Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:00, 15 June 2014

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the London article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Template:Vital article

London has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones Date Process Result August 22, 2005 Peer review Reviewed April 19, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed May 14, 2006 Peer review Reviewed June 11, 2006 Good article nominee Listed September 1, 2006 Peer review Reviewed September 19, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 3, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 18, 2007 Good article reassessment Kept May 29, 2008 Peer review Reviewed June 10, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 12, 2008 Peer review Reviewed November 4, 2008 Featured article candidate Not promoted Current status: Good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. England Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. London Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Cities This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. UK geography Top‑importance This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WikiProject UK geographyUK geography Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Olympics: Paralympics High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Olympics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Olympics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OlympicsWikipedia:WikiProject OlympicsTemplate:WikiProject OlympicsOlympics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is within the scope of the Paralympics task force. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Eurovision Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Eurovision, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Eurovision-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EurovisionWikipedia:WikiProject EurovisionTemplate:WikiProject EurovisionEurovision Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

It is requested that an image or photograph of a London city skyline for the infobox be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible. Wikipedians in London may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

History

As I don't have the confidence I did not add the note that London developed in the years following the Claudian conquest of AD43 The soldiers built a bridge of timber across the Thames just below the present London Bridge. Ref. Oliver, N. 2012. A History of Ancient Britain. Phoenix. ISBN 1 3 5 79 10 8 6 4 2

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at London. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Amend:

Prehistory and antiquity

Two recent discoveries indicate probable very early settlements near the Thames in the London area. In 1999, the remains of a Bronze Age bridge were found on the foreshore north of Vauxhall Bridge. This bridge either crossed the Thames, or went to a (lost) island in the river. Dendrology dated the timbers to 1500BC. In 2010 the foundations of a large timber structure, dated to 4500BC, were found on the Thames foreshore, south of Vauxhall Bridge. The function of the mesolithic structure is not known. Both structures are on South Bank, at a natural crossing point where the River Effra flows into the River Thames.

Although there is evidence of scattered Brythonic settlements in the area, the first major settlement was founded by the Romans in 43 AD. This lasted for just seventeen years and around 61, the Iceni tribe led by Queen Boudica stormed it, burning it to the ground. The next, heavily planned, incarnation of Londinium prospered and superseded Colchester as the capital of the Roman province of Britannia in 100. At its height during the 2nd century, Roman London had a population of around 60,000.

To:

Prehistory

Two recent discoveries indicate probable very early settlements near the Thames in the London area. In 1999, the remains of a Bronze Age bridge were found on the foreshore north of Vauxhall Bridge. This bridge either crossed the Thames, or went to a (lost) island in the river. Dendrology dated the timbers to 1500BC. In 2010 the foundations of a large timber structure, dated to 4500BC, were found on the Thames foreshore, south of Vauxhall Bridge. The function of the mesolithic structure is not known. Both structures are on South Bank, at a natural crossing point where the River Effra flows into the River Thames.

Roman London

Although there is evidence of scattered Brythonic settlements in the area, the first major settlement was founded by the Romans in 43 AD. This lasted for just seventeen years and around 61, the Iceni tribe led by Queen Boudica stormed it, burning it to the ground. The next, heavily planned, incarnation of Londinium prospered and superseded Colchester as the capital of the Roman province of Britannia in 100. At its height during the 2nd century, Roman London had a population of around 60,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theblogger01 (talk • contribs) 2014-06-15 10:36:53

Climate

What is an average climate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.204.254.200 (talk) 6:46 pm, Today (UTC−4)

If the warmest month in the climate chart is greater than 22 Celsius (July is 23.2 Celsius and August is 22.9 Celsius) and the coldest month is greater than 0 Celsius, then shouldn't London be classified as a Humid subtropical climate (Cfa) instead of a temperate maritime climate (Cfb), as the warmest month has to be less than 22 Celsius in order to qualify as Cfb? --135.23.217.194 (talk) 04:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

23.2 °C is London's average daily high July temperature; CfA classification requires overall average above 22 °C in the hottest month. The climate section in the article does not list that data series, but can be estimated at around 18-19 °C (average daily low in July is 13.9). It would take at least 50 more years of global warming for London to get to the humid subtropical. :) No such user (talk) 11:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Collage

First, let me express my general dislike towards the overuse of collages in the infoboxes, because the images they contain are too small to be comfortably viewable, too crammed to decently present the city in a single view, and, last but not the least, occupy vertical space in such a manner that they obscur the vital information in the infobox.

That being said, I must say that the one presented here is probably one of the worst in this regard. Most photos in that collage are already present in the article, i.e. the information is duplicated. After extensive scrolling, I cannot even reach the important information that is supposed to be in the infobox. I don't see any value it adds, except that it occupies space and is, well, colorful and joyful. However, as a reader, I want information. WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE states that "You should always be watchful not to overwhelm an article with images by adding more just because you can.", and this one is sharply on the "can" side.

Just because "everyone does it", aka WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS (and the fad of adding collages and montages stems from ~2007, never really unopposed) is not a good reason to do it here, and please, just put any simple, professional, iconic image of Buckingham Palace or Tower Bridge or whatever. This one is on the bottom end of a slippery slope which was enabled when those collages started to emerge. If you think that it "represents London better", it does it in only one regard: both are quite messy and crammed. If you still insist on a collage, at least drop the indistinct lake and forest, second from the bottom. No such user (talk) 17:14, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

The opposite view has equal merit. A collection of images can be informative just as a collection of words in an infobox. This is one of the best examples I have seen, and is relevant and informative for this article about a city. The caption provides a link for each image just like an info box. Having to scroll down is an inevitable part of reading an article.

A strong view against collages in general is probably a forum or policy discussion.

Disparaging the city that is the subject of the article is probably not a good first step, but if you wish to change the lead image on this article please build a consensus among editors. Whizz40 (talk) 13:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Disregarding ad hominems, I will briefly repeat my points:

• All the images in the infobox images already exist in the article. Therefore, the collage is redundant.
• Individually, they are too small to be immediately recognizable, and appear as a patchwork.
• To a foreigner like myself (and your average Misplaced Pages reader), and someone who has not visited London, only the Westminster Palace one, at the bottom, is immediately recognizable as London (Buckingham palace distant second). All other components could be from just about any major city in the world. Therefore, the iconic and aesthetic value of the introductory image is diminished.
• Most directly, the large collection of images at the top ruins the accessibility, as the information from the infobox is moved several screens below. I have to scroll quite a lot on my 10" tablet to get to contents.
• London has a few truly iconic images: Tower bridge, Big Ben/Westminster palace, Picadily square. Pick a high-quality one, of which there must be plenty around, and let the reader access the high-res version directly. Or at least, make a smaller and friendlier collage.

I would gladly bow to consensus if there was one, but I don't see it. Silence does not equal consensus. I perused the talk archives, and the collage was only debated in /Archive 10#Infobox image in 2012, and it apparently was about a different image than this one, and no apparent consensus was here. This particular image dates from 27 August, when it was introduced into the article by the author, User:Likelife . The previous collage, File:London collage.jpg was at least much smaller and color-consistent. After the revert , you restored this abomination on Aug 31, then on Sep 8 , Dec 24 and Jan 9 . The image author and yourself, who only communicated your preference using edit summaries so far, do not equal "consensus". Where is your consensus for introducing this image in the first place? No such user (talk) 08:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

The smaller collage that is there now is MUCH better than the giant one previously. JimmyGuano (talk) 11:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know of this conversation. The reason I made a new image was simply the first one was and is out of date. For a image of our skyline to be 7 years out of date, without the tallest building in Western Europe and no Heron and Leadenhall buildings doesn't, to me look like an article which is up to date. Secondly, only one image in that collage was even in the article so that argument doesn't make sense. And finally to say the Shard (the tallest in Western Europe), St Pancras station (considered one of the best stations in the world and gateway for European Railway Services) and Canary Wharf (one of the most important finance districts in the world) are not landmarks is baffling in my opinion. Likelife (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Just adding my two cents here. I'm inherently biased as all four of my images were used in the previous collage and half of mine are used in the new and current collage. I recently updated the Buckingham Palace image in the collage with a newer (and potentially more aesthetic image), I hope it's not going to upset anyone. Anyway, my opinion is that the new collage is slightly large. Also, what is the reason for the convention of collages being made PNG files? PNG images are (in my opinion) inferior in a number of ways. Firstly, the file size is enormous for the resolution as there is no compression. Secondly, they are not resized effectively by Wiki's image processing software. As I understand it, the image processor does not apply sharpening to the image and it ends up looking rather soft compared to an equivalent JPG image, which is sharpened. It's obvious even in comparing the collage images above. The Houses of Parliament image is much sharper in the 'previous collage' because the file is a JPG. As for what notable buildings or features should be included in the London infobox, that's a tricky one. However, although Canary Wharf is certainly a notable financial district, User:No such user makes a valid point that it's not recognisable. It's a very anonymous skyline. The Shard building is notable too, and is recognisable, but does it deserve such prominence in the infobox? Anyway, just questions to consider. Ðiliff «» (Talk) 15:35, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

My brief input on the matter. No matter your preference with regard to collage size, the larger collage is a much better effort and representation than the smaller one. As has been noted, the main feature of the small collage is a wholly out of date skyline photo. The collage needs updating, although perhaps not as large as the previous effort. Southlondoneye (talk) 22:27, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

This really needs to be resolved because these two collages are constantly being switched back and fourth. My perspective is that the larger one is better. It's more modern and better reflects London today. Even if it doesn't include the image of the City, I think that's fine because the previous one is far too outdated, the skyline has changed dramatically since 2008. I do think the image of St James Park is overkill and largely nondescript. Whamper (talk) 18:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Template:Edit London In the Education section, please update the university rankings of UCL, ICL and KCL to read: A number of world-leading education institutions are based in London. In the 2013 QS World University Rankings, University College London (UCL) is ranked 4th in the world, Imperial College London 5th, and King's College London 19th.

Done.

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I want to Add below Link to Tourism Tab of London Wiki Page, This Link have detail of travelling London Attraction in 2 Days.

http://uktravelplan.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/london-in-2-days.html

Let me know if more details is needed.

Not done: Per WP:EL. Sam Sailor 08:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

top 20 ethnic groups?

Section Ethnic groups has this: The table to the right shows the 20 most common foreign countries of birth of London residents in 2011, the date of the last published UK Census.
However, the table has 28 entries of which one is "United Kingdom". The part "20 most common foreign countries" is not true, while the rest might be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.141.73.182 (talk) 00:52, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Climate

There seems to be much unsourced anecdotal information in this section. I have removed some of it but it still needs inproving. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

White Britons as minority

References --EditorMakingEdits (talk) 11:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

OK - well done for finding the original BBC article. It's clear from that that this didn't happen 'in 2013', but between 2001 and 2011; and there are a few games being played with the numbers. For example, White Irish people who are a long-established ethnic minority in London are excluded from the figure quoted. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have any statement on this subject, but I feel that the wording of this sentence from Ethnic groups in London is preferable: "According to the 2011 Census, 44.9% of London's residents are White British. London is one of the few places in the United Kingdom in which White Britons comprise less than half of the total population." That's unambiguous, and doesn't give the misleading impression that any other group outnumbers White British. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Geography

"The area of Greater London has incorporated areas that were once part of the historic counties of Middlesex, Kent, Surrey, Essex and Hertfordshire".

The historic counties have not ceased to include those areas. It would be better to say:

"The area of Greater London includes areas that are part of the historic counties of Middlesex, Kent, Surrey, Essex and Hertfordshire" if you are using historic counties in a definitive way, and adding an appropriate link, or

"The area of Greater London includes areas that were once part of the counties of Middlesex, Kent, Surrey, Essex and Hertfordshire", though this leaves you with a non disambiguated use of the term "Counties" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.240.17.66 (talk) 12:58, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Wildlife

Will have to look up Wildlife! - including pigeons. Also the large parks of London! Some work here!

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

London is a kl city evry1 go there

London has been through lots and im only 4 so please answer this im smart for my age

82.108.174.68 (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Can you say which part of the page you want us to change, and what it needs to say instead, please? AlexTiefling (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} 15:57, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

In exactly what year did London first become the capital of a unified England?

In this article, it's loosely suggested that it happened during or just before the reign of Edward the Confessor, near the end of the Wessex (Saxon) dynasty; in the "Wessex" article, it's supposedly some vague time "after" the Norman Conquest. Neither article gives a date, and the second doesn't even give a reign. All articles that discuss London's history as an English capital should give a distinct date and reign for its beginnings as such--especially the most recent occassion.RobertGustafson (talk) 06:22, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

There isn't really a clear date. There's two capitals of England. The administrative capital, Westminster, and the commercial capital, the City of London. Of course, today we collectively refer to these, and the surrounding area as 'London', but at one time they were separate urban areas. When 'London' became the English capital depends on which capital you are referring to. Westminster became the principle (although not exclusive) seat of government by the 12th century, however the City of London was already the largest city, and commercial centre, two centuries earlier. These cities probably merged together to form one urban are a few centuries. When this urban area took on the name 'London', I have no idea. So either, ~10th century, ~12th century or ~14th century, depending on what the source defines as the start of 'London'. Best to give sources for the the establishment of both cities as administrative, and commercial capitals respectively. I'll look sometime. Regards, Rob (talk | contribs) 09:31, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

If you think we have distinct dates for everything that we know happened within various periods of the early Middle Ages, think again. We're not obliged to provide specificity for things where that specificity doesn't really exist. The concept of time immemorial has some relevance here. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:38, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with both. The article handles the matter well, and no change is needed. Johnbod (talk) 12:28, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

1. {{cite web |url=http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2013%7Ctitle=QS World University Rankings - Overall for 2013|accessdate=18 March 2014

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Geography and places good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class England-related articles
• Top-importance England-related articles
• WikiProject England pages
• GA-Class London-related articles
• Top-importance London-related articles
• GA-Class WikiProject Cities articles
• All WikiProject Cities pages
• GA-Class UK geography articles
• Top-importance UK geography articles
• GA-Class Olympics articles
• High-importance Olympics articles
• GA-Class Paralympics articles
• Paralympics task force articles
• WikiProject Olympics articles
• GA-Class Eurovision articles
• Low-importance Eurovision articles
• All WikiProject Eurovision pages
• Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs in London
• Misplaced Pages semi-protected edit requests