Misplaced Pages

Talk:Yemenite Jews: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 21:10, 29 September 2014 editNeilN (talk | contribs)134,455 edits →Flouting an Ethnic Group← Previous edit Revision as of 21:16, 29 September 2014 edit undoDavidbena (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users57,006 edits →Flouting an Ethnic GroupNext edit →
Line 487: Line 487:


For a removal reason that's actually rooted in content, International's article has her saying, "I don’t believe in any religion, so I’m here as an Israeli, not as a Jew." You could argue this makes her a less than ideal representative of the group. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC) For a removal reason that's actually rooted in content, International's article has her saying, "I don’t believe in any religion, so I’m here as an Israeli, not as a Jew." You could argue this makes her a less than ideal representative of the group. --] <sup>]</sup> 21:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

::In answer to ], actually, there is nothing uncouth about showing a photo of Adolf Hitler in an article which speaks about WWII; or of Joseph Stalin during and after the Bolshevik revolution. These are all pertinent. However, where an article is primarily concerned with ethnicity, and one shows the "bad sad of society" - whether sexual perverts or murderers or notorious thieves, it is all one and the same, namely, it tends to show disrespect to the ethnic group in question. The controversy here lies in what is considered disrespectful, in my humble opinion.] (]) 21:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:16, 29 September 2014

Former good article nomineeYemenite Jews was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 18, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconYemen
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Yemen, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Yemen on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.YemenWikipedia:WikiProject YemenTemplate:WikiProject YemenYemen
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconEthnic groups High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconJudaism High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconIsrael High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Project Israel To Do:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconArab world
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconJewish history
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.


Untitled

I have read that the Yemenite Jews are the only group to continue to have knowledge of which insects are kosher. Anyone know the details? Rmhermen 23:04, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)

It is recorded in the Mishneh Torah L'Rambam the specifications as to what indicates certain locusts (grasshoppers) as being kosher. The basic difference between Yemenites and most other Jewish communities is that Yemenite Jews put the laws codified in the Mishneh Torah concerning kosher locusts into practice. I've heard that certain groups of Morrocan Jews also did so.

Greetings, I would appreciate IPA letters to show the difference between Sanaani and Sharabi "dialects". This involves Gimel (with and without Dagesh), and Kof. I also would appreciate IPA on "Sin" (dot above on left) as it is difficult to get sound data on it for Yemenite Hebrew. WRITTEN BY: amateur Hebrew student and author of http://e.domaindlx.com/hebrewtalk/hebrewtalk.htm

no diff in "dialects". just in nussach & minhag —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.23.50 (talk) 17:45, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

72.64.97.254 16:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)ll−

problems with accuracy

The "Operation Magic Carpet" section ties the emigration of the Yemeni Jews to the massacre in Aden. This is not historically accurate since Aden was not even part of Yemen at the time. It had been under British rule for more than 100 years. --Zero 05:00, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The addition of the riots in Aden was only added to describe the conditions of the times in the region. You can edit the wording if you feel there is a need for some clarification. --EhavEliyahu 21:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I will do that later (I'm 10K miles from home and have no time now). My objection is that the riots in Aden do not describe the conditions of the time in Yemen. In fact there was very little violence in Yemen at that time. --Zero 03:08, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yemenite or Yemeni?

Why is the article called "Yemenite Jews" and not "Yemeni Jews"? Is there a difference? Jidan 11:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In English Teimanim are normally called Yemenite. There aren't a whole lot of people that say Yemeni Jews.--EhavEliyahu 19:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The form Yemeni is more used in British English and the form Yemenite is more used in American English. Both forms are usable. -- Olve 20:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Yemenite is the English term while Yemeni is the Arabic term. The Hebrew term being Temani (notice the 'ni' at the end as opposed to 'nite') -- 22:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I believe in Arabic would be pronounced Yamani not Yemeni.--EhavEliyahu 23:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I believe that in Arabic the word would be يمني . so in the long run, transliteration isn't worth arguing about. --Kızılderili 02:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Greetings Kizilderili. It isn't an arguement just a clarification. I agree that in Arabic it is spelled ﻲﻨﻤﻳ but the transliteration would still be "Yamani" or "Yamaneyy" depending on what school of transliteration you go by. Just as "Al-Yaman" i.e. Yemen is spelled ﻦﻤﻴﻟﺍ The vowel in the word is "a" i.e. Fatha. Not debating, just clarifying.--EhavEliyahu 07:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
No problem, Ehav. I agree with you on the point of actual pronunciation. But, given that in English, the word is pronounced as with the letter e, and not a short a, that's probably the msot logical way to refer to them in an "Arabic" context....I'm not sure if that made any sense...--Kızılderili 16:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Need a section on Yemenites in modern Jewish culture

I think this article needs a section on the influence that Yemenite Jewery has had on modern Israeli and Jewish culture. Any ideas on what could be added for this?--EhavEliyahu 17:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Adenite Jews

Firstly let me say how well this article has been written and maintained.

I don't know any details about this but I am 100% certain that there are relegious differences between Jews from Aden and Jews from other parts of Yemen (Yemenite Jews). I have been told this by several Adenite Jews. I am sorry that I don't have any details but I just thought that saying something is better than not saying anything about the matter. Hopefully someone reading this will know more than me about the subject and create a new artical about this group of Jews, their history, and religious practices. -- 22:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I have heard of similar differences as well from the Jewish community here. Keep in mind that the two communities literally existed in two different countries for some time, and the highland culture of Yemen can be contrasted to the valley culture of the Hadhramaut. Shlomo Mizrahi 06:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


Copyvio problems

I removed the "Operation Magic Carpet" section. Aside from neutrality and accuracy problems, the section was taken from this web site .

Looking throught the article's history, I noticed the same user who added "Operation Magic Carpet" section also added most or maybe all of the other content. Therefore, the entire article may be consisting (or partly consisting) of plagiarized content. Perhaps there needs to be a complete rewrite of the article to best ensure that there are no copyvio problems?? --Inahet 15:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that I am the one you are referring to. I added that information a while back, but didn't have the time to do some edits, but for the most part I linked the areas where some of the information came from. In terms of the Magic carpet information, there was someone who mentioned they were going to re-write the information based on what they know of the situation. I have more time now so I can do some re-writes of the information.
In terms of additional sources, what information exactly do you feel is not sourced?--EhavEliyahu 18:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that you cannot take the work of others and place them in a Misplaced Pages article. Even attributing the information by adding a link to the source is not going to make it okay. You can paraphrase or even take direct quotations but you must attribute it to the source directly. If you use the web site as a reference/source to write the section in your own words, then there is no need to attribute it directly, just place a link under Sources or References. If your intent was to use this information as a reference for which you plan to write on the subject, create a sub page of your user page and paste the information there. When you're done, you can add your material to this article.
"In terms of additional sources, what information exactly do you feel is not sourced?" I was hoping you would tell me what was copied. At this point I think you should remove all the information taken from other web sites. Needless to say, you can use them as sources but you cannot copy the work directly. --Inahet 19:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I have taken out the two sections that were copied. I am now going in and added the sources for the other informaiton in the article. I will finish added the sources tomorrow and will work on a revised version of the Operation Magic Carpet--EhavEliyahu 23:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

sanaite?

Whosoever wrote this article introduces the term Sanaite Jews without once explaining what that means.

It means jews who come from Sanaa in Yemen. Jidan 16:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The article is still in progress so there are a number of things that can be explored in more detail.--EhavEliyahu 19:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it would be an excellent addition to add source information pertaining to where details of the legend of the Sanaaite Jews may be obtained. Certainly it is recorded somewhere within their historical writings, correct? LGAcheson 17:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Asia in topic

Can this article be moved to History of the Jews in Yemen like all the other similar articles? This way it also fits the template. NYC2TLV 10:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is still valid the way it is. There are articles similar to it like Sephardic Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Beta Israel, etc.--EhavEliyahu 20:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Remaining Jews in Yemen?

שלום אחיי - I suppose the answer to this question will probably be 'no' (although I hope it won't), but: are there any remaining Jews in Yemen? What conditions do they live and worship in? It'd be good if we can include some information on this in the article! Thx&greetings from foggy Manchester, FreshBreeze 22:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The information about the Jews who remain in Yemen is sparse. People with travel to Israel or with Israeli passports are not allowed to visit the Jews there. The only Jews allowed in are ones who are anti-Zionist. So there is not going to be a dearth of information about the few Jews who are still there.--EhavEliyahu 19:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The original ethnic Jews look like these Yemenite Jews (black hair and olive skin), together with the traditional costumes they're wearing. The ones you often see today with ligther complexion with the black suit piece and broad-brimmed hat are the Ashkenazi or Shepardi (European) Jews (e.g. Adam Sandler, Paul Newman, Bitty Schram and Jemima Khan) - as there have been common intermarriage ever since the Jews set foot in Europe. --Fantastic4boy 09:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Dead Links

The table at the bottom, History of the Jews in Asia, contains overwhelmingly dead links to non-articles. Should this be deleted? Shlomo Mizrahi 06:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Disputed

  • The following sentence, at the end of the "History of the Community" section, is controversial and significant, and requires appropriate citation if it is to be kept: "They would later be accused of taking the children away from their parents, inoculating the children with secular philosophy, and forcing them to abandon their 2,000+ years traditions of maintaining long peyot and other Orthodox Jewish religious customs." Newacct 02:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I deleted it.--EhavEliyahu 03:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


persecution by islam

i fail to understand why all the history on this is left out without even a footnote mention on the english wiki. Jaakobou 15:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Mainly because the article is not in a finished state. If you have information you want to add please do. Thanks.--EhavEliyahu 04:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a Yemanite or a Yemenite Jews expert, but such attrocities as the Maoze exlie/genocide and the decree mentioned in the hope-simpson document should be in this article... i hope someone will either do the research or call out a relative for that information. Jaakobou 00:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I knew a man, in Israel, who had personally experienced this. I knew him for many years and he was quite trustworthy. In addition, I personally knew an older couple who related to me how they were told to shower, prior to setting foot in Israel. While they were showering, their valuables, and traditional cloths, were stolen. Instead, they were given trousers and shirts. I also have a book (in Hebrew), that details the kidnappings and other atrocities. It includes much documentation. So these facts should not be in dispute. The name of the book is "On The Claws of Eagles". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhayat (talk • contribs) 01:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah knowing man is not a valid source. There is a discrimination in Yemen against Jews that's for sure but not to the level this article is mentioning. I'm surprised by the fact that nothing is mentioned about how Yemenite were treated when they first moved to Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendite (talk • contribs) 01:15, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

