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Use the closure requests noticeboard to ask an uninvolved editor to assess, summarize, and formally close a Misplaced Pages discussion. Do so when consensus appears unclear, it is a contentious issue, or where there are wiki-wide implications (e.g. any change to our policies or guidelines).

Do not list discussions where consensus is clear. If you feel the need to close them, do it yourself.

Move on – do not wait for someone to state the obvious. In some cases, it is appropriate to close a discussion with a clear outcome early to save our time.

Do not post here to rush the closure. Also, only do so when the discussion has stabilised.

On the other hand, if the discussion has much activity and the outcome isn't very obvious, you should let it play out by itself. We want issues to be discussed well. Do not continue the discussion here.

There is no fixed length for a formal request for comment (RfC). Typically 7 days is a minimum, and after 30 days the discussion is ripe for closure. The best way to tell is when there is little or no activity in the discussion, or further activity is unlikely to change its result.

When the discussion is ready to be closed and the outcome is not obvious, you can submit a brief and neutrally worded request for closure.

Include a link to the discussion itself and the {{Initiated}} template at the beginning of the request. A helper script can make listing easier. Move discussions go in the 'other types' section.

Any uninvolved editor may close most discussions, so long as they are prepared to discuss and justify their closing rationale.

Closing discussions carries responsibility, doubly so if the area is contentious. You should be familiar with all policies and guidelines that could apply to the given discussion (consult your draft closure at the discussions for discussion page if unsure). Be prepared to fully answer questions about the closure or the underlying policies, and to provide advice about where to discuss any remaining concerns that editors may have.

Non-admins can close most discussions. Admins may not overturn your non-admin closures just because you are not an admin, and this is not normally in itself a problem at reviews. Still, there are caveats. You may not close discussions as an unregistered user, or where implementing the closure would need tools or edit permissions you do not have access to. Articles for deletion and move discussion processes have more rules for non-admins to follow.

If you want to formally challenge and appeal the closure, do not start the discussion here. Instead follow advice at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE.

Other areas tracking old discussions

• Misplaced Pages:Requested moves#Elapsed listings
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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 26 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 24 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 93 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 72 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 63 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 54 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 47 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC_Science-Based_Medicine

(Initiated 32 days ago on 7 December 2024) slowed for a while Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 20 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 106 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 84 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

 Closed by editor S Marshall. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  20:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 72 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 63 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 42 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Move request moratorium at Genesis creation narrative

I have just closed a requested move discussion at Talk:Genesis creation narrative#Suggested_move. It was the 12th move discussion on this page since January 2010 (which may be some sort of a record), and the second move discussion in 3 months. I have therefore imposed a 12-month moratorium on further move requests.

I don't recall doing this before, so I am unsure if I should log this somewhere ... which is why I have left a note here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

You did well IMO. Irondome (talk) 01:05, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Good call. I don't think there's a log for this, but am not positive. Miniapolis 01:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse. Right or wrong, the clear fact is that there is no consensus to move, and there probably never will be. Guy (Help!) 01:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

When administrator rights are granted like this by administrators to other administrators, could you guys at least indicate that somewhere? I don't see any place where it says that administrators are allowed to impose a moratorium on conversations on talkpages. This is a wholly new right for the sainted class.

Alternatively, you could have done this as a part of discretionary sanctions, but what are the discretionary sanctions? I have no doubt that administrators like to give themselves new rights to control the community like this, but as long as it's not in WP:ADMIN, I think you guys shouldn't be doing this sort of thing.

