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Category:Pseudoscience again

Every so often (see archives) the issue of whether to use category:pseudoscience comes up. We have specific standards for that at WP:FRINGE/PS, and acupuncture isn't "generally considered pseudoscientific by the scientific community". To show it is, we'd need a source so indicating, i.e. meeting WP:RS/AC. That logic has been accepted for several years, for this article and others (including alternative medicine).

Continuing from here, QuackGuru said, re Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience: "You haven't given a reason to use a better RS than that. The source is RS compliant. We can expand the article with the source." My response to that is: sure we can use the article according to its weight, but since it doesn't meet WP:RS/AC we can't use it to justify categorizing as pseudoscience. Also, Williams is dated (2000) and (IIRC) the entry on acupuncture is far from unequivocal. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:07, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

If you want us to take this seriously, I think you need to find some sources that acupuncture is a proven medical intervention for something more than a little lower back pain. Perhaps some sources that show that meridians and that can actually be found in the body, some sources that relate sticking pins in somebody to, you know, curing illness. Till you do, it is pseudoscience. Roxy the dog (resonate) 02:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

We don't have to meet your standards, we have to meet WP:FRINGE/PS and WP:RS/AC. (We had an ArbCom case, WP:ARB/PS, in part to clarify this exact issue.) Show me how under those policies, we can use category:pseudoscience. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no policy or guidance which says WP:RS/AC is needed before a category can be assigned, that is a spurious argument (by which, BTW, hardly anything could ever be categorized). Acupuncture is "obvious pseudoscience"; RS from the portion of academia which considers pseudoscience says so, and Misplaced Pages should follow RS. Or are there sources saying meridians and qi are part of real science? Alexbrn 06:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Addressing your points in turn:

• (1) How else are you going to determine whether something is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community", besides RS/AC?
• (2) Scientists (as opposed to many skeptics) are sparing when labelling things as pseudoscience. We follow the science.
• (3) "Obvious pseudoscience" is for tiny-minority things that have virtually no RS commentary and no following. Otherwise astrology would go under "obvious", but it doesn't. That's because proposals that "have a following" go under either "generally considered pseudo" or "questionable science". (See alsoWP:ARB/PS)
• (4) Show me MEDRS -- which we follow for scientific claims -- demonstrating that acu is generally considered science by the sci community. How many of the MEDRS commenting on acu call it pseudoscience?
• (5) Acupuncture isn't only meridians and qi. Those articles can go under category:pseudosci since they fall under vitalism. Acupuncture includes other facets/hypotheses, such as evidence for efficacy. If researchers thought acu, on the whole, to be pseudoscience, they wouldn't keep studying it. Instead, the voices we hear arguing that "acu is pseudoscience and therefore shouldn't be studied" are scattered throughout the skeptical blogosphere, most of which isn't RS let alone MEDRS. (The literature also addresses the "reasonable amount of debate" criterion.)

As I said earlier, read the archives. What I'm saying has long been accepted by most editors. The upshot is that under current policy category:pseudoscience cannot be populated as much as you think it should, and that's because categories are unambiguous (cf. WP:CLT#Disadvantages of a category. So what? There are plenty of other ways to convey the idea. --Middle 8 (talk) 09:37, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

In answer:

1. We look at what RS says which has considered the question.
2. See 1 - yes, pseudoscientific determination is a specialist area.
3. Is there any serious source (let alone serious person) claiming qi and meridians are really science? They are obviously pseudoscience.
4. MEDRS is for biomedical claims. Categorization of a system of thought is not biomedical.
5. We need to follow the sources rather then reason out for ourselves what the whole/part relationship is. The point about it being studied legitimizing it is just wrong: researchers study bollocks all the time. Just look here !!

Alexbrn 09:45, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

@Alexbrn on above points:

1. That's how you get confirmation bias. It's like googling for which politicians have "considered the question" of whether Obama should be impeached. You don't get a random sampling, or consensus of a non-self-selected group, that way.
2. Really? According to whom? What is the name of this specialty, and what qualifications are necessary to practice it? Note that a pubmed search for "acupuncture" and "pseudoscience" gives a single (and silly) hit, so this specialty must be rarefied indeed not to have its literature indexed by Medline!
3. Sure, but still, "Citation needed". That's why astrology (of all things) doesn't go under "obvious", at FRINGE/PS (and this, from which it sprang). The exception for "obvious pseudoscience" is made for extremely fringe topics that lack RS.
4. See #1. If you want to know what is "generally considered science by the scientific community", you have to meet RS/AC. (Which source would probably meet the looser criteria of MEDRS).
5. See #4 -- those sources are what we follow. WP:BURDEN. Generalizing from part to whole is your OR. We're talking about unambiguously calling something pseudoscience: that's what categorization is (per both FRINGE/PS and here, #8). Topics like acupuncture are handled by, e.g., List of topics characterized as pseudoscience, with annotation. More common sense: When groups like the NHS, NIH, American Cancer Society and WHO give even qualifed endorsements of acupuncture -- and while there are positive findings in reviews (unlike with homeopathy) -- WP should not be unambiguously calling it pseudoscience. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Back at you:

1. That's politics, with its own crazy dynamics. We're interested here in science & scholarship. To find out what experts think, on this as on any scholarly topic, we look at RS. Most doctors are shruggies and so say nothing.
2. We'd use PubMed for biomedical information; what we need for this topic is experts in topics like human understanding of science, the sociology of science, etc. This new category has some good/relevant people in it.
3. You can stop after "Sure" :-) It's obvious it's obvious.
4. I've covered this before, and won't repeat myself. Applying this invented rule would mean de-categorizing Homeopathy and much else.
5. Again, we follow the sources - from which there is no doubt. Or, have you got counter-sources arguing that acupuncture is a real "science"? Alexbrn 10:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

@Alexbrn Please excuse me for bailing on point-counterpoint; my long comment below ("Why acupuncture is a grey area, per RS") covers most of it. I don't agree with, but for the sake of argument do address, your preference for weighting individual RS. And no, of course I don't have sources defending TCM "theory" as science -- this is low-hanging fruit for critics; try swatting at the higher ones -- or saying acu as a whole is science. What I do have are very strong RS establishing that acu is in a grey area, with mixed elements of pseudo (qi etc.) and science (falsifiability, efficacy). These are enough to establish the "grey area" thing as a significant enough POV to preclude "generally considered pseudoscience". In a way, this has been a fun exchange, other than the lost productivity, and the realization that none of this would have even come up had I not poked a hornet's nest. :-/   :-) --Middle 8 (talk) 19:03, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

The more relevant guideline is Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Articles. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:11, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

No, the most relevant guideline (which comes out of WP:ARB/PS and NPOV) is the one I mentioned, WP:FRINGE/PS. How do I know that? Read the last sentence of WP:PSCI). But of course the one you mention also applies, especially the parts about NPOV and VER. Hence WP:FRINGE/PS and WP:RS/AC, respectively. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Acupuncture is widely regarded as containing some kernel of truth enveloped in a lot of pseudoscientific thinking. (for example, see "A Beginner's Guide to Scientific Method". We are making a dis-service to readers by removing categories that are supported by our guidelines.

