| Revision as of 10:12, 30 August 2014 editFigaro (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users36,521 edits →Sports image← Previous edit | Revision as of 22:19, 30 August 2014 edit undoMark Marathon (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users4,594 edits →Sports imageNext edit → | ||
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| *The image shows a group of Indigenous Australians. Nowhere else in the article is there an image of Indigenous Australians. The only image that is even remotely related to Indigenous Australia is an artwork I added by white artist ], as it represents a synthesis of Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australian culture. The current sports image shows what looks like a nondescript cricket match. Nothing about it is uniquely Australian, the match could be taking place almost anywhere in the world. | *The image shows a group of Indigenous Australians. Nowhere else in the article is there an image of Indigenous Australians. The only image that is even remotely related to Indigenous Australia is an artwork I added by white artist ], as it represents a synthesis of Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australian culture. The current sports image shows what looks like a nondescript cricket match. Nothing about it is uniquely Australian, the match could be taking place almost anywhere in the world. | ||
| ::While an image of indigenous Australians is certainly appropriate, the fact that this image is a twofer doesn't have any relevance to its effectiveness as an illustration of Australian sports. The image shows a nondescript image of some men wearing wasitcoats posing for a portrait. Without reading the description there is nothing to even link the image to sport. Therefore it isn't ''illustrative'' of sport in Australia. The whole point of an image is to illustrate the subject. People posing for a portrait is a good illustration for portrait. It's of limited value as an illustration of sports. | |||
| ::Nothing about the photo is any more uniquely Australian than the current image. Unless you are arguing that Australoids are uniquely Australian while Caucasians are not. Both are images of Australian people, thus either both are uniquely Australian, or neither. | |||
| ::So the image fails on two grounds.It's not uniquely Australian and it's not ''illustrative'' of sport. It may be related to sport, but a portrait doesn't illustrate sport.] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *The group in question is the first Aboriginal cricket team - the first in a long line of successful Indigenous athletes. In 1868 they became the first Australian sports team to travel to England, ten years before the first white Australian Test cricket team went overseas. The current image shows Australia playing England, but again this is not obvious from the image alone. | *The group in question is the first Aboriginal cricket team - the first in a long line of successful Indigenous athletes. In 1868 they became the first Australian sports team to travel to England, ten years before the first white Australian Test cricket team went overseas. The current image shows Australia playing England, but again this is not obvious from the image alone. | ||
| ::The proposed image shows a group of men posing for a portrait. It is not obvious from the image alone that the men have have any connection whatsoever to sport, much less that they are the first of a long line or any of the other points that make them important. I agree entirely that what is obvious from the image alone is of paramount importance in deciding whether it is illustrative. That makes the decision to exclude this image obvious.] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *The image was taken in 1866. This demonstrates the prominent role cricket has played in Australian history. The current image was taken in 1933, even though the caption is about Australian cricket's popularity going back to the 19th century. | *The image was taken in 1866. This demonstrates the prominent role cricket has played in Australian history. The current image was taken in 1933, even though the caption is about Australian cricket's popularity going back to the 19th century. | ||
| ::This seems like a non sequitur. Why does the fact that one photo is 30 years older make it more illustrative of the role cricket has played in history? I could perhaps understand this if one were taken in 1790 and one in 1990. But 30 years is less than a generation. And even if we were to accept that age is important, we have an image of an image of an 1858 intercolonial match that should be used and an image of The Victorian XI, 1859 that could be used.] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *The image was taken at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, the most iconic sports stadium in Australia, serving as the "spiritual home" of Australia's one unique sport - Australian rules football. The current image was taken at The Gabba, Brisbane, not nearly as significant as the MCG. | *The image was taken at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, the most iconic sports stadium in Australia, serving as the "spiritual home" of Australia's one unique sport - Australian rules football. The current image was taken at The Gabba, Brisbane, not nearly as significant as the MCG. | ||
| ::Firstly, this is at odds with the repeated claims made above that it is important that the significance of the image be obvious from the image alone. Nothing in the image would allow anyone but an ardent historian to link it to the MCG. Secondly, claiming that the Gabba is less significant than the MCG to cricket is contentious at best. Significance is such a subjective term that it would be impossible to reach such a conclusion.] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *The white man in the image is Tom Wills, "Australia's first cricketer of significance and pioneer of the sport of Australian rules football". | *The white man in the image is Tom Wills, "Australia's first cricketer of significance and pioneer of the sport of Australian rules football". | ||
