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Music

The music section states that punk band Kinoklub hails from Split.

1. That may be so (I have no idea really) but Kinoklub page states they are from Zagreb.
2. Even if they are from Split, they would hardly merit a mention; we would have to mention roughly 4 559 other artists first.

This looks like self-promotional entry. Check please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SplitSpencer (talk • contribs) 04:40, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

R-11 Split

The Republic of Croatia section includes a photo of the Yugoslav destroyer Split and a description of its shelling of the city in 1991. The ship's page, however, says that she was scrapped in 1986. There must be some mistake. Is it possible there were more than one ship named Split? Poliocretes (talk) 05:48, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

That should be Yugoslav frigate Split then. --Joy (talk) 08:33, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Split population edit wars

According to the 2001 census, split had approx 188,000 inhabitants. According to the 2011 census, it has approx 178,000 inhabitants. Such statistics collected by census figures are examples of city population. THESE numbers are to be reported in the "city" field in the infobox.

"total" and "City itself" are completely meaningless terms.

Urban populations are sometimes, quote "totally independent of the administrative subdivision of the country;" in Europe these are not typically compiled by the census bureau. in 2007 the Split police department deduced a population estimate for Split having approx 227,000 inhabitants; urban areas are not calculated in the same way as the census attains its information. The urban area calculation is different, quote "since the lines between city borders and the urbanized area of that city are often not the same. The 2007 Split police is a prime example of that. THIS 227,000 number should be the one reported in the "urban" field in the infobox.

While the metropolitan population claim is current unverified, as the definition of metro areas dictates that peripheral towns are also included in the methodology, depending on the outward reach from the city, the 400,000+ number is possible.

i've given you here links to various Misplaced Pages articles; I've also mentioned real numbers from real documents. These users who eagerly propagated only the 2011 census figures as the be-all-and-end-all of Split's population are WRONG, and persistent altering of the numbers back to their 165,000 claim, especially the extremely incorrect usage of meaningless terms such as total and city itself should be seen as vandalism, which they clearly are.
--OettingerCroat (talk) 09:13, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The distinction between the population of the city settlement (== city itself) and the total population of the city (== administrative area) is perfectly clear and legitimate. If you wish to rail against the Croatian Bureau of Statistics, go ahead, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Split, because they apply the same criteria on all settlements. All cities (gradovi) as well as municipalities (općine) are divided into settlements (naselja). Removing this offhand only from this article would in fact constitute vandalism.

Secondly, where is the source for the police estimating 227,000 and does the phrasing of this source say anything to the effect that this is in fact "urban population"? A reliable source would nicely dispel all the issues, otherwise it's hearsay versus the published official numbers - and we all know the Misplaced Pages policy of verifiability - it's non-negotiable.

I know how police numbers can differ from censa - a lot of people have their legal place of residence (prebivalište) recorded in another settlement, but actually live in Split (boravište) - to get a better income tax rate. But a census is actually supposed to be more accurate because there's only so much bullshit you can sell the census workers about people who are demonstrably missing from the location of a census interview. And for illegal tenants (podstanari) who wouldn't get interviewed - tough, neither the police nor the bureau of statistics can be accurate on that front if they're purposely avoiding being recorded by both.

I figure all is disappointment over "low" census numbers is really a disappointment over the simple fact that e.g. Solin and Podstrana are standalone city and a municipality, so they don't get counted like for example Sesvete gets counted under Zagreb. But that's how it is in the real-world and the encyclopedia article merely documents it. Such examples exist everywhere - for example the entire Zagreb County is separate from Zagreb and simply can't be counted together other than as a metro population, even if it's very closely entangled. --Joy (talk) 12:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Photos

Great photos but "too many" in WWII section. Some can be moved to Yugoslav Front--Grifter72 (talk) 09:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

File:VPB Destroyer (Razarac) Split.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:VPB Destroyer (Razarac) Split.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests April 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Misplaced Pages (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:VPB Destroyer (Razarac) Split.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 23:48, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

In fiction

In fiction, the city was invaded and consumed in "Avengers" #2 (2012). Lots42 (talk) 00:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

*looks out the window* Seems fine to me... :) -- Director (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Expanding the History section

I've undertaken to significantly expand the History section. I've been doing research and much of the narrative needs correction. When I'm finished we may require a separate article, with some kind of synopsis here. -- Director (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Kingdom of Hungary

I don't think Split was a part of Kingdom of Hungary. Several sentences are misleading. For instance: "For much of the High and Late Middle Ages, Split enjoyed autonomy as a free city, caught in the middle of a struggle between Venice and the king of Hungary for control over the Dalmatian cities" ; "After a long period of Hungarian rule, Venice eventually prevailed, as the Kingdom of Hungary was ravaged by Ottoman incursions."; "From this point onward Split and the cities of Dalmatia became the subject of a long and complex struggle between the Kings of Hungary and the Venetian Republic". See Croatia in the union with Hungary. Croatia was in personal union with Hungary, however Croatian land and Hungarian land was strictly divided. King of Hungary was separately crowned as a king of Croatia and Dalmatia. Asdisis (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

There is no confusion, and there is no misleading. Split was, for about 200 years altogether, a vassal free city of the King of Hungary directly, as s part of his title as ruler of Dalmatia. There is no evidence that Split, or any of the Dalmatian cities (Zadar, Trogir, Dubrovnik..) were a part of the Croatian Kingdom. The "personal union" itself is actually very shaky and doubtful (the pacta conventa is a known, deliberate forgery), let alone the idea that the cities were ruled by the King as part of "Croatia" (in fact, the titles of Croatia and Dalmatia were seperate in this period). Be that as it may, Croatian and Hungarian lands were most certainly not "strictly divided". The current state of the relevant Croatian history articles on Misplaced Pages is highly slanted and essentially showcases the opinions of Crotian national historians (and not all of those at that). -- Director (talk) 21:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

First of all. Personal union is not shaky and doubtful. Croatia has a long history in union with Hungary and its position in that union is very well known. Pacta conventa is not a proven forgery, however there are some doubts. That is anyway only one document. As I said, Croatian position in union with Hungary is well known. Split was not, not it had ever been a Hungarian city. That is way those sentences are confusing. They have the interpretation that Split was a Hungarian city. I suspect you have nationalistic agenda and it seems that discussion simply won't produce any result. Asdisis (talk) 22:17, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Never mind what you and your friends think and/or what you've heard in your elementary school history class. This is a common misconception/myth in our country. There is no evidence for the existence of any actual personal unions. The pacta conventa is most certainly a forgery. For all we know there might have been a personal union, but equally there might not have been one. There is no question Croatian lands (without Slavonia and northern Croatia) were very autonomous for certain periods, but we do not know if there was a personal union, which is a very specific form of arrangement. This comes from long discussions and thorough research, so I suggest you accept it and move on. Its a bit shocking to find out that "Hrvatsko-Ugarska" is a fake country, I know, but that's how it is. Nobody calls it anything but "Hungary" outside Croatian public schools.. In short: history is a lot more complicated than you think. I won't repeat this point.

Split was a "Hungarian city" in the sense that it was a vassal of the Hungarian king. Who came to its doors with his Hungarian army and forced the city to submit to him. Several times. In that sense, it was a "part of Hungary". And before that it was Venetian, and before that Byzantine.. It wasn't part of the Croatian Kingdom when the latter submitted to Ladislaus and Coloman. The city wasn't populated by Hungarians, though; or many Croats for that matter (at the time it was mostly "Dalmatians", i.e. old Romans).

The Middle Ages were a different time, you must remember. States were built on personal allegiance. There were no nation states.

I agree that discussion isn't likely to produce a result that you like, because you're quite wrong on every point. As for "nationalistic agendas" - I'm a Croat. From Split. Currently living in Split. The only agenda is your own. -- Director (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, let go pacta conventa. It does not determine Croatian position within the Kingdom. Split had never been a Hungarian city and those sentences I referenced are misleading. Please do not try to give yourself some credit by stating your nationality. I've seen that tactics from you in earlier discussions. I frankly doubt your claim. But that isn't important. I stated the arguments upon which I based my allegation. I had not mentioned your nationality. If I would need to guess, I would say that you are a Serb living in Split. It's nothing wrong with that, however misrepresenting oneself is below every lever. I've seen several discussions where you were quite adamant to state your nationality. You seem to think that your alleged Croatian nationality erases your nationalistic agenda. No, one's nationalistic agenda is not determined by his nationality, but by his actions. Asdisis (talk) 01:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes, I must be Serbian if I don't agree with Croatian nationalist nonsense.. No Real Croat would do such a thing.. I obviously mentioned my (very Croatian!) nationality in order to discredit your claim of nationalist bias on my part. You can phrase it however you like, but Split was a vassal of the Hungarian king, and there's nothing misleading there at all: its sourced, from Thomas the Archdeacon through scholars quoting him. We're done here. You'll have to find someone else to offend. -- Director (talk) 02:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

