Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:22, 26 June 2006

Who coined the term 'cold fusion'?

An editor deleted the mention of Jones coining the term cold fusion. A serch turned up several sources that make the assertion. However, another site indicates Dr. Paul Palmer used the term "cold fusion" beginning in early 1986. Evidently, this matter needs to be sorted out. Ombudsman 00:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am confused about it. I put in an email to Jones and alerted him to this page.Bov 20:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Critics

The section on "Critics" states: "While Jones points out reported claims of molten metal, he makes no mention of reports about possible answers such as aluminum."

There is no source supplied as to who the critic is, and I disagree with the implied insinuation that Jones should be speculating that aluminum can explain away the reports of molten metal.

What Jones was refering to were the puzzling reports of molten metal in the basements of buildings 1, 2 and 7 weeks after the buildings had collapsed.

Jones actually said this in his report ...

"However, scientific analysis, using for example X-ray fluorescence, would be needed to ascertain the actual composition of the molten metal."

and this

"None of the official reports tackles this mystery. Yet this is evidently a significant clue to what caused the Towers and WTC 7 to collapse. So I would very much like to see an analysis of the elemental composition of the metal, and could do this myself if a small sample were made available according to scientific courtesy."

None of the above is unreasonable, he's simply asking for samples and photographs so that the claims of molten metal can be studied. At no point is Jones trying to claim that the molten metal cannot be explained without the use of explosives. Unlike his critics, Jones does not speculate that the metal was aluminum, instead he wants to find out for certain through a real scientific study.

Jones goes on to say this at the end of his paper ...

"In particular, photos and analyses of the molten metal (probably not molten steel) observed in the basements of both Towers and WTC7 need to be brought forth to the international community of scientists and engineers immediately. Therefore, along with others, I call for the release of these and all relevant data for scrutiny by a cross-disciplinary, international team of researchers. The explosive-demolition hypothesis will be considered: all options will be on the table."

All that Jones really is asking for, is for independant investigators to be given access to samples of the available evidence so that it can be studied by the scientific community in however way is seen fit.

The "Critic" section in my view is out of place with what Jones has actually said and should be revised. At the very least, sources of critics outside of wikipedia should be provided if there are any.

Here's the link to Jones's paper for verification

I understand your concerns prehaps I've gone over the line and I should reword it. The topic regarding motlen metal is a common one among the 9/11 chat groups. Many on google groups, top secret, conspiracy chat groups etc have stated that the metal could be explained by aluminum. There are also photos that seem to support the claim of melted aluminum. Certanlly this is a contraversal topic. I would like this to be correct and more objective, yet I do feel that Jones clearly suggests in his article that thermite explains some of this metal and I feel this is an important article. I am open for suggestions on rewording that would better make all parties happy.

current version: "While Jones points out reported claims of molten metal, he makes no mention of reports about possible answers such as aluminum."

Jones has no reponsibility to try to make a claim about what type of metal it is - he is being responsible by NOT making any particular claim when he literally does not have enough evidence and WANTS the evidence in order to MAKE a claim that's based on science. His response has been to call for a release of the current information. Why is that deleted every time I try to post it? Whether or not chat groups think its aluminum is not a reason to say that Jones hasn't responded to that claim. Chat groups also say that holograms hit the towers.

I'm concerned that this section is becoming simply an effort to discredit Jones by rewording the facts or excluding some aspects to confuse a reader. When someone says he 'coined the phrase cold fusion' without including the fact that he doesn't DO cold fusion as science, we are creating the impression that he does do cold fusion. This is subtle but inappropriate and typical of the stuff I'm seeing on here. For example, including only people who don't agree with Jones but none who DO is also not realistic. It makes it seem like he is out there alone making these calls, when he is not.Bov 18:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Jones states" Thermite (whose end product is molten iron) used on some of the steel beams readily accounts for the molten metal which then pooled beneath the rubble piles. I believe this is a straightforward hypothesis, much more probable than the official hypothesis. It deserves scientific scrutiny, beyond what I have been able to outline in this treatise. " Are you saying its OK to speculate about iron but not aluminum? Anyway... I will continue pondering how to reword the paragraph. Scotts...

I think the Critics section has improved, however I have a new comment to make.