| ::This once again seems at odds with the repeated claims made above that it is important that the significance of the image be obvious from the image alone. Secondly, to suggest that Tom Wilis is more significant to the history Australian cricket than Harold Larwood or the Bodyline tour is contentious at best. But even if we do accept all this, we have images of an 1858 match showing a cricket match and an 1859 image of The Victorian XI that could be used that both feature Wills.] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *The image is higher res than the current, and the persons are actually identifiable. - ] (]) 08:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC) | *The image is higher res than the current, and the persons are actually identifiable. - ] (]) 08:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ::The resolution of an image isn't all that important. As for whether people are identifiable, I would lay money that far more people would recognise Larwwood in the current image than would recognise any of the people in the alternative image. None of which has any real bearing on this discussion] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| :'''Support''' including the image, per above rationale. ] (]) 14:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC) | :'''Support''' including the image, per above rationale. ] (]) 14:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC) | ||
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| :::Restoration isn't appropriate. The image was added to the article, its addition was reverted and a discussion was started per ]. While disputed content is under discussion, the status quo reigns per ]. Articles are not supposed to be image farms and most sections in the article have a single image. We really don't need two for sport, especially when they are of the same sport. If we were to have a second image, it should be of another sport that is significant in Australia. Of course, if that were to happen we'd have another argument. --] (]) 08:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | :::Restoration isn't appropriate. The image was added to the article, its addition was reverted and a discussion was started per ]. While disputed content is under discussion, the status quo reigns per ]. Articles are not supposed to be image farms and most sections in the article have a single image. We really don't need two for sport, especially when they are of the same sport. If we were to have a second image, it should be of another sport that is significant in Australia. Of course, if that were to happen we'd have another argument. --] (]) 08:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Ok. ] (]) 10:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | ::::Ok. ] (]) 10:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | ||
| *'''Oppose''' The image is a portrait of men wearing waistcoats. While the men are unarguably of great importance to the history of Australian sport, the image doesn't '''illustrate''' Australian sport. Illustrative utility is really the only thing we should be considering for the inclusion of images. Without reading the caption, there is no way for anybody looking at the image to even know that it even ''relates'' to sport. As such it clearly fails as an illustration. If we think the men in the photo are worthy of inclusion in the sports section of this article, we should write about them or link to them. If we want older images of sport, we have an image an image of an 1858 intercolonial match that should be used. Nothing in Misplaced Pages policy suggests that its a good idea to use non-illustrative images just because the image has ''links'' to important events or figures. This is akin to using an image of the factory that built Bradman's bat on the grounds that it has ''links'' to an important sporting event, despite not being in any way ''illustrative'' of it.] (]) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2014 == | == Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2014 == | ||
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Template loop detected: Talk:Australia/Links
2014 HDI
The 2014 HDI is now out. Could someone edit it? The new number is 0.933, and it is still very highly developed and in 2nd place. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBoulderite (talk • contribs) 16:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Languages contradiction
The article says "Between 250 and 300 Indigenous Australian languages are thought to have existed at the time of first European contact, of which only around 20 are in use today. Many of these are exclusively spoken by older people; only 18 Indigenous languages are still spoken by all age groups." Except around 20 - 18 = 2, so using those numbers would lead one to conclude that few of those are exclusively spoken by older people. Since general patterns of language lead me to accept that many are only spoken by older people, the number in use and the number in use by all age groups should probably come from the same source.--Prosfilaes (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Two population questions
First, is it really true that Australia's population has increased from 21.5 million in 2011 to 23.5 million in 2014? That would be a 10% increase in three years.
Second, this line from the article has me scratching my head a bit:
Because Australia's census doesn't ask for racial background, it is unclear how many Australians are descendants of Europeans. Estimates vary from 85% - 92%. Asian Australians make up 12% of the population.
