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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 29 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 27 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 96 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 75 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 66 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 57 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 50 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC_Science-Based_Medicine

(Initiated 35 days ago on 7 December 2024) slowed for a while Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done Seraphimblade 10:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Wicked (2024 film)#RfC on whether credited name or common name should be used

(Initiated 31 days ago on 11 December 2024) Participation mostly slowed, should have an independent close. Happily888 (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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Deletion discussions

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 22 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 31#Category:Disambig-Class Star Trek pages

(Initiated 11 days ago on 31 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 1#Category:Category-Class 20th Century Studios pages of NA-importance

(Initiated 10 days ago on 1 January 2025) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 20:50, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 108 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 74 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 65 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 45 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:You Like It Darker#Proposed merge of Finn (short story) into You Like It Darker

(Initiated 14 days ago on 27 December 2024) Proposed merge discussion originally opened on 30 May 2024, closed on 27 October 2024, and reopened on 27 December 2024 following the closure being overturned at AN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:22, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

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Category pages will be movable soon

Effective May 22nd, category pages will become movable. Although members of the category will still have to be fixed manually, the revision history of the description page can be preserved when renaming categories. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Is there more info on this? Lugnuts 09:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

There's bugzilla:5451, bugzilla:28569, and gerrit:111096. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

It would be better if the new right move-categorypages was restricted to admins; the linked page says it will be available to all users. Currently, categories are moved only through WP:CFD, and the page which instructs the bots to do this (WP:Categories for discussion/Working) has been full-protected since 2007. Allowing any editor to move the category pages (without a corresponding ability to fix the category entries) risks causing havoc :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree - should be restricted to admins. DexDor (talk) 15:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind that all editors can already cut-and-pasmove category pages. All this would do is let them bring the category page's history with it. It wouldn't let them perform mass recategorizations. Because of this, I don't see a need to restrict the right, but if there's consensus to, I will prepare a configuration change request. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure, they can cut-and-paste, but not many do, because experienced editors know that cut-and-paste is deprecated. Removing that barrier will increase the number of c+p moves of categories. I do think it should be admin-only. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

So at the moment only inexperienced editors get the "right" (through taboo) to move categories? Extending to experiecned editors sounds good. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:16, 13 May 2014 (UTC).

(Sigh). Inexperienced editors do all sort of things they shouldn't do; that does not mean that they have a right to do them. It just means that we don't WP:BITE them too hard while they learn the ropes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:34, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe a separate group for this; it wouldn't be suitable for inexperienced editors, or for all administrators, but could be useful for editors involved in categorisation but not interested in adminship, or who would fail RFA for reasons such as lack of article writing or AFD experience (similarly, "suppressredirect" could be useful for experienced editors involved in reviewing articles for creation or new page patrol). Peter James (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. We'd need broad consensus for that though. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:30, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It's "assigned to user and sysop by default" - will that be the default here or will it not be assigned to any group here without consensus? Peter James (talk) 21:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It will be assigned to user and sysop here unless we get consensus to change it. (The move right is still needed as well, so you'll need to be autoconfirmed to move categories even though the "user" group has the move-categorypages right.) Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

gerrit:111096 mentions a category-move-redirect-override option. Will it be implemented here? - Eureka Lott 20:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. It's already set up at MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. Would it make sense to add {{R from move}} there? - Eureka Lott 20:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. We don't do that for category redirects now, and it's not a "real" redirect. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

No reason not to - maybe display or categorise them differently with a new template "Category redirect from move" or added parameters based on namespace detection. Peter James (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe we could add a move=1 parameter to Template:Category redirect. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:30, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

That's probably better, if it will only be used on pages containing that template. Peter James (talk) 21:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with BHG: this needs to either be an 'Admins Only' right, or something along the lines of the 'Template Editor' special right - and if it's the latter it needs to be the former until the "broad consensus for that" is achieved. As it is, this is going to allow the sockvandtrolls to willy-nilly move categories about; we shouldn't wait until we see Category:Presidents of the Royal Statistical Society renamed to Category:Crap to acknowledge that is is otherwise going to happen. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:34, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
  • How is this any different than what the (autoconfirmed) sockvandtrolls can do to articles, templates, user pages, and anything except categories and files today? Also, the damage would be no worse than if they copied and pasted the description to the "new" name and replaced the old description with a redirect, which they can do anyway. Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:05, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
    • @Jackmcbarn different from what they can do today, because editors know that copy-paste moves are not accepted, so most are reluctant to do it. Adding a move button makes it appear legit.
      Different from articles in several ways: a) categories pages are rarely edited, so they are on very few watchlists; b) moving an article affects that article, but moving a category page can wreck the navigation system for many articles.
      Different from templates, because high-visibility templates are routinely protected, whereas categories are not.
      Please, Jack, there are probably only a dozen or two editors who routinely monitor large swathes of the category system. Bushranger and I are both amongst that number, and we are both alarmed about this. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:50, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I've submitted bugzilla:65221 and gerrit:132947. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Jackmcbarn. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:42, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: Note that it's been decided that with the new discussion here, we don't have a clear enough consensus to make the change. See the bug for more details. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

By the way, if anyone wants to play with this to see exactly how it works, it's live now at http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org/ (note that accounts aren't shared between here and there). Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:13, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure the new right should be admin only - instead it would probably make sense to be admins & trusted users. That is, admins should have it by default, and admins should then be able to turn it on for trusted users who ask for it, and take it away upon misuse or complaint. That scheme seems to work OK for other rights. If moving cats is a particularly sensitive area, then the bar for who gets it should be set fairly high. BMK (talk) 04:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Going to agree with BMK because this opens to more issues and some really difficult headaches if anyone wanted to be malicious. A minimal dose of caution until the ramifications, exploitation and countermeasures are better understood is not a bad thing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:58, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Going to disagree here. Moving categories is essentially bypassing WP:CFD where renaming categories is discussed. Moving categories should only occur after a CFD discussion has been closed. The reason why this step is essential is, unlike articles, categories do not stand alone, they exist in a hierarchy, with parent categories and child categories. Changing a category name might seem like a good idea but if there is already a category system where the categories are named "X of Y", it doesn't make sense to change one category's name to "Y's X". In a CFD discussion, the context of the proposed renames, mergers and deletions is looked at as no categories exist in isolation (or if they do, they shouldn't be!).

What I'm unclear of is how "moving" is different from "renaming", both of which change the title of a category and retain the edit history. And with a rename, it is not necessary to go and change the category names on all of the category contents. Liz 12:29, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

When CfD renames a category, they move the description page (today by cut-and-paste), and then use bots to recategorize all members of the old category into the new one. The only difference is that the move (of the description page) will be normal. The bots will still have to do the recategorization to finish the rename. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:41, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Are the bots programmed to handle this configuration? –xeno 14:51, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Right - but if someone renames a category and neglects to kick off the bots, then hundreds or maybe thousands of articles could have redlinks and/or soft-redirects (which require an extra click) at the bottom of the page.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:54, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

@Xeno: It looks like the bots will need to be updated. I've posted a link to here on their operators' talk pages. @Obiwankenobi: The redlinks are a legitimate concern, but the soft-redirect issue could happen anyway, so I'm not as worried about it. Jackmcbarn (talk) 15:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Jack, can you give an example of what would happen if I were to move Category:Living people to Category:Dying people? What would we see on all of the 600,000 biographies in this category immediately after it was moved? Would there be a redlink, or a bluelink towards a soft-redirected category? Also, what happens if you attempt to rename it to a category name that already exists? I love the idea of saving history of a category instead of copy/paste renames, but I'm just not sure it's a tool random editors should have - making it a permission one could apply for would make more sense.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:14, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

@Obiwankenobi: On the articles, nothing would change at all. It would be a bluelink towards a soft-redirected category (which looks exactly the same from articles). The soft-redirected category would still retain all of its members, so readers would just see a confusing message in place of the description, and everything else would be normal (and a vandal could cause that even without this functionality). If you tried to move a category over an already-existing one, it would fail just like trying to move an article over an already-existing one would. Jackmcbarn (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Jack. I think that's problematic - as BHG points out, there are categories that are applied to hundreds or thousands of articles, whereas the category itself may only be watched by a few editors. This provides too much opportunity for large-scale troublesome moves - or even incorrect/undiscussed moves of categories. I believe that bots regularly clean up soft-redirected categories and move articles automatically, correct - that means someone could do an incorrect category move and then a bot would actually move the articles, which editors may ignore since they usually trust bot edits more.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

In light of the way the bots (and category move system in general) are currently setup, I think it would be best if a staged approach were used to roll out this new functionality. –xeno 15:46, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The rollout won't break anything. The bots can be updated at any time to use the new move method, and until they are, everything will keep working as it always has. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

There is one effect of leaving soft redirects that hasn't been mentioned yet - normal users won't be able to revert category moves. If we left a normal redirect then it could be reverted by any autoconfirmed user - providing no-one else edits the page in the meantime - but moves leaving behind a soft redirect will only be revertable by admins. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 16:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

(Of course, this won't matter if/when Jackmcbarn's patch goes through, as then only admins will be able move categories anyway.) — Mr. Stradivarius on tour 16:14, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'll also agree with BHG that this should be restricted to admins. Once the tool is in place and understood, then there may be a need to review the CFD guidelines to see what if anything needs to be changed. It would also be nice to create a permission list so the bots can do the moves. This should at some point be expanded to additional users. But that would require an approval process. Not even sure where to start on that. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

  It would probably be fine to include the permission with 'administrator', 'bot', 'bureaucrat'. at the outset. And then expand to other userrights as necessary. –xeno 17:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm still concerned about this, even if this tool is restricted to admins or permissions granted to a few experienced editors. Right now, we have two processes, a) speedy renames and b) CFD. If ANYONE objects to a speedy rename, the editor proposing the rename is directed to file a CFD proposal. Let's say, it's a category call "U.S. Interstate Highways in Virginia". If it goes to a CFD discussion, the creator of the category is notified, the relevant WikiProject is notified, there are notices sorted to other, interested WikiProjects so they can all participate in the discussion over whether the rename is a good idea. This might be a cumbersome process, but it allows ordinary editors who are experienced in editing in the category area to weigh in with their opinions. Some of these discussions get heated (like the one concerning Category:Pseudoscientists) and the result is "no consensus".
The idea that any admin could bypass this discussion process and move any category they choose, is very disruptive to the system that exists. As BHG states, there are a small number of editors who focus on categories and the chances that these moves would be seen by others is very small so there would be, in effect, no oversight. This isn't meant to be a judgment of administrators, just that the structure of categories on Misplaced Pages is quite different from other areas (like main space, talk pages, user pages, Wikipages, FAs, etc.). Editors have received blocks because of their lack of competency in creating or editing categories because bad edits to a category have a potentially greater impact than an edit to an article.
The only way I can see this tool being effectively used is after the outcome of a CFD, if the decision is to rename, a move can be done instead. Otherwise, editors can simply ask an admin or editor with the permission to make the move and skip over the discussion part. The admin may be uninvolved but it is very likely that the editor requesting the move is involved and there could be even more editors who would contest the move.
I really understand that this tool was created to make editors/admins lives easier, not more complicated, but I see an uptick in activity at Misplaced Pages:Move review unless this tool is thoughtfully and carefully rolled out. Liz 19:32, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Alternate userright proposal I propose renaming "templateeditor" into "trusted maintainer" and merge this userright into that bundle. Could also merge reviewer and account creator into it as well, just throwing the options out there. A trusted maintainer would be a perfect userright for gnoming work.--v/r - TP 20:28, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I think if it was this simple for "trusted maintainer" to move a category, they will just do so without checking to see how their move impacts related categories. I think when an editor has a right, they might be cautious using it at first, but soon are likely to trust their instinct or judgment instead of actually checking to see if the move makes sense from the category hierarchical structure that exists for that subject. It's crucial not to consider a category in isolation from other categories, they are part of a system. But I've had my say and will let others weigh in. Liz 20:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of bundling, personally, especially with the userrights that don't have much process attached for requesting them. We lose any ability to differentiate between them, as far as requirements go; someone who just wants to be able to review pending changes to articles isn't going to necessarily have the skills to be a template editor, but because we've (hypothetically) bundled them, we can't just give one without the other, and so we have to deny them for no real reason.

As far as the actual catmover right itself goes, I don't really see any reason to restrict it; while it's certainly true that maliciously moving a cat description page can affect many articles, it will only affect them by proxy (i.e. the cleanup is still limited to just that one cat description page; you don't need to go through and fix it for each of those thousands of articles), and it only affects them in an extremely minor way; most likely, no readers would even notice. On the whole, I don't think the potential for damage is particularly higher than pagemover, which might only affect one article, but will do it in a much more visible way (and there are articles that are just as unwatched as categories, of course). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:54, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I think there's also the question of norms. Pages can be moved by anyone in most cases, but it would be rather daft to move Ireland to Ireland (island) unless you have a death wish - a norm, and indeed a set of community agreed sanctions, has made individual editors moving such pages verboten. We could do the same with category moves - unless the category was created by yourself, or the move is to correct a typographical error, no matter what your role you should not move it, but rather seek consensus for the move at CFD or speedy CFD. A log of category moves could be reviewed to ensure that people weren't abusing this. Thus, in spite of what userrights we attach, we may also create a community norm that says, in general, categories should only rarely be moved without discussion - which would be a more restrictive rule than that which covers articles currently.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:11, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think that moving category pages will be useful for multiple reasons – keeping the category history visible, and being able to trace the new name more easily given the old one – but IMHO it should be restricted to admins. I can't think of any gain from making it available to others. (Writing as an editor who became an admin mainly to help with closing CFDs.) – Fayenatic London 21:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

  So yet another user "right" that administrators want to keep to themselves? Soon it will only be admins who are allowed to edit anything. Eric Corbett 21:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

  @Eric Corbett: No, Eric, it's a new tools which is not initially being rolled out to non-admins. No editor is losing any ability to do anything they can do now. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:45, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Not yet, no. But my fundamental objection is to the accretion of user rights to admins without any assessment of whether they have any idea of how to edit templates, for instance. I'm not interested in getting into a discussion about this self-evident truth here however, in the camp of the enemy. Eric Corbett 02:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

  No, users currently do not have this right. There is already a process to move categories and that is in place for several reasons. So the comments here simply are saying we need to install this feature in a way that supports the existing guidelines. If and when that process is changed, then the rights could be extended. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:44, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

  Kind of misses the point. While WMF is trying "make it as easy as possible to contribute knowledge" -- as evidenced by the fact by default the right goes to users -- the admin community is trying to decide a priori, without any evidence, that it should be restricted. Meanwhile, in the thread above I pointed out about 36 hours ago that our existing categorization of Pseudoscientists / Paranormal investigators -> James Randi is a WP:BLP, but admins here seem more interesting in haggling about this, and the Cfd and the blah blah blah whatever, than actually fixing the encyclopedia. (I've attempted to do so at Category:Paranormal investigators‎). NE Ent 01:50, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

