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Revision as of 14:54, 26 June 2014

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Gun shows in the United States was copied or moved into Gun show loophole with this edit on 12:09, 25 June 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Untitled

Is the Controversial Issues section neutral? It's confusing for sure.--82.15.46.131 05:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Arguably legally?

the text says that someone could end up selling almost a thousand guns at gun shows, and not have to go through background checks. Notice it says that such a person would be posing as a private seller. If he is posing, how can it be argued that he is doing so legally?! botom line, if you sell guns for a living, and are posing as a private party at a gun show, you are breaking the law. Period. there is no loop hole. Dullfig 20:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

You're right. But I think the idea of a loophole in this case is that it's so easy to get away with. If you say you're a private seller, who's going to say otherwise? Thernlund 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Why not merge this article into Gun show. They're both tagged as stubs. I see no reason for two articles on different aspects of the same topic.

If nobody says otherwise in a few days, I'll assume either folks are in agreement or nobody cares enough. Then I'll go ahead and do it. Thernlund 05:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems alright to me. Go ahead. Dullfig 17:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Opposed Greetings everyone. Please make sure you've read the top of the article ("This article is about a U.S. political concept. For information about U.S. gun shows themselves, see Gun shows in the United States.") and the recent revision history of this page and the one for Gun Shows in the United States to see why the split has been made. I look forward to working with everyone interested in improving the efficacy of this article. Thank you. - Respectfully Darknipples (talk) 21:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

No worries, DN. Check out the dates above. This was a separate article at first, then it was merged into the "Gun show" article, which was later renamed "Gun shows in the United States." Lightbreather (talk) 21:35, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Would it be prudent to delete, edit, or replace them? Darknipples (talk) 22:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

If you mean the comments, they'll get archived some day, but it's unnecessary now. Lightbreather (talk) 23:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Back to being a stand-alone article

New editor Darknipples is going to be working on this article for a while. If you want to help me to help her/him, please do, but let's all remember how to treat a WP:NEWCOMER. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 19:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you LB. There is obviously a lot of work to do now. Focusing on the basic structure of sections in a comprehensive and balanced manner will be key to the first step in making this a quality article. Darknipples (talk) 23:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Controversy

With regard to the event Columbine High School massacre, it seems to be relevant to what made the term "gun show loophole" prolific in modern day American culture. However this reference is also still being used on the Gun Shows in the United States page. Is there any foreseeable issue in using it here? Darknipples (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

No. Lightbreather (talk) 22:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Controversy section to be designated for events cited in relation to GSL - Darknipples (talk) 07:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Legislation

A list of all legislation bills that include the term "Gun Show Loophole"? Perhaps FOPA should have it's own section? Darknipples (talk) 23:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you let the events of the last couple of days rattle you. Just do what seems logical to you, referring to examples of other articles that seem good to you (especially if they've been recognized as good pages). Nothing you do is permanent, so if you mess up, it can be reversed. If you're still unsure, just show a little outline here of what you have in mind. Lightbreather (talk) 23:33, 25 June 2014

You are right about that. I'm very surprised that there was a consensus on the separation today. I need to get my head straight and hunker down. Darknipples (talk) 23:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

There wasn't clear consensus, but neither was there consensus to keep it where it was. I thought we presented the better arguments for moving, that's all. And I think that if it went into some dispute resolution process, whomever was involved in deciding it would agree - IMO. Lightbreather (talk) 00:03, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Changes and Deletions

Anastrophe - I see you have deleted most of my recent changes to the article. I realize that I am new, so, I am assuming you prefer I discuss my changes, additions, and deletions here first, before I add them to the article? Would you be willing to do the same? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 02:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

You published commentary, bare links, etc - and signed them - in article space. Additions to the article proper are never signed, nor are bare links published. I'd recommend making a copy of the article, and save it to your sandbox, then test your edits there first. You're free to edit all you like, however, obviously inappropriate content is likely to be reverted or fixed by others (inappropriate not in a political sense, inappropriate to article space). The halmark of wikipedia is that whatever changes you make, you must be prepared to have them edited, changed, deleted, at any time, and without 'mercy'. It's a collaborative medium, and every editor has equal power. I think if you review the versions before my changes and compare with them after, you'll see what was wrong. Anastrophe (talk) 02:52, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

To simplify the process, open this: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gun_show_loophole&oldid=614450851

then open this in a separate tab, and switch between them: https://en.wikipedia.org/Gun_show_loophole

Anastrophe (talk) 02:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Anastrophe, thank you so much for your guidance. Your recent advice only confirms my instincts, and means very much to me. I truly believe that the separation of "GS" and "GSL" is going to simplify things for everyone. How are things going on the "GS" page? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 03:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Events citing Gun Show Loophole

This talk section is being replaced by the controversy talk section. Any objections to it being deleted? - Darknipples (talk)

Darknipples (talk) 03:25, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/survey-gun-laws-and-gun-violence/

http://www.ldnews.com/ci_22229028/gun-owning-society-cant-also-be-free-society

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/essays/sandy_hook/the_promise.pdf Darknipples (talk) 03:25, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

And generally speaking, content like this section does not belong on the article talk page. The talk page is for discussion of the article, not for storing links to material you may have some future plan to use.

Use your sandbox for this, please. Anastrophe (talk) 03:31, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Understood. - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 03:36, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

FOPA Section

FOPA weakens FFL dealer's legal restrictions at Gun Shows, but which parts of the language in it are considered "ambiguous" and why? Darknipples (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

In what way did FOPA weaken FFL restrictions? Fopa mandated that they perform background checks at gun shows. Anastrophe (talk) 04:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

FFL's were no longer restricted to selling at their place of business, or, under the guise of an FFL dealer, in that they could sell from their personal collection as a private (correction: "seller"). (edit: without performing a BG check) Darknipples (talk) 04:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

FFL's could not and cannot sell inventory without complying with all federal/ATF restrictions, which includes mandated background checks. They cannot pose as private sellers if they are an FFL, and they cannot sell from their 'personal collection' as a private dealer; if they fail to disclose that they're an FFL, they're violating the law. A different wording would be that "FOPA expanded FFL dealer's legal right to include sales at Gun Shows". The regulations are very clear on this, there's no actual weakening of any restriction. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/firearms/ATF_I_5300%2023A.pdf Anastrophe (talk) 05:09, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

(http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/pdf/2009/pr442-09_report.pdf) Considering the original statutes under the GCA, and as they are relative to this article, the term "weaken" is more appropriate. The original question asked at the beginning of this section is "which parts of the language in it (FOPA) are considered "ambiguous" and why?" Do you have some relevant information or citations that help to answer this question? - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 06:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Since the "gun show loophole" has nothing to do with FFL's, nor even particularly with FOPA, I'm not sure what any of this discussion actually has to do with this article. 06:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I do think a section designated specifically for criticisms of GSL should be created to ensure the article has balance of POV. - Respectfully - Darknipples (talk) 06:45, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

DN, I'm a little confused by your question. Does this go back to one of the earlier discussions you had with Cullen about how or why the term "gun show loophole" was created? If so, don't worry about that. You might be struggling with what a lot of new WP editors go through. Very few of us have backgrounds in encyclopedia writing. You don't need or want to pose a question and formulate an answer. A lot of new writers don't know about these two policies: WP:OR (original research) and WP:SYNTH (synthesis). Read about those, and once you understand them editing here actually becomes a lot easier. What you want to do is research use of the term "gun show loophole" and what sources say about the topic, and then choose the highest quality and most relevant to put in the article. The hardest part then becomes presenting it in an WP:NPOV (neutral point of view). Once people get past the OR and SYNTH problems, I think the next biggest problem is WP:SOURCE QUALITY and achieving neutrality, so review those, too, please.

So, for now, don't worry about why it's called a loophole - that's just what it's called. Just find out what sources say about the loophole and - following the policies and guidelines I just gave - draft an article. May the force be with you. ;-) Lightbreather (talk) 14:54, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Image Suggestions

Darknipples (talk) 05:01, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

GCA of 1968

This section is designated for discussion of GCA statutes weakened by FOPA in relation to GSL. Darknipples (talk) 06:30, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Criticism

This section is designated for discussion of GSL criticisms. (Not for the GSL Article) - Darknipples (talk) 07:06, 26 June 2014 (UTC)