Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:50, 19 June 2014

To discuss conflict of interest problems with specific editors and articles, please go to Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard.

"Any editor who discusses proposed changes to WP:COI or to any conflict of interest policy or guideline, should disclose in that discussion if he or she has been paid to edit on Misplaced Pages." - WP:COI

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Conflict of interest page.

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Archive 1 (Dec 2004–Aug 2006) (old pagename: Vanity guidelines) Archive 2 (August–Sept 2006) WT:ECOI (August–October 2006) (Editing with a conflict of interest) Archive 3 (Oct 2006–March 2007) Archive 4 (March–July 2007) Archive 5 (August 2007) Archive 6 (Sept–December 2007) Archive 7 (Jan 2008–Feb 2009) Archive 8 (Feb–September 2009) Archive 9 (Oct–December 2009) Archive 10 (2010)

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Sources on conflict of interest

• Davis, Michael and Stark, Andrew (eds.). Conflict of Interest in the Professions, University of Oxford Press, 2001.
• Krimsky, Sheldon. "The Ethical and Legal Foundations of Scientific 'Conflict of Interest'", in Trudo Lemmings and Duff R. Waring (eds.), Law and Ethics in Biomedical Research: Regulation, Conflict of Interest, and Liability, University of Toronto Press, 2006.
• Lo, Bernard and Field, Marilyn J. (eds.). Conflict of Interest in Medical Research, Education, and Practice, National Academies Press, 2009.
• Stark, Andrew. Conflict of Interest in American Public Life, Harvard University Press, 2003.

Self-promotion

I'm puzzled by the first sentence in this section:

"Conflict of interest often presents itself in the form of self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links, personal or semi-personal photos."

The puzzlement is with the last item, "personal or semi-personal photos". My strong impression is that we want people to submit photos of themselves, if they are the subject of an article (submitting to Commons, with appropriate copyrights, of course). But the above sentence seems to discourage such submissions. Perhaps someone could either clarify the sentence, or correct my misimpression of the desirability of such photos on Misplaced Pages.

And while I'm being nit-picky, I'll note that the first and second sentences of the section are quite redundant, which I believe is a undesirable. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 21:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

In fact, there is a separate section, "Photographs and media files", with a more mixed message. Perhaps an intra-page link to that section? -- John Broughton (♫♫) 22:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

The whole section seemed redundant, so I merged it into another one and left out the bit about images. SlimVirgin 22:13, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I've never actually seen it happen but I can imagine that someone could take a picture of themselves at a location (say, Mount Rushmore) and upload that picture to the article as a sneaky form of self-promotion. The fact that I've never actually seen this, though, makes it such an unlikely occurrence that I don't think it's worth mentioning in the guideline (and probably should be excluded per WP:BEANS). I can't imagine how else it is self-promotion to upload an image, though.

We do sometimes identify a COI through a person's candid picture uploads. If someone takes a picture of a celebrity at the dinner table eating fried chicken in someone's personal home, there is the suggestion that the image uploader is a friend or acquaintance of the celebrity and thus may have a COI in regards to them. But while that might be worth mentioning somewhere, it's not a form of self-promotion. -- Atama頭 23:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

There was a recent case (see contribs) of a user who uploaded selfies and used them to replace images in articles. The images have been deleted, but as I recall the lead image at Thumbs signal was replaced by a picture of the user, and similar edits were made at other articles. Johnuniq (talk) 01:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Statement on Misplaced Pages from participating communications firms

WP:Statement on Misplaced Pages from participating communications firms everybody here should be aware of this. I'll note that I had nothing to do with this (though I was informed of their meeting beforehand). I think it's a great day for Misplaced Pages, but of course this is not the end of the Corporate PR COI problem on Misplaced Pages. Rather it is a great step to build on.

I've suggested on the talk page there, that WP:COI include some sort of statement that we encourage PR firms to sign on to this. Minor problem - the UK based CIPR made a similar statement off-Wiki a couple of years ago and it might be seen as disrespect to our UK fellow editors to favor this US based initiative. So I'll give no concrete suggestions now. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:43, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Very strongly discouraged

There is language in WP:COI that I believe works against the purpose of the guideline, though I'm sure that it was meant to increase the strength of it:

"Paid advocates are very strongly discouraged from direct article editing, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question."

I'll suggest instead:

"Paid advocates should not directly edit articles, and should instead propose changes on the talk page of the article in question."

The very strongly discouraged language underwent a slow transformation from "discouraged" to "strongly discouraged" to "very strongly discouraged" and then was put in bold. While I'm sure this was meant to increase the discouragement, instead it seems to read "something here is missing, you're allowed to do something but we're not going to say what it is."

My proposed "should not" language is the usual, direct way to get the meaning across. It means "It may not be an absolute prohibition for all cases, but you should not do it."

Very strongly discouraged occurs 3 times in the guideline and this suggested change should be made for all 3 cases. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure this shouldn't be "double extra very strongly discouraged"? And we can underline it and italicize it in addition to bold text.

Seriously, though, I agree. "Should not" is a fundamentally stronger statement, it's simpler, and cleaner. -- Atama頭 17:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Simpler, yes, but whether it is stronger or not is going to depend on the reader's perception of what "should" means. Some readers will see "should not = shall not = must not" and others will see it as "should not = generally discouraged, but allowed in some undefined circumstances." The latter reading is weaker than Very strongly discouraged. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 00:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You have a valid objection here. But what about second issue? Why is "very strongly" is stronger than "strongly"? and why not "extremely strongly discouraged," etc. as someone quipped? If you want to get rid of "some undefined circumstances," then plain forbidden/verboten/prohibido/interdit should work just fine. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:31, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking that both of you are joking a bit, but otherwise I'm not sure I understand. But don't worry. I am not very strongly discouraged. I'll assume you mean "simpler is better." Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

(e/c) @Staszek Lem: WP:Ignore all rules means there will always be at least a few exceptional circumstances in which any rule can and should be ignored, so I don't want to "totally" get rid of the implied "allowed in some undefined circumstances." However, we probably do want to make sure that the implication is that this is a very narrow, don't-try-it-unless-you-know-what-you-are-doing exception. I would prefer "extremely strongly discouraged" over "forbidden" because it's more accurate, but I'd prefer "very strongly discouraged" over "extremely strongly encouraged" because the latter just sounds stilted. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 03:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

@Davidwr: If you want some slack left, please keep in mind that "forbidden" does have slack; just as with "discouraged", something has to be "strictly forbidden". I guess all this is today's progressive devaluation of emphasis (alternatively, progresssive ADD); compare: 20th-century "thank you" -> today's "thank you very much" -> "thank you so much" . Staszek Lem (talk) 03:32, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this will depend a lot on the circles you run in; in my experience, "forbidden" has the dictionary meaning of "not allowed", without any slack, and "strictly forbidden" is a redundant intensifier for emphasis. I agree that "should" has the connotation of a recommendation: it specifies something that ought to be done, or that the subject has an obligation to do, but this doesn't mean the subject will do it. In IETF RFC language, "should" denotes a recommendation. Perhaps making the statement more definitive, with a small exception carved out, would be more suitable, such as: Paid advocates must not edit articles related to their area of advocacy, and should instead propose changes on article talk pages, unless the Misplaced Pages community reaches a consensus agreement to the contrary. isaacl (talk) 08:27, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The word "forbidden" should not be used, because it's incorrect. When something is forbidden, that means we frankly don't allow it. There are few things on Misplaced Pages that are forbidden; violating a ban, copyright, or other editor's privacy are examples of behavior that is forbidden because doing any of those actions generally leads to an uncontroversial revert and possible revdelete/oversight, and a warning or block. Paid editing, on the other hand, is not forbidden, not at this time at least. Changing the language in this way would take a dramatic step that would require a publicized RfC because it would change the entire approach to how COI is done. Isaacl has it correctly; the word "forbidden" does not "have slack". Look it up in the dictionary for crying out loud, it means "not allowed" or "banned". It's much stronger language than what we have now, which is saying that paid editing is not something that we disallow but the community doesn't care for it, and if you do act as a paid editor prepare for some resistance.

Unless I missed something somewhere? Was there some super-secret RfC done sometime between the discussion at Meta about possibly requiring paid contributors to disclose their affiliations and now? When did we suddenly start banning this behavior altogether? -- Atama頭 15:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't panic. I suggested the word "forbidden", but I am not a native language speaker. You proved that this word is not good. OK, relax. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Back to initial observation: "very strongly discouraged" was criticized because it borders with ridiculous. Do we need to throw a tantrum and bang with the fist on the table? I vote to get rid of "very": if "strongly discouraged" is not discouraging enough, then extra "very" will not help, because the most probable violators are either those who did not read the policy or those who chose to ignore it. And I am sure that the latter ones will not even be "super extra strongly discouraged or else". Staszek Lem (talk) 17:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Everybody seems to at least agree that very strongly discouraged is bad form - I'll make the changes I indicated above. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:00, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Very strongly discouraged ... or else?