In google books and google scholar there are lots of sources with interesting takes on the matter --Enric Naval (talk) 11:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

@Enric Naval: I know that there are all kinds of sources calling acupuncture pseudoscience, but per WP:FRINGE/PS we need at least one that reliably shows the opinion of the scientific community at large (cf. WP:RS/AC). It's a matter of apples and oranges... --Middle 8 (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

@Alexbrn and Enric Naval: WP:FRINGE/PS is exactly the relevant policy for deciding whether a topic is appropriately classified as pseudoscience, and if the topic has a significant following -- even astrology! -- we don't say it's "obvious pseduoscience". See findings 14-18 of the ArbCom case: Misplaced Pages:ARB/PS#Serious_encyclopedias. If pseudoscience demarcation were as obvious as you say, it wouldn't have gone before the ArbCom. More later on above; anyway, sounds like we may need a request for clarification. --Middle 8 (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Arbcom doesn't rule in content issues, and their decisions are not binding for policies nor guidelines. And you are still referring to the wrong guideline.....

How about these sources:

• "Science cannot be distinguished from pseudoscience simply on the basis of the results each produces (...) even if it turns out that something in acupuncture theory is right or even on the right track, the theory will remain an artifact of pseudoscientific thinking until it can be confirmed, modified, or rejected on the basis of controlled experimentation." (emphasis on the original) Stephen Carey (1 January 2011). A Beginner's Guide to Scientific Method. Cengage Learning. pp. 123–. ISBN 1-111-30555-2.
• "While used for centuries in Eastern cultures, alternative medicines are classified as pseudoscience because they have not been subjected to the same level of rigorous experimental designs as used in the medical profession. Acupuncture, as shown in figure 7.1, (...) To date, there is not significant evidence to support the claim that acupuncture helps any ailment. (...) The holistic-based outlook for curing places these alternative practitioners at odds with the science-minded ANA (American Medical Association). (...) The public continues to flock to these cures despite the lack of data in their support. Another pseudoscience with roots anchored in our science history is astrology." Peter Daempfle (2013). Good Science, Bad Science, Pseudoscience, and Just Plain Bunk: How to Tell the Difference. Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 112–114. ISBN 978-1-4422-1726-3.
• "Medical researchers often have little scientific interest in acupuncture because its theory depends on nonscientific notions such as vital energy. (...) Government research funds are limited because the scientific community remains skeptical of acupuncture theory and the validity of its method." Merck (14 December 2011). The Merck Manual Home Health Handbook. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-118-17123-3.
• "(...) do not imply that drawing the boundary between science and non-science is an easy or straightforward task. For instance, the practice of acupuncture has a 'scientific' rationale in China, but in the west it remains a curious empirical technique at best." Willy Østreng (2010). Science Without Boundaries: Interdisciplinarity in Research, Society and Politics. University Press of America. pp. 10–. ISBN 978-0-7618-4830-1.
• "Why the Study of Pseudoscience Should Be Included in Nature of Science Studies (...) Believing in something like chiropractic or acupuncture really can help relieve pain to a small degree and for a short period of time, but many related claims of medical cures by these pseudosciences are bogus. By now it should be clear that belief and its resulting placebo effect can be a very important tool in the pseudoscience toolkit, specially where pain relief is involved. (...) Willingness and ability to critically analyze one's belief regarding pseudosciences like ID and chiropractic and astrology and parapsychology and acupuncture and magnetic healing and so on should be an important part of science literacy." Myint Swe Khine (18 September 2011). Advances in Nature of Science Research: Concepts and Methodologies. Springer. pp. 103, 105. ISBN 978-94-007-2457-0.
• "Whole 'disciplines' (as their followers would call them) have been rejected as pseudo-sciences, from astrology to scientology. Some of these disciplines were regarded as sciences in one period, only to be rejected as unscientific in another. Chinese medicine, for instance, including acupuncture, was taken seriously by European doctors in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. However, when western medicine was defined as scientific, alternative medicines were rejected. The European interest in acupuncture first 'subsided' and then became 'submerged'. It was only in the late 1960s and the 1970s that an interest in this technique revived in the West." Peter Burke (17 January 2012). A Social History of Knowledge II: From the Encyclopaedia to Misplaced Pages. Polity. pp. 152–. ISBN 978-0-7456-5043-2.

--Enric Naval (talk) 09:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

@Enric Naval: Well, the ArbCom did rule on this particular issue, probably to settle endless debates over NPOV, and it was by consensus incorporated into NPOV (then NPOVFAQ, and now FRINGE). And yes, WP:FRINGE/PS is exactly the right guideline, although the other one applies too. It's a special case. From WP:NPOV#Fringe_theories_and_pseudoscience (italics mine): "See Misplaced Pages's established pseudoscience guidelines to help with deciding whether a topic is appropriately classified as pseudoscience." --Middle 8 (talk) 09:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Cool, because WP:FRINGE/PS says: "Generally considered pseudoscience: (...) may be categorized as pseudoscience.". --Enric Naval (talk) 09:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, duh! That's what this whole thread is about - whether acu falls under "obvious...", "generally considered.." or "questionable...". Please re-read the thread. --Middle 8 (talk) 11:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) @Enric Naval, and generally: Whether or not efficacy is part of demarcation is an interesting question. Here's an article on richarddawkins.net: "New Study Exposes Acupuncture As Pseudoscience" -- that says a lack of efficacy (in the study cited) is exactly what suggests acu is pseudoscience. On Dawkins' blog! So effectiveness and pseudoscience are tied together in some people's minds.

Opinions on demarcation vary, which is why on WP we write facts about opinions rather than inferring opinions -- like, e.g., "qi is obviously pseudoscientific, so acu in general must be as well". WP's standards for unambiguously calling something pseudoscience (which is what categorization is) are laid out in WP:FRINGE/PS, and they require us to find out whether or not it's generally held in the sci community that a topic is pseudoscience.

Enric, did you see my comment about apples and oranges? The sources you posted above are fine as far as they go, and we can use them, but not for this purpose: they don't tell us about general opinion. Do you really think that 5 more, or 10 more, hits from Google scholar is going to settle that question? Alexbrn suggests looking to RS's that have "considered the question", but that's likely to give skewed results, just as most Congressmen who have spoken about whether Obama should be impeaced tend to be in favor of it.

But let's step back here and remember that we're really only talking about category:pseudoscience here. That's the only thing connected with FRINGE/PS and unambiguous depiction. Everything else in article space stays the same.