The email from Dr. Miller reads:

"I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims"

It should be noted that at no point does Dr. Miller specify why he and the structural engineering professors in his department do not think that there is accuracy and validity to Jones' scientific study.

The statement issued by the BYU physics department reads in part:

"The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones's hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU's own faculty members."

It appears to me that the statement is cleverly worded to appear as if there is something wrong with Jones' work because it is being questioned, however this is normal practice for any scientific paper. This portion of the statement is not actually a citique of Jones' work since any scientific study is always questioned for validity.

The last part of the statement reads:

"The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones."

As with Dr. Miller's email, the same note should be made that at no point is there a specifc criticism for Jones to defend against.

In conclusion, both statements are baseless attacks on Jones' credibility because there are no rational arguments put forth for Jones to defend against. Effectively these two criticism boil down to "We don't agree with Jones' work because we say so."

I think the Miller's email and BYU's statement should both be noted, however the reader should be made aware that both critiques are ad hominem in nature.

I think it would be appropriate for the article to point out that neither statement addressed or responded to any of the specific points that Jones made. But the inference that you draw from that, though I largely agree with it, is original resarch unless you can cite someone who has made such an analysis. Also, the two comments you refer to do not strike me as "ad hominem" attacks per se - more just a priori rejections. As Jones's paper makes its way through the peer review and official publication proccesses, those sort of arbitary dismissals will likely be harder to pull off. Blackcats 06:36, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

PS - If you haven't done so already, I would reccomend setting up a Misplaced Pages user name (link in the upper right corner of every wikipedia page) if you want your views to carry more weight in votes and discussions here. Blackcats 07:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Note: I've made slight edits to correct minor errors in the grammar. Yes, I think I'll register.

Links

I think as a bare minimum criteria, for any links to "critics" of Jones, the page needs to at the very least mention Jones's name. Of all the links in the first paragraph of the "Critics" section though, only one does this. And a majority of them link to one site - 911myths.com. WP:NOT specifically says that Misplaced Pages should not be a "link farm." The readers are perfectly capable of navigating around that site for themselves, so we don't need to link to every single page on their site. We should only link more than one specific page there if each one offers a unique commentary on Jones and his work. Also, it's important to keep in mind that this article is about Jones and his work, not about "9/11 conspiracy theories" in general. And it's original research if an editor here points people to a certain article which doesn't even mention Jones and basically says "I think this Rebuts Jones's arguments." Unless the source specifically discusses Jones and his work then it's not appropriate for this page. That said, I'm gonna remove all external links that don't mention Jones. Blackcats 03:26, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Original Research

As I recently stated in my edit summaries, I have removed content that was based on sources which did not specifically address Jones. That's original research in this context. The article already links to "9/11 Conspiracy Theories," and if someone feels the need, an additional link can be posted to refer users there for a more general discussion of the overall issues which doesn't neccesarilly address Jones and his work. Blackcats 03:46, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Looks like some changes have been made since I've been gone. I think I agree with many of the past edits. I'll have to look it over again when I have more time. I'm always learning here at Misplaced Pages. ThanksScottS 03:13, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Criticism in context

Jgm removed the following qualifier from the passage addressing criticism from faculty at BYU: "though none of these has addressed any of the points which Jones made in his paper and at his presentation at BYU." But it's neccesary for the reader's understanding to put criticism in context and to differentate between specific scientific critiques that would attempt to refute his work and those dismissals that did not cite evidence or were merely rhetorical. Like I said above, adding an inference about what that lack of a scientific response might mean would be original research, unless a notable interpretation to that effect could be cited. But it's perfectly apporpriate to state the facts and allow the readers to come to their own conclusions. Blackcats 08:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Passage from paper

Jgm also removed a passage from Jones's paper. Since so much of his notability is due to that paper, and it is the focus of so much of the article, I think including a short passage from it is perfectly appropriate in order to give the readers some of the flavor of his work. I agree that reposting large sections of it would not be appropriate, but this very short and relevant passage greatly aids the reader's understanding of his work. Blackcats 08:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article fails NPOV dramatically. There is no mention that Prof. Jones is percived as a total crank by the scientific community regarding his 9-11 theories. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you please be more specific? H0riz0n

> The above statement makes no sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.85.107.40 (talk • contribs) .

I moved this from the article page:

Note: The above two paragraphs and links are becoming aged. There are no direct links to official statements. Consider re-structuring or re-wording.

