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Revision as of 22:16, 12 July 2014 edit122.59.232.157 (talk) →Charming: new section← Previous edit Revision as of 14:18, 13 July 2014 edit undoSMcCandlish (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, File movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors201,742 edits →Any chance of a negotiated close?: I'll entertain any reasonable draft, but it has several criteria to match before it would be acceptable, and that after I'm already compromising on several points.Next edit →
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:]: ] <u>initiated</u> a discussion about capitalization of species names, so "undiscussed page moves" is incorrect. The discussion is archived at ] (]). Please see also ] (version of ). :]: ] <u>initiated</u> a discussion about capitalization of species names, so "undiscussed page moves" is incorrect. The discussion is archived at ] (]). Please see also ] (version of ).
:—] (]) 23:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC) :—] (]) 23:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

::{{Ping|EdJohnston|Wavelength|John|Jenks24}}: Indeed. The current plain wording of ] would actually completely decapitalize all breed name except where they contain proper names ("German", etc.), and I've actually done more than anyone else (see archives at WT:MOS, WT:AT, etc.) to dissuade any moves to decapitalize them, because some of the arguments for capitalization of breed names differ from those relating to species names, and few people at MOS/AT understand this. Even most breed editors don't. But back on topic: Not only am I not really engaging in undiscussed moves, in the broad sense, the demonstrable facts are that:
::#WP:BOLD is policy, WP:BRD is not, and says explicitly that it cannot trump BOLD and that editors cannot be forced to engage in BRD. "That edit was undiscussed" is {{em|not}} actually a policy basis for anything, much less vindictive sanctions.
::#My actions have in fact lead to a widespread BRD round anyway, which is what I and anyone would expect should one or more of the moves accidentally turn out to raise controversy for some reason. I'm a big fan of BRD being used normally and as it was actually intended. Moves are just edits; they are not something magical.
::#The moves were made in an entirely good-faith attempt to bring a {{em|radically}} chaotic mess in and between animal breed categories into the beginnings of conformity with WP:AT and WP:MOS (and only in the most basic and obvious ways - I intentionally avoided various "arguable" moves, and only did those that should have been uncontroversial by the plain wording of WP:AT. I was not bucking some established consensus, I was using WP:BOLD (that B in BRD) to take the first steps toward standardization and cleanup. Every wikiproject that deals with breeds was doing completely different things, and not even doing them consistently with "their" "own" articles, much less communicating with each other. Now they'll start, finally.
::#It is generally assumed (see WP:BOLD, WP:CONSENSUS, etc.) that no discussion and consensus-building is needed to enforce extant policies and guidelines because they already represent consensus arrived at by precisely such discussions (wikiproject demurrers notwithstanding, per policy at WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:OWN).
::#And, {{em|the entire matter is moot anyway}}, since that was the last of the breed categories I've been cleaning up &ndash; any further moves after those were {{em|already}} ones that would have to go to WP:RM because they're more complicated cases than "do not unnecessarily disambiguate", "use natural disambiguation over parenthetical" and "do not improperly capitalize"; all the remaining cases raise issues that have to be addressed on the case by case basis.
::#Me being curmudgeonly is not a policy matter. Civility does not mean being "nice" and "agreeable". Ever since returning from my fairly long hiatus, I've been studiously avoiding making any personal attacks or assumptions of bad faith (though almost every single day I'm subjected to both sorts of invective from others; I could have had at least two dozen editors administratively warned and/or restrained under the MOS/AT discretionary sanctions at WP:AE, but I've never taken a single punitive step of this sort. I may be grumpy, but I'm not a WP:DICK.
::There is, ergo, no basis on which to try to remove or restrain my page-moving abilities. I'm not alone in seeing this as abuse of admin noticeboards to bully another MOS/AT regular, a disturbing and increasing pattern (due to the number of anti-MOS admins, and their concentration in these noticeboards). Thank you for the heads-up that I'm really being considered for excessive sanctioning simply because I'm standing up for myself vocally, and some people want to shut me up. At least we're clear about {{em|that}}, and that would be valuable should I have to appeal any bogus sanctions.<p>{{ping|Jenks24}}: I'll be happy to agree to something, as long as it:</p>
::*is highly specific to this topic area;
::*follows the actual facts as laid out here, not the complainant's exaggerations and misconstruals, nor his most vocal supporter's wildly novel re/mis-interpretations of WP:AT;
::*assumes good faith;
::*makes no allegation other than being mistaken with regard to likelihood of some moves being noncontroversial;
::*involves no blocks, topic bans, formal warnings, or other imposed restrictions or sanctions.
::*cautions the complainant and any others to abide by the MOS/AT discretionary sanctions warnings, and stop "personalizing style and naming disputes", including the casting of vague conspiratorial aspersions, and assumptions or accusations of bad faith, against me or other editors discussing such matters.
::Any vague and over-broad demands on me like my agreeing to never move a page without RM will not be acceptable (it would amount to the same thing as removal of filemover ability), nor will anything attacking my character or motivations, nor anything clearly punitive or wikipolitical. I also decline to agree that the moves were disruptive in and of themselves, by their nature, nor of course that they were by intent or incompetence; they simply incidentally happened to raise concerns that were not anticipated, because my interpretation of the relevant policy and guideline, while well defended, did not turn out to be the only allegedly plausible interpretation. <p>Those concerns that were raised {{em|are}} noted by me, and while I disagree with their reasoning, I accept that reasonable people can disagree rationally, and I thus recognize that further page moves with regard to breed articles are likely to not be considered non-controversial and thus should naturally go through RM. I'll also drop my insistence that the complainant be BOOMERANG admonished or sanctioned, although this was clearly a stellar example of how {{em|not}} to do ANI (or any other noticeboard), due to its vexatiousness, the narrowly averted intent to canvass, and other problems raised by it. Finally, my goal here is not sport argument much less WP:WINNING at it. Rather, it is WP having consistent, policy/guideline-compliant article names in this topic space, that all editors and readers can understand. I anticipate having to work with these other editors in arriving at this standardization, and consider this dispute very temporary as well as unfortunate, but in a week I would hope that it's essentially forgotten and collaboration is back in full swing. I'm already conceding about 5 things I would rather not, so I expect notable compromise, calmness and reason from the other side of the dispute, too. The personal attacks against me and other MOS/AT regulars have to stop, or we may as well just to straight to RFARB and skip all this stuff. Anyway, I'll be happy to entertain any reasonable draft. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 14:18, 13 July 2014 (UTC)</p>


== Informal note == == Informal note ==

Revision as of 14:18, 13 July 2014

Most recent poster here: SMcCandlish (talk).

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Old stuff to resolve eventually

Cueless billiards

Unresolved – Can't get at the stuff at Ancestry; try using addl. cards.
Extended content