Sure, qi and meridians are archaic and not to be taken seriously, but that doesn't mean we can or should say the same about acupuncture as a whole. Maybe we will someday: the NHS is a source much closer to what we need, and they call homeopathy pseudoscience in all but name -- and that's a relatively recent development. Compare that with the tone and substance of their pages on acupuncture, which describe traditional beliefs (without bothering to bash them) and then say that some scientists and acu'ists believe there may be some neuromuscular mechanism. They also describe a spectrum of scientific views on efficacy -- which, cf. Dawkins' blog, can go to demarcation -- and mention disagreements over study design. This is all consistent with a "grey zone" of demarcation, "gateway woo", not as obviously bogus on the whole as other alt-meds. The literature is obviously in flux with respect both to efficacy and mechanism. It would be misleading to depict acu as unambiguously pseudoscientific -- at least today -- unless we had a solid, sci-consensus source, because there are plausible arguments pro and con, and we're just guessing at general opinion. But again, with proper annotation, we can/should/do cover RS's mentioned in this thread. --Middle 8 (talk) 11:11, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Middle8, but I think that those sources are more than enough for "generally considered pseudoscience". There are a lot of interesting caveats and you are free to write them into the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Those "interesting caveats" go directly to NPOV. Remember Misplaced Pages:Categorization#Articles? (itals mine) "Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate." --Middle 8 (talk) 12:15, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not controversial because the general opinion of scientists is that it's pseudoscience. I have provided several sources saying so.

And you haven't provided any source saying otherwise.

Where is the controversy? A category becomes controversial when an editor makes a lot of noise in the talk page? Even if he doesn't support his position with any source? --Enric Naval (talk) 13:34, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no controversy. Unfortunately, Middle 8 can't let go of his COI. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 18:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Woof! (equally in-depth comment, minus the ad hominem) Stay tuned for below where I will demolish your assertion. --Middle 8 (talk) 18:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Why acupuncture is a grey area, per RS

@Enric Naval (and all) -- In turn: (1) You're putting the cart before the horse with your assertion that it's noncontroversial; the general opinion of scientists is what we're trying to establish. Your sources are the opinions of the authors, which we must weigh alongside other sources.

(2) Sure I can provide good sources.

• Michael Shermer, in a book edited by Massimo Pigliucci and M. Boudry (2013), classifies acupuncture as "borderlands science", in between science and pseudoscience. (cough WP:FRINGE/PS cough) He also says demarcation depends on a variety of factors, including attempts to test it. Shermer and Pigliucci are heavy hitters and this is the best source so far.
  
• Here's another name we've seen, Beyerstein, who also puts acu in a "grey area" of disciplines that are "clearly not pseudoscientific in their entirety". He says it's "plagued by a mix of pseudoscience with reliable research". Its "its traditional explanation must be placed firmly in the category of pseudoscience", but it also "undoubtedly works in some people as an analgesic."
  
• Whoa, now here is a seriously ass-kicking source publication: The Age of Expert Testimony, from a workshop of the United States National Research Council (see also here). From pp.17-18:

The NRC source goes on to say that refutability is an important criterion in demarcation, and discusses further caveats in demarcation.
I'm sure there are more sources along the whole spectrum, but the weight of these, plus similar ones (just google-book acu and "demarcation", "gray area" etc.), is enough to balance others above, and establish a lack of general agreement about acu's demarcation. Which places it "firmly" in a grey area, a.k.a. "questionable science".

(3) Controversy? See #2, meets NPOV! We've already established that, for some sources, testability (cf. Popper) and efficacy go to demarcation, and that acupuncture -- almost uniquely among alt-meds -- is testable, and actually has some good evidence for efficacy (some here, not complete or balanced, but indicative).
So here are some BIG group statements on efficacy, all at least partly positive: NHS, American Cancer Society, National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke. Heavy hitters indeed, far outweighing any individual source given so far. And we know that scupuncture is called "gateway woo" and "grey area" and "borderlands", etc., all of which go straight to "questionable science" under FRINGE/PS.

Are we done yet? Remember, this has little practical implication other than no category:pseudoscience -- and of course, not misleading our readers. --Middle 8 (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Good find in the Shermer/Pigliucci book! This looks like a considerable complicator of a straightforward "pseudoscience" classification (I am less convinced by the other sources, and the invocation of effectiveness testing is irrelevant IMO). I am glad we are now looking at RS. In the light of this new source I think I am now tending towards being neutral as to whether we categorize acupuncture as PS or not (though the PS basis should be clear in the article text). What do others think? Alexbrn 19:02, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks ... Just to be clear, the reason for the efficacy stuff is that Shermer/Pigliucci (among others mentioned, e.g. Beyerstein) list it as a criterion for demarcation:

• "Since membership in these categories is provisional, it is possible for theories to be moved and evaluated with changing evidence." (pp.205-206)

No doubt about it, evidence for efficacy can be a deciding factor in dermarcation. --Middle 8 (talk) 19:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC) edited, Middle 8 (talk) 09:59, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Obvious Pseudoscience still trumps any of the Acuapologists in this talk page. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 23:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

You are appallingly ignorant if you think Shermer and Pigliucci, or any of the sources I just cited are acuapologists. --Middle 8 (privacy • talk) 12:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

The article covers qui/meridians that are obvious pseudoscience, with flawed studies that are bad science, with rigorous studies that are good science. Adding the category is unfair to one part of the article, removing it is unfair to other part. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

It is a strange brew. Same idea as chiropractic being a mix, cf. Brangifer's comments on that talk page. (Now let's see if any of our shoot-from-the-hip editors label that guy a chiroapologist.) I honestly think the solution is to use the category only on the topic pages where it clearly applies and use article space to explain the rest. There is also a problem with overuse of the term, insofar as it muddies the waters -- conflating really flagrant pseudoscience with mixed/borderline stuff is a good way to make people doubt demarcation altogether. It doesn't make sense to put the whole of acupuncture in the same boat as ID and global warming pseudoscience, without explanation. You can explain in article space but not in category space. --Middle 8 (privacy • talk) 12:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Acupuncture has elements that are clearly pseudoscientific, qi, meridians and even points are up for debate. It is being seriously investigated as a non-pseudoscientific treatment for, at minimum, pain and nausea. I would agree that while it is not purely pseudoscientific, the aspects that are strongly so merits the category. This should be dealt with by having a section that discusses pseudoscientific aspects of it. There are numerous sources to expand such a section. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

@WLU - I agree we can address V RS's discussing pseudoscience in the article. On your categorization: do you think that your logic squares with WP's demarcations in WP:FRINGE/PS? That is, acu has to go under either "generally considered" or "questionable"; "obvious" is for tiny fringe areas with minimal following, which is why even astrology doesn't go there. Is acupuncture, on the whole, generally considered pseudoscientific by the scientific community? There is no sci-consensus level source (such as an academy of sciences) commenting on the question; among individual commentators, there's a range of opinion, and those who see demarcation as a fuzzy rather than bright line (which is the nuanced view most academics take) seem to put acu in the fuzzy area. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 05:35, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

This is not clear that acupuncture is pseudoscience. You are correct. QuackGuru (talk) 05:50, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I think we can use common sense and recognize that the categorization of acupuncture as "pseudoscience" is accurate in several important ways, particularly in how its effectiveness is explained by many, many practitioners and even researchers. Since the categories on wikipedia do not allow for this distinction, we must choose to either use the category, or not. I think that until there is a sea change in the general community to drop the ideas of qi, acupuncture points, meridians and "energy", the use of "pseudoscience" is quite accurate, and the category should stay. It is a second-best option, the best option would be to have a way of alerting readers to the nuances of the category - but we can't really do that.