If the racial background isn't asked, how can the 12% figure for Asian Australians be known? Funnyhat (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just as a guess, those numbers came from immigration rather than census data. Before the 1970s, Australians of Asian descent comprised a tiny percentage of the population. If we know the origin of immigrants, then it wouldn't be too difficult to count up everyone arriving of Asian background and make a percentage of that number against the census total. Bit of assumption there; not everybody immigrating from (say) Singapore or India is going to be of purely Asian background. --Pete (talk) 22:32, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, large numbers of immigrants from our biggest immigration sources, New Zealand and England, are going to be of Asian background. Additionally, any children of that 12% are, by definition, going to be of Asian background. This is why we see figures like 20% of the population having at least one Asian parent. The number of "Asian Australians" depends entirely on how you define "Asian Australian". I've seen reliable figures that >30% of Australians are Asian, which is not surprising if 20% of the population have 50% Asian ancestry. By the time you factor in the likes of Bob Katter, who has one Asian grandparent, 30% Asian Australians would seem like a minimum if Asian Australian is anyone with any Asian ancestry. Of course if Asian Australian is defined by >50% Asian ancestry, or by self-identification or by some other criterion you get a completely different figure. The SMH article never defines "Asian Australian" or notes specifically where it got its figure from aside from somewhere in the 2011 Census. It seems to be referring strictly to immigrants from Asian nations, not to people of Asian race (whatever that means) living in Australia. As such it's misleading to tack this onto a section talking about people of European background, as though this is the equivalent figure for people of Asian ancestry. We need to either find the census figure it refers to and word this articel in the same manner as the census, or make it clear that the term "Asian Australians" was being used in an unclear manner in the source.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:45, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia cites sources for its entries. The debate on calculation should be elsewhere. Alan Davidson (talk) 05:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well, no. Editors also have a duty to make the articles aren't incomprehensible and self-contradictory. Verifiability is one very small part of what "Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia" does.Mark Marathon (talk) 05:52, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia cites sources for its entries. The debate on calculation should be elsewhere. Alan Davidson (talk) 05:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, large numbers of immigrants from our biggest immigration sources, New Zealand and England, are going to be of Asian background. Additionally, any children of that 12% are, by definition, going to be of Asian background. This is why we see figures like 20% of the population having at least one Asian parent. The number of "Asian Australians" depends entirely on how you define "Asian Australian". I've seen reliable figures that >30% of Australians are Asian, which is not surprising if 20% of the population have 50% Asian ancestry. By the time you factor in the likes of Bob Katter, who has one Asian grandparent, 30% Asian Australians would seem like a minimum if Asian Australian is anyone with any Asian ancestry. Of course if Asian Australian is defined by >50% Asian ancestry, or by self-identification or by some other criterion you get a completely different figure. The SMH article never defines "Asian Australian" or notes specifically where it got its figure from aside from somewhere in the 2011 Census. It seems to be referring strictly to immigrants from Asian nations, not to people of Asian race (whatever that means) living in Australia. As such it's misleading to tack this onto a section talking about people of European background, as though this is the equivalent figure for people of Asian ancestry. We need to either find the census figure it refers to and word this articel in the same manner as the census, or make it clear that the term "Asian Australians" was being used in an unclear manner in the source.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:45, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
The relevant RS on population size and growth is the ABS time series Australian Demographic Statistics. The estimated resident population increased from 22.5 million in 2011 to 23.3 million in December 2013. Migration accounted for the majority of the population growth over this period. Regarding the figures on ancestry, the Census data is pretty hard to interpret: people can nominate whatever two ancestries they want, and it's totally subjective: (eg, the 35% of people who claim 'Australian' ancestry would include Indigenous Australians, people from long-established settler backgrounds and recent migrants who identify as 'Australian'). Figures for the countries people were born or where their parents were born can be more useful if you want to get a picture of Australia's ethnic diversity, but are obviously limited in other ways. This ABS article on the various Census figures looks pretty good as a primer on Australia's ethnic population make up. Nick-D (talk) 11:32, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Why the artificial section division
between "Demographics" and "Culture"? Some sub-sections such as language and religion could be in either place. I propose merging them to one section "Demographics and culture". Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- I see no problem. Demographics and culture are two quite different concepts. Demographics is the consideration of the population through numeric make-up. "Broken down by age and sex", as they say. So we see the percentages of Australians of such and such a religious persuasion, ethnic group, location and so on.
- Culture is something we discuss in more absolute terms. We don't talk about the numbers so much as the subject itself. To put it another way, we could talk about sports, listing the percentages of league followers, football fans, rules fanatics and so on. But that doesn't describe the games, the events, the atmosphere, the traditions. One is numbers, the other is what people feel or do.
