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Template:BLP noticeboard

Mistaken identity of US officials

I restored this text since it's basically the only notable thing that Clawson has done since assuming office, with widespread media coverage. There are 4000 Google News hits for "curt clawson india". The quote could be trimmed down, though. 9kat (talk) 02:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• The lack of anything notable doesn't mean we take a non-notable event and put it in. Number of WP:GHITS is meaningless. This is classic WP:RECENTISM. It's a minor event that will be completely out of the news cycle in a week, let alone being something notable enough in the long term to merit inclusion. Good gosh, he's only been in office a month. Concern over his lack of notable activity seems a little premature. Right now, this minor non-incident is being given undue weight. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Concur. There was ample mainstream media coverage demonstrating the notability of this incident. A few articles can be dismissed as non-notable, 4000 cannot. Gamaliel (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Even if we ignore the fact that 4000 truly isn't that big of a number when you look at how many carried the new Hobbit trailer, the number of hits is not relevant. If Justin Bieber gets a new hat, more than 4000 sources will cover it, but it still won't belong in his BLP because it's not notable. This is textbook recentism. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• The news media appears to disagree with your assessment of this incident's notability, and as always we should model our coverage on that of reliable sources. Gamaliel (talk) 03:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• You (should) know better. Simply getting coverage today isn't notability. WP:NOTNEWS reminds us that "However, not all verifiable events are suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages." It also tells us that " While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. " there is no dispute that this minor incident is newsworthy. That doesn't make it encyclopedic. Your continual parroting of a 4000 number won't make it more notable. It was news, not notable. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• What sort of coverage would make it notable, in your opinion? Please be specific. Gamaliel (talk) 03:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• It's not about numbers or which specific source said it. It's about the enduring notability of the incident. Both of us have been around long enough to know that 2 weeks from now, almost no news sources will be talking about this. Compare that to the suggested 10 year test in the recentism essay. This won't be getting coverage in 10 weeks, let alone remembered in 10 years. When I sorted the coverage by date, only 5 were from today and 6 from yesterday (the 27th). Only 11 out of nearly 4000 were from the past 2 days. Everything else was all in the first 2 days. Already we see the coverage is dropping off fast. Instead of trying to be the newspaper that we're not supposed to be, how much would it truly hurt the project to wait for 2 weeks and see if there is still actually significant interest? I'm willing to bet that time will prove me correct, that this is a space filler that will quickly fall into obscurity. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't ask about the numbers. In any case, no incident receives the same amount of news coverage after it is no longer the news, no matter how notable the event. I'm willing to wait if there is some sort of definite criteria we're waiting to see that you will elaborate on, instead of waiting just to wait. Much of what you've said strikes me as an overly broad interpretation of WP:NOTNEWS that would prevent any coverage of current events. Misplaced Pages does cover news, we devote a quarter of the front page to it. Gamaliel (talk) 03:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Which part of WP:BLP do you think this violates, per your second revert? BLP says "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources" actually suggests including specific criticism of Clawson over this incident, rather than just stating the facts as the article previously did. (Though I don't think we need to go that far, since the text already needed trimming.) Also, this occurred at the congressman's "debut", making it particularly notable. 9kat (talk) 03:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• I already answered that. There is nothing balanced about including this material. The first claim was essentially that 'he hasn't done anything else', which is a poor reason to include it. Then you repeat this "debut" nonsense. If he tripped on the Capitol steps and knocked down 3 other congressmen, I bet some news outlets would mention it. That doesn't mean we include it. He made an error and we can see that 2 days after the fact, the media is forgetting it and moving on. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I simply said it's the only notable thing he's done; that's just a statement of fact, and wasn't particularly an argument for inclusion. My claim of notability is based on the amount and type of media coverage, and analysis of the incident. As far as the "debut" "nonsense", I am just reflecting sources: . If Clawson tripped on the Capitol steps, it would probably be the result of an accident rather than lack of preparation, and I doubt numerous media commentators would be analyzing your hypothetical tripping incident for racial bias. ( etc.) I also don't think you adequately justified using your interpretation of BLP to bypass 3RR over consensus at the time (and probably should've noted doing so on the talk page), although consensus is unclear now and thus in favor of BLP so it's no longer an issue. (Reading further, I see this has spilled over to BLP/N, so I'll leave it at that.) 9kat (talk) 22:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The WP:BURDEN is already established as there are a substantial number of reliable sources that reported this incident, so there is no need to delete the content while this is debated. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