If this becomes a thing you guys feel empowered to do, it's invariably going to end up in arbitration. The whole point of Misplaced Pages's consensus model is to encourage discussion. So if discussion is now to be discouraged, then what is there to be done? Note that the discussion was closed "no consensus" which necessarily defaults to the wrong version. You are basically declaring winners by default whether you like it or not. In contrast, WP:RPP protections for one whole year are extremely rare things. Why should a move moratorium be so cavalierly entered?

jps (talk) 07:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

To be clear, I don't think this conversation has ended as I don't think a coherent voice has been heard yet and that's why I'm not convinced that closing the discussion makes any sense. Keep it open for one year, if you like, and then have someone evaluate what happens. But by closing like this, you are just asking for people to stop until May 2, 2014 when they will just pick up where they left off. Why not let the conversation continue. What's the WP:NOTPAPER harm? I think you admins may not like reading such conversations to try to figure out who is right and who is wrong, but that's not a good reason to stop a conversation. It's just not. jps (talk) 07:48, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, those who have a view different from the status quo will see the close and moratorium as a "win" granted to the other side, when clearly there was no consensus. That's not "no consensus to change". There was very strong argument in favour of change. It's just "no consensus". It's an unfortunate quirk of our policies that will now allow those who have "won" to say "You tried to change this and failed", implying that they are right. And that's not at all what has been demonstrated. A brave administrator would not just count votes, but would consider quality of argument and make a ruling. HiLo48 (talk) 08:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The ruling would be that there is no consensus to change. The current title does not provably violate policy. Sure, it's asserted to violate policy, but that's just an opinion and it's not held by people like Jimbo, according to his stated opinion on the matter, so arguing that it is, is futile. I say this as one who strongly prefers the "myth" title. Guy (Help!) 10:53, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

@HiLo48 It's a bit tedious to spend time weighing a discussion in accordance with WP:RMCI#Determining_consensus, and then be told that "a brave administrator would not just count votes, but would consider quality of argument". AGF, please. I am quite willing to go against the numbers where the circumstances justify it. (See for example crowned crane, Chipewyan people, and Hillary Clinton).

I did weigh the arguments, discarded those which were not founded in policy, and was left with a set of good policy-based arguments on both sides. Having judged that both sides had well-founded arguments, the job of a closing admin is explicitly not to make a WP:SUPERVOTE and decide which set of arguments she prefers. The admin's job is to weigh strength of policy-based argument and strength of support for them. In a case such as this, where there are broadly similar levels of support for well-founded policy-based arguments, it would be entirely wrong for an admin to impose their own choice between the two sides, and closures such as that are rightly and properly overturned at move review.

Where there is no consensus, policy is maintain the status quo. In situations such as this, where there is a persistent failure to reach consensus on a choice between two sides, that confers a first-mover advantage. The community may want to consider the notion that in cases such as this of long-term lack of consensus between 2 options, pages could be cycled between the two alternatives; but no such policy exists for now, and WP:TITLECHANGES prioritises stability.

I think that a better way forward would be for the two sides to prepare for the end of the moratorium by planning a structured decision-making process, such as has been used for pending changes (e.g. the 2014 RFC). Breaking the question down and separately assessing consensus on various propositions would be much more informative for all involved, and it is more likely to produce a clear outcome than yet another round of free-form discussion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:44, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I understand your motivation, but there is no indication that drive-by closure and a rude "work it out yourselves, but don't bother me for a year" is the right direction here. I'm happy to start a structured conversation that would not have an outcome, but I'll note that I tried to do just this without a WP:RM and instead others took it upon themselves to claim a WP:RM. So if I wanted to start a discussion about how to start a structured discussion, am I banned from doing that on the talkpage? jps (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

jps, a little more AGF please. This wasn't a "drive-by-closure", and I didn't say "don't bother me for a year". My concern is not for myself, but for the editors who have been dragged into rehashing the same round-in-circles freeform discussion a dozen times in 4 years.

There isn't going to be another discussion for 12 months, so best to leave it for a while. But as you get towards the end of the moratorium, you could start seeking out the editors with whom you most strongly disagree, and start a discussion with them about identifying the issues at stake on both and starting a discussion on how to address those questions, separately. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

User:BrownHairedGirl, you didn't address my question. Am I banned from discussing how to start a structured discussion on the talkpage? jps (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

jps Hmm, "best to leave it for a while" was my attempt to answer your question, but you seem to want it spelled out in very precise terms, so I will try to make it as clear as I can be.