Certainly any subpages on qi and acupuncture points should be unambiguously labelled as pseudoscience, in the same way creationism is pseudoscience. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 07:23, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Certainly agree re appropriate subpages. I don't know if we're quite there with acupoints, but qi and stuff, sure.

Alerting readers to the nuances of the categorization is the rub. See WP:CAT#Articles:

"Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate."

(See also WP:BLPCAT.) I think it can be fairly said that depicting acupuncture, on the whole, as unambiguously pseudoscientific would be controversial. Scroll up a bit to where Shermer, among other skeptics, says acupuncture is borderline (precisely because it's a mix: demarcation depends on multiple factors), and not unambiguously pseudoscientific. That sounds like FRINGE/PS's "questionable science". Category space doesn't allow the nuances to be explained, but article space certainly does, in lots of ways. It's not that big a deal, really, but I think it's misleading, particularly compared to other pseudoscientific topics. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 09:37, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

It could go either way - I think the way to avoid protracted discussion is to follow RS (on the topic of pseudoscience) and the fact that Shermer wavers in his categorization is enough for me to waver too. Alexbrn 09:51, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

• I have to agree with Middle 8 over here. The grey area begins with the question of whether acupuncture is a placebo or not. There is considerable evidence proving that it is not a placebo. If I may quote from a mainstream medical textbook for physiology students:

"......Because the Chinese were content with anecdotal evidence for the success of AA (acupuncture analgesia), this phenomenon did not come under close scientific scrutiny until the last several decades, when European and American scientists started studying it. An impressive body of rigorous scientific investigation supports the contention that AA really works (that is, by a physiologic rather than a placebo/psychological effect)..."

— Human Physiology: From Cells to Systems (2013)

If anyone disagrees, I respectfully ask that you cite a serious medical textbook or review (prefably the most convincing one) that supports your particular view. -A1candidate (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Textbooks are good MEDRS's, but not the only ones; still, the sources for efficacy do weigh, assuming you think efficacy matters in demarcation. That's the thing about it.... some (like you, Shermer also) say efficacy is a critical factor; others say something can be pseudoscientific whether or not it's effective. There are multiple demarcation criteria, some of which are multifactorial, many of which are fuzzy. Some topics obviously fall outside the fuzzy area(s); it's hard to see how this does. Calling acu pseudoscience outright is like calling pot a hard drug. Which of course recalls the "gateway woo" designation for acu, and even that implies threshold-ness. The only way acu is for sure pseudoscience is if one accepts a single bright line for demarcation. Which isn't what most scholars seem to do... (cough RS cough). --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 10:40, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, so it's lucky for us we can leave the complicated weighing-up to the RS pseudoscience experts, and then just: use their work. Alexbrn 11:07, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much my point (hence the fuzzy), though it does depend on how you demarcate this expertise, and I'm still dubious about this. If it's a real "specialty" then it should involve something... specific. Shouldn't it? An advanced degree in the sciences or medicine or philosophy or history is probably necessary. What else? Passing WP:N and having an opinion? --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 12:46, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

e/c Are you guys all starting to agree that sticking pins in people to cure them might not be Pseudoscience? Yea, right. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 11:09, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I would categorize it as PS (and wouldn't argue with this article being so categorized). However, as far as Misplaced Pages goes we need to take a strategic view and hold the line of allowing the category to flow from RS on pseudoscience. If Shermer wants it to be "borderland" rather than PS, then that's enough of a complication for me to say: "Meh" ... it is, after all, only a category: It is important OTOH that the pseudoscientific aspects of acupuncture are clear in the article text. That's where I am anyway. Alexbrn 11:21, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Agree, content here is about more than just showing up on the talk page with an opinion. The fact that we're an encyclopedia and use sources 'n stuff is... relevant. Have you looked at Brittanica's acu article? It doesn't have a "What Skeptics Say" section. What Scientists Say is weirdly considered enough. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 12:46, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I guess Roxy adhere more to the Petr Skrabanek line (that we mention), that "ideas should be rejected out-of-hand that lacked a testable hypothesis". (Echoed by David Gorski in this video where he makes the case that CAM has blindsided evidence-based medicine). Other critics, such as Ernst, are totally invested in the evidence-based approach, thinking this is the way to go and supposing that once good trials have been designed, acupuncture will be shown to be ineffective - while we have to bide our time for now and report what the "flawed" trials say. Both "skeptic" approaches exist, and Misplaced Pages being encyclopedic will cover them both, but it does complicate the pseudoscience categorization ... Alexbrn 13:26, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Or they can be the same thing (efficacy being what you test, as opposed to whether qi exists,). There are all kinds of criteria depending on whom you ask, including the view that demarcation is impossible (cf. the NRC panelist above, who echoes the views of some philosophers). (Roxy's view? Who knows. He's indicated the he doesn't consider Cochrane reviews or Ernst's reviews of them to be gold-standard MEDRS/EBM sources, and that he considers Shermer, Pigliucci et. al. either "acuapologists" or irrelevant, so we know he's given these matters a certain degree of attention... Look, a squirrel!) --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 16:15, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The bigger point, though, is that the range of RS views, and the inherently mixed bag that acupuncture is, indicate a lack of general agreement. There's that, and WP:CAT#Articles seems pretty clear that the preference is to avoid categorization in these cases. I can't think of anything more to say and I agree this is getting distracting. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 16:42, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The aspects of acupuncture that are pseudoscientific are not point selection or even whether or not it's placebo. The points that are unambiguously pseudoscientific are the explanations for how it "works" - the continued claims, cited in nearly every damned article, about the manipulation of a nonexistent energy that flows and stagnates in lines and points. That is utter nonsense, and that is by far the most salient and unambiguous piece of pseudoscience that is involved. The fact that there is a pretty vigorous debate over whether it does a damned thing is totally unnecessary for the purposes of this discussion. The entire section on theory is what causes acupuncture to be considered pseudoscience. The debate over efficacy is a debatable cherry on top, and one whose veracity is redundant and unnecessary to the discussion of the PS category. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 22:35, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your view on what the single most important criterion for demarcation is, and your conclusion. We have RS with varying (and multiple) criteria and varying conclusions, e.g. Michael Shermer's recent book chapter on demarcation: . --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 06:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

After reviewing this matter again, I think User:WLU has made convincing arguments the cat can stay. QuackGuru (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Again, I respectfully ask that you or anyone else cite a serious medical textbook or review (prefably the most convincing one) that supports your particular view of keeping the category. -A1candidate (talk) 08:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

We need to consult sources which directly address the pseudoscience question. Alexbrn 08:50, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

