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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Right Sector (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Darouet (talk · contribs)
• Dervorguilla (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Right Sector is an ultranationalist and paramilitary political group that formed as a union of smaller far-right groups in Ukraine at the end of 2013. Its ideology, members or constituent groups have been described by some media and scholars as neo-fascist, an appellation not used by others, and contested by a few. The group traces its origins to the far-right Ukrainian nationalists who view themselves as inheritors of the controversial figure Stepan Bandera and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, as opposed to other, more moderate Ukrainian nationalist parties.

I've presented newspaper articles (from Die Welt, The New York Times, The Nation, Le Monde Diplomatique, Haaretz, Time (magazine)) and scholarly opinions explaining their far-right politics, but Dervorguilla maintains that the sources I present are either mischaracterized, not reliable, not notable, or otherwise a violation of WP:DUE. I contest his characterization of each source and believe that the article is beginning to look like a self-description by Right Sector.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have discussed this extensively on Talk:Right Sector, on our own talk pages, and have tried an RfC, which gave mixed results but towards the end favored exclusion of the material. We've also talked about a dispute resolution.

How do you think we can help?

I think having a neutral, experienced editor to work with us to establish: 1) what the sources actually say, 2) how notable or reliable they are, and lastly 3) what their weight should be would be greatly appreciated. I think this is possible because we've both been cordial.

Summary of dispute by Dervorguilla

1. Let’s begin with the topmost material added by Darouet: “Die Welt reports that Right Sector formed from an association of right-wing and neo-fascist Ukrainian political factions.”

The cited unsigned background analysis has been removed by the publisher from its searchable database. The newspaper does however quote a “well-known Ukrainian researcher” as calling the subject an organization of little “right-wing” groups and gangs. It calls the subject itself a “right-wing” group, a “nationalist” group, and an “ultranationalist” group. See Talk:Right Sector for a lengthier discussion.

2. Darouet started an RfC asking “Do major papers describe Right Sector as neo-Fascist?”. Collect responded “Some do and others don't. So what the Misplaced Pages best practice is - is to use that term or terms which cover the broad consensus of sources which would appear to be "Right Wing Nationalist".” A few days later Darouet added, in about 3½ hours, all this material:

Die Welt reports that Right Sector formed from an association of right-wing and neo-fascist Ukrainian political factions.… Journalist Alec Luhn for The Nation wrote that "ultranationalists and neo-Nazis" from Right Sector and other groups took control…. Ishchenko wrote that "previously marginal neofascists from the militant Pravy Sektor" entered into negotiations…. Le Monde Diplomatique's Emmanuel Dreyfus writes that the presence of "neo-fascist groups such as Pravy Sector" in Maidan point to a crisis…. Haaretz has written that members of Right Sector used neo-Nazi symbols…. According to TIME magazine, Right Sector's ideology borders on fascism…. Columnist Conn Hallinan has written that the United States press has "downplayed the role" of Right Sector and other far-right groups, which some media and scholars label as "fascist."… Political Scientist Cas Mudde writes that Right Sector's constituent groups include "various neo-fascists and neo-Nazis" who formed alliances…. Political science professor Alexander Motyl by contrast writes that Right Sector is … not fascist.… Political Scientist Anton Shekhovstov writes that while "Right Sector has indeed a neo-Nazi fringe … the main group behind the Right Sector … is far from neo-Nazism…."

Lvivske or I had already presented our concerns about these items at Talk.

3. I believe Lvivske (talk) should be included in this discussion. Meanwhile some of the material added by Darouet can be removed without harm to the article.

___

Addressing Darouet’s comments that he’s ‘presented sources explaining the subject’s far-right politics’ and that I’ve ‘maintained they’re violations of WP:DUE’ —
I’ve been supporting his point that the subject has far-right politics. And I’ve never maintained (or implied) that the sources are violations of WP:DUE. Rather, I’ve maintained that particular sources are violations of PUBLICFIGURE, NEWSBLOG, RSOPINION, or REDFLAG.
00:52, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Right Sector discussion

• I'm Theodore, a volunteer at DRN. I'd be happy to assist in discussing this issue, but will wait until Dervorguilla responds before adding further comments. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 22:08, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I've contacted User:Lvivske regarding this discussion. To start out with, I have one quick question for both editors: Under what circumstances would you be comfortable with references to fascism existing in this article? Any answer is fine; I just want to clarify what you're each looking to see in the article. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 12:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks Theodore!; I don't see any problem with User:Lvivske participating. I think that we should include references to fascism as direct quotes or as paraphrasing from sources in the "history" section, where Right Sector's constituent groups are discussed, and in "ideology". I think that Right Sector's description as a neo-fascist organization (or the description of its ideology) should also be noted in the lead, with a qualification that some researchers, e.g. Shekhovstov, think that while some contributing groups as neo-fascist, the group as a whole is not. -Darouet (talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks for your response! I'll ask a couple other questions and offer some ideas once Dervorguilla and Lvivske reply. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 23:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi everyone! Is there still a need for further discussion on this subject? If so, I am wondering whether we can agree to discuss the "fascism" allegations in the article, while indicating that these are allegations? E.g., we could say that (Insert source) has correlated the ideology of Right Sector to that of fascist groups, but this claim has been denied by (Insert other source). Or, alternatively, we could just say "(Right Sector has frequently been identified as neo-fascist/ultranationalist/etcetera", followed by as many sources as possible. What do you think? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 14:30, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Darouet and I appear to be making progress on our own now, Theodore! Thanks for your help. --Dervorguilla (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

There are still problems, but I need another day or two before I can get back to this, sorry! -Darouet (talk) 21:43, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

• Ok. Let's revisit this in 72 hours; if you've made sufficient progress by then, I'll close the discussion. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Dervorguilla, it would be helpful if you would explain these recent changes to the article here. -Darouet (talk) 04:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Is there something in particular that′s wrong? --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Following your changes, the article went from having an ordered structure describing its formation, activities in Maidan, and then ideology, to now having a long incoherent ideology section with every statement from every source listed independently, without any flow of ideas, logic or history. -Darouet (talk) 14:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I've made some changes, trying to consolidate similar views, or describe related discussions, including for instance disagreement among academics/researchers, within the same paragraphs. Let me know what you think. -Darouet (talk) 17:55, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I can restore and reorganize the content in the "Ideology: Descriptions in the press" section so it’s shorter and more coherent. And we can get some other editors to contribute too.

We might as well limit the citations in the lead to what Misplaced Pages regards as the few truly mainstream news media (MSM).

“Mainstream media (MSM) are those media disseminated via the largest distribution channels…. Media organizations such as CBS and the New York Times set the tone for other smaller news organizations … lacking the resources to do more individual research and coverage, primary method being through the Associated Press….”

--Dervorguilla (talk) 00:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how we should proceed on this Dervorguilla, Theodore!. Should we try to establish a framework within which we can accept sources that are mainstream, reliable enough for the lead? -Darouet (talk) 01:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

That's a good idea. I think the "mainstream media" idea isn't bad, but we have to look at quality over quantity of viewers/readers. Some news outlets will provide high-quality, WP:RS, WP:V information on events, but might not have the same circulation as CBS or the NYT. We should probably try to balance out information in the lead so that it reflects consistencies between multiple, "mainstream" sources. I'll offer a few more ideas on how to do this, but I'd like to hear your thoughts first, if you have some specific suggestions. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I support Darouet's idea as given. Why make it harder to reach agreement on appropriate sources? To my knowledge, neither of us would actually treat CBS as a top-quality source. Nor would either of us suggest that BBC, Time, WSJ, NYTimes, Reuters, AP, AFP, or Der Spiegel aren't top-quality sources as well as top-quantity.