You are banned from starting a substantive discussion for another 12 months. There is no point in dragging editors into a 12-month meta-discussion about what to do next year, so don't start the talks-about-talks now. I was trying not to be too prescriptive about when it might be appropriate to start talks about talks, but if you want a precise time ... I'd say that 1 months before the expiry of the moratorium would be quite enough. That's 2nd April 2015. Is that clear enough? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:17, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thank you, that's quite clear. Just so I am 100% understanding, no one is allowed to discuss moving or renaming that particular article until 2 May 2015 or have meta-discussions about moving or renaming that particular article until 2 April 2015. And how is this to be enforced? Should we come to you every time we see an infraction or report it to this noticeboard? Or should we simply remove the talkpage comment? Or should we archive it with a collapse box? What are the parameters by which the enforcement will occur? jps (talk) 21:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• In practice such moratoriums - 3 months, 6 months, 12 months (most usually 6 months) - are not uncommon in RM closers' instructions. However they are not always of the high quality of BrownHairedGirl's moratorium here. An informal log somewhere would be helpful. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:45, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Shall I fix this? Can you identify any other RM moratoria in place? jps (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd have to have a hunt, a quick request at Talk:RM would probably yield up to a dozen examples. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the need for a centralized log - what would it be used for? In each case the RM moratorium is noted on the article talk page, where any admin about to make a change, or user about to request a change, can see it. Why would someone need to see it elsewise? I think WP:BURO applies here. BMK (talk) 15:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Logging is a good idea because it guarantees transparency in what are often contentious decisions. It encourages a kind of institutional memory which is important when looking at longterm development of a situation. That's why it is done for discretionary sanctions, for example. jps (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if Misplaced Pages can ever find a solution to problems like this where a decision that there is no consensus to change, plus a moratorium on future attempts to change, delivers precisely the result sought by those wanting no change, and is seen by both sides as a win for them? HiLo48 (talk) 22:37, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I also endorse BrownHairedGirl's handling of this issue. Cutting down the pointless move discussions (which are doomed to end as "no consensus," since it always seems to be the same alternate title that's suggested) to once a year is a good idea. May I also add that this talk of "winning" and "losing" has an unfortunate taste of WP:BATTLEGROUND about it. -- 101.117.2.111 (talk) 04:00, 4 May 2014 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Perhaps, but that's just dismissing a real view obviously held by many. Labelling it doesn't change that view. And maybe that repeated alternative is a bloody good one. That it's the same each time probably points to that, rather than it being wrong. Any objective observer would have to admit that those seeking change aren't a bunch of irrational bigots. Dismissing their request because it's the same each time is not helpful. The arguments against are also the same each time. Will you similarly dismiss them? HiLo48 (talk) 18:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As closer, I do not see either side of the discussion is irrational or bigoted. Nor do I see any such suggestion from the IP above. Sure, there was some ILIKEIT/IDONTLKEIT commentary on both sides, but there were also a lot of well-reasoned, policy-based arguments. However, endlessly discussing the same thing without ever reaching a consensus is not a productive use of anyone's time. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:22, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, hence my post beginning "I wonder..." above. Even if arguments are evenly balanced on both sides, what we get from this is a status quo result. That might sound fair, but in fact it's simply one that reflects the thoughts of the side that got in first, and is diametrically opposed to that preferred by a lot of editors with well reasoned arguments. We ARE declaring an absolute winner, when in fact it's been a pretty even fight. The well regraded views of half our editors are now being suppressed by the other half. I wish there was a more even solution. HiLo48 (talk) 21:02, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring on The Zeitgeist Movement

There seems to be edit warring going on at The Zeitgeist Movement. Can someone lock down the article until a discussion can resolve the issue, and/or block the persons involved, if necessary? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 03:40, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Why is it that 107% of all the people in the world whoGAF about the Zeitgeitst bollocks, choose to push it on Misplaced Pages?

That's all of them plus some sockpuppets.