- The two things belong in two sections, and they are described appropriately in each. I see no need to merge them. --Pete (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- The split between "Arts" and "Media" ia really confusing. So film, television and music aren't forms of art? If the entire history of Australia can be condensed into one section then so can the arts. Merging these two subsections will require the removal of some content, leaving only the most notable. I don't see Alvin Purple surviving. - HappyWaldo (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Sports image
I added this image (right) to the sports section but it was reverted by user Mark Marathon because "an image of people actually playing sport is more appropriate". Maybe in some cases, but there are many images of people not actively playing sport that still manage to sum up a nation's sporting culture, which is what the Australian sports section needs. With this in mind, I think this image is superior to the current one for the following reasons:
- The image shows a group of Indigenous Australians. Nowhere else in the article is there an image of Indigenous Australians. The only image that is even remotely related to Indigenous Australia is an artwork I added by white artist Sidney Nolan, as it represents a synthesis of Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australian culture. The current sports image shows what looks like a nondescript cricket match. Nothing about it is uniquely Australian, the match could be taking place almost anywhere in the world.
- While an image of indigenous Australians is certainly appropriate, the fact that this image is a twofer doesn't have any relevance to its effectiveness as an illustration of Australian sports. The image shows a nondescript image of some men wearing wasitcoats posing for a portrait. Without reading the description there is nothing to even link the image to sport. Therefore it isn't illustrative of sport in Australia. The whole point of an image is to illustrate the subject. People posing for a portrait is a good illustration for portrait. It's of limited value as an illustration of sports.
- Nothing about the photo is any more uniquely Australian than the current image. Unless you are arguing that Australoids are uniquely Australian while Caucasians are not. Both are images of Australian people, thus either both are uniquely Australian, or neither.
- So the image fails on two grounds.It's not uniquely Australian and it's not illustrative of sport. It may be related to sport, but a portrait doesn't illustrate sport.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The group in question is the first Aboriginal cricket team - the first in a long line of successful Indigenous athletes. In 1868 they became the first Australian sports team to travel to England, ten years before the first white Australian Test cricket team went overseas. The current image shows Australia playing England, but again this is not obvious from the image alone.
- The proposed image shows a group of men posing for a portrait. It is not obvious from the image alone that the men have have any connection whatsoever to sport, much less that they are the first of a long line or any of the other points that make them important. I agree entirely that what is obvious from the image alone is of paramount importance in deciding whether it is illustrative. That makes the decision to exclude this image obvious.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The image was taken in 1866. This demonstrates the prominent role cricket has played in Australian history. The current image was taken in 1933, even though the caption is about Australian cricket's popularity going back to the 19th century.
- This seems like a non sequitur. Why does the fact that one photo is 30 years older make it more illustrative of the role cricket has played in history? I could perhaps understand this if one were taken in 1790 and one in 1990. But 30 years is less than a generation. And even if we were to accept that age is important, we have an image of an image of an 1858 intercolonial match that should be used and an image of The Victorian XI, 1859 that could be used.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The image was taken at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, the most iconic sports stadium in Australia, serving as the "spiritual home" of Australia's one unique sport - Australian rules football. The current image was taken at The Gabba, Brisbane, not nearly as significant as the MCG.
- Firstly, this is at odds with the repeated claims made above that it is important that the significance of the image be obvious from the image alone. Nothing in the image would allow anyone but an ardent historian to link it to the MCG. Secondly, claiming that the Gabba is less significant than the MCG to cricket is contentious at best. Significance is such a subjective term that it would be impossible to reach such a conclusion.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The white man in the image is Tom Wills, "Australia's first cricketer of significance and pioneer of the sport of Australian rules football".
