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::::::I agree that a category description can help in some cases, and would help in these. I disagree with the blanket position that if the semantics of a category are open to more than one interpretation—some of which could border on pushing the feature to insignificance—then that automatically means that the category doesn't need to exist. As stated, the chosen name doesn't always bear the entire weight of the categories value—sometimes names are selected to be reasonably brief rather than fully expository on the topic. This happens all the time. (And just to be clear, I didn't "create" the designations that were used—I adopted them from sources which use them.) But here, those who object to the category seem to me to be arguing that the category should not exist at all in any form, not that the category names need reworking. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC) ::::::I agree that a category description can help in some cases, and would help in these. I disagree with the blanket position that if the semantics of a category are open to more than one interpretation—some of which could border on pushing the feature to insignificance—then that automatically means that the category doesn't need to exist. As stated, the chosen name doesn't always bear the entire weight of the categories value—sometimes names are selected to be reasonably brief rather than fully expository on the topic. This happens all the time. (And just to be clear, I didn't "create" the designations that were used—I adopted them from sources which use them.) But here, those who object to the category seem to me to be arguing that the category should not exist at all in any form, not that the category names need reworking. ] <sup>]</sup> 23:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
:::::::*'''Against'''. I agree with the statement that these categories should not exist at all... on Misplaced Pages. The media is free to refer to Roberts as a Republican Chief Justice, and people who read to the bottom of this talk page would understand the nuance, but I fear that a general audience would assume that this represented an official designation. I respect that Good Ol'factory is not the one making the distinction, but my view is that just because the media (including Black's) has assigned a party based on how a justice was appointed, how s/he voted in elections, or how s/he ruled from the bench, doesn't make it worthy of inclusion. ] (]) 15:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC) :::::::*'''Against'''. I agree with the statement that these categories should not exist at all... on Misplaced Pages. The media is free to refer to Roberts as a Republican Chief Justice, and people who read to the bottom of this talk page would understand the nuance, but I fear that a general audience would assume that this represented an official designation. I respect that Good Ol'factory is not the one making the distinction, but my view is that just because the media (including Black's) has assigned a party based on how a justice was appointed, how s/he voted in elections, or how s/he ruled from the bench, doesn't make it worthy of inclusion. ] (]) 15:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. I feel that there has been some good input on this above, and based on what has been said, I am happy to formally nominate the categories for deletion. I will link the ] to this discussion, but those who commented here please feel free to comment again and lodge your "formal !vote" in the discussion. The discussion is ''']'''. ] <sup>]</sup> 01:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)


== Comment on the WikiProject X proposal == == Comment on the WikiProject X proposal ==

Revision as of 01:56, 2 October 2014

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Proposed changes at Wong Kim Ark

Hi. A discussion has started at United States v. Wong Kim Ark (one of our Featured Articles) regarding how the article should treat the question of birthright citizenship for US-born children of illegal aliens. Interested people might wish to go have a look and get involved. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:32, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Red links at List of United States Supreme Court cases involving the First Amendment

Generally speaking, lists such as the list of United States Supreme Court cases involving the First Amendment should not contain red links: if the entry is not notable enough to have a Wiki article, it is not notable enough to be included. On the other hand, what belongs on this list is pretty well defined, and it would be incorrect to purge it out of hand. So, I would like to propose creating the missing articles, with a deadline set to de-wikify rather than delete any remaining red links. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 20:17, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

You're assuming incorrectly that all notable SCOTUS cases already have articles. Long standing consensus is that all SCOTUS cases that generated an opinion of the Court (at least in the modern era) are notable (in contrast to the thousands per year disposed of by summary order). So the redlinks stay, without a deadline, both as necessary to the list's topic and as a guide for editors as to what articles remain to be created. postdlf (talk) 21:49, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
In addition to what Postdlf said, WP:Redlink states: "Red links are frequently present in lists and sometimes in disambiguation pages or templates." That indicates that lists do commonly contain redlinks. GregJackP Boomer! 22:13, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
What I am proposing is that we write those articles. Why this hostility? TechBear | Talk | Contributions 22:58, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
"Hostility"? No, we're just telling you not to remove the redlinks by de-wikifying them. We're certainly not going to discourage you from creating articles. postdlf (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
What Postdlf said. No hostility was meant. Just don't de-link them. GregJackP Boomer! 01:26, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

RfC on Bluebook citation style

For anyone that might be interested, there is a Request for Comment on the appropriateness of the Bluebook citation style for Misplaced Pages articles at Photography is Not a Crime. Regards, GregJackP Boomer! 07:41, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Merging or Clarifying the Case Law and Lawsuit Categories

I started a discussion about the case law and lawsuits category trees in the WikiProject Law page. Your input for this conversation would be welcome. Thanks. RevelationDirect (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Institute for Justice

I recently updated and expanded the Misplaced Pages article on the Institute for Justice, the public advocacy law firm that litigated Kelo v. City of New London and four other cases at the Supreme Court. I am not an attorney, and I would appreciate any review and comments from your perspective. The Institute for Justice is similar to the ACLU, but with a libertarian philosophy. This article is not currently a part of this WikiProject, but I think it would fit here. Thanks- James Cage (talk) 02:22, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Salazar v. Ramah Navajo Chapter peer review

Salazar v. Ramah Navajo Chapter is listed for peer review at Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Salazar v. Ramah Navajo Chapter/archive1. I would appreciate it if any of you would take a look at it and comment (if you have the time). Thanks, GregJackP Boomer! 19:38, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Inactive threads and notifications to since closed discussions

  1. There are several inactive threads on this page.
  2. Some have had no replies for months, even almost a year.
  3. They are cluttering up this page.
  4. This makes it more difficult for others to respond to more important threads.
  5. I tried archiving some, one by one, that were inactive, for example notices of FAC discussions or deletion discussions for pages that were since closed.
  6. This was summarily reverted for all edits together, instead of picking particular threads that were still active to place back on this page.
  7. I feel that revert was not constructive.
  8. I propose that inactive threads that have not been responded to, and threads notifying users of discussions elsewhere that have since been closed, should be archived.

Thank you,

— Cirt (talk) 02:41, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Note: Revert and post to my user talk page by MZMcBride, at DIFF followed by DIFF. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 02:49, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
MZMcBride has a valid point; automated archival is preferable. Currently, the bot settings on this page will archive threads after a year of inactivity. That seems overly long to me; what do others think would be a reasonable length of time before archiving something? — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 02:56, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
I think one year is way too long, Richwales. Three months is better. However, manual archival should not be forbidden. It should be permitted, for example, for threads that notify users of discussions which have since been closed and are therefore irrelevant. Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 03:07, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Hi. This is a pretty slow-moving talk page and I think encouraging discussion is a good thing. For example, your first archival here archived an important discussion about standardizing page leads. It had a relatively recent comment (from June), so the bot has appropriately not archived it, as instructed. If a thread doesn't have any activity for a year, it'll get archived by one of the archive bots. However we're not drowning in discussion here and there's no deadline for action. :-) Plus I've generally found that people involved with the law usually move on much slower timelines. Discussions spanning over weeks or months aren't necessarily bad, especially now that we can ping users.
I don't have a problem with manually archiving truly resolved threads (such as old notifications), though it'll probably make the archives more difficult to read as they'll become non-linear. That concern is probably not worth worrying about, though. Ongoing discussions, even if they haven't been touched in the past few months, are still relevant to the work we're doing here. Archiving them prematurely just creates more work later to re-establish a dialogue about what we want to do.
Thoughts? --MZMcBride (talk) 03:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
MZMcBride, I would like to continue to use the archival tool to archive threads one at a time that deal with issues that have since become irrelevant, such as referring to discussions which have since been closed elsewhere, such as closed FAC discussions. — Cirt (talk) 03:27, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
For one-off requests, I think using that tool here is fine. I'd rather not see anyone making many needless consecutive edits here, however. (Useful consecutive editing is fine, of course!) I'll archive the threads that look dead to me manually in a minute. --MZMcBride (talk) 03:34, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Okay, thank you. I do think this particular talk page was getting a bit stale. Long big ole' talk pages discourage users from active participation. :( — Cirt (talk) 03:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Update: I've used the tool to archive some threads. I only archived threads this time that refer to closed discussions. Thank you, MZMcBride, for your understanding of my usage of the tool, for this particular purpose! Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 03:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to User Study

Would you be interested in participating in a user study? We are a team at University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within a Misplaced Pages community. We are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visualization tool. All you need to do is to prepare for your laptop/desktop, web camera, and speaker for video communication with Google Hangout. We will provide you with a Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 01:20, 23 February 2014 (UTC).

Susan B. Anthony List v. Driehaus

I would like to spin off most of Susan_B._Anthony_List#Driehaus_political_ad_litigation into another article, which I'd like to title, Susan B. Anthony List v. Driehaus. This is going to be argued later this month at SCOTUS, and could have consequences for political speech far beyond the parties. P.J. O'Rourke has gotten involved as an amicus and filed a very funny brief. What do you think? Bearian (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea. I went looking for the article the other day to find out more and to note the upcoming oral argument, and was surprised it didn't exist yet.
I find Ohio AG Mike DeWine's position interesting; his office has filed, in his name, a brief defending the statute, in its capacity defending the Ohio Election Commission. DeWine himself, and in his office's name, has also filed a brief opposing the statute, drafted by pro bono attorneys from the West Virginia University College of Law, with an ethical wall between himself and all of his staff on the defending brief.
BTW, for anyone else interested, (all?) briefs are here, including the Ohio AG briefs and O'Rourke's brief referred to above. TJRC (talk) 22:25, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
O'Rourke's brief is freaking hilarious! I can smell DYK! Bearian (talk) 23:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride 2014

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride 2014, a campaign to create and improve LGBT-related content at Misplaced Pages and its sister projects. The campaign will take place throughout the month of June, culminating with a multinational edit-a-thon on June 21. Meetups are being held in some cities, or you can participate remotely. All constructive edits are welcome in order to contribute to Misplaced Pages's mission of providing quality, accurate information. Articles within Category:LGBT in the Americas may be of particular interest. You can also upload LGBT-related images by participating in Wikimedia Commons' LGBT-related photo challenge. You are encouraged to share the results of your work here. Happy editing! --Another Believer (Talk) 20:55, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

SCOTUS articles needing some attention

(I posted this at WikiProject_Law, where it was pointed out that this would be a better venue.)


I'm working on a CCI and see a few articles involving SCOTUS cases. I ran the copyright question for one Follett v. Town of McCormick by user:Newyorkbrad, because I wasn't sure whether the material coming from the Findlaw reference was original by Findlaw (which would be a problem) or simply material copied from the case (which should be public domain). While I can use his answer to help me with some of the others, I note some other concerns, and I am hoping there is someone interested in articles about Supreme Court cases who might want to do a little article improvement.

I realize wikiprojects often design their own standard formats for articles, but I think a general rule applying everywhere is that the lead is supposed to summarize material in the body. In each of these articles, I think this is not done, and in my opinion is not a trivial omission. The lead states the Supreme Court conclusion but the body typically does not, and further, I see nothing indicating the reasoning for the decision, which I would think should be a fairly important piece of information.

In at least one case, there is no reference, so some help in adding a reference would be appreciated.

Some of the cases are:

My guess is that the editor was using a cookie-cutter approach, not necessarily bad if the format is sufficiently robust, but many seem to be lacking important aspects.

My narrow concern is to make sure there are no copyright issues, (so if you see any, please ping me so I can address them) but I'm also hoping that some member of this Wikiproject will want to beef up some of these articles.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:05, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Per curiam Links in SCOTUS-list Template

Is there any way in the SCOTUS-list template to link to a section of a term's per curiam opinion page for a case which does not have or warrant its own standalone page? For example, on the 2013 opinions page, many opinions have red links, but they have sections on the 2013 per curiam opinions page. I see Ford Motor Co. v. United States links automatically through a redirect, but, directly above it, Stanton v. Sims does not even though it's right above it on the per curiam page. Aaronjbaylis (talk) 12:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

As the exisitng links show, you can redirect to a specific section. I just created one for Stanton. postdlf (talk) 12:52, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Redirects are a bit annoying to create and edit, but a link such as <https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Stanton_v._Sims&action=edit> should show the basic idea. --MZMcBride (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject U.S. Supreme Court Cases At Wikimania 2014

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

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AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion

There is currently a discussion at Talk:AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion#Harder to file class actions about whether or not the article has appropriate reliable references for including this sentence at the end of the lead section: "By permitting contracts that exclude class action arbitration, the high court's decision will make it much harder for consumers to file class action lawsuits." Interested editors are encouraged to contribute their opinions there. Thanks. — Mudwater 11:48, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

FA review for Sonia Sotomayor

This page is currently at GA since 2009 which was well-written then but lacking a Supreme Court section to justify an FA nomination. Sotomayor now has 5 years experience on the Court and 3 new books on the Roberts Court have added new light to her full biography. During the past month a new Supreme Court section has been written for the article, and all 300 references in the article have been brought up to date as to link status. Other users have already started assisting with other refinements. Welcome to all comments and critiques either to the Sotomayor Talk page or my Talk page. LawrencePrincipe (talk) 01:08, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Category:United States Supreme Court justices by party

An editor has recently created this category scheme. We discussed it briefly on his talk page, from which I repost the thread below for wider input. postdlf (talk) 15:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Not a good idea. The office itself is legally nonpartisan, and we already categorize by the nominating president, whose political orientation the justices may satisfy or frustrate in their later jurisprudence. So this scheme can only be confusing if not misleading. postdlf (talk) 00:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

It's all very well documented by reliable sources. Even Black's Law Dictionary indicates the party of each justice in its Time Chart of the court. Presidents have appointed justices from parties different from their own, so it's not quite the same thing as categorizing by appointing president. I don't think it's any more confusing or misleading than categorizing senators of governors by party: the political stances of the parties have changed quite a bit over time, and politically, a Democrat from the 1850s is not the same as a Democrat from the 2010s. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't categorize by party, IMO. Good Ol’factory 00:30, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Let me put another way, there are justices who were appointed by Republican presidents, there are justices who vote Republican, and there are justices whose decisions Republicans tend more to like. Any of those three may coincide in one justice. But there's no such thing as a "Republican Party United States Supreme Court justice". Senators are actually elected on a party's ticket and then caucus with party leadership, so the comparison is completely inapt. Another issue is that this is yet another potential scheme for ghettoizing SCOTUS justices if someone decides the parent category is "redundant" with the party one. postdlf (talk) 00:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I understand the nuances, but the sources do this division all of time. That doesn't mean it's a shorthand for figuring out what "kind" of justice the person was or who liked their decisions. It doesn't ghettoize because all the articles are left in the parent category, which is the normal practice of avoiding ghettoization concerns. We don't need to avoid subcategorization altogether to avoid ghettoization. Good Ol’factory 00:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I've given it some thought. I wouldn't object to a nomination for deletion so that we can get broader input on this. (Of course, it doesn't matter whether or not I would object to a nomination, as it could be done regardless—but what I'm saying is that I think it would be useful to get other views on this, and if there is consensus that it is a bad categorization, I can go along with that and would understand why users would feel that way.) Good Ol’factory 22:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Against. I get what Good Ol’factory is saying, but on balance I think it's a bad idea. The key point is as Postdlf says: There is no such thing as this category is assigning. Just because some sources make this association doesn't mean we should. You could also create categories for Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff by party, but there is no such thing as that either. Party-based categories should be restricted to ones where it is an essential part of the position, such as running in a party primary or being elected on a party line or caucusing with a party once in office. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:54, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I see the nuances. Former President Taft had an unambiguous party. Justice Stevens' supposed Republicanism seems inconsequential, and the only mention we have of it is where he slyly declines to confirm he still belongs to that party. That said, that nuances are lost in a categorization scheme doesn't mean categories won't aid the reader, and there are enough intersections between law and politics to make me more interested in a Justice's party than I would be in J. K. Rowling's partisan identification. The other issue is, as Good Olfactory points out, whether we've got some reliable sources, and Black's clearly qualifies (I wonder what they say about Stevens?).

In the above spirit, I "wouldn't object" to a CFD. Some input from the regulars that grok (deeply understand) wiki's categorization scheme may help. But somebody who actually wants these deleted ought to make the nom. Since I'm pretty inactive, I'd request they link to or cross-post this discussion.--Chaser (talk) 02:01, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Black's lists Stevens as a Republican. (The only justice's party for which Black's is even someone ambiguous about is Brandeis: it lists him as a Republican, then in a footnote quotes Henry Abraham's statement: "Many—and with some justice—consider Brandeis a Democrat; however, he was in fact a registered Republican when nominated.") Good Ol’factory 03:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
But that's to say that Stevens was a Republican, and also a U.S. Supreme Court justice. Not that he was a Republican U.S. Supreme Court justice. The problem is the intersection and what it wrongfully implies. postdlf (talk) 04:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the distinction is a terribly meaningful one, unless one is trying to parse something out of the phrase that's not there. If he was a Republican and a Supreme Court justice, it's probably fair to most observers to call him a Republican Supreme Court justice. (Indeed, the phrase "Republican Supreme Court justice" gets quite a number of g-hits. It's certainly not an obscure phrasing or a neologism.) I don't think stating that necessarily implies anything as to how he voted or wrote on the court. It just means he was one of the several Supreme Court justices that were registered Republicans. That said, I can understand how this is different than categorizing politicians who run as a member of a particular party and when elected caucus with other members of that party. Good Ol’factory 04:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Agree with Postdlf again. This category makes it sound like the party is choosing and nominating them to the court. When really what the category should be called is something like Category:United States Supreme Court justices who had some kind of association with the Republican Party prior to being nominated. And when the semantics of a category are that weak, it doesn't really need to exist. Wasted Time R (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, that's one interpretation, but it's not how the designation is being used in sources that I see using them, anyway. Good Ol’factory 10:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
But that's the designation you created in these categories. You have the party identification modifying or qualifying the position. postdlf (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think the name of the category has to carry all the weight of the meaning associated with the category. Category pages frequently have explanatory text at the top of them. This seems like one where that would be a good idea.
I personally think that, as long as a reliable source, especially a highly reliable source like Black's, draws this line, it's acceptable -- and useful -- for Misplaced Pages to do so. TJRC (talk) 21:39, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree that a category description can help in some cases, and would help in these. I disagree with the blanket position that if the semantics of a category are open to more than one interpretation—some of which could border on pushing the feature to insignificance—then that automatically means that the category doesn't need to exist. As stated, the chosen name doesn't always bear the entire weight of the categories value—sometimes names are selected to be reasonably brief rather than fully expository on the topic. This happens all the time. (And just to be clear, I didn't "create" the designations that were used—I adopted them from sources which use them.) But here, those who object to the category seem to me to be arguing that the category should not exist at all in any form, not that the category names need reworking. Good Ol’factory 23:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Against. I agree with the statement that these categories should not exist at all... on Misplaced Pages. The media is free to refer to Roberts as a Republican Chief Justice, and people who read to the bottom of this talk page would understand the nuance, but I fear that a general audience would assume that this represented an official designation. I respect that Good Ol'factory is not the one making the distinction, but my view is that just because the media (including Black's) has assigned a party based on how a justice was appointed, how s/he voted in elections, or how s/he ruled from the bench, doesn't make it worthy of inclusion. Mjforbes666 (talk) 15:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. I feel that there has been some good input on this above, and based on what has been said, I am happy to formally nominate the categories for deletion. I will link the CFD to this discussion, but those who commented here please feel free to comment again and lodge your "formal !vote" in the discussion. The discussion is HERE. Good Ol’factory 01:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Misplaced Pages struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

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