A review or medical textbook would make absolutely no sense at all since that would be concerned about efficacy, not concerns about the purported explanations. Works on demarcation make the most sense. Qi and meridians are clearly pseudoscientific. You may think otherwise, but you are wrong. Your google search you used leads to a form of confirmation bias. You sought after demarcation issues instead of searching acupuncture pseudoscience. Book by Peter Daempfle discusses it in relation to pseudoscience. Here he describes it as having "pseudoscientific origins". : "Although many acupuncture practioners assume the existence of such meridians no convincing scientific evidence has been found in support of their existence". is an encyclopedia of pseudoscience and discusses acupuncture and "pseudoscientific trappings of yin and yang and the notion of an energy flow or life force". IRWolfie- (talk) 10:58, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I respectfully ask you to look at the sources found here. Again, it is an imperfect situation because we can't label certain sections as pseudoscience, but on balance it makes sense to include the category until there is good evidence that these pseudoscientific explanations are abandoned by the majority of practitioners and researchers. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:11, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

@ IRWolfie - Depending on the search terms, sure we'll get different hits. We want good RS's; it doesn't matter how we find them. Why would we not include "demarcation" among our terms when that's the exact question? Such a search turned up the Shermer book chapter, in the 2013 Pigliucci book, which is an excellent source -- these guys have specific background that make them excellent RS's for demarcation. A provisional observation: scholarly sources tend to use fuzzier demarcation, and note that a "grey area" exists. This is a significant view (NPOV) ==> acu is not "generally considered pseudscience by the sci community" ==> per WP:FRINGE/PS, it falls under "questionable science", which means we shouldn't use the category. (The other guideline relevant to categorization, WP:Categorization#Articles, makes a very similar point about NPOV.) All of that follows if we agree that the conclusions of RS carry (a lot) more weight than individual editors' opinions on demarcation (to address WLU's considered opinion, which I respect, but for these purposes it's not in the same league as RS). I'm basing this analysis on RS and WP:PG; assuming that we should follow such things, is there a reason to keep the category? Thanks, --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me) 06:28, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

P.S. @ IRWolfie- , just to be clear, of course we should use all sorts of search terms. I've done lots of searches including "pseudoscience" and gotten good RS's. A good search strategy is as broad as possible. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 19:13, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Middle 8, your analysis doesn't address my core point of why acupuncture can be categorized as pseudoscience - the use and invocation of pseudoscientific explanations for how it works. Qi, points, stagnation and meridians are pretty unambiguous pseudoscience, unless you've got some hitherto-unseen reference that revolutionizes biology through the discovery of a novel form of energy that doesn't behave like any other form of energy we've ever found in the universe. The sources pointing out the pseudoscientific nature of qi and whatnot are unambiguous and reliable, and there is no scientific debate I am aware of that defends these concepts. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:44, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there is. If you're interested to know more, I can send you some links . -A1candidate (talk) 15:20, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

@WLU - Pretty sure I get it. You're saying that (a) the single most important (or only) criterion for demarcation of acupuncture is whether the traditional explanation for it (Qi and meridians and so on) is pseudoscientific, and that (b) said explanation is pseudoscientific, so that justifies the category. I'm not disputing (b), I'm saying that for (a) and the ensuing conclusions, we should look to RS's, not WP editors. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 08:05, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

c) Since there are already reliable sources pointing out the pseudoscientific nature of the qi explanation, the discussion is pretty much over.

A1candidate, if you have sources that support qi existing as a real entity, please post them. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 12:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

@ WLU, needless to say, discussions are over when there is consensus. Of course there are RS's agreeing with (b) (that qi is PS), and I've seen sources agreeing with (a), the approach to demarcation you're suggesting. What we do is weigh the range of RS's, and RS's offer a variety of dermarcation criteria; some conclude acu is indeed PS and some say it's in a grey area, as Shermer does. If editors agree that Shermer and other "grey area" sources represent a significant view, and agree that that fact brings unambiguous demarcation into question, and agree that this means we shouldn't use the category, then we shouldn't use the category. So far I could Alexbrn, A1Candidate and myself agreeing with the "grey ==> no category" viewpoint, and yourself and IRWolfie- and (now) QG in "yes, let's use it" camp, FWIW. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 19:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

To be strictly correct, I have no position on this: the sourcing is various enough for me not to want to bother arguing with the acupuncturists here. Alexbrn 19:56, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:NPA --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 20:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh FFS! You're mentioned editors in your comment, so did I - and not in an "attacking" way either. Kindly don't misrepresent my position. COI matters, you know. Alexbrn 20:12, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Alex, you're intelligent enough. What part of "Comment on content, not on the contributor" don't you understand? --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 20:19, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

You are the one naming editors and (falsely) attributing views to 'em. Alexbrn 20:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Huh? Have you read the lede of WP:NPA? It's not about naming editors during talk page consensus discussions! It was inappropriate to slip in a snarky ad hominem when clarifying recent comment, which a reasonable person could easily interpret as I did. Time to clear the air a bit; see your user talk. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 21:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no "snark" about it. WP:COI is a behavioural guideline I take seriously. There are editors here who violate it and who consequently are a "fixed bit" constantly POV-pushing to the detriment of the article. Editors with a COI should follow WP:COIU. As far as I'm concerned we've too many editors with wallets fattened by acupuncture money trying to push an overly-positive view of it here on Misplaced Pages. Never mind the Wiki-lawyering, it's just wrong. Alexbrn 21:36, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

"Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest." That was part of WP:COI for quite awhile, and taken seriously. Here is where is disappeared, as part of one editor's general copy-edit. You've been quite clear that you disagree with that statement, and not only as it applies to acupuncture. I'm going to follow the community's take on this -- which is TBD, both with respect to that sentence and acupuncturists -- and not yours, unless of course the two coincide. Get it? I do and will follow WP:PG really carefully, but I'm not going to hew to your or anyone else's idiosyncratic takes on WP:PG, or harassment based on the same. "Comment on content and not the contributor" is policy. You need to follow it. Address my edits on the merits. Thank you! --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 04:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Alexbrn, please make a more sincere effort to assess the quality of edits by the actual people you are accusing of COI. I stand by all of my edits as true efforts to present the subject fairly. You yourself had to walk back your support of Dominus and TippyGoomba after I pointed out what the source (Ernst) actually said. Please be specific to edits and content, because the wide brush you paint with obscures the actual reality.Herbxue (talk) 18:23, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Editors with a COI should respect WP:COIU, and I'd respect that. If they don't they're misbehaving. Alexbrn 18:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

It is not just a real entity, but a physically measurable quantity (de-qi). -A1candidate (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

@ A1Candidate - Interesting... yes, even though qi is PS according to most (or at least many) sources, it's such a pervasive concept in Chinese culture that it is possible to translate it in multiple ways, and obviously not all of them are PS. It can mean "oxygen". It can mean "strength and vitality; absence of lassitude". "Xu Pi Qi" (or something like that" can mean that someone likely has diarrhea, lassitude, a tendency toward lassitude and feeling cold, and a pale tongue with little coating and tooth marks on the side, pretty much all of which are "intersubjectively verifiable" when taking a patient history. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI) 19:42, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

1) If the local consensus is that the pseudoscientific nature of the standard explanation of acupuncture is not considered pseudoscientific, despite numerous reliable sources that verify this point, I will seek the larger consensus of the community through one of the noticeboards or a RFC.