- This once again seems at odds with the repeated claims made above that it is important that the significance of the image be obvious from the image alone. Secondly, to suggest that Tom Wilis is more significant to the history Australian cricket than Harold Larwood or the Bodyline tour is contentious at best. But even if we do accept all this, we have images of an 1858 match showing a cricket match and an 1859 image of The Victorian XI that could be used that both feature Wills.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The image is higher res than the current, and the persons are actually identifiable. - HappyWaldo (talk) 08:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
- The resolution of an image isn't all that important. As for whether people are identifiable, I would lay money that far more people would recognise Larwwood in the current image than would recognise any of the people in the alternative image. None of which has any real bearing on this discussionMark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support including the image, per above rationale. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose using images of dead people to illustrate a live topic. Sports in Australia is what people can watch in real time. On television, at sporting grounds. And then read the results in the paper. I would be happier with using an image of the Fitzroy team to illustrate Australian Rules than using this antediluvian image to represent modern sports. --Pete (talk) 19:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Australian sport is more than just real-time actions and newspaper results. It's a window into who we are as a people. Re image, I don't think there's a modern equivalent that can reveal so much about our society and culture. It's cricket (doesn't have a Barassi Line), it's Indigenous (needed due to aforementioned under-representation), and it's the MCG. It's practically Australia defined. - HappyWaldo (talk) 00:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't say much about Australian sports today. In the History of Cricket in Australia article, sure, but I think our readers are looking about information on today's Australia. An American schoolchild searching for material for a report, for example. It's a great historical image, for sure, but this article doesn't dwell much on history. This isn't to say we can't find a better image to represent sports in Australia, of course. --Pete (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think the image is a very pertinent symbol of reconciliation in Australian sport, which of course continues to this day. It's historical but for all times. This list was released only yesterday I believe. The aboriginal cricket team is one of five sports "moments". Another moment is the first recorded Australian rules football match, which Tom Wills umpired. - HappyWaldo (talk) 06:34, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't say much about Australian sports today. In the History of Cricket in Australia article, sure, but I think our readers are looking about information on today's Australia. An American schoolchild searching for material for a report, for example. It's a great historical image, for sure, but this article doesn't dwell much on history. This isn't to say we can't find a better image to represent sports in Australia, of course. --Pete (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Australian sport is more than just real-time actions and newspaper results. It's a window into who we are as a people. Re image, I don't think there's a modern equivalent that can reveal so much about our society and culture. It's cricket (doesn't have a Barassi Line), it's Indigenous (needed due to aforementioned under-representation), and it's the MCG. It's practically Australia defined. - HappyWaldo (talk) 00:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support. The image of the Indigenous team is an important one in both Australian sports and cultural history. They were also the first non-English cricket team to travel abroad (all previous overseas tours having all been made by English teams - to the United States, Canada and Australia), so the Indigenous team is also historically notable on an international scale in cricket history as well. Figaro (talk) 06:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because both images are relevant, I have returned the image of the historical Indigenous team to the page, while also keeping the image of the cricket game in progress. Hopefully this should resolve any issues with regard to the two images. Figaro (talk) 08:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Restoration isn't appropriate. The image was added to the article, its addition was reverted and a discussion was started per WP:BRD. While disputed content is under discussion, the status quo reigns per WP:STATUSQUO. Articles are not supposed to be image farms and most sections in the article have a single image. We really don't need two for sport, especially when they are of the same sport. If we were to have a second image, it should be of another sport that is significant in Australia. Of course, if that were to happen we'd have another argument. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because both images are relevant, I have returned the image of the historical Indigenous team to the page, while also keeping the image of the cricket game in progress. Hopefully this should resolve any issues with regard to the two images. Figaro (talk) 08:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose The image is a portrait of men wearing waistcoats. While the men are unarguably of great importance to the history of Australian sport, the image doesn't illustrate Australian sport. Illustrative utility is really the only thing we should be considering for the inclusion of images. Without reading the caption, there is no way for anybody looking at the image to even know that it even relates to sport. As such it clearly fails as an illustration. If we think the men in the photo are worthy of inclusion in the sports section of this article, we should write about them or link to them. If we want older images of sport, we have an image an image of an 1858 intercolonial match that should be used. Nothing in Misplaced Pages policy suggests that its a good idea to use non-illustrative images just because the image has links to important events or figures. This is akin to using an image of the factory that built Bradman's bat on the grounds that it has links to an important sporting event, despite not being in any way illustrative of it.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2014
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"The population of 23.1 million is highly urbanised and heavily concentrated in the eastern states." This statistic in the lead is now inaccurate, it's approximately 23.58 million. <-- Taken from the same source. Crystallisation (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Done - by another - Arjayay (talk) 10:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
2014 HDI
The 2014 HDI is now out. Could someone edit it? The new number is 0.933, and it is still very highly developed and in 2nd place. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBoulderite (talk • contribs) 16:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Languages contradiction
The article says "Between 250 and 300 Indigenous Australian languages are thought to have existed at the time of first European contact, of which only around 20 are in use today. Many of these are exclusively spoken by older people; only 18 Indigenous languages are still spoken by all age groups." Except around 20 - 18 = 2, so using those numbers would lead one to conclude that few of those are exclusively spoken by older people. Since general patterns of language lead me to accept that many are only spoken by older people, the number in use and the number in use by all age groups should probably come from the same source.--Prosfilaes (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Two population questions
First, is it really true that Australia's population has increased from 21.5 million in 2011 to 23.5 million in 2014? That would be a 10% increase in three years.
Second, this line from the article has me scratching my head a bit:
Because Australia's census doesn't ask for racial background, it is unclear how many Australians are descendants of Europeans. Estimates vary from 85% - 92%. Asian Australians make up 12% of the population.
If the racial background isn't asked, how can the 12% figure for Asian Australians be known? Funnyhat (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just as a guess, those numbers came from immigration rather than census data. Before the 1970s, Australians of Asian descent comprised a tiny percentage of the population. If we know the origin of immigrants, then it wouldn't be too difficult to count up everyone arriving of Asian background and make a percentage of that number against the census total. Bit of assumption there; not everybody immigrating from (say) Singapore or India is going to be of purely Asian background. --Pete (talk) 22:32, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, large numbers of immigrants from our biggest immigration sources, New Zealand and England, are going to be of Asian background. Additionally, any children of that 12% are, by definition, going to be of Asian background. This is why we see figures like 20% of the population having at least one Asian parent. The number of "Asian Australians" depends entirely on how you define "Asian Australian". I've seen reliable figures that >30% of Australians are Asian, which is not surprising if 20% of the population have 50% Asian ancestry. By the time you factor in the likes of Bob Katter, who has one Asian grandparent, 30% Asian Australians would seem like a minimum if Asian Australian is anyone with any Asian ancestry. Of course if Asian Australian is defined by >50% Asian ancestry, or by self-identification or by some other criterion you get a completely different figure. The SMH article never defines "Asian Australian" or notes specifically where it got its figure from aside from somewhere in the 2011 Census. It seems to be referring strictly to immigrants from Asian nations, not to people of Asian race (whatever that means) living in Australia. As such it's misleading to tack this onto a section talking about people of European background, as though this is the equivalent figure for people of Asian ancestry. We need to either find the census figure it refers to and word this articel in the same manner as the census, or make it clear that the term "Asian Australians" was being used in an unclear manner in the source.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:45, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia cites sources for its entries. The debate on calculation should be elsewhere. Alan Davidson (talk) 05:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Well, no. Editors also have a duty to make the articles aren't incomprehensible and self-contradictory. Verifiability is one very small part of what "Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia" does.Mark Marathon (talk) 05:52, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages as an encyclopaedia cites sources for its entries. The debate on calculation should be elsewhere. Alan Davidson (talk) 05:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
- More importantly, large numbers of immigrants from our biggest immigration sources, New Zealand and England, are going to be of Asian background. Additionally, any children of that 12% are, by definition, going to be of Asian background. This is why we see figures like 20% of the population having at least one Asian parent. The number of "Asian Australians" depends entirely on how you define "Asian Australian". I've seen reliable figures that >30% of Australians are Asian, which is not surprising if 20% of the population have 50% Asian ancestry. By the time you factor in the likes of Bob Katter, who has one Asian grandparent, 30% Asian Australians would seem like a minimum if Asian Australian is anyone with any Asian ancestry. Of course if Asian Australian is defined by >50% Asian ancestry, or by self-identification or by some other criterion you get a completely different figure. The SMH article never defines "Asian Australian" or notes specifically where it got its figure from aside from somewhere in the 2011 Census. It seems to be referring strictly to immigrants from Asian nations, not to people of Asian race (whatever that means) living in Australia. As such it's misleading to tack this onto a section talking about people of European background, as though this is the equivalent figure for people of Asian ancestry. We need to either find the census figure it refers to and word this articel in the same manner as the census, or make it clear that the term "Asian Australians" was being used in an unclear manner in the source.Mark Marathon (talk) 01:45, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
The relevant RS on population size and growth is the ABS time series Australian Demographic Statistics. The estimated resident population increased from 22.5 million in 2011 to 23.3 million in December 2013. Migration accounted for the majority of the population growth over this period. Regarding the figures on ancestry, the Census data is pretty hard to interpret: people can nominate whatever two ancestries they want, and it's totally subjective: (eg, the 35% of people who claim 'Australian' ancestry would include Indigenous Australians, people from long-established settler backgrounds and recent migrants who identify as 'Australian'). Figures for the countries people were born or where their parents were born can be more useful if you want to get a picture of Australia's ethnic diversity, but are obviously limited in other ways. This ABS article on the various Census figures looks pretty good as a primer on Australia's ethnic population make up. Nick-D (talk) 11:32, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Why the artificial section division
between "Demographics" and "Culture"? Some sub-sections such as language and religion could be in either place. I propose merging them to one section "Demographics and culture". Sminthopsis84 (talk) 18:31, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- I see no problem. Demographics and culture are two quite different concepts. Demographics is the consideration of the population through numeric make-up. "Broken down by age and sex", as they say. So we see the percentages of Australians of such and such a religious persuasion, ethnic group, location and so on.