  @NE Ent: Same question for you as for Green Giant below. Why do you want to give editors a tool to perform a task which they are not supposed to perform anyway?
  How would this help anyone? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:02, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• Incidentally, this is why non-admins need to be on WP:AN -- there's zero justification for admins deciding something like without getting input from the rest of the community. NE Ent 01:50, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
• Support a wider group for this right. The best venue for this would have been the Village Pump, but seeing as the discussion is already underway there is no point moving it now. I can see two camps forming, one side would like to restrict this to a small number of trusted users, the other to keep it open to a wider group. Personally I think it is a significant new right and it will see many simmering disputes spill over, particularly real world issues like the Middle East, the former Yugoslavia, the current Russia-Ukraine problems etc. If we open this new right to a wide group of editors, it will cause chaos because people will engage in POVish edit wars just like they do with article names and content. However, it isn't beneficial to Misplaced Pages if the right is resticted to just admins, because then it will be no different to the existing mechanism at WP:CFD/WP:CFDS i.e. you propose a rename and if approved it gets done by an admin/bot. The above idea of merging it into template editors and renaming that group has some merit but it begs the question of "why limit it to just that group?". I think the most beneficial route will be to add it to the widest possible group of trusted users i.e. admins, autopatrolled, file mover, reviewer, rollback and template editor groups. That would help build more confidence in each others abilities compared to the snarl-match taking place here. Cheers. Green Giant (talk) 16:17, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

While it could be a useful tool for users other than admins to have, I am opposed to adding the right to groups like Autopatrolled, file mover etc. as Green Giant suggested. Rollbackers (such as myself) often will have no clue about category maintenance, and it should neither be assigned to thousands of users who could misuse it (in good or bad faith) nor should category knowledge be a requirement to attain rollback. I would support a user group such as category mover, to be assigned like file mover to users experienced in category maintenance who can demonstrate their need for the tool by having demonstrated understanding and activity at WP:CFD. BethNaught (talk) 16:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

BethNaught, I would support a new user group just for this right but my point was that all of these groups are effectively trusted users until they give a reason not to be trusted. It makes no sense to reserve it just for admins when really categories are a content-building activity. The obvious solution to vandalism would be protection in the same way articles can be protected. Green Giant (talk) 20:56, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from, and on further consideration I don't believe there would be any danger in assigning the right to already trusted user groups. I guess I'm just the sort of person who likes to keep unrelated things separate. Given that categories are content building, I would therefore be happy for the right to be assigned to autopatrolled users (and perhaps template editors), but the other groups you mentioned are more about maintenance, which makes them a bit distant for me. BethNaught (talk) 21:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Green Giant: Moving categories is not a WP:BOLD issue, and has never been in the 8 years I have edited Misplaced Pages. They should be moved only after a discussion at WP:CFD, or (for a few speedy criteria) after listing at WP:CFD/S. That's not because of any technical restrictions; it's because changes to categories affect many articles, so prior consensus is required before renaming or depopulating any existing category.

Giving this tool to admins will not allow them to go moving categories around without prior consensus. It will merely allow them to implement CFD decisions; but the vast majority of CFD decisions are implemented by bots, so in practice this is a tool which will be used 95% of the time by bots.

Please can you explain why exactly you want a wider group of editors to be given a tool to do something which they aren't supposed to do anyway, because of its ramifications? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl:, the essence of this debate is whether the right should be just for admins (which is unlikely to gain consensus) or should anyone else be allowed it. The sheer fact that the issue is being discussed here rather than at the village pump is perhaps a sign of the times. I disagree with just giving it to admins and template editors, because it has precious little to do with just templates and affects everything we do. You mentioned WP:BOLD as not involving moving categories but in fact it encourages caution for all non-article namespaces, not just categories. ] in particular says "if what you're doing might be considered controversial (especially if it concerns categories for living people), propose changes at Categories for discussion". That doesn't mean that every category change needs to go to CFD, just the controversial ones. Like you yourself say further down, what if someone creates a category with a spelling error? It has happened to me sometimes. Wouldn't it be easier to just be able to move the category in a matter of seconds, rather than listing it at Categories for discussion/Speedy, where requests sometimes take days depending on the admins workload. Certainly I agree that this right shouldn't be handed out like candy to just any auto-confirmed editor, but equally let's not restrict this solely to admins. Beth's idea of a separate user group is the best way to go. The two most trusted groups after admins would be filemovers (373) and template editors (75 excluding two bots) (although at least 23 are also file movers), so why not have a third similar group? Let it be granted by an admin at requests for permissions if an applicant meets reasonably stringent criteria. Green Giant (talk) 23:56, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Green Giant: I am not implacably opposed to the idea of a special group like the one you mentioned, tho I do question whether its utility for the very small number of legitimate uses outweighs the risk that it becomes a way of bypassing the consensus-forming process at CFD. I think it would be great to have a wider discussion about this.
But the immediate issue facing us is that the categ-move facility will be rolled out on 22 May, only 8 days. As set up, it will be available to all auto-confirmed users; as patched by Jack, it would be available to admins only. So we have a choice about what happens next: roll it out to a more limited set than you would like, and discuss extending it, or roll it out to a much wider set. The option of holding off pending consensus is not on the table.
Woukdn't it be much better to start with the more limited change, and then consider the wider change? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that initially it should be just admins because of the absurdly short notice (or lack of) by the developers. However, call me a pessimist but where would we raise the issue of extending the right to non-admins? Certainly not here and the village pump proposals board is just a talking shop where any decent idea winds up in the archives somewhere. Once the dust settles, it is highly unlikely any proposals to extend the right will be successful. As an aside, I note that apart from Jack, very little effort seems to have gone into raising the issue over at Meta, because this affects every project, not just en-wiki. Having had a quick look through several other village pumps/cafes, I don't think I've seen any discussions outside of en-wiki and commons. Additionally, is there any chance of someone archiving some of the older posts because this board is absurdly large right now (getting close to 500k). Green Giant (talk) 00:53, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

It seems like my words of caution aren't having an impact on the discussion. So, my final comment is a straight-forward request:If you make this tool available, whether just to admins or to a wider group, please maintain a log of category moves so that there can be some record. Right now, we have CFD that acts as an archive one can refer to but if any admin can move a category, without providing any reason at all, there should at least be a log of these moves so that the community is aware of these changes. As BHG has stated, few editors have category pages on their Watchlist, there are tens of thousands of categories that exist and it is likely that category moves will go unnoticed if there isn't a log recording them. It should also record the name of the editor making the move so that any questions can be directed to them. Liz 17:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

They will be logged. See . Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Category moves: this is looking bad

A reply above by @Jackmcbarn: says "it's been decided that with the new discussion here, we don't have a clear enough consensus to make the change". The bug link is bugzilla:65221.

So it seems that what is now happening is that the new feature will be rolled out on 22 May, with no restrictions on its use. For all the reasons set out above, that is very bad news, because this new tool could be used to create serious damage to the category system, which could be enormously time-consuming to repair. A moved article affects one article; but a moved category can affect hundreds of articles. If an editor moves Category:French people to Category:Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, a soft redirect will be left behind, and the bots will then recategorise all the articles. This is wide open to exploitation, and it the vulnerability it causes should be fully assessed before such wide deployment.

I think it's a mistake to read the discussion above as no consensus for restricting this to admins only ... but there is also no consensus to roll this out without a restriction in place.

There are only 9 days until the planned rollout, which is too soon for an RFC to conclude. So it seems that the technical people are just going to impose this new tool as a fait accompli, without giving the community time to assess whether it wants it, and whether access to it should be restricted. Is that correct?

I it is correct, then the techies are about to impose a huge vulnerability, despite the warnings :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:05, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

What's to stop a vandal today from creating Category:Cheese-eating surrender monkeys with some random text, and replacing the contents of Category:French people with {{Category redirect|Category:Cheese-eating surrender monkeys}}? That would also cause the bots to miscategorize everything. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, note that Parent5446 questioned including the option to restrict this functionality at all ("Just wondering: why would you need a separate permission to move category pages? I mean it's not an expensive or destructive operation or anything like that.") Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:11, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree fully with BHG, this potentially powerful tool should be restricted to admins only. GiantSnowman 18:13, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, I agree with Jack: the potential destructive power of this tool doesn't actually lie in any function of the tool itself; it lies in the naivety of the bots that handle category redirects. restricting the use of the tool would be treating the symptom, not the cause, and as a general principle, we shouldn't be restricting permissions any more than is necessary. Perhaps we should think about a better way for the bots to work, instead. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:16, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Whatever the solution(s), they should be discussed before the tool is deployed. What we face now is its imposition before the community has fully assessed its impact, despite a significant number of experienced editors expressing concerns. That's appalling. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:20, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this definitely required more, detailed discussion before being thrust upon us. GiantSnowman 18:22, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Think of this, please: The editors who put their hours into WP:CFD are saying that this is a bad idea to implement without restrictions and this whole process is being rushed. This tool has not been created because those involved in category renaming asked for it. Editors who know the ramifications of sloppy or whimsical category moves, made without consensus, are saying, "This will not work out well." Why is their experience being discounted? Can you imagine telling the folks who work on the main page that any admin could make an article a featured article? Or, say, let's just eliminate WP:AFD discussions and let's just let admins delete whatever articles they feel don't "fit" within Misplaced Pages? Of course, there would be objections from the editors who know these areas well and work on maintaining some standards and fairness about the process. This tool would bypass all discussion by regular editors on whether these moves are a wise idea. The impact of this on WikiProjects alone could involve a massive clean-up.

I don't mean to sound alarmist, it's just that this tool throws out a long-standing consensus process at Misplaced Pages in one swift move. Liz 22:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Jackmcbarn: notes the bugzilla post ("Just wondering: why would you need a separate permission to move category pages? I mean it's not an expensive or destructive operation or anything like that.") That has been answered repeatedly in this thread, but it seems that some editors prefer to keep this as a technical discussion on bugzilla, rather than joining in the community discussion here.

This discussion-forking is no way to reach consensus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:26, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

That wasn't discussion-forking. That was an old post (posted February 3rd), while I was writing the code for the functionality. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that, Jack. But we still need this functionality to held back until there is a consensus on how to deploy it. Please can you or someone else with access to bugzilla make that request? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:36, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

The sysadmins definitely won't go for that. The best thing that there's chance of consensus of in time is to make it admin-only, but even that doesn't look likely. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Jack, I'm not sure what you mean there. Do you mean no chance that the sysadmins will agree to holding it back? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Jackmcbarn (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

How can this be true? How can the introduction of a new tool be forced on the Misplaced Pages community without considering the impact it will have or listening to the community's concerns? This is really crazy, Jackmcbarn! Liz 22:57, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If there were consensus here to make it admin-only, they'd be fine with that. Since we're divided, they're not going to change anything yet. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:19, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

• No need to rush Jack, I think you make a fair point - it is possible that someone could replicate the move functionality through a copy/paste + creation of a redirect, and then the bots will stupidly comply and categorize everyone as a cheese-eating surrender monkey. However, there is a certain element of security-through-obscurity here - most rookie spammers may not know about the full mechanics of a successful category move, whereas now it will become accessible in one click. As a developer, I'm sure you know the difference between one click and three in an interface can be massive. Nothing prevents people from doing copy/paste moves in article space, but we still restrict page moves for some users and even have the ability to lock page moves, with good reason - as such moves can be disruptive. More importantly, you have to understand the context of categories - which those of us who work in this space are well familiar with - if category moves were permitted by anyone, or even by people who had demonstrated X or Y, I'm still not convinced they should be using such powers - indeed if someone did this today, and tried to rename a category from Category:Bill Clinton to Category:William Jefferson Clinton using the redirect trick, it would be rejected and reverted and that person would be told to go to CFD. We have only one case right now where a regular editor can determine the name of a category, and that is at creation time - once that category is created, any changes need to be discussed. It's a bit burdensome, but it also avoids a lot of trouble - we already have a great difficulty in managing the flood of new categories - if we also had to be worried that users were changing existing category names willy nilly in the same way they move articles around - especially given that so few people watch categories - that could cause potential chaos and massive inconsistency that may only be discovered years after the fact. At CFD we regularly come across categories that are so brain dead it is painful, and sometimes these have been laying around for years before anyone noticed them. I think if this is rolled out, even just to admins, the admins should NOT use this tool unless there is an obvious typo, or unless there is consensus at a discussion somewhere. As a different example, Brownhairedgirl as admin has the right to delete categories right now, she could go and ice Category:Living people if she felt up to it, but she *won't*, she won't even delete obviously bad categories (unless they are blatant spam or violating of BLP), instead she will bring them to discussion and let the community decide. It's just the way CFD works, and by putting this tool in the hands of everyone, you are bypassing the whole CFD process. There's a certain stability that comes with categories and a need for consistency; knowing that a given tree won't be gutted or destroyed or renamed without some oversight and more than one pair of eyes is key. Categorization is tricky and category names are quite different beasts than article names, so we shouldn't treat them the same. I'm saying this as a user, not an admin, and while I think it's reasonable to consider adding permissions for certain non-admins to do such moves, there need to be strong norms around when any such moves can be performed, and I can think of very few cases where even an admin should move a category without discussion (unlike article titles, which can be moved much more freely). If it needs to roll out right away, fine, but restrict it to admins, and let the community discuss greater permissions and attendant norms in the meantime.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with all that Obi has written. The only situation in which I as an admin move a category without discussion is when it is one that I have newly created, per WP:C2E. As an admin, I would use this new tool in only three situations: 1) to implement a speedy move of a categ I had newly created; 2) to implement a speedy move after unopposed listing at WP:CFD/S, 3) to implement the result of a full WP:CFD discussion. In practice, I would very rarely do either of the 2 or 3, because in nearly all cases it is much easier an to let the bot do the work; the bot also makes fewer mistakes and logs its actions consistently.
    So if it is used properly, this new tool will overwhelmingly be used by the bots. That raises the option of making it a bot-only right. I would be quite happy with that, it might allay some concerns about accretion of admin powers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:23, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that having a discussion proposing limiting something to admins should be on WP:VPP not in the admin secret hidey-hole club treehouse basement. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC).

these actions are already limited to admins by longstanding consensus. Editors, nor admins, are not allowed to rename a category except in a very small set of circumstances, and if someone did rename through copy/paste they would be reverted. This tool simply makes it easier. I want to address a point Liz made above, which is that no-one asked for this feature - on that I disagree, the ability to move categories and thus keep their history has long been requested and I'm very glad we'll have it as we'll be able to see the whole history of a category including renames which previously we couldn't, so thanks to the devs for making this happen - however we have existing norms that any such moves happen at CFD or CFD/S, and giving users permissions to do this while skipping those venues throws out longstanding consensus. Since there seems to be a push to roll this out we must remember en wiki is not the only one affected, and there may be other patches that need to roll at the same time so I see no reason to block the rollout, just a suggestion that permissions be limited - for now- and then we can in parallel have a deeper discussion about who else should have these permissions and when, if ever, users should be allowed to use them.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 23:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Obiwankenobi: What you're suggesting is basically what they said no to. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:27, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Who exactly is "they"?

Why is the default assumption that a powerful new tool should be handed to everyone, without a consensus to do so? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:47, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

"They" are probably the sysadmins, and the default assumption was that category moving is no more powerful than page moving, so it should be distributed to the same users that pagemove is. And to be fair, they're not wrong from their perspective; it's only the bots that make it powerful here, not the tool itself. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 01:50, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Correct on both accounts, Writ Keeper. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:53, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@Writ Keeper: @Jackmcbarn: I disagree strongly with that default assumption, because a category page has a very different function to other pages. The consequences of moving a category page are very different.

But I am even more concerned about the apparent determination to ignore the huge weight of evidence in this discussion that those who do the greatest amount of work with categories foresee huge problems arising from wide deployment of this tool. When a theoretical perspective about a tool discounts the practical effects of its deployment, we are in trouble. Did none of the developers even stop to ask why category pages had been unmoveable until now?