As for the recentism and undue weight arguments, I don't see these as valid. This person has become notable because of this hilarious gaffe, and it will forever remain on his record. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, it won't "forever" be there. We already see that after the second day, the media has all but forgotten it. I think outside input is warranted. I'll post this to BLPN. And meeting BURDEN has no bearing on keeping it in place during discussion. BLP allows for removing contentious material during the discussion. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The media will not continue reporting on this, sure. But that does not mean that the incident is not biographically relevant. If we apply your argument, our biographies will be all stubs... - Cwobeel (talk) 14:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Have you actually read recentism? This is textbook recentism. Anyway, I'm doing the BLPN entry now, we can continue it there. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You are most welcome to post at BLP/N, just note that you are the only one in this discussion arguing for deletion, all others commenting here do not see the need to delete that content, so your idea to ask for "outside input" is quite close to forum shopping. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Just because I'm the only one who has taken an interest in the article and doesn't fall into lockstep with you doesn't make me wrong. Your allegation of forum shopping is wrongheaded. Situations like this are exactly why those boards exist. If I went from one noticeboard to another, hoping for something different, that would be forum shopping. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

And yes, I have read the essay WP:RECENTISM, and it does not apply here whatsoever. - Cwobeel (talk)

• This is a textbook example of that essay. And again, there is a discussion at BLPN . That's where this can continue. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I commented at the noticeboard, but to repeat here: I think including it at this time is undue weight. That could change if any reliable sources mention it in the future as having a source-indicated consequence. Todd Atkin's and Rick Perry's statements and errors are rightfully included because they had subsequent, source-indicated consequences. That's what we should report, if sources indicate there are any. If it becomes the only thing he's known for, and there's some subsequent dimming of his political prospects, then mention of it will be needed to give an encyclopedic explanation of his career. But I don't think we can know that until a source identifies the resultant damage, if any. It's better to wait at this point, rather than editors making unprovable predictions about how it will be or won't be significant in the future. I agree that this kind of event can be biographically relevant, but I don't think there's a way to determine if it will be biographically relevant, until we have a source that says it has been biographically relevant, if that makes sense to anyone. Gaffes and errors should certainly be included in a biography, but at the time sources indicate they were consequential gaffes. __ E L A Q U E A T E 16:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. What is notable is that this was a junior member making a mistake on one of his first appearances, so it is consequential as it denotes how uninformed he was when taking part on that committee. The material is thus biographically relevant. Had he been a senior member of the US Congress, it would not have mattered as they make many gaffes in their careers, and Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid, but not in this case. Nothing UNDUE here, on the contrary. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• You are making Misplaced Pages a tabloid in this case. At this point, the matter is inconsequential. It was a minor mistake that is rapidly sliding into obscurity. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

My point is that I don't see that sources treat it as consequential yet. Yes, it denotes he was uninformed, and yes, I can see how that could be seen as telling, but that's not the same as consequence, and that's not the same as a reliable source making that argument. I agree that it was a seriously stupid interaction, but it needs some reliable source that says it actually had impact on his biography, not just that it happened. On one end of the spectrum, if it gets him kicked off the committee, it clearly had a biographical impact. On the other hand, if sources medium-term treat it as showing up to work with egg on his tie, then it would be undue weight here. If there are sources that say this event casts serious questions about his overall competence and people take that argument seriously, then that is a legitimate arguable consequence. But the only sources I see, at this time, are people lightly and appropriately mocking him for, in the words of the person he was mistaken about, an "honest mistake". I am completely open-minded about including it if is shown to have any subsequent source-indicated affect on his career, regardless of whether the original event was innocuous or profoundly serious. Again, I currently don't find arguments by people who say it must be completely trivial, or people who say it's a profound smoking gun to be convincing. Speculation about whether this will be treated as completely trivial or deeply important in the future is completely pointless for all editors here. __ E L A Q U E A T E 17:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• And I'll point out that I've maintained all along that "not now" is where we are at. If, as you say, a pattern develops, like it has with Biden, then yes, this may be relevant. I suggested waiting a couple of weeks to either see that it gains traction or that it went away. If this is so notable, it'll still be there later on. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

We could have an entire encyclopedia based on verbal gaffes by almost every living person. Unless there is some actual WEIGHT given by reliable secondary sources (other than campaign workers, brochures etc.) they do not belong in a BLP. "Silly Season" is bad enough without having this sort of stuff added to every person in office no matter their party or anything else. Collect (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The issue is that this was not your run-of-the-mill gaffe… As reported by reliable sources, including foreign press:

• WAPO not only was he not briefed (as he claimed), but he also failed to look at the witness list provided to him or even listen to the introduction of Biswal and Kumar. As a result, Clawson’s case of mistaken identity produced a cringe-worthy moment in race that was gobsmackingly bad — even for Congress.’

• BBC "It's extremely uncommon for foreign officials to testify before Congress under oath," he writes. "Even so, it's unclear if at any point Clawson realised his mistake, despite the existence of a witness list distributed to the various members detailing Biswal and Kumar's positions.”

• The Atlantic’: Whiteness Is Still a Proxy for Being American: ’”It's worth noting how unlikely it is that he would have mistaken an Irish-American for a representative of the government of Ireland or a German-American for a representative of the government of Germany.”

- Cwobeel (talk) 18:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Using descriptive phrases to fill space doesn't move this beyond run of the mill. Again, if this turns into a patter, like has been for Biden, then yes, it could take on some notoriety. As it stands, it's a single event that got some ink for a day or two and then went away. Move along, nothing to see here....at least not yet. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
• It's clear to me that the WP and Atlantic articles establish that this has real notability beyond being just an amusing blooper reel gaffe. Gamaliel (talk) 18:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• It may be clear to you, but it's not clear to the 3 editors that don't see the notability. Fortunately, we're actually getting some additional input now. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Simmer down, chief. Take a cue from those other two editors about how to respond appropriately to those who disagree. Gamaliel (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Simmer down? I'm not sure if you're condescending or clueless. In either case, your little warning is not needed. I have responded appropriately to you and pointing out that others don't share your opinion about what is clear isn't uncivil. So keep trying to pretend otherwise or contribute meaningfully. It' your choice. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Your contribution was not meaningful in any way, it was just an excuse to snap at somebody who disagreed with you. Grow up. Gamaliel (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your version of the events. So enlightening. And now that you've resorted to "grow up", I can see you've opted not to contribute meaningfully. Thanks for making your intentions clear. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The Atlantic calls it "silly" and says There’s no point in continuing to ridicule Clawson. Everyone’s entitled to a dumb mistake. The BBC calls it a "howler". I am open to the idea that this event could possibly follow him around for life, thwarting him in a profound way, but I don't see the sources as currently treating it as a serious event or indicating any real-life consequence to anybody now. As I've said, if it has any source-noticed consequence it should be mentioned, regardless of whether anyone thinks the event is serious or not, but not if the news stories only treat it as a giggle moment. If a notable person wears a shockingly bad dress or some other embarrassing accident, it will be covered around the world, but it won't be encyclopedic unless the wearing of that dress has a consequent impact on actual people, whether the subject or others. If later there's a news report that some people were hesitant to contribute to a gaffe-making rookie, that's all it would take to arguably qualify, as it would show effect in his life that would need explaining in his biography. __ E L A Q U E A T E 18:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

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