Categories are not my thing but do you think there are enough articles now or will be ever to make this necessary? Other than Finger billiards and possibly Carrom, what else is there?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Crud fits for sure. And if the variant in it is sourceable, I'm sure some military editor will fork it into a separate article eventually. I think at least some variants of bar billiards are played with hands and some bagatelle split-offs probably were, too (Shamos goes into loads of them, but I get them all mixed up, mostly because they have foreign names). And there's bocce billiards, article I've not written yet. Very fun game. Kept my sister and I busy for 3 hours once. Her husband (Air Force doctor) actually plays crud on a regular basis; maybe there's a connection She beat me several times, so it must be from crud-playing. Hand pool might be its own article eventually. Anyway, I guess it depends upon your "categorization politics". Mine are pretty liberal - I like to put stuff into a logical category as long as there are multiple items for it (there'll be two as soon as you're done with f.b., since we have crud), and especially if there are multiple parent categories (that will be the case here), and especially especially if the split parallels the category structure of another related category branch (I can't think of a parallel here, so this criterion of mine is not a check mark in this case), and so on. A bunch of factors really. I kind of wallow in that stuff. Not sure why I dig the category space so much. Less psychodrama, I guess. >;-) In my entire time here, I can only think of maybe one categorization decision I've made that got nuked at CfD. And I'm a pretty aggressive categorizer, too; I totally overhauled Category:Pinball just for the heck of it and will probably do the same to Category:Darts soon.
PS: I'm not wedded to the "cueless billiards" name idea; it just seemed more concise than "cueless developments from cue sports" or whatever.— SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 11:44, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
I have no "categorization politics". It's not an area that I think about a lot or has ever interested me so it's good there are people like you. If there is to be a category on this, "cueless billiards" seems fine to me. By the way, just posted Yank Adams as an adjunct to the finger billiards article I started.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Cool; I'd never even heard of him. This one looks like a good DYK; just the fact that there was Finger Billiards World Championship contention is funky enough, probably. You still citing that old version of Shamos? You really oughta get the 1999 version; it can be had from Amazon for cheap and has a bunch of updates. I actually put my old version in the recycle bin as not worth saving. Heh. PS: You seen Stein & Rubino 3rd ed.? I got one for the xmas before the one that just passed, from what was then a really good girlfriend. >;-) It's a-verra, verra nahce. Over 100 new pages, I think (mostly illustrations). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 13:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
If I happen to come across it in a used book store I might pick it up. There's nothing wrong with citing the older edition (as I've said to you before). I had not heard of Adams before yesterday either. Yank is apparently not his real name, though I'm not sure what it is yet. Not sure there will be enough on him to make a DYK (though don't count it out). Of course, since I didn't userspace it, I have 4½ days to see. Unfortunately, I don't have access to ancestry.com and have never found any free database nearly as useful for finding newspaper articles (and census, birth certificates, and reams of primary source material). I tried to sign up for a free trial again which worked once before, but they got smart and are logging those who signed up previously. I just looked; the new Stein and Rubino is about $280. I'll work from the 2nd edition:-)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:16, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Hmm... I haven't tried Ancestry in a while. They're probably logging IP addresses. That would definitely affect me, since mine doesn't change except once every few years. I guess that's what libraries and stuff are for. S&R: Should be available cheaper. Mine came with the Blue Book of Pool Cues too for under $200 total. Here it is for $160, plus I think the shipping was $25. Stein gives his e-mail address as that page. If you ask him he might give you the 2-book deal too, or direct you to where ever that is. Shamos: Not saying its an unreliable source (although the newer version actually corrected some entries), it's just cool because it has more stuff in it. :-) DYK: Hey, you could speedily delete your own article, sandbox it and come back. Heh. Seriously, I'll see if I can get into Ancestry again and look for stuff on him. I want to look for William Hoskins stuff anyway so I can finish that half of the Spinks/Hoskins story, which has sat in draft form for over a year. I get sidetracked... — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 14:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
It's not IPs they're logging, it's your credit card. You have to give them one in order to get the trial so that they can automatically charge you if you miss the cancellation deadline. Regarding the Blue Book, of all these books, that's the one that get's stale, that is, if you use it for actual quotes, which I do all the time, both for answer to questions and for selling, buying, etc. Yeah I start procrastinating too. I did all that work on Mingaud and now I can't get myself to go back. I also did reams of research on Hurricane Tony Ellin (thugh I found so little; I really felt bad when he died; I met him a few times, seemed like a really great guy), Masako Katsura and others but still haven't moved on them.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 18:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Ah, the credit card. I'll have to see if the PayPal plugin has been updated to work with the new Firefox. If so, that's our solution - it generates a new valid card number every time you use it (they always feed from your single PayPal account). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 18:37, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
PayPal Plugin ist kaput. Some banks now issue credit card accounts that make use of virtual card numbers, but mine's not one of them. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 19:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for trying. It was worth a shot. I signed up for a newspaperarchive.com three month trial. As far as newspaper results go it seems quite good so far, and the search interface is many orders of magnitude better than ancestry's, but it has none of the genealogical records that ancestry provides. With ancestry I could probably find census info on Yank as well as death information (as well as for Masako Katsura, which I've been working on it for a few days; she could actually be alive, though she'd be 96).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Sad...

How well forgotten some very well known people are. The more I read about Yank Adams, the more I realize he was world famous. Yet, he's almost completely unknown today and barely mentioned even in modern billiard texts.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Reading stuff from that era, it's also amazing how important billiards (in the three-ball sense) was back then, with sometimes multiple-page stories in newspapers about each turn in a long match, and so on. It's like snooker is today in the UK. PS: I saw that you found evidence of a billiards stage comedy there. I'd never heard of it! — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 15:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Jackpot. Portrait, diagrams, sample shot descriptions and more (that will also lend itself to the finger billiards article).--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Nice find! — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 06:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


Look at the main page

Unresolved – Katsura News added (with new TFA section) to WP:CUE; need to see if I can add anything useful to Mingaud article.
Extended content

Look at the main page --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Since you don't appear to have seen this near to the time I left it, it might be a little cryptic without explanation. Masako Katsura was today's featured article on January 31, 2011.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 20:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Supah-dupah! That kicks. WP:CUE's (and your?) first TFA, yes?! And yeah I have been away a lot lately. Long story. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 01:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, my first, though I have another in the works (not billiards related). I think François Mingaud could be a candidate in the near future. I really wanted to work it up to near FA level before posting it but another user created it recently, not realizing my draft existed, and once they did realize, copied some of my content without proper copyright attribution and posted to DYK. I have done a history merge though the newer, far less developed content is what's seen in the article now. I'm going to merge the old with the new soon. Glad to see your back.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
My front and sides are visible too. ;-) Anyway, glad you beat me to Mingaud. I'd been thinking of doing that one myself, but it seemed a bit daunting. I may have some tidbits for it. Lemme know when your merged version goes up, and I'll see what I have that might not already be in there. Probably not earthshaking, just a few things I found in 1800s-1910s books. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 16:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Some more notes on Crystalate

Unresolved – New sources/material worked into article, but unanswered questions remain.
Extended content

Some more notes: they bought Royal Worcester in 1983 and sold it the next year, keeping some of the electronics part.; info about making records:; the chair in 1989 was Lord Jenkin of Roding:; "In 1880, crystalate balls made of nitrocellulose, camphor, and alcohol began to appear. In 1926, they were made obligatory by the Billiards Association and Control Council, the London-based governing body." Amazing Facts: The Indispensable Collection of True Life Facts and Feats. Richard B. Manchester - 1991; a website about crystalate and other materials used for billiard balls:. Fences&Windows 23:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll have to have a look at this stuff in more detail. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 15:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I've worked most of it in. Fences&Windows 16:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Cool! From what I can tell, entirely different parties held the trademark in different markets. I can't find a link between Crystalate Mfg. Co. Ltd. (mostly records, though billiard balls early on) and the main billiard ball mfr. in the UK, who later came up with "Super Crystalate". I'm not sure the term was even used in the U.S. at all, despite the formulation having been originally patented there. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 21:04, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:SAL

Unresolved – Not done yet, last I looked.
Extended content

No one has actually objected to the idea that it's really pointless for WP:SAL to contain any style information at all, other than in summary form and citing MOS:LIST, which is where all of WP:SAL's style advice should go, and SAL page should move back to WP:Stand-alone lists with a content guideline tag. Everyone who's commented for 7 months or so has been in favor of it. I'd say we have consensus to start doing it. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 13:13, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the page shortly. Thanks for the nudge. SilkTork 23:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


Your free 1-year HighBeam Research account is ready

Unresolved – Needs to be renewed, if I come back.
Extended content

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Unresolved – Needs to be renewed, if I come back.
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Thanks for helping make Misplaced Pages better. Enjoy your research! Cheers, Ocaasi 17:22, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Yay! — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 10:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Circa

Unresolved – Need to file the RfC.
Extended content

This edit explains how to write "ca.", which is still discouraged at ], WP:YEAR, WP:SMOS#Abbreviations, and maybe MOS:DOB, and after you must have read my complaint and ordeal at WT:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Circa. Either allow "ca." or don't allow "ca.", I don't care which, but do it consistently. Art LaPella (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good WP:RFC. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 17:52, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
It's been hard to get opinions on circa in the past. Anyway, can I undo that edit, until when and if someone wants to edit the other guidelines to match? If we leave it there indefinitely, nobody will notice except me. Art LaPella (talk) 20:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
I don't care; this will have to be dealt with in an RfC anyway. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 20:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Done (now I don't need to wonder if the RfC will ever be acted on :) ) Art LaPella (talk) 21:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

You post at Misplaced Pages talk:FAQ/Copyright

Unresolved – Need to fix William A. Spinks, etc., with proper balkline stats, now that we know how to interpret them.
Extended content

That page looks like a hinterland (you go back two users in the history and you're in August). Are you familiar with WP:MCQ? By the way, did you see my response on the balkline averages?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I did a bunch of archiving yesterday. This page was HUGE. It'll get there again. I'd forgotten MCQ existed. Can you please add it to the DAB hatnote at top of and "See also" at bottom of WP:COPYRIGHT? Its conspicuous absence is precisely why I ened up at Misplaced Pages talk:FAQ/Copyright! Haven't seen your balkline response yet; will go look. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 21:34, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Hee Haw

Unresolved – Still need to propose some standards on animal breed article naming and disambiguation.
Extended content

Yeah, we did get along on Donkeys. And probably will get along on some other stuff again later. Best way to handle WP is to take it issue by issue and then let bygones be bygones. I'm finding some interesting debates over things like the line between a subspecies, a landrace and a breed. Just almost saw someone else's GA derailed over a "breed versus species" debate that was completely bogus, we just removed the word "adapt" and life would have been fine. I'd actually be interested in seeing actual scholarly articles that discuss these differences, particularly the landrace/breed issue in general, but in livestock in particular, and particularly as applied to truly feral/landrace populations (if, in livestock, there is such a thing, people inevitably will do a bit of culling, sorting and other interference these days). I'm willing to stick to my guns on the WPEQ naming issue, but AGF in all respects. Truce? Montanabw 22:40, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Truce, certainly. I'm not here to pick fights, just improve the consistency for readers and editors. I don't think there will be any scholarly articles on differences between landrace and breed, because there's nothing really to write about. Landrace has clear definitions in zoology and botany, and breed not only doesn't qualify, it is only established as true in any given case by reliable sources. Basically, no one anywhere is claiming "This is the Foobabaz horse, and it is a new landrace!" That wouldn't make sense. What is happening is people naming and declaring new alleged breeds on an entirely self-interested, profit-motive basis, with no evidence anyone other than the proponent and a few other experimental breeders consider it a breed. WP is full of should-be-AfD'd articles of this sort, like the cat one I successfully prod'ed last week. Asking for a reliable source that something is a landrace rather than a breed is backwards; landrace status is the default, not a special condition. It's a bit like asking for a scholarly piece on whether pig Latin is a real language or not; no one's going to write a journal paper about that because "language" (and related terms like "dialect", "language family", "creole" in the linguistic sense, etc.) have clear definitions in linguistics, while pig Latin, an entirely artificial, arbitrary, intentionally-managed form of communication (like an entirely artificial, arbitrary, intentionally managed form of domesticated animal) does not qualify. :-) The "what is a breed" question, which is also not about horses any more than cats or cavies or ferrets, is going to be a separate issue to resolve from the naming issue. Looking over what we collaboratively did with donkeys – and the naming form that took, i.e. Poitou donkey not Poitou (donkey), I think I'm going to end up on your side of that one. It needs to be discussed more broadly in an RFC, because most projects use the parenthetical form, because this is what WT:AT is most readily interpretable as requiring. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 00:12, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I hate the drama of an RfC, particularly when we can just look at how much can be naturally disambiguated, but if you think it's an actual issue, I guess ping me when it goes up. As for landcraces, it may be true ("clear definitions") but you would be doing God's (or someone's) own good work if you were to improve landrace which has few references, fewer good ones, and is generally not a lot of help to those of us trying to sort out WTF a "landrace" is... (smiles). As for breed, that is were we disagree: At what point do we really have a "breed" as opposed to a "landrace?" Fixed traits, human-selected? At what degree, at which point? How many generations? I don't even know if there IS such a thing as a universal definition of what a "breed" is: seriously: or breed or . I think you and I agree that the Palomino horse can never be a "breed" because it is impossible for the color to breed true (per an earlier discussion) so we have one limit. But while I happen agree to a significant extent with your underlying premise that when Randy from Boise breeds two animals and says he has created a new breed and this is a problem, (I think it's a BIG problem in the worst cases) but if we want to get really fussy, I suppose that the aficionados of the Arabian horse who claim the breed is pure from the dawn of time are actually arguing it is a landrace, wouldn't you say? And what DO we do with the multi-generational stuff that's in limbo land? Montanabw 00:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not really certain what the answers are to any of those questions, another reason (besides your "STOP!" demands :-) that I backed away rapidly from moving any more horse articles around. But it's something that is going to have to be looked into. I agree that the Landrace article here is poor. For one thing, it needs to split Natural breed out into its own article (a natural breed is a selectively-bred formal breed the purpose of which is to refine and "lock-in" the most definitive qualities of a local landrace). This in turn isn't actually the same thing as a traditional breed, though the concepts are related. Basically, three breeding concepts are squished into one article. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 00:52, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Side comment: I tend to support one good overview article over three poor content forks, just thinking aloud... Montanabw 23:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
Sure; the point is that the concepts have to be separately, clearly treated, because they are not synonymous at all. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 02:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Given that the article isn't well-sourced yet, I think that you might want to add something about that to landrace now, just to give whomever does article improvement on it later (maybe you, I think this is up your alley!) has the "ping" to do so. Montanabw 21:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Aye, it's on my to-do list. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 22:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Although I have been an evolutionary biologist for decades, I only noticed the term "landrace" within the past year or two (in reference to corn), because I work with wildland plants. But I immediately knew what it was, from context. I'm much less certain about breeds, beyond that I am emphatic that they are human constructs. Montanabw and I have discussed my horse off-wiki, and from what I can tell, breeders are selecting for specific attributes (many people claim to have seen a horse "just like him"), but afaik there is no breed "Idaho stock horse". Artificially-selected lineages can exist without anyone calling them "breeds"; I'm not sure they would even be "natural breeds", and such things are common even within established breeds (Montanabw could probably explain to us the difference between Polish and Egyptian Arabians).
The good thing about breeds wrt Misplaced Pages is that we can use WP:RS and WP:NOTABLE to decide what to cover. Landraces are a different issue: if no one has ever called a specific, distinctive, isolated mustang herd a landrace, is it OR for Misplaced Pages to do so?--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I have been reluctant to use landrace much out of a concern that the concept is a bit OR, as I hadn't heard of it before wikipedia either (but I'm more a historian than an evolutionary biologist, so what do I know?): Curtis, any idea where this did come from? It's a useful concept, but I am kind of wondering where the lines are between selective breeding and a "natural" breed -- of anything. And speaking of isolated Mustang herds, we have things like Kiger Mustang, which is kind of interesting. I think that at least some of SMc's passion comes from the nuttiness seen in a lot of the dog and cat breeders these days, am I right? I mean, Chiweenies? Montanabw 23:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
The first use of the word that I saw referred to different landraces of corn growing in different elevations and exposures in indigenous Maya areas of modern Mexico. I haven't tracked down the references for the use of the word, but the concept seems extremely useful. My sense is that landraces form as much through natural selective processes of cultivation or captivity as through human selection, so that if the "garbage wolf" hypothesis for dog domestication is true, garbage wolves would have been a landrace (or more likely several, in different areas). One could even push the definition and say that MRSA is a landrace. But I don't have enough knowledge of the reliable sources to know how all this would fit into Misplaced Pages.--Curtis Clark (talk) 01:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Landraces form, primarily and quickly, through mostly natural selection, long after domestication. E.g. the St Johns water dog and Maine Coon cat are both North American landraces that postdate European arrival on the continent. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 20:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
I see some potential for some great research on this and a real improvement to the articles in question. Montanabw 21:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Yep. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 20:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

One of the reasons gardens are walled

Unresolved – 'We really need an "intro to Misplaced Pages for academic and professional experts" guide.... Still do! Good potential project!
Extended content
Looking at Montanabw's reaction, I think sometimes you fail to look through the eyes of the editors in a narrow field, and end up with enemies instead of friends. I actually left off editing horse articles years ago because of the controversies, and the hammering out of consensus in that project has been decidedly non-trivial. It's important to remember that a local optimum is always optimal, locally, and that getting to a global optimum can involve considerable work, work that many editors thought they had already done. To me, the best way to start out is always "Here are some more general issues I perceive; I see that you do things differently. How can I help you deal with your problems in a way that will meet my goals?" In the case of the bird folks, this probably wouldn't have worked, but I think It's always a good place to start.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:13, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I agree in the abstract, but I've never been good at that sort of politics. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 10:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
PS: This may sound like a "my logic is bigger than your logic" nit-pick, but I consider it a serious issue: A major and worsening problem on WP, especially as the generalist editorship continues to decline in numbers and activity levels, is that wikiprojects are becoming increasingly balkanized into stand-offish blocs. Despite several ARBCOM decisions against projects bucking consensus and making up their own conflicting rules, and despite a comparatively recent but clear policy against it, at WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, they continue to do it anyway, with increased feelings of righteousness. Per WP:OWN, no topic or field on WP is a walled garden, but some projects do not appear to believe this. I don't know what the solution is, but I have serious misgivings about what WP is going to be like 5 years from now in this regard if something doesn't change. One idea I've had, inspired a bit by the undoing of WP:Esperanza and a CfD several years ago that move all the wikiproject "members" categories to read "participants", is to propose that we abandon the term "wikiproject" entirely, and use something more verbal, that doesn't sound like a club, or worse yet a militia, one can join. Maybe "wikiwork" or something like that: WikiWork Botany, WikiWork Cats, etc. PS: My Granny's garden wasn't walled, but sprawled all the way to the mailbox at the sidewalk. :-) — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 11:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Some are more interested in methods, others in results.
Certainly, WP:OWN is a problem; otherwise it wouldn't have a shortcut. Randy in Boise is also a problem, and editors' reactions to that often appear from the outside to be WP:OWN. And over time they can turn into WP:OWN, when an editor starts to believe that's the only way to counter the Randys.
One approach is to wade in with policies, guidelines, and sanctions, whip up support from editors who have an abstract interest, and make life so miserable for the Randys and the "owners" that they leave Misplaced Pages. In my experience, the most knowledgeable editors are the first to leave (I almost wrote "best editors", but one solution to expert retention is to not care, and only retain compliant editors).
It seems that a lot of the pushback you are going to get at WP:EQUINE is over WP:COMMONNAME issues. You only meant to sweep the floor, but you knocked over a chess game. The word that immediately comes to mind is "inefficient".
My most memorable walled garden was the atrium in the house of Maurice K. Temerlin in Norman, Oklahoma, filled with lush greenery. My first thought was that it provided a safe place for Lucy, but as far as I could tell, they only let her into it under supervision.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
You're right that my cleanup efforts have not been efficient when it comes to horses. (They have been in other areas, including donkeys, with direct cooperation from Montanabw, curiously enough, and in domestic cats, among others.) It is difficult to predict what projects will find article naming and categorization cleanup controversial, and on what points.

I understand the WP:RANDY problem, but I'm not part of it; WP:Manual of Style/organisms could not have been written by a Randy. One problem to me is that too many alleged experts treat everyone who disagrees with them about anything as a Randy, often very insultingly so. And by no means is every editor who claims expertise actually an expert; many, especially in biology projects, are simply fanciers, and others may have studied zoology or botany as an undergraduate, but that's it. I have a degree in cultural anthropology, but would never call myself an expert in that field. Large numbers of, e.g., WP:BIRDS editors don't even have that level of qualification, but will fight to the death to get their way on capitalization (and on a faulty basis – they continually claim that the fact that bird field guides capitalize common names means that the mainstream publishing world is honoring the IOU's convention, when in reality all field guides on everything have always capitalized this way, as ease-of-rapid-scanning emphasis, since at least the 1800s, long before IOU even existed; it's a coincidence, and they know this but pretend this fact was never raised.

Another related issue is that WP:Competence is required – not just competence in a particular field, but online community competence to work collaboratively toward consensus. Not all academics have this, and many are extremely competitive and debatory. Sometimes the only thing to do is not care if this sort leave the project (or even be happy that they've gone). The vast majority of expert editors are a boon to the project, but being such an expert is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" card in Wiki-opoly. As one example, several years ago, one alleged (and probable) expert on albinism was extremely disruptive at the page that is now Albinism in humans. He considered himself to be a reliable source, and basically refused to do the leg-work to provide source citations for the material he wanted to add, nor to show that material he wanted to remove was obsolete or otherwise wrong. I bent over backwards to try to get him to understand WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR, but he just would not listen. Myself and others kept having to prevent him from making the well-source if imperfect article a mostly unsourced mess, and he eventually left the project is "disgust" at other editors' "stupidity", much to a lot of people's relief. The article today is very well sourced and stable (aside from frequent "ALBINOESES LOOK STOOPID" vandalism). The disruptive expert's absence was a boon. I feel the same way about WP:DIVA expert editors who threaten wiki-retirement, WP boycotts, editing strikes, mass editorial walkouts and other WP:POINTy nonsense. We all know that in reality academics have zero problem adapting to in-house style guides of whatever venue they're writing for. Pretending that doing it on WP is onerous is a abuse of WP as massively-multiplayer online debate game.

We really need an "intro to Misplaced Pages for academic and professional experts" guide, to help prevent incoming specialists from falling into such pitfall patterns (not to mention the one identified at WP:SSF). — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 20:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to let you know that I did read this, started an unproductive reply, and then decided I needed to think about it a while.--Curtis Clark (talk) 02:40, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
@Curtis Clark: It's a been a while, but I thought I'd get back to you about this. If I resume editing, I may in fact try to draft an "intro to Misplaced Pages for academic and professional experts" guide. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 20:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Actually, Misplaced Pages:Ten Simple Rules for Editing Misplaced Pages might be good enough. Didn't know that existed. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 21:59, 21 March 2014 (UTC)



Kinda old stuff to sort through (mostly barnstars I didn't move to my /Barnstars page yet)

Chapeau

... for this one! Cheers - DVdm (talk) 20:20, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I actually like hats. :-) Your readability tweak was a good idea. I was a little concerned about it myself, but I'm not a cards editor, so I wasn't sure if there was a typical way of making hands more legible. (Also not sure if people conventionally use the card symbols that are available in Unicode, etc.). I do edit a lot of games articles, but almost exclusively in cue sports and related. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 12:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I specially like hats when there's a set of dice under them :-)
Perhaps you don't know, but overhere we use the name chapeau for the cup and, by extension, for the game itself. As you can see here—als je Nederlands een beetje in orde is—, we play an entirely different game with it, a game where one can practice the fine art of subtle bluffing, downright lying, assessing oponents' behaviour, and accurately estimating probabilities. We also play the "Mexican" variant, which is even subtler. Check it out and cheers! - DVdm (talk) 18:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I didn't know that, about the chapeau. I thought you were awarding me a virtual hat. :-) . I am familiar with the bluff game (possibly the Mexican version, since I learned it in California), but have always played that one with regular dice. Anyway, if you like what I did in the English version, certainly feel free to "port" it to the Netherlands Misplaced Pages. I may be able to work through the Dutch enough to add something about the other variants to the English article here, since it is rather paltry. Heh. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 04:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, it was meant as a virtual hat award as well - I had seen a hat on your user page :-)

Porting from there to here could be a bit problematic, as there's not many sources around, alas. - DVdm (talk) 17:40, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to dig through my game encyclopedias and stuff. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 17:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Ok, if you find something, please let know. I'd be glad to work on it together. Cheers and happy digging. - DVdm (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar comment

You have new message/s Hello. You have a new message at Djathinkimacowboy's talk page.

Don't delete this! -

The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
For behaving in a genteel fashion, as if nothing were the matter, and for gallantry. --Djathinkimacowboy 03:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Sankyu beddy mush! Hardly necessary for me just behaving properly. Heh. But I appreciate it anyway. I left you a note at your page about that Guidance rename idea. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(ل)ˀ Contribs. 04:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Shou ist werie velcum. I think the 'Guidance' name and the way you simplified it into a short statement is very good! And people should give out more barnstars. They are very merited and it isn't as if they cost us anything.--Djathinkimacowboy 10:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Cheers!

A beer on me!
for all of the thoughtful posts through the extended discussion at MOSCAPS. I've appreciated it. JHunterJ (talk) 13:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank ya verra much! I was thirsty. >;-) — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 15:10, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar

The Barnstar Creator's Barnstar
Thank you for your submission of the Instructor's Barnstar. It's now on the main barnstar list. Pine 15:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Keen beans! Thanks.

A barnstar for you!

The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
This comes as a recognition of your kindness in developing the Firefox Cite4wiki add-on. It has been helpful and a great resource. I was also happy to learn you contribute to Mozilla which I do as well :) ₫ӓ₩₳ Talk to Me. Email Me. 18:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, though some others deserve more credit than I do, especially Jehochman (talk · contribs) for the original concept, and Unit 5 (talk · contribs) for the bulk of the code still used in this version. I mostly just added the ability to customize the output for specific sites, and fixed some consistency issues, as well as set up the WP:Cite4Wiki page for it. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 21:01, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you

The Socratic Barnstar
In recognition of your general fine work around the 'pedia, and the staunchness and standard of argumentation on style issues. And if for nothing else, I think you deserve it for this comment  Ohconfucius  02:07, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
<bow> — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 07:59, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Special Barnstar
It's a bit delayed, but for your rather accurate edit summary here. Keep up the good work on various breed articles! TKK 18:06, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Why, thank ya verra much!  :-) — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 20:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Heroic Barnstar

The Original Barnstar
For your recent work at WP:MOS: A model of unflagging effort, precise analysis, institutionally broad and historically deep vision, clear articulation, and civil expression under great pressure. Unforgettable. DocKino (talk) 06:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I do my best. At this point I'm being attacked on multiple pages in a concerted effort of harassment, and suspect that their goal is to get me to simply quit the project. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 18:17, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Some Wiki-love for you

The Purple Barnstar
You've been putting up with a lot of crap from other quarters; just want to let you know that people out there do, in fact, manage to appreciate your work. illegitimi non carborundum! VanIsaacWS Vex 04:55, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. That means a lot right now, actually. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ɖכþ Contrib. 11:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
I couldn't quite find a suitable barnstar for this, but I found it insightful when you brought up the issue of accessibility within TfD#Template:Tn. Maybe it was kind of a small realization you had, but on behalf of the disabled friends I have, thank you for bringing it up. A step in the right direction for making this everyone's encyclopedia. Meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 02:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. As someone with really poor eyesight, {{tn}} has actually meant something to me from an accessbility point of view (honestly, I don't even like that its functionality has been pared to do this {{!}} instead of {{!}} this to begin with, but one thing at a time, I guess.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  03:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

A cheeseburger for you!

Except of course that would be 30 min on the treadmill. But we can still look. Thank you for well measured comments. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:59, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
<nom nom nom> Thanks. I'm actually headed to the gym in 15 minutes, coincidentally. Heh.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  03:53, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
So was I when I sent it, hence the thought... In ictu oculi (talk) 05:30, 11 May 2014 (UTC)



Current threads

Updating of Misplaced Pages guidelines and essays

Unresolved – Not sure as of June what needs to be one on this.

I saw the discussion and thank you for your help through Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#A simple way forward on common names of species. Would you also like to update (check consistency with the consensus) the guidelines and essays related to the discussion (Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#Bird article names: related Misplaced Pages guidelines and essays pages)? Thanks in advance! Selai Poisvre (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC).

Working on it. I've already taken the first step of removing the "local consensus" stuff that suggests capitalization of birds, but don't know if I'll get resistance on this. Just because one RfC is closed doesn't mean everyone in favor of the capitalization will accept the result. This isn't the first such RfC. Assuming acceptance comes this time, we'd need to get the taxobox changed to support the parameters I added (they're just in a sandboxed version), and then add mention of how to use them to the relevant guidelines (maybe; that part might not be needed, and might even be objected to, since not everyone agrees all articles should have infoboxes).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  20:07, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Tlg module

Unresolved – The affected templates are still using the old code.

I've recreated (some of) {{tlg}} in Lua w/ a shorthand here -- it works 86% percent of the time! Anyway, this way should be easier to maintain, and we'll still have a shorter syntax if the tl-whatever tpls get deleted. If you like the idea, then maybe we can pitch it at tlg's talk page or wherever. If not, then oh well. — lfdder 00:32, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

@Lfdder: Cool beans!  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  07:08, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
@Lfdder:: The temples were kept, marginally, but I agree that the Lua route you were working on is ultimately a better way.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  09:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Redundant sentence?

Unresolved – Work to integrate NCFLORA and NCFAUNA stuff into MOS:ORGANISMS]] not completed yet.

The sentence at MOS:LIFE "General names for groups or types of organisms are not capitalized except where they contain a proper name (oak, Bryde's whales, rove beetle, Van cat)" is a bit odd, since the capitalization would (now) be exactly the same if they were the names of individual species. Can it simply be removed?

There is an issue, covered at Misplaced Pages:PLANTS#The use of botanical names as common names for plants, which may or may not be worth putting in the main MOS, namely cases where the same word is used as the scientific genus name and as the English name, when it should be de-capitalized. I think this is rare for animals, but more common for plants and fungi (although I have seen "tyrannosauruses" and similar uses of dinosaur names). Peter coxhead (talk) 09:17, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

  1. I would leave it a alone for now; let people get used to the changes. I think it's reasonable to include the "general names" thing, because it's a catch-all that includes several different kinds of examples, that various largely different groups of people are apt to capitalize. Various know-nothings want to capitalize things like "the Cats", the "Great Apes", etc., because they think "it's a Bigger Group and I like to Capitalize Big Important Stuff". There are millions more people who just like to capitalize nouns and stuff. "Orange's, $1 a Pound". Next we have people who insist on capitalizing general "types" and landraces of domestic animals ("Mountain Dogs", "Van Cat") because they're used to formal breed names being capitalized (whether to do that with breeds here is an open question, but it should not be done with types/classes of domestics, nor with landraces. Maybe the examples can be sculpted better: "the roses", "herpesviruses", "great apes", "Bryde's whale", "mountain dogs", "Van cat", "passerine birds". I'm not sure that "rove beetle" and "oak" are good examples of anything. Anyway, it's more that the species no-capitalization is a special case of the more general rule, not that the general rule is a redundant or vague version of the former. If they're merged, it should keep the general examples, and maybe specifically spell out and illustrate that it also means species and subspecies, landraces and domestic "types", as well as larger and more general groupings.
  2. I had noticed that point and was going to add it, along with some other points from both NCFLORA and NCFAUNA, soon to MOS:ORGANISMS, which I feel is nearing "go live" completion. Does that issue come up often enough to make it a MOS mainpage point? I wouldn't really object to it, and it could be had by adding an "(even if it coincides with a capitalized Genus name)" parenthetical to the "general names" bit. The pattern is just common enough in animals to have been problematic if it were liable to be problematic, as it were. I.e., I don't see a history of squabbling about it at Lynx or its talk page, and remember looking into this earlier with some other mammal, about two weeks ago, and not seeing evidence of confusion or editwarring. The WP:BIRDS people were actually studiously avoiding that problem; I remember seeing a talk page discussion at the project that agreed that such usage shouldn't be capitalized ever. PS: With Lynx, I had to go back to 2006, in the thick of the "Mad Capitalization Epidemic" to find capitalization there, and it wasn't even consistent, just in the lead.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  11:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
  1. Well, certainly "rove beetle" and "oak" are poor examples here, so I would support changing to some of the others you suggested above.
  2. I think the main problem we found with plants was it being unclear as to whether inexperienced editors meant the scientific name or the English name. So you would see a sentence with e.g. "Canna" in the middle and not know whether this should be corrected to "Canna" or to "canna". The plural is clear; "cannas" is always lower-case non-italicized. The singular is potentially ambiguous. Whether it's worth putting this point in the main MOS I just don't know since I don't much edit animal articles and never breed articles, which is why I asked you. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
  1. Will take a look at that later, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.
  2. Beats me. Doesn't seem too frequent an issue, but lot of MOS stuff isn't. Definitely should be in MOS:ORGANISMS, regardless.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  00:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Worked on both of those a bit at MOS. We'll see if it sticks.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  01:18, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

code vs. tt

Unresolved – Did not yet do the code work I said I would: I have it open in some window somewhere...

I could say that insisting on the use of <code> rather than <tt> is an example of an un-necessary, if not fallacious, specialist style. :-) I ought to be guilty of it, since I used to teach HTML! I confess that I use "tt" because it saves typing... Peter coxhead (talk) 09:31, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Heehaw! I'm a stickler for HTML semantic purity whenever possible (which reminds me I need to fork {{bq}} into a div-based block indenter for non-quotations). I try not to make edits like that unless I'm making other ones at the same time and throw them in as an afterthought, on the same basis that just futzing with things like ] -> ] is considered objectionable by some.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  09:56, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Diacritics: Moving forward

Unresolved – No diacritics RfC drafted yet.

I too have no very clear idea about how to word an RfC, other than that it should be in relation to specific proposed changes to the MOS and not something vaguer. I also think it's very important to keep to the issue of diacritical marks in the original orthography of the language, and not stray into either additional letters (like eth or thorn) or the use of diacritical marks in transcription/transliteration (like retaining accents when going from πότε to póte or marking long vowels by macrons in transliterating a number of languages, including Greek and Japanese). These are separate issues.

The problems, for me, are primarily in the first paragraph of WP:DIACRITICS, which is evasive, muddled and inconsistent:

  • The use of modified letters (such as accents or other diacritics) in article titles is neither encouraged nor discouraged – this is just evasion. Their use or non-use should be motivated, and hence should be encouraged or discouraged according to the strength of the motivation.
  • when deciding between versions of a word which differ in the use or non-use of modified letters, follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including other encyclopedias and reference works) – this encouragement to count "hits" just results in muddled policy, apart from the problem of the weasel word "general". However, this bit seems clear that the "modifications" are to the same word, i.e. can be treated as stylistic modifications.
  • The policy on using common names and on foreign names does not prohibit the use of modified letters, if they are used in the common name as verified by reliable sources. This seems to me not to be consistent with the sentence before: is "the common name" here supposed to be with or without the added diacritical marks? "ersions of a word" above should mean that "the common name" is the same with or without the diacritical marks.

Is it possible to re-write this paragraph to achieve consensus? I don't know. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:31, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: Agreed those are separate issues

Agreed the first quoted passage is evasive, but motivating use or avoidance of diacritics seems to be the sticking point. Did you have some particular direction in mind? My take has been that if reliable sources show that their use is normal for the names in question that they should be used here, except where particular subjects eschew them. E.g. for a baseball player named Eddie Sandoval we'd give him as Eddie Sándoval if some reliable sources did (it can't be based on a majority of English language sources, since majority of them ignore diacritics entirely, as a matter of editorial/publishing convenience). It's the same principle that we can cite a single source for Eddie's birth date and place even if most sources don't mention them. A fact does not have to be provided by every single source to be considered reliable. And it's not a matter of sources conflicting (analogous to giving two different birth dates); some giving only Sandoval without the diacritics is like some sources giving a birth year but not a full birth date; it is incomplete information, not conflicting information. On the other hand, if Eddie himself is quoted saying he doesn't use the diacritic that should be a trumping factor (unless WP totally ditches subject preference in all areas, which seems unlikely given the number of discussions going on to make more allowances for subject preference all over the place). This can apply to geography, too (Santa Fe, New Mexico is "Santa Fe" not "Santa Fé" despite the popularity of the diacritic in certain circles; the official name of both the city and the county are "Santa Fe" with no accent. People frequently cite WP:OFFICIALNAME as if it were a policy, but it's actually just an essay, it may not accurately reflect the nuances in cases like this, and people often cite it without actually understanding what it says to begin with (it's frequently misinterpreted as being against use of official names, when it's really only against using them when they're directly unhelpful to readers, while otherwise we would almost certainly use the official name)

I'm not sure "general" in the second passage is actually a weasel word, rather than just lack of clarity. It's not clear if it means the predominant use in reliable sources generally, the predominant use in general-audience sources, or both. The inclusion of "and reference works" strongly suggests the former. Regardless, the "hit-counting" aspect is a problem because of the aforementioned facts that a) English-language sources tend to ignore diacritics for their own convenience (and sometimes for socio-political reasons - you'll find that right-wing sources in English virtually never use them), and b) it only takes one reliable source to establish a fact, for WP purposes.

Yes, the third passage means that the name for WP:COMMONNAME purposes is the same and that the diacritics are just a style matter. But I'm not sure we care what this passage says since it's just an interpretation of "the policy on using common names and on foreign names". An interpretation of policy doesn't trump actual policy and can be rewritten to more clearly reflect it.

The location of this material at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English)#Modified letters (WP:DIACRITICS) seems a bit problematic, and it should mostly be merged (in whatever form) into MOS:DIACRITICS: Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Spelling and romanization.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  23:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

To take the last point first, absolutely; this (now) has nothing to do with titles per se.
My gut feeling is that the policy should be that personal or place names originally in a language that uses the Latin alphabet extended by diacritics should be written in their original orthography by default, unless there is evidence that the name has been assimilated into English. Sources are then relevant for two purposes: to determine whether the name is assimilated (including sources showing the preference of people for their own names), and if it is not assimilated, to determine how the word is written in its original orthography. Placing the onus on editors to show that a name has been assimilated seems to me likely to work better than being neutral and asking what sources do. What do you think? Peter coxhead (talk) 08:57, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Makes sense to me. Even moving the stuff from the NC guideline to the MOS proper shouldn't be hard, since they're both guideline-level. It'd be nice if both the WP and MOS shortcuts went to the same text.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  22:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@Dohn joe: You've been silent on this for a while. What's your take?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  23:24, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Cite4Wiki development

Unresolved – Still need to deal with this Cite4Wiki stuff.

During the time you were not editing Misplaced Pages I sent you a request to be added to the list of developers at Mozilla for Cite4Wiki. That request did not pan out because I had changed my user name there between when I made the request and when you were able to work on it. I replied to the email you sent me, providing my changed Mozilla user name. However, I did not hear anything more from you on the subject. It is quite possible that my email did not reach you.

I would again like to request to be added as a developer so I can release a new version of Cite4Wiki that is compatible with the current version of Firefox, includes automatic and semi-automatic archiving, etc. I also desire to put up an alpha/beta version with page scraping for more parameter values (authors, identifiers, etc.).

My user name on Mozilla is the same as my user name here: Makyen

Thanks. — Makyen (talk) 12:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

After making this request I realized that the position I was coming from was still that you were not participating in Misplaced Pages, or that you would stop doing so. In that situation, there was a need for an active developer able to post updates to Cite4Wiki to Mozilla. Given that you are back there is not a need for me to have this access. Convenient, yes, but not a need. It would also be possible for me to put a package somewhere where you could download it, review, make changes, and then upload to Mozilla if your choose. — Makyen (talk) 20:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I do need to give everyone access who needs it; I don't have any further development interest in that little project, but it's a needed tool. Keep pinging me about it, if I don't get around to it in short order. (I have a lot on my plate right now, so I've been dawdling on it.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  23:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
It has been several months since my original request and closing on two months since my request here. It is clear that this is not a high priority for you. That's fine. Given that, it looks like the most appropriate thing for me to do is create a new extension name, something like "Cite4Wiki Phoenix". I will proceed with doing so. — Makyen (talk) 11:56, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Copyright violation on article https://en.wikipedia.org/Philippine_Native_chicken

Resolved – Declined; I'm not a copyright-patrolling admin (or any kind of admin).

please reply on Talk:Philippine Native chicken page

thank you. Fowl vet (talk) 00:23, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

@Fowl vet: The admins who deal with copyright stuff will need to look into that matter; it's not up to me. PS: Please put talk page posts at the bottom of talk pages. You inserted yours kind of in the middle of my talk page and if I had not decided to go through and archive all the old, resolved stuff, I would not have noticed your message for weeks or months (as it was, I didn't see it for about 3 days).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  09:54, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:User toolbox

Moved to Template talk:User toolbox

Since you changed it to a collapsible template. Do you know where to add the username to the template (to show which user it is)? -Porchcorpter 10:31, 11 June 2014

Thank you for including the username. -Porchcorpter 05:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Kamehameha I

Resolved – Done.

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Please comment on Talk:Mexico

Resolved – Declined. Too complicated for me to get into at my level of editing involvement right now, which is very low.

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Please comment on Talk:Pahlavi dynasty

Resolved – Done.

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BracketBot notice, June 2014

Resolved – Fixed.

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BracketBot notice, June 2014 (2)

Resolved – Rewrote section (moot)

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Resolved – Fixed

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Please comment on Category talk:Antisemitism

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Changes to the Football squad template documentation

Moved to Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Icons § WT:FOOTY canvassing/editwarring against MOS:ICONS compliance
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I have again removed some of your changes to the documentation in which you are trying to impose your POV on the matter. Per WP:BRD, please gain consensus for your changes to the documentation rather than make unilateral changes. Thanks, Number 57 11:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, please do not insert your own views onto the documentation. There was a long and tedious discussion on the MOS talk page, with no outcome. Some people believe the template violates the MOS, others are happy that it is within the rules. You do not get to decide the outcome, and using documentation to insinuate that there is a definitive conclusion to the debate is dishonest. Number 57 12:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
And as an aside, there is a consensus that current season transfers should not be in club articles. The sections may remain in one or two, but that's only because they haven't been spotted or removed. Please discuss at WT:FOOTY if you do not believe this to be the case. Thanks, Number 57 12:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC).
@Number 57: You need to read WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy, and and WP:CONSENSUS generally. Wikiprojects do not get to ignore site-wide guidelines just because they don't like something in them, and a discussion on a guildeline's talk page about whether to change something in the guideline does not magically invalidate the guideline in the interim. Our templates and their documentation still have to comply with our guidelines, whether you wnat to change the guidelines or not. FYI, the transfer material was copied directly from an footy article; I don't what "consensus" against transfer-related information you speak of, but it's clearly not a "consensus" that even other footy editors believe in. If you don't like that particular example, that find some other thing to use as an exmaple of the |notes= a.k.a. |other= feature of the template. Don't make a pretend issue out of something that's not actually an issue.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  12:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
LOCALCONSENSUS is not an issue, because the discussion we're talking about was on the MOS talk page, not at WP:FOOTY. Your argument is that the template is not compliant, but many editors (including myself) believe it is within the rules, so it's not a clear cut issue that the template violates the existing rules. The whole discussion was around clarifying the wording to stop these disputes, but no consensus could be reached on that either. There is not a clear wrong or right answer here. Number 57 12:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but you're mistaken when it comes to that sort of "nation" data. The blathery dispute at WT:MOSICONS is about whether to change MOSICONS to permit that sort of use, not about what that sort of use it constitutes. There's not any dispute at all that using such a template to indicate a player's birthplace nationality (not their professional sporting nationality) is, in fact, using the template to indicate their birthplace nationality; let's not be silly. There is no dispute at all that the guideline has an entire section called WP:MOSICONS#Do not use flags to indicate locations of birth, residence, or death, addressing (in the negative) precisely that case. QED. Many particular uses of the template also violate WP:MOSICONS#Do not emphasize nationality without good reason, which my documentation improvements also address. I guess I'll cite these sections in particular since you don't seem to be understanding this. The template in question also violates WP:MOSICONS#Accompany flags with country names, but that's another matter for later resolution.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  12:29, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm not mistaken at all. It clearly states under the "Appropriate use" section of the guideline that "In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when the nationality of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself." In football squads, nationality of the players is a pertinent issue. I agree that you have a point about the country names, and I have supported adding the country trigrammes to the template. However, because some editors are not willing to compromise, agreement on that matter has never been reached. Number 57 12:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I decline to keep discussing this in multiple places.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  13:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring

Due to the fact that you've added the information for a fourth time, failed to respect BRD and used edit summaries in a very bad faith manner, I've reported you at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Number 57 13:58, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Football squad player/doc

You and another editor are involved in a dispute at Template:Football squad player/doc. I've temporarily given the page full-protection. It is far preferable for the two of you (and others) to discuss this on the talk page instead of reverting each other. If this continues, this edit warring may result in a block. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 16:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

@Lord Roem: I was actually in the process of filing a WP:RFPP for it anyway, so no objections about that. However, I think you've misapprehended what's actually going on, which I've explained in lots of diff-y and link-y detail back WP:ANEW.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  17:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
PS: Actually, template protection's kind of pointless in this case, since one of the parties is an admin anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  17:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Damaged Lady

Resolved – Done.

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Inconsistency in MOS:ITALICS#Foreign terms

Moved to Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting § MOS:ITALICS#Foreign terms

I would like to point out an inconsistency in the Foreign terms section of MOS:ITALICS. Two terms, praetor and esprit de corps, given as examples as something not to italicize are italicized in their own articles. Both terms are included in Merriam-Webster. Finnusertop (talk) 12:25, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

That's not an inconsistency in the guideline, but article editors not complying with it. <shrug> Its probable that these examples were added after the articles were written (and italicized) without checking to see if they were italicized (in our articles already, and in general usage in other style guides). Whether it's in a major English dictionary doesn't mean anything; except for the shortest ones, they regularly include foreign words and phrases that are used by English speakers, and they're typically italicized in English writing until such time as the become totally adopted into English (e.g. "role" and and "liaison"). On this, I would consult Fowler's, Hart's, etc., and see what a majority of style guides do with these words. I'd bet good money they do not italicize praetor but that some of them do still italicize esprit de corps.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  13:53, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
@Finnusertop:: I raised the issue at WT:MOSITALICS.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  14:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 30

Resolved – Fixed both.

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Please comment on Talk:The Shock Doctrine

Resolved – Decline – I don't know enough about the book in question to answer the RfC question.

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Retirement over letter case

You may be interested in these discussions. You might not wish to contribute comments to either of these discussions, but if you do, then please let at least one night pass before you post them. (http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2007/05/01/thinking-during-sleep/)

—Wavelength (talk) 03:07, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I've commented at the talk page of the Signpost, where some of the same people are agitating for a one-sided editorial, because that would be a bad thing for our community e-newspaper to do. Not sure I'll comment more directly. Have sat on it a day, will sit on it longer. The number of irrationalities in these rants is quite high, and quite transparent. I think they may be so self-evidently fallacious that they don't need any rebuttal, but that depends on how much like-minded people in a mood to vent with false accusations and to call for witch-hunting decide to pile on.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  06:32, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Blue Army (Poland)

Resolved – Done.

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TfD nom of Suggest incubation

Resolved – Responded at the TfD.

Hello, Stanton. I've nom'd {{Suggest incubation}} for deletion. It seemed appropriate given its status as part of a project that soundly sleeps. This is to let you, as one of the few editors who've edited the template, know of this development. Be still your beating heart. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the templates for discussion page, should you wish. Be well. –91.125.182.5 (talk) 04:07, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014

Resolved – Fixed both.

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Please comment on Template talk:Geographic reference

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Undiscussed page moves

Resolved – Responded to this frivolous case at ANI.

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Any chance of a negotiated close?

WP:ANI#Undiscussed page moves by SMcCandlish. In my opinion this ANI might easily be closed if you would make any kind of a counteroffer such as a proposal for discussion of certain kinds of moves. Since I often close move discussions I'm aware that your actions are often in accord with current standards, but the strong tone of your answers at ANI seem to be working against your interests. Any kind of a solution that User:Jenks24 would agree with seems worth considering. I can't predict what Jenks24 would find acceptable, but he seems like a source of 'mainstream' opinion regarding article moves. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 16:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a good idea to me. From my last reading of the ANI it seems like there is a real possibility that you could be banned from moving pages altogether and, though it probably didn't come through in the comment I made there, I do actually agree with your opinion that "I think ANI and some other noticeboards issue too many non-trivial sanctions against editors who are not habitually disruptive". You do a lot of good work and I wouldn't want to see a move ban happen. I don't think you are habitually disruptive, but there's not doubt to me that these recent moves of yours have been disruptive. If you could acknowledge that and, as Ed suggests, make some form of offer about discussing via RM (for a certain type of moves only) instead of making these unilateral moves. Anyway, it's your call and you can take this suggestion for whatever you think it's worth. Best, Jenks24 (talk) 10:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Who will monitor to see if they are "certain kinds of moves" or if they have been discussed by this user at RM and the respective WikiProjects? What's the penalty if SMcCandlish violates any of this? I think we'd need at least a penalty and a mentor here. Basically, I don't see any need for SMcCandlish to be performing any moves on their own, there are plenty of editors to do that task - until SMcC proves to be trustworthy in this area. Dreadstar ☥ 21:52, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
New comment: SMcCandlish initiated a discussion about capitalization of species names, so "undiscussed page moves" is incorrect. The discussion is archived at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Archive 156#Bird common name decapitalisation (WP:BIRDCON). Please see also Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Birds#Bird names in lower case (version of 19:36, 11 July 2014).
—Wavelength (talk) 23:14, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
@EdJohnston, Wavelength, John, and Jenks24:: Indeed. The current plain wording of MOS:LIFE would actually completely decapitalize all breed name except where they contain proper names ("German", etc.), and I've actually done more than anyone else (see archives at WT:MOS, WT:AT, etc.) to dissuade any moves to decapitalize them, because some of the arguments for capitalization of breed names differ from those relating to species names, and few people at MOS/AT understand this. Even most breed editors don't. But back on topic: Not only am I not really engaging in undiscussed moves, in the broad sense, the demonstrable facts are that:
  1. WP:BOLD is policy, WP:BRD is not, and says explicitly that it cannot trump BOLD and that editors cannot be forced to engage in BRD. "That edit was undiscussed" is not actually a policy basis for anything, much less vindictive sanctions.
  2. My actions have in fact lead to a widespread BRD round anyway, which is what I and anyone would expect should one or more of the moves accidentally turn out to raise controversy for some reason. I'm a big fan of BRD being used normally and as it was actually intended. Moves are just edits; they are not something magical.
  3. The moves were made in an entirely good-faith attempt to bring a radically chaotic mess in and between animal breed categories into the beginnings of conformity with WP:AT and WP:MOS (and only in the most basic and obvious ways - I intentionally avoided various "arguable" moves, and only did those that should have been uncontroversial by the plain wording of WP:AT. I was not bucking some established consensus, I was using WP:BOLD (that B in BRD) to take the first steps toward standardization and cleanup. Every wikiproject that deals with breeds was doing completely different things, and not even doing them consistently with "their" "own" articles, much less communicating with each other. Now they'll start, finally.
  4. It is generally assumed (see WP:BOLD, WP:CONSENSUS, etc.) that no discussion and consensus-building is needed to enforce extant policies and guidelines because they already represent consensus arrived at by precisely such discussions (wikiproject demurrers notwithstanding, per policy at WP:LOCALCONSENSUS and WP:OWN).
  5. And, the entire matter is moot anyway, since that was the last of the breed categories I've been cleaning up – any further moves after those were already ones that would have to go to WP:RM because they're more complicated cases than "do not unnecessarily disambiguate", "use natural disambiguation over parenthetical" and "do not improperly capitalize"; all the remaining cases raise issues that have to be addressed on the case by case basis.
  6. Me being curmudgeonly is not a policy matter. Civility does not mean being "nice" and "agreeable". Ever since returning from my fairly long hiatus, I've been studiously avoiding making any personal attacks or assumptions of bad faith (though almost every single day I'm subjected to both sorts of invective from others; I could have had at least two dozen editors administratively warned and/or restrained under the MOS/AT discretionary sanctions at WP:AE, but I've never taken a single punitive step of this sort. I may be grumpy, but I'm not a WP:DICK.
There is, ergo, no basis on which to try to remove or restrain my page-moving abilities. I'm not alone in seeing this as abuse of admin noticeboards to bully another MOS/AT regular, a disturbing and increasing pattern (due to the number of anti-MOS admins, and their concentration in these noticeboards). Thank you for the heads-up that I'm really being considered for excessive sanctioning simply because I'm standing up for myself vocally, and some people want to shut me up. At least we're clear about that, and that would be valuable should I have to appeal any bogus sanctions.

@Jenks24:: I'll be happy to agree to something, as long as it:

  • is highly specific to this topic area;
  • follows the actual facts as laid out here, not the complainant's exaggerations and misconstruals, nor his most vocal supporter's wildly novel re/mis-interpretations of WP:AT;
  • assumes good faith;
  • makes no allegation other than being mistaken with regard to likelihood of some moves being noncontroversial;
  • involves no blocks, topic bans, formal warnings, or other imposed restrictions or sanctions.
  • cautions the complainant and any others to abide by the MOS/AT discretionary sanctions warnings, and stop "personalizing style and naming disputes", including the casting of vague conspiratorial aspersions, and assumptions or accusations of bad faith, against me or other editors discussing such matters.
Any vague and over-broad demands on me like my agreeing to never move a page without RM will not be acceptable (it would amount to the same thing as removal of filemover ability), nor will anything attacking my character or motivations, nor anything clearly punitive or wikipolitical. I also decline to agree that the moves were disruptive in and of themselves, by their nature, nor of course that they were by intent or incompetence; they simply incidentally happened to raise concerns that were not anticipated, because my interpretation of the relevant policy and guideline, while well defended, did not turn out to be the only allegedly plausible interpretation.

Those concerns that were raised are noted by me, and while I disagree with their reasoning, I accept that reasonable people can disagree rationally, and I thus recognize that further page moves with regard to breed articles are likely to not be considered non-controversial and thus should naturally go through RM. I'll also drop my insistence that the complainant be BOOMERANG admonished or sanctioned, although this was clearly a stellar example of how not to do ANI (or any other noticeboard), due to its vexatiousness, the narrowly averted intent to canvass, and other problems raised by it. Finally, my goal here is not sport argument much less WP:WINNING at it. Rather, it is WP having consistent, policy/guideline-compliant article names in this topic space, that all editors and readers can understand. I anticipate having to work with these other editors in arriving at this standardization, and consider this dispute very temporary as well as unfortunate, but in a week I would hope that it's essentially forgotten and collaboration is back in full swing. I'm already conceding about 5 things I would rather not, so I expect notable compromise, calmness and reason from the other side of the dispute, too. The personal attacks against me and other MOS/AT regulars have to stop, or we may as well just to straight to RFARB and skip all this stuff. Anyway, I'll be happy to entertain any reasonable draft.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅ᴥⱷ≼  14:18, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Informal note

Hey, I notice that you have HighBeam access and you seem to have a few topicons. That being said, if you are interested, I've created {{Misplaced Pages:HighBeam/Topicon}}. No reply to this message is necessary (and I won't see it unless you ping me), just wanted to let you know it was available. Happy editing! — {{U|Technical 13}} 23:46, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Charming

Your response to my comment was a delightful read, and your continued defensive wining about your victory just reinforces my decision to leave. But I thought I should explain something before I did, since you are labouring under a lot of misconceptions and seem happy to read stuff into my sarcastic farewell note that wasn't there. Mostly, you are claiming that people like me are claiming to have left because of a style rule.

A few years ago some editors thought it would be funny to make me an admin, and as part of the process I was asked to explain IAR. My reply was "There are times, however, when rigidly obeying rules can make for unproductive editors. WP:IAR is essentially a consequentialist counterbalance to the swathes of policy and guidelines, and it exists to remind everyone that the rules exist to serve the goals (knowledge) and means (everyone writes), not just so that they can be followed for themselves'.

I bring this up because it cuts to the essence of the problem. You are a champion of rules, and in championing rules you have not advanced the goals of wikipedia. For a long time there were somewhat inconsistent rules that allowed stability to flourish and maintained, for the most part, the peace. In ramming through this change you have alienated longstanding contributors, created bad feelings, and accepted these losses as th price to pay for consistency. And the consistency you have won has been Pyrrhic.Thousands of pages seem to have been moved, and the editors doing it have not, in many cases, bothered to make the changes in the articles, beyond the first line. The net inconsistency in Misplaced Pages has gone up and many previously fine articles are now inconsistent with themselves!

People aren't leaving Misplaced Pages because of a style issue. People are leaving because they are sick of fighting and dealing with editors like you. You have used the rules to make Misplaced Pages worse that it was before you started, and you have elevated the rules, and your own style preferences, above the general health of the Wiki. And I have no intention of wasting my time here if the general concensus is that wrapping everything up in red tape is more important than the wiki or the community that serves it. 122.59.232.157 (talk) 22:16, 12 July 2014 (UTC) (Sabine's Sunbird)

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