Tom Harrison 04:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason why both Prof Jones' theories and the criticisms against him have dispute tag except Hipocrite thinks that 'Prof. Jones is percived as a total crank' without sources? I'd like to remove them. With that as a criteria, we'd have to add that tag to every page that questions the official story. Bov 03:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Please do. H0riz0n

He Also Believes That Jesus Visited America

I believe this is an extremely important piece of information about him. I'm not going to say anything negative about his religious beliefs. However, I feel that this doesn't constitute very effective scientific research. http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext%20and%20figures.htm --151.213.158.156 21:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I guess he's religious. I haven't looked at this paper, and I don't know a lot about the history of Jesus either, so I don't know anything about it other than that the claim sounds bizarre. Unless the material in his WTC article is shown to be dysfunctional, I don't know how relevant it is either. Art Bell supports the official story of 9/11. Is that relevant? I doubt it. SkeenaR 04:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Subject to my limited knowledge, "Jones believes Jesus visited America" just means "Jones is a Mormon." I don't think that should be presented as somehow discrediting him. I agree that it isn't relevant. Tom Harrison 14:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

He's writing a report about something religious in nature and using questionable methods and leaps in logic to justify it. Yep, it's relevant since the creationists who claim they're scientists don't even use the scientific method and are put in their place by real scientists. This is probably one of the biggest things that can be used against him within the scientific community.{subst:unsigned|67.141.136.27}}

Thank you, 67.141.136.27, for demonstrating the ad hominem nature of this attack. — goethean ॐ 16:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I skimmed the paper Jones wrote about Jesus visiting America. What Jones did is pick and choose evidence to support his beliefs. The editor is not making an ad hominem argument; he is suggesting that Jones can be expected to have done the same thing with his work on 9/11. (And I think, by the way, that he and the other "9/11 researchers" have done just that). I understand the anonymous editor's point. If the paper were about something other than Jones' religion, I'd say it was appropriate to cite it as evidence of his unreliablity. As it is, I don't think it's appropriate to use the guy's religion to discredit him. Tom Harrison 16:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I cannot believe how people can get out of their minds. It is crucial information that Steve Jones gives credit to other theories that hold strictly no scientific water! I think the Mormon and "Jesus left an 'I was here' sign in Peru" pieces of info are, well, part of the big Steve Jones picture. It does not need to be phrased as "Jones is a profoundly stupid zealot" (my own POV), but it should be indicated somewhere in NPOV Misplaced Pages terms. Concealing info it by judging it 'irrelevant' is a typical revisionist technique. Simply drop the Aztec Jesus link in his bio and let people think, if that's what you want. But I am not sure that the people who built the bio wanted that: insisting on 'cold fusion' and not developing the controversial aspects tells a lot to me. Would I be religious and/or convinced by 9/11 Theory, the Misplaced Pages obligation to be exhaustive and not simply discard important biographic information by 'irrelevating' it would drive me towards the same opinion.

I know you have an engineering background. Do you personally have any kind of opinion on the veracity of his 9/11 paper? I'm pretty sure you have an opinion on the whole controlled demolition theory, but I would still be interested to hear what you have to say from a technical standpoint if you care to share your thoughts on it. SkeenaR 23:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I have a degree in mechanical engineering, and I have worked with structural steel, but in bridges rather than buildings. I am in no sense qualified to hold an opinion on the structural engineering aspects of the collapse. I have significantly more experience with explosives and demolitions, and I have used linear shaped charges and thermite. I have not done any work in controlled demolition of buildings, and I'm not qualified to evaluate Jones' work, except as a layman.

His work does not have the ring of truth. Jones writes like someone who has read about, but never used, explosives. "I maintain that these observations are consistent with the use of high-temperature cutter-charges such as thermite, HDX or RDX or some combination thereof, routinely used to melt/cut/demolish steel." This is technobabble. In what sense is RDX a high-temperature cutter-charge? What does that even mean? Is he suggesting that linear shaped charges of RDX melted the steel? From what I've seen the results of shaped charges on steel are more like tearing. Later he refers to pools of molten metal weeks after the event. Certainly thermite will melt steel, but how much thermite are we talking about? Truckloads? (By the way, I think some back-of-the-envelope heat-transfer calculations are in order there.)

Rigging a skyscraper for controlled demolition is a massive undertaking, and a disruptive one. You would need open access to the structural members for weeks, there would be detonating cord everywhere, other members would probably need to be protected from damage so they didn't fail at the wrong time, and the workers would probably tear up the drywall and trash the carpets. And then what about priming the whole thing? Is it going to be left for weeks or months with blasting caps installed in the high explosives? I don't think so. And where is all this thermite going to be? I don't see how it would be possible to do this secretly.

I don't see any basis for concluding that these puffs of smoke are from 'squibs.' He seems to just say they must be, because squibs can make puffs of smoke. "See the puffs of smoke? Those are squibs. How do I know they're squibs? Because of the puffs of smoke."

I read through his paper, and read through (parts of) the NIST and FEMA reports, and the Popular Mechanics article. Jones' work sounds like junk science; The NIST and FEMA reports are less exciting, but seem solid and workman-like. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I'm not qualified to do a point-by-point debunking of Jones' work. It doesn't really matter what I think anyway. All we can do here is write, "This is what Jones says" and "This is what others say." Everyone with an interest has to read and make up his mind. Tom Harrison 20:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that. There are a couple places I remember where some demolition experts were supposed to follow up on his work. I'm going to try and get around to finding the links and post them here for the sake of interest(if there is anything there yet). SkeenaR 06:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Info on Jones' WTC Collapse Hypothesis Being Published

Jones' paper is not (or no longer) scheduled for release in THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF 9-11-2001

His paper now states: "The paper (below) has undergone modifications and a second set of peer reviews and has been accepted for publication in a volume edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott."

Regarding THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF 9-11-2001, Jones' paper now states "Prof. Griffin's paper is scheduled for publication in The Hidden History of 9-11-2001, Research in Political Economy, Volume 23, P. Zarembka, editor, Amsterdam: Elsevier, forthcoming in Spring 2006."

CB Brooklyn 01:57, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Using the current info from Jones' paper: " has been accepted for publication in a volume edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott."

and the info at the top of this page: "This paper will appear in 9/11 AND THE AMERICAN EMPIRE: INTELLECTUALS SPEAK OUT, David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott, eds. (Northampton: Interlink Books, 2006)"

can we assume that Jones' paper will also appear in the 9/11 AND THE AMERICAN EMPIRE: INTELLECTUALS SPEAK OUT?

CB Brooklyn 11:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Affiliations

I have viewed a taped lecture in which Jones states he is a "life long Republican" but the text seems to indicate has no affiliation at all. I can make a link to the video but I am unsure of WP's policy on this. Do I need to add a time index (the video is 2:13:00 long. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586 )

Bpd1069 13:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Jones is is Co-Chair of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, not just a member. Info updated accordingly. http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/AboutUs.html

CB Brooklyn 05:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

News

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/110406Physicist.htm --Striver 22:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

what is the purpose of this link? --mtz206 22:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review Status of WTC CD Hypothesis

See here (scroll down about half way) for letter written to BYU concerning their statement: "Professor Jones's department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review. The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones."

BYU removed the above statement from their website after threat of an ethics complaint. The letter explains that Jones' paper was peer reviewed.

Is there still debate on whether Jones' paper was peer reviewed?

CB Brooklyn 17:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Wood

I removed

More recently, the conservation of momentum and fall times were analyzed by Dr. Judy Wood, a Mechanical Engineering professor at Clemson University. Jones references and refers to her paper as "instructive although preliminary".

Neither of the references provided support this statement, unless I overlooked it. Also, and more importantly, janedoe0911.tripod.com is not a reliable source for information about a living person, unless it's Wood's own site. Tom Harrison 00:50, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/BilliardBalls.html is Dr Judy Wood's site. It is referenced as such in Jones' paper, st911.org homepage, and http://www.911blogger.com/2006/03/mechanical-engineering-professor-from.html

What statement is not supported?