The bots do valuable job of fixing the minor errors in categorisation which would otherwise leave category entries pointing to redirects. This new tool turns them into a vulnerability, which will give huge power to vandals and to editors who are reckless. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:47, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@BrownHairedGirl: "a category page has a very different function to other pages. The consequences of moving a category page are very different." The only reason that's the case is because of our bots. From the developers' perspective, our bots aren't a reason to change the software. Did none of the developers even stop to ask why category pages had been unmoveable until now? The reason category pages were immovable for a long time is because they wanted to avoid confusing users by letting them think they were moving the category when they were in fact only moving its description page. This new tool turns them into a vulnerability, which will give huge power to vandals and to editors who are reckless. As I pointed out before, vandals can abuse the bots by cut-and-paste moving a category, and the bots will do just as much damage that way. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@Jackmcbarn: It's not just because of the bots. The bots add an extra layer of vulnerability, but don't let them obscure the underlying difference, which is why we have the bots.
If I move an article or a template or a Misplaced Pages page, a link to the old title takes me via a redirect to the page as it was; the only change is to the title, but in every other respect the page looks the same. That is not the case with a category, where we don't use hard redirects. If I have the tools and the inclination to move a category page, then when I visit the old title I do not see what I would have seen before the move. I see the same list of pages, but not the parent categories, the explanatory text, the table of contents etc. If I follow the soft redirect, I see the Toc, parent categs etc ... but not the list of pages. The bots exist to bridge that gap.
Once again, the consequences of this are well understood by the editors who regularly participate at CFD, and all of those CFD regulars who have posted here (including non-admins) agree that this tool should be restricted. It is frustrating to find that all expertise is being ignored :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:26, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a great new possibility. I am not an admin, and one time I was very active on Cfd and many times wanted to be able to move categories.

Nevertheless, I am strongly convinced it is a really bad idea to implement this feature and not restrict it to a small group of users. I foresee a big mess and serious disruption from all kinds of impetuous and/or tendentious editors, as well as vandals. I think that either this should not be implemented at this time, or restricted to admins until such time as a broader discussion establishes which other users may be allowed access to this feature.

I strongly agree with BrownHairedGirl and disagree with Jackmcbarn: developers have no right to implement a feature while there is no consensus who should have access to it, unless it is restricted to the largest cross-section everybody agrees upon, which in this case is admins. Debresser (talk) 08:53, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@Debresser: Actually, they do. Developers aren't bound by community consensus. If we establish a consensus to restrict the tool, they'll restrict it, but they don't have to do anything now. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the scene in Raiders of the Lost ark - "our top men are on it?" "Who?" "Top... Men." The arrival of a new permission implicitly indicates to the user that this is an acceptable action to take - but we have no policy around user-led category moves. It's almost as if 'delete' were added to all editors toolboxes without the attendant training and infrastructure for its use. As has already been noted, on en.wp, no regular user has ever had the right to move a category, and now it will show up their menu as a new toy to play with. This is a bad idea, and I disagree that the sysadmin's position is reasonable since rollout of an IT system change must take account of the local technological (eg bots) and social (eg norms) context. That wasn't done here. I'm sure they are acting in good faith but I would also be surprised if this was the only wiki where regular users weren't permitted to muck about renaming categories, etc. we don't need to establish a new consensus here that only admins can move categories, this is LONG standing precedent and we have policy documentation and years of evidence to prove it, so if this must roll plz restrict to admins as that aligns with the current consensus of who can actually move categories today. The fact that a few editors here are grumbling does nothing to upend that long standing consensus.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 10:09, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot of actions that are technically permitted but aren't allowed by our rules, like sticking editors on Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions unilaterally. Any misuse of this tool is a social problem, not a technological one. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@Jackmcbarn: Misplaced Pages has technical barriers to many other social problems, such as a bar on IPs creating pages, and on non-admins deleting pages, and on editors using rollback without first seeking permission.

There is an existing technical barrier to category moves. You are entitled to the view that the barrier shouldn't exist, but a change requires a community consensus rather than a unilateral imposition by the devs. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

No consensus

Last I recall, Devs don't implement something unless there is consensus to do so. Doubt that? Go have a look at how long it took for Rollback to be implemented for anyone besides admins. (Including several discussions.)

So the standard SOP afaik, is that they add a new tool to admins (user-right group: sysop), and IF THERE IS CONSENSUS, then that tool may be allowed to a broader user-group (whether to an existing group like autoconfirmed, or a new one like how rollbacker or template editor were created after a consensual discussion).

So if we follow the past model, then this ability should be given to admins if the Devs so deem, and a consensual discussion would be required before granting it to a larger userbase than that.

If someone else has a different view of wikipedia history or policy, I'm all ears, but as far as I know, that's how things have been done for some time.

And note, this is a functionality that I have been wanting to see for some time. I have never liked that we do cut-n-paste moves when implementing a category move. (I seem to recall that once-upon-a-time we could move category pages IF we removed all the category members first. But that was deprecated in some update in the long past.)

And yes, category moves can be done boldly, but due to the large number of page changes to the category members which is sometimes needed, WP:CFD is the typical venue for discussing a category move.

What I think is not being understood by those who are not regularly involved with categories is that the name of the category is much more important than the name of an article (for example). If you read over WP:CAT, you may note that the name is often the only way to determine inclusion criteria for article membership in a category. And as well, as the main purpose for categories is navigation, category names need to be clear.

And categories do not allow for referencing, so they rely on the references of the member articles. So category names NEED to be neutral, unbiased.

And now couple this with the fact that categories tend to be the most unwatched pages, and you have a recipe for disaster here waiting to happen.

And so if you look at the discussion above, you may notice that those who are active in CFD are the ones who are most concerned about this. As they are obviously the ones who not only presumably know and understand category policy, but also are the ones who regularly deal with implementation, and further, who regularly have to deal with cleaning up the messes of well-meaning (and sometimes not-so-well-meaning) category editors.

I'm still waiting for a way to block hotcat and twinkle from malfeasant editors for these and other reasons. There are several editors whose prolific category creation continually create a lot of work and headaches for those at CFD. And if this is implemented, this will be a huge mess.

This simply should be a separate user-right, just like template editor. And the community needs to come to consensus on who should have this right and how it should be granted.

This is the way we've been doing these things, there is no reason to not do this in this case as well. - jc37 20:21, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure, I'll give you a different view of Misplaced Pages history and policy:

Anyone can edit. The default state is that anyone can do anything, unless we specifically find that it's necessary to restrict that. For those who weren't around and haven't heard the stories, it was originally the case that anyone could delete pages. It used to be that non-autoconfirmed users could move pages. We've restricted a few processes in response to real problems, but we have generally avoided doing so merely for speculative problems.

We don't preëmptively protect anything—much less entire namespaces!—based on some editor's speculation that there might be vandalism (vandalism, that to judge from the above comments, will simultaneously affect huge numbers of articles and also be completely invisible because nobody's watching the cat pages). The system of protecting after a concrete problem has been demonstrated seems to be working pretty well for today's featured article, so I don't really see why Category:France really needs to be handled any differently, and I certainly don't see why we should protect thousands and thousands of them just because there might be a problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:45, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: This is not about creating a new protection; it is about the devs imposing the removal of a protection which already exists.
The risk of not just of vandalism, but of good faith actions where editors don't understand the consequences, in a namespace where pages are rarely watched. With so few watchers, who is going to monitor the hundreds of thousands of category pages for any problems which might occur?
Unilateral bold moving of categories is something which editors should not be doing anyway. We have a well-established consensus-forming process at WP:CFD, and a speedy one for uncontroversial actions at WP:CFD/S. Why create a tool to bypass these processes? And why on earth is being implemented with out a consensus to do so? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:31, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

This discussion is about creating new protection. Previously, deficient technical design prevented people from doing what they should have been able to do from the beginning. The technical problem is being fixed. Now we should be going back to the normal default for this community: anyone can edit.

As for "without a consensus", there are 800+ WMF wikis, and many, many thousands of MediaWiki installations all over the world. Fixing this bug affects thousands of communities. The views of some people at just one of them should not prevent everyone else in the world from having the bug fixed. (Personally, I'm quite looking forward to this for use at a private wiki; it will enable me to clean up a minor mess left by someone else without having to agree to an admin bit there.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:37, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

This discussion is not about the other 800+ Wikis; it is about en.wikipedia, which isn any case is by far the largest wikimedia project.

Whether you regard the existing setup as a bug or a feature, it is one which has defined how categories are maintained. There are a significant number of editors who do have posted here to say that the "fix" poses significant problems for em.wp procedures, which is that in the case of category moving, the normal default is not for editors to act unilaterally. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:24, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I thought I'd chime in here as a non-administrator. Currently the consensus-established policy is that regular editors should not move categories (via copy-paste or any other method). I don't see the point in giving every editor access to a tool that policy forbids them to use. The burden of establishing consensus is on those changing the status quo, and without consensus the status quo should be maintained. Therefore, the rights to use this tool should either be limited to administrators and bots (who are implicitly trusted enough not to use them to circumvent policy) or not given to any user groups until consensus is established to do so. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

No, the current "policy" is that copy-paste "moves", no matter what the page, violate the CC-BY-SA license, and that, as a result of cat pages being developed separately, and therefore having strange limitations, no other method of moving is possible for non-admins. There is no "consensus-established policy" (I notice that you have provided no link to this alleged policy) that says that it's a bad idea for non-admins to be able to move category pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

User:WhatamIdoing, your first sentence is very wrong. WP:How to fix cut-and-paste moves (how-to guide) briefly describes why splitting the page history should be avoided and links to WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages (guideline). WP:CWW is satisfied as long as attribution is given. Consider these recent creations by User:Cydebot to implement moves. Each edit summary contains a list of authors' usernames, as described by WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Proper attribution and WP:Merge and delete#Record authorship and delete history (essay). Any auto-confirmed user could have created the pages, and any user could have written the required edit summaries. Deletion is more likely to cause problems, per WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Reusing deleted material. Category:Female astronauts was deleted, but the deletion seems unnecessary, as it was recreated containing {{Category redirect}}. Category:Women astronauts's creation has a problem in its edit summary: the trailing ellipsis indicates truncation. There are three possible users, and none is simply "Lysos". At least one user is not attributed properly. Any user with a copy of the history – contents not required – could repair it by using the tips at WP:Copying within Misplaced Pages#Repairing insufficient attribution. Flatscan (talk) 04:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

• Another non-admin (and former CFD regular) in favour of great caution here. I'd be very happy for the right to be admin-only, & might be pursuaded for a very small group of others to be given it. But as I understand it, this will make things easier, and there is no vast backlog for CFD-agreed moves anyway, so I'd wait to see if there is a problem before trying to solve it. Agree with User:BrownHairedGirl all the way. User:WhatamIdoing is completely missing several points: nobody watches the category pages mainly because they are very rarely edited. But many people use the categories all the time. Anybody who has spent any time at CFD will have seen many manic/enthusiastic nuisance category creators and won't doubt for a second that if they could move categories they certainly would. The whole point about categories is that they are connected up to other categories in structures that have often been the subject of protracted and fierce discussion, which can often only be traced through "what links here" - there isn't even a record of CFD debates on the talk page. Johnbod (talk) 01:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

  I favor great caution, too. I also favor not assuming that our editors can't handle this, especially once a few "hot button" categories get move-protected.
  I've got a bunch of cat pages on my watchlist, but you're missing the practical point: if the cat gets moved and every single article in that cat gets an edit to place it in the new category name, then one move could turn up on watchlists for dozens or even hundreds of pages. That means that cat moves are likely to be far more noticeable than regular page moves, even if absolutely zero people are watching the cat page itself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:37, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I am in general agreement with those who have written above in favour of caution: User:BrownHairedGirl, Johnbod, and others. Yes, I'm an admin, and yes, I close a lot of discussions at WP:CFD. Users could try to argue that I'm just trying to protect the "sphere" where I do a lot of admin work, but really that's not my concern at all. (Frankly, I would love for the load at CFD to be lightened, but I'm afraid this would NOT accomplish it. Quite the opposite, I'm guessing!) My concerns have been well set out by the others above. I do think it is telling that those who tend to be more involved in category editing and organizations are the ones pushing for caution, whether or not those editors are admins. Good Ol’factory 05:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Just a note that there is a vote going on about this same issue at the Commons ...some of the same concerns being voiced. I didn't realize that this feature change would affect all of Wikimedia. Liz 14:20, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

  Yes, as I and other people said last week, this change affects 800+ wikis run by the Wikimedia Foundation plus many thousands of non-WMF wikis, both public and private. This bug fix is really not about the English Misplaced Pages. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:13, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Only admins to move categories? Really?

With the massive backlogs that exist at other admin-esque pages, isn't this over-kill? If users can move pages, then why not categories too? I doubt many people will even be aware they can move categories straight away. Leave it as it's planned to be, and if it all goes tits-up, round my house with your pitchforks and effigies. Lugnuts 06:36, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I suppose we can write an admin-bot to move-protect all categories (or, perhaps, all categories over 1-3 days old). Or, alternatively, disable all the category-rename-handling bots until they are also programmed to revert improper moves, rather than follow them. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:04, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

@Lugnuts, giving all editors, including overenthusiastic newbies with idiosyncratic ideas about categorization (example), this facility is likely to increase the workload on those who repair disruption to categorization and hence make backlogs worse. I'd support move-protecting all (reader-side) categories more than a few days old. DexDor (talk) 05:35, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Lugnuts is correct though that this doesn't necessarily have to be restricted to just admins. There should probably be a CategoryMover user right added as well. Though I assume that this has already been suggested somewhere in this long discussion. Resolute 16:18, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how attractive a vandalism target category moves would be, but it should be simple enough to disable them for non-admins by adding a <moveonly> entry for the Category: prefix to the title blacklist. That's a bit of a hack, of course, and would only work if Category: pages can only be moved to other titles in the Category: namespace (can they?), but it might be worth considering as a stop-gap while a broader consensus is figured out for who should ultimately be able to perform these moves. 28bytes (talk) 04:50, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Just noting that that would also allow template editors and account creators to move pages as well as they both have the tboverride userright. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:44, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah, good point. 28bytes (talk) 05:52, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily a bad thing or reason not to add it to the blacklist, just a note that there will be an unintended consequence. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:56, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. 28bytes (talk) 12:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Going live

This is going live in a little over 24 hours. It's now clear that consensus has not been established here to restrict this functionality. Also, note that this has already gone live on Commons, and there haven't been any disasters there. Jackmcbarn (talk) 16:20, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

No, what is patently clear is that Misplaced Pages is far more popular than Commons, and that there will be a disaster here. This entire thing has been cocked-up from the very beginning. GiantSnowman 16:26, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

No. What is clear is that there is no consensus for the devs to change how individual wikis run things! This is simply another example where the foundation and the devs let us know how little they respect the editors on the wikis. Consensus is fine as long as it agrees with the foundation. Anything else can simply be ignored! This is simply not an acceptable attitude. Exactly who on this wiki gave you the omnipotent power to tell us to change our established consensus? Maybe you need to run a class on how to respect consensus? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:44, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Too narrow of a community base here

I propose an official RfC be started on this topic in the village pump as I'm sure there are many non-admin users (who refuse to come to the administrators' noticeboard as they may feel this is a toxic sewer in which nothing overly productive is accomplished). This discussion needs to be opened to the entire community. Until such a time as it is offered to the rest of the community (not that they couldn't come here, they shouldn't have to), I strongly oppose this proposal. — {{U|Technical 13}} 14:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

You don't propose that an RfC be started. If you want to start an RfC, just start it. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:46, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Technical 13 has made a point, although a little belatedly. This thread didn't start out as a proposal, it just gradually developed into one. Also, being an admin doesn't necessarily correspond with competence in working with categories; whenever I make an effort to categorize pages, I either don't find anything on the list that I want, or, if I do, someone comes along shortly and changes it, so I won't be moving any categories. However, what we have here is a new action that up until now no one could do. It makes sense to start using it among a smaller group at first. If the rollout is coming shortly, I would hate to see it held up, or released without any restriction at all because of lack of consensus. Why not limit the moves to admins for now, and then after a month or two start an RfC, as T13 suggests, about how and to what extent permissions can be extended? By then people will have worked with the process, and there should be some opinions from the folks at WP:WikiProject Categories about whether and how much this access would help them in their work, and those involved may have come up with some ideas of how to implement it. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

@Anne Delong: Because the restriction is a software setting, and the people capable of changing it won't do so unless we get consensus beforehand. Jackmcbarn (talk) 15:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I assumed as much. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:02, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Which is totally backwards. We have guideline and process in place with community support. Now the developers want to change that without needing approval. That is wrong in so many ways. Vegaswikian (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

And this is EXACTLY why this was a horrible idea...

...because we get crap like this as a result. This breaks the moving bot, and it's the wrong kind of redirect! Category redirects do not work this way. This needs to be stopped, now, on an emergency basis before this spreads and completely breaks the category system. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:59, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, the wrong redirect type was because of a latent coding bug. Since Callanecc uses a language other than en here (I presume en-GB), it checked the redirect override text in the wrong language. I've prepared a fix for this at gerrit:135178. In the meantime, this can be fixed by creating MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override/en-GB with the same contents as MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override. Jackmcbarn (talk) 04:22, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

No, you fix it by stopping the ability to move categories now. GiantSnowman 07:28, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I've created MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override/en-gb and MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override/en-ca (note that "gb" and "ca" are lower case, not upper case). That will fix the problem for editors who have their language set to some form of English. Editors using more exotic languages probably won't cause too much of a problem before Jackmcbarn's patch is deployed. — Mr. Stradivarius 08:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

The real fix is now live here (early because of a SWAT deploy). @Mr. Stradivarius: Can you delete MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override/en-gb and MediaWiki:category-move-redirect-override/en-ca under G6 now? Jackmcbarn (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

 Done — Mr. Stradivarius 15:55, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Jack doesn't even have that power, but on the other hand you do. Have fun. Legoktm (talk) 03:57, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

All categories that have been moved so far

+----------------+----------------------+---------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| log_timestamp  | log_user_text        | log_namespace | log_title                                                                          | log_params                                                                                                                                                                            | log_comment                                                                                                                                       |
+----------------+----------------------+---------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 20140523035006 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Trịnh_Lords                                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Trịnh lords";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | To match capitalisation of main article ]                                                                                           |
| 20140523055212 | Markhurd             |            14 | L’Oréal-UNESCO_Awards_for_Women_in_Science_laureates                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:62:"Category:L'Oréal-UNESCO Awards for Women in Science laureates";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                 | Non-smart quote, same as articles                                                                                                                 |
| 20140523193330 | ThaddeusB            |            14 | Numerologist                                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Numerologists";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140523195731 | Lugnuts              |            14 | Slough_Council_elections                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:41:"Category:Slough Borough Council elections";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                     |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140524014351 | Callanecc            |            14 | User:Callanecc/test                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:33:"Category:User:Callanecc/testmoved";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                             |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140524020612 | Callanecc            |            14 | Pseudoscientists                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:35:"Category:Advocates of pseudoscience";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                           | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140524020614 | Ktr101               |            14 | Former_Essential_Air_Service                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:Former Essential Air Service airports";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                | It should be under this name, since it makes no sense under the old one.                                                                          |
| 20140524021620 | Callanecc            |            14 | Nguyễn_Lords                                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Nguyễn lords";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                         | ], ] at ]                                                           |
| 20140524021628 | Callanecc            |            14 | Mandarins_of_the_Nguyễn_Lords                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:40:"Category:Mandarins of the Nguyễn lords";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                        | ], ] at ]                                                           |
| 20140524082057 | Mr. Stradivarius     |            14 | Test_category                                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Test category 2";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                      | test the new category move function - will delete in a second                                                                                     |
| 20140524125353 | Oncenawhile          |            14 | Demographic_history_by_country                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:49:"Category:Demographic history by country or region";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                             | Expanding to include region articles, given this category currently covers both                                                                   |
| 20140524143445 | Woz2                 |            14 | Software_companies_based_in_Estonia                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:38:"Category:Software companies of Estonia";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                        | Consistancy                                                                                                                                       |
| 20140524223857 | BrownHairedGirl      |            14 | Demographic_history_by_country_or_region                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:39:"Category:Demographic history by country";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                       | revert bold move.  Please take it to ]                                                                                                   |
| 20140525020447 | Mitch Ames           |            14 | Heritage_Hotels_by_country                                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:35:"Category:Heritage hotels by country";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                           | Capitalisation                                                                                                                                    |
| 20140525083343 | Robbo128             |            14 | Nova_Entertainment                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:27:"Category:NOVA Entertainment";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                   |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140525163151 | Vin09                |            14 | Lists_of_cities_in_India                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:32:"Category:List of cities in India";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                              | spelling correction                                                                                                                               |
| 20140525184622 | Editor2020           |            14 | Early_Hebrew_Christians                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:32:"Category:Early Jewish Christians";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                              | Makes more sense. Corresponds with usage of other categories                                                                                      |
| 20140526000820 | Editor2020           |            14 | Judeo-Christian_polemics                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:34:"Category:Jewish-Christian polemics";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                            | not judeo-christian, i.e. ethics and beliefs common to both                                                                                       |
| 20140526012059 | BrownHairedGirl      |            14 | List_of_cities_in_India                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:33:"Category:Lists of cities in India";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                             | revert bold move.  Please take it to ]                                                                                                   |
| 20140526012333 | Warrenjs1            |            14 | Plastics_trade_unions                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:41:"Category:Plastics and rubber trade unions";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                     |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140526050543 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Historical_stubs                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:History stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge (no pun intended)                                                                                                                   |
| 20140526051035 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Academic-bio-stub                                                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:33:"Category:Academic biography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                             | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526051240 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Computer_Specialist_Stubs                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:34:"Category:Computer specialist stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                            | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526051426 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Cayman_stubs                                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:29:"Category:Cayman Islands stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                 | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526051751 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Geologic_feature_of_the_Solar_System_not_on_Earth_stubs                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:27:"Category:Astrogeology stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                   | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526052010 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Business_bio_stubs                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:33:"Category:Business biography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                             | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526150242 | GeorgeLouis          |            14 | Conservatism_articles_needing_infoboxes                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:48:"Category:Conservatism articles without infoboxes";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                              | Infoboxes are not required; therefore they are not "needed."                                                                                      |
| 20140526170343 | PatGallacher         |            14 | MEPs_for_the_Republic_of_Ireland_2014-2019                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:MEPs for the Republic of Ireland 2014–2019";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                           | normal pattern                                                                                                                                    |
| 20140526173534 | PatGallacher         |            14 | Elections_in_2019                                                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:2019 elections";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                       | normal                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140526183058 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Northern-Ireland-related_stubs                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:31:"Category:Northern Ireland stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                               | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526183450 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Haiti-stub_stubs                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:Haiti stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526183739 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Typography_stub                                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:25:"Category:Typography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                     | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526183836 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Typography_stubs                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140526184113 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Nigeria_related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Nigeria stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140526194030 | Rich Farmbrough      |            14 | Wikipedia_articles_incorporating_text_from_the_Whitehouse_website                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:75:"Category:Misplaced Pages articles incorporating text from the White House website";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                   |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140526231935 | Lgcsmasamiya         |            14 | Bavaria_Party_politicians                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:36:"Category:Members of the Bayernpartei";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                          | redirect to a proper name                                                                                                                         |
| 20140527055800 | Filastin             |            14 | Irish_republicans_imprisoned_on_charges_of_terrorism                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:91:"Category:Irish republicans imprisoned on charges of alleged terrorism by the United Kingdom";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                   | This is a highly dubious category. I believe in its removal, but would prefer its accuracy in title until a debate has been had.                  |
| 20140527060853 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Adelaide-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Adelaide stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527061122 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Adelaide_suburb_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:33:"Category:Adelaide geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                             | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527061332 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Canberra_suburb_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:Australian Capital Territory geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527061701 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Canberra-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:43:"Category:Australian Capital Territory stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                   | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527061828 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Historical_Fiction_book_stubs                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:38:"Category:Historical fiction book stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527061911 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Historical_fiction_book_stubs                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140527061948 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Historical_fiction_book_stubs                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140527062136 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | UK_geography_stubs                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:39:"Category:United Kingdom geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527062357 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | US_geography_stubs                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:38:"Category:United States geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527062651 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Liberal_related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:25:"Category:Liberalism stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                     | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527062902 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Football_(soccer)_player_stubs                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:42:"Category:Football (soccer) biography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                    | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527062931 | DoctorKubla          |            14 | List_of_Unidentified_Shipwrecks_in_Australian_Waters                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:52:"List of unidentified shipwrecks in Australian waters";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                          | This is a list article, not a category.                                                                                                           |
| 20140527062949 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Football_(soccer)_biography_stubs                                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140527123456 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Afghanistan-related_stubs                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:26:"Category:Afghanistan stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                    | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527123639 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Party_related_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:30:"Category:Political party stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527123852 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Female-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Feminism stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527124203 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Melbourne-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Melbourne stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527124350 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Melbourne_suburb_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:34:"Category:Melbourne geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                            | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527124500 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Sydney_suburb_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:31:"Category:Sydney geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                               | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527124619 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | United_States_television_programme_stubs                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:47:"Category:United States television program stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                               | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527124758 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | United_States_football_club_stubs                                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:40:"Category:United States soccer club stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527125652 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Serbia-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Serbia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527130016 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Buddhism-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Buddhism stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527130211 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | RAF_stubs                                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:30:"Category:Royal Air Force stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527130333 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | California_County_Routes_stubs                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:38:"Category:California county route stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                        | historey merge                                                                                                                                    |
| 20140527130424 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | California_county_route_stubs                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140527130610 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Catalonia-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Catalonia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | hsitory merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527130742 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Gibraltar-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Gibraltar stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527130909 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Fungi_stubs                                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Fungus stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527131315 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Scotland-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Scotland stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527131619 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Computer_file_system_stubs                                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:31:"Category:Computer storage stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                               | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527152808 | Jackmcbarn           |            14 | Id1f03240c203f32a12953f49a075cfd5c25f0f31                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:56:"Category:Id1f03240c203f32a12953f49a075cfd5c25f0f31 moved";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140527161156 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Macao_stubs                                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:Macau stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527161432 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Netherlands-related_stubs                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:26:"Category:Netherlands stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                    | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527162419 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Faroe_Islands-related_stubs                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:28:"Category:Faroe Islands stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                  | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527162746 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Slovenia-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Slovenia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527162918 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Georgia_politician_stubs                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:Georgia (U.S. state) politician stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527163331 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Environmental_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:26:"Category:Environment stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                    | history merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527163711 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Energy_development_stubs                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Energy stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527163913 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Greenland-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Greenland stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527164353 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Texas_stub                                                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:Texas stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527164708 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Ice_hockey_player_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:35:"Category:Ice hockey biography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                           | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527164901 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | U.S._newspaper_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:38:"Category:United States newspaper stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527165053 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Maritime_Provinces_geography_stubs                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:45:"Category:Prince Edward Island geography stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                 | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527165252 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Central_America-related_stubs                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:30:"Category:Central America stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527165432 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Canadian_newspaper_stubs                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:31:"Category:Canada newspaper stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                               | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527165612 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Theologist_stubs                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:25:"Category:Theologian stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                     | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527165857 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Africa-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Africa stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140527170048 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Albania-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Albania stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140528074841 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Argentina-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Argentina stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140528075043 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Australia-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Australia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140528075230 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Austria-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Austria stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140528100812 | Mabalu               |            14 | Israeli_jewery_designers                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:36:"Category:Israeli jewellery designers";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                          | Spelling mistake                                                                                                                                  |
| 20140528112445 | Samwilson            |            14 | Local_History_Collection,_Fremantle                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:124:"Category:Misplaced Pages articles incorporating text from the City of Fremantle Intrepretation Plaques and Panels Research Project";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";} | To be in keeping with other Misplaced Pages source categories.                                                                                          |
| 20140528151658 | Mosmof               |            14 | European_retractable-roof_stadiums                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:44:"Category:Retractable-roof stadiums in Europe";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                  | consistent structure                                                                                                                              |
| 20140528151834 | Mosmof               |            14 | Retractable-roof_stadiums_in_Europe                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:42:"Category:Eurpean retractable-roof stadiums";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                    | error                                                                                                                                             |
| 20140529131700 | BrownHairedGirl      |            14 | England_MP_stubs                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Parliament of England (pre-1707) MP stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | per ]                                                             |
| 20140529203058 | The Sage of Stamford |            14 | Members_of_paramilitary_organizations                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:60:"Category:Members of paramilitary and terrorist organizations";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                  | To merge 2 categories which are difficult to distinguish                                                                                          |
| 20140530032833 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Belgium-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Belgium stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530033124 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Brazil-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Brazil stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530033319 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | California-related_stubs                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:25:"Category:California stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                     | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530033447 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Cambodia-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Cambodia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530033850 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Canada-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Canada stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530034037 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Central_Asia-related_stubs                                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:27:"Category:Central Asia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                   | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530034156 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Chicago-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Chicago stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530034226 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Chicago-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140530034304 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Chicago_stubs                                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140530034421 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Chile-related_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:Chile stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530034819 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | China-related_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:China stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530035116 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Colombia-related_stubs                                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:23:"Category:Colombia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                       | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530035233 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Croatia-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Croatia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530035351 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Denmark-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Denmark stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530035531 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Estonia-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Estonia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530035704 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Fiji-related_stubs                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:19:"Category:Fiji stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                           | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530040236 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Finland-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Finland stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140530223119 | BrownHairedGirl      |            14 | Irish_republicans_imprisoned_on_charges_of_alleged_terrorism_by_the_United_Kingdom | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:61:"Category:Irish republicans imprisoned on charges of terrorism";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                 | revert bold move.  Please take it to ]                                                                                                   |
| 20140531011102 | Futbase              |            14 | IF_Elsborg_matches                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:28:"Category:IF Elfsborg matches";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                  | Correct name                                                                                                                                      |
| 20140531024229 | LT910001             |            14 | Physiology_articles_needing_images.                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:43:"Category:Physiology articles needing images";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                   | remove full stop from title                                                                                                                       |
| 20140531123626 | AlanM1               |            14 | Lists_of_Righteous_among_the_Nations                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:45:"Category:Lists of Righteous Among the Nations";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                 | Correct cap'n per sources and other articles                                                                                                      |
| 20140531184807 | Roycekimmons         |            14 | Educational_technology_authors_and_researchers                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:41:"Category:People in educational technology";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                     | Needed to include innovators (e.g., designers and CEOs).                                                                                          |
| 20140531190437 | Corvoe               |            14 | Films_directed_by_Phil_Lord_and_Chris_Miller                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:59:"Category:Films directed by Phil Lord and Christopher Miller";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                   | See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Phil_Lord_and_Christopher_Miller&diff=610965754&oldid=610890316                              |
| 20140531190754 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | France-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:France stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140531190936 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Germany-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Germany stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140531191116 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Greece-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Greece stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140531191215 | Nyttend              |            14 | Testing                                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:29:"User:Nyttend/category Testing";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                 | Will this work?                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140531191306 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Guyana-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Guyana stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140531215019 | Wolbo                |            14 | Rafael_Nadal_tennis_season                                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:36:"Category:Rafael Nadal tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                          | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531215728 | Wolbo                |            14 | Juan_Martín_del_Potro_tennis_season                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:Juan Martín del Potro tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                 | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531220026 | Wolbo                |            14 | Victoria_Azarenka_tennis_season                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:41:"Category:Victoria Azarenka tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                     | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531220209 | Wolbo                |            14 | Li_Na_tennis_season                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:29:"Category:Li Na tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                 | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531220441 | Wolbo                |            14 | Andy_Murray_tennis_season                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:35:"Category:Andy Murray tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                           | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531220855 | Wolbo                |            14 | Novak_Djokovic_tennis_season                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:38:"Category:Novak Djokovic tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                        | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531221059 | Wolbo                |            14 | Maria_Sharapova_tennis_season                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:39:"Category:Maria Sharapova tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                       | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531221347 | Wolbo                |            14 | Roger_Federer_tennis_season                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:37:"Category:Roger Federer tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                         | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140531222310 | Denhud               |            14 | Badminton_at_the_Summer_Youth_Olympics                                             | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:40:"Category:Badminton at the Youth Olympics";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140601025259 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | UK_road_articles_by_quality                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:UK road transport articles by quality";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025358 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | A-Class_UK_road_articles                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:43:"Category:A-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                   | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025441 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | B-Class_UK_road_articles                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:43:"Category:B-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                   | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025552 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | C-Class_UK_road_articles                                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:43:"Category:C-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                   | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025649 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Category-Class_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Category-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025748 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Disambig-Class_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Disambig-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025822 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Draft-Class_UK_road_articles                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:47:"Category:Draft-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                               | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025858 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | FA-Class_UK_road_articles                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:44:"Category:FA-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                  | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601025929 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | FL-Class_UK_road_articles                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:44:"Category:FL-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                  | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030010 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Future-Class_UK_road_articles                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:48:"Category:Future-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                              | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030100 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | GA-Class_UK_road_articles                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:44:"Category:GA-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                  | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030130 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | List-Class_UK_road_articles                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:List-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030156 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | NA-Class_UK_road_articles                                                          | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:44:"Category:NA-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                  | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030247 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Project-Class_UK_road_articles                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:49:"Category:Project-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                             | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030317 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Redirect-Class_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Redirect-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030352 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Start-Class_UK_road_articles                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:47:"Category:Start-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                               | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030439 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Stub-Class_UK_road_articles                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:Stub-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030508 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Template-Class_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Template-Class UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030537 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Unassessed_UK_road_articles                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:46:"Category:Unassessed UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030726 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | UK_road_articles_by_importance                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:49:"Category:UK road transport articles by importance";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                             | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030826 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | High-importance_UK_road_articles                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:51:"Category:High-importance UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                           | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030853 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Low-importance_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Low-importance UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030925 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Mid-importance_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Mid-importance UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601030957 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | NA-importance_UK_road_articles                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:49:"Category:NA-importance UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                             | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601031024 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Top-importance_UK_road_articles                                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:Top-importance UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601031051 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Unknown-importance_UK_road_articles                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:54:"Category:Unknown-importance UK road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                        | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601041747 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Australian_road_transport_articles_by_quality                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:Australia road transport articles by quality";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                         | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601041854 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | A-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:A-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601041928 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | B-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:B-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042019 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | C-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                         | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:50:"Category:C-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                            | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042107 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Category-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Category-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042303 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Disambig-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Disambig-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042501 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | FA-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:51:"Category:FA-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                           | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042530 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | File-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:File-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                         | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042602 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | FL-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:51:"Category:FL-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                           | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042641 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Future-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:55:"Category:Future-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                       | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042744 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | GA-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:51:"Category:GA-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                           | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042818 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | List-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:List-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                         | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042843 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | NA-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:51:"Category:NA-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                           | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601042930 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Portal-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                    | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:55:"Category:Portal-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                       | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043010 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Project-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:56:"Category:Project-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                      | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043040 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Redirect-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Redirect-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043108 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Start-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:54:"Category:Start-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                        | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043138 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Stub-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:Stub-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                         | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043210 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Unassessed_Australian_road_transport_articles                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:53:"Category:Unassessed Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                         | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043326 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Australian_road_transport_articles_by_importance                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:56:"Category:Australia road transport articles by importance";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                      | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043411 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | High-importance_Australian_road_transport_articles                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:58:"Category:High-importance Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                    | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043444 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Low-importance_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Low-importance Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043511 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Mid-importance_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Mid-importance Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043537 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | NA-importance_Australian_road_transport_articles                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:56:"Category:NA-importance Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                      | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043603 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Top-importance_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Top-importance Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601043627 | Imzadi1979           |            14 | Unknown-importance_Australian_road_transport_articles                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:61:"Category:Unknown-importance Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                 | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601085005 | Wolbo                |            14 | Serena_Williams_tennis_season                                                      | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:39:"Category:Serena Williams tennis seasons";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                       | Plural                                                                                                                                            |
| 20140601124834 | Evad37               |            14 | Draft-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:54:"Category:Draft-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                        | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601125239 | Evad37               |            14 | Template-Class_Australian_road_transport_articles                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:57:"Category:Template-Class Australia road transport articles";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                     | common naming convention with the other roads projects                                                                                            |
| 20140601132328 | Tachfin              |            14 | People_from_Ariana,_Tunisia                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:28:"Category:People from Aryanah";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                  |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140601151919 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Hawaii-related_stubs                                                               | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:21:"Category:Hawaii stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                         | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140601152158 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Hungary-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Hungary stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140601214728 | Victor Lopes         |            14 | Universities_in_São_Paulo_(state)                                                  | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:56:"Category:Universities and colleges in São Paulo (state)";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                       | so it follows the established naming pattern                                                                                                      |
| 20140601235523 | Xoegki               |            14 | Chief_ministers_of_Telangana                                                       | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:37:"Category:Chief Ministers of Telangana";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                         |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140602052334 | Anthony Appleyard    |            14 | Joaquim_Maria_Machado_de_Assis                                                     | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:25:"Category:Machado de Assis";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                                     | Requested at ] as uncontroversial (])                                                             |
| 20140602052338 | Anthony Appleyard    |            14 | Novels_by_Joaquim_Maria_Machado_de_Assis                                           | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:35:"Category:Novels by Machado de Assis";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                           | Requested at ] as uncontroversial (])                                                             |
| 20140602065321 | Fayenatic london     |            14 | Fortification_in_Central_America                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:42:"Category:Fortifications in Central America";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                    | ]                                                  |
| 20140602121847 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Iceland-related_stubs                                                              | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:22:"Category:Iceland stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                        | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140602122043 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | India-related_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:India stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140602122502 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Qatar_stubs                                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:25:"Category:Qatar stubs/temp";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                     | Moving out of the way temporarily - will move back                                                                                                |
| 20140602122604 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Qatar-related_stubs                                                                | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:Qatar stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140602122652 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Qatar_stubs                                                                        | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"User:Od Mishehu/dev/null";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140602122723 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Qatar_stubs/temp                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:20:"Category:Qatar stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                          |                                                                                                                                                   |
| 20140602124126 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Sri_Lankan_stubs                                                                   | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Sri Lanka stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140602124147 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Sri_Lanka-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Sri Lanka stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140602125034 | Od Mishehu           |            14 | Indonesia-related_stubs                                                            | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:24:"Category:Indonesia stubs";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"1";}                                                                                                      | History merge                                                                                                                                     |
| 20140602134455 | Icarusgeek           |            14 | Actors_from_Punjab                                                                 | a:2:{s:9:"4::target";s:34:"Category:Actors from Punjab, India";s:10:"5::noredir";s:1:"0";}                                                                                            | Original name was inconsidered and although nested under an Inian actor category, did not by name distinguish from Actors from elswehre in Punjab |
+----------------+----------------------+---------------+------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