2) Even if translated as "oxygen" or "strength" (the former of which is rather absurd - I wasn't aware that the Chinese were aware of even the atomic theory, let alone the existence of a specific element dissolved in blood, was it Joseph Needham that discovered this pre-Enlightenment knowledge of atomic theory?) neither oxygen nor "strength" stagnates in ways that can be manipulated with needles. The popular discussions of qi explicitly describe it as a form of pseudoscientific vitalist "energy", and if there is a discussion or sources to justify it being translated as some absurd projection of modern scientific knowledge into the ancient past, that is still not the mainstream or conventional use of the term. Qi is described by most popular sources as a form of vitalistic energy that can be manipulated with needles, an idea which is pseudoscientific nonsense. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:36, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi WLU, new editor here, I just want to articulate a different point of view of mine which you might like to consider: that being than qi can't be "pseudoscientific nonsense", because its a philosophic concept which predates science. Same as on the Humorism wikipedia page, the four humors of Hippocratic medicine are not described as being "pseudoscientfic nonsense", because we accept that the ancients lived in a different environment of knowledge and thus had different terminology than what we would use. In the case of Traditional Chinese Medicine, we must consider that not only were its origins deeply rooted in ancient culture, this culture was also highly foreign to the sort of European, Anglo-centric culture which permeates us today. Therefore we need to use cultural sensitivity and lose the chip on our shoulder with regards to trying to "burn heretics" like you seem to be trying to do, and try to use a bit of empathy to understand the other point of view. Cheers! Arthur Longshanks (talk) 10:32, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

This may be of interest: Chenglin, Liu, Wang Xiaohu, Xu Hua, Liu Fang, Dang Ruishan, Zhang Dongming, Zhang Xinyi, Xie Honglan, and Xiao Tiqiao. "X-ray phase-contrast CT imaging of the acupoints based on synchrotron radiation." Journal of Electron Spectroscopy and Related Phenomena (2013). - See more at: http://www.healthcmi.com/Acupuncture-Continuing-Education-News/1230-new-ct-scans-reveal-acupuncture-points hypotaxis (talk) 21:45, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced text and deletion of images

SYN and MEDRS violations?

The recently added text belongs in the Acupuncture#Scientific view on TCM theory section. The text failed V and there is a misplaced source that is about electroacupuncture. The fv tag was removed but the text was not rewritten. A source about a patent update was added to this article. QuackGuru (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

There is NOT consensus that a separate section is warranted. This is a weight violation for a separate section for two sentences. The ref added is not specifically about acupuncture. These four edits makes no sense. QuackGuru (talk) 06:42, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

The entire section is based on primary sources, possibly with the exception of Gorgi and Nieri 2008 which is not about acupuncture - pure synthesis. --RexxS (talk) 16:32, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

When there is better sources available that are not SYN or that are specifically about acupuncture we can use them. Checking the edit history I see two images missing from the article. QuackGuru (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

The controversial text was restored again. I think we should wait for better sourcing. I agree with User:RexxS on this. QuackGuru (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Now there is an edit war to restore it , but the text is still based on primary sources? And I haven't seen any comment about Gorgi and Nieri 2008. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:56, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I found this source (PMID 23762107). "However, little is known about whether and how these findings may translate to clinically meaningful outcomes. TS and CPM are emerging behavioral correlates of ascending excitatory and descending inhibitory limbs of central pain modulation. Both TS and CPM have been widely used in clinical pain research, yet their application to the understanding of acupuncture analgesia is limited." QuackGuru (talk) 01:44, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Summary text

Wondering why "TCM is largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments." was removed? Was based on a 2007 Nature article Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:15, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

That looks to be as reliable a source as we can get. I don't see any engagement here from people who are disputing it so I will restore ----Snowded 16:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

If you don't see any engagement its because I didn't link to the discussion regarding it at Traditional Chinese Medicine, my apologies. There has been much discussion regarding this issue and it has been sent for third party review because there is not consensus to include this source as a conclusion in the lede. It does not summarize the body, and represents an opinion. I do not object to the opinion being expressed, but it must include who is expressing it. (If we, as WP, don't have consensus regarding this then it can't be presented as an accepted conclusion). Herbxue (talk) 17:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

This has been discussed at the TCM talk page. See: Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Labels: Pseudoscience, proto-science, pre-science, Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Pseudoscience, Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Protoscience, and Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Inappropriate conclusion in lede of article. There is a current discussion at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Traditional Chinese medicine. The text in the lede is a summary of the body at this article and at TCM. QuackGuru (talk) 17:22, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Summary of TCM

I think a WP:SUMMARY of TCM is appropriate because Acupuncture is a key component of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) which aims to treat a range of conditions. No evidence to the contrary has been provided. QuackGuru (talk) 04:28, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Of course not. Acupuncture is a key component of TCM, and therefore we included it in the TCM article. But TCM herbology is not a part of acupuncture, and that's why it doesn't belong here. --Mallexikon (talk) 08:43, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, you are misreading WP:SUMMARY. It recommends a summary on the parent article, not in the child article. It's intended for sections such as Traditional_Chinese_medicine#Acupuncture_and_moxibustion. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The text summarised in the lede should be discussed in the body. QuackGuru (talk) 17:40, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes maybe one paragraph / 4 sentences. I agree that the previous summary was a little too large. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:51, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Acupuncture is a key component of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) which aims to treat a range of conditions. Successful TCM results have been scarce: artemisinin, for example, which is an effective treatment for malaria, was fished out of a herb traditionally used to treat fever. Although advocates have argued that research had missed some key features of TCM, such as the subtle interrelationships between ingredients, it is largely pseudoscience, with no valid mechanism of action for the majority of its treatments.

Here is the current text in the body. I kept it brief. QuackGuru (talk) 21:58, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

No. This is ridiculous. Artemisin has nothing to do with acupuncture. Chinese herbology is a child article of TCM, i.e. its a sibling article of acupuncture. We don't include summaries of sibling articles at WP. --Mallexikon (talk) 01:53, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

This is not ridiculous. This is fun to edit. I deleted the Artemisin bit. QuackGuru (talk) 03:40, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Should only really be about how acupuncture is used within TCM. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:28, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Acupuncturists often sell TCM products. QuackGuru (talk) 03:41, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure but this article is about acupuncture rather than acupuncturists. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:11, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Consensus was never reached for the changes

There never was WP:CON for this change at TCM or this page. None of the edits improved the article. This source was previously rejected from TCM. QuackGuru (talk) 02:17, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, there was consensus for Richard Keatinge's proposal at Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Labels: pseudoscience, protoscience. As far as I can see, these edits improve the article very much. And, yes, someone wrongfully deleted the source you're talking about. It is, however, reliable. If you don't think so, please provide evidence for your allegation. --Mallexikon (talk) 03:58, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

A personal website is not RS material.

Things were already hammered out with the uninvolved editor User:Dominus Vobisdu and other editors. See Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Traditional_Chinese_medicine.

User:Jim1138 explained there does not seem to have consensus for change and now you are making non-consensus changes to this article after they were rejected from TCM. QuackGuru (talk) 04:11, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you referring to this "uninvolved" editor who has been edit-warring since last year? -A1candidate (talk) 04:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

"Personal website"?? This is the source. It's an article from Steven Novella in Science-based Medicine, an online skeptic journal. Your opposition to this source is ridiculous (especially given the fact that it was you who insisted on keeping a quote from Quackwatch in the TCM article) and reeks of WP:Tendentious editing. Now come up with some real arguments or move on, please. --Mallexikon (talk) 04:50, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

You haven't shown how this personal website is reliable. What you added was also WP:OR. I don't see any improvements so far. QuackGuru (talk) 04:56, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

What part of "online skeptic journal" (their editors can be found here) did you not understand? --Mallexikon (talk) 05:15, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The fact that it's described as an "online" publication should be clear to all. Is there even a proper peer-review process for such a poorly-designed blog? From what this blog says, anyone can submit an article regardless of their credentials. Is it a suitable source for Misplaced Pages? No. -A1candidate (talk) 11:37, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

As blogs go, that one is actually very good, but not good enough. The problem is that the author and the chief editor are the same person, Novella. That doesn't mean it is wrong, (it isn't) it. Just means the sourcing isn't sufficient. The correct response isn't edit warring a summary deletion, it is either finding a better source or tagging with {{medrs}} to draw such better sourcing.LeadSongDog come howl! 13:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Better sourcing was previously found. I think we can go back to this version and see what can be improved before all the controversial edits begun. For example, this edit that was a an obvious violation of WP:ASSERT did not improve the lede and never had consensus at TCM. This edit at TCM was also against consensus. He continues to edit war against consensus at TCM. He is also violating assert at TCM. He added this source to acupuncture against consensus and he personally thinks it is speculating that TCM is probably just pseudoscience. It looks like he is editing according to his belief and not according to reliable sources. QuackGuru (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks like evidence that you're edit-warring, QG. And since you continually add material here and elsewhere without consensus, your WP:KETTLE isn't very persuasive. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 04:58, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

This edit improved the lede by using language according to the source. But the source itself is a study. It is not a general overview of TCM. It should not get the weight of an overview.

I don't think it would be a good idea to go back to this version. It failed MEDRS. Editors should follow MEDRS and not their personal beliefs. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 05:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

You should know by now editors you should follow WP:ASSERT and not when any editor has a personal disagreement with the Nature source. QuackGuru (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

MEDRS and ASF violations are continuing to happen at ACU and TCM

See here and here. I do think it is wise to go back to an earlier version. QuackGuru (talk) 02:38, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

So…. the first edit is fine and well sourced and the second one makes the mistake of using a primary source to make an edit that requires a systematic review. Absolutely no relation between the two edits you call "violations" - just revert the second one with a thoughtful and considerate explanation. Are you capable of thought and consideration? No, you want to push POV by suggesting we need to revert to an earlier version of the article. Are you PPdd?Herbxue (talk) 05:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) Two purported instances are not "mass" violations; I've changed the section header to less contentious wording, especially since the second is from a new editor who should be welcomed and not subjected to negative hyperbole (cf. WP:BITE; and note, I'm sure you didn't realize the editor was a newbie when you titled the section).

The first one is fine per WP:SPS, given Novella's background (plus, there's editorial oversight, FWIW). Agree that the second source is inadequate since it's not a review, but we can use reviews cited in archived talk regarding biomedical correlates of acupoints. Since the second can simply be removed, there's no need to go back to an earlier version. For the sake of decorum and not being BITE-y I'm not going to remove it right away, and suggest leaving it be for a few hours at least; rather, I left a note and a welcome on the new editor's page, encouraging him to have a look at the sources in the talk archive above. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 05:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

There is strong opposition to including the first here.

And there was no CON at TCM either.

User:JzG previously deleted it along with others at TCM.

User:Alexbrn wrote don't need to attribute statements that aren't seriously contested, it endangers our neutrality. See WP:ASF.

So why are the ASF violations continuing here when no serious dispute has been presented? QuackGuru (talk) 17:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

No serious dispute? Are you kidding me? Its all we have been talking about for the last 2 weeks! As far as I can tell there is consensus for attributing the pseudoscience as a quote so that the opinion is included but that we maintain encyclopedic tone. Are you just choosing to ignore all other editors on these pages?Herbxue (talk) 17:26, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

You still have not provided a serious dispute. The serious dispute must be among reliable sources. Because you personally object to it is irrelevant. We edit according to the source not you personal belief that you think it is not pseudoscience. See Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Traditional Chinese medicine. QuackGuru (talk) 17:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Remember WP:CONSENSUS, QG? The dispute is this: editors are deciding how to use RS's. Nobody disputes that the Nature ediorial is an RS, but there is obviously disagreement over how to use it. That includes the matter of using attribution (per WP:ASSERT), as you well know. (One reason many editors find you hard to work with is that things like what I just wrote need to be explained to you.) --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 18:51, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

You are ignoring the obvious fact that on Misplaced Pages we ASSERT the text when there is serious dispute. Editors already explained this at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Traditional Chinese medicine. QuackGuru (talk) 18:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Not ignoring anything obvious, just expressing a different view than you on what is fact and what is opinion, and the Nature editorial is vague and too far toward the latter. Here is a bit more along those lines from DRN, and here's my followup to your reply at DRN. Let's not fork discussion; please reply here or there. Thx --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 23:00, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• I agree that the first is acceptable though EBCAM is pushing a heavy barrow up a steep hill (read: advancing an agenda). QuackGuru: if you can find a source more skeptical than Steve Novella you're doing pretty well. The second is not, for several reasons not least of which is the fact that location of needling has been extensively tested and found to make no difference at all, so a single paper in a journal publishing outside its area of expertise cannot possibly be used as a source to assert the opposite. Guy (Help!) 17:44, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I have updated the article. I don't think it added much to the section. QuackGuru (talk) 18:32, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The article has not been found to resolve the NPOV issues with any consensus. Propose a draft here to your revisions and we can all pitch in and make improve the article. Regards. DVMt (talk) 21:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Strong Bias towards Skeptic Researchers

Example at the Efficacy section:

Although minimally invasive, the puncturing of the skin with acupuncture needles poses problems when designing trials that adequately control for placebo effects. Publication bias is listed as a concern in the reviews of randomized controlled trials of acupuncture. SKEPTIC POV

Since most trials found "sham" acupuncture may be as efficacious as "real" acupuncture, the validity of traditional acupuncture theories including acupuncture point locations has been questioned. Some research results are encouraging but others suggest acupuncture's effects are mainly due to placebo.SKEPTIC POV

It remains unclear whether acupuncture reduces pain independent of a psychological impact of the needling ritual.

The results of trials researching the efficacy of acupuncture are variable and inconsistent for any condition.SKEPTIC POV

An overview of high-quality Cochrane reviews suggested that acupuncture is effective for some but not all kinds of pain. An overview of systematic reviews found that numerous reviews have shown little convincing evidence that acupuncture is an effective treatment for reducing pain.SKEPTIC POV

Acupuncture is generally safe when administered using Clean Needle Technique (CNT) but there is a low risk of adverse effects, which can be serious including death in rare cases.SKEPTIC POV

5 instances of the skeptic POV dominating the tone, weight 3 references to Ernst, 2 to Colqhoun. These 2 represent the fringe, or outlier POV. If they represented the mainstream, medical POV, then these guys http://www.medicalacupuncture.org wouldn't be around. Where does dry needling, or medical acupuncture fit it? DVMt (talk) 22:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah? Who cares were or not these guys are around "http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/" Whether or not evidence supports acupuncture has nothing to do with whether or not some physicians do acupuncture. Lots of MDs promote stupid stuff and have non evidence based practice.

We should be using the original Cochrane reviews IMO rather than this paper Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Um, no, that's "strong bias towards reality-based researchers". This is medicine and science we're talking about, any claim has to be proven by its proponents and the more extraordinary it is, the stronger the burden of proof. In medicine, appeal to tradition is tantamount to an admission that it's twaddle. Before the 20th Century we knew next to nothing about human physiology, biochemistry or the mechanism of disease. A system based on the idea that an empirically unverifiable life force flows in empirically unverifiable meridians and is subject to imbalances that can be corrected by inserting needles - oh and by the way ancient texts show this was fleams not needles - could only be anywhere close to right by the most amazing happenstance. In reality, of course, we now know that it doesn't matter where you stick the needle, or even whether you stick it in. That's what we find if instead of asking "how do we show that acupuncture works?", we ask "does acupuncture work?".

Existence of some kind of trade body does not validate the practice. There are medical homeopaths. That does not make homeopathy any more valid. Guy (Help!) 23:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

We're not talking about homeopathy which, according to my knowledge has no evidence of effectiveness. Also, we're skipping my main point: overuse of skeptic POV at the efficacy section. We're also dismissing an entire system of healing based on our own Western values as opposed to what the Chinese actually think and do. This is called cultural relativism. Regardless of the mechanism, why are we using 5 skeptic papers to dismiss the increasing body of literature that suggests effectiveness for specific conditions, such as this new systematic review which states "there is high-level evidence to support the use of acupuncture for treating major depressive disorder in pregnancy." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24761171. The article, like many other CAM articles over-represents Ernst et al. while watering down (or deleting) sources that suggest otherwise. DVMt (talk) 17:39, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

That is a fringe journal written by the trade. Med Acupunct. 2013 Jun;25(3):164-172 is not an independent source on the subject matter. See WP:FRINGE. Cheers. QuackGuru (talk) 17:45, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you asserting a fact, or your personal belief system? Providing a source would be helpful. There is another systematic review that concludes "Our results are consistent with acupuncture significantly lowers blood pressure in patients taking antihypertensive medications. We did not find that acupuncture without antihypertensive medications significantly improves blood pressure in those hypertensive patients." ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24723957). This and other CAM articles at WP, that have a growing evidence-base, seems to be whitewashing or watering down sources that suggest effectiveness or that contradict the Ernst, whom you acknowledge you're in contact with (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AChiropractic&diff=606080466&oldid=606052541). How are do you explain the fact that it appears that you're acting as a meat puppet for EE? He's directly and personally feeding you with his critical articles offline. Something is definitely awry here. DVMt (talk) 18:05, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Does Med. Acupunct. have legit peer-review? AIM, it turns out, doesn't, disappointingly: see WT:MEDRS archived discussion. We have to use good journals, no question. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 19:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) Some thoughts, and forgive me for talking a bit about the subject rather than the article:

• 1 is true; study design is confounded by acu being a procedure. I thought that this was something both skeptics and proponents agreed upon (albeit with proponents saying acu is so complex that study design is highly confounded, and the plethora of (-) results are really false negatives aka Type 2 errors)
• 2 is certainly true in the literature that MEDRS considers optimum, even though some proponents feel that the false negative caveat mentioned above has been neglected. Note: IMO, it hasn't been neglected as much as proponents say it has. Not when multiple studies show that nonpenetrating needles, or toothpicks etc., function as well as real needles at acupoints. Not when multiple studies show that penetrating needles at nonacupoints function (another kind of sham acu) as well as penetrating needles at acupoints. Granted, there is potential for Type 2 errors when such studies are carried out using naive practitioners who don't know how to needle properly (a concession has been made in order to blind the practitioner). But there have also been studies of this type (penetrating needles at both acupoints and nonacupoints) using trained practitioners (who insert & manipulate needles properly) -- and blinded evaluators -- THAT ALSO SHOW EQUIVALENCE OF THE TREATMENT AND CONTROL GROUPS. GERAC was such a study. This is strong evidence that the verum acupoints studied are not uniquely active. Note also that in such studies, any unblinding would tend to create false positives aka Type 1 errors. And there have also been studies where practitioners, remarkably, have been blinded through use of ingenious sham needles (note that this just wouldn't work with some practitioners who manipulate needles a lot in order to break up trigger points). Such studies also have shown equivalence between treatment and control groups. Note again that unblinding (of either the patient or practitioner) would tend to lead to Type 1 errors, not Type 2 errors.
• 3 is true also -- see Cochrane reviews -- and no wonder, given #2 above. It's even true for studies on pain. Now, I would like to see a treatment group comparing real trigger-point release and a control group using some sort of other technique that's equally "noxious" or intense but nonspecific -- say a nice strong "reflexology" session (a nice, twinge-y foot massage, just for good measure avoiding the regions of the foot that are supposed to be reflex areas (per both TCM and Western relexology) for whatever area is being treated with the acupuncture. And then add in *another* treatment group with *both* the acu trigger-point release AND the reflexology. That would tell me something, assuming the control group were really inert. That would help me figure out whether the efficacy for pain seen in the Vickers review is due to verum acupuncture working, or an accumulated bunch of the Type 1, unblinding errors mentioned above. It would also be nice to see a meta-analysis that separated out the results of the sham studies that are prone to the Type 2 and the Type 1 errors, respectively. Bottom line -- still a margin of plausibility for acu working for pain, but the margin has undeniably been growing slimmer over time. Note -- my bias, from my style of treatment which is similar to DVMt's, is that trigger point release is real, and even some skeptic types like Brangifer have, in the past, spoken positively of trigger point release. But it still can and should be studied, and if it doesn't hold up, well, what then?
• 4 probably shows a need for the text to be rewritten, using the most up-to-date reviews, and accomodating all their conclusions. Still, both sentences are pretty much true summaries of the literature.
• 5 is true but gives too much weight to DEATH in one sentence.

Just my thoughts FWIW. --Middle 8 (leave me alone • talk to me • COI?) 18:57, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

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