- Culture is something we discuss in more absolute terms. We don't talk about the numbers so much as the subject itself. To put it another way, we could talk about sports, listing the percentages of league followers, football fans, rules fanatics and so on. But that doesn't describe the games, the events, the atmosphere, the traditions. One is numbers, the other is what people feel or do.
- The two things belong in two sections, and they are described appropriately in each. I see no need to merge them. --Pete (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- The split between "Arts" and "Media" ia really confusing. So film, television and music aren't forms of art? If the entire history of Australia can be condensed into one section then so can the arts. Merging these two subsections will require the removal of some content, leaving only the most notable. I don't see Alvin Purple surviving. - HappyWaldo (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Sports image
I added this image (right) to the sports section but it was reverted by user Mark Marathon because "an image of people actually playing sport is more appropriate". Maybe in some cases, but there are many images of people not actively playing sport that still manage to sum up a nation's sporting culture, which is what the Australian sports section needs. With this in mind, I think this image is superior to the current one for the following reasons:
- The image shows a group of Indigenous Australians. Nowhere else in the article is there an image of Indigenous Australians. The only image that is even remotely related to Indigenous Australia is an artwork I added by white artist Sidney Nolan, as it represents a synthesis of Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australian culture. The current sports image shows what looks like a nondescript cricket match. Nothing about it is uniquely Australian, the match could be taking place almost anywhere in the world.
- While an image of indigenous Australians is certainly appropriate, the fact that this image is a twofer doesn't have any relevance to its effectiveness as an illustration of Australian sports. The image shows a nondescript image of some men wearing wasitcoats posing for a portrait. Without reading the description there is nothing to even link the image to sport. Therefore it isn't illustrative of sport in Australia. The whole point of an image is to illustrate the subject. People posing for a portrait is a good illustration for portrait. It's of limited value as an illustration of sports.
- Nothing about the photo is any more uniquely Australian than the current image. Unless you are arguing that Australoids are uniquely Australian while Caucasians are not. Both are images of Australian people, thus either both are uniquely Australian, or neither.
- So the image fails on two grounds.It's not uniquely Australian and it's not illustrative of sport. It may be related to sport, but a portrait doesn't illustrate sport.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The group in question is the first Aboriginal cricket team - the first in a long line of successful Indigenous athletes. In 1868 they became the first Australian sports team to travel to England, ten years before the first white Australian Test cricket team went overseas. The current image shows Australia playing England, but again this is not obvious from the image alone.
- The proposed image shows a group of men posing for a portrait. It is not obvious from the image alone that the men have have any connection whatsoever to sport, much less that they are the first of a long line or any of the other points that make them important. I agree entirely that what is obvious from the image alone is of paramount importance in deciding whether it is illustrative. That makes the decision to exclude this image obvious.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The image was taken in 1866. This demonstrates the prominent role cricket has played in Australian history. The current image was taken in 1933, even though the caption is about Australian cricket's popularity going back to the 19th century.
- This seems like a non sequitur. Why does the fact that one photo is 30 years older make it more illustrative of the role cricket has played in history? I could perhaps understand this if one were taken in 1790 and one in 1990. But 30 years is less than a generation. And even if we were to accept that age is important, we have an image of an image of an 1858 intercolonial match that should be used and an image of The Victorian XI, 1859 that could be used.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The image was taken at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, the most iconic sports stadium in Australia, serving as the "spiritual home" of Australia's one unique sport - Australian rules football. The current image was taken at The Gabba, Brisbane, not nearly as significant as the MCG.
- Firstly, this is at odds with the repeated claims made above that it is important that the significance of the image be obvious from the image alone. Nothing in the image would allow anyone but an ardent historian to link it to the MCG. Secondly, claiming that the Gabba is less significant than the MCG to cricket is contentious at best. Significance is such a subjective term that it would be impossible to reach such a conclusion.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The white man in the image is Tom Wills, "Australia's first cricketer of significance and pioneer of the sport of Australian rules football".