CB Brooklyn 01:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I see where the confusion is. Jones' statement "instructive although preliminary" is in his own paper, on BYUs website - CB Brooklyn 02:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I had the impression it was her site, but I didn't see her name anywhere. Does she reference it somewhere? Tom Harrison 02:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I haven't found a site where she, herself, references that particular site. But she has communicated with Jones via email (see http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Comments_Jones_05May2006.html )

also she'll be giving a lecture about 9/11. (link from st911.org's site:

http://www.sem.org/app-conf-AC-list1.asp )

there's this info from http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/WhoAreWe.html

Judy Wood (FM)

Mechanical Engineering, Clemson University

She mentioned here too, as the instructor of a grad student who was murdered "execution style".

but no where (afaik) does she herself confirm that the janedoe site is hers.

CB Brooklyn 02:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we need something from her, or from a reliable source, before she's included. Tom Harrison 02:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

A reliable source, other than Jones and 911Blogger. It makes sense I guess.. CB Brooklyn 02:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I expect there will be confirmation pretty soon. I'd actually be interested to see the paper she's to present at the SEM conference. Tom Harrison 03:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the conference is only a few weeks away. Hopefully that paper will be put up on the internet. In the meantime, I'm going to add some info about Kevin Ryan to Jones' paper. (His paper has his name on it.)

rhetorical off topic question: I wonder why no government scientists (or any scientists for that matter) have come forward to explain how impact damage and fire created multiple anomalies that could all be explained by controlled demolitions??

CB Brooklyn 03:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Rigging the place for demolition would have taken hundreds of man-hours and caused massive disruption. Doing it in secret would have been impossible. I don't think anyone who knows anything about demolition takes those speculations very seriously. Tom Harrison 03:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, there was a demolitions expert who, just hours after the attacks, said he could tell it was a controlled demolition just by watching the video footage. But 10 days later he recants without explaining why, and then gets promotions. Hmm..

I agree it would have been a difficult job to rig the towers. But there were two strange events:

1. a powerdown in the South Tower the weekend before 9/11 (for the first time in its history). mp3 interview here

2. many unusual evacuations in the weeks before 9/11.

CB Brooklyn 03:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Forgot to mention... GWB's brother Marvin, and a cousin, were both principals in the WTC's security company. -CB Brooklyn 04:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

>>Rigging the place for demolition would have taken hundreds of man-hours and caused massive disruption.

Tom, that's not very creative of you. Are you saying you couldn't do it, on weekends and evenings, with months and months of time, and access to the entire buildings? There are almost an infinite number of scenarios for discretely placing demolition charges or thermite inside the buildings over time. We could start with the elevator shafts. I don't personally support the "power-down" hypothesis because there is only a single source who has ever come out on that and no published corroboration at all (CB B - I also don't cite 'killtown' or '9/11review.org' for anything because there is cherry-picked and erronenous information on those sites, not to mention links to the webfairy and associated hoax efforts). But to flat out state "it's impossible" is not based in fact, only conjecture. We don't actually know if it's possible or not. bov 01:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose you could, but how would you keep people from noticing the tons of explosives planted in their workplace. And how come you wouldn't have any of the many explosives experts necescary to do this come forward with this after realizing they had participated in the most fucked up event in history?--DCAnderson 01:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Bov: Killtown is one of the most reputable 9/11 Truth sources out there. Besides, there's an mp3 interview link from a non-killtown site. Also there's a link to People magazine. Take a look at Killtown's 200+ 9/11 Smoking Guns found in the MSM

DCAnderson: they're afraid of getting fired, or worse

CB Brooklyn 02:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how many people work in office towers in Manhattan but just to state, it would not be hard to plant explosives in a building considering people are not allowed in the stair wells. Do I believe this happened? Well I did find it odd buildings fell so orderly, makes you wonder if you ever really need a demo team. But depending on where they say they would have needed to place them, its more then easy. You also have to consider that most floors in high rise buildings arent the actual floor, you are walking on floor boards, its how they run the cat5 and power cables to each cubicle. But still not something you can probably ever prove. --Zer0faults 16:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the floors in the majority of office buildings bring cabling down from the ceilings where along conducts and behind the drywall in offices. Even large cubical dominated areas usually have coduct coming down from the ceilings. The only place they tend to have drop flooring is in server rooms in most cases. It would takes months to plant charges in any buildings and none of the buildings that collapsed were ever unoccupied...there was always someone in them, especially since we are tlaking about the WTC...many asian markets are open when the U.S. ones aren't. It would have been impossible to plant explosives undetected.--MONGO 18:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

