets, but in addition to being a mess, I'm not sure this article serves any kind of positive purpose other than giving the editors involved in the Gun Control content discussions a new place to debate. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:41, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• Delete article. Here we go again with another POV fork, filled to the brim with Original research, written exclusively by a single editor. This article, as it stands, ignores 20 or more Misplaced Pages policies. NOTE: Before anyone places a deletion tag, I strongly suggest that you read this first. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 19:18, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Sources

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

--Lightbreather (talk) 02:29, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Attribution

Misplaced Pages works by a CC-BY-SA 3.0 License. That means that you can copy or adapt content, but you must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor. In Misplaced Pages:Merging it specifies how to do this. Save the edit, leaving the following edit summary (as required by the Creative Commons Share-alike 3.0 license):

Merged content from ] to here. See ].

This edit, this one and probably others, including the expansion of refs, have clearly been copied and adapted from Gun control but there has been no attribution. Please remove all affected content at once. It can be replaced if proper attribution is given, and it would be polite to leave a note at Talk:Gun control to let editors there know that you are copying their work. Scolaire (talk) 08:32, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't done yet, but I should have given the attribution first. I apologize. I added the "copied" box to the top of the talk page. Lightbreather (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

That'll do fine. Thanks. Scolaire (talk) 19:13, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletion

Given the above discussions, it seems evident that there is little support for this article - I have therefore added a proposed deletion template. If the PROD is declined, I will take this to AfD. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Lightbreather (talk) 20:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Some people actually supported the idea of this article, depending on the decision of the ArbCom, which is supposed to be revealed tonight.

I would prefer that this fringe crap (IMO) not be in/on Misplaced Pages at all, but the the people who support it are just gonna keep pushing it and pushing it, so I'd rather they have a dedicated fringe/historical revisionism article than to keep disrupting every gun-control related WP article. Lightbreather (talk) 18:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't create articles on fringe subjects just because contributors refuse to work within policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Right. They create them to keep them from getting weight in non-fringe articles. As I said, I'd just as soon we didn't have an article like this, but it's OK under WP:FRINGE... as long as it's identified as fringe and editors don't try to drag more than a mention of that fringe into any other article. Lightbreather (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not interested in a long-winded debate. If you wish to contest the proposed deletion by removing the template, you are entitled to do so - at which point I will take the article to AfD. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:16, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Mercy, Andy! I was only explaining why it was created. If it gets deleted, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Lightbreather (talk) 20:25, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Preserved material

Some of the material I moved here today from the "Studies, debates, and opinions" section of the "Gun control" article was already here. I am preserving it here, just in case.

Modern proponents of the security-against-tyranny argument claim that the Nazis could have been inhibited by a more well-armed population (that claim is controversial)...

The following was inside the end parenthesis, after "controversial," in "Notes" format:

In response to arguments that German gun control laws were an enabling factor in The Holocaust, that prevented Jews and other victims from implementing an effective resistance, writers such as Bernard Harcourt agree that gun laws and regulations were used in the genocide of the Jews, but argue that the prior levels of gun ownership were not high enough to enable significant resistance, and that confiscation was a minor and incidental piece of the actions perpetrated by the Nazis. Gun control activists further argue that the use of Nazi allusions by gun rights activists is meant to raise undue fear about modern disarmament and "throw a scare into gun owners in order to rally them to the side of the NRA", and groups such as the Anti-Defamation League also say that use of the Holocaust in these arguments is offensive to the victims of the Nazis. However, not all Jews feel that way.

1. Halbrook, Stephen (2000). "Nazi Firearms Law and the Disarming of the German Jews" (PDF). Arizona Journal of International and Comparative Law. 17: 484.
2. Halbrook, Stephen (2006). "Nazism, the Second Amendment, and the NRA: A Reply to Professor Harcourt". Texas Review of Law & Politics. 11.
3. LaPierre, Wayne (1994). Guns, Crime, and Freedom. Regnery. pp. 88–87, 167–168.
4. Harcourt, Bernard (2004). "On Gun Registration, the NRA, Adolf Hitler, and Nazi Gun Laws: Exploding the Gun Culture Wars (A Call to Historians)". Fordham Law Review: 670, 676, 679. "To be sure, the Nazis were intent on killing Jewish persons and used the gun laws and regulations to further the genocide....istorians have paid scant attention to the history of firearms regulation in the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich."
5. Aronsen, Gavin (January 11, 2013). "Was Hitler Really a Fan of Gun Control?". Mother Jones.
6. Seitz-Wald, Alex (January 11, 2013). "The Hitler Gun Control Lie". Salon.
7. Frank, Monte. "The Holocaust taken in vain to promote gun rights", The Guardian (July 13, 2013).
8. The Anti-Defamation League (January 24, 2013). "ADL Says Nazi Analogies Have No Place In Gun Control Debate". Anti-Defamation League. Retrieved February 2, 2013.
9. Coscarelli, Joe. “Jewish Firearms Group Compares Bloomberg Gun Control to Genocide, Nazis”, The Village Voice (March 9, 2011).
10. “Rabbi Defends Comparison of Gun Owners to Holocaust Victims”, WFLD, Channel 32, Fox News, Chicago (May 3, 2011).

--Lightbreather (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Unused bibliography

• Aronsen, Gavin (January 11, 2013). "Was Hitler Really a Fan of Gun Control?". Mother Jones.
• Bard, Mitchell (2001). The Complete history of the Holocaust. San Diego, CA: Greenhaven Press. ISBN 9780737703733.
• Bard, Mitchell (2008). 48 hours of Kristallnacht: night of destruction/dawn of the Holocaust: an oral history. Guilford, Conn: Lyons Press. ISBN 9781599214450.
• Brown, R. Blake (2012). Arming and disarming: a history of gun control in Canada. Toronto Ont.: University of Toronto Press. ISBN 9781442646391.
• Chapman, Simon (2013). Over our dead bodies: Port Arthur and Australia's fight for gun control. Sydney: Sydney University Press. ISBN 9781743320310.
• Frank, Monte (July 13, 2013). "The Holocaust taken in vain to promote gun rights". The Guardian. Guardian News and Media.
• Halbrook, Stephen (1985). That every man be armed: the evolution of a constitutional right. Albuquerque: University of New Mexico Press. ISBN 0826308686.
• Horwitz, Joshua; Anderson, Casey (2009). Guns, Democracy, and the Insurrectionist Idea. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 9780472021994.
• Polsby, Daniel D.; Kates, Don B. (1997). "Of Holocausts and Gun Control". Washington University Law Quarterly. 75 (3): 1237–1275.
• Rummel, R. J. (1994). Death by government. New Brunswick, N.J: Transactions Publishers. ISBN 9781412821292.
• Seitz-Wald, Alex (January 11, 2013). "The Hitler gun control lie". Salon. Salon Media Group.

Move

I have moved the article to a title that more accurately reflects its contents. I would have preferred to delete this article, but apparently it will be the only place at Misplaced Pages for well-sourced content deleted everywhere else.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:51, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Fringe

The lead says: "Many consider Nazi gun control to be a fringe theory because it is not supported by history, Holocaust, legal, or political science scholarship." There is no source cited there or anywhere else that supports the "fringe" label. If a historian who is a reliable source can be found that describes the hypothesis as fringe then it needs to be cited here. The hypothesis is speculative, and it's very difficult to prove or disprove speculation; in other words, it may well be that this hypothesis is not falsifiable, in which case "fringe" may or may not be the right word for it. Additionally, I don't think we ought to be saying that the stuff Halbrook wrote is not "scholarship", unless we have a reliable source saying that it's not "scholarship".Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:56, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

The hypothesis is fringe because it isn't taken seriously by academic historians of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust - the relevant academic field. And I would remind you that not only was this very issue central to the ArbCom case - which made entirely clear that "placing undue weight on inappropriate material in articles" was sanctionable - but that ArbCom has previously made it very clear on previous occasions that undue promotion of fringe topics in general is likewise sanctionable. If it is your intention to attempt to Wikilawyer around policy by arguing semantics, I should warn you that I will have no hesitation in bringing the matter before ArbCom again if necessary. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:37, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

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