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Each day we discover new examples of dysfunction of the "internet community" system. Group behaviour is something fascinating but that should frighten all of us. Don't forget that the accusations that target you are just the results of such social mechanisms that lead to the lynching of the black sheep. Despite the basic and clever rules that were written to manage wikipedia, writing an encyclopaedia in such a context is more than a challenge. Good continuation. For your own wellness, but for no other reason, I advise you to self-ban from this article and topic. ] (]) 04:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Each day we discover new examples of dysfunction of the "internet community" system. Group behaviour is something fascinating but that should frighten all of us. Don't forget that the accusations that target you are just the results of such social mechanisms that lead to the lynching of the black sheep. Despite the basic and clever rules that were written to manage wikipedia, writing an encyclopaedia in such a context is more than a challenge. Good continuation. For your own wellness, but for no other reason, I advise you to self-ban from this article and topic. ] (]) 04:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
:I virtually did so right away I think. I said I wouldn't restart the article quite a while ago now. And I do also hereby self-ban myself from all topics relating to Jews and Judaism, which were never my interest at all. I also think Producer should be banned from that topic, but that banning either of us from the topic of Communism is objectively a bad idea. <font face="Eras Bold ITC">-- ] <span style="color:#464646">(])</span></font> 11:37, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I usually reply to posted messages here, but if the message is important I'll notify you on on your talkpage as well.
If I posted a message on your talkpage I will reply there, but feel free to notify me on my talk if you feel it is urgent.
I'd prefer it if noone removed content here, but naturally I have no objections if it's just grammar.
Please don't revert my edits on this page.
Finally: no insults. I can take criticism as much as the next guy, but outright personal attacks will be reverted and reported.
Director is away on vacation and may not respond swiftly to queries.
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◅ PRODUCER (TALK) is wishing you a MerryChristmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!
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I realize we have a legitimate disagreement of opinion here, and I'd like to resolve it in a reasonable way. Rather than spreading it out to a million pages, Talk:Leon Trotsky seems like the best place to discuss this, and get third opinions, so it's not just you and me.--Pharos (talk) 05:11, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Well good day to you, Jehochman. I would expect the details (or at least the basic reason) would accompany the block, but since they did not, I look forward to them eagerly. And I'm sure they'll be very good "details" indeed - because if this is a joke, its not a very good one. I'm led to believe abuse of admin privileges to indeff block long-serving editors on a whim is generally frowned upon. -- Director (talk) 16:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I see. I hope you're aware of how inappropriate this action is, on how many separate levels?
#1 Firstly, from what I am reading of the thread you linked, you are WP:INVOLVED in the discussion regarding the relevant dispute at hand. You've made it abundantly clear you are heavily biased regarding the ongoing content dispute, before blocking the opponents of the side you fancy.
#2 Secondly, indeffing users on grounds of perceived "POV-pushing", without discussion, is against communal norms and policies. I dare say perhaps especially if the users have almost double your own contributions to the project and have been expanding it for almost a decade. I pushed no POV, in fact practically everything I did over there has been restoring the status quo ante, against changes generally opposed on the talkpage by Producer, myself, and a slew of other users you seem to have forgotten to block. As for your "antisemite" remarks, I believe they're plainly sanctionable.
#3 Thirdly: said lack of discussion renders users accused of misconduct incapable of defending themselves, which might make it easier to miss things like this SPI report. Or this one. You also might try not posting a discussion I never heard of or participated in as evidence of my being a sock of Producer.
Now, I am biased of course, but so far as I can see nothing you posted demonstrates any kind of misconduct, beyond advocating an article alongside fourteen other people. Frankly I think if anyone should be sanctioned - its you, for abusing admin tools, as well vicious slander and personal attack. The more I read of that sad exchange over on Jim's talk, the more it seems to me you fancy yourself some kind of antisemite-hunting superhero.
Naturally I don't expect you will reverse your action, but this is quite blatant misuse of admin tools and I will of course be appealing. -- Director (talk) 19:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Please relax the accusations and focus on the correctness or incorrectness of your own behavior. That's my advice for filing a successful appeal. Checkuser does not prove accounts are unrelated. You could be two people working together, or one person editing from two network locations or using a proxy. Checkuser is not any sort of magic. Jehochman20:19, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, but its kind of hard to "focus on my behavior" when you've got nothing but vague nonsense to go on from the block rationale. I can only really point out that I can't see any TE or POV-pushing in anything you posted, and that the block is suspicious. I will also request an evaluation as to whether you are, in fact, WP:INVOLVED. Though I agree that personal attacks and abuse of admin tools as such, are not related to the matter at hand.