Thanks to Darouet's contributions the article as a whole no longer appears to be tilted in favor of the subject group. But several passages appear to be (jarringly) tilted one way or the other. We should attack those vigorously, but let's try do it address those conservatively and piece by piece! --Dervorguilla (talk) 07:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC) 19:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

About the BBC interview I removed... I don’t regard anonymous “man on the street” interviews as being particularly encyclopedic, no matter how reliable the publisher. In this case the interviewee may well have been using loaded terminology like “clean” for shock value. The casual reader is more likely to interpret the quote as representing an incriminating admission against interest, wouldn’t you agree? It might be appropriate in a section on Right Sector’s (1) use of attention-seeking rhetoric and garb to garner publicity (and recruit more fight-ready soccer hooligans to its cause) and (2) use of grandstanding self-promotional projects (as in Odessa) to garner more publicity by appearing dramatically out of character.

It’s a marvelous quote, though, and I support your having added it to the article, as I presume you were counting on me to edit it if I perceived a problem.

If you have time, maybe you could search the scholarly literature for incriminating admissions by the various groups’ leadership or their designated representatives. Such quotations (or paraphrases) would be far more encyclopedic and useful to our readers!

In such cases the sources would most likely be low-circulation high-quality *academic* journals or books.

Before adding such material to the article, we could let each other *verify* the quality of the publication, the special expertise of the author, and the representativeness of the quoted passage.

Moving on, I’m willing to live with the article-body text as it stands now. Should either of us want to make significant additions or deletions (including paragraph reorganization), we could propose them here and then edit together before altering the text.

I also propose that we spend more time on noncontentious cleanup. I'm going to start by fixing the BBC cite. (The link doesn’t work.) I see Yobot got to it first! Yobot got it wrong... Fixed it myself.

Peace, Dervorguilla (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC) 19:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC) 22:56, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Idea for lead:

Right Sector (Ukrainian: Пра́вий се́ктор, Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian political party and paramilitary confederation, characterized by mainstream publications as "far-right", "nationalist", or "ultranationalist". It provided logistical support and militant tactical leadership at the Euromaiden protests in Kiev.

Its leading group, Trident, had a national conservative ideology. Other founding groups included the Ukrainian National Assembly–Ukrainian National Self Defence (UNA–UNSO), White Hammer, Patriots of Ukraine, and the Social-National Assembly; the latter two groups had ultranationalist or Ukrainian neo-Nazi ideologies. The Associated Press and other international news organizations found no evidence of anti-Semitism or hate crimes by the confederation since its establishment in November 2013.

Right Sector has not attempted to compile accurate membership data. Its leader, Dmytro Yarosh, once estimated that it had at least 10,000 members.

Sounds encyclopedic to me! What do you think, Darouet? --Dervorguilla (talk) 01:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC) Struckthrough after reply by Theodore!. --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:39, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with this; it's very well-written and provides a fair categorization of Right Sector's politics. I'm interested to see Darouet's response, but this sounds good so far. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Shekhovtsov is a (1) pre-eminent scholar, (2) a student, and (3) a self-professed conspiracy theorist. The (very interesting) material cited to him is going to have to be expeditiously removed from this contentious BLPGROUP. --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:46, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks both for your help. Dervorguilla, I would support text similar to the one you mentioned. While both Right Sector itself, and also its constituent groups, have been described as "fascist," I don't think that both of these things need to be mentioned in the lead because belaboring such a point will leave the lead unbalanced. Therefore I'd support this option:

"Right Sector (Ukrainian: Пра́вий се́ктор, Pravyi Sektor) is a Ukrainian political party and paramilitary confederation, characterized by mainstream publications as "far-right", "nationalist", or "ultra-nationalist." It provided logistical support and militant tactical leadership at the Euromaiden protests in Kiev.

Right Sector views itself within the tradition of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and their controversial leader, Stepan Bandera. The ideology of Its leading constituent group, Trident, has been described as national conservative. Other founding groups included the Ukrainian National Assembly–Ukrainian National Self Defence (UNA–UNSO), White Hammer, Patriots of Ukraine, and the Social-National Assembly; some of these are described as having ultranationalist or neo-fascist beliefs.

etc."

I wouldn't support the AP statement in the lead unless we're sure that the statement is actually representative of coverage by major papers. For instance, Haaretz has described the organization as likely handing out anti-semitic literature at events.

Lastly, where are we getting this information about Shekhovstov being a "self-professed conspiracy theorist?" I couldn't find any information in the (unreliable) links provided, and the information about Patriots of Ukraine and the Social-National Assembly was published in an academic book (besides the fact that its tacitly backed up by The New York Times and Die Welt, though they aren't as authoritative sources, despite their quality). -Darouet (talk) 00:55, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Stephen Velychenko, “The EU as Ukraine’s Lesser Evil,” Ukrainian Center for Independent Political Research, March 10, 2014.

“During the past months pro-Kremlin opinion concerning events in Ukraine has been espoused by supposedly “liberal” academics …

“Some of these de facto politically pro-Kremlin leftists must be considered dishonest because they do not openly declare they are funded by the Kremlin. Anton Shekhovtsov is currently studying these groups ( … anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.ca).

“This information product is made possible by the generous support of the American people through the United States Agency for International Development.”

You have explained how I’m seeking to curry favor with “liberal readers,” Darouet. I accordingly believe that there will be no need for us to make any further unsolicited remarks to or about each other on Article History, Talk, User Talk, Talk History, or elsewhere, in perpetuity. --Dervorguilla (talk) 03:37, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks to everyone for your participation during the last few days. I think that both Darouet's and Dervorguilla's proposed leads are excellent; if we decide to go with Darouet's phrasing, I would imagine that the final comment about neo-fascism will need to be extensively sourced. Additionally, let's be careful about flinging around accusations about political ideologies; these are contentious topics, to be sure, but we can work around ideological differences when resolving this dispute. At this point, I would be cautious about Anton Shekhovtsov, but I am not sure it's a good idea to expunge his material from the article. If his commentary has been prominent in recent months, it may well meet the definition of a reliable source. At any rate, any article content based on his writings could be explicitly attributed to him. What do you think? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 04:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Full disclosure of interests
Dervorguilla declares that neither she nor any member of her immediate family has a significant financial interest in any product, service, or entity discussed in her edits or in any competing product, service, or entity. --Dervorguilla (talk) 04:46, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi All, sorry for my slowness here. I do have a series of academic articles or book chapters, by Shekhovstov and others, that treat Ukrainian far-right nationalism. I'll see if others mention these groups. -Darouet (talk) 03:09, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Breakin' My Heart (Pretty Brown Eyes) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Erpert (talk · contribs)
• Richhoncho (talk · contribs)
• Lil-unique1 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

One user thinks in articles about songs, the article in question should be listed in both the SONGS and SINGLES categories. Two other users disagree with this.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I was going to start a thread on Richhoncho's talk page about, but upon realizing Lil-unique1 already did that, I just added to that discussion.

How do you think we can help?

I think we can try to find a consensus on whether both categories need to be listed after all in all cases (personally, I only list both categories when the song was recorded and then released in different years). In addition, Richhoncho's definition of "single" appears to be original research (it isn't defined as such in the Single (music) article).