Are there any sanctions for ignoring this discouragement? If yes, then what are they? If not, then what is the purpose of all this shouting? Neither boldface nor even large font will help against evil ones. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There are no sanctions. If you ignore the prohibitions, you are more likely to get an article that looks like what your client wants it to look like, if you are any good at editing Misplaced Pages. Without empowering our editors and punishing people who ignore the sanctions in the mainspace, this will not be solved, because the cost-benefit of ignoring our meaningless rules is tremendously out of whack. Hipocrite (talk) 18:09, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

In other words, do you agree that instead of super-extra-boldfacing we must think of the ways of enforcement? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yup. Hipocrite (talk) 18:19, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

If the changes to the Terms of Service end up going through, we'll be in a position of having teeth that can be used for enforcement. Without it, the odds of getting community consensus on how to proceed are remarkably small. - Bilby (talk) 04:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I didn't see this discussion before I reverted the change in policy. The change should be discussed community wide.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2014 (UTC))

I think everybody agrees that it is just changing confusing wording to clear wording - little more than a grammatical change. Please read this section and the one above and state your objections - if any. Until then I'll change it back. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

First apologies for making the revert while this was in discussion. I missed it for some reason. Second, strongly discourage and should not are very different in meaning not just a grammar change. Should not is a definitive statement and it means you cannot edit. Strongly discouraged means not a good idea but possible. In my view the slow progression from discouraged, to strongly discouraged, to should not is a subtle but meaningful change in COI which should have wide community input. We are saying in effect now that a declared COI cannot edit. This is not what the guidleline used to say In the past; a declared COI could edit with care. This is a guideline for which we are using definitive language and suggesting sanctions? I'm not convinced its a good idea and would welcome wider community input.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:44, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

As I understand it, both Davidwr and I believe that "should" is a weaker, more advisory statement than "strongly discouraged". Typically, in technical standards, "should" means something is recommended but not necessary. I disagree that this change is solely grammatical; the two phrases have different connotations and associated meanings. Accordingly, I do not believe there is a consensus to alter the wording from "strongly discouraged". isaacl (talk) 00:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see this as a simple grammatical change, either, but a slow tightening of the rules. For me, "should not" is a prohibition, "strongly discouraged" is a recommendation. I'm uncomfortable with a significant change like this without more discussion. - Bilby (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the above. I am for cleaner prose, but changing "discouraged" of any form to "should not" is changing the meaning from a recommendation to a prohibition, which is something that has been discussed before in the past and never found consensus for. Furthermore I feel like we are setting editors up by telling them to request changes on the talk page, because most articles on obscure topics will never yield any replies. I have seen requests to fix a typo on talkpages by an IP address that went unaddressed for years simply because no one visited the page. I believe that if an editor is actually honest enough to try and follow our unenforceable policies then we should assume some good faith and encourage them to try and be neutral and improve their article. In practice I realise this will fail a lot, similar to host most new users fail to edit in a nonbiased manner, but I don't see asking users to make edit requests on the talk page as a realistic option. Perhaps we could recommend that they make their edits and then request on a noticeboard that users look at their page and see if it is neutral?AioftheStorm (talk) 18:04, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Advertisements Prohibited

<post-fix of mist-threading due to my overlooked edit conflict>

BTW, talking about "prohibited": WP:COI has a phrase: "The writing of "puff pieces" and advertisements is prohibited." I am pretty sure this is a rather generic guideline. Is it covered somewhere? WP:NOT-ish? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, at WP:NOT, specifically WP:PROMO which includes "Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind" as the first list item, "Self-promotion" as the fourth list item, and "Advertising, marketing or public relations" as the fifth item. All of those would apply ("Opinion pieces" and "Scandal mongering" seem less relevant in this case). Those are all examples of prohibited/forbidden behavior that can lead to uncontroversial reverts, blocks, and other consequences when done by anyone (whether the individual has a verified COI or not). -- Atama頭 18:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:COI has a phrase: "The writing of "puff pieces" and advertisements is prohibited." I am pretty sure this is a rather generic guideline. Is it covered somewhere? WP:NOT-ish? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, what's wrong with "advertisements"? Earlier I was advised to look up a dictionary, so I did now], and I see nothing evil with adverts. The real problem is biased language. An advert may be pretty neutral and factual. "The Company Co. makes goodies for 150 years. Its goodies are ranked Extra Cute by Bite Me magazine survey and earned 2013 "Golden Armpit Award" . Concluding, I think this phrase must be fixed. Some ideas may be borrowed from WP:PEACOCK. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I answered you with more depth above, but WP:PROMO which is part of WP:NOT does cover this.

Sorry, it was my duplication due to edit conflict. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

As to the nature of advertisements, by definition an advertisement is never neutral. What you listed above as an example isn't really an advertisement, not as Misplaced Pages defines it. Misplaced Pages considers an advertisement to include "puffery" and is written with a subjective and biased style in violation of WP:NPOV. It's fine to include flattering information about an article subject if that information "fairly and proportionately" represents the significant views of published reliable sources. For example, check out our article on Citizen Kane. The lead of the article makes the bold claim that the film is "Considered by many critics, filmmakers, and fans to be the greatest film ever made," but it supports that claim later in the text of the article so that our neutrality policy is satisfied. I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion. -- Atama頭 18:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

re: "I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion". Well, no, it is not. It merely demonstrates that the jargon of[REDACTED] is not always evident to ordinary people. Since you wrote "not as Misplaced Pages defines it", this definition must be near at hand near at a mouse-click. You wrote: "What you listed above as an example isn't really an advertisement <deliberate snip>" . On the contrary, I happenned to contest several prods/speedies of articles written like my example, and classified as "adverts" by wikipedians. So I reiterate my request: this phrase must be clarified in the guideline, not in the talk. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. We try to not duplicate information too much; see here, "When the scope of one advice page overlaps with the scope of another, minimize redundancy." But if a quick definition of advertising (borrowing from WP:NOT) helps clarify matters then I think it's helpful as long as it doesn't get too long.

Articles are going to get marked for deletion inappropriately, it's inevitable. When I do admin dashboard stuff, I usually review a number of G11 speedy deletion requests (it's one of, if not the most common speedy deletion request I see) and I tend to decline most of them, either because the info doesn't seem that promotional or because it's easy to remove the promotion without rewriting the whole article. But I don't know if that's because people don't understand what advertisements are, or if it's because they don't understand the G11 criterion. -- Atama頭 19:17, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The definition of advertising is very simple (from dictionary.com)

ad·ver·tis·ing noun

• 1. the act or practice of calling public attention to one's product, service, need, etc., especially by paid announcements in newspapers and magazines, over radio or television, on billboards, etc.: to get more customers by advertising.
• 2. paid announcements; advertisements.

if you would like this restated in my own words "Any communication from a business meant to increase sales, attract customers, or otherwise increase the value of the business" but that's slightly narrower than the above definition. No matter - "promotion" is a broader term than advertising, and it is prohibited, "marketing" is broader still, and it is also prohibited. "Public relations" is a sub-set of promotion, and it is also prohibited.

So a very basic example of an ad would be - a farmer places the following notice in a newspaper. "Hay for sale, contact Ole McDonald at 555-1212." An example on Misplaced Pages would be when a company employee edits an article on the company and writes "The company sells widgets, doodads, zappers and other products."

So if we could find admins to enforce these rules, we'd be doing just fine. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Multiple accounts

Smallbones cited a provision of this policy with which I was not acquainted, WP:PAY. It is a very good policy but it warrants strengthening, to avoid multiple user accounts advocating for particular articles. I suggest wording saying in sum and substance as follows:

"To avoid undue burden on volunteer time and resources, every article subject should employ only one account."

-- Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 03:04, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Update to reflect new Terms of Use

I've updated the guideline to reflect the new Terms of Use, with this series of edits.

The Terms of Use are automatically policy. Since there were apparent contradictions the ToU automatically over-rides the version in this guideline. I don't think that any of these contradictions were serious, just minor things that became out-of-date with the new ToU. But please check the dif above. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Good job with the update. Just as a procedural point: the statement Terms of Use are automatically policy is a little misleading, because the community has the option of adopting a divergent standard that supersedes the ToU. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 00:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph to clarify that point: "The terms of use express the default position. Individual projects may create their own policies to strengthen or reduce the default requirements (see Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies)." SlimVirgin 00:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I've add a sentence taken from the ToU FAQs Smallbones_(smalltalk) 00:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by how the terms of use relate to the English Misplaced Pages. The terms of use describe the default position, according to the Foundation, but each project can have its own policy, including that no disclosure is necessary (see Commons, for example, which is supporting a no-disclosure position). A lot of projects may not have any COI policies, so the terms of use express the position for those projects.

But we do have this guideline, so is this guideline our default or the terms of use? If the terms of use is the default, we have a contradiction on our hands, namely between (a) direct article editing is very strongly discouraged (this guideline), and (b) all you have to do is disclose on the talk page or in an edit summary (the terms of use). SlimVirgin 16:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

My presumption is that the two merely combine rather than conflict. Actual editing is still very strongly discouraged but now disclosure is mandatory, for a (hopefully) minor edit, or even for just a talk page comment. We may need to 'ratify' that presumption with an RfC. Ocaasi 16:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

An RfC is probably a good idea, but it will be difficult to find precise wording. We need to ask whether the English Misplaced Pages requires disclosure, and if so to what extent and in which circumstances (only when engaged in direct article editing or also when engaged on talk, policies and elsewhere?). And how does this relate to asking about the bright line (if at all)?

In the meantime, I wonder whether our default is the terms of use or this guideline. The terms of use don't say that projects must introduce a new policy, simply that they can have a separate one. Before the terms of use, this guideline said of disclosure:

• "When investigating COI editing, be careful not to reveal the identity of editors against their wishes. Misplaced Pages's policy against harassment takes precedence over this guideline."
• "Paid advocates are also advised to disclose their conflict of interest."
• Then there was an advisory section, "Declaring an interest," which ended with "Do not publicly declare an interest if this could put you at harm in the real world, e.g., from stalkers."

I'm assuming that, prior to the conclusion of any RfC (which will take several weeks, at least, to prepare and be closed), the above is still our default position. SlimVirgin 17:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. We previously had a policy, but we have never reached consensus as a community to "adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy." As such, where our old policy was at odds with the TOU, I would argue the TOU governs until such time as we adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy. Specifically, "Adopting an alternative disclosure policy requires consensus, consistent with the project’s past practice and local understanding of what consensus is." You appear to state, above, that it would take several weeks to reach consensus per past practice - as such, we have no alternative disclosure policy, and the TOU governs where there is disparity. Hipocrite (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• @Smallbones: Please stop making changes to this policy unilaterally. Please propose changes and seek community consensus. Two changes in a row now have received criticism. You need to stop.--v/r - TP 17:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• One of the changes that concerns me is "Paid editors are required to name their employer, client and related affiliations for each paid edit." First, that seems to contradict the "very strongly discouraged" advice about avoiding direct article editing, and leaves the guideline looking less clear than before. Second, it's very intrusive. The previous version said: "Paid advocates are ... advised to disclose their conflict of interest." I don't think it's our business to know who exactly is paying someone. That they declare a COI is arguably enough. SlimVirgin 18:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. A user is required to disclose those things with respect to any "contribution," they are strongly discouraged from actually editing articles (if they were to, in fact, edit articles, they would be required to disclose). We are, in fact, per the TOU, allowed to know exactly who is paying for the edits. If you feel the community disagrees, seek consensus for an alternative disclosure policy. Hipocrite (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

m:Terms of use, "A Wikimedia Project community may adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy. If a Project adopts an alternative disclosure policy, you may comply with that policy instead of the requirements in this section when contributing to that Project." We have a COI policy addressing this issue with community consensus. Smallbones changed it unilaterally without consensus.--v/r - TP 18:26, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

We have not adopted an "alternative disclosure policy." Hipocrite (talk) 18:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we have, it's at WP:COI and it said, prior to Smallbones's no-consensus change, that disclosure was strongly encouraged. "You should provide full disclosure of your connection, when using talkpages, making edit requests, and similar." That is our policy on disclosure which the WMF Terms of Use allow to supercede their own and Smallbones has unilaterally changed without consensus--v/r - TP 18:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

No, we have not. First of all, "An alternative paid contribution policy will only supersede these requirements if it is ... listed in the alternative disclosure policy page." This policy was not listed on the page in question. Of course, since the page in question is free to edit, you could list it there, but there is absolutely no evidence that this guideline was approved as a policy by "the relevant Project community." Hipocrite (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Says who? Three editors a consensus does not make. You, Smallbones, and figureofnine do not make a consensus to demote this policy nor change it.--v/r - TP 18:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

This page was never a "policy," it was always a "guideline." Do you not know the difference between a policy and a guideline? Hipocrite (talk) 18:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

You're conflating English Misplaced Pages definition of policy with the wider world. The definition of a policy is "A policy is a principle or protocol to guide decisions and achieve rational outcomes." This "guideline" is a policy in the literal sense. This is simple, if you want a change, I'm not opposed to change. Simply start a RFC and gain consensus instead of Smallbone's underhanded insertion when he thought no one was looking. If you three are so confident in you're changes, that should be easy.--v/r - TP 19:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hipocrite, this is not a disputed guideline just because one or two people don't like bits of it (most of us don't like bits of most policies). As for the policy/guideline distinction, there's no reason to assume that the Foundation is using the word policy in the distinctive way we use it on the English Misplaced Pages. By policy, they simply mean guidance that has consensus, and the guidance on this page regarding disclosure is the closest thing we have to consensus right now. SlimVirgin 19:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't care about one or two bits - it's disputed because you lot are edit warring over it. There's also no reason to assume the Foundation is not clearly aware of the distinction between policy and guideline, given that we are the highest traffic website they host, and the majority of their movers and shakers come from here and all. Who from the foundation told you that "By policy, they simply mean guidance that has consensus," or is that just your personal opinion of what they think? Hipocrite (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

PS: I note that m:Category:Global_policies makes it clear that meta understand the difference between "Policy" and "Guideline." Hipocrite (talk) 19:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Then hold on RFC about whether an English Misplaced Pages guideline does not meet the threshold of the Foundation's requirement for a 'policy'.--v/r - TP 19:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you believe it needs consensus to be a policy, or consensus to not be a policy? Hipocrite (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe it needs consensus to change.--v/r - TP 19:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Then there's no dispute - since it has been a guideline since forever and a day, you submit an RFC to have it upgraded to policy. Hipocrite (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I have nothing to change, I'm satisfied with the status quo.--v/r - TP 19:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad we all agree that this guideline is not a policy, and thus cannot be a policy that overrules the TOU. Hipocrite (talk) 19:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

You must be mistaken, I see we all agree that the current wording of our long standing standard for disclosure is that it is strongly encouraged. You clearly show no interest in starting the community-wide discussion needed to change that.--v/r - TP 19:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Your community standard has been overruled by the TOU. Disclosure is now required. Hipocrite (talk) 19:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Round and around we go then? You can open an RFC or not, I don't care. Wording isn't going to change until you get a consensus.--v/r - TP 19:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I haven't changed any wording in this inapplicable guideline except to switch "edit" to "contribution." It's you who is furiously reverting. Hipocrite (talk) 19:31, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Furiously? LOL. It was so quiet around Misplaced Pages while you were on your break. Welcome back.--v/r - TP 19:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hipocrite, policy is not what is written on the page. It is what is enforced and respected. Any editor on the English Misplaced Pages trying to enforce "Paid editors are required to name their employer, client and related affiliations for each paid contribution" would run the risk of being blocked under WP:OUTING. So the wording you want to add to this guideline, or want to assume is now policy, is highly problematic and would almost certainly not gain consensus. SlimVirgin 20:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

A paid editor who failed to disclose those things also runs the risk of being blocked under the terms of use, true? Hipocrite (talk) 20:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

But blocked by whom? I'd be surprised if any admin on the English Misplaced Pages would do that. I can see an admin asking an editor to step aside if there's an obvious COI, or blocking a COI editor who had become disruptive, but I can't imagine anyone insisting on full disclosure or else. SlimVirgin 20:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Options

We have several options:

1. do nothing and continue to accept this page as our guideline;
2. hold a quick RfC to ask that the advice on this page about disclosure – "that paid editors are advised to disclose" – continue to be our guideline (or "policy" within the meaning of the terms of use), until further notice;
3. in conjunction with (2) or alone, start a discussion about holding a longer RfC asking whether the English WP is willing to ratify that part of the terms of use, and if not what it proposes instead;
4. gain consensus to add a sentence to WP:OUTING, which is already policy, that "Paid editors are advised, but not required, to disclose their conflict of interest."

Of these options, (4) would be the easiest, because it involves adding one sentence to an already established policy. We could then add that section of the policy to the meta page at Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies, which would satisfy the Foundation's requirement that disclosure policies be listed there. SlimVirgin 20:17, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I oppose 4, as there is no consensus to modify our policy in such a way, and certainly just "add a sentence and call it consensus" is not enough to codify as an APCDP. Hipocrite (talk) 20:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm supportive of 2 or 3. A discussion is needed. The lack of one would only continue to embolden both sides of this debate.--v/r - TP 20:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The ToU update applies to Misplaced Pages until we decide to change it. We should change this page (the COI guideline) for now to reflect the reality of the ToU requirements, and move forward with an RfC to determine if we want an alternative. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 20:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The COI guideline is our local policy regarding the ToU. The rest is just wikilawyering over the local ENWP status of a guideline versus a policy. This wouldn't be in doubt to anyone outside of this project and I certainly couldn't imagine that the WMF had any forethought to ENWP's 'special' treatment of guidelines when they wrote the exemption. Again, I dare anyone who disagrees and seeks change to open an RFC and ask the wider community. I'm not opposed to change, I'm opposed to underhanded sneaking insertion of material into the COI policy.--v/r - TP 20:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

No. The WP:TOU is policy. Obviously the TOU knows the difference between guidelines and policy, since to specifically refers to guidelines and policy in "may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure" and then goes on to say only a policy (after an RfC and which is properly listed) may adopt an alternative disclosure requirement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Let's avoid distinctions between "guidelines" and "policy"; they're wikilawyering. In fact, we don't even need to use those words: we can use "rules" instead. As you said, the ToU rules override the COI rules until English Misplaced Pages adopts a rule specifying the reverse situation. In the meantime, I would like it if the COI rules are consistent with the ToU rules, so that we don't confuse people. Our goal should be to settle this debate over the (temporary) wording of the COI rules, and then to have an RfC on what the rules should be. How can we do that? {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 21:07, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

We can't, I don't think. The terms of use directly contradict the guideline on two key points: (a) the terms of use allow direct article editing with disclosure, where the COI guideline "very strongly discourages" direct article editing regardless of disclosure; and (b) the terms of use require detailed disclosure, where the COI guideline advises only that the existence of the COI be disclosed, and does not require even that. SlimVirgin 21:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The TOU allows guidelines to be more restrictive regarding editing, so your a) is a non issue, at present. Your b) is also a non-issue, at present, if this guideline details no specific form of requirement for disclosure because the WP:TOU does state a form (so they don't conflict). Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Alan, my point was that if we accept the that terms of use override this guideline (for now), then we are accepting direct article editing with disclosure, and that the required disclosure be seriously privacy-violating. We can't pick and choose (now, without an RfC) which bits of the terms of use to allow to override the guideline. It's all or nothing (for now). SlimVirgin 21:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Seriously privacy violating? How so? No one has to disclose anything, just as no one has to be NPOV, as long as they don't edit the article (The TOU does not force anyone to edit an article). Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:38, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

As for your first point paid direct article editing without disclosure is against the TOU, it's also strongly discouraged, by this guideline, for someone with a COI to edit articles directly. There is no conflict there. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:46, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Alan, the terms of use require paid editors to disclose their employers, clients and affiliations for all their paid contributions, not only article edits: "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation."

So it would no longer be enough for someone to say on a talk page "I have a COI here, so I won't edit directly. I just want to make a suggestion." According to the terms of use, they would have to tell us exactly who was paying them. But no one would enforce that on enwiki, so I don't see how it can become policy. SlimVirgin 21:48, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Only if they are being paid (not other COI). Moreover, it is doubtful that such a disclosure (as you describe) would not be deemed "in the spirit" (its the proposal that will disclose much of the rest) unless it gets much more involved than what you said and seriously pushes the envelope of conduct problems. Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Why doesn't someone simply ask the Foundation whether this guideline is the "alternative policy" mentioned in their TOU? I was thinking that it might be, until I saw the "alternative policy" page to which SlimVirgin linked. That says to me that this guideline is not in fact the alternative policy contemplated int he TOU. But if there is any doubt, and there clearly is, just ask the Foundation. Coretheapple (talk) 21:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Some editors here seem confused. The ToU are not negotiable. Reality on enWP is defined by WMF unless we enact policy otherwise (that is explicitly what the ToU says in the relevant section). WP:COI is only a guideline. We have tried several times to enact a COI/paid editing/paid advocacy policy and failed every time. So yes, the ToU overrides this guideline until we make our own COI policy. My suggestion would be to copy the section from the ToU and paste it into the guideline, adding and taking away nothing, but introducing it by saying that "The following is copied from the WMF Terms of Use which govern everything that happens on Misplaced Pages. This text is presented simply for ease of reference". If anyone tries to revert that, refer them to ANI for vandalism. Which I may do, and start doing... Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Question! Is anybody aware of the enWP community, or the WMF, enforcing disclosure or banning someone for violating the "Paid contributions without disclosure" clauses of the ToU? Asking for actual examples, ideally with difs. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Jytdog, I completely endorse this line of thinking. I've been trying to say something similar here already. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 22:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Jytdog as well. However, even though the TOU is policy, it is not reflected (so far as I know) in any existing policy, and it appears to be contradicted by this laughable, flabby piece of non-paper that we call a "guideline." I agree that we should cut and paste from the TOU into this guideline. Coretheapple (talk) 22:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Jytdog, along those lines also. I would note, we don't jump to ban or block for most policy vios. As for your question, that type of banning was done at AN last fall for some editing business and at least one owner, as I recall. It was the confessed non-disclosure that concerned people. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:20, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Does this version faithfully reflect the TOU? If it does, why was it reverted? Was there a consensus for this reversion? Why do we have a COI guideline that is at variance with Foundation strictures? Coretheapple (talk) 22:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I think it does, yes, but of course things can always be said better. As for why it was reverted see Jytdog on confusion, probably, and a seeming non acknowledgement or mistake regarding WP:TOU policy. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, if only one editor did not want that version, then it should go back. Consensus is not unanimity. Coretheapple (talk) 22:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I hope no one will try to restore what was there without first gaining consensus. It's not clear to me at all that the Foundation can tell us what is policy and tell us that something isn't policy unless it's listed on a certain page and developed in a certain way. That's unprecedented, so I think we should take time to look at the other projects and how people are handling things elsewhere before acting here. SlimVirgin 22:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, what's your opinion of it? I've wavered on this myself, because I feel that if there is ambiguity it is the Foundation's fault. But on your point about what the Foundation can and can't do, I think that it has pretty much unlimited power, as the owner/operator of Misplaced Pages. Coretheapple (talk) 22:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

That last point ignores all kinds of realities, including who would enforce this. If it's not enforced, it's not policy, no matter what it's called. That's been the problem with this COI guideline throughout its whole existence. It has basically been ignored and paid editing is now ubiquitous. Policies and guidelines have to be respected or they're worse than useless, because they occupy a space where an enforceable guideline might sit.

As for my opinion of it, I'm on the fence. I'm more concerned about the meta issue of the Foundation doing this, and confused as to why they would do it, and why they didn't consult specifically with enwiki to avoid these contradictions (given that this is mostly aimed at enwiki). SlimVirgin 23:13, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The change was made on the back of the PRWiki scandal and with Coretheapple pressuring WMF and Sue Gardner to do it on her way out.--v/r - TP 23:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

SlimVirgin: The consultation was here. I recall notices about it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I guess what annoys me is that the Foundation is saying, "These are our rules! And they are engraved in stone. (Unless you don't like them.)" However, I think that Jytdog, an editor with whom I do not always agree, has raised a valid point. The TOU are policy. In fact, they are a kind of super-policy, and even though they can be overridden locally, this is a guideline and it is not the policy contemplated by the Foundation. If anybody has any doubt about it, then they should ask the Foundation, as I indicated previously. Coretheapple (talk) 23:01, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to ask the foundation or get community consensus. Until then, do not change ENWP policies and guidelines without a consensus.--v/r - TP 23:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@Coretheapple: no, this guideline is not an alternative disclosure policy contemplated under the Terms of Use. To adopt this as an alternative policy, there would need to be consensus to change the disclosure requirements in the Terms of Use. More detail is available in this FAQ. Thanks, Stephen LaPorte (WMF) (talk) 23:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@Slaporte (WMF):, in what way is this not an alternative? Is it because it is listed as a 'guideline', because it does not have 'consensus', because the consensus was established before the change to the terms of use, or because the consensus didn't explicitly reference the terms of use? I ask because I want to know which part needs to be corrected. Because this is an established English Misplaced Pages rule, it does have community consensus, and it does directly address the issue of disclosure.--v/r - TP 23:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hello TParis, the consensus should refer to the Terms of Use to set an alternative. For example, see this proposal pending on commons. Thanks, |Stephen LaPorte (WMF)]] (talk) 00:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Not contradicting, just asking. So what you're saying is that we need a RFC to reaffirm what we already have and explicitly states it is an alternative to the ToU? Is that all it takes?--v/r - TP 00:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

There appears to be nothing in the WMF's new FAQ, which is informative and not part of their ToU, and much less in their new ToU, saying that a community-derived policy (see below for my comment on the meaning that word) is only valid if created or ratified after the introduction of the new WMF's new ToU; or that the new WMFs ToU over-rides existing community consensus. If I've overlooked such a condition, I'm sure User:Slaporte (WMF) will now quote it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Slim Virgin: What do you mean? WP:TOU is policy. Also, the current proposal is just to put the quoted policy on this page not go back to another version. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry but the objections are childish, like asking "why is the sky blue, I want it to be yellow." There is zero question from a legal perspective, that when Wikimedia Foundation says dance, we dance. They almost never do that, because everyone would leave. But this is not ambiguous. If you don't like the Terms of Use, DON'T USE WIKIPEDIA. You agree to them every time you use this website - that is the deal that you make. Every. Time. If you do not understand this, you are a danger to yourself and the community. Every thing you do on the WWW is through websites, and every website has Terms of Use that define what happens there. If you have issues with the ToU please address them to the WMF. Down here, under them, we do what they say, until the ToU change. This is not the place to fight about them. Jytdog (talk) 23:22, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

True. And those ToU explicitly include a clause allowing this project to over-ride the new rules on disclosure with a local version. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Contradiction

I'm not making myself clear here, so I'll try again. If you add the terms of use to this page as policy, you are allowing direct article editing by paid editors, because the terms of use allow it.

If we want to hold an RfC and adopt some parts, but not others, we can do that if it gains consensus.

But prior to that RfC, if you add the terms of use to this page qua policy, you will be saying that direct article editing is okay, so long as there is disclosure. And that introduces a contradiction – very strongly discouraged on the one hand, and okay on the other. That contradiction will take the guideline even further in the direction of "laughable, flabby piece of non-paper"-dom. SlimVirgin 23:26, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

But direct article editing is permitted by the COI guideline too. It is, however, discouraged. Nothing is prohibited. It can't be, as this is not a policy. Coretheapple (talk) 23:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, right, very strongly discouraged. But it's not discouraged by the terms of use, not in the slightest. The terms of use permit it, so long as there's disclosure. So the terms of use, and now this guideline, support what Chevron's PR person did at Chevron Corporation, for example, when he started to rewrite the article, but made clear who he was. SlimVirgin 23:47, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

What did the editing community do about it? He was not editing in a walled garden. Did they strongly discourage him? As this discouragement is allowed by WP:TOU then and now. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense. In high-visibility situations, COI editing is usually deterred one way or the other, despite the lack of a prohibition. But I've seen it happen many times, without repercussions, in less significant articles. That was true before the TOU and it will happen after. There's really no change except disclosure (if the projects don't overrule it, and this one hasn't). Coretheapple (talk) 23:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

SlimVirgin In the edit I just made, I do not cite the WMF position as Misplaced Pages policy. I described it as Terms of Use for using Misplaced Pages, which is what it is. It is higher than any policy we make (unless we make policy to contradict it). I was careful to not say that it is Misplaced Pages policy because I saw the kinds of objections people were raising, which miss the point. You are right, that all that the ToU do, is require disclosure. Our COI guideline goes further and suggests certain restrictions, but those restrictions do not have the power of policy and cannot actually forbid anything. If we ever enact a policy, we can go further and actually ban paid editing, but you and I both know that we are unlikely to ever get consensus for that. The upshot - where WP stands as of today - is that paid editors MUST disclose, and they are strongly discouraged from directly editing articles, etc. The ToU adds exactly one set of teeth - paid editors MUST disclose, and if they do not, they can be banned. I asked above if enWP has ever done that since the ToU went into effect. I remain curious. Jytdog (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Per Stephen's comment above, which I grudgingly accept only insofar as I believe that there is a technicality he has yet to explain that the ENWP community would be happy to meet if an RFC opened, what you've said isn't exactly agreeable. What it should say is something to the effect of "In 2013, the Wikimedia Foundation enacted terms of use for all projects detailing a requirement for paid editors to disclose their conflict of interest on all WMF projects unless that project explicitly lowers the bar. At this time, the English Misplaced Pages has not made an explicit contradiction with that policy."--v/r - TP 23:46, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I purposefully refrained from describing what it says, and only described what its authority is. The ToU is well-written in plain English and has an FAQ. I know (and you should too) that embellishment or description of what it says or means will be very controversial; there are a wide range of very strong views on paid editing, and any description will step onto somebody's landmine. Jytdog (talk23:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit unclear regarding your question: are you asking if anyone has ever been banned for a violation of the terms of use? Or are you asking if someone has been banned based on the modifications made yesterday? isaacl (talk) 00:17, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much for responding! My question was stupid - I (foolishly) thought that these came into effect ages ago. Thank you for pointing out my dumb question (nobody else did, so really thanks). So let me shift it - do you know if enWP has ever taken action based on violation of ToU alone? It would still be interesting to know if there is a precedent since that is the world we are now living in. thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 00:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

The new ToU states: "Applicable law, or community and Foundation policies and guidelines, such as those addressing conflicts of interest, may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure." This seems to say that there is nothing stopping us from insisting that paid editors or COI editors are not allowed (or strongly discouraged) from directly editing articles. That doesn't contradict the ToU policy, which only relates to a requirement for disclosure. And that specifically allows for guidelines, rather than policies. I'd read the new requirements as saying that we are can, with no major problems, restrict paid editors as we see fit. But that we have to insist that they meet the ToU disclosure requirements when they do, or we need to have a new policy with community consensus that overrides the ToU on disclosure. - Bilby (talk) 23:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Bilby et al, I hear you, but enWP has tried many many times - most recently last winter when we had about 5 competing proposals, to make a policy on paid editing. All of them failed pretty dramatically to get consensus - there is a huge range of very strong views on the issues involved. You can find the failed proposals in links at the bottom of the Conflict of interest editing on Misplaced Pages article (not sure they are still there, but I put them there at one point). Be sure to check out their Talk pages. In any case, until we do (if we ever do) come up with a policy, all we have is the WMF ToU and this guideline. Jytdog (talk) 23:52, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm certainly aware of all the attempts. :) I guess what I'm trying to say is that the ToU takes precedence in regards to disclosure, until we manage to make an alternative disclosure policy. Which would be a challenge for us given our history. However, the ToU doesn't stop us from retaining the existing guideline restricting paid editing, and specifically states that we can do that, because it only relates to disclosure. Thus the current wording of this guideline, stating that paid editing of articles is "very strongly discouraged" is in compliance with the ToU, so long as we also accept that those editing must disclose their affiliation. The new ToU hasn't weakened our stance on paid editing, but it has increased what paid editors are obliged to reveal. There seems to be a belief that the new ToU allows paid editing over our guideline, but my understanding is that it isn't what the ToU is saying, as it leaves that side up to us. - Bilby (talk) 00:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

we seem to be on the same page, which is happy. the COI guideline as it stands right now, reminds readers that disclosure is required under ToU and everything else is exactly as it was. The ToU makes it very clear that projects can make policies or guidelines further restricting paid editing, and that is exactly what ours does. You have to read in a tendentious way to see it otherwise. Jytdog (talk) 00:19, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Bilby is right about what the WP:TOU covers and it does not contradict WP:TOU to also discourage direct editing, as per this guideline. I have also discussed this above but since it now has its own section, I thought it best to reiterate, and I think that is what Bliby is responding to --this section header.Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

hm. the ToU explicitly says "Applicable law, or community and Foundation policies and guidelines, such as those addressing conflicts of interest, may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure." That is exactly what we have with our COI Guideline. We "further limit paid contributions" with our guideline. Where do you a contradiction? Thanks!Jytdog (talk) 00:56, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

No where does it contradict. That's what I said. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

that is what i thought you meant but wanted to be sure. so we have a little island of shared understanding here. happy :) Jytdog (talk) 01:04, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

When multiple people object to the editing of a policy or guideline, the usual practice is to restore the consensus version and talk. There are several options ahead, including holding an RfC. No one should be pushing through their preferred version in the meantime. SlimVirgin 00:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your objection to inserting the TOU into the guideline. It's totally relevant and its applicable to Misplaced Pages (because there is no COI policy, as the WMF rep just reaffirmed). It does not contradict the rest of the guideline. Where's the harm? Coretheapple (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the collegiate approach is to discuss any proposed changes where there is opposition. I also agree, though, that the terms of service do not give a free pass to paid editing, as described in the answer to the corresponding question in the FAQ. A restriction on editing is not an alternate paid contribution disclosure policy (since it does not deal with disclosure) and so listing this guideline on meta:Alternative paid contribution disclosure policies is unnecessary for that purpose. However, should this project wish to specify a different set of information that must be disclosed, then an alternate paid contribution disclosure policy should be added to that page. isaacl (talk) 01:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

The WMF rep did not say we don't have a COI policy, he said we haven't explicitly stated with consensus that this is a direct alternative to the ToU. That is an altogether other matter; one I'm not sure the community was aware was necessary.--v/r - TP 02:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Summary of principles

I've assembled some of the points and arguments that I think are good into a list of principles.

1. The Terms of Use (ToU) is a legal document backed by the authority of the Wikimedia Foundation, with the approval of the Board, based on a generally favourable poll of Wikimedians. It is not a "policy" or "guideline".
2. The ToU update only concerns disclosure of paid editing. It does not concern disclosure for other forms of conflict of interest (COI).
3. Misplaced Pages's conflict of interest guideline is a guideline. It discourages (but does not disallow) paid or otherwise COI editing, and recommends (but does not require) disclosure.
4. The ToU, as a Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) legal document, supersedes local Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines.
5. The ToU update includes an opt-out: if a local Misplaced Pages project decides to implement an alternative disclosure standard policy, and announces it as such, the local standard policy supersedes the default ToU standard rules.
6. The English Misplaced Pages has not formally adopted an alternative disclosure standard policy, so the ToU applies on the English Misplaced Pages.
7. The English Misplaced Pages has a responsibility for its policies, guidelines, and legal terms (rules) to be reasonably consistent, both in description (i.e. the text of the rules) and in practice.
8. There is some conflict tension between rules. For example, COI rules have tension with rules upholding user privacy. This is normal and acceptable, if unfortunate, though it should be avoided when practical.
9. Rules are not perfectly enforced, and may be unenforceable in practice. This is normal and acceptable, if unfortunate, though it should be avoided when practical.
10. The ToU update neither authorizes nor discourages paid editing. It merely sets standards of disclosure that must be met to engage in paid editing if it's not otherwise disallowed.
11. The ToU update does not preclude greater restrictions on COI and/or paid editing.
12. The paid/COI editing rules are controversial, and so we need a reasonable level of consensus to implement or repeal these rules.

Given points 1–6, the ToU applies. Given points 8–11, it is probably reasonable to say that we can tolerate some "contradictions" in the short term. I suggest that we immediately uphold point 7, by mentioning the new ToU rules in the COI guideline. That being done, we should uphold point 12 and pursue a wider RfC to establish a more permanent consensus on the ToU rules. I prioritize 7 over 12 because 12 may require a long time to be resolved.

How's this as an argument? {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 01:32, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Your first point is somewhat misstated. WP:TOU is Misplaced Pages policy. Please click on the link.Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:39, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Fair point. My goal in saying that it was not a policy was to emphasize its difference from community policies. I've struck that portion for now; saying it's a legal document is probably sufficient to make the point. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 01:55, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, WP:TOU is "community policy" - yes it has a different method of adoption, but we are in community with the WMF and even if we were not, it is a Policy of en:Misplaced Pages, which is this community. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:33, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

On points 5 and 6, the only we way can opt-out is to pass a policy - the TOU is clear on that. Based on past experience, I think it is reasonable to say that enWP there is almost no possibility that enWP will be able to achieve consensus on any policy related to paid editing or COI. I think the way it is currently stated, is a bit misleading as to how real the "opt-out" is for enWP. Would you consider replacing "standard" with "policy" in points 5 and 6, and separately consider adding to 6, "And based on past attempts, there is little chance that English Misplaced Pages will be able to reach consensus on an alternative disclosure policy"? Jytdog (talk) 02:16, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Done for the "policy" distinction. I don't think it significantly affects the argument, but I suppose it's worth being precise. I don't want to add the second part because it seems too speculative. It's not an unlikely outcome, but it's not a safe assumption, either. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 02:31, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

On point 8, I don't understand. Nothing in the ToU allows WP:OUTING - and FAQ point 1.3 specifically addresses WP:OUTING and WP:HARASSMENT - this is the same as the warnings at our WP:COIN. I would prefer that Point 8 read: "Some may perceive a tension between the ToU and privacy policies, but there is none. FAQ point 1.3 of the ToU specifically says that the ToU do not override WP:OUTING and WP:HARASSMENT - this is the same as the warnings at our WP:COIN." Would you consider that? And in that light, 9 should be struck. Would you please consider that too? Jytdog (talk) 02:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

On point 8, I don't understand. Nothing in the ToU allows WP:OUTING - and FAQ point 1.3 specifically addresses WP:OUTING and WP:HARASSMENT - this is the same as the warnings at our WP:COIN. I would prefer that Point 8 read: "Some may perceive a tension between the ToU and privacy policies, but there is none. FAQ point 1.3 of the ToU specifically says that the ToU do not override WP:OUTING and WP:HARASSMENT - this is the same as the warnings at our WP:COIN." Would you consider that? And in that light, 9 should be struck. Would you please consider that too? Jytdog (talk) 02:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the idea that there's no tension between outing/harassment is a very weak argument, but you've got a point that they don't actually conflict anywhere. It now uses "tension" over "conflict". I think that 9 is important, because unenforceability is a significant weakness in the ToU update, especially given the lack of conflict with outing/harassment policies. That weakness being acknowledged makes the argument stronger. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 02:48, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much for being responsive! Glad you moved from outright "conflict" to "tension"- I can live with that. I get accused of COI not infrequently by anti-GMO activists and I am very grateful for our very strong privacy policies. As someone who has been in the fire I can tell you that our policies against outing and harassment are effective; there is no real tension. If somebody tries to out you they are in huge trouble. I wish the harassment policy were stronger with regard to chasing someone around pushing COI accusations, but the policy eventually works. So I really don't see a problem, especially since WMF were careful to include FAQ 1.3 and we say the same at COIN... but the description above is OK for me.Jytdog (talk) 02:55, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Point 11 should read "does not preclude greater or lesser restrictions". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually it does restrict lesser restrictions. The ToU applies unless it is repealed in a very specific way. but "policies and guidelines, such as those addressing conflicts of interest, may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure." It strikes me as a kind of ratchet or the old style of car jack. It can be jacked up a bit very easily most of the time, but doesn't go down by little bits. Rather there is an escape mechanism that lowers the ratchet completely and you can start over again from scratch. But that's only a rough metaphor. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not clear what you are quoting, but the WMF's new ToU simply says "A Wikimedia Project community may adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy." - nothing about whether that alternative is more or less restrictive. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:17, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the above are OK. The point about superceding is crucial. However, I'm not sure I'd say "legal" document. That implies something a bit more lawyerly than this TOU. I'd say something more like "formal statement of governance principles" or something like that. Coretheapple (talk) 02:33, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

The meaning of the word policy as used in the new WMF ToU (to paraphrase: "you may have a local policy that is different to the WMF ToU") is not necessarily the same as the rather legalistic meaning of the word "policy" on en.WP, where it means something with more weight than a guideline. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:04, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I very much doubt that as the terms are used carefully and the amendment was drafted with a dialogue from the community. Would you please explain your basis for saying this? Jytdog (talk) 14:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Prove that they have the same meaning. Don't forget to include reference to the local meaning of the word "policy" on each of the other WMF projects. The "community" to which you refer != the en.WP community. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Andy, don't worry about the difference or not. We could argue all day about it and not get anywhere. I've been making a point here about using the word "rules" instead, because all of our policies, guidelines and legal terms ultimately come down to rules that editors have to follow—and simplifying stuff that way short-circuits some of the more legalistic arguments. If English Misplaced Pages comes up with an alternative disclosure standard, chances are we'll call it a "policy" anyway… {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 14:55, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, there is no need for us to be uncertain about any of this, as the WMF legal counsel was kind enough to weigh in here. @Slaporte (WMF):! It would be great if you can clear this up for us. When you say "policy" in the TOU, do you mean "policy" in the Misplaced Pages sense of the word, or could that be construed as including this COI guideline? Coretheapple (talk) 16:09, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

With all due respect to Stephen (Slaporte), it matters not one jot what clarifications he makes here; what matter is what was written in the ruling that was passed by the board; and how that is interpreted by admins, arbcom, or whoever gets to (mis-) apply it. Good lawmakers know this well; the same model applies here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:08, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing Your radical skepticism ~may~ be useful for a litigator but even in those cases the intent of the parties matter and Stephen is excellently placed to make representations about that and would probably be taken as an authoritative description. In typical contexts the plain meaning of the terms in the ToU is plenty clear, and for a reasonable doubter someone in Stephen's role is totally appropriate to explain what was meant. Your stance, on the other hand, is not mainstream and would be unlikely to get much weight in determining community consensus. Jytdog (talk) 13:45, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

"radical skepticism"? You seem to have mis-spelled "realism". I would never claim to carry "much weight" in determining community consensus; not least because such is (contrary to what you appear to believe) often nigh-on impossible to predict. How is Stephen qualified to speak for en.WP administrators, and/ or arbcom? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:07, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

What we know, right now, is WP:TOU is a policy, while WP:COI, which claims it is a guideline, is also not listed as a policy on enWP, nor by the WMF list. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing on WP:TOU that says it is an en.WP policy; it's just a soft-redirect to meta. And we don't know what equivalence, if any, exists between our use of the word "policy", and the WMFs — which is the point I made above. 18:48, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Reminder

It's at the top of this page, but I think that editors need to be reminded of this. The COI guideline says "Any editor who discusses proposed changes to WP:COI or to any conflict of interest policy or guideline, should disclose in that discussion if he or she has been paid to edit on Misplaced Pages." Coretheapple (talk) 22:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm. Does the TOU mean that Foundation employees who edit Misplaced Pages as part of their job (I'm thinking of developers commenting on "improvements") must identify themselves. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:31, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure does. But the passage I quoted concerns conduct on this page specifically. Being part of a "guideline" and not the TOU, it is like the rest of it: toothless. Coretheapple (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

COI by Foundation members

Specific proposed addition to this guideline, whether or not required by the ToU.

Foundation employees, editing Misplaced Pages on behalf of the Foundation, must identify themselves in the manner specified in the ToU for paid editors.

We have had examples of Foundation members (or developers) who have made statements in support of Foundation (or other Foundation members or employees) without identifying themselves as writing for the Foundation. I realize en.Misplaced Pages cannot enforce this, but it seems important to have it as a statement.

Improvement in wording would be appreciated, as well as reasoned !votes. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Arthur, wouldn't this be achieved already by using their staff accounts which generally have (WMF) in their usernames? Isn't that sufficient disclosure? I mean, I get the point you are trying to make, I'm just not sure it's made well.--v/r - TP 02:44, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that this is necessary: it's a fair assumption that WMF employees are acting in good faith. TParis makes an excellent point, too. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 02:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, some developers commenting on (say) WP:FLOW don't always identify themselves. I don't doubt their good faith, nor that they are often acting in (what they consider to be) the interests of the Foundation, but against the interests of en.Misplaced Pages. I have no doubt that some paid editors are acting in good faith, and attempting to ensure that their edits are in keeping with (other) Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:03, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

additional thought on ToU - they add force to our guideline

The ToU say: "Applicable law, or community and Foundation policies and guidelines, such as those addressing conflicts of interest, may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure." This is interesting. The ToU give force to our guideline - a "guideline" is something that indeed "may further limit paid contributions" under the ToU, which is higher than anything else we have here. That is quite an authorization. I imagine that is an interpretation that may be upsetting. But I didn't catch that before at all. Jytdog (talk) 06:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I just deployed that here. Jytdog (talk) 06:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Since this part of the tos specifically refers to this guideline, I agree with Jytdog. The FAQs also say that policies and guidelines must be followed. The upshot is that the tos must be followed and this guideline "may further limit paid contributions or require more detailed disclosure," i.e. the stronger of the two applies.

There's also been a question raised repeatedly on whether the tos implies that paid editing is somehow accepted. The FAQs address this directly. The answer is "no." In detail:

Does this provision mean that paid contributions are always allowed as long as they are disclosed?

"No. Users must also comply with each Wikimedia project’s additional policies and guidelines, as well as any applicable laws. For example, English Misplaced Pages’s policy on neutral point of view requires that editing be done fairly, proportionally and (as far as possible) without bias; these requirements must be followed even if the contributor discloses making paid edits."

I suppose there might be an argument that, because this guideline doesn't specifically prohibit paid editing, but only says that it is very strongly discouraged then it must be allowed, i.e. arguing that 2 negatives make a positive. In point of fact this guideline has never said anything about making paid editing acceptable - quite the opposite. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:15, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Applicable law

@Slaporte (WMF): The Terms of Use amendment and FAQs refer to "applicable law", but the amendment doesn't say what applicable law is, rather referring generally to the FTC, EU law, and California and New York state law and suggesting that other laws may apply as well.

In Section 13 "Disputes and Jurisdiction" of the ToU (which was not amended) it states: "You agree to submit to the personal jurisdiction of, and agree that venue is proper in, the courts located in San Francisco County, California, in any legal action or proceeding relating to us or these Terms of Use."

Does this mean that California state laws and US federal laws have a special status in a legal dispute over paid editing involving the WMF, but that other laws may apply as well? That's probably too big of a question to be put all in one sentence, but perhaps you can address this in parts.

Also at the very bottom of the ToU is a date when they were last revised. It says 2012 right now. Shouldn't it be June 16, 2014?

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Is editing Misplaced Pages from an hourly job “paid”?

If I were to edit an article related or unrelated to my field of employment while at work (i.e. “on the clock,”) then a literal reading of the revised terms of service would suggest that I must disclose my identity. After all, while at work people may be paid by the hour regardless of what they are doing. Furthermore, the new guideline mentions paid editing in the context of “deceptive activities” and “fraud.” Actual paid editing may not necessarily constitute fraud; even if somebody were to pay me to express a point of view, the ultimate end-result may be to make an article better in quality, or even to make it more neutral or remove bias. If that is the case, then such editing might neither be deceptive nor be fraudulent. By contrast, receiving compensation for time spent at work when I actually edit Misplaced Pages instead of doing my job may arguably constitute fraud against my employer and therefore violate the revised terms of service. (In reality my employer cares only that the editing does not interfere with the job being done, but other employers have a blanket policy against personal Internet usage.) 173.79.225.57 (talk) 17:44, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

No. "As part of these obligations, you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." You are not expecting compensation for your contributions. --NeilN 17:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd be very careful about Wikilawyering here. If you are really asking about doing work that your employer is encouraging you to do on time that he is paying you for, I'd say disclose. You don't have to disclose your own name, but you do have to disclose your employer's and any other client and affiliation you have. The WMF has reserved the right the take action in this case if you don't disclose, in which case you might be answering in a real courtroom, under real laws, not on a Wiki discussion board. They wouldn't have to prove anything about fraud - just that you were paid for the edit and that you did not disclose.

That said if you are editing in good faith and not influenced by your employer, I wouldn't expect anything so serious. Please just don't try to cut corners on this. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:19, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

What he seems to be describing is not paid editing but just ordinary COI editing, which this guideline is designed to discourage. Coretheapple (talk) 19:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Fulfilling this guideline

Those who take part in COI editing are supposed to be "strongly discouraged." This discouragement will not come from anyone except editors of good conscience. It is our responsibility to use not just milquetoast words when talking about this practice—words just as easily ignored as said—but to discourage it strongly in the face of resistance. And resistance exists.

Resistance to this discouragement is caused by narcissism. Some COI editors perhaps do not care at all about bettering this encyclopedia, but they offer no real resistance, even if they repeat some talking points. Real, honest resistance instead stems from the narcissistic view that one's abilities as an editor are just that much better. Editors with this view believe that the strong discouragement should only apply to others, not them; that they are not affected by their conflict of interest; that they edit neutrally despite any financial incentive not to do so. By their own self-love, they are the exceptional editors: "COI editing should be strongly discouraged, yes, sure, whatever, but I shall still do it, because I am allowed and I am the exception better than the rule of others."

How do we strongly discourage these editors? We tell them, whenever the issue of their COI editing comes up, why it is that the practice is strongly discouraged: because it hurts this encyclopedia. Their behaviour hurts this encyclopedia. No COI editor has ever displayed a relevant body of work that has been free of shortcomings in terms of neutrality. The existence of such shortcomings can always be reasonably suspected as being caused by a relevant conflict of interest where one exists. Such suspicions destroy trust. And we should tell them too of the consensus of our reliable sources concerning conflict of interest authorship: No one is immune, even when one is not consciously aware of being affected by their conflict of interest (Moore & Loewenstein 2004 ). If these messages and others are pressed consistently, perhaps we can move from inadequate, merest discouragement to the strong discouragement required by this guideline.

And every time someone tries to apologize for or enable COI editing, ask that person: "How is what you're saying consistent with our goal of strongly discouraging for COI editing?" If they cannot adequately answer this, then rightly tell them that they are failing to live up to the consensus on how a Wikipedian should behave as represented by this guideline. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 08:23, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

But there are many editors, including some administrators, who believe in facilitating COI editing, not discouraging it. Some have engaged in paid editing themselves. They hate this guideline and despise editors who want to strengthen it. It's an emotional issue for them, as pocketbook issues frequently are. But keep in mind that the victim of this ethical blind spot is the project as a whole, and the reputation of Misplaced Pages, so ultimately we can't get worked too much into a sweat when the Foundation responds in a half-hearted and equivocal way. As it has. Coretheapple (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

"But there are many editors, including some administrators, who believe in facilitating COI editing, not discouraging it." There are a majority of editors, as demonstrated by the failed attempts to prohibit it altogether, that believe outright bans of COI editing is fruitless and facilitating it offers the best option to ensure a NPOV encyclopedia.--v/r - TP 16:58, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

No the community does not believe in "facilitating" COI editing. That's your position, and it is contrary to the spirit and text of this guideline, which says in plain language: "COI editing is strongly discouraged." It doesn't say "COI editing is OK if disclosed" or "COI editing needs to be facilitated in order that it doesn't go underground" or other rubbish like that. It says is "discouraged." We need to improve this guideline, not undermine it, and facilitating it would be directly contrary to what the community is saying in this guideline. Coretheapple (talk) 17:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

If it is only my opinion, than why have you needed to change this policy to reflect yours? And why have you not sought community consensus with an RFC? The 4 previous RFCs failed. This isn't my opinion, it is the community's.--v/r - TP 17:18, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

It is only your opinion because "facilitating COI editing" is contrary to the plain language of the guideline. It's that simple. What this guideline says has nothing whatsoever to do with what RfCs have concluded or whatever else you are referring to, as I can't make any sense of it. Coretheapple (talk) 17:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

This entire policy is about facilitating COIs. It's about how to contribute as a COI editor in good faith and under what conditions we'll find it agreeable. What this policy isn't about is prohibiting COI editing.--v/r - TP 17:56, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

TParis, my perspective is that COI editing remains an incredible contentious issue on enWP and the community is far from settled on the issue. I don't think its accurate to say "we'll find it agreeable"! There are editors who will be very antagonistic toward COI editors and some who will encourage them. The community cannot agree on any policy on this issue; the best it could do is to issue this guideline, with which the community remains uneasy. The guideline allows the presence of editors with a COI in the community and offers behavioral guidelines for what COI editors should and should not do, with most of the emphasis on restrictions. Because of this unsettledness, COI editors can expect trouble on Talk pages, but if they stay within the guidelines they are very unlikely to meet with any further restrictions or admininistrative actions. Jytdog (talk) 18:08, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Jytdog, I entirely agree. I hope we do not stray from that in our current discussions.--v/r - TP 18:17, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

:) Jytdog (talk) 18:19, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Obligations under new ToU

I presume that we are currently operating under the new Terms of Use until such a time as there is community consensus to establish a local policy. My question is what obligations this places editors aware of paid editing under. In the past, although paid editing was "very strongly discouraged", it wasn't specifically banned. So there was no obligation to reveal paid editors, as the paid editing wasn't in-and-of-itself a problem. If the editing went beyond that, into use of socks, vote stacking, writing masses of non-notable articles, or the use of Misplaced Pages for promotion, we'd act on those grounds and maybe raise the paid editing component. However, now editors who do paid work without disclosure are acting against a policy in the form of the ToU. Are we therefore expected to act on the basis that they are breaking the Terms of Use through their non-disclosure, and reveal their paid editing status accordingly? I should note that this isn't an issue of outing them in terms of any identifying information, so much as outing that they are being paid.

I ask because there has always been a certain stigma in regard to being a paid editor, so some editors tend to try and operate within policy, but underground. (Many others just ignore policy and create multiple throwaway accounts, but they are handled through SPI). Based on the new ToU, those editors are no longer acting within policy, and so they presumably cannot remain underground. - Bilby (talk) 14:10, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

First they should be politely asked to conform, pointing to the TOU. If they refuse and continue and can't be talked down, it escalates in possibly different ways, which will likely in the situation dictate where and when to press it. (eg, WP:COIN) Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:20, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd say that non-disclosed paid editors are committing a banable offense, but should not be considered banned until they are formally banned, e.g. at ANI or by the WMF. I don't think anybody is actually obligated to bring paid editors, or even banned editors to anybody's attention, but it is certainly possible and should be encouraged.

I'll suggest a very gentle series of escalating steps.

• 1st a gentle personal note explaining the ToU and suggesting reasons why somebody might think the editor is being paid
  • If the editor does not disclose and continues problematic editing, then
• 2 explain why the matter should be taken to WP:COIN, just to clear up possible misperceptions
  • if folks at COIN decide there is a problem (without outing, but obviously some investigation is just natural), and the problems continue, then
• 3 post a formal notice on the editor's talk page, explaining that there are perceived problems with paid editing and that the matter may to taken to ANI and possibly lead to a community ban.
  • If ANI refuses to perform their obligations
• 4 bring the matter to WMF legal - who I'm sure can ban by office action or other methods, but would prefer not to over-ride ANI without very good reason. Give the WMF some time on this, but don't let them forget about it.
• 5 that's the end of on-Wiki steps, but it should be clear that Misplaced Pages editors are free to pursue the matter off-Wiki, e.g. by public shaming through the press.

If anybody can suggest other reasonable steps, I'd be happy to include them. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:31, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

WP:OUTING still applies. The terms of use are not a shield against outing. Encouraging COI editors to reveal themselves is one thing, outing them is another. The obligation is on the editor being paid, no such obligation exists for other editors and no immunity exists for other editors. Other options include Arbcom and WMF legal.--v/r - TP 16:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

If that is the case, OUTING needs to be looked at because on the contrary, OUTING should not be a shield against obvious paid ediitng. It has long been used as a cloak for paid editors to hide behind, no matter how visible the off-wiki evidence is. Paid editing is a scourge to the project and this is our best opportunity in a long time to take a proactive stance against it. If a user publicly associates themselves as a paid editor and links to his Misplaced Pages account anywhere on the internet, we absolutely need to confront that on-wiki. Punishing such behaviour as "harrassment" is foolish. ThemFromSpace 17:03, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

If outing were changed in this regard, there would be no point in having an outing policy. The most frequent types of outing is discovering someone's employeer and then emailing their employer. This is an issue way more widespread than COI editing, but I COI editing would easily be an excuse. "I was making sure he didnt have a COI" ect.--v/r - TP 17:13, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

My assumption is, and continues to be, that outing applies like it always has in terms of COIs - if you have to out someone to reveal a COI, then you can't reveal the COI. That said, we don't necessarily need to publicly out someone to say that they are a paid editor. If someone has off-wiki proof that a person is a paid editor, I presume it can go through the same channels this sort of issue has always gone through, via arbcom or a checkuser, without ever being made public. - Bilby (talk) 17:39, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Exactly on point, Bilby. Arbcom and Checkuser, and even the WMF, remain the avenues for private information.--v/r - TP 17:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposed changes to the Conflict of Interest Policy

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

The Wikimedia Foundation has made updates to the m:Terms of Use which conflict with the existing COI guideline requiring either updates or a explicit English Misplaced Pages consensus that the COI guideline fulfills the policy requirement of the Terms of Use to override it's conditions on COI editing. Several issues have been discussed on this page relating to the Terms of Use. The terms of use are in effect for all projects unless a project develops a local consensus otherwise and that consensus may be more restrictive or less restrictive. Commons is currently discussing this very thing.

A Wikimedia Project community may adopt an alternative paid contribution disclosure policy. If a Project adopts an alternative disclosure policy, you may comply with that policy instead of the requirements in this section when contributing to that Project. An alternative paid contribution policy will only supersede these requirements if it is approved by the relevant Project community and listed in the alternative disclosure policy page.

According to WMF Legal, there is nothing wrong with a guideline being considered a 'policy' according to WMF's terms of use, but that a local project consensus needs to explicitly state it's purpose as overriding the m:Terms of Use.--v/r - TP 18:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Disclosure

The terms of use mandate disclosure on any one of three pages: on editors user page, on an article talk page, or in an edit summary. Current English Misplaced Pages policy is to strongly encourage disclosure. We have these options that range from explicit compliance with the WMF to explicit refusal and a range in the middle:

• Option 1 Do nothing. The WMF Terms of use will supersede the English Misplaced Pages WP:COI guideline.
• Option 2 Ratify our own policy mandating disclosure
• Option 3 WP:COI fulfills the requirements of the terms of use
• Option 4 Only provide a link to the m:Terms of Use
• Option 5 Restore the WP:COI policy to the last consensus version at

Discussion

• The WMF has made it very clear that our COI policy does not "fulfill the requirements of the terms of use," as an alternate disclosure policy - see . Hipocrite (talk) 18:26, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
  • And when pressed for clarifiation they said it was because the consensus behind it wasn't specifically as an alternative to their terms of use disclosure policy, see .--v/r - TP 18:47, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
• Support Option 2 - Restate the Terms of Use so as to mandate, rather than encourage, disclosure. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Obligations of other editors

Are other editors, not the paid editors themselves, who are aware that paid editing is taking place under any obligations to disclose that information to the wider community?

• Option 1 No obligation
• Option 2 Encouraged to disclose to Arbcom
• Option 3 Obligated to discourage the editor from paid editing and encourage disclosure
• Option 4 Obligated to disclose the paid editing to Arbcom or other private channels
• Option 5 Obligated to disclose publicly that another editor is paid editing, immunity from WP:OUTING

Discussion

• Support Option 2 - Reporting is desirable but not required. No obligation to be an informer. Option 3, including discouraging the paid editor, is an exercise in futility. Paid editors won't go away voluntarily. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Are we facilitating or prohibiting?

What is the community's goal regarding paid editing. Does WP:COI actively describe the conditions on which paid editing, or paid editing to talk pages, would be acceptable, agreeable, or is our goal to stop all paid editing?

• Option 1 Paid editing should be prohibited
• Option 2 Paid editing should be discouraged, but not prohibited.
• Option 3 Paid editing is agreeable under certain conditions listed in WP:COI which include no editing to articles directly
• Option 4 Paid editing is acceptable.

Discussion

• Support modified Option 1. Paid advocacy editing, or paid commercial editing, should be prohibited. Paid editing by professors and similar experts is acceptable. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Objection

Not neutrally worded. That is not what the WMF has said, and its characterization in this RfC is clearly meant to prejudice this discussion. There is also no agreement that there is a substantive conflict between WP:TOU disclosure policy and WP:COI, and that statement in the RfC is also clearly meant to prejudice this discussion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:34, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Hipocrite (talk) 18:42, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I've linked explicitly where the WMF legal said what they said.--v/r - TP 18:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

And it's miss-characterized in the RfC, so object. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:55, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Where is the link to what WMF Legal said? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

This followed by this are their two comments on the matter.--v/r - TP 18:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)\

I reject the premise that there is a clear contradiction between the ToU and our guideline (one could argue that there may be, but that is different from what the RfC says) and I reject the implication that the ToU requires us to take any action. It is malformed and should be withdrawn. I don't object to an RfC but it needs to be better formed.Jytdog (talk) 18:58, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I've asked your 'side' of this conflict to open an RFC about half a dozen times. None of you did.--v/r - TP 19:02, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

The reason you didn't post this as a draft and ask for comments from people you disagree with, or even attempt to write for the enemy is that when you tried to assign work to other people (and shift the burden of consensus,) the other people didn't fall for it? Check! Hipocrite (talk) 19:08, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Because there is no requirement to. Feel free to propose an RFC to change the requirements of RFCs to require drafts. Or next time when I suggest that one of you open it, do so.--v/r - TP 20:04, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

TP I hear you, but it would have been better to draft it and and ask what folks think instead of jumping straight to posting it. Would you please withdraw the RfC so we can discuss it? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to change specific language you disagree with, Jytdog, I won't object.--v/r - TP 20:04, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

The invitation is lovely but the way I am wired, I am really uncomfortable changing an open RfC. I will create a new section (above this to avoid cluttering the section below) with some thoughts... this is a very tough RfC to set up so it has a chance of producing an actionable consensus. Jytdog (talk) 20:48, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree: There is no such conflict between the new TOU and this guideline. The guideline says that COI editing is strongly discouraged and disclosing a COI is encouraged. The TOU says that COI editing is prohibited without disclosure. Encouraging disclosure for such editing is not contradictory with prohibiting non-disclosure for such editing. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 20:43, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Respecting this guideline

"Any editor who discusses proposed changes to WP:COI or to any conflict of interest policy or guideline, should disclose in that discussion if he or she has been paid to edit on Misplaced Pages." - WP:COI

unless I've missed something, it looks like this part of WP:COI is not being followed. More specifically, an editor who declared elsewhere on Misplaced Pages that he was a paid editor is currently editing here. This point was more subtly brought up on this page just a day or so ago. It's time to declare.

Notice that this does not ban anybody from expressing their opinions or prevent anybody from casting an !vote, or anything like that. Nevertheless, it might have a bearing on how other editors evaluate the paid editor's arguments.

More importantly, if someone does not respect the guideline and makes changes to it, how can they expect other people in the future to respect the guideline?

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:50, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment