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Korean influence on Japanese culture

Korean influence on Japanese culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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As already thoroughly demonstrated on the talk page, the article is a WP:POVFORK of a whole bunch of better articles on Japanese culture that may or may not mention hypothetical Korean connections for the topics mentioned. It has stitched together a bunch of sources that either (1) present Korean connection as one (the less likely?) of several possible theories of a cultural artifact's origins, (2) are written by Korean nationalists with no training in Japanese culture, or (3) don't mention "Korean influence" at all, but refer to a Japanese-born and Japanese-raised originator, whose remote ancestors might have immigrated from the Korean Peninsula. The topics Chinese influence on Japanese culture, European influence on Japanese culture and United States influence on Japanese culture are almost certainly more notable, but we don't have articles on those topics -- or, for that matter, any other articles with titles in the form "<Country Y> influence on the culture of <Country X>" -- because such articles by definition would violate WP:WEIGHT, WP:SYNTH, WP:NPOV and more. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:45, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 October 4. —cyberbot I _Online 08:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Keep We have other articles of this sort and examples include Olmec influences on Mesoamerican cultures, European influence in Afghanistan, Spanish influence on Filipino culture, Islamic influences on Western art. In this case, there's an entire book on the topic and so the topic is notable. The worst case would be merger to another page such as History of Japan–Korea relations and so there's no case for deletion. Andrew (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

None of those articles are comparable, since they are not in the form "<Modern nation-state that didn't exist yet during the relevant time period> influence on the culture of <Other modern nation-state that didn't exist yet during the relevant time period>". The more accurate name for 90% of this material would be "Baekje influence on late-Yayoi culture". Many of your examples don't include the relevant word "culture", as well, and please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. As to the book: have you read it? It's author has no visible credentials in Japanese studies, the publisher is a specialist in English-language travel guides on South Korea, the book almost certainly fails WP:RS, and a lot of it is downright offensive to boot. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Plus, books with "hidden history" in their subtitle tend to be WP:FRINGE, and WP:SPAs who cite such books -- including the article's creator and several later contributors -- tend to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• That source seems fine and, in any case, is not the only one out there. I browse a little and soon find this — an account of the influence of the Paekche of Korea on Japan. This work is published by a university press and so demonstrates and further confirms the notability and the scholarly nature of the topic. Our corresponding article references the page in question in its section Baekje#Relations_with_Japan, giving it as a main article. This demonstrates that the page in question is interwoven with our other content and is not some fringe fork as you seem to suppose. As for righting great wrongs, you seem to be the one on a mission here as your sandbox indicates you've been grinding this axe for months now. Andrew (talk) 16:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The issue is not whether any of the content on this page is true, sourced, or whatever. It's about balance: the "topic" is notionally as vast as my example below of France and England, and there is thus no coherence between bits about the Baekje arts and bits about writers whose ancestors were or might have been from Korea, and even less relevance of the bit about Jindai moji. Never mind "influence", why not have an article of "American superiority over the British" -- it could list all sorts of things (wasn't there a yacht race with rather one-side results), a few battles, and everything could be true, referenced, and even in native level English. But it would not be a good article. Imaginatorium (talk) 18:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

@user:Andrew Davidson: I'm sorry, but where did Jinwung Kim (the author of the second book you cite) gain his knowledge of Japanese history? I ask, because the paragraph you link to appears to be loaded with errors: (1) if any legit scholars think the Soga clan were immigrants from Baekje, I have yet to read their work (WP:FRINGE) -- the Soga were in fact active in Japan long before the great Baekje immigration of 660; (2) "Soga Noumako" is not a possible name-reconstruction -- his given name was "Umako"; (3) no one says "Asuka-ji"; (4) what's with the scare quotes around "Emperor" Kanmu? Also, the equation of the extinct Baekje civilization (whose educated populace by and fled to Japan) with modern-day Korea is extremely problematic, since they had their own (likely unrelated) language, etc. It seems pretty obvious that this is a WP:TERTIARY source reliant on other, better sources that do not support your claims.

Also, nice personal attack on my sandbox speculation about the obvious sockpuppetry on the part of Korean-nationalist SPAs (sockpuppetry that has been observed by others such as User:Canterbury Tail on ANI last Christmas Eve). I'm just trying to analyze as much of the information as is available to me to work through what's clearky a massive violation of WP:SOCK that has been going on for years. How about instead of rooting around in my user space you actually read the commentary I provided on the article's talk page clearly demonstrating the disastrous abuse of sources in the article.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Jinwung Kim is a Professor of History and seems to be a reputable academic. As for sockpuppets, notice that, when you posted your commentary on the article's talk page, nobody, but nobody, responded. Andrew (talk) 07:00, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

"Professor of History" doesn't help much. It's like saying someone who is a "Professor of Science" is automatically a reliable source on the vertebrate eye, when their qualifications are in fact all in nuclear physics. However, Googling his name and the phrase you provided I was able to find his "Author Bio" on the publisher's website. I'm guessing that's what you read, too: what it actually says is "Jinwung Kim is Professor of History at Kyungpook National University in Taegu, South Korea. He has published widely on South Korean–U.S. relations, with a particular focus on South Korean perceptions of the United States." You cleverly chose to omit the area of history he specializes in, since the area under discussion in the article -- and the area in which he made the somewhat embarrassing mistakes I already pointed out -- concerns a different country, over 1,000 years before either South Korea or the United States even existed! Anyway, being published by a university press doesn't necessarily mean the book is an even-handed, scholarly source. I read through most of the GBooks preview: there were no inline citations, and scant notes (I couldn't read the notes since they were not on the same page). This implies that it is meant for a general audience, like most of Bart Ehrman's books (all of which come from Oxford University Press). Nothing wrong with that, but it means we can't easily track his sources and find out why he thinks that "the Soga clan were immigrants from Baekje" is not only an obscure theory he ascribes to but an established fact. It also makes the polemical, somewhat anti-Japanese nature of every part of the book that might be relevant to this discussion (again, what's with the scare-quotes??) problematic for its use as a source anywhere on Misplaced Pages, especially as a source to demonstrate that we can rewrite this article to not be as polemical and anti-Japanese as it already is. Also "seems to be a reputable academic" -- what are you basing that on? That he holds a teaching position in an unrelated field in a Korean university? That an American university's publishing department published a general-audience book by him in that same unrelated field?

And besides, you have not yet touched on the main argument for deletion. The page is a POVFORK, and will never be anything more. Neither I nor anyone else has proposed a GNG rationale for deletion, so your digging up obscure, semi-reliable sources will not help.

As for sockpuppetry: How does the lack of a response to my detailed talk page analysis affect that? They don't usually use talk pages, and are more accustomed to edit-warring. Plus, a lot of those accounts seem to have a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, so maybe, at the time, they thought of me as an "ally" who did them a "favour" by getting their "opponent" blocked? (Note that this user actually got himself blocked, but still...) And if in fact all of the dozens and dozens of single-purpose accounts all editing in the same area were actually different people independently patrolling the area, don't you think at least one of them would have seen my post and responded? If anything (I don't actually believe this, though) the lack of a response is an argument for sockpuppetry having taken place.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:13, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 17:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• No preference, but Japanese culture might be a better location for some of this. The current article has grammar issues throughout, and does seem to have a severe slant toward presenting Korean culture as influencing practically everything in Japan without presenting dissenting academic opinions and research. If this article is not deleted, it will definitely need a serious overhaul, and shepherding from editors willing to work together and put any nationalism aside in that effort. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:37, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

• Delete: This is of no real value to English-speaking readers. Most importantly, there is no need for generic articles "Influence of France on English culture" (to give an example closer to (my) home), because such influence is general, all-pervasive, and obvious. In this specific case, of course, both Korea and Japan went through many centuries under the influence of Chinese civilisation, and Korea is geographically in the middle, so obviously it is possible to make a hodge-podge list of "connections", but this does not an encyclopaedia article make. Imaginatorium (talk) 05:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Keep There's more than enough scholarship on this subject to make an article. Even the Kyoto Cultural Museum noted that "In seeking the source of Japan’s ancient culture many will look to China, but the quest will finally lead to Korea, where China’s advanced culture was accepted and assimilated. In actuality, the people who crossed the sea were the people of the Korea Peninsula and their culture was the Korean culture." What is very glaring about the nominator's source criticism is that he seems to admit that he's hasn't actually read the scholarship he is criticizing. He writes at length about why sources like Covell, Mitchell, and Farris should not be included in the article, but doesn't acknowledge he has ever actually read the books. This is just quibbling with sources and not a legitimate reason to delete the article. Farris' book, for instance, notes that "Together South Korean and Japanese archaeologists have been able to show that from the late fourth through the late seventh centuries Korean-borne continental ideas, technologies, and materials streamed into the archipelago. Influence from the peninsula hit peaks in the mid-fifth, mid-sixth, and late seventh centuries and played a crucial role in population growth, economic and cultural development, and the rise of a centralized Yamato state." The nominator says that "there is no Chinese influence on Japanese culture and there never will be, because Chinese nationalists are apparently not insecure enough that they need to go onto English Misplaced Pages and denigrate another country's culture". Statements like this show how wrong-headed an attempt to delete this article would be. First of all, someone should write an article about Chinese influence on Japanese culture because that is also an important subject, but secondly, there is no historian today who doesn't acknowledge the massive influence people from the Korean peninsula had on Japan and that has nothing to do with appeasing the so-called "insecurities" of the Korean people. William Wayne Farris, the Kyoto Cultural Museum, and all the other scholars who have written extensively on this subject are of course not inspired by Korean nationalism, they're just acknowledging the fact that Korea has played a tremendous role in shaping Japanese politics, culture, and society, something definitely noteworthy enough to have a Misplaced Pages article.CurtisNaito (talk) 06:36, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

(1) Curtis, I'm noticing a pattern here. So far, you and I have interacted four times on Misplaced Pages (including this time). On all four occasions, I stated that an article violated WP:SYNTH, and on all four occasions you opposed me on that point. On all three previous occasions, consensus worked out on my side in the discussion. Because I was right. Last time, you were told by more than one user that if you were actively trying to violate WP:NOR or just couldn't tell that you were engaging in OR, you would probably need to be either banned or blocked. You managed to avoid this result last time, but I find it hard to believe you would come here and defend the same type of OR as you did there, given the potential consequences for you. Both User:Nishidani and I have pointed this out to you, and if I recall correctly User:Sturmgewehr88 and User:Curly Turkey basically agreed. Now, given that in 100% of your four separate interactions with me you have engaged in SYNTH (in three cases in the service of a modern political agenda), what are the odds that 100% of your other edits have been disruptive in this manner?

(2) Regarding the scholars you name: the authors of the article also clearly have not read most of the sources, since they clearly contradict each other, contradict the material in the article, or are on completely unrelated topics and do not mention Korea at all! Clearly you did not read my long post with enough care: Covell is not a scholar, and you have not demonstrated that he had any qualifications in Japanese studies. You have not read Mitchell either, and so you cannot be right in your assertion that my argument that, given how he is cited in the article, he probably does not back up the text to which he is attached. (I've grown accustomed to this kind of argument from you.) You have not read Farris, either, but the more important point is that the statement to which Farris is attached in the article has nothing to do with "Japanese culture" (it is about metal-working techniques used in the Yayoi state 2,000 years ago). Also, given that the statement violates WP:WEASEL with the word "essentially", we cannot assume Farris actually backs it up; if "essentially" is actually his word and not an "interpretation" by Wikipedians, then does he mean "probably" (60~80%)? If so, then the material should be added to the relevant article, and given the proper context; its being stated as fact, in Misplaced Pages's voice, with no in-line reference to Farris, violates WP:POVFORK.

(3)Regarding the rest of your post: per WP:V, naming institutions and scholars who have written a large volume of work, even providing quotes, without actually giving page numbers, links, publication titles, etc. is pretty useless. And even all the sources in the world won't help this article, since neither my deletion rationale nor those of the other contributors is based on WP:GNG. This article is a WP:POVFORK, and trying to place the WP:BURDEN on me to create the hundreds of other articles (Irish influence on British culture, anyone? Mexican influence on American culture? North Sudanese influence on South Sudanese culture!?) necessary to provide balance is ridiculous. All of those other articles would need to rely just as much on the OR/SYNTH that you know and love so well, Curtis, as this one. Or maybe you don't sincerely believe those hundreds of articles should be made, and are just trying to goad others into violating WP:POINT. Please stop this kind of disruptive behaviour, or you will be blocked. And on that point...

(4) I notice that in all but the first of my four interactions with you, you have shown up at an article you have never edited before, and opposed me with an extremely weak rationale. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen you edit an article on ancient Japanese history, except when you showed up to revert me. I'm beginning to think that you have been following my edits, and showing up to revert me when I edit an area of which you have some knowledge and it seems to you that my position is weak. Per WP:AGF, I'll give you until your fifth infraction on this point, but your constant violations of WP:NOR will probably get you in trouble before that. I would also like to politely ask you to withdraw the above no-rationale, bad-faith oppose !vote per WP:REVENGE and WP:POINT.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:13, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Delete Andrew Davidson and Curtis Naito raised a book written by Covell as an evidence of the legitimacy of this article. However the book is a Self-published source and two book reviewers concluded the book is hardly academic.

1. The book by Covell is a Self-published source.

• The publisher "Hollym International Corp" is a private company with only three employees. Its office is a small house located in a residential area. So the book never be a "peer-reviewed publication".
• WP:SPS says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." However Alan Carter Covell's only qualifications are that "having spent many years in Texas, knows horses and their capacities as well as their weaknesses. (Dust jacket)" (Guth)

2. There are two book reviews regarding Covell's book.

• Guth, Christine (June, 1986). "Book reviews: Korean Impact on Japanese Culture". Numen. 33 (1). BRILL: 178–179. ISSN 1568-5276. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Best, Jonathan W. (Summer, 1990). "Horserider Returns: Two Recent Studies of Early Korean-Japanese Relations". Journal of Japanese Studies. 16 (2). The Society for Japanese Studies: 437–442. ISSN 1549-4721. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

These reviews criticize harshly (or with sarcasm). Some of the examples are as follows:

• "In this slender volume of one―hundred pages,　the authors describe the Korean impact on Japanese Culture from the Prehistoric through the modern era. Such a task presupposes an understanding of and ability to synthesize a vast body of confusing and often conflicting historical, political, and artistic evidence. This subject, more than any other in Japanese and Korean studies, requires objectivity and well-rounded scholarship. All are lacking in this book intended, according to the dust jacket, "for Popular consumption rather than the specialist's tedious reading."" (Guth)
• ... "Covell's presentation of this provocative thesis is sloppy and full of factual errors. Furthermore, his text suffers from a lack of editing." .... (Guth)
• "Whereas Part I attempts a broad characterization of early Japan through sometimes questionable interpretation of historical sources such as the eighth century Kojiki and Nihonshoki,..." (Guth)
• "... Dr. Covell deliberately presents a distorted picture of the state of Japanese scholarship in the field of Buddhist sculpture.... This statement is both unnecessary inflammatory and historically inaccurate." (Guth)
• "There is a need for a publication aimed at a general audience that explains the close relationship that has traditionally existed between Japan and Korea. This book, however, does not fill that need." (Guth)
• "A close scholarly critiquing of the volume would prove even more tedious for all concerned." (Best)
• " Approximately four‐fifths of the book's hundred pages are devoted to Korean inpact on Japan prior to the eighth century, It is this section that is the most plagued by the Covelis' propensity to take uncritically a single entry from a historical source.... and to elaborate it exponentially in a fashion to suit their particular historical notions and sensationalizing literary style." (Best)
• "... Where does one begin to critique such a presentation? It is basically the stuff of historical novels, not of history." (Best)
• "... but the potential value of its message is seriously impaired both by the numerous historical inaccuracies that appear on its pages and by the historically unsupportable elaboration of minimal evidence in which its authors repeatedly indulge." (Best)

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:52, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

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