Summary of dispute by Richhoncho

There are only three key points here:-

1. Epert objects to me applying the guideline WP:SONG#Categories and has been removing categories contra to that guideline and therefore against community wishes.
2. There has been a long conversation on my talkpage where I have pointed out to Erpert if he wants to change the guideline, then he should take the matter up at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Songs. and not on my talkpage as I can only give my opinion - obviously I do not own the guideline (even though I thoroughly approve of it).
3. Therefore dispute resolution was not the place to come but to WP:SONGS as already suggested and ignored by Erpert.--Richhoncho (talk) 06:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Lil-unique1

Richhoncho undid my edits when I removed the song category from articles that were about singles. Personally, I feel like there isn't a definitive guideline and there's some half-baked discussions about the whole thing. I think I under Rich's point of view but it based on his own original research about the definition of a single is. Something which editors of music articles cannot agree on themselves. Its an issue that goes beyond the problem of categories to be honest. I respect Rich's edits but I think he's wrong to assume that he has a consensus for his point of view and I think its a bigger problem than this small dispute. IMO the infobox single and infobox song merged with different types e.g. "single", "promotional song" and "song". I really think its pointless classifying something as both a single and song when it cannot be a single without being song. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'll add that I said to Rich that I didn't want to push the issue because I felt like he didn't understand my POV and it was discussion that was way beyond either of us, that needed more editors to get involved and some kind of technical opinion tbh. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - { Talk } - 13:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Breakin' My Heart (Pretty Brown Eyes) discussion

SN: Rich keeps mentioning WP:SONG when I think he really means to mention WP:NSONG (WP:SONG is a WikiProject). Erpert 01:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

No I emphatically mean WP:SONG. However, if you read WP:NSONG it starts "Songs and singles are..." which is the crux of my argument - they are not the same thing. --Richhoncho (talk) 17:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

As suggested above in the template. I have re-opened a new discussion on my talkpage regarding this matter. --Richhoncho (talk) 19:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

We don't need the same discussion going on in several different forums. Erpert 00:43, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, it would probably be best if you didn't continue adding the categories in question while the dispute discussion is still active. Erpert 00:48, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Which part of "Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary." don't you understand? --Richhoncho (talk) 08:34, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

ive said everything ive wanted to say and my two pennies at Rich's talk page. I dont have anything else to say and I dont want to be part of this DRN anymore. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - { Talk } - 13:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hello! I'm Theodore, a volunteer at DRN. My apologies that it's taken so long to open this case. Lil-unique1 has indicated a desire to stop discussing this matter here. Given this, what are the other parties' stances on continuing discussion? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Theodore!, your help is most welcome. At this moment I do not think I can add anything over and above my short summary above, there are two long conversations on my talkpage which go into depth and should bring into focus what the dispute is and why. There is a shorter discussion on Erpert's page which I find illuminating. The next step must be for Erpert to respond here. --Richhoncho (talk) 06:10, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. In this case, I will close this discussion thread. If you and the other parties fail to reach a resolution at Erpert's talk page, you are welcome to return at a future date. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 03:46, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Theodore!, there was/is no ongoing discussion with Erpect except, possibly, here. Because I want closure on this, I have left a polite note on Erpect's talkpage asking him to comment here as he opened the DRN and I really don't want to continue avoiding categorizing articles because he is claiming ownership, as I am having to do at present. So I would ask you to give Erpect a reasonable time to respond just to close the matter out and not have to bring it back here because somebody "forgot" to comment. Again, thanks for your help. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:34, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

"Claiming ownership"? Sorry, I don't do that. Anyway, no one disputed that songs and singles are different, but the way you distinguish between the two seems to be just that: how you distinguish them, not necessary decided by any consensus (you keep stating there's a consensus but you never actually point to one; a diff would help...BTW, why do you spell my name differently every time?) Erpert 08:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Apologies for getting your name wrong. Purely accidental and no other reason. I have repeatedly pointed to the consensus, but you refuse to accept it. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:22, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• To clarify, are you still interested in continuing this discussion? Although it's up to you, I think participating in this process could help to resolve your dispute. If you would like to continue discussion, I will add a few more questions/comments in a little bit. If not, please let me know and I will close the thread; again, I think there is a good chance that we can work things out in this forum. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Be good to close this discussion once and for all, but I guess it's Erpert's choice. My view remains the same, as the dispute is over a guideline, the discussion should have been opened there and discussed among those with a vested interest and understanding of the guideline and I did suggest this course of action to Erpert several times. If the guideline had been changed in accordance with Erpert's ideas, then I would followed the amended guideline.

The only thing I can add is that about half of all new articles now come with the same categorization that Erpert objects to, and that is by many different editors. So guideline and practice are converging as much as they are likely to at Misplaced Pages. --Richhoncho (talk) 07:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• I would like to make a small clarification to Archon 2488's post to note that heights and weights in Canada use typically uses imperial rather than metric, and Great Britain, if I am not mistaken, tends to use imperial for height. So this is a bit wider than US vs. the world. That said, I tend to ride the fence on the issue as I (being Canadian) certainly prefer the current format, but I also recognize that this is a situation where the relevant articles cross multiple projects, each with competing standards. It is also one of those cases where there I believe some guidelines can be applied in either direction. i.e.: I think POLA could justify the status quo given the most interest in NHL players will come from North Americans who expect imperial measurements to be given as the primary. That, however, creates an issue where you'd then expect to swap everything around depending on where an athlete plays, and I find the idea of changing the formats when a player goes from North America to Europe or vice versa to be the more disruptive solution. I would generally be supportive of using the base nationality of the player to determine the primary unit of measurement. Ease of editing the infobox itself could be handled by having someone with better template coding ability than I add a parameter that defines the primary measurement, so that even if I use the "height_ft" and "height_in" parameters, it still sets the metric result as primary in the template. Further, I wonder If the {{convert}} family of templates could be modified to auto choose a primary unit based on a user's custom settings, such that all measurements using these templates render in the format preferable to the local reader. That goes well beyond the scope of this dispute, however. Resolute 16:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• The proper format to use, for consistency throughout the ice hockey project, is imperial measurements. Although written to address concerns regarding date format, I would think that the principles of WP:STRONGNAT should also apply for this situation, that being: “Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation.” Substituting “height/weight” for “date” in the previous sentence, the only English-speaking countries which have strong-ties to numerous professional ice hockey players are Canada and the United States, both of which commonly use imperial measurements for such purpose. Editors for articles with strong ties to non-English speaking counties, each of which have their own-language Wikipedias, should not force their country-specific or preferred formatting policy upon the editors and readers of English-Misplaced Pages. Dolovis (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• Why is the proper form united states customary units? IIHF uses metric, most countries that play hockey use metric and the players use metric. Metric across the ice hockey project would be more in line with the fans and wikipedia. Russia, Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Latvia and Switzerland disagree with that Hockey is mainly an English speaking sport. Some of the users seem to equate hockey and the NHL but that isn't the way hockey is viewed in many hockey playing nations. There are three countries that use united states customary units for body measures and 200 that use metric. All but two countries that participate in the World championship and the Olympics are metric. The two non metric Hockey nations shouldn't force their system of measurement on the entire hockey playing world. These arguments could be apply to nearly all Misplaced Pages articles and we still use primarily metric. There aren't very good Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian/Czech articles for a lot of the players so many people from Europe use the english articles.Talteori (talk) 18:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• I don't think he was saying that hockey is mainly an English speaking sport. What I think he was saying is that this wiki is an English wiki and that all of the main ice hockey playing English speaking nations use imperial for body metrics so per the principle of least astonishment and per WP:STRONGNAT most readers would expect to see imperial. We should be catering to the most likely reader of articles. And for NHL players especially that is going to be people from the United States and Canada because that is where those players live and play. -DJSasso (talk) 19:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
• Instead of changing the English-Misplaced Pages articles to your preferred format, perhaps you could help improve the Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian/Czech articles, since you state that they are not very good. 184.52.8.162 (talk) 20:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• As DJSasso has stated, this "dispute" only began when Talteori started changing multiple articles, primarily Swedish NHL ice hockey players who represented their country in international play at the Olympics, to his preferred format. Both the U.S. customary units and metric units are present in the infobox for a hockey player; the only "dispute" is which is displayed first. I think that the current format should remain in place, having a consistent format across all NHL players’ articles, regardless of a player's nationality. I agree with Dolovis, that editors for articles with strong ties to non-English speaking counties should not force their country-specific or preferred formatting policy upon the editors and readers of English-Misplaced Pages. 184.52.8.162 (talk) 20:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
• The articles should retain the existing format as it was prior to this edit war, per MOS:RETAIN and WP:DATERET, for now. The pages have evolved using predominantly one format, and there is currently no consensus to change it, including whether there a strong national tie between one's birthplace and one's current country of employment. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Cher (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• FraDany (talk · contribs)
• Boris Karloff II (talk · contribs)
• Lordelliott (talk · contribs)
• Light show (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Boris Karloff II and I proposed to replace current Cher's infobox picture with a more recent one because the current one has nothing to do with Cher's career at the moment. Lordelliot and Light show disagree with this.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

We have discussed this extensively on Talk: Cher and on edit summary.