Guy (Help!) 01:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The situation is a bit more complex that the usual one concerning pro-TZM sock/meatpuppetry - see this WP:AN/EW discussion, which should probably be taking place at ANI. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:22, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. The "merge to one cesspool" idea has definite merit. We have enough trouble keeping a lid on conspiracisty bollocks as it is, without the Zeitgeist people adding to it. Guy (Help!) 22:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Brick Like Me

• A request was made to move Brick Like Me (The Simpsons) to replace Brick Like Me. But Brick Like Me is a long orderly succession of edits, and Brick Like Me (The Simpsons) is a disorderly alternation of edit war between text and redirects. Someone reinstated this request as a history-merge, but this history-merge is unsuitable because the two pages are partly WP:Parallel histories. But 2 users keep reinstating this history-merge request. See User talk:Anthony Appleyard#Brick Like Me, User talk:M(e)ister Eiskalt#Brick Like Me. I would like to make the history-merge and satisfy these desires, but that would make a mess: see WP:Parallel histories. What happened in these two Brick Like Me pages was not a cut-and-paste but a copy-and-paste, creating two parallel histories, and to re-unite one of these two histories I would have to cut the other history (that persistent dilemma when tidying up after a content-fork caused by a copy-and-paste). I put a history note in Talk:Brick Like Me. There may have been two to several complete or partial copy-and-pastes between Brick Like Me (The Simpsons) and Brick Like Me, but the usual history-merge process cannot handle that. This dispute needs to be discussed properly somewhere. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:08, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Why not just redirect and protect the redirect? That would leave the messy history in place and the orderly history in place, and would also leave a single article. Guy (Help!) 10:50, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to underline the idea of ViperSnake151 that IS the way to do everything right. But the copy of Djole 555 should be delate because it is still NOT his work. --M(e)ister Eiskalt (talk) 12:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with JzG (Guy). Just fully protect Brick Like Me (The Simpsons) and leave it as a redirect. Canuck 14:54, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
• Make use of the {{copied}} template to document the edit(s) where content was copied from Brick Like Me (The Simpsons) and leave both histories in place. Simple. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
• Support making Brick Like Me (The Simpsons) be a fully protected redirect to the main article. Someone can leave a note on the talk page about where the material came from originally. EdJohnston (talk) 01:45, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

  No, not everyone who takes notes about the view history takes notes about the talk page. Either it is mentioned in the edit summary of the copy OR you make the way of ViperSnake151. The other points are still copyright infringement even if it was copied from a Misplaced Pages page. --M(e)ister Eiskalt (talk) 15:22, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

  You are mistaken - the use of the {{copied}} template fulfills the requirements of the CC-BY-SA/GFDL. A history merge is not required. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:07, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Just so. A simple fix that seems to resolve the stated issue. Guy (Help!) 23:01, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Sock block check please

I've just blocked Robopsychologist (talk · contribs · logs) as a suspected sock puppet of CensoredScribe (talk · contribs · logs), on the basis of the sudden appearance to add "X in fiction" categories and stuff about "ancient astronauts" and algae - compare the latter to CensoredScribe's user page content. The writing style also appears to match. I think it's pretty obvious that it's the same person. Could I get some opinions please as to whether I was right? If I've screwed up, I will offer a full and very public apology to the user in question. Thanks. — Scott • talk 17:00, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed this is likely to be CensoredScribe, and if not then the chances of it being a genuinely new user are close to zero. Guy (Help!) 09:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The "goodbye" to Drmies is particularly telling. BMK (talk) 15:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

RFPP is once more flooded, mops to hand

Another week, another "oh right, RFPP is a thing" reminder. Currently we're at 52 requests pending so we're in need of a little attention over there and probably something else so we don't have to post something at AN every few weeks it happens. tutterMouse (talk) 17:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I took care of a bunch of them. FYI, admins being in short supply is hardly a problem unique to RFPP. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The rest have also been taken care of so thanks to those mucking in. I know admins being in short supply isn't unique to RFPP but would be nice if we could get some admins who'd have a regular look see every 24 hours or so to prevent backlogs of requests for something I see as fairly crucial to the wiki. tutterMouse (talk) 08:53, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Askahrc

I would like an uninvolved admin to notify Askahrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) per WP:ARBPSCI. The user was minimallty active for some time then returned in 2013, since when they have been showing obsessive support of the agendas of Rupert Sheldrake and his supporter/apologist Deepak Chopra. The views of both are way out in the long grass. This user now purports to mediate in the "dispute" between SAS81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (an openly declared media representative for Chopra) and world+dog. Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Askahrc/Archive is interesting too. This user appears to have lost interest in Misplaced Pages then returned after a hiatus to right great wrongs.

SAS81 has engaged in forum shopping because he does not like the sound of the word "no". This is expected and normal under the circumstances. Several users in good standing are counselling him on the Misplaced Pages way of doing things, and this is ongoing. I mention this user only for completeness: I do not, at this time, advocate sanctions against him. Guy (Help!) 22:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Askahrc has already been notified of discretionary sanctions, and indeed has already been sanctioned for harassing users from behind a sockpuppet and for wasting the community's time.

There is a tabled request on him at AE, with "a low bar for reporting newer disruption". JzG, AE is likely a better place for this. I have evidence to submit about the recent continuation of his attacks against me (I was the one who exposed his sockpuppeting/harassing activities). vzaak 01:13, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the cause of this notification. I've been intermittently active (including long hiatuses during the discussion over Sheldrake) for many years and have always tried to keep a neutral, reasonable tone to my contributions. I've never shown support for the agenda of Rupert Sheldrake (I was arguing against the incivility of editors on the page, not for Sheldrake's views) or Deepak Chopra. If you disagree, please show a diff.

I have edited numerous other pages besides Sheldrake (which I haven't touched in months) and Chopra, and was introduced to the Chopra issue independently via the BLP board, where I'd offered to other editors the exact same referencing help as I did for user:SAS81. On Chopra I've been trying to work with other editors to establish a best practice to determine which sources would be most valid and applicable, namely focusing on independent secondary sources. Far from endorsing his agenda, I have argued that many of SAS81's sources should not take priority over existing secondaries. I have been mediating with editors from very different view points and we've been making excellent progress. All of my suggestions have been for a stronger emphasis on reliable sources, not a relaxing of WP:FRINGE.

I know we've had minor misunderstandings in the past, Guy, but I honestly don't see the issue here. Also, what do the SPI's Vzaak keeps pushing against me have to do with this? He got me warned once, then tried it again and was told by an admin that there was absolutely no connection. It's frustrating to try to contribute in good faith and be called "obsessed" over something I've never once spoken in favor of, let alone have editors repeatedly bring up this SPI issue. The Cap'n (talk) 01:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@user:Vzaak, see above about bringing up the SPI (over and over again), but otherwise what "continuing attacks" are you referring to? I've done nothing against you since bringing up my issues about you continually bringing cases against me (1, 2, 3) at AR. I honestly would like nothing more than to leave you alone and vice-versa. Voluntary IBAN?

And yet again, what disruption? I'm mediating a discussion on citing secondary sources, how is that disruptive in any way? Let it go, Vzaak, I don't want to fight with you. The Cap'n (talk) 01:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little unclear about what is happening here. What is the problem actually? All I can add is that the Capn came into help on the BLP noticeboard and chimed in on my COI noticeboard and offered to help mediate. I also do not agree with Guy's assesment that I have a hard time being told 'no'. I was not aware he was in charge I was under the impression that Misplaced Pages is collaborative and Capn appears like a collaborative editor while Guy seems very angry that I am here. Capn has been very helpful in a very difficult situation, I wish there were a few more like him. SAS81 (talk) 02:23, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@Askahrc responded to a request on the BLP notice board and has attempted to mediate what had become a contentious article. His actions and behaviour have been appropriate and neutral, and he has provided a somewhat even tone to a sometimes less than pleasant environment. I see no reason to have brought him here. (Littleolive oil (talk) 02:55, 4 May 2014 (UTC))

@Vzaak: I agree, but I am involved so someone else needs to do it.

@Littleolive oil: No they have not, because he is not "uninvolved" and he also has a significant history of POV-pushing, including sanctions in this exact area. Whoever should mediate (and actually mediation is not necessary, the iussue is just that the Chjopra media machine is trying to buff up the article), it should not and cannot be Askahrc. Guy (Help!) 10:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I do not think that Askahrc (talk · contribs) has the basic level of WP:COMPETENCE required to mediate. This may be due to the Dunning–Kruger effect. Either way, a bizarre and ineffective mediation attempt that will inevitably follow unless he is stopped is just going to create WP:DRAMA for the sake of it. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@JzG: Like anyone, you can submit a case to AE if there is sufficient disruption, with the "low bar" in mind. I haven't followed the recent Chopra events enough to address that. I was alarmed, however, to see Askahrc casting an aspersion on the Chopra talk page. If someone submits an AE I will add to it, otherwise we give WP:ROPE.

However the issue with WP:ROPE is it is already getting long. Askahrc uses a sockpuppet to bully users, then brings an arbcom case about bullying. Askahrc promulgates battleground polemics on-wiki and off-wiki, then brings an arbcom case about battleground behavior. After being sanctioned for wasting the community's time with the first arbcom request, Askahrc submits a second time-wasting arbcom request. After arbitrators tell him to use AE in the first arbcom request, Askahrc brings another arbcom request without using AE (perhaps because there is a tabled AE request on him with a "low bar" for reporting future disruptions). After being caught harassing users with a sockpuppet, Askahrc uses AE and a formal arbcom request as a platform to cast evidence-free WP:ASPERSIONS against the person who caught him, and now after a hiatus Askahrc resumes it on the Chopra talk page. vzaak 14:32, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@Guy. Askahrc had edited the Deepak Chopra article before he responded at the BLP NB? I don't believe so. I have no comment on what is happening on the Chopra article at this time but, I think we can agree to disagree.

I am differentiating between an editor who comes into an article as either an informal mediator or formal mediator per our DR system and one who is attempting to steer to a neutral ground, (Askharc) maintains civility and so far is not pushing an agenda on to the other editors. As an aside, I am always put off and become suspicious when an editor's past is dragged up in a dispute as is happening here as a means to support an attack on that editor. Such an action intended or not dirties the water so we can't see what if any the real issues are at this point in time, on this article. Whether the editor is successful at mediating a situation is not the issue. Mediation with even the most experienced mediators is often unsuccessful in my experience. What is at issue are the allegations made which I believe are unfounded.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC))

Thank you, littleolive oil, I appreciate you weighing in. I've shown numerous diffs documenting what we're working on in Chopra, while I still haven't seen any showing supposed disruption. A few rejoinders:

• @vzaak I cast no aspersions on Chopra, I clarified an editors incongruous mention of SPI, and have backed it up with diffs. Speaking of aspersions, you are repeatedly misrepresenting events to suit your audience (and I think you could fit in your failed AE's "low bar for future disruptions" quote a few dozen more times, but be careful not to bring up "I'm interested in dated diffs of recent misconduct. No such diffs have been submitted here, and as such, I'd decline to act on the request as submitted."). You contradict yourself by saying that when the first arbreq was tabled I never sought the requested AE, then mention me harassing people with an an evidence-free AE. The truth is that I did file an AE as requested, it was filled with diffs of evidence and the admins agreed that the people it was brought against were acting inappropriately and needed to be sanctioned. Finally, you admit that you haven't actually read the progress on the Chopra page, but are apparently just endorsing this AN out of an assumption that anything I'm working on must be disruptive. You got me with one SPI and have been gunning for me since, even arguing with an admin when your second SPI got rejected. Please back off, Vzaak, this is inappropriate behavior.
• @Barney the barney barney, claiming that I have a mental disorder that is typified by gross incompetence, extreme ignorance and even brain damage is a clear violation of WP:NPA, something you've been sanctioned for before. Again, you claim that mediation will inevitably become "bizarre and ineffective" unless I am stopped, without showing any diffs, examples or evidence of my supposedly outlandish behavior, nor of being familiar with the Chopra talk page.
• @JzG, you said "because he is not "uninvolved" and he also has a significant history of POV-pushing, including sanctions in this exact area," which is factually incorrect. I've never worked on the Chopra page before the BLP, I've never been sanctioned for POV-pushing and despite people like Barney (who has misled you before) asserting otherwise, I have never seen a single diff showing any POV-pushing on my part. I chimed in briefly on the Sheldrake page, but pretty much all of my effort there was insisting editors needed to be more civil and stop issuing AN's, AE's and SPI's against the people who disagreed with them. The result was that I've been since hit with AN's, AE's and SPI's. Take what you will from that, but my participation on WP has always been to increase neutrality and sourcing, NOT to push a POV that I don't even agree with.

Basically, I feel like I'm being presented as the boogeyman, but no one has actually presented any evidence of these grave disruptions I'm supposedly involved in. Instead I'm looking at assertions, personal attacks and more assertions. I'm getting really tired of logging in to pursue a hobby and dealing with senseless hostility from the same exact people over and over again. With all due respect to those involved, spend your time making WP better instead of following people around and trying to get them banned. The Cap'n (talk) 17:17, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The only drama I see being caused is by a number of the editors commenting here who keep on pushing this battleground mentality and don't want to drop it. In my COIN, an uninvolved admin even weighed in on the activity of 'skeptics' on the page and mentioning directly that it makes the community look bad. Capn agreed to help mediate in that COI because this admin was asking if there was any uninvolved editors who could help bring a balance. Capn offered. Other editors have PM'd me telling me they don't want to get too involved because of this harassment. In the meantime I'm still getting pinged and one of the editors here (vzaak) who is not even involved in editing the article is bringing up some conspiracy plot they believe either I or capn is involved in. I'd like to offer a solution to this rather bizarre environment. Let's just focus on content. If we do that then problem is solved. SAS81 (talk) 17:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I simply asked why you brought me into it, and the answer you proffered didn't make sense. I had a right to ask. I didn't say you were part of a conspiracy.

Regarding your concern about "skeptics" looking bad, the issue is that Askahrc had previously been sockpuppeting in the role of a "skeptic" harassing users and issuing threats in an effort to make "skeptics" look bad. On the Deepak Chopra page, he has continued his effort to discredit me as retribution for catching him sockpuppeting. This behavior is not acceptable.

Incidentally, I have never called myself a "skeptic" and I don't associate with any such groups. The primary problem I see with the "Guerrilla Skeptics" is their stupid name. If a group of regular, non-misbehaving Misplaced Pages editors call themselves "The Misbehaving Misplaced Pages Editors", and then they roll their eyes when people accuse them of misbehaving, that is stupid. vzaak 18:20, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• Barney's statement suggesting Askhahrc is suffering from a mental disorder is unacceptable and unconscionable and most especially in the context of this discussion.(Littleolive oil (talk) 18:38, 4 May 2014 (UTC))

Littleolive oil (talk · contribs) has apparently taken askahrc (talk · contribs)'s bizarre accusations at face value without clearly reading what I originally wrote. To clarify, I have not, never have, and never will accuse anyone, especially askahrc (talk · contribs), of being mentally ill. I do not really care what illnesses askahrc (talk · contribs) has. What I do accuse askahrc (talk · contribs) of is rank incompetence, contrary to WP:COMPETENCE, and lacking even the basic competence to understand that he's not competent. This is what Dunning–Kruger effect says - read the article here!). This is with great justification as outlined by Vzaak (talk · contribs).

Actually, I believe I was being extremely generous in accusing askahrc (talk · contribs), and assuming good faith that he's not just a thoroughbred troll, just completely incompetent.

I believe this is the worst case I have ever seen of a user falsely whining "personal attacks" when confronted with basic damning evidence against his anti-consensus behaviour. In this I assume that in good faith Askahrc (talk · contribs) is not deliberately lying, but just not competent enough to distinguish fair commentary on his capabilities from personal attacks. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:51, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I'm familiar with both the condition and what you wrote. You suggested here an editor may be suffering from what is a mental illness, "This may be due to the Dunning–Kruger effect." I assume now you did not mean to suggest mental illness. You might consider retracting the comment. I might add that suggesting another Misplaced Pages editor is completely incompetent is a lot to take on oneself. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC))

Since no uninvolved admins have weighed in and this has become yet another tit-for-tat squabble among the usual suspects, I suggest this be closed. If there is evidence of misconduct, present the diffs at AN/I, I'm not sure why this dispute was brought to AN. Liz 21:19, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@Little olive oil (talk · contribs) - the Dunning–Kruger effect is not a mental illness. Please stop displaying your ignorance by claiming that it is or might be construed as such.

It is also usually considered best if a "mediator" in a dispute has the confidence of all parties involved. Since Askahrc (talk · contribs) clearly doesn't have the confidence of those broadly as "sceptics", it is clear that he can't and shouldn't be getting involved. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Null edits

Could someone make null edits to the pages in Category:Misplaced Pages XHTML tag replacing templates? They are all full- or template-protected. After this the category should be deleted by using the "click here to delete" link on the page. Armbrust 00:41, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done -- Diannaa (talk) 02:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Admin needed at Microsoft Windows

 Done The article is supposed to be about MS Windows, but the whole thing is currently reading (at least on my machine) as a thing related to WP:HATNOTE. Not sure what happened there, but it definitely needs a looksee, and one form an admin because the page is protected at the moment. 24.92.104.80 (talk) 02:20, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Everything looks normal to me. Please try refreshing your cache or purging the page. -- Diannaa (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

That was because of an edit to Template:Rellink, now fixed. As Diannaa says, purging should fix any articles that are still using the broken version. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 04:55, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Alexa Olvera

Hello. This article has been speedy delete in es-wiki and fr-wiki, as encyclopedic irrelevant and hoax. I notice that here was placed a template proposing deletion, but instead an IP replace it with a reference template. In my home wiki it´s not allowed to do that, but I'm not familiar with the processes in the english wiki, so I prefer to inform about here. Regards, —Frei sein (Talk to me!) 06:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC) PS: Looking more close at the revision history, the page has already been propose several times for deletion and every time the template has been change or eliminated by the user who created the article or an IP. Please, an admin need to look at the article.

It is permitted to remove a BLP-prod template if a reference is provided that verifies what the article says. The reference added here does not. Rather than simply replace the BLP-prod, I will nominate this at WP:Articles for deletion. JohnCD (talk) 07:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Done, see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alexa Olvera. Thank you, Frei sein. JohnCD (talk) 08:13, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As I said there, this is borderline CSD#G3. Not sure what that says about the editor. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:47, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I reckon, let sleeping hoaxers lie, unless he makes a nuisance of himself by removing the AfD template or vandalising the discussion; then block as WP:NOTHERE. His Spanish block is a username block: Viola la política de nombres de usuario. His first name may be related to pedo = a fart, pedorrero = one given to farting, which my dictionary marks as tabu, but I can't make anything of his second. My wife thinks it may mean something rude in Basque. JohnCD (talk) 17:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Skookum1 again again

I've reverted the collapse at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive838#Skookum1 again; closure may be appropriate, as we weren't getting anywhere, but the closure header is not a possible interpretation of what needs to be done, even by Skookum1, himself. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:53, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Forgeten vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• I found forgeten vandalism on this article. Some vandal with username Feezo removed category, links to other articles and he deleted part of article with informations about new series. I cannot edit this page because it protected.--Lisa Shertoon :-P (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Vandal? You're sure? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:24, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

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