- This once again seems at odds with the repeated claims made above that it is important that the significance of the image be obvious from the image alone. Secondly, to suggest that Tom Wilis is more significant to the history Australian cricket than Harold Larwood or the Bodyline tour is contentious at best. But even if we do accept all this, we have images of an 1858 match showing a cricket match and an 1859 image of The Victorian XI that could be used that both feature Wills.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- The image is higher res than the current, and the persons are actually identifiable. - HappyWaldo (talk) 08:19, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
- The resolution of an image isn't all that important. As for whether people are identifiable, I would lay money that far more people would recognise Larwwood in the current image than would recognise any of the people in the alternative image. None of which has any real bearing on this discussionMark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support including the image, per above rationale. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose using images of dead people to illustrate a live topic. Sports in Australia is what people can watch in real time. On television, at sporting grounds. And then read the results in the paper. I would be happier with using an image of the Fitzroy team to illustrate Australian Rules than using this antediluvian image to represent modern sports. --Pete (talk) 19:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Australian sport is more than just real-time actions and newspaper results. It's a window into who we are as a people. Re image, I don't think there's a modern equivalent that can reveal so much about our society and culture. It's cricket (doesn't have a Barassi Line), it's Indigenous (needed due to aforementioned under-representation), and it's the MCG. It's practically Australia defined. - HappyWaldo (talk) 00:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't say much about Australian sports today. In the History of Cricket in Australia article, sure, but I think our readers are looking about information on today's Australia. An American schoolchild searching for material for a report, for example. It's a great historical image, for sure, but this article doesn't dwell much on history. This isn't to say we can't find a better image to represent sports in Australia, of course. --Pete (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I think the image is a very pertinent symbol of reconciliation in Australian sport, which of course continues to this day. It's historical but for all times. This list was released only yesterday I believe. The aboriginal cricket team is one of five sports "moments". Another moment is the first recorded Australian rules football match, which Tom Wills umpired. - HappyWaldo (talk) 06:34, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't say much about Australian sports today. In the History of Cricket in Australia article, sure, but I think our readers are looking about information on today's Australia. An American schoolchild searching for material for a report, for example. It's a great historical image, for sure, but this article doesn't dwell much on history. This isn't to say we can't find a better image to represent sports in Australia, of course. --Pete (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Australian sport is more than just real-time actions and newspaper results. It's a window into who we are as a people. Re image, I don't think there's a modern equivalent that can reveal so much about our society and culture. It's cricket (doesn't have a Barassi Line), it's Indigenous (needed due to aforementioned under-representation), and it's the MCG. It's practically Australia defined. - HappyWaldo (talk) 00:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Support. The image of the Indigenous team is an important one in both Australian sports and cultural history. They were also the first non-English cricket team to travel abroad (all previous overseas tours having all been made by English teams - to the United States, Canada and Australia), so the Indigenous team is also historically notable on an international scale in cricket history as well. Figaro (talk) 06:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because both images are relevant, I have returned the image of the historical Indigenous team to the page, while also keeping the image of the cricket game in progress. Hopefully this should resolve any issues with regard to the two images. Figaro (talk) 08:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Restoration isn't appropriate. The image was added to the article, its addition was reverted and a discussion was started per WP:BRD. While disputed content is under discussion, the status quo reigns per WP:STATUSQUO. Articles are not supposed to be image farms and most sections in the article have a single image. We really don't need two for sport, especially when they are of the same sport. If we were to have a second image, it should be of another sport that is significant in Australia. Of course, if that were to happen we'd have another argument. --AussieLegend (✉) 08:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Because both images are relevant, I have returned the image of the historical Indigenous team to the page, while also keeping the image of the cricket game in progress. Hopefully this should resolve any issues with regard to the two images. Figaro (talk) 08:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose The image is a portrait of men wearing waistcoats. While the men are unarguably of great importance to the history of Australian sport, the image doesn't illustrate Australian sport. Illustrative utility is really the only thing we should be considering for the inclusion of images. Without reading the caption, there is no way for anybody looking at the image to even know that it even relates to sport. As such it clearly fails as an illustration. If we think the men in the photo are worthy of inclusion in the sports section of this article, we should write about them or link to them. If we want older images of sport, we have an image an image of an 1858 intercolonial match that should be used. Nothing in Misplaced Pages policy suggests that its a good idea to use non-illustrative images just because the image has links to important events or figures. This is akin to using an image of the factory that built Bradman's bat on the grounds that it has links to an important sporting event, despite not being in any way illustrative of it.Mark Marathon (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2014
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"The population of 23.1 million is highly urbanised and heavily concentrated in the eastern states." This statistic in the lead is now inaccurate, it's approximately 23.58 million. <-- Taken from the same source. Crystallisation (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Done - by another - Arjayay (talk) 10:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
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