How do you think we can help?

I think we can try to find a consensus.

Summary of dispute by Boris Karloff II

Last year, a brief discussion of the subject () ultimately led to User:Light show placing a 1970s publicity photo (source: "Original photo from Light Show") in the lead, although far from everyone involved was completely contented. There was general consensus that we did not have a perfectly adequate picture at disposal at that moment, so the lead remained like that.

More recently, in the course of Cher's current tour, I imported a string of new photographies from Flickr, suggesting this one for the article's lead. It displays her in one of her characteristical costumes; complying with the general requirements for lead pictures. I was promptly detained from suiting the action to the word by Light show, who eagerly insists on utilizing a picture from an earlier period of her career. After briefly arguing with Light show on the talk page, User:FraDany jumped in, supporting my argument. User:Lordelliott showed his preference for the current 1970s portrait.

It must be considered that Cher had her acting breakthrough not until 1985 and her commercial peak as a musician in 1998. She is not only still active, but released her highest-charting solo album just last year and is currently touring the US; selling out arenas. Having considerably changed her public appearance multiple times throughout her career, she does not at all look like she does on the Casablanca photo anymore. In view of that, I hold that a rather recent picture is most adequate for the discussed article's lead. Besides the afore-mentioned tour photo, I suggested this image, too; although I would rather favor the first one. --Boris Karloff II. (talk) 08:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Lordelliot

Quoting Light show from this discussion: "This is supposed to be a full biography of a singer and actress, covering a 50-year period, not an article focused on recent newsworthy appearances with candid images more suitable for today's tabloids, where papparazzi swarm and click away. A photo representing the biography and more closely relevant to her notability would be one like File:Cher - Casablanca.jpg, which shows her as she appeared during a key period in career Hence, the rationale given by an editor, more current photo generally preferred to antediluvian image, is wrong on all counts: It is not generally preferred, except for news stories, not a biography. This is especially true of people in the entertainment field." Lordelliott (talk) 15:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Light show

There's not much I'll add from my comments on the talk page. But I'll simply say that that the entire issue began when Boris Karloff II decided to change the lead image with their rationale, dif: New, recent photo from her Dressed to Kill Tour, which I reverted for the reasons stated in the previous link. A few hour later, FraDany chimed in with, "the current one is ancient and has nothing to do with Cher's career at the moment. . . she is on tour right now. Boris Karloff II. is right the current picture creates the impression that the person is a "has-been" or "dead". None of those arguments seem valid as explained on the talk page. --Light show (talk) 01:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Cher discussion

Hello, and welcome to the DRN. My first question for participants is, how many editors are for the inclusion and how many are against the inclusion. This question regards straight up numbers and not the arguments made for or against the image. Bear with me here. This is not to count !votes just to get an understanding of the situation for a clearer picture.--Maleko Mela (talk) 17:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

As of now, it's two for keeping the existing portrait image and two for adding a recent stage image. FWIW, Lordelliott, also for keeping, has been by far the major contributor to her article, with nearly 1,200 edits. --Light show (talk) 17:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I am reviewing the dispute and the images involved and will begin a discussion shortly.--Maleko Mela (talk) 23:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer assessment

This is a common issue. What image of the freely licensed, Wiki Commons pictures should we use? All of the images being suggested pass criteria for image use and licensing and each side has an argument they are passionate about, as many fans or admirers or even just interested editors might. This is what I know about lead images. You can put some on articles and never hear a thing, and maybe even get a thank you...and you can put some on that will absolutely not fly by those interested. Jerry Brown is one image dispute where I wanted to use something newer to replace the older portrait. The portrait remains there. That specific discussion had about as many or less editors but had a rough consensus. I can live with the older image,it isn't horrible. So, unless editors are able to live with one of the other editors "version" or you continue on the talk page with further discussion with, perhaps,an RFC to attract a larger community input. Trust me, if you put "Lead Image discussion" on the RFC title, it will probably draw some editors.

I am going to go ahead and refer editors back to the talk page with these basic suggestions. Lead images can be a very interesting, or more accurately, have a more interested group of editors on Misplaced Pages. Sometimes editors will create the consensus discussion and then invite editors who have participated in similar discussions on other pages. Notable artists for major comic books have a pretty sizable group of articles with editors who randomly select the last group that discussed a lead image. You have to invite every editor from the last discussion with a neutrally worded request, regardless of their !vote, it's a random selection of editors based only on a lead image discussion on another articles. But not everyone wants to go through all that trouble so, there is the RFC same thing really but you just make one post correctly formated and random editors interested will come. If the RFC fails, any editor can request DRN at that time. I will be doing a general close shortly, nut shelling the above in comment.--Maleko Mela (talk) 11:34, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Template:Islam (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Peaceworld111 (talk · contribs)
• Wiki id2 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User Wiki id2 considers that the Ahmadiyya sect should be regarded as a non-Muslim religion/sect and therefore be removed from the Template:Islam. The Ahmadiyya sect is considered a Muslim sect world over except a few countries such as Pakistan where the Ahmadis by law are not permitted to call themselves Muslims. Essentially, Wiki id2 considers that a country and its "scholars" have some copyright over the religion of Islam and that for some reason (that I struggle to understand) their view somehow over-rides the view of the rest of the world.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Tons of discussion. This discussion has cropped many different times over different pages and has been resolved various times. See for example Talk:Ahmadiyya.

How do you think we can help?

I don't think that there is much dispute in this per WP:Self-identification. The Ahmadis consider themselves to be Muslims. User Wiki id2 thinks that self-identification is a weak case.

Summary of dispute by Wiki id2

PeaceWorld111 considers the Ahmadi sect/religon to be a part of islam and therefore remain in the Template:Islam. The Ahmadiyya sect is considered a Muslim by Ahmadis. But there recognition is disputed by countries such as Pakistan (where they face discrimination) butalso countries where they do not have established population centres such as Saudi Arabia (centre of Sunni Islam) and UAE, Qatar, Egypt. While in other western countries such as UK and canada they are regarded as Muslims.

Template:Islam discussion

Hi. I am a DRN volunteer and I'd like to open discussion with a couple of questions, so that we can see what we do have agreement on. --Bejnar (talk) 19:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

What is the purpose of having an Islam template?

The same purpose as of any other religion based template, such as Template:Christianity.--Peaceworld 22:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Please state the purpose. --Bejnar (talk) 23:24, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what to say here except that it should give a really brief overview of Islam. --Peaceworld 13:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

In terms of including or excluding Ahmadiyya from the template, what is the most important Misplaced Pages policy?

• WP:Self-identification is pretty clear. The Ahmadis identify themselves as Muslims and thus should be regarded as such by Misplaced Pages. The same is the case with Mormonism and various other denominations in a variety of faiths.
• The Ahmadis are discriminated against by the government in Pakistan (e.g. if Ahmadis are subject to 3 years imprisonment if they call themselves Muslim), Saudi Arabia (e.g. Ahmadis are deported for being Ahmadis), UAE (e.g. the Ahmadiyya central site alislam.org is banned) and Egypt and hence the opinions of such countries cannot be considered as WP:NPOV. In fact reputable sources such as Campo's Encyclopedia of Islam 1, or 2 or 3 or 4 or any news article which mentions Ahmadiyya, whether it be NY Times, LA Times, BBC, The Guardian, Huffington Post or any other mainstream media, you will find that they are always discussed in the context of a Muslim sect. I have previously requested Wiki id2 to find half a dozen reputable sources, free from state intervention (which excludes Pakistani media, as calling Ahmadis Muslims will be breaking the law of the land), which discusses Ahmadis in the context of a separate religion, but he has not been able to provide any.
• WP:ASSERT is pretty clear that we should "avoid stating opinions as facts".--Peaceworld 22:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

• WP:THIRDPARTY is a useful one here. It is clear, by bullet point 2 above, that Pakistan is in no position to undertake an independent review of the case whether Ahmadis are Muslims or not.--Peaceworld 16:17, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Are some or all of the beliefs of the Ahmadiyya derived from Islam?

Totally all. The Ahmadis believe in all the fundamentals of Islam, namely the Islam#Articles of faith and Islam#Five pillars. The article Ahmadiyya is pretty clear on the issue: "Ahmadi thought emphasizes the belief that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries. Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam." I don't any further explanation is required. However, just for the sake of it, let me explain the difference. The Ahmadis believe that the Islamic prophecy concerning the coming of the Mahdi and Jesus have been fulfilled in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whereas the Sunnis are waiting the return of the Mahdi and Jesus. If there are any other differences they are too minor to mention and therefore not so relevant. However, the one thing that Wiki id2 will probably mention is that Ahmadis do not believe that Muhammad was the final prophet. However, this is debatable because the Sunnis do believe that Jesus, regarded a prophet by the Muslims is yet to descend after more than 1400 years of death of Muhammad.--Peaceworld 22:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

If the Ahmadiyya are heretical, are there other heretical sects of Islam?

I do not think Ahmadis are heretics. I think they are good people. They are religious folks. But I believe that self-identification is not a rational enough reason to declare someone a Muslim. It has to be supported by objective and rational facts. The Ahmadi reject the traditional notion of the Seal of the prophets and their "interpretation" - which I consider to actually be a seperate religious viewpoint - worth respect. Because, aside from the Ahmadi sect, no other major sect, fiqh or school of thought in Islam has said that the Ahmadi "interpretation" is actually backed up by Islamic theology, eschatology or a valid (beyond reasonable doubt) Quranic exegesis or the appropriate scholarly consensus - which acknowledges minority interpretations, except in the case of Ahmadis. Some other users remain unnamed, have unfortunately accused me of bigotry. I comprehend their concerns given that they passionately and religously consider Ahmadis a part of Islam. However, I think it is unfair to accuse me of hatred as I have clearly shown respect to them as human beings - but disagree, as do the overwhelming (all but Ahmadis ie. 99.9995%) of Muslims not due to blind faith but do you the appropriate clear scholarly consensus throughout Islamic thought, theology, literature and Quranic exegesis along with Hadithic exegesis that Ahmadis might have religious beliefs derived from traditional Islamic thought - but that they constitute a seperate religon. Just like Islam has derived principles from christianity and judaism. It is not considered a sect of Judaism or reformed christianity. Even though it believes in Jesus. But because it rejects Jesus' resurrection and being the son of God, it disagrees on fundamental Christian theological and Biblical tradition, henceforth is regarded as a seperate religion. Peace world.(Wiki id2(talk) 21:30, 6 May 2014 (UTC))

It will be difficult to find any reputable source which describes Ahmadis as heretical. What is true, however, sources do tend to say that "Ahmadis are considered heretical" by some Muslims, which is a totally different to saying that "Ahmadis are heretical". Equally, Shias are considered heretical by some Muslim, as are most other sects. It will be incorrect to label Ahmadis as heretical per WP:No Original Research. Note, however, if Ahmadis were to be regarded as such we would have to label pretty much every other sect as heretical.--Peaceworld 22:02, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a response to Wiki id2, it is totally incorrect to compare Ahmadis-Sunni/Shia relationship with that of Islam-Christianity. In terms of the fundamental beliefs, the Ahmadis totally agree with the rest of the Muslims, namely, the Articles of Faith and Five Pillars of Islam, as I stated earlier. There is no comparable similarity with Christianity and Islam. Trinity, is probably what defines Christianity. Do the Muslims too believe in Trinity? What's more, the Holy Books of the Christians and Muslims are the Gospels and the Quran respectively. Do the Ahmadis have a different Holy Book? NO. It is the Quran. The modes of worship are totally different between Christianity and Islam. On the other hand, it will be impossible to tell the difference between the prayer of Ahmadis and the rest of the Muslims.

No one is claiming that you have shown hatred. Again, you have portrayed the image that Muslims universally consider Ahmadis to be non-Muslims. That is totally incorrect. Something which I did tell you earlier is that according to a survey conducted by Pew itself, on page 93, it states that 40% of Bangladeshi Muslims consider Ahmadis to be Muslims, 25% Thailand, 16% Malaysia, 12% Indonesia, 7% Pakistan. Bare in mind, however, these countries are among the countries that most fiercely oppose Ahmadiyya in terms of human rights. There are specific cases where countries and Muslims recognize the Ahmadiyya sect. The National Peace council of Ghana consists of 13 members representing the various religious, social and academic structures of the country. Of those 13, 3 are Muslims, 1 Ahmadi (representing the Ahmadiyya Muslim Movement, since Ahmadis represent a large minority and 2 others representing the rest of the Muslims). Note the word Muslim. Another example: The Dutch Muslims recognize Ahmadiyya as Muslims.

Note also that we cannot use the theological based argument, that since there is a "scholarly" consensus that Ahmadis are non-Muslims, they should be recognized as such. First of all it totally incorrect to say that there is such a scholarly consensus. scholars are not just non-Ahmadi Muslims. There are Ahmadi and non-Muslim scholars too. And secondly, if we were to use the theological based argument, we would have to declare religions such as Judaism, Sikhism as infidels, as there is a consensus among Muslims regarding it too. --Peaceworld 13:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if my last point is clear enough: My point was that if Catholics began to define the faith of Eastern Orhodox church, the Protestants of Mormons, the Sunnis of Shias and Ahmadis, the Orthodox Jews of the Reformed Ones, Hindus of Sikhs and Jains, Shias of Bahais, Buddhists of Tibeten Buddhism we would have a total collapse of the Religious and Philosophy section of Misplaced Pages.

To further support my points above, however, let me give further examples: Why does Obama refer to Ahmadis as Ahmadiyya Muslims, Why does the Candian PM refer to Ahmadis as Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at, why is there a Ahmadiyya Muslim Caucus in the United States, why is there a Ahmadiyya Muslim Parliamentary group in the UK, why is it in Germany For the first time in Germany, a Muslim community has been granted 'corporation under public law' status.--Peaceworld 12:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there any reason to believe that the DRN volunteer is not neutral with respect to this issue?