No, you don't have to be. That is just my guess. I stated that nothing is wrong with that and I do not base my allegation on your nationality. I explicitly stated that your national agenda can be seen trough your acts. You constantly mention your nationality, thinking you can overturn every allegation about nationalistic agenda with that claim. That is the first sign you may be lying. There are fat better chances that you are not Croatian, since you have anti-Croatian nationalistic agenda, which goes hand in hand with Serbian propaganda. Second, and more important, even if it is true, that can't erase your nationalistic attitude. You can be Croatian and have strong anti-Croatian attitude. Nationality does not have anything to do with that, so please stop repeating your nationality. I started this discussions so other editors can participate and give their opinion. I know there is no point in discussion with you since you wont listed to reason, because you are lead by nationalistic agenda. Asdisis (talk) 11:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Lead sentence

The current lead sentence was here, basically in this form, for years on end. I disagree it is "confusing" in any way. "Croatia" is mentioned in the second sentence and can not be mentioned (and wikilinked) twice, nor can Dalmatia be deleted from the lead text altogether. Asdisis, I get you want to mention "Croatia!" as many times and as prominently as possible, but you need to consider style as well. I oppose and disagee with the recent change. -- Director (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

The sentence is confusing to the readers who are unfamiliar with Croatian regions. Split is a city in Croatia firstly, and only then a city in Dalmatia. If you look any wiki page about any city, you will see that country is mentioned in the first sentence. If you also want to add Dalmatia into first sentence, that's ok, but Croatia can't be removed. That's opposed to clearly established practice on Misplaced Pages. I do not get your allegations and also I should note that your motives for such formulation are suspicious. In fact, your whole behavior on this page and in previous discussions I had with you is highly suspicious. Let's leave it at that. Dalmatia is mentioned right in the second sentence and I do not see why this discussion is needed. I do not see any reason, except nationalistic agenda, not to mention that Split is a Croatian city in the lead sentence, before the fact that it is located in Dalmatia. Here's a bunch of articles to disprove your nonsense about style: Šibenik,Dubrovnik,Zadar,Rijeka,Sinj,Omiš.You clearly go against established practice and your strong objections to my reasonable edit only show that you have some different agenda than concerns about style, that is anyway clearly different in every other article. Asdisis (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Disagree with your change per above post: "Croatia" can not be mentioned and wikilinked twice, nor can Dalmatia be deleted from the lead text altogether. It is quite common to describe a city's geographical position prior to its political allegiance, and is not confusing at all. -- Director (talk) 23:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

As I said, Split is a Croatian city and that has to be mentioned before Dalmatia. I had not suggested to delete Dalmatia but to make the lead sentence more understandable to unfamiliar readers. If you want to state that Split is a city in Dalmatia in the lead sentence, than a further explanation must be added that Dalmatia is a Croatian region. This is too complicated. The lead should be according to my edit. Split is a city in Croatia, and in the second sentence Dalmatia is mentioned. I again express my suspicion towards your strong opposition to such a normal suggestion. This is not the first time I try to make a simple edit and you strongly oppose. I do not think I have seen a single source from you in the previous discussions we had. I will push this to the end. I do not want to waste my time discussing you, since you are lead by nationalistic agenda. I've had the pleasure to waste my time with you before. We won't resolve this matter, so I leave for you, as more experienced editor, to initialize next step to resolve this issue. Asdisis (talk) 01:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree that the country "must" be mentioned first, that's no more than your own opinion. Further, I don't have to do anything: its you who are pushing changes. If you have a different sentence in mind, propose it. If you want to "initiate" something or other, be my guest - but the change you are pushing currently is imo a step in the wrong direction, and I can't agree with it. -- Director (talk) 02:10, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

That is the practice on all articles. It is unclear why you want to contradict that practice and introduce a formulation that would just confuse unfamiliar readers. No, it is you who are trying to introduce changes and you should lead the process. I reverted your edit and gave a good reason to do so. You on the other hand have unclear motives, as I explained. Asdisis (talk) 11:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

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