More to the point, not something you could ever disprove. Tom Harrison 17:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, the "stairwells" is a strawman. You'd need access to the structural members, not the stairwells. The buildings were occupied 24-7 (as evening shots of the building will show, due to the global nature of the financial sector. Many of the tenants were in fact Asian and european banks . --Mmx1 18:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What's all this talk about how explosives got in the buildings? It's really a red herring. What's important is that the government never explained how fire and impact damage created numerous anomalies previously only seen in controlled demolitions. On 9/11, it happened three times? Come on :-) Besides, we already know that there was a powerdown in the South Tower, there were many unusual evacuations weeks before 9/11, and W's brother and cousin were principals in the WTC security company. CB Brooklyn 02:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussing "how" the demolitions got into the building is the first step in supporting the theory that the WTC was destroyed by demolitions. If there was no physically possible method for setting up the two largest demolitions in history without the occupants noticing, then it wasn't possible. Not even in theory.--71.255.24.115 04:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

How many un-controlled 100 story building collapses are we using for reference here? — ceejayoz 06:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

WTC 7 was not 100 stories. CB Brooklyn 06:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

How many WTC7-sized collapses are you using, then? Dodging questions just makes your points seem far less valid. — ceejayoz 06:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

And what questions am I dodging? You don't know what the facts are. You should research first. CB Brooklyn 06:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I found the connection linking Dr. Wood to this paper: At the upper right of the page you'll see "The first draft of this work can be found here and here." Click on the links and you will see her picture! Compare to picture here. CB Brooklyn 05:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, so someone used her pic as an avatar on DU. I use Peter Gibbons as my avatar....does that mean I'm Ron Livingston?

ASCE protection

The deleted quote from the ASCE:

"CANON 5.

- - ::g. Engineers shall not maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, injure the professional reputation, prospects, practice or employment of another engineer or indiscriminately criticize another's work."

Anybody remember where Jones got his education in Engineering....oh, wait, he didn't. So the threat doesn't apply and your leading implication that the University would have caved to such an empty threat is false. If you want to include the letter, the disclaimer correcting it stays.

--Mmx1 02:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

There's no evidence showing BYU removed those statememnts for any other reason. And it has nothing to do with Jones. It's Parkinson who vioated the ACSE rules. His letter clearly says that. CB Brooklyn 02:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Do I need to put it in all caps?

Engineers shall not maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, injure the professional reputation, prospects, practice or employment of another engineer(emphasis added) or indiscriminately criticize another's work.".

Parkinson can say whatever the hell he wants about any non-engineer. --Mmx1 02:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The guidelines say "another engineer or indiscriminately criticize another's work".

Obviously the one being criticized does not need to be an engineer.

CB Brooklyn 02:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

A weakness of english. The implication is that "another" is a pronoun for "another engineer". Would it make sense the way you're implying? Thta engineers are not to indiscriminately criticize ANYONE's work? They are not allowed to critique books, movies, write amazon reviews, blog that Mission Impossible 3 sucked, or that Britney Spears is a no-talent hack? It's an engineering society, the context is that it relates to professional relationships between engineers....which Jones is not. --Mmx1 02:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a grey area. Certainly the standard rules would also apply (in a moral sense) to physics professors. But the idea that Parkinson removed the insulting statements from BYUs website for any other reason is laughable in itself. I agree the disclaimer about Jones not being an engineer should be included.

CB Brooklyn 02:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Moral sense? Why? The ASCE is a professional organization, like a union or a guild. It's not a church. It makes rules directing professional conduct between its members. Moreover, a physics professor is not "like" an engineer, much as the implication is repeatedly made with respect to Jones. Hell, the engineers and the physicists don't generally get along at my Univerisity.--Mmx1 03:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for being open to discussion and compromise. --Mmx1 03:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

People should understand that this country is on the verge of a (possibly violent) constitutional crisis, and need to get their priorities straight. CB Brooklyn 03:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

?? How is that relevant, and is that a threat? --Mmx1 03:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed blogs

What relevance do general 9/11 blogs have to Steven Jones? It's an article about the man, not his beliefs or for linkfarming to websites in line with his beliefs. --Mmx1 02:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a biography, not Dr. Jones' home page. Pick and choose what you consider the most important links or interviews, but this is not a directory of his media appearances. --Mmx1 02:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

They are NOT "general 9/11 blogs". They are specific to Jones' work. And Jones' specifically mentioned 911Research.WTC7.net as an excellent site that helped HIM, because of all its references. Still, I deleted it as a courteous to you.

CB Brooklyn 03:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, he is free to link all the sites he likes on his web page; but Wiki is not free webspace. If it's not explicitly about him, it doesn't belong here --Mmx1 03:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all, most of the sites deleted were not blog articles.

Second, as the work Jones is doing is extremely important to the future of the USA, not to mention humanity itself, those links are very important.

Any wiki editor using the term "conspiracy theory" with regard to 9/11 instead of looking at the obvious simple evidence is in obvious denial and should NOT be editing these articles.

And I resent your assertion that only people who subscribe to his theories should edit this page. Neither you nor your fellow conspiracy theorists (oh, I used the word again!) WP:OWN this page.--Mmx1 02:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I resent to your childish namecalling. You want me to call you a sheep? That's what you are

CB Brooklyn 02:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The people who should not edit the articles are those who do not look at all the evidence and instead resort to childish namecalling.

CB Brooklyn 02:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

So what are you? An alternative theorist? A "Truthseeker"? How about addressing the proper encyclopedic content of such an article?--Mmx1 02:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

you obviously think Jones is a conspriracy theorist. When the fact is, he's a physics professor who has performed controlled scientific experiments on WTC steel samples. You should not be editing these articles. Get another hobby. Leave these articles to those who can see what's going on. CB Brooklyn 02:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The only people against those links being in the article are those who use terms like "conspiracy theorist" and the such. Such people do not know how to look at all the evidence rationally and therefore should NOT be editing these articles. You wanna edit something? Go here CB Brooklyn 03:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA....watch it. I'm trying to put this article to encyclopedic standards....and so far you've been conceding most of my edits.--Mmx1 03:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No.. you watch it. You wanna put an article in encyclopedic standards? Start with a topic that you take seriously. Here's one!

Stop "cleaning up" articles that you obviously are biased against.

CB Brooklyn 03:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You 9/11 Truth deniars have full reign over the "official story" sites AND the "9/11 conspriracy theory" sites. You, Morton, and the others should leave these other sites alone. CB Brooklyn 03:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me refer you back to WP:OWN or the disclaimer at the bottom: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." This is an encyclopedia, not your blog. If you want to blog, there's blogspot, Google pages, Myspace, and a whole host of other places. --Mmx1 03:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. and that applies to everyone, including YOU. CB Brooklyn 03:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Your edits tonight have nothing to do with "encyclopedic standards". The only reason is because of the scientific evidence on thermite Jones will be revealing soon. How convenient that you and Morton decided to remove those sites today and not last week? CB Brooklyn 03:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Jones will be known mostly for his work in 9/11, not cold fusion or LDS. Therefore the vast majority of his article should be about his 9/11 research. CB Brooklyn 15:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Jones will be known mostly for his 9/11 research because that work gets more attention from the public and the media, not because of the scientific validity behnind it.--71.255.24.115 04:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, what Jones will be known for shouldn't even be considered, as Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. Dancter 04:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

WTC Collapse Hypothesis

I just noticed this--

"How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings? The contradiction is ignored by FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports where conservation of momentum and the fall times were not analyzed. The paradox is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly remove lower-floor material including steel support columns and allow near free-fall-speed collapses."

The citation on that quote is "Harris, 2000"--the date seems unlikely, especially since the attacks weren't until a year later and it cites the 9-11 Commission--anyone have a real date? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.92.58.154 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Some notes

1. I don't revert war.
2. I really feel that this article makes him look more like a crackpot than even mmx would want him to. The links to 911truth and what not detract from everything - they fail WP:RS and all kinds of other things.
3. Unlike P&F, Jones' cold fusion was theoretically predicted. It is imperitive we note this, otherwise it seems like the man is a HABITUAL crank.
4. It is not appropriate to call a paper that MAY be published in the future peer reviewed. We have details on the review - 4 people two physicists. I apologize for my scare quotes and unnamed in my first edit - they were not NPOV.

I look forward to discussing substantive changes to this article. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Think, and I mean really think, about if the article as it standing in my current, cut-down version relays all of the info we REALLY need to get across to the reader, and if the rest of it should go in the article about the alternative collapse theories. Think really hard on it. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)