I, Bejnar, have not edited the Islam template nor the Ahmadiyya article, nor previously participated in this discussion. I have edited and created other articles dealing with Islam, but to the best of my knowledge and memory none of the edits were related to the Ahmadiyya. --Bejnar (talk) 19:13, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

It's not appropriate to accuse a DRN volunteer of being non-neutral just because you don't like the way the discussion is going. If you have valid reasons then state them and ask the volunteer to recuse. He/she will then step aside and allow another volunteer to take the case, although in my experience what happens is that a new volunteer doesn't arrive and the case just stalls and is closed. Your choice. But don't make allegations unless you have good objective reasons and can state them clearly. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:28, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, Peaceworld111 you need to dial it back and allow the moderator to lead the discussion. It's not appropriate for you to be making new section headings and dominating the page. This page is for moderated discussion. So please allow the moderator to do their job and allow time for other involved users to respond to one of your comments before making new statements. Thank you. Bejnar please carry on. Thank you.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear User:Keithbob, I think you are mistaken. The section headings were created by the volunteer, and all I did was that I responded to them. User:Wiki id2 hasn't responded and that is why it looks like this way.--Peaceworld 18:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I did indeed create this section as part of opening discussion. Based on past experience, I wanted to disclose my past in regard to the issue, see above, and to provide a place where parties could challenge my neutrality, if so inclined, as they are entitled to do. --Bejnar (talk) 23:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Peaceworld111, I jumped the gun and I owe you and apology. Bejnar, I'm glad you are here and if your unorthodox style is working, I support you! Thanks again and my apology for misinterpreting the situation. Peace out! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

General Discussion

Just to weigh in here. 1) This would seem like an easy subject to RfC. 2) Looking at RS and the preference of the group (something WP:BLPCAT lets us look at for BLP's at least) Ahmadiyya might reasonably be called a denomination of Islam. NickCT (talk) 18:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

And I think that to do anything other than call it a denomination (whatever word we use) of Islam would be a violation of WP:NPOV - which an RfC IMHO can't overrule. Dougweller (talk) 10:42, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: We could always set up an RfC to see if this really is a violation of NPOV.  :-) NickCT (talk) 12:29, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@NickCT: Actually I would have taken this straight to WP:NPOVN myself to get a wider input. Dougweller (talk) 12:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: - Ah. Well regardless of what the correct strategy is, I hope User:Bejnar brings this to a quick resolution. The answer here seems self-evident. NickCT (talk) 12:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The fullest, and most important record of this entire dispute, is in a DR (dispute resolution) which Rococo1700 himself filed on April 8, 2012. The volunteer mediator gave Rococo1700 every opportunity to substantiate his failed argument. When Rococo1700 failed to do this, the discussion was Closed as stale after 12 days on April 20, 2014. Here is the archived record of the entire discussion:

If you read that DR, you will see that Rococo1700’s “concerns” were completely addressed with authoritative publications, secondary sources, and direct citations. Please read the mediator Wikishagnik’s comments, and those of the closing administrators. Rococo1700 clearly had his answer; he just doesn't want to hear it.

Now on May 4, 2014, Rococo1700 has filed a “new” DR discussion, which essentially re-litigates the same issues all over again - and with the same lack of secondary sources from Rococo1700. He simply wishes to assert his version of history (without providing any secondary sources) and to override nearly every other editor who has contributed to Oscar Lopez Rivera, over a period of several years. To date, he has not addressed the following set of facts – which were fully credited by the administrators in the prior DR which he filed, and which he continues to ignore.

Facts submitted in prior DR:

Oscar Lopez Rivera was not charged with armed robbery or violence. He was charged with seditious conspiracy to overthrow the United States. The court’s decision said this, precisely and with no ambiguity. Here is the citation for this case: U.S. v. Oscar Lopez et al., No. 86 CR 513 (N.D. 111).

With respect to secondary sources, you can read this article in the Huffington Post, which states that Lopez Rivera “has already served 32 years in prison for the charge of "seditious conspiracy.” Nowhere in this article, does it state that Rivera was charged with armed robbery or personal violence.

In addition, there is the book Oscar Lopez Rivera: Between Torture and Resistance, edited by Luis Nieves Falcon (Oakland, CA: PM Press, 2013). In this book, the foreword is written by Nobel Prize winner Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Here is what he wrote:

“Oscar Lopez Rivera is imprisoned for the “crime” (his quotation marks) of seditious conspiracy: conspiring to free his people from the shackles of imperial justice…My Nobel Peace laureate colleagues Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland and Adolfo Perez Esquivel of Argentina and I expressed our deep concern about the highly irregular and tainted parole hearing that had just taken place. Testimony was permitted at that hearing regarding crimes which Lopez Rivera was never accused of committing in the first place.” See: ‘’Oscar Lopez Rivera: Between Torture and Resistance’’, p. iv.

You thus have the case itself (I provided the case citation) and two secondary sources. In one of them, a Nobel Peace Prize winner specifically refers to a "tainted parole hearing” in which Lopez Rivera was confronted with charges “regarding crimes which Lopez Rivera was never accused of committing.”

Sarason (talk) 04:46, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Please by all means, if they want me to pointedly reply to the statements above and show where they are in error, I will certainly oblige. I do not particularly approve of the ad hominem attacks by Sarason and Mercy11. Oh I have now inserted a suggestion for a consensus paragraph 2 in the talk page for the article.Rococo1700 (talk) 12:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• OK, so first you were targeting Jmundo and Mercy11 as editors. Then you entered into an edit war with Jmundo that led to the article getting protected. Now you are targeting Sarason and Mercy11. Even when the article was protected, on that same day, Rococo, rather than entering into a dialogue with the other editors, you requested that an admin make additions to the article claiming that OLR was responsible for the 1977 Fraunces Tavern bombing; your request, Rococo, was declined and the admin advised you to seek consensus. When Sarason created a consensus entry, rather than presenting your point, you attacked Sarason's consensus approach. What exactly is your goal here? Your currently-ongoing and nonstoppable walls-of-text at the article's Talk Page makes it virtually impossible for the other editors to follow your objections. In addition, you are shooting a stream of new complaints about the article on a daily basis without giving editors the opportunity to carry on any sort of productive dialogue with you because before an editor has commented you have already shot out another unrelated dispute on the article. And acting, if you will, in loose cannon fashion, you have at times fired out several Talk Page subsections when your various disputes could have been written up more concisely and with better formatting following established Talk Page Guidelines. At the article's Talk Page it was proven yesterday that you were acting disengeniously with your "I was traveling" excuse on your first DR/N submission of some 2 weeks ago. I made suggestions to you on how you could improve your chances of carrying on a productive dialogue but you have, in practice, ignored them for the most part. At least another uninvolved editor has also advised you. You appear intent on just having the article read your way at any cost. In fact, you appear to have a vested interest in proving that OLR is personally, solely, and individualy responsible for the 1977 Francis Tavern bombings; your first edit in this article sought to do just that. One might even think you are somehow closely associated to Joseph F. Connor, "the son of one of the dead at Fraunces Tavern, has played an instrumental role in blocking the release of , a man he considers in part responsible for his father's death" as your entry here so conspicuously states. If so, you would be in violation of WP:COI, and this would appear to be a personal or vendetta on your part. Gee, you were even found to be editing from a PC in the Chicago area, Oscar Lopez Rivera's old neigborhood. It seems to me that your basic goal is to have the article say that "Oscar Lopez Rivera is a violent criminal", yet this is not supported by any reliable secondary source. Mercy11 (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Here is my recommended text for the second paragraph: (see modified paragraph below)

As you can see from the talk page of the article, Mercy11 and Sarason do not reach a consensus with my editing. Sarason has threatened that if I inject primary sources or original research, that I will answer for it. I am confident that my text recommendations are accurate. I would like to alter the second paragraph to read what I place below. It includes most of their text but changes the statement that OLR is non-violent to an opinion.

Now that the block has been raised. My recommended temporary compromise would be to delete the present second paragraph in the text, and then block the editing again, and to revise that paragraph. Then we can move to the third paragraph. This is going to be a long and arduous process.