For reference (sorry about the horrible formatting). Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Note that I've submitted gerrit:135283 and gerrit:135284, which will allow both Special:Log and the API to be used to filter log entries by namespace, so in the future, queries won't have to be ran manually to see this kind of information. Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

So so far the error rate is about 10% based on reversals without an extensive review. Not a good beginning. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:43, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Patrollers can look here for real-time patrolling - all category moves which don't supress a redirect (only admins, bots and 'crats can supress it) leave an edit there. This doesn't, however, give us information about reversed moves, moves where the redirect was subsequently deleted, or where some user removed the template. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I've just updated the above list. Jackmcbarn (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

FYI, almost all of mine (all excepot the first, I think) are actually history merges. Now that we can fix these, I've started to work on doing it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:01, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

A list as of the end of Jack's, without the end of my history merges, can be found at User:Od Mishehu/cat moves in a more readable format - including marking non-admins in bold. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:08, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I've once again updated the list. This is the last update I'll post here, as starting on Thursday, you will be able to filter for category moves via the API. Jackmcbarn (talk) 14:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

So one coder is better than the foundation?

I have to say that I am utterly shocked by this.

When the foundation wanted to implement something (schools, etc.) and the community wasn't happy about it, the foundation started an RfC, the community had its say, and the implementation went forward per the community.

But in this case, since User:Jackmcbarn wants it, and since User:Jackmcbarn coded it, we the community have no say and this one coder bringing it to other coders trumps the community?

Is this really how things work now?

This is not hyperbolic hysterionics. This is a sincere question. And one I think may need to be posed to the Foundation.

Somehow, I just don't think this situation meets the exception listed here: Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Decisions_not_subject_to_consensus_of_editors - jc37 02:32, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I submitted the patch. The developers accepted it. The default behavior is to allow anyone to move categories (because that's what's appropriate for new installations of MediaWiki, and in fact the developers questioned why it was even possible to restrict it), so that's what it was introduced with here. If we get consensus here, the sysadmins will be more than happy to restrict it, but we don't have that yet. Also, note that I did request they restrict it here initially, but they denied that due to lack of consensus. Jackmcbarn (talk) 03:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have a different picture of MediaWiki development, that's not really how it works. It's an open source project that anyone can submit patches for, and those that are of good quality get accepted. The "English Misplaced Pages community" does not control MediaWiki development. We've wanted native category redirects and moving for YEARS now, and Jack took the initiative to get the first step out of the way. Having a bot move categories is a broken system that we really need to get rid of. Legoktm (talk) 03:53, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Please take a moment and read Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard/Archive_25#Revising_the_user_rights_for_the_Education_Program_extension.

If the foundation deemed that it should ask a community, why is this situation any different? Read some of those statements there, including by several long standing Wikipedians and at least one Arb at the time.

If you want to fix the system, have an rfc for implementation, learn implementation details from those who do the work in the trenches. Just doing something for IWANTIT reasons, without even looking over the details is bad implementation, even if we weren't a consensus following community.

You've had nearly every closer from CFD tell you that this is asinine. At what point does the mindless runaway train get stopped to consider repercussions as noted by those of us who actually use the system? - jc37 04:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I read it. That was a WMF employee asking about changing some of enwp's userrights, which a completely different subject IMO. That scenario wanted local crats to manage rights for a WMF-run program (as I understand it).

You still seem to be confused about the English Misplaced Pages community versus the MediaWiki community. They do have a lot of overlap, but are definitely not the same. MediaWiki has different procedures for accepting new patches and features, and a RfC on enwp is definitely not one of them. This feature change does affect enwp, yes, but it also affects every single site that runs MediaWiki, which happens to include 800+ WMF wikis. The needs of WMF wikis are usually taken in to account, and in this case an extra userright is required to move category pages, allowing for easy per-wiki customization. I haven't actually read any comments that this feature is a bad idea. MediaWiki also ships with sane defaults, so it makes sense to give that right to any user who can normally move pages. If enwp wants to change that, that's fine, but some sort of discussion needs to come out with a consensus to do so. I haven't seen anything like that in this thread yet. Legoktm (talk) 05:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, because English Misplaced Pages is nothing special, just one Misplaced Pages among many others, just as important as any other of the 800+ WMF websites. Certainly it's not the flagship of the system or anything like that. BMK (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd be curious to find out: when you take the number of edits, or editors, or users, or page views, or whatever metric you want for the 799+ other sites, it is more than the number of edits, or editors, or users, or page views or whatever for English Misplaced Pages? BMK (talk) 04:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Legoktm, trying to be dismissive because you want this, doesn't make your comments valid. This is merely a userright that's being added too. And if you try to suggest that moving categories is just like moving anything else, I'll point you at the file mover right, and while we're talking doing actions in namespaces, I'll also point you to the template editor user-right.

The reason we have RfCs on such things is so that all the details can be noted. issues worked out etc. I really think this was more a case of coders on some other website deciding they didn't want to go through the process of getting community input and just decided unilaterally. "Oh it'll be fine" are commonly also known as "famous last words". And now when it's clear that this was not supported as implemented, there's all sorts of attempts at dismissive wikilawyering.

But whatever, clearly you are not someone who is listening to the community in this, so no worries, clearly the next step is to petition the foundation, and see what their thoughts are. While I'm at it, I think I'll drop a few notes at arbcom, not for them as a committee (as I don't know if this is under their purview), but merely as a large swath of Wikipedians voted that they trusted their judgement. I'd be curious as to what they would think of this.

Or to put in another way, I think it's time this discussion grew beyond the confines of WP:AN.

Thanks for helping me come to that understanding.

If anyone else has thoughts on who should be made aware of this, please feel free. As this is being discussed on a noticeboard, a neutral notice concerning this discussion would presumably be considered appropriate canvassing. - jc37 06:21, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

My intention wasn't be dismissive, sorry if I came across that way. The file-mover userright was initially not given to all users due to performance issues (which still exist unfortunately), not because of an RfC or the enwp community's requests, which is why it was initially given to administrators only. The template editor userright applies to all namespaces, so I'm not sure what your point is about that.

Sure, but RfC's are usually for major changes to software (take a look at mw:RfC if you want an idea of what I mean), which this really wasn't. Imagine if every single new feature to MediaWiki had to go through an enwp RfC ;)

It's a bit rude for you to say that I'm not listening to "the community" given that I am just a part of this community as you are. And had I been not listening, I wouldn't have even bothered to comment here. Legoktm (talk) 07:36, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

P.S.: WP:BLAMEWHEEL says it's ArbCom's fault anyways.

Haven't looked at blamewheel in a while, thanks for the smile : )

I think what people are trying to tell you is that this is a major change. Do you remember the several RfCs that it took before giving rollback out? I believe the initial proposal from coders was to give it to every user (I think there are still some out there who feel that way : ) - But due to multiple RfCs now it's a user-right given by admins. Some coders (among others) may not have liked that, but we're a community of more than the coders.

Personally, I think we'd be better with this as a user right given out, rather than automatically to all users.

And yes, in the past, the default almost always was to dump new abilities on the admins first. not because they were better than anyone else, but just because they were (presumably) trusted editors who wouldn't intentionally misuse the ability. then once the admins had tested the abilities out, then it could be discussed whether to broaden things to a large group (autoconfirmed, all users, etc.)

A nice middle ground would be to make this admin grantable, that way, it's still (presumably) in the hands of (presumably) trustworthy editors, without restricting to admins alone.

But as it stands, this has been done and decided arbitrarily by a (oh does, the evil cabal) small group on another wiki, without even bothering to even ask for the insight of those of us who currently implement these things, much less the broader community.

And so, no intention to be rude, I'm merely looking at how it looks so far. And yes, a person can be a fellow Wikipedian and still appear to not be listening to the Wikipedian community. That said, thank you for taking the time to comment here.

I'm trying to decide from here which action to take. I'd like to hope that those who made this decision elsewhere would read this thread and realise that the implementation needs to be changed/fixed. But I'm not seeing evidence of that so far. And so, I guess the next step is as I noted above, let's get other (presumably) trusted Wikipedians aware of this, and the wmf too, as potentially this affects multiple wikimedia wikis. - jc37 20:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Jack, you keep on missing the point. Consensus here amongst some small group of AN watchers is irrelevant. We have longstanding consensus that categories cannot be moved, renamed, or deleted in any way shape or form by normal editors, and ONLY by consensus after discussion can admins take these actions (they aren't allowed to be bold either except in extremely rare circumstances). See 7 years of such at WP:CFD. If users had previously copy/paste moved categories with a redirect trick and an admin discovered it, it would be reverted on sight and the user would be told to go to CFD. There are no exceptions to this practice and it is all encoded in reams of CFD history. Thus your reading of 'no consensus' here based on a few dissenters is irrelevant compared to longstanding consensus. And that's the message you should bring to the devs who control the flag-setting-oracle in the temple. What I suggest is the opposite - before providing this right to users, you need to get consensus for THAT. You certainly won't find such consensus established in writing or in practice anywhere on the wiki as of today.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Why hasn't anyone started an RFC yet? This thread began May 10, it would have almost concluded by now if it was started back then. –xeno 13:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I just about lost it here (laughing). Irrespective of the potential harm in the patch the amount of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT in this discussion is STAGGERING. We can't forget that we are WP:NOTFINISHED. Until we get consensus on who we should trust with this do... what we always do with vandals? Block the bots (since that seems to be the real potential for abuse) until things are sorted out, OR move-protect the categories, OR you know... block the vandals like we've been doing since Jimmy let sysops start doing that. Crazynas 10:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The bots can't be blocked since we rely on them to do regular, by-the-book category moves. We can't move protect the categories since there are tens of thousands, do you have a bot which does that? Seems excessive. And the people doing category moves aren't vandals, in some cases they are good faith editors who see the option to move a category, like a page name, and decide to just do so. Many people seemingly aren't aware that this isn't permitted by consensus yet.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

New guidance to disallow category moves by users

See Wikipedia_talk:Categorization#Limiting_category_moves, please join the discussion and provide your input. The goal is to simply encode long-standing consensus and place it directly in the categorization guideline.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Banned from creating page on organization

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Many users have tried to create a wikipedia page for our LGBTQ youth organization, Everyone Is Gay, and have been limited in doing so as the name flags as spam of some sort. Can anyone help resolve this so our organization (and its founders and initiatives) can have a space here? For validation, etc you can check out everyoneisgay com. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karladelongpre (talk • contribs) 21:21, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

'Validation' requires evidence that your organisation meets Misplaced Pages notability requirements, as demonstrated in third-party published reliable sources. A link to your website proves nothing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:26, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like this doesn't meet notability guidelines, but there's also a title blacklist entry that would prevent creation (it's also covered by two other entries, one for page moves and another for non-confirmed/autoconfirmed accounts). Maybe an admin could make this remaining entry case-sensitive (as was probably intended) or remove it entirely. A proposed article could be created as a draft or userspace draft (or if you're sure that it meets notability, in the main namespace); if the title blacklist is still preventing it, just use a different title (such as an abbreviation) even if not correct and put a note in requesting to move it. Peter James (talk) 22:44, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

You should probably never write an article on your own orignization - please see Misplaced Pages:Autobiography, some of the resons equally apply to your own orginization. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

User::Director in Dalmatia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Director, whom you may remember from Jews and Communism ], is now quite active in Dalmatia. 34 for the last 50 edits to the article are his; most of the remaining edits are attempts to revert or unrevert his changed. Edit summaries include "Rv nonsense" ]. The talk page is completely dominated by Director; his primary interlocutor, User:Silvio1973, writes that without administrative intervention -- of which he despairs -- he plans to leave the project.

Director's most recent talk page entry addresses this user specifically: "The man barely seems to know English and/or has no concept of how to articulate his position, let alone argue for it in some relevant way." ] User:Director is a sophisticated and experienced editor who adeptly stays just this side of the 3RR rule (typically with the assistance of a colleague ready to contribute reverts 3 and 4) and who has a long, long record of WP:OWNing one article at a time by posting floods of edits, every line of which he defends tirelessly. Less experienced editors, and editors without experienced backup, can literally not get a word in edgewise.

I'm uninvolved, and know nothing about Dalmatia after the 4th century. I don't want to get involved. If Misplaced Pages is not to become the exclusive province of zealots and cranks, however, someone needs to step in and do something. The next post will doubtless be User:Director calling for an army of boomerangs; ruat coelum. This may belong at AN/I; I'm posting it here because I think this involves a question of the spirit of Misplaced Pages policy rather than the enforcement of its letter. I do feel it would be wrong to stand by in silence, yet again. MarkBernstein (talk) 00:20, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry to see that Director makes constant reference to Silvio's Italian nationality, referring to him in a belittling way as "the Italian fellow", saying that no doubt he requires half an hour to translate a simple sentence from Director into Italian and other similar comments. I don't know what this dispute is about either but such insults are out of order in my opinion.Smeat75 (talk) 01:53, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, most distressing. "Italian fellow".. Especially since I myself am more than half Italian by ancestry. Have you read some of Silvio's comments on the Balkans and the people thereof? "these situations are common in the Balkans", "I am not from the Balkans - I am a peaceful person", so on and so forth.. -- Director (talk) 02:18, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm always "active on Dalmatia", both on the project and literally: I am Dalmatian (no, not the four-legged variety :)). A few points.

• MarkBersntein and Smeat75 are both most certainly involved with regard to myself. MarkBernstein has made it perfectly clear he bears a grudge against me personally. Over and over again. The user is, by his own virtual admission - "out to get me", so to speak. I request the user please be advised to try and keep his distance, as I certainly (will) do myself.
• MarkBernstein was pinged to the talkpage in question by Silvio1973 , along with several other users, all openly selected on grounds of being personally involved with myself in some dispute (mostly the latest JB dispute). I think no doubt with a mind to soliciting support from those with a personal grudge against me.
• I appeal for a thorough readthrough of the discussion. Among other things, in order to ascertain whether Silvio1973 (talk · contribs) is displaying WP:DE, especially WP:ICANTHEARYOU, to a very large degree. Such that one might well lose one's mind trying to cope, especially if that someone has had the misfortune of having extensive experience "discussing" with the user. Its like a hellish game of Chinese whispers.

"The man barely seems to know English and/or has no concept of how to articulate his position, let alone argue for it in some relevant way." - I stand by that. In spite of the sentence being deliberately taken out of its context - which was an elaboration on how Silvio1973 has directly contradicted himself in just the two latest successive posts, rendering his position once again entirely indiscernible. And while it may be inappropriate to post such comments on an article talkpage, I have no qualms about voicing those concerns here. The conduct of Silvio1973 is simply unbelievable. Trying to discuss with him is, to me at least, a nightmare. I'm puzzling for a means to convey the myriad forms of disruptive behavior the user has engaged in, not only on that talkpage, but elsewhere as well (e.g. Talk:Istrian exodus, especially Archive 3). I could write entire essays full of diffs and complex breakdowns of the user's pattern of conduct.

Firstly. In my personal opinion, the user does not possess sufficient English skills to conduct complex discussions on the English Misplaced Pages. This manifests in two ways: a reluctance to read - and thus properly reply - to user comments on every other occasion (incrementally more and more), and the frequent posting of barely-understandable "word salad" replies. Note especially that the user can, with effort, both read and write in English (as he will no doubt display here) - but the point is that it clearly requires effort, at translation into Italian. When a complex and serious discussion develops, the user pays less and less attention to what is written, and pays less and less mind to keeping his own posts intelligible. To the extreme irritation of those actually attempting to fully discuss an issue with him.
To be sure, a lack of English skills is not, in itself, disruptive - but to therefore ignore other user's posts, and become offended when one's own poorly-written posts are misunderstood, is another kettle of fish.

This, however, is merely one part of the problem. The other is Silvio1973's own conduct independent of any linguistic skills.

• The user inevitably adopts a WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT position, deliberately avoiding to post a relevant argument for his demands - which he nevertheless pushes forward with relentless repetitiveness and edit-warring.
• He will ignore the position of sources he quotes, misquoting them (just so as to stack them). I myself caught the user misquoting sources and/or falsely representing their position on at least a half-dozen occasions.
• When sources against him are presented, he will usually just ignore them and brazenly demand to have his own way regardless. (So in short, complete disregard for WP:V and sources in general)
• He will change his position and argument (when there is one) continuously, according to what is most convenient in replying to a specific post by another user. Often, in fact, contradicting himself directly (completely unphased by that, he just moves on). This I have attempted to demonstrate on the talkpage in my latest couple of posts there.
• Silvio will always assume bad faith, thinking that you might be "up to something" when you do your best to simply follow sources. His own lack of knowledge with regard to Misplaced Pages policies, makes such assumptions on his part all the more offensive. This is I think particularly obvious in this matter, as he seems to think I have introduced some kind of slant to the article (a claim for which he provides no backing, as per usual).
• The user will periodically express contempt and apply offensive stereotypes to Croats and people from the Balkans in general, assuming an air of superiority.

My work on the Dalmatia article was conducted in the most complete spirit of good faith and NPOV. And I've done my best to display the various areas on the map I created (posted two years ago now), and to equitably explain the various points of view found in sources with regard to Dalmatia's extent. Silvio1973's argument, in its most recent form (remember he changes it around), amounts to a claim of "WP:UNDUE" for which he refuses to provide any sources in the way of support. In spite of repeated pleas and requests. But he nevertheless continues on arguing for his POV regardless, ignoring one post after the other. You hear things like "UNDUE is a matter of policy, not sources!".

There's much, much more. But as this thread was posted at about 4 AM in my time zone, I am going to have to leave it at that for now. With Silvio1973, one always starts with a surplus of good will, which he swiftly drains. All the more swiftly for any previous (nightmarish) encounters. Above all: please do read the discussion at Talk:Dalmatia (and the previous altercation at Talk:Istrian exodus) to get a clear picture of what I'm talking about. If this matter is to be properly evaluated, I fear it will probably take some uncomfortable amounts of reading. -- Director (talk) 02:18, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

(ec) I hit an edit conflict asking MarkBernstein exactly how he became aware of this situation, having professed to know nothing about the topic area, but I see above it is because the other editor that pinged pretty much every editor that Director has had a conflict with of late. I find that to be a bit disconcerting. Tarc (talk) 02:25, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I've been reading (and have volunteered at) DRN, which in theory and principle might address the sort of problems that occurred in Jews and Communism, that are occurring here, and which if unchecked will eventually lead to the marginalization of Misplaced Pages. There was an attempt to request help from DRN earlier this week; it was turned down because an RFC was in progress. A few days later, I noticed the ping from User:Silvio1973, who is clearly vexed at User:Director's unremitting combativeness, and suggested he refer the matter to AN/I. He replied, sensibly, that he had other obligations in life; my concern, again, is that under the cover of observing policy User:Director is in fact owning another page. Having an hour to spare and no reason to be involved in Dalmatia, I thought it worthwhile to see whether administrators could and would distinguish what perhaps might be construed as nominal adherence to policy from a long-standing pattern of abuse that is far from, and has frequently been inimical to, the interests of the project. I believe this is the entire history of my involvement here, as requested by Tarc.MarkBernstein (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Are we "marginalizing Misplaced Pages" again, MarkBernstein? Since this isn't the first time I've had to read these sort of "appeals", please don't mind if I ask: how in the world can you pretend to gauge the supposed "marginalization of Misplaced Pages", and especially the effects of some specific action or other on said alleged process? Be that as it may, I'm sure our project would particularly benefit from less malicious WP:HOUNDING, grudge-bearing, and especially less personal attacks and character assassination.

You are here solely because of my having opposed your point of view and edits in the previous dispute, where I was subjected by you to a relentless barrage of the most serious and appalling personal attacks and insults. Its a grudge, plain and simple. Please spare me the distaste of having to see it cloaked in painstakingly-crafted sentimental "appeals", or references to an imaginary process you alone are the oracle of. -- Director (talk) 03:09, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Let's leave it for other websites to discuss the unknown motivations of MarkBernstein because the issue that should be of concern for AN is that yet another page (Dalmatia) is the subject of ugly bickering. How can that bickering be resolved? The only thing we can be confident of is that MarkBernstein is not contributing to the underlying problems. Johnuniq (talk) 03:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

(EC) Well if you want to guarantee 'bickering' with someone you are in conflict with, one way to do it is to canvass a load of editors to a discussion you know are already in conflict with the other editor. That is never going to resort in any sort of dispute resolution. I would suggest a topic ban between MarkBerkstein and Director at this point as its clear their interactions only escalate. And in this instance its pretty clear MarkBernstein adds nothing to the discussion except drama.

As for the talkpage, its unfair to say Director 'dominates' the discussion any more than it would be to say Silvio dominates it. The Dalmatian talkpage is just another common or garden content dispute over boundaries. It should be familiar to anyone who has seen some of the UK historic/modern county arguments in the past. You could literally argue all day about if a historic region should also be depicted in its current setting. Suggest its taken to formal mediation. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:13, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I want to briefly point out that this is not a Misplaced Pages iteration of a "real-life" territorial dispute. Unlike with Istrian exodus, so far as I know nobody disputes over what Dalmatia's ethereal borders are. -- Director (talk) 13:43, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq:, I see your point and actually agree. However I feel so intimidated that I would never felt strong enough to open this discussion, so I must thank MarkBernstein for raising this issue. Dear Johuniq, Director really treats like shit (I am sorry for the word but that's a fact) everyone who disagrees with him. Hereafter a small extract of the dozens of "nice" things we wrote about me. The sad thing is that I never did something like this to him (and I could not, because it is against the education I received). The saddest thing is that he behaves like that not just with me, but with a lot of other users. And of course at the end people react at risk to be blocked. Is this is normal?

30 May 2014 Since it is clearly impossible to briefly elaborate on this subject without Silvio1973 arriving to write odes to the tragic departure of Italians (who's fascist authorities invaded their neighbors, occupied the region, and herded people to concentration camps, with the frequently-stated intent to Italianize and cleanse the Slavic barbarians, never extraditing their war criminals)...

