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Albums Project‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.AlbumsWikipedia:WikiProject AlbumsTemplate:WikiProject AlbumsAlbum Project This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

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Breaking down album articles by song

I'm the main contributor to the Hail to the Thief article. I could do with some advice about how to restructure it.

As you can see, right now, the article has a Recording section, a Lyrics and themes section, and a section for each song. I want to simplify this - the songs don't need to each have their own section. But I'm not sure where to move specific quotes about each song.

For example, look at the existing section for the song "The Gloaming":

The eighth track is an electronic song with "mechanical rhythms" Jonny Greenwood built from physical tape loops. Greenwood described it as "very old school electronica: no computers, just analogue synths, tape machines, and sellotape." Yorke thought it was "the most amazing thing that Jonny had ever written" and listened to it while driving country roads at dusk to write the melody and lyrics, which he described as "very much about imminent sense of darkness." He felt the song was "the most explicit protest song on the record ... I feel really strongly that it's about the rise of fascism, and the rise of intolerance and bigotry and fear, and all the things that keep a population down." Yorke later sampled elements of the track for his solo album The Eraser (2006).

This describes the musical style of the song. It also describes how the song was composed and recorded, and also, via quotes from the artist, the lyrical themes. I feel all this information is relevant and useful. But should it be separated and moved into the relevant sections instead?

For example, at the moment, the Lyrics and themes section contains only general information about the album as a whole. Should it also collect all the individual bits of information about each song, too? Should the Music section only contain information about the musical content (eg genre, instrumentation) of the song? Popcornduff (talk) 18:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Album artwork by

I saw this edit and it doesn't seem to be the correct place for this mention, well it's not (it's not a caption). The infobox template does not show a parameter for the cover artist, is this normally handled in prose ? Just not sure of the MOS on this issue. Thought this would be the correct venue for this query. Also posted here: Talk:Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd album)#Album artwork by. Thanx Mlpearc (powwow) 16:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Right I agree that this is not an appropriate use of Caption--this has been discussed on WT:ALBUM and the talk page of the template itself as well but never accepted. I'd recommend posting to WT:ALBUM in the future, by the way. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I believe this is the last discussion dealing with this. No one thought it was a bad idea, but it kind of died on the vine. J04n(talk page) 20:40, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks J04n, I really don't think it's a bad idea, I guess the avenue I was looking down is, it would be really nice to add the parameter to {{infobox album}}, was my first (maybe second) thought. P.S. you changed the size of your sig, :P didn't reconize you at first . Thank you Justin for the links. Mlpearc (powwow) 22:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Am I the only one who finds this silly?

That you have to wikilink all musical instruments, including common ones like piano, vocals and guitar. Are these instruments usually wikilinked in article prose? Even if they are, it still seems like a classic case of WP:OVERLINK to me. Lachlan Foley (talk) 06:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Linking To what should one link or not link? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Title stylization

Should album titles that are legitimately stylized (by the label, catalogue, etc.) have their stylization noted in the lead and/or be written in bold, as an editor did here here? Another example would be Channel Orange. Dan56 (talk) 22:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Definitely If an album has unique, non-standard, or otherwise out-of-MOS style (which could, of course be legitimate English), it's worth noting in the lede. E.g. Illinois (album). As far as I'm aware, this is standard practice on other types of articles, so I don't see why albums should be any different. For what it's worth, although this is the perfect venue, WT:ALBUM will have more eyes on any questions. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Personnel column divider

The column divider specified in Personnel is Template:Div col, which isnt supported by browsers like Internet Explorer. Could this be rewritten to "If the number of participants is longer than 20, the list should be divided with a column template such as Div col or col-begin." ? Dan56 (talk) 05:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Good thinking Of course. Go for it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:ACCESS and headers

I have changed the personnel section per WP:ACCESS, which says "Do not make pseudo-headings using bold or semicolon markup. Screen readers and other machines can only use correctly formatted headings. If you want to reduce the size of the table of contents (TOC), use {{TOC limit}} instead." We could add a note either pointing to WP:ACCESS or copy the line about using TOC limit and paste it here. Either works for me. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 22:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Plot Summaries for Concept Albums

I am not a regular wiki user, so apologies if this is the wrong place/format etc. However, I posted on the page for 'Jeff Wayne's Musical Version of War of the Worlds' suggesting that a plot summary should be added, and a user called Flax5 responded, saying that it was a good idea (which has since been implemented), and highlighting that this page doesn't mention anything about plot summaries for concept albums. I appreciate that this could imply changes to many articles, but I think it makes sense to allow for specialist rules regarding concept and/or experimentational albums. In this instance, plot summaries in concept albums. If it's not a good idea, then that's OK. But I can see how changing things for the better here is addictive. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.12.96.255 (talk) 00:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Definitely If the album has a strong narrative, then it's entirely appropriate to add a section about its lyrical themes and possibly how they relate to the artwork, genre of the instrumentation, presentation of the material in live performances, etc. Just make sure that it's all sourced. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to require mention of initial release format in lead section

Like the release date and record label, I think it would be equally as beneficial to the article to also include what format the record was originally released on in the lead section; e.g., if it's an early-'80s album it would most likely have been released on vinyl (most notable albums from this era are likely to have been re-issued on CD or released digitally on the internet, but I argue that this information isn't as important to display here, just like it isn't as important to state subsequent release dates or record labels of said album). I'd also suggest having an infobox parameter (which I've discussed here).

Does anyone else agree? Lachlan Foley (talk) 02:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Format Your proposal itself seems somewhat self-defeating: as you point out, knowing the release date implies the release format(s). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment – I think it would be good for the Album Article Style Guide to suggest or encourage that the initial release format(s) be mentioned in the lead section. Requiring that it be mentioned is probably not a good idea, for several reasons. — Mudwater 12:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I don't think it's necessary to require such information in the lead. In some cases it may be useful information for the lead (for example, for an album released today, if its initial release was cassette-only, that would be notable and worth mentioning in the lead), so on a article-by-article basis, if consensus agrees that it should be in the lead, that seems reasonable. But for the most part this doesn't seem to be information important enough that it needs to be at the top of the article. I think the infobox entry is completely unnecessary; you have the potential for three (or more!) formats at one time (if an album was simultaneously released on CD/vinyl/iTunes, or on CD/cassette/vinyl, for examples), which would just clutter up the infobox (we just finished removing all reviews from the infobox to reduce its clutter). But I think the best place for this sort of information is a Release history section within the main article. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 19:47, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Number 1 or No. 1?

This page doesn't clarify which use is more accepted in terms of chart position for an album. I remember discussions on this somewhere, but now I can't find them. – Kerαunoςcopia_galaxies 22:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Singles chart tables

I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but lately I've seen album articles with additional chart tables for an album's singles, which already have their own articles, such as with this revision. The tables are often copy-pasted from the artist's discography article. Should this be avoided? It seems like undue weight and content forking, especially when the singles have their own articles and the information is found again at the discography articles. MOS:ALBUM#Charts doesn't directly address this. Dan56 (talk) 06:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Number 1 or #1 - Discussion

Pursuant to the discussion here, a question has been brought up that I think we should establish some policy on. I know pound signs (the # character) are used as a formatting tool on Misplaced Pages, but they also represent the word "number". In articles where you can refer to a ranking of some sort (i.e. number 1 or #1, or even something like "No. 1"), what would be the proper way to place it in the article? I do not believe the current guideline mentions this. In fact, Keraunoscopia brought this up over a month ago, with no discussion. Let's have one now. CycloneGU (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

As an addendum, I finally located this in the Manual of Style. This discussion is to determine whether this should generally be the case on music articles. I'm not objective to either stance. CycloneGU (talk) 15:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with the current MOS. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 18:31, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• MOS:NUMBERSIGN is clear: "number" or the abbreviation "No", # should be avoided. J04n(talk page) 19:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive me because I don't remember my previous post regarding this. But if it was as recent as a month ago, then it was most likely in regards to the consistency of "charting at number 1" versus "charting at No. 1". Featured articles seem to prefer "number" for ease of reading ("flow" is a big word over there); it seems "number" and "No." are both perfectly acceptable options for any article rated GA or lower. – Kerαunoςcopia_galaxies 02:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, since my discussion is apparently directly above, then it just goes to show, I was looking for a guideline that was actually answered by J04n above. The # symbol was never involved. – Kerαunoςcopia_galaxies 02:51, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• "number" seems like a good way to go, if FA's prefer that. Nothing wrong with getting the article looking good as early as possible. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 20:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Like any other optional format on an article, it may come down to reaching a consensus if it bothers some people, but I prefer "number" over "no.", mainly influenced by the FA process. – Kerαunoςcopia_galaxies 18:32, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

In answer to that, I am watching this discussion and will close it in a week's time or so (or a little later if more opinion is needed), and then determine a consensus for the policy for music articles. For instance, many agree so far with the MOS regarding the pound sign, so if that majority ends up staying unchanged, the policy here will indicate that a pound sign is not to be used. CycloneGU (talk) 19:11, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• No. or Number, not #, per current MoS. KillerChihuahua 14:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Primary topics for albums?

Lately, I've noticed that there isn't a clear consensus whether or not to follow this guideline. There have been numerous discussions that have failed to reach a consensus (ie. Femme Fatale (Britney Spears album) to Femme Fatale (album); Teenage Dream (Katy Perry album) to Teenage Dream (album)) due to not enforcing that policy. Personally, I feel that if there is an album that is clearly primary over the others, it should be disambiguated by simply (album). However, others feel that primary topics for albums (and songs, for that matter) shouldn't apply to these topics due to the possibility of fading popularity over the years. As Status (talk · contribs) suggested, it would be best to have a discussion whether or not to keep and follow this guideline before engaging in other discussions that would rely on this policy. Please note if you support giving a primary album the (album) disambiguator, or oppose if you feel albums that fall under the situation should have the additional disambiguation of the artist's name. WikiRedactor (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• I was always of the opinion that the earliest release gets the main title. However, I found myself being overruled on that at one point in the past. I do agree consensus is required. I'd accept not having a primary entry or having an entry that achieved fame through large record sales (i.e. popularity). There's always space for a redirect at the top of the page for the 20% looking for another version of "Teenage Dream". The problem is that consensus at a talk page can overrule guidelines here. Guidelines here should rule over all. CycloneGU (talk) 23:45, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• If a guideline isn't going to be enforced, and cause more confusion than ease, it should be withdrawn or rewritten, via consensus, in a way that people are willing to enforce. --I dream of horses (T) @ 15:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• I would be interested to know if apart from Thriller (album) there are any examples of articles which already follow this idea of a "primary (album)"? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Also "others feel that primary topics for albums (and songs, for that matter) shouldn't apply to these topics due to the possibility of fading popularity over the years" - I don't know if that's the reason. In my case I'd expect Femme Fatale (Britney Spears album) to remain ahead in popularity, the issue is that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says "one" article, there is no "primary (footballer)" "primary (plant)" "primary (insect)" etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Right now, Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation#Partially disambiguated titles is now added as a guideline. --George Ho (talk) 11:52, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Thriller (album) needs to be moved. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

There is no "fading popularity over the years" problem. The only problem that may happen is the "increased popularity of something(s) with the same name".

There are 2 ways to prevent/alleviate the problem:

1. (the obvious one) Make all albums (also songs) uniquely named by including the name of the artist and the name of the album, like Femme Fatale (Britney Spears album).
2. Give the "primary" name to the most popular at the time. When something else becomes more popular, it can be "promoted" and/or the primary "demoted" or nothing changed.

Aisteco (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to remove wikilinking to common instruments

Instruments like guitar, piano, vocals, bass guitar and drums are commonly linked in articles in the 'Personnel' section (guitar is linked in this style guideline) and I feel this is unnecessary, because these are common instruments which most people would know, and, if other people agree, I think there should be a guideline reflecting this stance. We don't link these instruments in article prose, so I don't see why it should be any different in the 'Personnel' section. Lachlan Foley 03:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Neutral: I'm ok with them being linked, but if other editors think they should not be linked, I'm ok with that too. FYI, WP:POLL explains why polls are not a good way to achieve consensus. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 22:39, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Support: The guideline is WP:OVERLINK, which says not to link everyday terms understood by most readers, although "bass guitar" is often referred to as "bass", a term that has a separate article (bass (instrument)), so linking that may avoid any possible ambiguity. Apart from the more specific instruments, guitar and piano should be understood by most readers. I do have a question about "Drums" redirecting to "drum kit"; there is a separate article for "drum". Dan56 (talk) 23:39, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Question If we implemented this, wouldn't pages like guitar be orphaned? There are times when it's appropriate to link to common terms: lists, templates, etc. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:11, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

maybe so, such as in an article on musical instruments or the article on the inventor of the guitar, but not in cases like this, I don't believe. Lachlan Foley 03:20, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:PDAB no longer a guideline

WP:PDAB is removed due to lack of consensus, defaulting to being removed. You can either boldly revert changes or... leave as is. Or make a proposal. --George Ho (talk) 17:28, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Example

I think this article would be helped tremendously by an example article. For now, it's just a long article with lots of convention but no clear example, or something to copy-paste into a new article. Husky 00:13, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Listing album b-sides?

Is there an appropriate way to list all b-sides that go with an album? As in, any unreleased songs that were released on singles from the album. -Joltman (talk) 12:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I would include them in a section in the article (reliably sourced, of course). Perhaps part of a "Recording" section, or if no appropriate section exists, a "B-sides" section would not be unreasonable. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Should participants in the personnel section be ordered alphabetically?

There've been a few times at album articles when other editors have argued for intuitive order for listing the names in the credits, such as basing it on perceived importance of the musician/artist and their role, or basing it on the way they line up in an ensemble, rather than the alphabetical order that's shown at MOS:ALBUM#Personnel and I'm assuming is the guideline. Can we write this in MOS:ALBUM#Personnel, that names should be ordered alphabetically by the participants' last names, or is this still up for debate and not implied in the guideline? Thoughts, Koavf, MrMoustacheMM, Mlpearc, Rothorpe. Dan56 (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm used to seeing personnels that end in e.g. piano, bass, drums (typical jazz), or organ, bass guitar, drums (typical rock), so the alphabetical ones look rather soulless, as if they have been designed to avoid arguments, which unfortunately is probably the case. Rothorpe (talk) 23:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, it's something that rarely crops up, and usually I'm not too concerned about it. (Regarding rock and metal articles) The order is usually either alphabetical or vocalist-guitarist(s)-bass-drums-other instruments, and both seem fine. I don't have a problem with making alphabetical the guideline, but if it stays how it is now, I'm fine with that too. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 01:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I have a question Rothorpe. Are the orders you're referring to (like in jazz or rock) reflected in sources that deal with personnel/credits, such as liner notes or discography books? In other words, is this a common practice in listing credits? To try an example, one of jazz's most famous albums, Kind of Blue has the musicians listed in alphabetical order on the front cover (). Dan56 (talk) 10:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say it's common practice. I grew up with it, getting my records second-hand at Dobells in the 60s! That link also shows the back of the LP cover, where the order is: Davis, trumpet and leader; Adderley, alto; Coltrane, tenor; Kelly/Evans, piano; Chambers, bass, and Cobb, drums. That's pretty typical, and I'm sure there'll be many more such examples online (including on Misplaced Pages). Rothorpe (talk) 12:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)]

Yes, that's how it's generally done. Most jazz album credits are not done alphabetically; Davis deliberately asked them to do it alphabetically for Kind of Blue on the front cover, even though the Columbia art department misspelled some of the names originally. Look at the credit listing for his other albums, for instance Round About Midnight or Miles Smiles, and they are done in the standard method: bandleader and/or horns first, then rhythm. Kind of Blue tends to be the only jazz album a lot of non-jazz fans know, but don't use it as a standard for this sort of thing. PJtP (talk) 13:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

My two cents Alphabetical order was chosen for precisely this reason: not to pick and choose which members are more "important" or matter most or whatever. (What about a keyboardist who does harmony? A lyricist who doesn't perform instruments? Etc. etc.) Instead of encouraging edit wars over "percussionist is just as important as drummer", just use alphabetical order. It's simple. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The keyboardist can go in the usual place, after the guitars and before the bass. Put the lyricist last, after the percussion (as on Grateful Dead sleeves, if I recall). Percussion after drums is usual. Etc. Ad hoc consensus, no need for rigid rules. Rothorpe (talk) 01:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

@Rothorpe: "The usual place"? I would have thought keyboards would go after bass. It's all arbitrary and made up on the fly anyway. As pointed out by @Fezmar9: below, this is just marketing. Think of Motley Crue, where the guitarist is the least famous member of the band: does Tommy Lee get mentioned before Mick Mars but only for this band? And where do you put multi-instrumentalists? It's just inviting an endless stream of bickering over triviality. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Koavf. Misplaced Pages's sources generally list band members by order of importance because its in their best interest to put the most recognizable member first to capture the attention of more people and get more people to read their articles. Misplaced Pages does't share the same motivations. It should do its best to remain unbiased an neutral, and listing members alphabetically it the best way to achieve this goal. Fezmar9 (talk) 19:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

So personnels are political? All animals are equal? Rothorpe (talk) 17:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry everyone, but this argument was settled a long time ago, as in decades ago. In general, classical credits are conductor first, then orchestra members if they are even listed at all; jazz credits are bandleader, then horns, then rhythm section, then production; rock and pop are band/artist by instrument with rhythm section last, then production. This is the way personnel credits on the records themselves have been listed since records started being sold. Look at early Beatles albums - the order of the credits listing on Please Please Me and With the Beatles is Harrison, Lennon, McCartney, Starr. Why? Because Harrison plays lead guitar, Lennon rhythm, and McCartney and Starr bass and drums, even though the argument would be that Lennon and McCartney should be ahead of Harrison in the Beatles pecking order. If an individual record lists its credits in a non-conventional way, then copy that. This is the way it has been done for decades, and to do it any other way is goes against what has been long established by convention. Use what already exists. Things existed before Misplaced Pages came along; we're not here to reinvent the wheel in every case. PJtP (talk) 13:57, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't conform to the silly conventions or styles of the sources it uses; should the credits at Please Please Me and With the Beatles have the roles placed in parenthesis as well, as done on their LP sleeves? (, ) Is this "trend" even documented or written about in sources? Articles are supposed to be easier and more intuitive, and there's nothing intuitive about an arbitrary order that most readers are not familiar with; they are familiar, on the other hand, with names in alphabetical order. Dan56 (talk) 18:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Poll

• Support - because of what I said in the preceding bits. Dan56 (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose – I'm opposed to having a guideline of listing the musicians in alphabetical order. In most cases it's best to list the musicians in the same order that they're credited on the physical album itself. For a rock album, this will usually be either "most important" first, or the traditional guitars, keyboards, bass, and drums. Whatever's listed on the album will usually be the most appropriate and the most informative for our readers. And in fact plenty of rock albums do list the musicians in alphabetical order anyway. In that case, by this same line of reasoning, the article should list them alphabetically too. But, listing them in the same order as the album should only be a general suggestion or guideline. For individual albums, editors might have legitimate reasons to list the musicians in a different order, and this can be discussed and agreed upon in the talk page for that article. — Mudwater 21:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Track listings for film soundtracks in standalone articles

MOS:FILM#Soundtrack indicates, "Track listings for film scores are generally discouraged since the score is usually composed by one person and the score's tracks are generic descriptions of scenes from the film. Noteworthy tracks from the film score can be identified and discussed in prose."

Is a similar guideline in effect for track listings for standalone film soundtrack articles? If not, should one be? DonIago (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Project-Class Album pages
• WikiProject Albums articles