As "flawed" as checkuser might be, its objectively a bit more to go on than "they might be working together!", with "they agree on this talkpage!" as support. As are the statements of virtually anyone who's worked with Producer or myself. -- Director (talk) 20:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
You have to admit that the user names are really similar, and you both capitalize all the letters. It's like you are trying to show you are two peas in the same pod. I've linked to three discussions where you and/or PRODUCER are posting many, many times, both pushing the same point of view. If anybody reads those pages carefully, I think they will come to the same conclusion I did, that both accounts should be blocked until there is an agreement about how to prevent further problems.
Questions for you to address:
Why do you and PRODUCER have such similar user names? Are you friends or otherwise working together?
Why does Jews and Communism look so much like the article on Metawiki. ?
(edit conflict) All that said, I will point out this is the first time I ever heard of metapedia, and if Producer did in fact copy content from that site I am prepared to re-nominate the article for deletion myself. So far as I can see, however, that's just more of that distasteful slander I'm reading so much of: the Metapedia article was expanded through the typical "biaspedia" procedure of mirroring cherry-picked Misplaced Pages content - almost a monthafter the Misplaced Pages article was created by Producer. Before its expansion in March the article bore no resemblance to Misplaced Pages's article (I'd post the diffs but the site is apparently blacklisted). Its good to know Metapedia is apparently a place I can use to get anyone I dislike indeff blocked, by mirroring their contributions there. -- Director (talk) 20:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree with DIREKTOR that indeffing users who edited wikipedia for so many years, without any previous discussion, is against communal norms.
Important note: I am involved editor, not only in J+C dispute, but also in many other disputes with DIREKTOR and PRODUCER, often as opposed to them. I don't say I disagree with your action, but I just think that communal norms should be followed, especially if they really deserve to be banned. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:21, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Don't bother with thanking. There is nothing mixed in my post, though I might have been clearer. The point is simple: the bigger misdeeds people are accused for, the more important is to follow the norms to sanction them.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Responding to Senator McCarthy's inquiries above:
I explained that about fifty separate times, and I find it outrageously insulting that you indeff blocked me first, and asked me about it later. My username refers to a "director" in the sense of a business executive. You can tell by the use of the letter "K". Its a Serbo-Croatian word that can only mean director (business). Producer's name is in English, and is apparently derived from film-making terminology. Its also an appropriate pun, since he has apparently "produced" quite a bit of content on this project . Why are the names capitalized? Well mine is capitalized because that's my childhood nickname (in an ironic sense), and its simply the way in which I used to sign into video games, which back in the day did not have lowercase - if I must go "full disclosure" here! Why Producer capitalized his username, I have no idea.
Because the psycho Nazis at that insane asylum selectively mirrored the Misplaced Pages article! A month later. As biaspedias usually do.
No, Senator. But I don't think it can be improved at all unless the participants stop trying to change it through edit-warring, and respect basic Misplaced Pages behavioral guidelines.
Because the standing consensus at the Jewish Bolshevism article (which I opposed!) is that the article does not include the topic. That's why the article was created in the first place. As to why The Four Deuces advocates diametrically opposite points of view whenever it suits him - you'll have to ask him that.
Because, so far as I can see, its written through strict and rigorous adherence to highest-quality reliable sources.
I like the tone of your answers, even though I don't agree with your point 5. Nevertheless, I'm going to unblock you. One bit of a warning though: Pharos is cleaning up Jews and Communism. Pharos is another very experienced editor with a good reputation. Please don't obstruct his work. Thank you. Jehochman22:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I am not involved in any way in editing the article in question, but have offered (as I recall) some advice on the talk page. I want to thank User:DIREKTOR for his (relatively) calm response. I also want to thank User:Jehochman for acting promptly in what he clearly believes was in defense of WP, and for unblocking DIREKTOR now. I think it is important for everyone to continue to focus on WP:AGF. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:22, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Jehochman's "bit of warning" just above launched AGF out the window for me. Whether or not Pharos' edits are beneficial, it seems to me Jehochman may well be using his admin tools to intimidate participants in a content dispute, in order to render an outcome he openly favors. -- Director (talk) 22:28, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
No editorial outcome is pre-ordaned by my actions. My suggestion not to obstruct Pharos (or any editor) from improving the article is good advice for you (or any other editor). Please give him a chance and see in total what results, then discuss any diagreements. Jehochman22:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
These diffs show the type of edit that is evidence of WP:OWN and WP:BATTLE. I predict that if the editing dispute on Jews and Communism continues, the result will be arbitration and bans. If you don't want to be one of the editors who gets banned, please take the high road. I strongly recommend that you personally follow a zero revert rule. If you see an edit you don't like, go to the talk page and calmly, politely explain why and wait for other editors to respond. If any editor refuses to discuss, they are setting themselves up to be the ones sanctioned. Think long term, not about the article content of the next minute. Finally, you need to recognize that you won't get your way even half of the time. Make suggestions and take it in stride if they aren't adopted. It is better to get one third of what you want and have it stick, than to go for 100% and get nothing. Jehochman14:22, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I tend to think they're evidence of WP:BRD and WP:CONS. Jehochman, the way to stabilize the article is to impose that policy on the participants. Simply following policy that embodies a lot of experience in conflict resolution. Anyone editing repeatedly to introduce changes that don't (yet) have consensus, or are merely still discussed - should be blocked. For a day, or two days.
Upholding policy. Its very, very simple, and it would be very, very effective. 0RR, if you'll pardon, is a terrible idea: I had to take one glance at the article to notice IZAK and others had already broken it, trying to take advantage of your roughing Producer and me up.
Hopefully it won't get to ARBCOM (I do know what that means), but if it becomes necessary, then so be it. I've had my share of experience over there, and I like to think the place has a function beyond being some kind of boogeyman. That said, I take your point, and I myself have decided to go by 1RR per day (at most, ofc). As always, I will certainly not revert-war for any new edits that are opposed on the talkpage.
Re Pharos, I appreciate your advice in modifying my (admittedly inappropriate) attitude, and I will certainly do my best to assume more good faith with regard to the user. However, I must ask: do you happen to know Pharos? Off-Wiki, I mean. -- Director (talk) 07:00, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I believe we live in the same part of the world and have met at a wiki meetup, but otherwise, no. I don't even remember his name is real life. Jehochman11:37, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Ah; my sock sense was tingling, apologies :). Used to go around hunting socks, with some success, if I do say so myself.
Well, all things considered, forgive me if I see it as rather ironic that you're more closely "associated" with Pharos than I with Producer. -- Director (talk) 16:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Alarmed
I am alarmed by this edit . You should never reference another editor's religion, race or nationality to challenge their edits or worse to suggest excluding them. This diff is ground to ban you from Misplaced Pages. Please remove it swiftly. Jehochman16:44, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I want it crystal clear: I did NOT suggest anyone's edits should be challenged, nor that anyone should be excluded, based on their religious beliefs. I suggested, as I had before, that IZAK is not a useful contributor, and should go away, NOT because of his religion, but because of his agenda-driven TE and POV-pushing. And that, I believe, is perfectly clear from my post. It is entirely irrelevant to me what religion he may subscribe to. What matters to me is that he follows policy, that he doesn't edit-war, or disrupt the talkpage.
Stating someone is religious, and is pushing a right-wing, religious agenda, is perhaps not entirely civil, but so far as I know - it takes a very liberal interpretation of policy to ban an editor for it from this project. The kind of "liberal" interpretation that an involved user might have.
Which brings me to my next point: you are very much WP:INVOLVED in that article. That is not really disputable at this point. I perceive you as biased towards a particular content outcome, and with regard to your off-Wiki acquaintances. According to WP:ADMIN, you are not qualified to issue sanctions to fellow involved users. Equally, you should not try to threaten and intimidate other users through "warnings". That is abuse of admin status.
This is setting aside that your insinuations and accusations, being little more than unsubstantiated opinions, are in effect perI think it is, in that I have stricken my request for IZAK to cease participating, and have made it clear my opposition to the user is not based on his religion or ethnicity, but rather his pushing a political agenda through edit-warring and TE. -- Director (talk) 18:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)sonal attacks. When you say to someone he is pushing antisemitic propaganda, or presuming to exclude editors based on their religion - you are slandering that user.
I've reworded the post somewhat, to make my position clearer. And to avoid malicious misrepresentation of my comment. -- Director (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Frivolous invocation of WP:INVOLVED is not helpful. It is classic WP:BATTLE behavior. Look, you just need to strike through the piece of your comment where you mention IZAK's religion/ethnicity/race (whatever you want to call it). That's just irrelevant to the discussion and will only get you in hot water. You are welcome to discuss the edits. Jehochman19:36, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
"Not helpful"? I'm not attempting to be helpful, I am trying to preempt (what I perceive as) further WP:ADMINABUSE. You may view this as WP:BATTLE if you like, but I didn't indeff block you with no real rationale. Whether it is indeed "frivolous" or not, I myself believe its quite clear you are WP:INVOLVED in the article, not only on your own account, but also with regard to off-Wiki acquaintances you "warned" me not to revert. Requesting you not threaten to use your admin tools as if policy does not explicitly state you shouldn't (community ban? really?). If this goes on, obviously I'll have to see if I'm correct by requesting feedback on this whole issue.
You've been needlessly hostile to me. What good thing does that attitude accomplish? Is it the truth? No, I have no relationship with Pharos other than that I met him once, and I recognize he's been an editor since 2004 and he has a sterling reputation. Is it mutually beneficial? No, you're harming yourself. Please rethink. Thank you for removing the concerning comment. Jehochman11:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I honestly apologize, but I guess I'm not very friendly because the majority of our interactions consist of you indefinitely blocking me from the project, and then talking about banning me. I hope you can see how that might not be the best foundation for a productive relationship. Now, if you'd asked me your questions before blocking me.. -- Director (talk) 11:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
The second time I asked before blocking you, and we seem to have resolved the matter. On that basis I hope we can go forward. Jehochman13:42, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
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Director, I'm very happy that you have finally come to the realization that we were all "spending months in discussion on absolutely nothing." That's exactly how I feel. What really happened, whether you realize it or not, is that you blindly supported Producer (I have no idea why) and when the tide of support turned against him, you all of a sudden felt the need to change sides. Why do you "honestly feel nauseous" after reading a comparison? Why does it matter that the article was copied from an antisemitic site? Why does it matter where it came from? Any reasonable person should be able to look at information and decide for themselves whether the information is worthwhile, or propaganda, or whatever. I wonder if it may have something to do with being on the opposite side of the world (from me) and how propaganda is presented to you in your country compared to how propaganda is presented in my country. In any case, I'm really happy that you're able to see things differently, even though I don't understand your reasoning for changing your mind. I hope you know that I was giving you a hard time simply because it was so much fun, and also because you were sooooooo wrong! :-) I like you much better now that you agree with me. lol USchick (talk) 18:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't "sooo wrong", was I? :) I still think if the sources make the connection, then so should we. We have lots of articles like that.. But I'll be damned if I'll support an article based, even in part, on an an essay of that sort. As I said over there, my position is WP:Blow it up and start over. But I don't plan to be doing any "starting over" myself, though. Imo, if we do ever restart this thing, we should come to a consensus on reliable sources beforehand. -- Director (talk) 10:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you
I said thanks on my talk page but I want to make sure that you see a message from me saying thank you for my barnstar! It is very gracious of you and I am really touched.Smeat75 (talk) 23:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to second the sentiment of appreciation. Not everyone is able to change course so radically in such circumstances; in the face of a revelation that makes them as uncomfortable as this one clearly made you, some people will just find any way to deny or rationalize. You didn't and, despite all of the acrimony over that article and some misgivings that I had about your perspectives on things, when it came down it, you acted in a conscionable manner in the face of those unpleasant facts. Though I tried to stay out of the actual content debate until late in the game to focus on trying to advocate civility first as it broke down on the talk page, I think I can still speak for everyone when I say I'm glad we are all no longer divided on the issue. Sorry the situation had to end so uncomfortably for you, but at least we can all chalk it up to an educational experience. Snowtalk05:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Fellas, the one thing I value more than anything else is rationality. If I perceive the objective point of view as being sidelined on the basis of emotion and personal sentiment - I will defend it to the last. It only follows that I in turn try not to be the one to get unduly attached to any viewpoint.
Yup. This wasn't a pleasant experience (could have finished three different projects by now..), but I guess it'll learn me to do more research before supporting something so strongly. My apologies again. -- Director (talk) 09:56, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I just wanted to say to ignore some of the editors who seem bent on making this personal. I know it's difficult(believe me), but it's probably better in the long run. After all, I ignored some posts directed at me from a certain someone. :-) In any case, have a good day. Dave Dial (talk) 15:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree with the above. There sure seem to be a lot of bad feelings out there. I think that what happens is that people take their eye off the ball. forget that it's all about content, that it's not about extracting apologies and acts of contrition (particularly since you've already apologized, which wasn't even absolutely necessary, as you had taken a stance in good faith). I'm no scholar on the subject. What I saw here was an article that was at the top of any Google search, an article that, as you aptly put it, made me a bit nauseous. It gave me a queasy feeling in my gut. But we have to rely on Misplaced Pages processes, and over time the process worked (or at least it seems to be working). More eyeballs came to the article. Smeat, after walking out, returned and made the discovery that he made. And you, Director, took an objective evaluation of the article and decided that yes, it originated on a racist website, and we can't have that. No one can reasonably expect more from you than what you've already done. Coretheapple (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Each day we discover new examples of dysfunction of the "internet community" system. Group behaviour is something fascinating but that should frighten all of us. Don't forget that the accusations that target you are just the results of such social mechanisms that lead to the lynching of the black sheep. Despite the basic and clever rules that were written to manage wikipedia, writing an encyclopaedia in such a context is more than a challenge. Good continuation. For your own wellness, but for no other reason, I advise you to self-ban from this article and topic. Pluto2012 (talk) 04:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I virtually did so right away I think. I said I wouldn't restart the article quite a while ago now. And I do also hereby self-ban myself from all topics relating to Jews and Judaism, which were never my interest at all. I also think Producer should be banned from that topic, but that banning either of us from the topic of Communism is objectively a bad idea. -- Director (talk) 11:37, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
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