19 February 2014 - Lets be blunt: Silvio is an Italian-nationalist POV-pusher who goes around the project searching for areas where he believes Italy has been "wronged" and then posts masses of posts in bad grammar that ignore most of Misplaced Pages's policies ("heraldry expert"?) in pushing a pro-Italian bias.

31 October 2013 - User:Silvio1973 is here only through following my edits, as a sort of petty "revenge" for my opposing his edits elsewhere. He is not here to provide a constructive position, but only to oppose my own, and you may expect that's pretty much all he's going to do (in poor English). I personally doubt he has any background understanding of the Republic of Kososo issue.

28 September 2013 - You are obviously and unfortunately unable to contribute here due to your lack of English skills. You do not posses sufficient knowledge of the language this wiki is written in. Go away please. I will not be the only moron on this project stupid enough to discuss with someone who doesn't understand me.

28 September 2013 - You are obviously and unfortunately unable to contribute here due to your lack of English skills. You do not posses sufficient knowledge of the language this wiki is written in. Go away please. I will not be the only moron on this project stupid enough to discuss with someone who doesn't understand me.

22 September 2013 - I used to think its a communication issue. But now I'm convinced you're just a nationalist POV-pusher attempting to have his way through fraudulent referencing and edit-war. You would have to be institutionalized if you did not understand: #1 non-Italian/Yugoslav sources. #2 Scholarly. #3 With page number and quote. Very simple...

--Silvio1973 (talk) 08:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to waste effort "retaliating" by posting Silvio's own attacks (and borderline-racist comments) out of context. I'm only going to repeat my advice and appeal for a thorough examination of the discussions at Talk:Istrian exodus/Archive 3, Talk:Istrian exodus, and now Talk:Dalmatia. I would have reported Silvio1973 a long time ago if there was an easier way to have a look at what he does, other than examining a long-time pattern of multiple forms of disruption. -- Director (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Silvio, why did you ping editors with whom Director has had past arguments with? Director's combatants list should not have been pinged, and one of the combatants should not have filed an AN report on a matter that he was not involved in. This all simply smacks of collusion to monitor an editor and leaping to AN/ANI at the first perceived misstep. Tarc (talk) 14:22, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Yep, strong smell of fish. DeCausa (talk) 18:45, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Tarc and DeCausa. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:54, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Ladies, Gents, I don't know why this ANI was filed. The only thing I know is that I would like Director to speak me better. At the end of the day I do not have similar problem with anyone else, whilst Director got the same problem with a lot of people. However and again, I just would like to be respected more. Silvio1973 (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:BLANKING

I have proposed a change to WP:BLANKING, regarding which notices a user under sanction (topic or other ban, block, etc.) is or is not allowed to remove from his or her user talk page.

Please see: Misplaced Pages talk:User pages#Current wording of the first bullet does not reflect actual practice TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

USER:DIRECTOR'S CONDUCT

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Dear users, I did not post, neither requested User:MarkBernstein to post on the Administrators' noticeboard anything concerning Director's conduct.

Indeed I do it now by myself, because I can defend myself alone.

Hereafter there is a small extract of some of the "nice things" that User:Director told me during the last 9 months. Indeed he got so used to deal with me impolitely, that he assumes he got this right for granted. Allegations of me being a fascist or having sympathy with a fascism are particularly disgusting and are actually false. And I cannot imagine that Director does not expose himself to a sanction if he cannot provide any citation showing my sympathy with the fascism.

1 June 2014 - Maybe you should correct your behavior, curtail the disruption, and stop with the condescending, arguably-racist, Mussolini-style comments about the Balkans and everyone from there?

30 May 2014 - Since it is clearly impossible to briefly elaborate on this subject without Silvio1973 arriving to write odes to the tragic departure of Italians (who's fascist authorities invaded their neighbors, occupied the region, and herded people to concentration camps, with the frequently-stated intent to Italianize and cleanse the Slavic barbarians, never extraditing their war criminals)...

19 February 2014 - Lets be blunt: Silvio is an Italian-nationalist POV-pusher who goes around the project searching for areas where he believes Italy has been "wronged" and then posts masses of posts in bad grammar that ignore most of Misplaced Pages's policies in pushing a pro-Italian bias.

31 October 2013 - User:Silvio1973 is here only through following my edits, as a sort of petty "revenge" for my opposing his edits elsewhere. He is not here to provide a constructive position, but only to oppose my own, and you may expect that's pretty much all he's going to do (in poor English). I personally doubt he has any background understanding of the Republic of Kososo issue.

28 September 2013 - You are obviously and unfortunately unable to contribute here due to your lack of English skills. You do not posses sufficient knowledge of the language this wiki is written in. Go away please. I will not be the only moron on this project stupid enough to discuss with someone who doesn't understand me.

28 September 2013 - You are obviously and unfortunately unable to contribute here due to your lack of English skills. You do not posses sufficient knowledge of the language this wiki is written in. Go away please. I will not be the only moron on this project stupid enough to discuss with someone who doesn't understand me.

22 September 2013 - I used to think its a communication issue. But now I'm convinced you're just a nationalist POV-pusher attempting to have his way through fraudulent referencing and edit-war.

Now, Director has claimed many times that he was pushed to write such comments because I display ] and because my English is so poor that I do not understand what he tries to tell me. Now, my English is far from being perfect but it is largely enough to understand what all other users on Misplaced Pages tell me. Indeed I never encountered any similar problem with any other user, just with Director.

Director often claims that I do not understand nor wants to listen his arguments. Actually, I do listen very carefully Director's arguments and understand them quite well, but sometime I disagree. Hereafter an example. I posted a RfC on the Talk:Dalmatia in the hope to find a solution to a discussion that has already filled 3 archived. I am not the only one disagreeing with the cut that Director is giving to the article. Indeed, Also User:Joy and disagreed with him (both are users with big experience and I want to state that usually are not on my side), but Director did not pay any respect to mine and their comments and continued to edit the article his way despite the RfC was open (more than 30 edits since the RfC was opened). Of course I did not even dare to revert any of Director's edits because this would have likely driven to an edit war. Unfortunately even just the fact that I disagreed on the talk page was enough to make Director comfortable enough to write me:

27 May 2014 - You don't read what's being told. You push an Italian POV relentlessly and with no regard to sources, which you routinely misrepresent, misquote, delete, or cherry-pick only parts of what they state.

And BTW I do not see where is the Italian POV. Indeed Director often claims that when I disagree with him I push an Italian POV. Even when there is no Italian POV at all.

Perhaps what Director does not like is that I am almost immune to his provocation. Indeed I rationalize always what he says and never react. And yes, I can handle a lot but this does not mean that I like it or look for it.

Finally I want to be very clear on one thing. I am not posting this edit because I want Director's conduct put under scrutiny or worse because I want him to be blocked. No, I just would like that he starts to treat me with more respect. Because what he does hurts. It hurts a lot. Of course it is possible that Director deals with me in a way that is fully conform to Misplaced Pages's guidelines. In that case, I kindly ask to an administrator to tell me that this is normal, because this would mean that this project is not for me. I do not, by instance, call the other users extremist or fascist when they disagree with me.

However a concept has to be crystal clear. If Director believes that he is right and that I am opposing wrong arguments, he can post an RfC or request a 3O. If he thinks that I am voluntarily disruptive he can post an ANI and make me blocked. But Director has not the right to deal with me improperly. And he has not the smallest right to qualify my English of being too poor to participate to this project nor to post any allegations about my political beliefs. Last but not least, Director has not the smallest right to write that I have the smallest sympathy with the Fascism. This is nauseating and actually wrong, because I have no sympathy for the darkest years of the history of Italy.

There is a small appendix to this post. Pushed to the exasperation by Director's words, last month I wrote that possibly Director had a confrontational attitude not because he wanted to do so, but perhaps because he's from a region of the world (the Balkans) where people can be confrontational. Now I realize I was wrong, very wrong. Clearly Director's attitude has nothing to do with his country of origin. Silvio1973 (talk) 23:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• WTF? You saw the closure 2 or 3 sections above, right? the panda ₯’ 23:19, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course I did. And I do not discuss (and BTW I had not the slightest idea MarkBernstein wanted to post an ANI). However, I want just to know if the way Director deal with me is normal and acceptable. If it is acceptable, it means this project is not for me. Silvio1973 (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

As I said elsewhere, open an WP:RFC/U and edit elsewhere until it's resolved, if editing a website is causing you that much grief the panda ₯’ 00:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The user does not understand that his own behavior at least contributes to (and I would say causes) the deterioration of civil discourse. This kind of obstinacy and failure to notice any fault in his own conduct, is a big part of that "contribution". Any RfCU the user posts, with the customary out-of-context cherry-picked quotes, and the standard canvassing of any users he believes may hold a personal grudge against me from the recent dispute - can yet again only be replied to in terms of "just read the discussion..". Viewed out of its context of Silvio1973's truly incredible disruption my own conduct can indeed be regarded as uncivil, but I personally hold that given the former, it was in fact much less so. Indeed, from my point of view, it can be seen as a display of some considerable patience in the face of nightmarish behavior. -- Director (talk) 04:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Can a single edit be an edit war?

This is something I have seen more than once and I believe may have been discussed here at one point, but I wanted clarification. Can a single edit be an edit war?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:48, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

The question is impossible to answer without context. Which single edit do you have a question about, and please provide background context so we know what the prior history of all involved accounts are. --Jayron32 02:17, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I am basically asking a procedural question and is generic overall, with no current situation. I should mentioned that, I had come to believe, from reading the comments of others overtime that even a single edit can be an edit war and that it need not always or necessarily be multiple edits that violate 3RR. I may well have been misguided with either what I was told or its meaning, but...since I am asking this question I will use myself as an example where I had been blocked by an admin (years ago) for a single edit I made on the Occupy Wall Street article. I reverted an edit and then went to discuss what to do next with the editor I had reverted and we were discussing a compromise between what I had written and what he thought could change. I was blocked within about 5 minutes. I feel that mentioning that admin is unfair as I am not questioning their actions. This was without previous reverts, but after I had added some content and it was deleted by a new editor to the article and my edit constituted a revert of a revert. I was told that since I have a history of edit warring a can be blocked for a single edit if the administrator felt it was an act of edit warring (I'm just guessing but probably broadly construed). The admin felt that I would be seeking a consensus and unblocked me sometime later the following day, which could have been after a few hours as that was late in the evening. So from that I gathered is, at the very least, an editor that has a history of edit warring, that makes an single revert of someone else's revert, on a controversial article could be seen as edit warring. This seems to be reasonable logic and have since just come to understand it as accurate. I have repeated it before, but it is possible that I am misleading myself. I don't know if this is a question of policy but stems from a proposed text I suggested where I worded in that a single edit could be an edit war. Obviously because I am asking it wasn't supported, but that is not the reason I ask and there is no situation or edit war. I hoped to get clarification for myself. Perhaps multiple opinion or a discussion of administration method on this.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

A single edit can't be a "war". But you can implicate yourself in a war with a single edit. Misplaced Pages:Tag team. In edit wars, there are no legally defined rules of engagement. The combatants are not uniformed. Our volunteer admins are not trained arbiters of war. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The point is, a terse or trite statement of "is <very general idea> a violation of policy worthy of blocking" will always be unanswerable. Even based on your explanation and characterization above of your own personal experience, without diffs and a full history, there is literally no way to decide if a block is, or is not, warranted in that situation; never mind the very general question you asked which is impossible to answer. We don't even know what a "single edit" means, unless we know the full history of the articles in question, the history of the accused and other participants in the subject matter the article is about, etc. etc. What one person characterizes as a "single edit" another may characterize as "yet another in a long string of tendentious editing, stalking, and otherwise disruptive behavior which has been going on for months across a wide range of articles and needs to be stopped eventually." I have no knowledge of your own specific situation, but your basic premise in the original post is FAR TOO VAGUE to make any meaningful statement about. If we were to "rule" on such vague question, such a "ruling" could easily be used by people trying to "game the system" one way or another. Instead, we can only make rulings on specific situations with a full history, before we decide what we should or should not block someone for. Any other discussion in this direction is pointless. (post EC comment to SmokeyJoe's answer). I'd take issue with the notion that a "single edit" can't be a "war". The problem is that tendentious editing can spread across several articles in a specific subject area, and what one person characterizes as "being blocked for edit warring when I only made one edit" someone else could see as "months long disruption over many articles which finally reached the tipping point." Without a full history, I'm not comfortable telling anyone that "a single edit is not edit warring" We simply can't say that without knowing which single edit is being cited as blockable, and what the full history of the conflict leading up to the block is. --Jayron32 03:38, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

A single edit can't be a "war". A single edit is an edit unconnected to any history of other problem edits, or other problem editors, anywhere. If there is a history of conflict, and the editor is at all involved, not necessarily actively involved, then the phrase "a single edit" is being used misleadingly, even deceptively.

A single edit, made in good faith, by someone not playing games with others, is always to be welcomed. I completely agree with Jayron32's intent. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's the crux, isn't it? Which is why I am uncomfortable making any statements without knowing specifics. If we give any indication that what the OP is calling a "single edit" may be fine, if the full context shows that it isn't, then we've just given unwitting fodder to defend what actually isn't a defensible position. On the other hand, maybe the OP was treated unfairly all these years ago. We just can't say, without context. --Jayron32 04:39, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

If Country A bombs Country B is that a war? Until Country B retaliates, it's an attack, not a war, although it can be taken as a declaration of war. Until there's reciprocity, however, there's no war.

Except... Look back into the history. The "attack" may have been retaliation for something that happened a long time ago (bearing in mind that on the Internet a "long time" can be a couple of months). So it's important to get the history right, in order to get the context, to see if what looks likes an isolated attack is actually a response to an earlier one. In the RW, people have long memories, and there's no reason to think that it's any different online -- so what appears to be a one-off incident can turn out to be a delayed reaction to something that happened in the past, and it should be incumbent on the admin looking at the situation (sorry) to do due diligence and figure out what's going on. Too often the response is to the immediate action, and not to the long-term situation. Of course, that's made harder by socking and by IP hoppers (who hide their identity by changing IPs frequently), so mistakes can easily be made. BMK (talk) 04:56, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I think Jayron32 confuses my question with a request for a ruling or even a discussion of my situation used as an example. It is not a question of whether or not I was or was not indeed blocked for a single edit, it is merely the example of how the implication was first presented and heard over time (That I have come to accept) that, even a single edit could be seen as an edit war or even as part of an edit war, whether even similar edits with any similar situations were present with the same editors. Simply put, is the premise that a single edit can be an edit war valid? Has it ever happened, could it ever happen and can you imagine a scenario where it is possible or is it an impossibility on the face of it.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Define "single edit" in an unambiguous way. Until we know what you mean by such a concept, we can't say whether or not you could be blocked for it. I am not, was not, and will not be (to cover all available tenses) referring to you or any situation you were in in any of my responses. The problem is "is <insert poorly defined term here> a blockable offense" is an unanswerable question. I have no idea (and still do not) what you mean by a "single edit". The only way I could know what you meant is if I had some examples, with history and context, to go by. Otherwise, there's no way to provide a meaningful answer to your question. In my experience, when a person claims they were "blocked for edit warring when they only made a single edit", there's one of two possibilities. Either they were actually unfairly blocked, or they are using a self-serving and inaccurate use of the concept of "single edit" to make it look like they weren't misbehaving when they were. Again, this has nothing to do with you. Just that we can't answer your question meaningfully for all cases. We need to assess every case on its own. --Jayron32 05:12, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

(ec) A simple definition of singular edit, without another edit within a 24 hr period to new content. Or a single revert of the reversion of adding content for example where the other editor objects (that still seems to be the most common example I can think of) deletes it and a revert is your first reversion of article in a 24 hr period (where only clearly there is just normal additional content being created that itself does not violate any policies guidelines or procedures) Could a singular edit itself with no other in 24 hours ever be seen as an edit war in any scenario? Or even a single "revert" after content creation....or any other possible way an administrator might see a possibility that a "single edit" could be seen (even if no block is given) as an edit war.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:28, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

As noted above, yes. Imagine that a bunch of people are repeatedly reverting each other in that 24-hour period: if you're one of those people, you're participating in an edit war, even if you make just one edit, and even if you've never edited that page before. On the other hand, if it's just you and one other person, one edit by you can't be an edit war: even if you revert the other guy and he promptly reverts you, "it takes two to tango", and coming by just once isn't enough for an edit war. Note that I'm using "one edit" to mean one edit from the software's perspective: it only has one line in Special:Contributions/Mark Miller, the page history will display exactly one line with Mark Miller (talk | contribs | block), and your edit count through Special:Preferences is exactly one larger than if you'd not performed the edit. I have no comment on a situation where you make a series of edits, since the possibilities are virtually endless — I could only offer a comment on a specific situation. Nyttend (talk) 05:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the very scenario you first mention may even have been used once in how a single edit can be seen as edit warring in a discussion I was part of once by someone. Participating in a large group, all reverting the same content back and forth and a single edit participates in that war and is how the tag team implication comes in play. OK, this seems to answer my question. I don't see this as being as important an issue as to ever have it part of anything official because in the long run its more like an essay, the opinion of various editors. I think there is some truth to it and some myth. That in some ways it is a technical count and can always be seen as a "single edit" that is one of many in the click of our edit count. Thanks.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:25, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Generally, I recommend blocking (a short block) all involved in an edit war, over page protection. Page protection doesn't recognize acceptable vs unacceptable behaviours, and puts the warring editors on the same level as other editors trying to discuss. This would see a lot more collateral damage short blocks given to more-or-less innocent editors, but it takes very little investigation to find out that someone's single 1 hour block was a group remedy, and is not evidence of a problem editor, while an editor with a steady history of short blocks is probably appropriately labelled an editor with difficulty in collegiate editing. Mark Miller's short block log (three, averaging less than one per three years, and less than one per 10000 edits) is not evidence, per se, that he is a problem editor, or even unworthy for adminship. On the contrary, without making any effort to investigate any deeper, the lack of repeated blocks for the same reason suggests the valuable ability to learn. And the negotiated unblocks speak further to this. Generally, I think people take occasional short blocks too seriously, both in giving, and receiving. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I think I can follow your logic on how short blocks are better than page protection in many ways. If you look at this through the lens of dispute resolution I think, I might be inclined to look at the individual situation and if the number of involved weren't too high, ask for explanations of the edit before recommending a block. This is not always needed for more blatant efforts where the editor was involved in a discussion and they made a declaration that they were going to make that edit. And I appreciate the comments SmokeyJoe.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Mark has omitted the context: He really is just asking for a general policy statement, because this question is being discussed there. The policy says, "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions". So one of the questions is, if you are innocently looking at diffs in Special:RecentChanges, and you happen to revert someone (perhaps a bit of peacocking, perhaps a bit of unexplained section blanking, perhaps some poor grammar) to an article that you have never edited before or since, are you edit warring? Well, no: the policy says "repeatedly", and you did not "repeatedly" edit the page.

Further: could you (legitimately) be punished for "edit warring" if other people were edit warring, without your knowledge? Imagine that this was the fourth or fifth time that the particular bit of peacocking text had been reverted that day. You had no idea, because you were just looking at RecentChanges. Should the actions of other users even be taken into account in determining your involvement? (NB that this is different from you knowing, e.g., because of talk page message, that an edit war was underway.)

Anyway, if this interests any of you, then please join the discussion at WT:EW. The ultimate goals are to figure out what, exactly, "a revert" is (because a few months ago, an admin went around here saying that any edit at all, after the one that created the page, was "technically a revert") and what, exactly, "an edit war" is (which should paradoxically be easier), but the current main question is whether a section titled "What edit warring is" should continue to claim that "Bold-revert" (with no discussion) is exactly the same thing as "Bold-revert-discuss". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:59, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Need a technical fix

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article Guru Singh was first created on May 2009 about some spiritual Guru. Article was PROD-deleted in Sep 2010. In June 2011 page was re-created about an actor named Guru Singh. Article was nominated for speedy deletion, deleted and then restored. But restoring admin restored all the previous versions of the page i.e. versions about spiritual Guru Singh. Since the previous versions are not about the same subject, can an admin delete those. I came across this while tracking a user who re-wrote this page with his own biography (who did similar vandalism on another page, both of which I have restored). --Vigyani_talk 08:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

 Done. — Edokter (talk) — 09:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Will Any Administrator Here Consider Unblokcing me?

User requesting unblock

This user User_talk:Deass#May_2014_2 is requesting a review. I am still unclear if they understand copyright and am having trouble with their English. They have made statements like "Come on, I'd like to threaten some of this is taking the piss. i'd like my money back, or i'll put someone on the bomb" which I have no idea the meaning. Also concerns of sockpuppetry.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:52, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Competence is required. There's really nothing we can do here. -- John Reaves 16:12, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

• This may put things in perspective. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:39, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
• I removed a 'tlx' from Deass's unblock request to make it active, but can't see any reason why we should consider unblock. The stream of warnings on his talk page indicates he would be in constant need of advice if he continues working here and is unlikely to take advice if it is given. His unblock says, "I don't know about legal/copyright matters. It's not my job to know about that." This is a case of WP:Competence is required. EdJohnston (talk) 17:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I think it might help a lot if the editor indicated which, if any, is his native or local form of English. It might be useful in helping him get some sort of mentoring, and a mentor might help him to a degree with acceptable English around here. Without that information, however, I really wonder if there is anything that could reasonably be done to address the issues which seem to have led to the existing block. John Carter (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

• Mentoring may be useful; short of that, however, I see no reason to unblock this user unless we can find some red line that this user can be trusted not to cross, which would keep him/her reasonably in line with our copyright policy. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:43, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Account belonging to a minor

Reported. Revdel'd. Censored. Notified. Suppressed. Oversighted. and Goodnight. TLSuda (talk) 01:18, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This account claims to be operated by an editor who's years old. I'm pretty sure this is one of those things that isn't cricket? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:21, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

It's apparently okay. I had to look it up. WP:COFAQ#AGE. --j⚛e decker 00:31, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

• It's permitted, but they sure as heck shouldn't a) advertise it, or b) provide anything remotely resembling identifying information the panda ₯’ 00:35, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I reported it at WP:RFO for the guys sake it isn't permitted by policy to tell people it. Dudel250 ChatPROD Log CSD Logs 00:39, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I hit the relevant links here with revdel, if you're already in contact with RFO you might want to pass that along--if they're going to oversight there, they should do it here too. --j⚛e decker 00:50, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Already done. i also did some temporary Censoring and added a notice to his/her userpage. This may take a while Dudel250 ChatPROD Log CSD Logs 00:56, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

• I've suppressed these now, per policy. Thanks, everyone :) - Alison 01:02, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please disposition WP:ANRFC#WT:Shortcut.23Template_shortcuts

Please disposition WP:ANRFC#WT:Shortcut.23Template_shortcuts, which has been open for over one month. --Jax 0677 (talk) 02:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

@Jax 0677: all of WP:AN/RFC is duplicated here at WP:AN so there is no need to place a separate duplicate request. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 12:28, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Reply - This request has been open for more than 30 days, so it is for that reason that I am listing it here. --Jax 0677 (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I see no indication that this even is an RFC, just a normal talk page discussion, so it should probably be removed from ANRFC. Fram (talk) 07:09, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The fact that it's just that is why nobody has attended to the request. I'd remove it myself, but as you can see I've already replied to Jax there. — Scott • talk 09:26, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Looking more clsely, ANRFC is not just for RFC, the "Requests for Closure" and "Requests for Comment" just share an acronym. Still, I see little there that can formally be closed. Fram (talk) 11:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Arbitration motion involving COFS

"The Arbitration Committee has resolved by Motion

Remedy 7 of the COFS arbitration case is vacated with immediate effect. Any extant enforcement actions taken under the remedy remain in force, and shall be treated as if they were imposed under standard discretionary sanctions authorized by remedy 4.1 of the Scientology case.

Archived discussion

Discuss this

For the Arbitration Committee --S Philbrick(Talk) 13:52, 3 June 2014 (UTC)"

Possible IP range block needed?

I've been playing whack-a-vandal for some time with IP editors (probably just one) in the range of 2602:306:25A5:82A9:x:x:x:x. See, for example:

• 2602:306:25A5:82A9:89C3:D5E2:16EE:7F6E (talk · contribs)
• 2602:306:25A5:82A9:E8B0:326F:4521:D1E3 (talk · contribs)
• 2602:306:25A5:82A9:F806:74E7:8326:2FA0 (talk · contribs)
• 2602:306:25A5:82A9:F194:3DA1:C2CC:4BAE (talk · contribs)
• 2602:306:25A5:82A9:6519:693F:9012:6B9F (talk · contribs)
• 2602:306:25A5:82A9:186B:4C7E:B162:9666 (talk · contribs)

and that's just the past four days. There does not seem to be any letting up, even though I block on sight and protect the most-targetted pages.

Is a range block warranted for this group? I don't know much about them so I'm not about to try it myself. ... discospinster _talk 20:02, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

• This is probably all one user. I've blocked 2602:306:25A5:82A9/64 for a week, to see how it goes. Black Kite kite (talk) 20:24, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that was fast! ... discospinster _talk 00:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Another: 2602:306:25A5:82A9:7537:EDB7:D12E:D536 (talk · contribs) --NeilN 01:38, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

This one should have been covered in the above range block. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I have now blocked that range for 2 days, Black Kite blocked 2602:306:0:0:0:0:0:0/64 instead. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that happened! Black Kite kite (talk) 12:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

A large number of articles reference a site which is now something else

silverbulletcomicbooks.com is referenced in 157 articles. The links to reviews and news no longer work, it just a page advertising something, the type of thing you see tossed up whenever someone buys an expired domain. An administrator needs to use their tools to eliminate all those links at once. Dream Focus 23:17, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

There aren't really any admin tools that will help with this, per se; this sounds to my uneducated ear like a job for AWB, so you might have better luck at Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 23:24, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dream Focus: Many of these are external links, and these can just be removed; doing so is not an administrator-specific task. Those that are used as references should not simply be removed. Please see https://archive.org/web/ and refer to Misplaced Pages:Link rot#Repairing a dead link and Help:Using the Wayback Machine.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Use Special:LinkSearch/*.silverbulletcomicbooks.com to search for external links. However, I have used the API to list all articles (only) which contain one or more such links, see User:Johnuniq/sandbox (permalink). I don't have time for it at the moment, but such a list can be fed into AWB. Johnuniq (talk) 10:17, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Requesting for a ban to be lifted (sincerity entailed)

Half a year (actually a bit longer) ago, I underwent a most unfortunate experience and made a few regrettable mistakes, which resulted in me getting blocked indefinitely, topic-banned from editing race-related articles, mainspace creation of articles and getting involved with the DYK? project. I am deeply remorseful for what I have done. Thankfully, I have since been unblocked my a most magnanimous administrator. I will not ask for my topic ban on race to be lifted. It is only the bans on mainspace article creation and nomination of articles at DYK which I wish to be removed, as the former poses a great inconvenience on my editing, and limits what I can contribute to this project, while the latter lowers readership. Please recognise my ability to produce fine, non-controversial content and re-empower me with this right. I believe strongly that I have reformed. Additionally, is this the right platform to make this request? Cheers and love, --☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 08:48, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Note: The opening statement above has been modified slightly because of the good point raised that DYK ban is not an inconvenience. I phrased it loosely and I have since corrected the sentence. A hyperlink has also been added per a suggestion by DangerousPanda. Please view rev history. Thanks ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Bonkers' new "peace and forgiveness" mantra doesn't move me much. To create an article like Eat Frozen Pork and then rush off to nominate it for a DYK right after its creation seems a perfect example of precisely why this restriction is in place. Doc talk 09:31, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Please understand that it is natural for it to have slipped my mind. Now that it is clarified, I will honour the ban and wait for something to be reached. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 10:53, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Of course, Bonkers should have linked to this in their opening statement ... but I can understand why they would want to try and ignore it. the panda ₯’ 09:54, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up, I will. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 10:53, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Why do you claim that a ban on nominating articles at DYK "poses a great inconvenience on my editing, and limits what I can contribute to this project."? Not being allowed to create articles directtly in the mainspace is a minor (and well-deserved) inconvenience, but DYK? Fram (talk) 11:15, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I am happy enough if the mainspace ban can be lifted. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Note that Bonkers the Clown edited his opening post after my reply here, making it inadvertently seem as if I replied to a non-existent claim he made. Anyway, you are straight of an indef block, wouldn't it be a lot better if you first showed six months of problem-free editing before you attempted to get any restrictions lifted as well? Fram (talk) 11:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

But this would be most ideal for me. I was hoping you could agree that I can be trusted to treasure this restriction-lifting. I promise to be a good editor and I just request to be able to create pages directly to mainspace, to make my life easier. However, if nobody is convinced, I am most fine with waiting. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:55, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Why would I agree that you can be trusted? You have been given a final chance to show us that you can be trusted, you haven't given us any compelling reason to believe that that is true though so far. Convince us with your editing, not with promises. Fram (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - it has been 2 days since your indef block was lifted; show 6 months of clean editing and we might consider it. The fact you had to put "sincerity entailed" in your request header says it all, really. GiantSnowman 12:05, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Now that I'm trying to be nicer, you doubt my sincerity. That cuts me deep, Snowman. It really does. :( ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for Eat Frozen Pork, I enjoyed that. When I find the right buttons, I intend to re-nominate it for DYK.

You should not have created an article or DYKed it whilst under such a topic ban though. I expect (given the antipathy towards you) to see you indeffed for having done so. I'm against that, I'd like to see you return - however not like this. It's the flaunting of an existing ban that's more of an issue than any problem with the article you created.

Is there any support for relaxing the ban here so that article creation would be permitted, but only within the draft: namespace? (or your userspace) That allows you to contribute productively, yet provides a review mechanism and doesn't remove the topic ban altogether. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I understand. I forgot about it. Editing has always been my joy, and I am glad my work is appreciated by some. Guess you can't please everybody though. Or, I could submit it through AFC. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I've unblocked you, Bonkers. Everyone deserves a 43rd chance. Happy editing! Lugnuts 12:43, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

What are you going on about, Lugnuts? He isn't blocked, you haven't unblocked him; you can't even unblock someone, not being an admin. Fram (talk) 12:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It's a sad joke. :( ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:04, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

No joking. This place is serious business! Lugnuts 13:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'm prepared to re-block for making significant changes to his "opening statement" after it had already been replied to multiple times, thus changing the meaning of the replies the panda ₯’ 13:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you wish for me to show the diffs or something? I was wanting to clarify my point, having realised that the phrasing was awkward. It's only one line, not the entire thing. Plus, the link I added was per your suggestion! Does even that warrant a block? :( ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

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