their present state

i honestly thing their welfare in israel should be included in this article, how they were not easily assimilated to israeli-ashkenazi society and the stories of Yemenite children being stolen during operation magic carpet, as well as their genetic-ethnic relations to yemenite gentiles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.171.33.101 (talk) 06:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree. I think we should add the "genetic-ethnic relations" information to all the other articles pertaining to other Jewish communities as well. Let's begin with the article on the Jewish community of greatest population: Ashkenazim. They have a section linking their genetic roots to the Middle East, but how about some info. pertaining to their genetic-ethnic relations to European non-Jews?

Yosef  ;) Omedyashar 12:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

What you can do is go to the Kohen-Levi web-site and they have a lot of information about Ashkenazim and their connection to other Jewish communities. The information I added for this, the Yemenite article, I found on the internet. So there are a number of sources that can be added to the Ashkenazi article.--EhavEliyahu 16:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The Satmar affiliated organisation mentioned in the main article is Mifal Chasodim Tovim Ezer L'yehudi Teimon ,46 Main Street Suit 234, Monsey,NY 10952 Tel: (845)629-1882 Fax:(845)774-8653 Rabbi Yitzchok Berel Hershkowitz, Administrator

To donate money for the needy jews in Yemen send to Hatzolas Pleitey Taimon c/o Rabbi Shimshon Hatucka, PO BOX 595, Monsey NY 10952


Jewish - Muslim relationship in Yemen through time

After prophet Muhammad had expelled or killed all Jews who were then settled in what is now-days Saudi-Arabia


—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.167.23.50 (talk) 17:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC) Well, this just sounds like a very casual reference to one-sided story, making it seem that Muhammad persecuted Jews and was a Jewish hater. Muhammad didn't make the order of killing Jews. It was a man named Saad bin Muath whom Jews chose as an arbitrator and decision-maker. He ordered killing of men of one specific tribe due to their treason (Banu Qurayzah). There was an official order of Jews to be expelled, but at the same time, if there were literally no Jews left during Muhammad's life in present-day Saudi Arabia due to Muhammad's expulsion and killing of Jews, then why is it commonly known in Islamic History that when Muhammad died, his shield was mortgaged with a Jew few days before his death.

The writer needs to be clarified.

GA Status

The article has passed Sections 5) and 6). Work is needed on Sections 1), 2), 3) and 4).

Overall, the assessment is ON HOLD.

#done segments <-> #needs to be done. Jaakobou 18:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

done segments

checkY Done segments (click "" to see text)

1) Style

Rise of Islam in Yemen section

  • Remove the "to" in "he had to the option" - done

Religious traditions section

  • Comma after "observance" - did this instead:
  • Replace "continued to practice" with "continued to practise" - changed to 's' in the subsection where fitting:
  • Add "themselves" after "prostrate" - done
  • Replace "among" with "amongst" - done

Dor Daim and Iqshim dispute section

  • Add "the" before "army" - done
  • Replace "had exposed" with "had been exposed" - done

DNA Testing section

  • Replace "contrast" with "differ" - done

First wave of emigration: 1881 to 1914 section

  • Remove the "as" that appears after "these changes" - done

19th-century Yemenite messianic movements section

Early history section

needs to be done

2) Accuracy

Early History section

  • Entire section needs referencing. You cannot refer to "traditions" or "legends" References must be provided. Where do these legends and traditions come from ? You must have got them from somewhere ? Ensure that the entire section is correctly referenced as per WP:CITET]. Article will fail otherwise.

Yemenite Jews and Maimonides section

  • The sentence starting "The average Jewish population,,,,,," does not make sense. How could it have possibly been only 3,000 particularly since the Early History section talks of the Jews actually ruling the country ? Rewrite and re-reference.
  • Expand the sentence "When Saladin became sultan,,,,," Why did the trials of the Jews begin if Saladin was in conflict with Shi'ites ? It needs to be explained.
  • Give a reference for the claim that the condition of the Jews was "miserable".
  • Give a reference for the claim "they were said to have numbered 30,000"

Religious traditions section

  • Sad'a is a non-existent link.
  • Explain "Ma'lamed"

Form of Hebrew section

  • Add a reference for the claim "which he rules is correct"
  • Add a reference for the claim *misunderstanding of Saadia Gaon's words"

Writings section

  • Expain "after the Spanish school"

DNA Testing section

  • Wiki-link "haplotype"

References

  • All books listed must have ISBN numbers.

3) Coverage

Write a new section "Yemenite Jews today" divided into two-sub-sections, Yemenite Jews still living in Yemen and Yemenite Jews in Israel. What has happened to them ? Do they face discrimination in Israel and Yemen ? How is the community organised in Israel and Yemen ?