Rococo1700 (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Will someone please let me know what do I have to address from Mercy11's statements above. Perhaps place it in a bulleted fashion.Rococo1700 (talk) 02:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Reanalyzing Mercy11's posting and Sarason's prior note, I am concerned about threatening insinuations by these two editors, I know this DR/N has to do with content. I would not strongly urge the administrators to blank the second paragraph and place a neutrality dispute. When two editors use threatening language, and one of them seems to want to say that he will find out by IP adresses where you have been, and when the editing involves a long-term jailed terrorist/freedom fighter, whose last jail term was prolonged by years for attempting a violent break-out out of Leavenworth, resulting in the jailing of 4-5 other persons. I think the Misplaced Pages administration needs to take this seriously. I do not back down from my text above, and that should be the main thrust of this discussion, but the stakes have changed for Sarason and Mercy11.Rococo1700 (talk) 12:21, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Rococo's use of WP:PRIMARY sources is resulting in his WP:OR violations. Some 5 editors have told him that his interpretations and edits are invalid. As for your complaint of threats or uncivility, Rococo, you are in the wrong forum. This forum adresseses article content disputes only. I also have a continued concern that Rococo does not understand the dispute resolution process at Misplaced Pages. Rococ, have you read - and followed - WP:DISPUTE? You don't just come here and ask that the an article be modified to read the way you like it and that then the article be blocked from editing. You need to engage in a civil discussion. So far your tone is belligerent. That's not helpful. Mercy11 (talk) 02:59, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• The latest entry by Rococo1700 (please see above) is a valuable and accurate illustration of the bad faith he brings to the Oscar Lopez Rivera page.

On May 7 he willfully mis-characterized my fair warnings regarding bad faith editing, and tried to misrepresent them as a "personal threat." I promptly clarified that point, and he acknowledged the clarification. Please note the time of my response and his acknowledgment. They precede his subsequent (and entirely dishonest) anxiety on this page, about "threatening insinuations" and "threatening language."

"Oh by the way Sarason, what does your threat he will answer for it entail? Are your going to get physical? Are your going to use bolded capital letters? Are you going to boot me from Misplaced Pages? Please be specific. Also next time do answer directly how the text above is inappropriate, rather than personal threats."Rococo1700 (talk) 22:56, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

"There is no threat in reminding you, and giving you fair warning, that continued bad faith editing is subject to consequent review and potential administrative action. It's all up to you." Sarason (talk) 01:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

"Thanks for the clarification, your prior warning was more vague and therfore more ominous in tone. That type of behavior is subject to consequent review and potential administrative action. Now you need to find a consensus edit, I have fowarded my suggestions, and I have called for the second paragraph to be removed if we can not reach a consensus, until one can be reached that is satisfactory to a consensus of editors. Stop with warnings and get to nitty gritty of the paragraph." Rococo1700 (talk) 02:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

As you can see, Rococo1700 now comes on this page, 10 hours later, and attempts to deceive the DR mediators -- alleging "threatening insinuations" and "threatening language" that was fully and respectfully clarified for him 10 hours earlier. With nearly every edit, Rococo1700 appears to be trolling for an argument, escalating disagreements in a dishonest fashion, opening DRs and then ignoring them when they don't go his way. It is a huge waste of editors' time...and now, unfortunately, the mediators in this DR will have to invest time, as well. Please read the prior DR which Rococo1700 filed and then ignored. Now, if this current DR does not go his way, he will probably ignore it as well.

For the sake of many editors' time, which is being hugely wasted, I hope that someone, at some point, intervenes to resolve this chronic behavior on the part of Rococo1700. Sarason (talk) 03:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• I am not sure Rococo is processing the significance of what he is doing. His behavior significantly muddies the dispute resolution process. It appears to me that there is a pattern of continuous and now, also, increasingly deteriorating intentional bad faith being practiced by him. ...First a relentless interest in labeling OLR a "violent" criminal, then a bad faith (perceived, at least) avalanche of a multitude of other content disputes fired without any opportunity for dialogue, then his dubious travel allegation claim, and now also stabbing a fellow Wikipedian in the back? Seems to me that once the seemingly ambiguous statement by Sarason was clarified by him, plus the clarification even accepted by Rococo, that he shouldn't be using than same matter against Sarason again 10 hours after the whole thing was settled. If anything, Rococo failed to assume WP:AGF from the getgo and now continues to feed his frenzy with an accussation that never was. Mercy11 (talk) 04:07, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@User:Mercy11 & Sarason - You two gotta calm down. The tone of your comments approach personal attacks. Let a fresh set of uninvolved eyes take a look at this. NickCT (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

My Consensus recommendation

Rococo1700 (talk) 04:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Neither of you addressed the consensus paragraph I suggest with even more citations. It remains a cascade of personal accusations. Again, I urge that if we have no consensus, that the second paragraph of the article be deleted until consensus can be reached. Here is my suggested entry:

President Clinton's offer of clemency to former FALN members, including Oscar, was strongly opposed by overwhelming bipartisan majorities in both the US House of Representatives (311-41) and Senate (95-2) While President Clinton and others defended the clemency offered to Oscar stating that López Rivera was never convicted of specific crimes that resulted in deaths or injuries. and that López Rivera was never convicted of any act of violence. Others point out that Oscar Lopez was convicted of violent acts, including armed robbery, which is considered by the Department of Justice as a violent crime.. They consider as additional evidence that he is a violent criminal, that the conspiracy for which he was convicted included being:

key trainer in bombing, sabotage and other techniques of guerilla warfare. He has set up a series of safehouses and bomb factories across the country, (with) literally hundreds of pounds of dynamite and other forms of high explosive, blasting caps, timing devices, huge caches of weapons and stockpiles of ammunition, silencers, sawed-off shotguns, ... and the proceeds of the armed robberies.

1. Congressional Record — House H8019
2. "Congressional Record — Senate S18018
3. Puerto Rican Nationalists Freed From Prison. Charles Babington. Washington Post. 11 September 1999. Retrieved 2 June 2013.
4. Arecibo clamó por la libertad de Oscar. Gerardo G. Otero Ríos. Primera Hora. 29 May 2013. Retrieved 29 May 2013.
5. Free Oscar Lopez Rivera. Camaradas El Barrio. 2014.
6. Free Oscar Lopez Rivera. National Boricua Human Rights Network. 2014.
7. "Eleven Puerto Rican Nationalists Freed from Prison". Washington: CNN. September 19, 1999.
8. Brooklyn Group Rallies for Release of Puerto Rican Political Prisoner. Jeanine Ramirez. NY1 Warner Cable News. 25 February 2014.
9. The Unrepentant Terrorist, by Ron Kolb, 12.22.10 for The American Spectator.
10. New York Times article By Nathaniel Sheppard Jr, Special to the New York Times Published: July 25, 1981.
11. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.
12. Federal Bureau of Investigation, uniform crime reports.
13. House Report 106-488, page 21.

• I'm sorry, but since this is a DR page, I believe we should let the DR volunteer consider the issue that was filed by Rococo1700, and the responses that were given. Any other discussions should be reserved for the Oscar Lopez Rivera talk page...or else this DR will become unreadable and unmanageable by the volunteer.

Sarason (talk) 05:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Angela Merkel (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs)
• IIIraute (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion on talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Help users involved work out the relevant issues, and come to a compromise solution. What makes the dispute difficult is that an inclusion of an image is essentially an "either/or" kind of situation which makes arriving at compromise difficult. You can't "include two-thirds" of the image nor can we alter the image in some way to satisfy everybody.

Summary of dispute by Volunteer Marek

Summary of dispute by IIIraute

Angela Merkel discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note: I'm not involved in the content dispute, but am merely an uninvolved admin and in that capacity I have warned Mostlyoksorta several times on his page for personal attacks against IIRaute. Normally of course I wouldn't come here to mention such a thing, but after MK's poisoning of the well against IIRaute above, in the first section of their "Summary of dispute," I just want to give a link to the discussion between me and MK which both the users refer to above, and which neither of them gives a usable link to it. I don't altogether agree with MK's description of it as "resolved", but please check for yourselves if you think it matters, DR volunteers. (IIRaute has given a vulnerable dynamic link, now dead; MK doesn't link to the section in question at all, but merely gestures at the history of his now blanked talkpage.) P. S., IIRaute and MK, both of you please take a look at the instructions here for how to produce permanent links to page sections, whether they're still on the page or not. You won't believe how simple it is!

That said, it would be much better if both parties focused exclusively on the content issue here on this board; it's what it's for. Bishonen | talk 16:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC).

Note: Thanks Bishonen, just so I understand your intervention here, since both IIIraute and I referenced your warnings, above. How is it that I 'poisoned the well' in my discussion, but IIIraute's discussion (which was posted prior to mine) directly linking to your warning, in the first line, is not 'poisoning the well'? I am only curious so that I can continue to guide myself according to your warnings, because it would seem to me that his linking to your warning, and my statements are either both 'poisoning the well' or both not 'poisoning the well.' What made my actions offensive enough to get your reprimand on this content focused page? I just want to know that so I can continue to guide myself appropriately. Since your warning, I decided to stop engaging on the talk page with IIIraute and bring our content dispute here so a neutral person could here the evidence. I believe that was appropriate. Just trying to learn. Thanks. (Mostlyoksorta (talk) 16:42, 7 May 2014 (UTC))

If you don't see any difference between on the one hand posting an uncommented link, as IIRaute did (which you refer to as "continuously pounding on" an issue which you claim has been "resolved" at your talkpage), and on the other hand your own description of events at the German wikipedia, of another thread on this page, etc, I really don't think I can help you, and I'm not going to be drawn into further discussion here. We'll have to hope your virtuous protestations that you only want to learn impress the DR volunteers. Bishonen | talk 17:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC).

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

PROCEDURAL QUESTION: Can an IP editor, with an address from which no edits to Misplaced Pages have ever previously come, validly claim to have discussed this on a Talk page. There is no way other editors can check this, nor see what comments this editor has already made. HiLo48 (talk) 07:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

On the water fluoridation controversy i was all the IP starting with 109 and 79 (my internet provider has a dynamic IP) Actually I'm the only IP editor concerning the "Additions" sections.

The last line of the section "Note to Israeli IP 79.* and 109.*" i wrote "Small note :I have registered to wikipedia (the original IP editor), with the following signed nick. User:LarryTheShark"

Then i started discussion in the water fluoridation article under that username. Unfortunately my registered user account was blocked during the talk page discussions, in what seemed to have a very strong censorship flavor to it. (same ip editor)79.182.151.40 (talk) 08:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

So, you are editing here as a blocked user. I see no point in discussing this any further. It's up to an Admin to action this now. HiLo48 (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware this was forbidden (hence my willingness of full disclosure). I have just requested an unblock on the registered account. I ask the supervising admin here, to please wait for a short while, to see if this block is lifted, so i can continue this important DRN. thank you (same ip editor)109.65.115.20 (talk) 09:42, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

ADMIN NOTE. I have declined LarryTheShark's unblock request. Larry, please read my reasoning on your page. You'll have to continue this DRN if and when you succeed in getting unblocked in the future (I've suggested waiting at least three months before you try again), or rather, you'll have to open a new DRN, because this one should be closed now. Bishonen | talk 10:34, 8 May 2014 (UTC).

Location of dispute

• Water fluoridation (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Yobol (talk · contribs)
• Guy (talk · contribs)
• LeadSongDog (talk · contribs)
• Zad68 (talk · contribs)
• Doc James (talk · contribs)
• Daffydavid (talk · contribs)
• HiLo48 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The scope of the dispute also concerns Water fluoridation controversy article. The core of the dispute I believe revolves around WP:WORLDVIEW. There is a systematic bias in those two articles towards the pro water fluoridation view of the heavily water fluoridated nations; USA and Australia, to the point that it looks like an advocacy advertisement. (WP:PROMOTION) Any information that sheds negative light or doubt on the practice is immediately reverted. And thus WP:Undue is being misused as an excuse to censor mainstream information that doesn't conform to these two countries perception of public water fluoridation. In the water fluoridation article, multiple scientific references contradicting facts in article are shunned. The European Union official position on public water fluoridation is ignored. etc. In the Controversy article, it is impossible to even mention the most notable group against water fluoridation, even a current health minister in a western country that recently decided to end fluoridation is shunned. Just to put things in perspective - the vast majority of the world does not practice water fluoridation including 95% of Europe. some countries that had water fluoridation ended it.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

i had an RfC on the water fluoridation controversy talk page

How do you think we can help?

The additions made on the water fluoridation article by me are legit and important and give the full view of water fluoridation practice in the scientific literature https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Water_fluoridation&diff=602718307&oldid=602716678

Two additions I made in the Water fluoridation controversy strikingly conform to WP:RS and WP:Notability https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Water_fluoridation_controversy&diff=602449209&oldid=602446383

Summary of dispute by Yobol

Summary of dispute by JzG

Mediation should be rejected per WP:FORUMSHOP.

An anonymous editor wants to add a political act in order to imply a scientific conclusion. The problem has been patiently explained, but he does not like the answer - at least, not as long as it remains "no". They have tried several ways to insert this, and consistently failed to achieve consensus.

The claim that the water fluoridation article is advocating fluoridation, is specious. The scientific consensus is that fluoridation is safe and effective. There have always been those who rail against "polluting our precious bodily fluids (see especially List of conspiracy theories#Water fluoridation) and we have an entire article on the fluoridation "controversy" (it is politically, not scientifically, controversial).

There will always be a steady stream of editors who want our content on water fluoridation to more closely reflect a conspiracist and scientifically untenable world-view. There will always be, as we see here, a decent number of Wikipedians who will explain to them why that will not happen.

The root cause of the problem is the false equivalence given to the views of anti-fluoridationists and the scientific community. The scientific consensus, by definition, incorporates all significant valid viewpoints. It develops over time in response to new data. In maters of science, the scientific consensus view is inherently the neutral point of view for Misplaced Pages purposes. To "balance" that with anti- views is to compromise fundamental policy.

As the IP acknowledges, he has been beating this drum for a long time. Guy (Help!) 09:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by LeadSongDog

Summary of dispute by Zad68

Summary of dispute by Doc James

Summary of dispute by Daffydavid

Summary of dispute by HiLo48

water fluoridation discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Autism Research Institute (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nchs 89 (talk · contribs)
• Alinoé (talk · contribs)
• MrBill3 (talk · contribs)
• Bhny (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Updates by unbiased third parties are not being permitted. Legitimate research organization is being slandered by editors with an agenda. They have no current citations that link their assertions to evidence, but they delete and override legitimate updates, tagging the page as an "advertisement" and writing statements about what the organizations "subscribes" to and "believes" without citations that quote the organization. A past president of the org - Bernie Rimland (d. 2006) did explore vaccine causation and chelation theories surrounding Autism treatment but he is long-deceased - current leadership has explained its commitment to following research wherever it leads. This page could have a "past history" section that explores the history of it's founder, but it links to the founder's wiki page. Perhaps repeating that information on the organization site is redundant. Other organizations have reformed with new information - can a shift in opinion in light of new facts be facilitated on Misplaced Pages?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

It appears several well-meaning editors attempted to update with facts after a COI occurred in March. Unfortunately, the COI appears to have created animosity. Perhaps everyone needs to hit the 'reset' button and update the page objectively.

How do you think we can help?

Assertions need proper attribution. If editors assert an organization espouses a philosophy - particularly a controversial or risky one - they need to include links that prove the individual or organization said so. As written, this entry attributes a number of "beliefs" to this group without linking to documents that show the leadership of the organization subscribes to them. If links documenting the past leadership's perspective are to be included that would be appropriate "history"

Summary of dispute by Alinoé

Summary of dispute by MrBill3

Summary of dispute by Bhny

The article had been fairly stable until this edit-] where an employee of Autism Research Institute started removing criticism and making the article mirror the company's website. I pointed out the COI problem and the editor eventually ceased editing, only to be replaced by a few more single purpose accounts. Bhny (talk) 13:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

slanderous statements discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.