4) Neutrality

References must be found for the "legends" and "traditions" mentioned in the article. If you cannot find the references then delete all mention of "legends" and "traditions". Misplaced Pages must be fact based.

5) Stability

Article is stable without major edit wars.

6) Photos

Free public domain phtos are used. Good use of photos. No Fair Use photos.

The corrections, as specified above, must be done by 18 December 2007. Contact me when they have been and I shall re-assess.

Tovojolo (talk) 01:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

- first wave done by Jaakobou 16:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

- breaking into two main segments done. Jaakobou 18:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Status Fail

I note that, though some of the work, required to achieve GA Status, was done, most was not. I regard the outstanding work as being material. I, therefore, have no alternative but to declare that the article has now been assessed as a FAIL.

Tovojolo (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

to continue improving on this, go here. Jaakobou 18:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Solution to Arabia vs Saudi Arabia vs Arabian Peninsula

Please see the following articles that should now solve the problems we have been discussing:

This took me a while to write, research and organize, but it was well worth the time and efforts I put into it to create clarity and avoid confusion from now on. Thank you very much, IZAK (talk) 13:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks very nice. I'm thinking we should consider making two separate articles from the Yemenite Jews article: 'History of the Jews in Yemen' which will be linked into the History article list and 'Yemenite Jews' which will have a small history section with a wiki-link to the main History article, and will focus more on culture and features, and also perhaps on the Yemenite Jews who came to Israel. Thoughts? Jaakobou 21:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Languages: Yiddish

A recent article in the Jewish Chronicle about Yemeni Jews preparing to be brought to London by Haredi Jews says: "They speak Yiddish, Hebrew and Arabic; some have learnt English." Can that Yiddish bit be correct? I can't imagine why they would speak Yiddish. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It may have been the result of the Heredim providing them with resources to learn Yiddish. I.e. indoctrinating them.--EhavEliyahu (talk) 11:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Query - Tihamah expulsion

I'm not sure why there's no mention of historical pogroms and expulsions on the article. Surely the Muza exile, for example, is a notable event. Jaakobou 23:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


DNA

I fail to see the importance of speculating on the proportion of "sub-Saharan" (i.e. black African) genetic material. It is routinely included in DNA articles on Jews and treated almost as an infection.

Yaron —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.60.137 (talk) 00:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

It is included in the article due to it being a part of a DNA study where the question of Ethiopian Jewish migration was in question. There are some believe that maybe the Ethiopian Jews descend from Yemenite Jews who crossed over into Ethiopia. The DNA testing sheds light that this connection may not of been the case. What is being discussed is not a matter of disease, but of information about genetic testing and migrations of people. --EhavEliyahu (talk) 11:18, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The article regarding Yemen Jews and DNA states:

DNA testing between Yemenite Jews and various other of the world's Jewish communities shows a common link, with most communities sharing similar paternal genetic profiles. Furthermore, the Y-chromosome signatures of the Yemenite Jews are also similar to those of other Middle Eastern populations.

My question is: how can there be a common link between all Jewish communities paternal genetic profiles when it is a well-known fact that there was wholesale proselyzing by Jewish "missionaries" and a concomitant wide-spread conversion of significant gentile populations throughout the greater Mediterranean area during the period 200BCE-300CE? SanFranEditor (talk) 18:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

My question to SanFranEditor: What is your source for this "well-known fact"? Dr. Phillip M. Feldman (talk) 07:59, 6 November 2013 (UTC)


Mr. Philip the fact is archaeological evidence and the genetic proximity between Yemenite Jews and non Jewish Yemenite people that suggests a an Arabic/Bedouin origin for Yemenite Jews, paternal/maternal lineages make up a fraction of ones ancestry. As for the ancestors of the Ashkenazis and Sephardis, there's a very close genetic proximity between these and Italian populations, so much so that in most cases Ashkenazis and Sephardis cluster not in the Levant but in Italy, the result of this is a European component among Ashkenazis and Sephardis called K5, if K5 were to be removed then the Ashkenazis shift from Italians and Greeks to Druze and Lebanese Muslims, this suggests admixture between Jews and host European populations during the pre Christian Roman era. Here's my source in the case of the European ancestry of Ashkenazis/Sephardis: "http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints". As for the Arabic origin of Yemenite Jews, my source is the book, "The story of the Jews Volume 1" by Simon Schama, a known British historian who happens to have a Misplaced Pages page. Guy355 (talk) 16:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

  1. DNA Evidence for Common Jewish Origin and Maintenance of the Ancestral Genetic Profile, By Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman

Yemen's last Jews set to flee country

This site: talks about the end of judaism in Yemen.Agre22 (talk) 13:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)agre22

Orphaned references in Yemenite Jews

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Yemenite Jews's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "CBS":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 04:44, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Arab dating source

"In 1881, the French vice consulate in Yemen wrote to the leaders of the Alliance in France, that he read a book of the Arab historian Abu-Alfada, that the Jews of Yemen settled in the area in 1451 BC." According to Jewish chronology Israelites were at this time still in Egypt. Joseph (Biblical figure) died in 1452 BCE/2309. 2923–2963 Solomon reigns as king of Israel (1 Kings 26:42) and this time frame is far more likely --Meieimatai? 11:52, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Claims of discrimination in Israel

I saw that some IP removed this claim though maybe unwarranted it really rise some questions Does any one here have some kind of source that verify this claim.It probably should be some poll that claims it.--Shrike (talk) 11:45, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

As no one object I will remove this claim--Shrike (talk) 18:27, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Talbis

Last night I attended a Yemenite Jewish wedding. The invitation informed me I would be attending a "Talbis", but when I googled this could not find any information whatsoever. The custom pertains only to the community of Aden. I believe it should be documented on the web, so I added it to the end of the Yemenite wedding customs section. The picture at http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=28876 might be uploadable, but I don't know for sure if it's not copyright - the Hebrew article gives no name to the photographer but it is a news website.Written by Yael U 05:23, 13 December 2011

article in Haaretz - copyright violation

It is perfectly fine to use the recent Haaretz article, but the text someone inserted is copy-pasted with only one or two words changed. This is a copyright violation. Also it is just the introduction and not a great summary of the whole thing. Please paraphrase the information instead of copying. Zero 01:07, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

This article is hilarious

It doesn't mention anything about how Yemenite Jews discriminated against in Israel, and no the yemeni government didn't go to extreme measure to keep them as a matter of fact they want them leave. This article is heavily biased especially the section "Muslim Jewish relationship". I don't know what History book is he reading but Yemen was not occupied by Arabs. Yemen is occupying the southern half of the Arabian peninsula and converted to Islam from paganism in 7th century without a war. Mohammed sent a message to the Kings of Himyar ( As most Jews were living under their protection) stating that a Jew may stay on his religion as long as he/she pay their "jizya" (and Muslims have to pay Zakat). The himyrate Kings were the ones who sent to Mohammed telling him that they had converted to islam and willing to kill Al-Aswad Al-Ansi (who expelled the Persians and some Jews from yemen and claimed prophecy).

A lot of things mentioned here need to be validated.

  • "a new status of "Dhimmi" (or heretic)"! Are you kidding me? This is just an example of how this article is being used to further agenda with no regard to accuracy.
  1. Reuben Ahroni, Jewish Emigration from the Yemen, 1951-98: Carpet Without Magic, pp.xi-xii, p.20
  2. The Road to Redemption: The Jews of the Yemen, 1900-1950By Tudor Parfitt p.56

Mitchell Bard

The use of well known propagandist Mitchell Bard as a source is a very bad move for this article. Surely we can do better. Zero 23:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Overlap with Jewish exodus article

Please see discussion at Talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Overlap_with_.22History_of_the_Jews_in....22_articles. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:11, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

The well placed sources for the Arab/Israelite heritage of Yemenite Jews

I'll explain, the first source shows that Yemenite Jews plot next to Saudis and Bedouins. The 2nd link shows that Yemenite Jews form a cluster with their host populations, and the third link shows the Jewish kingdom that existed in Yemen and had many converts. Guy355 (talk) 07:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

  1. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1312/1312.6639.pdf
  2. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/international-genetic-study-traces-jewish-roots-to-ancient-middle-east-1.456676
  3. https://en.wikipedia.org/Himyarite_Kingdom

Those are pictures of non-Yemenite jews

According to the first paragraph, most of the pictured people were not born in Yemen nor did they live in Yemen - thus are not Yemenite jews. Maybe the heading should say something like "Jews of a Yemen descent"? Gil_mo (talk) 19:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Their ethnicity is Yemenite Jewish, therefore the head is fine. Guy355 (talk) 19:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Massacre by dhu nawas

@Dougwaller: I have found the french source but the problem I didn't found the number 22000.--Shrike (talk) 11:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see it either, though my French is crap. That number was I think added by an anon here. We can use a number from another source; better yet a range of values from more than one source. Zero 14:21, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
@Shrike:, @Zero0000: Thanks all. I'm not surprised. I was going to come back to this to try to find something better, but the lawnmower called. And fix Najran also, right? Dougweller (talk) 14:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
A more recent and more extensive French source is here. Zero 15:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
In the Introduction to Irfan Shahid's "Martyrs of Najran" he brings down divergent opinions as to the numbers of the slain. The most reliable account appears to be the letter from Simeon of Bayt Arsham. Requires further consideration and study. As often in cases like this, stories have a tendency of being embellished.Davidbena (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Photo of Man Blowing the Shofar

User:Yobot, I rechecked the information and the correct date on the photo's caption and details should be February 1, 1947. Can I make the change without replacing the photo?Davidbena (talk) 20:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you talking with WP:BOT.--Shrike (talk) 04:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Nephillath Panim - an incorrect External Link

Since there was an incorrect external link (since deleted) concerning the alleged custom of falling down on one's face during the prayer, I have opted to show the references which prove that the external link (since deleted) was inaccurate and misleading:

EXCERPT FROM MAHARITZ's "TIKLAL 'ETZ HAYIM," or YEMENITE PRAYER BOOK (SIDDUR) OF THE BALADI-RITE: 

       (Vol. I, page 74, folio B.  Second Edition of 5731 anno mundi/1971 C.E.)

The practice of falling upon one's face (Nefillath Apayim) directly after standing in prayer in the morning and in the afternoon was always done in Yemen after the manner described in the Siddur (Prayer Book) of Rabbeinu Sa'adia Gaon. So writes Rabbi Yoseph Qafih in his Commentary on Maimonides' Mishne Torah (Hilkoth Tefillah 5:14), as also Rabbi Yoseph Subeiri in his book, "We-yitzbor Yoseph Bar," volume 1, chapter 13, section # 15, page 246. Since synagogues in Yemen were bare of chairs and furniture, the congregation sat upon cushions strewn across the floor against the wall, and when it came to making "Nefillath Apayim," they simply went down into a sitting posture, and then inclined their bodies to their left side, with one's full body weight and pressure being brought to bear on his left knee and thigh, while his right knee was bent over his left. This, as Maharitz describes in the following excerpt, was done while clasping one's left arm with his right. A man's face and head were entirely covered beneath his shawl (talith) while doing this, and held in the bend of his left arm.

"…And when he falls upon his left , let him not fall down upon his hands themselves, but rather opposite his arm. That is, let him clasp left arm with his right, and fall upon his left (cf. book "Or Hayashar"). And know assuredly that there is no difference between Nefillath Apayim on one's left side in the morning and in the afternoon . A man ought always to do so, unlike Rabbi Moshe Iserlische, and this is our custom, as well as what appears to be the opinion of our teacher, the Rabbi, Yoseph Karo, and the expositors of our laws."

המקור

". . . וכשנופל על שמאל לא יפול על ידיו עצמן אלא נגד זרועו דהיינו שיחבק זרוע שמאל בימין ונופל על השמאל (ס' אה"י). ודע שאין חילוק בנפילת פנים על צד שמאל בין בשחרית בין במנחה. לעולם יעשה כן דלא כרמ"א וכן מנהגינו וכן משמעות מהריק"א ופוסקים."

EXCERPT FROM MAHARITZ's Code of Jewish Law, known as "PISQEI MAHARITZ," Vol. I, Hilkoth Nefillath Apayim, item # 2

(Maharitz describes the way Nefillath Apayim was done immediately following the prayer.)

"The emissary of the congregation (Shaliah Sibbur) then sits and bows down. Now the manner of bowing is that he puts his left knee upon the ground, in the way in which he leans, and then bends his right knee over it, in the way in which he crouches, so that he is half-crouching and half-sitting. Likewise, the congregation does like him."

המקור

יושב שליח ציבור ומשתחוה. ואופן ההשתחויה, שיניח ברכו השמאלית על הארץ כדרכה כשהוא מוטה, ומקפל ברכו הימינית עליה כדרכה כשהוא כורע ויהא כחציו כורע וחציו יושב. וכן יעשו הציבור כמותו

I hope these citations will allay all doubts, if there were any.Davidbena (talk) 10:36, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Images

User:PacificWarrior101, User:Davidbena, about Dana International, Yigal Amir, "silversmith", etc.:

  1. Discuss things about the article on the article's talk page and not on user talk pages.
  2. Don't engage in edit warring. Reminder: WP:3RR.
  3. Don't engage in personal attacks.
  4. Don't make assumptions about anybody's morality or sensitivity. For example, don't say that all Yemenite Jews would be offended by anything at least until you actually asked all Yemenite Jews about this. And even if you did ask them, that still won't be the only relevant consideration for writing a Misplaced Pages article.

Such lists are always contentious. The people are not supposed to be positive - they are supposed to be notable. Both Dana International and Yigal Amir are notable. The "silversmith" is a generic person who shouldn't be in the infobox.

As far as my own opinion goes, both Dana International and Yigal Amir can be here. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I will take your advice about where to debate the current issue. As for Igal Amir and Dana International, their photos on the main page of an article which treats on ethnicity is tantamount to putting up an image of a serial killer on an ethnicity page. Or, let's say, Israeli troops shooting at an Arab, on a page which speaks on Israeli ethnicity. There should be a place for common considerations as for what is tactful and what is not.Davidbena (talk) 13:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
User:PacificWarrior101, I have agreed to remove the generic photo of a Yemenite silversmith, in accordance with the advice given to me. My hope, my friend, is that we, too, can reach a compromise before this issue is referred to a party entrusted with resolving disputes. I am only interested in not being offensive, as much as that sounds reasonable and is logical.Davidbena (talk) 13:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
So, what is the thing that makes Mauda and Skaat notable? Participation in the Eurovision song contest, by any coincidence? Isn't a Eurovision song contest winner even more notable by the same measure? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 13:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
User:Amire80, why did you "undo" my photo replacement after suggesting to me that we should not use a generic photo? Isn't Yigael Bashan a popular Yemenite singer worthy of consideration, and one who will not evoke feelings of shame?Davidbena (talk) 14:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
See below. Your argument about "feelings of shame" is weak, and Bashan's notability is not comparable in this context to International's. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Flouting an Ethnic Group

Please consider joining the feedback request service.
An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Davidbena (talk) 14:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC) There is a question about what is considered worthy or not worthy of publishing on a WP article page in terms of photos because of what may or may not be perceived by others as distasteful (bad taste). The editor, User:PacificWarrior101, had posted a Commons photograph of Israeli singer and transgender, Dana International, a photograph which I personally feel shows bad taste and tends to "flout" the dignity and self-respect of the Yemenite Jewish people. I voiced my concerns to the editor about my feelings of repugnancy evoked by the picture on a main article page that treats on ethnicity, and to a large extent, the history of Yemenite Jews. Most Yemenite Jews will feel a sense of shame by seeing this photo of "Dana International" on the page that speaks specifically about them as a people - and who, by the way, are mostly conservative to religious. While I have no personal problems about discussing issues of transgender, here the matter is different. Dana International's photograph on the main page of an article which treats on ethnicity is tantamount to putting up an image of a serial killer on an ethnicity page. Or, let's say, Israeli troops shooting at an Arab, on a page which speaks on Israeli ethnicity. There should be a place for common considerations as for what is tactful and what is not, particularly when the photo in question can be replaced by a more non-controversial image, and one that does not tend to flout the dignity of a particular ethnic group.Davidbena (talk) 14:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

As I wrote above, the whole idea of "representative" images of notable people on top of articles about social groups is rather artificial and contentious to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, these images could be removed from this article and from all other articles about social groups.
But if we are talking about the people in question, then if this page includes images of two other singers from this group who participated in the Eurovision song contest, it doesn't make any sense to exclude a person who won the same contest. The same person incorporates Yemenite culture in some of the songs that she performs and in her clothing style, so she is not just nominally Yemenite.
A claim that "most Yemenite Jews will feel a sense of shame by seeing this photo" is nothing but a baseless and transphobic Argumentum ad populum. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The question is not about inclusion of popular Israeli singers who appeared on a popular TV show, Eurovision, but rather about flouting an ethnic group. The bare and banal truth is that this one photograph evokes a sense of shame to the vast majority of Yemenite Jews. The photo should be replaced by another, since the article treats in general terms about ethnicity and history.Davidbena (talk) 14:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Your argument is irrelevant. Please read the article Argumentum ad populum before you repeat it again. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
No, our argument is not irrelevant. Your article overlooks the simple fact that one just doesn't post a photo that flouts an entire ethnic group, such as (by way of example) posting an image of an Israeli soldier shooting at an Arab child when the main article treats on Israelis. It is the same here. You are using demagoguery in subtle and concealed terms. The photo must be replaced.Davidbena (talk) 14:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Let's use this opportunity to learn what demagoguery is. A demagogue is somebody who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power (Merriam-Webster). I'd say that saying that something evokes a sense of shame to the vast majority of, well, no matter whom is precisely this: making use of popular prejudices. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Amir E. Aharoni, are you wishing to push this photo down the throats of the people who read this article, in hopes that they will become more receptive to transgenders? If so, your empathy for TGs makes you somewhat inconsiderate and cruel towards others who may actually be offended by such a photo, as myself and many others indeed are. Our dispute involves a photo displayed on the main page of an article and which evokes feelings of shame, as if the person who put-up the image wishes to flout the dignity and good character of an entire ethnic group. Most Yemenite Jews are ashamed of the person shown in the image. I am asking that the photo be replaced by a different image. Can you not accommodate such a request for the sake of decency and civility?Davidbena (talk) 17:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
No, I cannot accommodate a request to censor Misplaced Pages because you think that something is indecent. In fact, there is a specific content policy about this: "Misplaced Pages may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so. Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images will always be acceptable to all readers, or that they will adhere to general social or religious norms." (WP:NOTCENSORED).
There could be other reasons to remove that image, but this is certainly not a good one. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
At the moment I have no strong opinion. I will ask that no changes be made until this discussion ends. I would have used RfC myself. Dougweller (talk) 18:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
While it is true that "Misplaced Pages is not censored," and that "some readers and editors may find that they come across images that invoke squeamishness, are in bad taste, or are offensive," this is only true in cases where the photos are being used in articles which treat on human anatomy (e.g. nudity), and/or in articles where there is a direct relation between the subject matter and the image. In our case, this is not so. Rather, the laws of good society dictate to us that we should not wantonly offer affronts or offense to people who may feel "disturbed" by associating a photograph with a certain ethnic group. To stress my point, can you imagine what the backlash would be if you posted a photo of the "Son of Sam" serial killer (David Berkowitz) on the main article Jews? Such a thing would be totally uncalled for, as it is here. Such a photo in such an article would be offensive, just as it is by showing a Transgender (Dana International) in an article which treats purely on ethnicity and history. It is far better to put her photo in a place (article) which treats specifically on Transgenders, so as not to imply that this is the "norm," or that the person's behavior is accepted by the vast majority of good and decent Yemenites; most importantly, so as not to offend.Davidbena (talk) 18:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Keep the image — Per the Image Use Policy "images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject." If there were no discussion in the text of this article about these folks other than their history, I might fall the other way (while at the same time noting that if material about the modern and current status and activities and achievements were to be subsequently added that my opinion might well change to what it is now), but Ms. International is specifically mentioned in the text of the article and including her picture clearly falls within the threshold requirement for image inclusion. The purposes of the gallery in the {{Infobox ethnic group}} are not defined in the infobox documentation and, therefore, fall back to the principles announced in the general image use policy. While such a gallery probably ought to, on common logic, contain a group of representative individuals, what is representative must for encyclopedic purposes represent fact, not fantasy driven by pride, fear of embarrassment, or moral prejudice. While the primary community of these folks may wish for one or more of those reasons that individuals such as Ms. International did not exist or, if they do, would keep their ethnicity to themselves so as not to embarrass the community, the fact is the current, modern population which makes up that ethnic group not only includes Ms. International but Ms. International's history and ethnicity are well-established in a manner which makes them notable. On the other hand, as noted in the Muhammad images case, strong objections by a population to images due to religious or moral objections are not to be merely dismissed with a wave of the NOTCENSORED wand. However, I would note, first, Davidbena has not offered any particular evidence to support those claims in this case but is making them from his own personal experience and — without expressing any doubt whatsoever that David believes what he is saying — it may well be that those objections are not, in fact, either so widespread, uniform, or strongly felt among this community as he claims (or as is generally presumed or discussed among the community). And, second, I would remind everyone that once the RFC on the Muhammad images case was held that the principles announced in the Arbcom case were not equally adopted by the community as a whole (especially the Principle of Least Astonishment, which Arbcom at least mentioned but which the community largely failed to implement or endorse). Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Obviously, you wouldn't say such things had they posted a photo of the "Son of Sam" serial killer (David Berkowitz) on the main article Jews? You see, there is something inherently wrong about posting images that conjure up wrong impressions about people as a whole.Davidbena (talk) 18:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
TransporterMan thanks for the thoughtful response and the references to policy.
David indeed doesn't offer any evidence that there is something especially wrong about having a transgender person as one of the people who represent Yemenite Jews except his own statements. Negative sentiment against transsexuality exists in many societies and I have no reason to think that Yemenite Jews are special in this regard, so I cannot see any potential special astonishment.
Dana International represents several other things except being a transgender person - she is an internationally successful pop singer, and she incorporates Yemenite cultural motives into her performances. Music is an important part of Jewish Yemenite culture; indeed, all the Israeli Eurovision winners happen to be Yemenites (the other two are Yizhar Cohen and Gali Atari). I would argue that at this point in time Dana International happens to be the most internationally notable of the three, although I don't have solid proof for that - it's just my impression.
In any case, removing Dana International is a crystal clear case of discrimination that is based on nothing but sexual identity. I'm not even saying this to protect trans people; it simply goes completely against notability principles. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 18:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
@Davidbena: But you're wrong. I very well might say such things if Berkowitz was deemed to be important enough to be dealt with in that article. Moreover, I note that you failed to respond to the following argument raised by PacificWarrior101 at his/her talk page:

Look at the article about Georgians and it shows Joseph Stalin on their infobox and look at the Austrians article it shows a picture of Adolf Hitler and there are obviously people probably complaining about how ruthless they were, because they were.

Would you care to do so? (One response is that every Misplaced Pages article stands on its own and what's done in one article doesn't mean that it need be done in another. While that's true, we're talking about general principles here, not "you must do this here because it's done there.") Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
The photo is being objected to because it, needlessly, offends many, besides having very little to do with the article's topic. In short, it does more damage than good. Transgender issues should be discussed in its proper place, viz. "Transgenders." A picture should not be used to flout the decency of an entire ethnic group.Davidbena (talk) 19:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
"...flout the decency of an entire ethnic group." Do you even hear yourself? --NeilN 20:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I have another article you may be interested in. Ghetto. --NeilN 4:03 pm, Today (UTC−4)
NeilN The collage is supposed to give a representation of a the Yemenite people. I think that people like Eyal Golan, who recently was accused of sleeping with a minor and this International person, should be removed because they are controversial. Note that on the discussion pages of other collages this principle has been used before, and controversial people were removed or simply not added. By the way, the collage is 3x4, which is rather large, and could easily be 3x3. Debresser (talk) 20:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
As with Harel Skaat, who is gay, there's nothing in International's article to indicate she is controversial. So why the double standard? --NeilN 20:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

For a removal reason that's actually rooted in content, International's article has her saying, "I don’t believe in any religion, so I’m here as an Israeli, not as a Jew." You could argue this makes her a less than ideal representative of the group. --NeilN 21:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

In answer to User:PacificWarrior101, actually, there is nothing uncouth about showing a photo of Adolf Hitler in an article which speaks about WWII; or of Joseph Stalin during and after the Bolshevik revolution. These are all pertinent. However, where an article is primarily concerned with ethnicity, and one shows the "bad sad of society" - whether sexual perverts or murderers or notorious thieves, it is all one and the same, namely, it tends to show disrespect to the ethnic group in question. The controversy here lies in what is considered disrespectful, in my humble opinion.Davidbena (talk) 21:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Categories: