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AQI ("Al-Qaeda in Iraq") name changes

Quote:

"The Organization of Jihad's Base in the Country of the Two Rivers," more commonly known as "Al-Qaeda in Iraq" (AQI).

"Country of the Two Rivers" links to Mesopotamia. Media also translated that to "Al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia" which is not mentioned in this long section on names and name changes.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.221.67.50 (talk • contribs) 06:58, 24 August 2014

Map is misleading

Most of the big red splotch of Islamic State is empty desert controlled by no one. At most, ISIS/ISIL controls the cities/towns they occupy and the routes between the cities/towns. The area fully controlled by Islamic State (and the for that matter most formal governments in a desert region) would look more like a spider web. --Naaman Brown (talk) 09:02, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

"Note: map includes uninhabited areas" was added to partially address this. I don't believe it's technically feasible, or at least far more challenging, to create and update a map using the 'spiderweb' that Institute for Understanding War and others are using. Gazkthul (talk) 02:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

If you were to modify the map, you should add another color for "no man's land (desert)". To be fair, that territory does not count for either side in the conflict. JRSpriggs (talk) 03:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Which part is Syria and which part is Iraq? That is a basic question any reader would want answered looking at this map. Why is this considered so unimportant? The maps have never shown borders. Why? --P123ct1 (talk) 11:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The statement that the "map includes uninhabited areas" is facile; nearly any map of anywhere in the world above the city level includes uninhabited areas of some kind, depending on the reader's interpretation of "uninhabited". I had no idea what the note meant to communicate until I read this talk page discussion. I recommend either re-wording the note or removing it outright. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 07:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed that it's ambiguous and unhelpful. The easiest fix might be to include the locations of cities so the sparseness of al-Anbar province will be more obvious. I'd also suggest replacing "uninhabited" with "uninhabitable". 136.159.160.242 (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"Uninhabitable" is not a bad idea, but I worry about quibbles about what that means. How about Note: shading includes large area of undefended desert. This includes several significant wording changes. I'm hoping "undefended" conveys the sense of "nodody gives a f***" what we're trying to find words for. It's not quite "unclaimed", but close. And by saying "shading" (not just "map") and "large areas", it's clear that the indicated sizes are misleading. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I would like to bring this discussion to your attention which deals with the same question. Kind regards. --RJFF (talk) 17:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"Daash", "'Daʿesh" or "Daesh", coverage in Arabic media and reflected content in the article

I just did a search on ("داعش") OR (" الدولة الإسلامية‎"). That's "Daash" / "Daʿesh" / "Daesh" OR "Islamic State". "Daash" / "Daʿesh" / "Daesh" got a lot of coverage.

I am curious about the following extreme results:

• "Daash" / "Daʿesh" / "Daesh" as "داعش" gets "About 45,700,000 results"

(I am yet to find other meanings for "Daash" / "Daʿesh" / "Daesh": https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%B4 )

• "Islamic State" as "الدولة الإسلامية‎" gets "About 9,830,000 results".

First I think we should decide on a prevalent use of one English representation of "داعش" and I propose "Daash"

• "Islamic State" AND Daash gets "About 1,210,000 results"
• "Islamic State" AND Daʿesh gets "About 62,800 results"
• "Islamic State" AND Daesh gets "About 219,000 results"

Second, I propose that "Daash", "Daʿesh" or "Daesh" should be given a far higher level of representation in the article.

Dāʿesh is currently mentioned twice; Daash does not appear; Daʿesh is mentioned once in the article and once in references; Daesh is mentioned once in the article and once in notes.

In this connection I also propose that the lead be changed perhaps as follows:

At the moment the lead reads: The Islamic State (IS); (Template:Lang-ar ad-Dawlah l-ʾIslāmiyyah), formerly the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL /ˈaɪsəl/; Arabic acronym: داعش Dāʿesh)...

I propose: The Islamic State (IS); (Template:Lang-ar ad-Dawlah l-ʾIslāmiyyah), previously self-described as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL); (Template:Lang-ar - Arabic acronym: داعش Dāʿish, DaashDaʿish)...

I do not think that "formerly" is sufficient. There is significant use of "Daash", "Daʿesh" or "Daesh" in Arabic sources while the United States and others make direct reference to the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant".

Gregkaye ✍♪ 00:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I really don't see why Daash needs a far higher level of representation in the article. Outlining the term in the lead and repeating it with spelling variations in the 'Name and Name changes' subsection should be more than sufficient. Gazkthul (talk) 00:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I might have missed some previous discussion, but shouldn't we be deciding this based on the MOS's guidelines about Arabic transliteration? "داعش" should appear as "Da`ish" throughout, no? Suomichris (talk) 01:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@Gazkthul:, I said "should be". Reason, its a term in prodigious use and this "should be" fairly reported. @Suomichris: in reflection of the high level of use in arabic, "Daash", "Daʿesh" or "Daesh" is widely reported in western media. In this regard I had assumed that WP:Use commonly recognisable names applies. Gregkaye ✍♪ 02:10, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

My 2 cents. The داعش acronym is correctly pronounced Da3esh, where 3 is the internet representation of the guttural sound that Arab speakers can pronounce like they do in the word 3ayn - eye-, and is correctly transliterated as Dāʿesh. Daash is incorrect but it may be used by uninformed persons. I have never heard anyone call them Daash. An analogy may be something like a Latin speaker trying to say "my son" and it comes out "mi zhon". Worldedixor (talk) 02:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Whatever you all decide on this time, it will be changed again by a new editor down the line, and the discussion will start again and perhaps another variant will be chosen, and so on. Have lost count of the variants on this acronym that have appeared in this article in just a few months. The beliefs in the infobox are ever-changing as well, and the titles of the infoboxes. Some Misplaced Pages articles are like an amoeba, and this is one of them. So much for solid information from Misplaced Pages. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:15, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it should stop us that other editors will change it later—there's a clear MOS guideline here, and if we can also get consensus here on the Talk page, anything that doesn't match those two things should be reverted. Worldedixor and I seem to be largely in agreement that this should be represented as "Daʿesh" (note that the transliteration guidelines have the kasra as a /i/, regardless of actual pronunciation, and not /e/). Also, Gregkaye, the guideline you point to about recognizable names is specifically for article titles. Suomichris (talk) 14:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

TY Suomichris It is a good point about article titles and I have withdrawn my proposal for Daash above. The thing that was on my mind is that the the topic of Daʿesh/Daash might develop to a point where it warrants an article in its own right but this may be thinking too far ahead. Would people be in agreement on the consistent use of Daʿesh then?

I just did a search on "Islamic State" AND Dāʿesh which merely got "About 3,480 results".

with similar results for "Islamic State" AND Da3esh getting "About 3,180 results".

The search on Daʿesh got "About 62,800 results" and, if people are happy that this fits the MOS criteria, is this something could be used consistently.

On the same basis how does this amended the proposed opener as: The Islamic State (IS); (Template:Lang-ar ad-Dawlah l-ʾIslāmiyyah), previously self-described as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL); (Template:Lang-ar - Arabic acronym: داعش  Daʿesh)...

Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:00, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the general Misplaced Pages reader will be far less bothered by how it is spelled and pronounced than why it is used pejoratively, what its pejorative meaning is it carries and why it is disliked so much by ISIS! This remains a mystery despite Google searches. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Dāʿesh as a word has no meaning in the Arabic language. Some uninformed journalists just parrot that it has a pejorative meaning.Worldedixor (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

RS sources back it up in "Name & name changes". Examine them. That's my last word on it. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

1 more cent from moi... I am aware of MOS's guidelines and its common errors. However, Dāʿesh (not Dā'esh) can only be pronounced Daa3esh... Dāʿish may be pronounced Daa3eesh by most readers, which is wrong! Worldedixor (talk) 21:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Worldedixor, you seem to talk a lot of cents and with value greater than you let on. I am guessing that Daʿesh is better than Daʿesh. Good enough as a compromise between accuracy and standard journalistic output? Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:45, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Why thank you, Gregkaye. Worldedixor (talk) 19:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Propose the consistent use of Daʿesh in article

Can we use a consistent spelling? Daʿesh? Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

That would be my vote, yes, as it conforms to the MOS. Suomichris (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Gregkaye and Suomichris as a good compromise between accuracy and standard journalistic output. Worldedixor (talk) 19:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Suomichris: @Worldedixor: and others, I just looked back at some archived pages of this talk page and found: "DĀʻiSh". I know Worldedixor prefers the use of "e". How applicable is a regular presentation such as DAʻeSh or DAʿeSh (DAʻiSh or DAʿiSh) or similar in comparison to Daʿesh? I also wondered about a format such as XXʻXXx or XXʿXXx.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:00, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The "i" can be mispronounced by many. I see no justification for a capital A in the middle of the word. Perhaps DAʿESH because its an acronym, but we would be given three Latin capital letters to one Arabic letter (ش). I think 'Daʿesh is the best compromise. Hope this helps. Worldedixor (talk) 12:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Another argument for a capitalisation of DAʿESH is a commonality with ISIL and ISIS. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

As I predicted, this decision didn't last long. It has just been changed again! --P123ct1 (talk) 11:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

And again. :{ --P123ct1 (talk) 12:41, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Problems with this Article

Dear All,

I have noticed some problems with this articles and think fixing them is important given the possible traffic this article may get as military action in Iraq and Syria escalates.

1) The time of events and history sections are confusing. These should be one section. 2) The group is not a "jihadist group". Jihad is a religious duty for muslims and this group is engaged in persecuting and murdering muslims as well as various non-muslim religious minorities. 3) The article is bias and furthers ISIS propaganda. Re-terming the article in terms of a movement is more appropriate. The group has labelled itself "Islamic State" to attempt to assert political and religious authority over all muslims. Misplaced Pages has no interest in supporting this assertion and doing so is biased and not via media. 4) The article is becoming far too long. There is a lot of interest on this at the moment and so a lot of editors, but there is too much content for this topic. It is not in the reader's interest for there to be a billion pages.

That is about it. Please try to address as may be the case. I cannot, since the article is "locked".

Regards, 131.217.255.4 (talk) 08:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

131.217.255.4: Thank you for your comment. There is a proposal to reduce the size of the "History" section here and this will probably happen soon. I also have questioned why the 2014 timeline should be duplicated in this article, now that it has been transferred to a new article of its own here. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

To 131.217.255.4: If you want to participate in editing this article (which is semi-protected), you should choose a user-id and password and register. After four days of editing, you will be allowed to edit semi-protected articles. I disagree with your desire to whitewash Islam by trying to claim that the actions of ISIL are contrary to the will of Muhammad as conveyed in the Qu'ran. JRSpriggs (talk) 11:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

131.217.255.4 I was particularly interested in what you said at: 2) "The group is not a "jihadist group"..." I am not sure of the extent to which the actions of the group can be justified under any interpretation of Jihad. See: http://www.justislam.co.uk/product.php?products_id=2 for one article on "What Jihad IS NOT!" Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The article reflects descriptions by reliable sources. These sources describe claims and counter-claims; and we have both in the article. We don't do original research to single our sources that accord with our findings. I appreciate your point of view but we must defer to reliable sources. Jason from nyc (talk) 23:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The idea of including the last 30 days of the 2014 timeline was my idea and is discussed above (#Timeline and History sections). The idea is to have about 30 days of the most recents events viewable here, however the information is actually in the timeline article, and clicking the edit tab opens an editing window for that article. I think the entire timeline (2003-2014) or just older timeline (2003-2013) should be also on split page as well with a link to it from this page. A proposal to reorder the sections is above (#Sequence of article sections) and there's another proposal to allow Ip users to edit the article with pending revisions (#Questioning semi-protected status) which can be closed and requested. As far as bias, I think there needs to be more information about the soft power campaign and local governance. I found an article here, which along with the Vice documentary gives a rare (albeit biased) view into what everyday life is like in occupied territory. ~Technophant (talk) 00:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree that more info on governance would be desirable. I have put some in the Governance section and I see some is in the Guidelines for civilians section. I suggest moving the latter into the former. We use The Atlantic article in both sections. The sources have more details on governance. Jason from nyc (talk) 01:12, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done --P123ct1 (talk) 17:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Problems with this article? It is now being influenced too much by the personal views of editors. Bare facts are being twisted and magnified. I am not saying from bad motives. But neutrality is important in Misplaced Pages. I understand this is a common problem in Misplaced Pages. Fortunately, this page seems to have escaped it until recently. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:53, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Jihadist or similar in lead!?

In light of criticisms of Islamic authorities in regard to the groups activities I have swapped Sunni Jihadist for Sunni Insurgent in the lead. I certainly don't think it is fair just to declare them jihadist without citation and without statements regarding who says what. In what Islamically legitimate ways are the group "struggling" and should this label be placed on the groups scholars, the groups leadership, all the groups members? How do some of the groups more controversial actions fit in with the concept of Jihad?
Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye: Once again, Misplaced Pages should not judge these things. That is for historians and commentators, whose views can be reported in the right place ("Ideology and beliefs"). Misplaced Pages must adhere to NPOV, especially in the Lead. The subject you raise has been discussed on the Talk page more than once, for example here. The Lead should not be cluttered up with footnotes; editors have been trying to cut down on their number (see Talk page discussion #27). Footnotes are for the section where their jihadism is described, in the "Ideology and beliefs" section. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye:I think you are reading too much into the term Jihadist, reliable sources use it to describe Islamic State (as well many other organisations from al-Qaeda to the Taliban) therefore we do to. What is or isn't Islamically legitimate is not Misplaced Pages's place to decide. Gazkthul (talk) 02:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

A google of ISIS jihadist gives 9.3 million hits. A google of ISIS insurgent gives 484,000 hits. Jihadist is used in a broad range of publications including The Guardian, CNN, the BBC, and the New York Times. From the context it is clearly used in the martial sense and not in a general sense of striving. Incidentally al-Qaeda jihadist gives 2 million and al-Qaeda insurgent gives 7 million while Boko Haram gives 3 million hits for both combinations. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The lead should summarize the article. We use jihadist more often than insurgent. It is more specific than insurgent. And given the successful establishment of governance in eastern Syria and the possible establishment of rule over Western Iraq, ISIS has gone beyond the insurgent stage in some areas. The word jihadist better summarizes the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Insurgent is beginning to look outdated; events have moved on so fast since June. I agree that the Lead should use the term jihadist as that is how they are commonly described. Whether they can legitimately call themselves jihadists could be discussed in "Ideology and beliefs" - see my new outline for this section here. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

In comparison the article on al-Qaeda states later in the lead that: "It operates as ... a radical Wahhabi Muslim movement calling for a strict interpretation of sharia law and jihad". If substantiated then it is certainly warranted to document any of Islamic State/..'s claims of being a jihadist group, its advocacies of jihad or anything that it actually does. Its also fair to report on interpretations of various outlets of it as being an jihadist group. However, when interpretations of Jihad vary, I don't think it right to directly label them as being jihadist. I don't believe the killing of innocents as being legitimately in tune with Islamic law or jihad and, if anything, we should quote experts on these matters. I agree with other editors that the word insurgent is outdated but think that value references to topics like Jihad need to be qualified. Several wordings can be used including "Sunni group" or "group predominantly composed of Sunni Muslims". Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

To Gregkaye: The problem is the definition of "innocents". People who you, I, and most others consider innocent are not considered innocent by strict Muslims because those innocents have rejected Allah as understood by the strict Muslims. JRSpriggs (talk) 13:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye, with all due respect, I believe your objection to stating that ISIS is jihadist is because the converse doesn't hold. The converse would state that jihad must be what ISIS does and as you point out it is a much broader concept; even in the sense of "lessor jihad" most interpreters object to ISIS behavior. This problem is true for every categorization of ISIS. ISIS is Salafi (but not all Salafists are like ISIS). ISIS is Sunni (but the converse is obviously false). ISIS is Wahhabi influenced but so are others who reject ISIS. ISIS longs for a caliphate but so do others who reject self-appointed upstarts. You can put ISIS in many categories that they would share with others who reject and repudiate the path ISIS has taken. The sources overwhelmingly categorize ISIS as jihadist and I believe we must too. Obviously further qualification is absolutely required as we have an obligation to provide a full description. Jason from nyc (talk) 00:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

@JRSpriggs: I would like to see evidence that the imams and other muslims beheaded by ISIL were any less "strictly Muslim" than the murderers that killed them. Should we also call them Jihadist? Declaring ISIL to be Jihadist prior to a discussion on the topic is taking sides. There are many Muslims that fit the literal description of Jihad that would not kill journalists and civilians etc. In fact notable opposition exists.

3. By murdering prisoners of war, journalists and civilians, including mosque imams who refused to endorse their campaign, and by enslaving the women and children of their opponents, ISIS has violated international agreements such as the Geneva Conventions and conventions on slavery that everyone, including Muslims, have signed up to. God says in the Qur’an, “Believers, fulfil your covenants!” (5:1)

4. The IS persecution and massacres of Shia Muslims, Christians and Yazidis is abhorrent and opposed to Islamic teachings and the Islamic tolerance displayed by great empires such as the Mughals and Ottomans.

5. Based on all of the above: IS is a heretical, extremist organisation and it is religiously prohibited (haram) to support or join it; furthermore, it is an obligation on British Muslims to actively oppose its poisonous ideology, especially when this is promoted within Britain.

from: http://www.aobm.org/fatwa-on-the-so-called-islamic-state-formerly-islamic-state-in-iraq-syria/

The article's first paragraph described the group as "Jihadist" with the problem that the second paragraph then went on to presents descriptions of the group as being "a terrorist group" "designated as a foreign terrorist organization" that the "United Nations and Amnesty International have accused the group of grave human rights abuses".

Yes Jason from nyc, the point is that Jihad does represent a wider concept. The lead as it stood failed to represent it.

Readers would be forgiven in thinking, oh, so that's what Jihad is. The text of the lead was unacceptable in context that it is very possible for a reader to read just a portion of an article. We would be giving an inaccurate/incomplete view of the broad concept of Jihad.

"islamic state" "jihadist" gets "About 2,560,000 results"
"islamic state" "extremist" gets "About 2,890,000 results"

Claims of the group as being Jihadist or comments on references made in the media (and perhaps in other places) to the group as being Jihadist might well be placed with the groups declaration as being a caliphate as also mentioned in the lead.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

This is just the nature of categorization. It’s epistemologically necessary that different concretes subsumed in a general category will be different. Saying that French are Europeans doesn’t mean that French are Greek or Estonians. The fact that all French are Europeans doesn’t mean that all Europeans are French. That's the converse. When stating the Europeans is the genus of French that doesn’t imply that this is the only way to embody that genus. This is just the nature of categorization. Sources overwhelmingly use “jihadist” as the genus for ISIS without implying that the term applies to others in the same way. We should follow the sources as Misplaced Pages is supposed to reflect the sources. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:28, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Instead of "Sunni insurgents" one could say "jihadist extremists." This gives a differentia of extremists to distinguish ISIS jihadists from others. This would be an improvement even if the word "extremist" is vague. By the way I get five times more google hits of ISIS with jihadist than I get with ISIS and extremists. It's clear that jihadist is the descriptor of choice of reliable sources with other qualifiers depending on source. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:35, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done "jihadist extremist..." as per suggestion. This may concur with western sources but may follow a path of error.

http://wikiislam.net/Lesser_vs_Greater_Jihad

"The two forms of Jihad in Islam are sometimes explained by apologists as follows:

• Lesser outer jihad (al-jihad al-asghar); a military struggle, i.e. a holy war
• Greater inner jihad (al-jihad al-akbar); the struggle of personal self-improvement against the self's base desires"

Militant claims of jihad have a theological context

Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:45, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I really don't think the distinction in "jihadist extremists" will mean much to readers. To most people all these al-Qaeda-related groups are seen simply as "jihadists", their extremism being taken for granted. "Jihadist extremists" will probably look like a baffling tautology to them. The Lead is really not the place for hair-splitting of this kind. --P123ct1 (talk) 19:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Ideology and beliefs (3)

@Mhhossein and Jason from nyc: et al: Going by the comments on the Talk page recently, this section is becoming very controversial, as I suspected it would. The nature of the group’s ideology and belief system is being as hotly contested among editors as it is in the Muslim world! As there is so much controversy about it in the Muslim world, I think it needs to be covered quite as much as what is agreed upon, and should therefore be kept in the same section. It is probably best divided into subsections dealing with different aspects of the controversy, backed up with citations. The first subsection could state what is generally agreed about their ideology and beliefs and the last could have general statements from the Muslim world criticising their beliefs, such as the long letter with all the signatories recently published, now at the end of the section. The main thing is to keep to a structure, as the section is already becoming muddled without one, with some new edits being thrown in piecemeal throwing out what order there was. I haven’t kept up with this, but categories so far could be (a) are they really jihadists? (b) are they Wahhabists, and if so what kind of Wahhabists? (c) are they Kharijites? Are there others people can think of? --P123ct1 (talk) 14:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

So far editors' discussions on ideology and beliefs are in "Ideology and beliefs" and "Ideology and beliefs (2)" earlier in the Talk page, this one on Wahhabism here, this one on jihadism here, and this one here which also mentions jihadism. Can we try and keep all discussions on this subject in one place, please, and not have them scattered about, as that makes them difficult to follow properly. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The are two separate issues. The reaction of the Muslim world should obviously be in the article including the ideology section. Wiki allows and even demands attributed opinion. Disinterested commentary and study is preferred when reporting this opinion as it is a secondary source that has singled out this opinion as significant. We should be careful about stating assessments in Misplaced Pages’s voice and particularly careful about taking the side of one denomination, current, variant, or practice. I see a previous suggestion that criticisms of the ISIS ideology should be in a sub-section. I’m neutral on that. But the criticism is growing. The recent inclusion of the important open letter goes beyond name-calling and cites principles. It was signed by 126 Islamic scholars worldwide (with the conspicuous absence of Saudi Arabia.) This helps our criticism sub-section. Jason from nyc (talk) 13:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@P123ct1: I'm in agreement on having subsections. But this issue is, as you said, very contested and we should not let every sentence be introduced here. Other parts of this article depend on the news mainly and some how we're going to have a different section here. I strongly recommend to include the main ideas and criticisms which are backed by several groups. Ideas by merely a single clerk usually does not qualify to be here (exceptions may exist regarding very famous political and religious characters). Ideas and criticisms would better have a rational reasoning if they are going to be stated as a fact, or they should be stated just as an expression by an individual. I'm willing to cooperate in enhancing this section, as I made this section before to enhance the quality of the article. Mhhossein (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

That is what I meant by "It is probably best divided into subsections dealing with different aspects of the controversy, backed up with citations". Meaning: Aspect X (jihadism, or Wahhabism, etc) described neutrally, backed up with "A said this (about it)", "B said this (about it)" (more if necessary), with citations to back up their statements. For example, "It is said they are not true jihadists. A and B say this about it (with citations)." Each subsection should not, must not, be long. We don't want an essay on the topic. This section would be dealing with opinions rather than facts, obviously. As there are so many opinions, I think they need to be covered - the controversy out there is notable, IMO. It could almost be seen as a "controversies" section:- "Ideology and beliefs": (1) outline of generally agreed characteristics, not disputed by Muslims and others (2) controversies among Muslims and others over what their beliefs really are (3) general Muslim criticism of their ideology/beliefs, for example the letter with all the signatories I mentioned earlier. The sentence in the ISIS article

Other critics of ISIS's brand of Sunni Islam include Salafists who previously publicly supported jihadist groups such as al-Qaeda, for example the Saudi government official Saleh Al-Fawzan, known for extremist views, who claims that ISIS is a creation of "Zionists, Crusaders and Safavids", and the Jordanian-Palestinian writer Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi who was released from prison in Jordan in June 2014.

would not add much to a section of the sort I have outlined, as it is really just a mention of two names that have criticized them. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

There do not necessarily have to be "subsections" dealing with each aspect, but I think it is important that the controversies should be dealt with separately, as far as possible, otherwise there would be a danger of the whole section getting into a muddle again, the way it is now. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:12, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@P123ct1: according to Misplaced Pages:UNDUE such views should not be presented. this is in accordance to what I said before. For presenting different views we should not pay to minority views. To support my claim, I'd like to use these sentences from Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and undue weight:

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.1

So, we'd better be careful about this issue. Mhhossein (talk) 11:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't know the extent to which differing views are minority views; it is up to more knowledgeable editors to decide that and keep description of controversies in proportion. It could mean the section is very short! My main concern was that whatever is said, it should be put down methodically in the way I outlined. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If a minority of experts express detailed analysis that doesn't contradict the vast majority of reliable sources but further elaborates the topic, that shouldn't be considered "undue." Experts are a minority. Most writers on the subject (and most of our sources) are not experts. They are secondary sources as they should be and they often don't provide the depth that an encyclopedia requires. Undue has to do with a minority that goes against the majority of reliable sources. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:28, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

@Jason from nyc: Being secondary is not enough, the sources should also be reliable with it's specific definition. By the way, I believe that who made this group is not a matter to be discussed here. It is not related to the "Ideology and Beliefs". Mhhossein (talk) 07:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Their ideology and beliefs can't be discussed without saying "who made them". Influences are all when it comes to matters of belief. And if there are serious disputes among Muslims about what their beliefs really are, they cannot be ignored in a section called "Ideology and beliefs". --P123ct1 (talk) 13:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

@P123ct1: Don't mix them please! I think in this section we should discuss where their thoughts (ideology and beliefs) are originated from. This matter is brought in the first three paragraphs in a dispersed form. I don't find any motivations for the sentences of discussing who made them to stay here. OK : ISIS ideology is originated from group A and He acts like group B. It is OK because it is clearly stated the belief and ideology is a mixture of A and B probably. Not OK : ISIS is said to be made by C, others say it is made by D ! it's not OK because you can't make any relationships between the ideology and beliefs of ISIS and C. ISIS, of course, may have completely different beliefs and ideology from C or D. That's why we should move or remove some of the sentences. A new section might be required. By the way, what is that serious dispute? Mhhossein (talk) 18:29, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: I haven't touched the section except to copy-edit it! I am on shaky ground owing to my lack of knowledge and now think my subsectioning suggestion was a bit over the top. I thought the serious disputes were about whether they can be called Wahhabists and whether they are really Kharijites, but maybe that isn't a serious dispute. It still think those two things deserve a mention, however brief. They are both covered already and maybe that is enough - only I am surprised that the Wahhabist paras have been left so prominent, as I thought there was big controversy over this even among editors. You did say their ideology and beliefs are very contested, so perhaps those criticisms could be added at the end, in a separately headed subsection. Could you perhaps reshape this section, which is still a bit muddled in sequence, as you were the original author? I don't want to give you the task if you are not willing; I just thought you might be the best person to do it. If I reordered it I might give the wrong emphases. Then once on paper, as it were, you could sort out any potential disagreements with Jason from nyc, who like you obviously knows more about this subject than I do. This method, putting a draft into the article first and then adjusting it with the consensus of other editors, has worked well for other parts of the article. Do you agree with this approach, Jason from nyc? --P123ct1 (talk) 19:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

link to this article should be added

Definitions of terrorism - should be added as the article maintains that several different bodies have designated ISIL as terrorist and this clarifies that and why some do not call them terrorists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.195.225 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 28 September 2014

Proposed move from "ISIS" to "ISIL" in the article text

The previous consensus (reached earlier this year, I believe) was to use "ISIS" in the text, on the grounds that "ISIS" then was the group's common name. I have noticed more use of "ISIL" recently, but cannot quantify it. Who supports a change from "ISIS" to "ISIL"? It would be more consistent with the article's title, if nothing else. Earlier discussion of this is here and here. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Support - --P123ct1 (talk) 09:51, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Support - especially instead of "Islamic State" which is a very problematic name. Legacypac (talk) 20:26, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - I don't believe that this abbreviation is more common than ISIS, and there would be a disconnect with the use of ISIS on many other articles that would need to be changed also. Gazkthul (talk) 02:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Digging through UN Security Council documents like the al-Qaida Sanctions list, I found the UN is using "ISIL" consistently and long after the group shortened the ir name. A recent example: Legacypac (talk) 03:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Support, the accurate translation of the 2013 name is the same as the article title Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. We should use ISIL with consistency to both accurate translation and article title used.

incidentally the parallel article ar:الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام gives a machine code translation that reads: "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant , known for short as Daash , which calls itself now an Islamic state only .." Gregkaye ✍♪ 06:02, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

An editor has changed some instances of "ISIS" to "ISIL" without the consensus from other editors needed for this change. I have reverted the changes until a decision is made on which acronym to use in the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:46, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I was the editor who you reverted manually. I'm not upset, just confused as your edit seems to go against what you were advocating, which is consistency. Watching CNN tonight they had ISIS in the graphics over commentators and generals saying ISIL consistently. Strange situation. Legacypac (talk) 09:18, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

You miss the point. The consensus view of editors as a whole is what counts, not the view of an individual editor. Consensus has not been reached yet. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:01, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the action to revert at this stage was optional but I certainly give it support. We have a discussion regarding best use of terminology between ISIS (with more usage in media) and ISIL (according to better English translation and consistency with article title). It is a topic that has been previously raised with this and the last instance being at P123ct1's initiation. It can also be helpful in a talk page discussion to give notification that an action has been { {done}}. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Neutral Weak Oppose Either is respectable. As I understand it, "Syria" in ISIS is greater Syria and not the current nation-state that was created by Western division. Thus, Levant, the L in ISIL might be better to capture the wider aims of ISIL. However, they've only captured territory in Syria and Iraq, so ISIS is respectable as well. Both are used by sources. My "weakness" stems from a preference for waiting until one emerges as dominant in the sources. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:41, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc. I think that, if we could rewrite recent word usage, the 2013 name may have been better rendered as the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria. This would have given the acronym ISIGS and which would arguably have been a more understandable terminology. The groups name went from reference to Iraq to reference to Iraq and greater Syria/the Levant and now, without giving any public declaration of actual territorial ambition, they have dropped geographical reference altogether. As reference to the 2013 name we are left with a choice between ISIS and ISIL. Arabic sources prefer Da'esh as a clear anagram of the 2013 name. ISIL is the most accurate parallel. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Let me remove my opposition. It's a judgment call and those who support it here have done hard work kicking this article into shape. Jason from nyc (talk) 16:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support – Can we please have some sort of consistency here? We're using "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" as the title of this article, at present. Until that changes, we should use the accompanying abbreviation, which is "ISIL". Discussions about the article title can be had elsewhere. Right now, at the title that this is at, it makes sense to use ISIL. RGloucester — ☎ 16:51, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the views of any opposers should be underestimated. There may be an argument that ISIS still is the group's WP:COMMONNAME, or at least more common than ISIL, which under that guidance would mean that ISIS has to stay. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:23, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:UCRN is a section title within WP:AT and applies to article titles. For the time being we have one of those. Another part of WP:AT is WP:CRITERIA where the issue of consistency gets mentioned. Again this is an article title issue. Certainly when we look at other encyclopaedias like Britannica that make consistent use of single renderings but reference to WP:RELIABLE relates to the content of sources and not to their methodologies. I don't know of any guideline that directly applies to this situation and think that Jason from nyc got it right. It's a judgement call. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:34, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

It is a "judgemental call". However, this is an article title concern. There have numerous proposal about moving this article to numerous titles, including the full-length version of ISIS. All of these have failed so far, and given this, it makes sense to be consistent. If we're going to make a judgement call between ISIS and ISIL, which are both used fairly commonly, it only makes senses to use the one that matches the title of our article. RGloucester — ☎ 20:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Quite a few editors have weighed in on now in this thread. And all previous attempts to move the article name to ISIS have failed. I am not opposed to ISIS as an alternate name used in the article just think we need to get off protecting ISIS from being standardized to mostly ISIL. So do we have consensus yet? Legacypac (talk) 21:28, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

What we have is a proposal (dated: 20:13, 29 September 2014) with three supports and one oppose and this can be viewed in a context of a Misplaced Pages editing force that has seen the creation of 22,657,167 named accounts. In context ...few editors have weighed providing, at best, a limited view of "wikt:consensus". Its 5 editor contributions over 2 days and any S to L changes made at this stage would certainly be WP:BOLD. I'd suggest waiting a little longer and even then changes would be made at risk as WP:consensus can change. Also the view of P123ct1, as proposer of the issue, is important here. Gregkaye ✍♪ 06:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

If you look at the names, so far it is five for and one against the move from ISIS to ISIL. I sense lukewarm interest from other editors. But as Gregkaye says probably best to wait a little longer to guage consensus. Whatever consensus is reached it should be recorded here, so that if objections are raised by other editors if the vote goes to ISIL, they can be pointed to a clear decision by editors who participated in the "vote". --P123ct1 (talk) 09:51, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

5:1 sounds more like consensus. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:01, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye has already started changing "ISIS" to "ISIL". In the absence of further "votes" or comments since the last count of 5:1, I think it is it is safe to assume there is now CONSENSUS to move from "ISIS" to "ISIL" in the text of the article.

Please be careful about global changes. (a) Quotations must obviously not be altered. (b) If "ISIS" in footnote wikitext is accidentally changed to "ISIL", it could break the links and then readers won't be able to call up the citations. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:33, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Good point on quotes and links. We have consensus and we shall apply it to this and related articles on the basis of consistency. Further enforcing that there is true consensus, the article was just moved from 2014 military intervention against ISIS to 2014_military intervention against the Islamic_State of Iraq and the Levant based on an RfC that ran for a month and reached nearly 100% agreement. Legacypac (talk) 21:37, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

The war faction infobox is out of hand

There are two infoboxes at the start of the article, the first based on {{Infobox country}} and the second based on {{Infobox war faction}}

These pose several problems in their current form. I think the first 2 problems are very serious.

1. The war faction infobox has grown enormous in scope, covering at least 4 conflicts, and listing military and political opponents and allies all across the globe. It no longer summarizes useful information for the reader. It has instead become several lists with nothing but offsite references to explain it. A reader can no longer navigate it. How do they know whether an ally or opponent is political or military? How do they know whether an alliance existed in the current conflict, or in one of several previous conflicts? Some of the entries are not even mentioned in the body of the article.
2. They span many screenfuls down the right-hand size of the page. On mobile devices, they dominate the top of the article. Tablet and smartphone users have to scroll dozens of pages to get to the table of contents and the body of the article. Mobile readers may never have the patience to find the best work of this article's editors.
3. Editors are confronted with many pages of template code before they can find prose they can read or edit. This is a bad experience for new editors. Even though the page is semi-protected, we should still welcome potential new editors with something that is easy to edit.

I thing that the war faction template was originally designed to be useful to summarize a faction in a single conflict, rather than extend to the entire history of a political and military organization.

I suggest that we start working to fix it. Should we make a first step? Lets delete the second infobox, and work its contents into list sections in the article. (Some of these should eventually become prose sections, and perhaps even lists in themselves. Perhaps as a later step we can add a few more highlights to the main infobox, even if it means customizing the template for this article.)

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:45, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

This sounds generally sound to me. The first template is a perhaps edited version of one of the templates found at: {{Infobox country}} and maybe there are extra categories there that can absorb some other information.

One difficulty for computer/ large screen users, is that there is a long lead and lengthening TOC while the first infobox is comparatively short. One of my earlier suggestions was for the content of the third and fourth paragraphs of the lead to be distributed into later text. This would give readers more immediate access to the TOC which would also have benefits for small screen users.

Alternatively, not all of the second box need be deleted. Sections are: active -dates; Ideology ...; Leaders ...; Headquarters .. ; Area of operation; Strength ...; part of al-Queda; Originated as ...; Allies ...; Opponents ...; Battles and wars ...;

Sections that I think would be worth moving include the last three (big sections). Other sections like Leaders are duplications of main article content. Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:37, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I just wanted to check that information transfers well.

Iraq based opponents

 Iraq

• Iraqi Armed Forces
• Iraqi Shia militias
• Iraqi Turkmen Front

Sunni Iraqi Insurgents

Iraqi Kurdistan

It does and columns can be easily applied :) Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:44, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

It must be borne in mind that the Lead to any article should be a summary of the article, which this Lead now is. If anything is removed from it, it will no longer be a summary. The Lead is of reasonable length for an article of this size. The problem here is the ridiculously long second infobox, not the Lead, and it is the second infobox that needs dealing with, not the Lead. Reshaping the article to suit the needs of mobile phone users is crazy. The best solution is obviously to give the second infobox information its own section, as suggested, perhaps as lists complete with its flags, or is there some WP policy/guidance that prevents it? Or look at the Syrian Civil War article to see how the same problem is dealt with there. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:36, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The TOC is collapsible, btw. --P123ct1 (talk)

 Done! at least to a point that gave me satisfaction :)
the TOC now reads:

11 Finances
12 Equipment
13 Support

13.1 Foreign fighters

13.2 Allies

14 Opposition

14.1 Front line opposition forces

14.2 Multinational coalition (US lead) opposition

Actions taken were: to move Equipment above Foreign fighters to link with Finances; to add title Support; to move Allies from infobox; to add title Opposition (used to be opponents but I wanted to counterpoint support); To change to title front line opposition forces from whatever it was and add Iraq, Syria and Lebanon listings here (Perhaps the Kurdish forces could be moved up to here); to move multinational yader yader title changing to opposition from opponents and inserting listings from infobox; placing lists in two column format. That's all folks. Feel free to edit away. :)

The infoboxes now neatly (just as I planned honest) reach down to just about the same depth in the page as the end of the TOC. (I still favour more editing out from both lead and infoboxes but not to the point of being that bothered). Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:01, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye After all your hard work I am now wondering about the wisdom of having the allies/opponents in a section so far away from the first page! I notice there is a lot of white space on the first page, in the TOC (s.2.2.1 could be two lines) and between the first infobox and the TOC. Could a single or double column with the allies/opponents be fitted in there? If you look at the first page of the Syrian Civil War article you will see the sort of thing I mean. If the only way would be by removing some of the Lead, please forget it, for as I said above I am very against that! --P123ct1 (talk) 11:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1 Wow, the Syrian.. page looks good. I really don't have an opinion on positioning and it wasn't that much work, just a few shifts about (but thanks also for your copy-editing). Split column infoboxes would be one option. The option of moving the info to a higher position also sounds great to me. Perhaps, as a section composed of names, it could even follow directly on from the names section - or perhaps follow History or Designation as a terrorist organization. I think the next three headings go well as a unit (Analysis, Ideology and beliefs and Goals) and they are followed by 7 Territorial claims, 8 Governance, 9 Human rights abuses. I'm not fussed on where to place the new insert so don't necessarily wait for my opinion.

Section headings of the moved content might read:

Allies and opposition

Allies

Opposition: based in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon

Opposition: multinational coalition (US-led)

That last section currently reads "Multinational coalition (US-led) opposition" but I wanted to get "opposition" either consistently at the beginning or end of the header.

The sub-heads represent the three double columned lists with the last list being the longest.

This "Opposition: multinational coalition (US-led)" section has further sub titles:

Military operations in or over Iraq and/or Syria, Supplying weapons to ground forces, Other State Opponents, Other Non-State Opponents, Iranian Kurdish fighters

I think the section on Foreign fighters is best left as following the sections on Finance and Equipment as this typically deals with smaller scale gains rather than organisational support.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye So there is no way the information could be put in a double/single column beside the other infobox as suggested, then? That would be preferable. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I thought perhaps after names but I've got no strong opinion. Suggestions welcome from all. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I think it looks good as it currently stands. Gazkthul (talk) 23:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

TY. An advantage of current configuration is a connection between of section "Foreign fighters" and "Allies" which was my original motivation. However, P123ct1 is right to note that information has moved from the top of the article virtually to the bottom. The question relates to reader priorities, either to know how things got to the current situation or to know how that situation currently stands. Gregkaye ✍♪ 02:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I have moved the section up to come after "Designation as a terrorist organization" as a more appropriate place for it. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

One the of problems is that with the mobile view current/old mobile view has the subheading "As Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād, Al-Qaeda in Iraq and Mujahideen Shura Council (1999–2006)" being way too long, which forces the width of the TOC to be too wide to fit side by side with the infoboxes. I tried adding {TOC limit|2} which limits the Table of Contents to only headings that have "==" level, however there's a problem with how this works with Common.css and does not change the mobile view. So I shorten the heading to "Early incarnations (1999–2006)" and now the TOC fits side-by-side with the infoboxes as seen here. The ideal solution would be to limit the mobile view to only the first level headers, but how? The help desk might be able to help.~Technophant (talk) 00:23, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I saw that there was an issue with not being able to set the {{TOC limit}} in mobile view so I posted it the Village pump and created a bug report. If we can set the mobile TOC limit to 2 (only == level headers) then it will create a slimmer shorter mobile TOC. ~Technophant (talk) 03:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

English language reliable sources using"Islamic State" since declaration of name change

The trend since the official name change has moved toward "Islamic State", the official name of the subject of the article. Here is a preliminary listing of English language reliable media sources who are using Islamic State. Feel free to add to the list as it inevitably grows. The dynamic nature of the subject, along with abiding by WP:COMMONNAME, WP:RS and WP:NPOV, is making the continued use of the outdated ISIS or ISIL increasingly untenable. GraniteSand (talk) 23:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Most of the examples listed below are discussing the name, so cannot be used as examples of current usage. Samples need to be taken from regular RS reports on the activities of ISIS. I would imagine that most sources are still using "Islamic State" and "ISIS/ISIL" interchangeably. The Guardian article listed there, a regular report, not discussing name usage, has 29 instances of "ISIS" and 6 of "Islamic State". For as long as RS sources use both, "Islamic State" and "ISIS/ISIL", it won't be possible to say "Islamic State" is now the common name. Twitter and blogs, which appear in that list, are considered questionable sources by WP:RS. "Islamic State" is certainly not NPOV PC for some, which is exactly why there is all this reluctance to use plain "Islamic State" in the media and this article. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:40, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Without going against WP:NOTAFORUM, I still can't understand how calling them Islamic State (their name) gives them "legitimacy" and isn't NPOV, while calling them Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (their old name) doesn't. Gazkthul (talk) 08:18, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It can be looked at both ways. Calling them "Islamic State" in the article can be seen as NPOV because all that does is reflect what the group have renamed themselves as, i.e. a fact, and WP records facts. It can equally be seen as POV, because merely using the name in the article looks like endorsement of the highly-disputed legitimacy of the caliphate/Islamic State. The opposing viewpoints obviously account for why editors disagree so much over this, but as you say these are asides since this thread is about RS practice and this article reflecting it. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:47, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

@P123ct1 This paragraph is perplexing. That's exactly why they are reliable sources for common usage. These reliable sources are discussing the proper naming conventions of the subject of the article since its change and are agreeing upon "Islamic State". In an instance where the common name is not easily discerned because of the common interoperability then we establish there is no established common name and use what reliable sources tell us is the correct name, which the below sources assert is "Islamic State". Additionally, your use of "political correctness' as a litmus for usage here is extremely concerning and suggests that you are either wholly unfamiliar with our policies and mission or are editing here with an agenda not aligned with our mission. In fact it's reflective of much of the unnecessary and obstructive obfuscation surrounding this issue. GraniteSand (talk) 23:06, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

You fail to grasp the simple point I was making about NPOV/POV (and being PC). It was a statement, not a view. Also, I did not like to say it when commenting on your examples, but I, too, thought they were biased. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:34, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

You're right, I don't understand what you're saying. Still, I would like to know more about how you think Political Correctness fits into this discussion. Could you elaborate? GraniteSand (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

PC is not a "litmus" for anything and I did not suggest it was; again, I was simply making a statement. If you search "PC-ness" in these threads, you will see how I think it fits into the discussion. btw, I added a few words in my last main comment, which I hope makes my point clearer.  :) --P123ct1 (talk) 16:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Sources

• Note most sources also take note of the political nature of the hesitancy to use the groups actual name.
• The New York Times
• BBC
• The Economist
• Reuters
• The Guardian
• The Washington Post
• The Associated Press --Adds qualifier "group" which is an excellent idea, i.e. Islamic State (group)
• NPR --Uses qualifier "self-declared" and ISIS for shorthand after the lede
• Washington Times
• International Business times --With qualifier (group)
• USA Today
• Voice of America and Foreign Policy Magazine

Even amongst these specific links:
BBC: "'ISIS' seems to be the most ubiquitous name"
The Economist - article title: The many names of ISIS (also known as IS, ISIL, SIC and Da'ish)
The Guardian - article title: US to directly arm Kurdish peshmerga forces in bid to thwart Isis offensive
Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:20, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I've read them. I fail to see where you're taking that, though. GraniteSand (talk) 22:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

You have? You are quoting select references that clearly use references like ISIS; that can demonstrate the use of ISIS and not "Islamic State" in the title and that can state: 'ISIS' seems to be the most ubiquitous name. You know that RS use a variety of names yet you still present the single option, 'English language reliable sources using "Islamic State"'. Gregkaye ✍♪ 02:56, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

First result in a search for Islamic State this AM is http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/01/islamic-state-language-isis - titled "Why there’s no such thing as Islamic State". Many other articles using the term similarly qualify the use. Counting results for "Islamic State" will include all results for spelled out ISIS/ISIL etc so don't assume that a count of search results = common name.Legacypac (talk) 15:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Correct, search results are inherently misleading and practically worthless in this context. We must assemble reliable sources speaking on the subject since the name change and determine common usage among those reliable sources. The list above demonstrates such sources doing just that. GraniteSand (talk) 22:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

ISIL/ISIS/"Islamic State"

"Islamic State" is the morally corrupt name of a morally corrupt group. It has all the ambiguity of stating "Government" or similar while suggesting a large yet specific sphere of influence.

• ISIL gets "About 28,000,000 results" with results including those of the likes of Intersil Corp.
• ISIS gets "About 227,000,000 results" note that this will include a number of references to ancient Egyptian religion and a significant number of other organisations and people etc. as partly referenced at Isis (disambiguation). There is also a potential issue here in that "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" is less accurate than "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" but the article currently makes reference to "Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham"

Curiously:

• ISIS got "About 62,100,000 results" with dates "1 Apr 2013 - 'Today'"

while

• ISIS got "About 1,380,000 results" with dates "Before 1 Apr 2013".

Its still a lot of hits.

• "Islamic State" gets "About 59,800,000 results"
• "Islamic State" got "About 18,700,000 results" with dates "1 Apr 2013 - 'Today'"

while

• "Islamic State" got "About 3,460,000 results" with dates "Before 1 Apr 2013".

Another repeatedly mentioned problem with the the groups self-designated title is that there is already a Misplaced Pages article on Islamic state. I have mentioned a potential but personally unfavoured use of Islamic State (Iraq and Levant) which also has the advantages of avoiding the arrogant ambiguity of the self-edited title. Islamic State (group) provides zero disambiguation from other Islamic States that have either come before or which may appear in the future. That title may have use in the context of a news outlet dealing solely with current events but it has no place in an encyclopaedia.

Acronym title formats work for in connection to articles such as: BBC, HIV/AIDS, IBM, NATO, and a wide range of others. The format can work here. Arabic and Muslim communities reject the use of "Islamic State". WP:COMMONNAME indicates that: Misplaced Pages prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural.

• site:www.nytimes.com/ "ISIS" gets "About 220,000 results"
• site:www.nytimes.com/ "Islamic State" gets "About 29,200 results"

Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye Is this a new Talk section or a continuation of GraniteSand's that he opened? Probably best to avoid subsections in Talk discussions, I think. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:07, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. The GraniteSand's thread is disjointed by use of the Sources subheading and I did what I thought best to preserve chronological continuity. I'll move: ISIL/ISIS/"Islamic State" to a level 2 heading.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregkaye (talk • contribs) 10:44, 2 October 2014

Yes, I guessed that is why you had done it! To continue, most of those statistics lump all sources together and it is only the RS sources that we are interested in when looking for the group's WP:COMMONNAME. Global stastistics of that kind won't help especially as ISIS and ISIL refer to other entities as well. Even statistics for "Islamic State" in an individual RS source are no good without a comparison with its use of "ISIS/ISIL". Can you find any more breakdowns for RSs of the kind you found for the NYT? An assessment of the group's common name has been attempted innumerable times on this Talk page in the last few months and each time failed miserably. A proper breakdown of individual RS sources would be needed to come to a sensible conclusion. So far in discussions it has been random sampling, anecdotal evidence and impressions none of which are satisfactory. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

GraniteSand, you were aware of the prevalence of the use of the names ISIL and ISIS as per information presented at Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Alternative_name and this awareness is demonstrated by your 1 October edit of your thread at: Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#How_much_longer_are_we_going_to_avoid_calling_the_Islamic_State_the_Islamic_State.3F. Never-the-less you still presented a single option title as at: Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#English language reliable sources using"Islamic State" since declaration of name change. Are these not examples against WP:NPOV? Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:34, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're asking me. GraniteSand (talk) 23:29, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

GraniteSand, I made a statement. You are also well aware of previous statements statements made regarding the prevalence of the use of ISIL/ISIS. You also quoted a range of articles several of which did not even mention Islamic State in their titles some of which even made statements such as: 'ISIS' seems to be the most ubiquitous name. You know that RS use a variety of names and of the prevalence of the use of acronym based titles and yet you still presented the one sided: English language reliable sources using"Islamic State".

Its not good. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

WP has a word for editors with an agenda. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

@Gregkaye After all that verbiage I'm still unclear what your question is. @P123ct1 No need to be passive aggressive or snide. If you have an accusation to level then, by all means, do so. Still, I would suggest that it would behoove you to be more concise and unambiguous than you have so far. GraniteSand (talk) 08:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay. Manners forbade, but I will say it straight: I think you are a POV-pusher. Your examples were biased and selective and designed to put across a point of view which the evidence does not support. I bow out from this now. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

GraniteSand, You have everything you need to understand my meaning. You knew of the existence of multiple options and you presented one. This is not a balanced or fair approach to take. I don't know what word P123ct1 had in mind but I think that biased, selective and manipulative apply. Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Gregkaye Wow, where to begin? We don't treat search engine results as a reliable source when extrapolating facts, especially when attempting to gauge the notability or veracity of subject or terms, across the project. Even if we did, your metrics are wrong. You're using search parameters more than a year outside the Islamic State's name change. Additionally terminology searched provide inherently unreliable results as ISIS and ISIL both contain "Islamic State" and many articles talking about the proper or preferred use of "Islamic State" include the former terms for context. These search results are categorically worthless.

Your objections to the title change based on existing articles is a technical issue easily fixed by disambiguation pages and is not an excuse to make a move otherwise compliant with policy. Your push for an acronym title is misguided and your corresponding search results for the NYT are as erroneous as the previous search results, for much the same reason. You'll notice that the overwhelming preponderance of sources using "ISIS" use so as a shorthand, only after identifying the group as it's full former name, in the lede. This is not true of your examples.

To reiterate the policy on Misplaced Pages article titles: "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." The subject has changed its name and the way in which we determine usage is by compiling reliable sources who have spoken on the subject since the name change. We don't use loose search results or complain about perceived moral slights, which brings me to my last point. You're leading objection to the use of "Islamic State" as being morally corrupt raises concerns about your paradigm in editing this article. Your angry and unsolicited characterization of the subject of the article as also being morally corrupt, while probably correct, also raises concerns about your state. Both suggest that, in this space, you may be driven more by animosity than a desire to build an article based our core policies. Combined with antagonistic declarations on your user page characterizing religion in general as being an inevitable contributor to insecurity, grief, and insanity leaves me in doubt that you can edit here fairly and without bias. You may want to consider recusing yourself, or even just taking a break, from editing here. GraniteSand (talk) 22:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Gregkaye has made a number of major, useful and objective edits to this page - more than most have in the past week. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:18, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

A good reason not to use Islamic State

According to this BBC article quoting a woman in Mosul "They will cut your tongue out even if you call them Isis - you have to say Islamic State." Legacypac (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't follow your logic. Could you expand on that? GraniteSand (talk) 22:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

"Isis" in their minds means the pagan goddess. Nonsensical - but what do you expect from a bunch of mentally defective terrorists? HammerFilmFan (talk) 00:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

(Pagan? That's POV. The Egyptian religion had a great belief in such concepts as "truth," "justice," and "order" Belief systems held that people would be judged according to the weighing of their souls. Modern religions typically say that people are judged according to adherence to a specific creed. For most people this means that, if you are born into the wrong family, you're screwed. The Egyptian belief may be considered to be relatively fair in comparison. Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC))

One way of looking at this is that using "Islamic State" for ISIL bows to the desires of the terrorists. In examining COMMONNAME we need to look at what RS call it - and not just the news media headlines. (I continue to update this list)

UN - consistently uses ISIL in Security Council documents.

US - Govt and Obama consistently using ISIL. Extreme proof: http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2014/0814_iraq/

Canada is using "The so-called Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant’s (ISIL)" or just ISIL.http://www.international.gc.ca/media/aff/news-communiques/2014/09/15a.aspx?lang=eng

AU PM Tony Abbott said at the UN Security council "To use this term is to dignify a death cult; a death cult that, in declaring itself a caliphate, has declared war on the world," he told the Security Council. Perhaps the realisation is now dawning for all peoples, all cultures and all faiths that it can never be right to kill in the name of God. Countries do need to work together to defeat it because about 80 countries have citizens fighting with ISIL and every country is a potential target."

UK PM Cameron uses the term ISiL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4HDt9PUkeI

France using Daesh

EU The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has adopted a resolution to combat the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL, to establish peace and stability in conflict regions. http://www.aa.com.tr/en/news/398838--pace-calls-for-governments-to-stand-up-against-isil

Russia Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has called for the involvement of the Islamic Republic of Iran in the campaign against the Takfiri ISIL terrorists operating inside Syria and neighboring Iraq. “Iran of course should be part of the efforts to fight ISIL, because Iran is a strong opponent of this group,” Lavrov said http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/28/380328/russia-urges-iran-role-against-isil/

Gulf/Arab states usually use Daesh from everything I've read.

That covers the major part of the English speaking world and a few other key players. Legacypac (talk) 01:57, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that any news organisation that has reporters in front-line regions of Iran, Iraq or Syria can necessarily be considered a reliable source. Sources continue to use a variety of references to the group but remember, this is a group that have been known for killing reporters and for killing people that make reference to Daesh and now ISIS as well. Gregkaye ✍♪ 03:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Would it not be a good idea to keep all discussion on this topic under one heading, instead of having it scattered about in different sections? It would make the discussion much easier to follow. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:59, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

@Legacypac Oh yes, you're right. All those governments utilize the alternate/outdated name. All those governments are also in direct and declared conflict with the Islamic State, a conflict that extends to naming conventions. Independent reliable sources such as the New York Times and the AP have both characterized the listed nations' naming conventions as part of a wider propaganda campaign. Note too that the official apolitical broadcast outlet of the United States uses their actual name "Islamic State" while the political arm of the US government uses "ISIL" which is rejected by independent sources. GraniteSand (talk) 07:53, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It is not an outdated name when it is commonly used to refer to the entity. For an older example Nazi_Party was not their official name, but kind of but not really an acronym. Same with Tory or Republican or KKK - not that these groups are related of course. And ISIL and ISIS are hardly rejected by independent sources. Lots of organizations like the UN Security Council and media worldwide use ISIL, even Fallon uses it. Legacypac (talk) 10:01, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Force for Good

I think Misplaced Pages could be a useful vehicle here, and maybe list some of the various international muslim communities that have condemned ISIS. For example, in the UK there is "not in my name" campaign by British Muslims. Perhaps this information could be placed near the top, so its prominent. This wouldn't be manipulative or untruthful, but it would be useful for people to have this information spelt out to them clearly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.43.249 (talk) 01:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encylopaedia, not an arm of the media or an information service. But a section dealing with criticisms of the Islamic State has already been proposed and this could go into that. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC) (See next section --P123ct1 (talk))

If I add this will it be considered breach of the 1RR? I don't f'ing understand how that procedure works. Could someone else add it in my name please. Thanks. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 12:08, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

To Why should I have a User Name?: If it has been at least 24 hours since you last edited the article, then you should feel free to edit it again. Even if your edit is construed as a reversion of someone else's edit, that would not be a violation of 1RR which limits you to one reversion per 24 hour period per affected article (i.e. articles on the Syrian civil war). JRSpriggs (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Why should I have a User Name? On an earlier Talk page I drew up this guidance on what a revert is, as I think most of us have been baffled about this rule at some stage. Dougweller, the admin on this page, seems to have approved that list. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

No I agree that its not an arm of the media etc, but I think its noteworthy to include that many Islamic organisations have condemned this action. The fact that it will also be of humanitarian benefit is just a very positive additional benefit of having such a section. Just without the criticism section, people reading up on ISIS may have the false conclusion that this is supported by the majority of Muslims, so information by omission of such a sensitive nature is all the more crucial in this instance - especially when it seems that a large part of ISIS campaign is to cause a Muslim/non-Muslim divide; would be a shame for wikipedia to play even a small role in propagating that :)

Thanks for the civilised discussions here btw - I've already had a mod that I fell out with on a previous article come to my page and lay down the law regarding this, so thankfully you guys are seeing the bigger picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.43.249 (talk) 15:37, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

87.115.43.249 You will have seen I opened a new section (see next discussion) after your first comment, because I agree that the Muslim opposition to ISIL is a very important topic to cover. I foresee this new "Criticism" section will grow fast, now that Muslim communities and the international community are voicing their criticisms more and more loudly. Unfortunately, I cannot see where this new section could go in the article to give it more prominence. The history of the group and what is doing now naturally has to be covered first, including the human rights abuses, to explain the contents of the "Criticism" section. This is why it comes fairly low down in the article. There was certainly no intention to "bury" the information. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:06, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

No that's excellent, and I don't think anyone was intentionally burying this information (sorry if I sounded accusatory at all - was not my intention!), I just felt it was an important inclusion for the purpose of balance which led onto the wider reasons I mentioned.. Thanks again for the discussion and the edit. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.43.249 (talk) 18:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

No, you weren't accusing, but I have been accused of it by another editor, hiding the controversy over the name. Nothing was further from my mind. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Territory seized and controlled by ISIL

A tricky technical point has arisen. How is land seized and controlled by an unrecognised state described? The Islamic State is described as an "unrecognized state" in the Lead. How should the land it claims for its new caliphate be described? Is the correct description "occupied territory"? --P123ct1 (talk) 16:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Good question. The term "unrecognized state" is actually linked to Lists_of_active_separatist_movements and ISIL is on the List_of_active_rebel_groups#Groups_which_control_territory so "controlled" and "occupied" or "occupied territories" seems reasonable. ISIL is the largest rebel army controlling the largest geographic area and population, and the only one spanning two countries in the world right now (Eastern Ukraine being a possible exception). Perhaps we should change "unrecognized state" to something better - I've almost done that already but fear a revert war. ISIL is (correctly) not on the List_of_states_with_limited_recognition but the term unrecognized state suggests that they should be. I can't come up with a better term other than terrorist organization Legacypac (talk) 16:56, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Reworking the Lead

(new heading to attract attention to this continuing discussion)

Legacypac So far the article has "ISIL-controlled territory". Probably safest to keep to that, I think, for consistency if nothing else. There was some discussion about "unrecognised state" edit some time back, which I don't remember, so probably best not to edit it without putting it to the Talk page first. I have no view on what it should be. It is already called a "terrorist organisation" in the Lead, of course. Btw, I was going to add a sentence before yours at the end of the Lead and run it into yours this way:

"There has been much debate worldwide about the legitimacy of these moves, and no government and very few Muslims will acknowledge the name "Islamic State" owing to its far-reaching political and religious authority implications."

I wanted to get in that there is this debate about the legitimacy of what ISIL has done. Is that okay by you? --P123ct1 (talk) 17:27, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't like that change because unlike many things that are debated, all parties (except ISIL, a handful of terror groups that have pledged to them, and some media organizations) reject the name. I don't think your addition says anything more than what is there now, just with more words. I remain open to discussion though. Legacypac (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Much of the widespread criticism of the group from Muslims and the international community is about the legitimacy of the Islamic State and the caliphate. Their rejection of the name "Islamic State" is a part of that wider criticism. Your wording covers the name rejection, mine shows what it stems from. Simples. But I'm not fussed, my edit can stay out. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Ah I see what you are driving at - maybe we can wordsmith something stronger to that point. There is plenty to criticise. Maybe the name issue should be a subheading along with beheadings and sexual assaults and kidnapping kids (which might be missing) etc. Might want to rename the section. In the lead we could say something like

"ISIL's very existence and nearly all its actions are viewed by the international community as a threat to peace and security. No government and very few Muslims will acknowledge the name "Islamic State" owing to its far-reaching political and religious authority implications." Someone else want to take a crack at this? The only thing they have done that anyone other than their terrorist brothers would approve of is fighting Assad. Legacypac (talk) 04:07, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

That end para has been replaced by a wonderfully woolly one from an editor who is probably oblivious of this Talk page discussion. The sentence does not hang together properly and makes no logical sense. --P123ct1 (talk) 06:43, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Ya, I fixed it some, along with the first paragraph which someone unhelpfully again took out the self declared part. Below is where it stands at the moment. Maybe with a little more editing to the first and second paragraphs we can cut the last paragraph of the lead?

The self-declared Islamic State (IS; Template:Lang-ar al-Dawlah al-Islāmīyah), which previously called itself and is internationally known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL /ˈaɪsəl/) or the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS /ˈaɪsɪs/; Template:Lang-ar al-Dawlah al-Islāmīyah fī al-ʻIraq wa-al-Shām) and by the Arabic acronym Dāʻish (داعش), is an unrecognized state and a Sunni jihadist group active in Iraq and Syria in the Middle East. In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide, and aims to bring most Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its political control, beginning with territory in the Levant region, which includes Syria, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus, and part of southern Turkey.

The group has been described by the United Nations and the media as a terrorist group, and has been designated as a foreign terrorist organization by the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Turkey, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia. The United Nations and Amnesty International have accused the group of grave human rights abuses.

(3 history paragraphs then)

Due to ISIL's claim that it holds a certain "supreme/ultimate" political and religious authority over all others, no government, and in fact very few Muslims worldwide will acknowledge the "Islamic State" name, or its apparent aspirations to such a domination over all others. Therefore Arab countries and Muslim media outlets typically tend to refer to the group simply as Da-ish or ISIS while the United Nations and nearly all Western nations use the acronym ISIL.

1. The group is widely known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), alternately called the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and the Islamic State of Iraq and ash-Sham (referring to Greater Syria; Template:Lang-ar al-Dawlah al-Islāmīyah fī al-ʻIrāq wa-al-Shām). The group is also known by the Arabic acronym DAʿESH (Template:Lang-ar Dāʻish). These names continue to be used.

1. Ferran, Lee; Momtaz, Rym. "ISIS: Trail of Terror". ABC News. Retrieved 14 September 2014.
2. "داعش تعلن تأسيس دولة الخلافة وتسميتها "الدولة الإسلامية" فقط دون العراق والشام والبغدادي أميرها وتحذر "لا عذر لمن يتخلف عن البيعة". Arabic CNN. 29 June 2014. Retrieved 31 July 2014 (Google translation available.). {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
3. "Isis rebels declare 'Islamic state' in Iraq and Syria". BBC News. 30 June 2014. Retrieved 30 June 2014.
4. "What is ISIS? — The Short Answer". The Wall Street Journal. 12 June 2014. Retrieved 15 June 2014.
5. "Security Council concerned about illicit oil trade as revenue for terrorists in Iraq, Syria". UN News Centre. 28 July 2014. Retrieved 17 August 2014.

Legacypac (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the Lead as it stands up until the last para should be disturbed, as there is a flow there. More importantly, that last para, on criticism of the group's aspirations and its name, I think follows on smoothly from the para before about the establishment of the caliphate, since it is describing how the world has reacted to that event - it continues the chronological sequence. To work it in earlier wouldn't make sense, because the criticism follows that last event. In a way, the last para is "And this is what the world said", as in that game of "Consequences" if anyone remembers that!

So in other words, my view on the current shape of the Lead is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The real task is to fix that last paragraph. --P123ct1 (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Copy of letter sent to British Broadsheets and Reuters

Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:18, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

WD, Gregkaye. Those are exactly the kind of intra-RS results that I thought would be more helpful than random surveys by editors, to guage name usage. Who did this survey? You say "Copy of a letter", but I see no letter. The results are quite revealing, aren't they? Is it possible to do this for some American RSs? --P123ct1 (talk) 18:08, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Well done indeed - reuters.com the fount of news everywhere, has signed on to "Islamic State" regardless of what the UN or any country calls them. Legacypac (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess I need to improve my letter writing skills. I did the searches, wrote a summary, looked up some addresses and sent it off. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:37, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Brilliant! Can you do some for US RSs? These are the best kind of results to help guage usage. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:09, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

TY - I'm not familiar with the term - sounds good tho . Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:09, 6 October 2014 (UTC) @P123ct1:

Disruptive edits

User:Atifabbasi8 has first brought a money unit from an unreliable source and without sources invented two 'official languages' and later when I removed the so-called official languages has come back to revert that and passing by to remove a citation needed tag without any explanation. Therefore they have made use of not reliable sources, addition without sources, removal of a tag without explanation and a violation of the 1RR rule. Which admin is going to warn them and who is going to revert their disruptive edits? Thanks. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 18:42, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

I wonder how long Jihadi John and other fighters will be willing to fight if their pay comes in ISIL dinars? I reverted it Legacypac (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Now this https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant&diff=628242520&oldid=628242261 edit is inappropriate, needs to be reverted. Not discussed on the talk page. Legacypac (talk) 20:10, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Lol! To quote an admin: "The beauty of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit it. The tragedy of Misplaced Pages is that anyone can edit it." --P123ct1 (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Gave editor a 1RR block. Dougweller (talk) 11:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Spain is supplying weapons to the Iraqi Army

According to this news article, Spain's contribution to the Coalition is to give weapons to the Iraqi Army, among other material, and the use of Spanish bases by NATO allies. Spain also may send advisors:

http://www.abc.es/internacional/20140924/abci-espana-coalicion-internacional-201409231842.html

I'd have updated the article myself, but I am not an expert on Misplaced Pages and I don't know how can I do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felino123 (talk • contribs) 16:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Felino123, according to that news Spain is ready to provide (sell) arms to Iraq. Good for them, in these times of crisis. As far as I know, there is no limitation for arms sales to Iraq, so they are only announcing themselves as a provider; that is not much of a help to the coalition indeed. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 16:43, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Flames of War

I think the section "Propaganda and social media" should be updated with info about the hour-long ISIS' propaganda movie in English called "Flames of War", mentioning the English-speaking American-accented terrorist who narrates.

Sources:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/19/world/meast/isis-flames-of-war-video/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-release-flames-of-war-video-warning-obama-of-attacks-troops-could-face-in-iraq-9737621.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2759299/ISIS-releases-Hollywood-style-propaganda-video-response-US-plans-deploy-troops-Iraq-threatening-fighting-just-begun.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762864/Does-ISIS-U-S-jihadist-ranks-Masked-man-American-accent-star-ISIS-latest-propaganda-film-Flames-War.html

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-releases-flames-war-blockbuster-style-propaganda-film-1466428

The full video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XZ3ovDxhw4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felino123 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I have not done any personal work on section "Propaganda and social media" and think it would be worth considering similarities or differences between this video and those that have gone before. The beginning of the video places significant focus on "lies". Not mentioned here was the original excuse for the second invasion of Iraq being on the basis of "weapons of mass destruction". At the other extreme, even in Misplaced Pages, I felt the need to add this: Talk:Muslim#Honesty. I think truth and honesty, responsibility and the representation of identity can clearly all be casualties of both war and religion. I don't provisionally think that we should place too much focus on accusations but would prefer to support emphasis on representations of proven wrongs of any of the groups involved. Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:58, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Designation as a terrorist organization

Someone has added France, Germany, Poland and Denmark to the countries which have designated ISIL as a terrorist organisation - in the Lead, though not in the infobox in section 3 - but this edit mysteriously does not appear in the Edit Summaries. I have had to remove these countries as no citations were provided. Could the editor provide citations in support of their edit, please? It would be best to put them here on the Talk page to be looked at first, as there has been quite a bit of difficulty over the suitability of citations for some of the countries in section 3. A designation of this kind is a formal government process and quite different from a country simply saying that it regards a group as terrorists. --P123ct1 (talk) 18:36, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

"self-declared" caliphate, there is no caliphate ever that wasn't "self-declared" and without muslim opposition exept in muhammad life

every caliphate after muhammad has fighted against other caliphates all the centuries untile the last caliphate of the 20th century. so there is no real reason for that line of "self-declared" other than the will of the writer to make the islamic state look less legitimate than other caliphate while there is no any logic nor religious differences between them.

by the way i am far from being a supporter of them, i am atheist. --109.65.50.252 (talk) 21:38, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Bravo. That historical truth (if such it is) should put an end to this "self-declared" nonsense (apologies to editors).

--P123ct1 (talk) 23:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

(Bravo for being an atheist or... :)? Sorry for my late entry. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

An interesting article on an actual Islamic interpretation of khalifah is found at http://islamic-world.net/khalifah/definition.htm Various objections can be raised against the ISIL claims of Caliphate. The article has long had words such as claimed in connection to Caliphate and this concurs with questions related to ISILs representation of Islam as raised by Muslims worldwide. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:51, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The first para of the Lead is becoming comical now, fairly bristling with its qualifications. Why can't Misplaced Pages just report on the facts in the Lead, and deal with the qualifications in the body of the article, showing there exactly why there are these objections to the facts? I opened the "Criticism" section with just that in mind. If I was reading this article for the first time, on reading the first para I would think either (a) "Why are they so hesitant?" or (b) "Come on, spit it out!" --P123ct1 (talk) 12:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ This is a digression - the main thread resumes below
Comment on digression: Well saved. My reply concerns more general issues which should have personally marked as a digression had I thought it through. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

P123ct1 From my perspective the trouble is that, for various reasons, we are sticking with an outdated article title. I also appreciate that I've contributed a significant influence in maintaining it. In Arabic they may have a bit more use of the full title with a general preference for Da'esh but in English ISIS, Islamic State and ISIL are the prevalent terms. Given that our title goes against the grain I think that the qualifiers "self-declared" and "which previously called itself" at least help to explain the situation. In regard to the rest of the content I think that there are strengths in showing caution, fools rush in and all that.

It would certainly be more comfortable if there was a situation where we could dispense with the current plethora of qualifying statements but my view is that the responsibility lies with the group and for them to sort themselves out. I think that it is as much the situation as anything that is unsettling. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

My problem with the qualifiers is that they seem to me to fly in the face of facts - he was appointed caliph, they did establish a caliphate, they were previously known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, whether we like or not! Qualifications and objections can be dealt with in the "Criticisms" section - which I fear may become ginormous at this rate" :) --P123ct1 (talk) 17:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ :the "terms" for the legitimacy of caliphate(along with "the Pledge of Allegece of 'the People'" which basicaly can be everybody, anybody or nobody according to the situation) as this article claim:

"

1. The defence and maintainance of religion

2. The decision of legal dispute

3. The protection of territory of Islam

4. The punishment of the wrong doers

5. The provision of troop for guarding the frontiers

6. The waging of Jihad againts the Kafir Harbi

7. The organization and collection pf zakat

8. The payment of salery and administration of public fund

9. The appointment of competent officials

10. Personal attention to the detail of the government

"

and the "terms" for being a caliph:

"

1. He must be a man.

2. He must be knowledgeable in Islaam, and be able to make independent decisions if necessary.

3. He must be just, have good morals, and be trustworthy.

4. He must be physically able (non-handicapped), spiritual, brave, and helpful to protect the Ummah against its enemies. His eyes, ears, tongue, and body in general should be in working condition.Today, for example, an artificial limb could be used to offset an otherwise crippling injury.

5. He must be politically, militarily, and administratively experienced.

6. He must be from The Tribe of Quraish because they used to be the leading tribe, the majority.

"

abu bakr al-baghdadi and his caliphate didn't fall from those terms which are mostly too subjective and general like "he must be just, have good morals, and be trustworthy"(like killing people in the name of imaginery being is justice and moral...) and are pretty pointless even without the fact that according to this article if the khalifa already seized power and "meet his responsibilities under Islam" he should be just accepted as khalifa and it is haram to fight against him.

so basicaly the difference between "real caliphate" and "self-declared caliphate" are 100% subjective.

the only reason for the resistance for a caliphate today in the arab world is because that caliphates today will damage the arab nationalism and imperialism by destroying "arab nationalities" and goverments which form what we call today the "arab world".

and the US and other western countries doesn't want that those goverments will fall so they need to delegitimize and demonize the islamic state before they launch an attack on them in order to defence the good old goverments which they know and prefer over the islamic state.

and of course both the arabs and western countries need to seperate the "extermist terrorists" in the islamic state from other "real caliphates" which the moderate muslims can't renounce. --109.65.50.252 (talk) 14:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I am not from NYC but I agree with the reasoning of Jason from nyc. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 14:59, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc: (a) The plain fact is that he was appointed caliph, on 29 June 2014, and WP can only report facts, per NPOV. (b) You say RS sources say he is self-appointed, which is true, they do, and you imply WP can follow those sources, adopt the same view and can directly call him self-appointed (as the Lead does). RS sources call ISIS terrorists. But WP cannot say that directly, it can only report that others call them that, (following WP:NPOV), hence the careful "terrorist" wording in the Lead that editors thrashed out some time back. Does not the same argument apply here? Can WP call him self-appointed in its own voice, just because RS sources do? That is my objection to WP saying directly in the Lead, or anywhere for that matter, that he "is self-appointed". Following the same argument as was had over "terrorist", WP can only report what RSs and others have said, not say it in its own voice. Following RSs to find WP:COMMONNAME is quite different; that is about name, not facts, and the one time it is justified to follow reliable sources. That is how I see it anyhow. Sorry to be so purist about it! :)--P123ct1 (talk) 16:46, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure I follow. We say "self-proclaimed" in the article as a fact. We're not saying the NYT (for example) reports IS is a "self-proclaimed" caliphate. We say IS is a "self-proclaimed" caliphate in our own voice. We're not saying it is a caliphate in our own voice nor are we saying the NYT acknowledges it is a caliphate. We and they report how IS sees itself. Now is it in fact a caliphate? First let me remind everyone that I argued above that IS is in fact a state. I wrote much of the "Governance" section showing it is a functioning state. I even argued that there should be a separate Wiki article on the state. I could argue that it is in fact a theocracy. But a caliphate? The facts don't support that. If al-Bahdadi declared himself emir and IS an emirate, that might be considered a fact. But a caliphate is like a super-state and many an emir hesitated to declare such a vaulted status until their power was sufficient. al-Baghdadi is arrogant but without sufficient power he is met with sizable contempt. We'd best try to agree on more humble claims as facts in WP voice before we use the description caliphate without limiting qualifications. Are we close to agreeing or far apart? Jason from nyc (talk) 22:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

"criticism by over 120 Islamic theological leaders worldwide" we are talking her about religion with pretty simple rules and story, it isn't a deep and accurate science which can have multiple opinions with only one correct opinion. islam like any other religion is a story which is subjected to POV and assumptions about fictional and inaccurate events. those islamic leaders are leaders not because of some knowledge and didn't got their opinion about the islamic state from some "research" of the quran or something like that, they are religios leaders but also a political one who gain there status and authority with not less politics as with knowledge about islam.

so if they had some "theological claim" against the islamic state legitimacy of being "real caliphate" we all could her about that, especialy the muslims scholars who wrote the article i quoted before.

the article i quoted before also have strict defenition of "caliphate" so there is no need to demand from the islamic state to fit into the unrealistic image of a caliphate of some people. there is simply no religious differences between the islamic state caliphate and other caliphates which had existed just some decades ago in the 20th century so there is no need for acting like there is. the "self-declared" is nothing more than a PR act of making the reader to believe in some non-existing theological differences between isis and other caliphates while islamic scholars just simply can't provide any of this. --109.65.50.252 (talk) 22:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

When you say there are no differences between IS and other caliphates, I'm not sure which ones you have in mind: Rashidun (632–661), Umayyads (661–750), Caliphate (929–1031) of Córdoba, Abbasids (750–1258), Fatimids (909–1171), Ottomans (1453–1924)? Jason from nyc (talk) 23:53, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The three possible reasons for a discrepancy in the use of references are: 1, there is a difference in topic between the articles; 2, this article has got its referencing wrong and 3, the other article topics may have got things wrong. Hat tip to editors above for investigation into issues. The question is whether we can speak in Misplaced Pages's voice in this article and declare them a caliphate. If other articles need adjusting then that would be a different problem. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

To me "self-proclaimed" suggests a point of view, it implies dispute over legitimacy. The simple fact is that they proclaimed a caliphate and appointed al-Baghdadi as caliph, full stop. That fact should be reported accurately and neutrally by WP, as per NPOV. It really isn't complicated. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

We do say "they proclaimed" themselves a caliphate. The question is does proclaiming yourself one make you one. You seem to think so as you argue below in the "Mr. Smith" example. Caliphate isn't just a name. If I proclaim myself a genius and make it my middle name, I don't become one. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:31, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc: The Lead says "they proclaimed" a caliphate and in the same breath says "in its self-proclaimed status as caliphate", to be accurate. Former is neutral, latter is not. The point is that WP should make no judgments and just record facts: they "proclaimed a caliphate". Whether proclaiming one makes it one is an interesting question, but it is none of WP's business to dwell on sophistries like that. It's chop logic. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

You wouldn't say, "He calls himself Mr Smith", you would say "His name is Mr Smith". The former suggests there is some doubt about his name. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:13, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

That is no answer and misses the point. Everybody calls them terrorists, nobody denies it. But WP cannot say it directly, per NPOV. There were long discussions over this, which is why the Lead "terrorist" references are carefully worded as they are. It is rightly said indirectly, as in "X, Y and Z say it". It is the same with legitimacy. Of course everyone disputes it, but it can only be reported by WP, not said in its own words. I simply cannot believe this very basic NPOV principle isn't recognized. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree on "terrorist." But there are some things that can be said in WP voice. I'd argue that neither "terrorist" nor "caliphate" are. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:31, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Can see I'm getting nowhere. Time to move on, I think. The main thing is that any words in WP's voice should be value-free and strictly reports. --P123ct1 (talk) 12:37, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Your work is vital here but we'll have to "agree to disagree" on this issue even if I don't quite see how we disagree. Jason from nyc (talk) 13:30, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

(i am 109.65.50.252) jason, i think you should tell us more about your reasons and answer few question like

1.how you differ "self-declared" caliphate from "real" caliphate and what isis needs for being "real" caliphate?.

2.do you believe in islam and god mandate for any kind of "caliphate"?.

3.do you want to keep refering them as "self declared" caliphate cause that what you think they are or cause you fear that refering them as "real" caliphate will help their PR?. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

(i am GREGKAYE, "caliph" of my own existence and supreme commander of my fridge.

I am also not a number and, like many of the editors here, I additionally have interests away from the ISIL article).

As I was the editor that noticed the removal of the previously used "claimed" references in the infoboxes and who replaced them with the self-declared type texts I feel at ease to attempt to answer those intrusive questions of yours.

1) I'm not to sure. I checked and discovered things like a caliph was meant to be a "successor" and that immediately set off my integrity alarm. Theologically speaking I am not sure if any of the later Caliphates are real, legitimate or even possible. These are questions that are up for debate.

2) f**k no, not that it matters. Belief is no issue in regard to the analysis of scriptural/theological mandates of anything. If anything disbelief may have significant advantages in regard to the development of rational interpretations of texts. As far as belief is concerned my personal conviction is that we would be better off with Isis, "... ideal mother and wife as well as the patroness of nature and magic. ... friend of slaves, sinners, artisans and the downtrodden," who "also listened to the prayers of the wealthy, maidens, aristocrats and rulers.."

3) I want to state the facts to every extent that I am able. Fear? I fear for people on both sides of this unnecessary, shitty conflict who will lose loved ones, liberty, life, health and hope. I fear for an attitude that may say we can lose a life because we can just breed more. I fear for morality. I fear for what it tells people when innocent aid workers get murdered. Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

"intrusive"? what is intrusive in asking somebody why he think in a certain way?.

anyway if you aren't sure about if the islamic state is different from former caliphates it obviously means that the editors should reffer to them as any other caliphate if they didn't notice any difference themselves.

i know that ISIS are "extremists" and fanatic "terrorists" and that it look like their declarations shouldn't be taken seriously, but at the end this is exactly what muhammad and the caliphates was: "extremists" who killed and conquered in the name of imaginary entity, this is the meaning of "caliphate". and the only "difference" that can be pointed is the mandate of god for those action to the former caliphates and the lack of it to the current caliphate of the 21th, this is why i asked jason if he believes in islam and in the right by god for the estublishment of the former caliphates. --109.65.50.252 (talk) 23:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Not that I really want to prolong this, but while we (Jason from nyc and self) both agree "caliphate" can't be used in WP's voice, we clearly have a different view on what calling it a caliphate outright (or al-Baghadi caliph) - as in "they proclaimed a caliphate" - actually means. It's the old POV/NPOV dilemma, of course: are those words NPOV (objective, as I think), or POV, because that looks like endorsement? I know I've been upbraided for bringing up PC-ness, but I do think a lot of the hedged-about wording in the Lead makes WP look as if it is trying to be PC and follow the world's opinion rather than be objective, though Gregkaye made a good point when he said we inherited a bad situation in this article (with names) and have to do our best. --P123ct1 (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

• Beyond theological interpretations, legitimate and typically structurally related descriptions of governments include -

by Power structure: Confederation, Federation, Hegemony, Empire, Unitary state

by Power source: Autocracy, Authoritarianism, Despotism, Dictatorship, Totalitarianism, Democracy, Direct democracy, Representative democracy, others, Monarchy, Absolute monarchy, Constitutional monarchy, Oligarchy, Aristocracy, Military junta, Plutocracy, Stratocracy, Timocracy

Other: Anarchy, Anocracy, Kritarchy, Particracy, Republic, Theocracy

Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:23, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Animated GIF showing territorial evolution

We should have an animated GIF showing the territorial evolution of this group over time, similar to this one for the Rashidun caliphate here:

It wouldn't be that hard to do, we could just blend all the maps we've posted so far as slides, adding dates in the corner as show. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 23:14, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

God help us all if ISIL sees that kind of success. People keep debating what color the desert should be on the maps ... Legacypac (talk) 08:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I am sure that they are not short of statements regarding any areas progress that may have been achieved. Success is an interesting word. Some of them will regard their own military deaths as signs of success. I don't personally have an opinion one way or the other with regard to the inclusion of these maps. We are not here to Censor and one advantage of publishing the time framed maps is that it might provide a clearer indication of ways that historical incursions into the related territories may have fucked up. ISIL HAVE HAD a rapid expansion which I believe has slowed and in some places been reversed but the actual nature of the facts is an irrelevance. I don't see an intrinsic problem with maps. "God", however, may be a different story. It may be argued that he or she has caused enough problems already. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:43, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

IS' territory changed in daily basis so i believe animation is inapplicable in this situation. kazekagetr 17:24, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Can anyone help with a personal question?

Videos and propaganda by Islamic extremists that I seen have tended to describe the United States as America. What are the ways/ is the way that the UK is described?

Thanks

Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

cn tag in Lead

An editor reasonably attached a "citation needed" tag to the last para of the Lead which has been removed here, with a cryptic edit summary: "remove cn tag - it is a negative statement, please provide evidence otherwise". What does this mean? It makes no difference whether it is a negative or a positive statement, it is quite a strong statement which needs backing up. --P123ct1 (talk) 10:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I removed it. There are 190+ countries in the world. None have recognized the "Islamic State" which is why we call it an unrecognized state. It's been recognized by a bunch of terrorists though. Since there seems to be some uncertianty I'll insert this ref

1. http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/2014/07/syria-iraq-isis-islamic-caliphate-global-recognition.html#
2. http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/islamic-state-isis-may-not-be-a-recognized-nation-but-it-controls-a-population-larger-than-ireland-140816?news=853987

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Legacypac (talk • contribs) 19:41, 7 October 2014‎

I've updated the last paragraph of the lead with a well cited one. There were so many cite and other tags in there you would think it what we wrote was all lies. I don't mind the alternate wording in use either, but worked off line with what was the wording when I grabbed the text for sandbox. Legacypac (talk) 20:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

An RM to ISIS?

Obviously it would just be a request which could then be debated but I thought it best to check provisional views. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:07, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

No. Please stop. There is no need to be constantly debating the title. Leave it well alone. We've had enough move requests already. RGloucester — ☎ 17:50, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

See my comment when making the last RM close. I suggested that there is a moratorium on requested moves for 3 months (until the new year). There comes a point where continual debate over the name of an article becomes DISRUPTIVE and I think that now there have seven requests this year with four requests in the last two months, and many other sections taken up with discussions about the name, that point has been reached. It becomes disruptive when editors time is taken up in endless debates over the name, when the limited time that editors have can better be spent improving this and other articles. Consensus can change, but it is unlikely to change in such a short period, so wait until after the new year then if an editor thinks that usage in reliable sources justifies a request then make one. In the mean time If I think that editors are being disruptive over this issue then I will take administrative action under the general sanctions that apply to this page. -- PBS (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I was one of the ones making an RM request, but now ( and before reading the above the suggestion) I do think there needs to be a 60+ day moratorium on move requests. WP:TITLECHANGES says "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." One good reason not to change it is because all previous attempts have not gained consensus. This moratorium should only apply to article renaming, not uses of names in the article itself.~Technophant (talk) 03:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Usually the name used in an article title is used within an article (because the MOS favours consistency). In this case there has been a recent discussion held "#Proposed move from "ISIS" to "ISIL" in the article text" over whether to use "ISIS" to "ISIL" within the article. I suggest that you add your view to that section. -- PBS (talk) 13:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies to editors

I have messed up a revert I tried to do. I tried to revert and in the process reverted to a much earlier version of the page! Don't know quite how it happened. I have made a list of editors' missing edits and am putting them back in. Sorry! --P123ct1 (talk) 20:59, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

You need to be dragged off to ANi, sanctioned, called nasty names everywhere for sweeping undiscussed edits and placed in stocks so we can throw rotten tomatoes at you. Good job on the major cleanup - obviously a lot of thought and effort went into it. Cheers Legacypac (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I haven't done many yet! There are 13 to do! Doesn't help that the UTC has "jumped" an hour since I started the clean-up. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:12, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Finished. I hope I haven't left anyone's edit out! --P123ct1 (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: Was it you who industriously put all those citatations in the last para of the Lead? We are supposed to be reducing footnotes in the Lead as much as possible, so they would be better going into the same sentence in the "Criticism of the "Islamic State"" section. There was a discussion in the Talk page archives about this here. I hope the editor who drastically edited the Lead (which is the revert I was trying to make originally) has taken note of my edit summary, where I said edits to the Lead should be proposed on the Talk page first. I would imagine this editor is oblivious of all the careful discussion that has gone into the Lead wording. :{ --P123ct1 (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes because the lead was filled with cite needed and dubious tags. While I don't like all the refs there either, some editors can't be bothered to check the article for the refs. Legacypac (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I did not notice you had edited the lead while I was preparing the one with cites. However the problem is the same.Legacypac (talk) 23:09, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't have been an edit by me, but a restoration of another editor's. Hope I haven't messed up again! --P123ct1 (talk) 23:33, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Things are ok at the moment, but we should watch it. I deleted the what tags in the first paragraph. I did not dig deep enough to find who added the tags originally but you restored them before I deleted them. The article explains that the group is Sunni and Muslim, we don't need to prove that in the lead right? Legacypac (talk) 00:12, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I was not criticizing at all; those citations were badly needed, though best in the body of the article. But I don't think a citation is needed for Sunni Muslim, for as you say the article deals with this. I restored the edits without considering them, so some may have been unnecessary. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I added the exact same cites to the same sentence in the article too. Its not so much for the reader as for the editors benefit up in the lead. Oh and someone thought that BOTH Sunni and Muslim needed citations in the lead in the same sentence. Legacypac (talk) 08:41, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Lede could use some trimming

The discussion of its history alone is as long as some ledes. --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:51, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

An editor just inserted this in the last paragraph of the lead, with a source behind a paywall. I'd like to see some quantitative data to back up this claim. I think that we have found a variety of terms used in the English media.

"As of mid-September 2014, many of the most prominent English-language news media groups, including the BBC, New York Times, The Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, Reuters, and the Associated Press used the name the "Islamic State", while others stuck with ISIS and ISIL."

Legacypac (talk) 04:22, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The Lead is becoming rather long. I am wondering if the last para on names really belongs in the Lead; perhaps it should be added to "History of names". It won't lose prominence, as this is the first section of the article. I don't think the extra edit is needed at all. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:54, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

If we could keep it to a sentence it should stay in the lead, but some editors dont like it, add to it, insist on more detail etc. I try to think of the uninvolved reader looking for info. Does the reader care about the 25 names the group has used over 15 years and the sequence? Likely not, and therefore there is too much in the lead about it. Many readers have got to be wondering why CNN, the POTUS and their morning paper dont call ISIL the same thing, and might turn to WP for the answer. They should not need to read through long lists of arabic names and history that frankly few car about to find out why the variety of current names used.Legacypac (talk) 08:42, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Any subject like this simply has to deal with the history, and the variety of names is very much part of it in this instance. I don't think we can assume what readers might be interested in. However, I agree that the history paras of the Lead could be condensed considerably. I will see if I can do it and put it on the Talk page for agreement. I don't see how readers would have to plough through all the "History of names" subsection, if the current name controversy was clearly marked in it. Readers don't read everything and they can skim and skip the earlier parts. Perhaps as you say there should at least be a sentence or two about it in the Lead, but no more than that. What do you think about moving the names business away from "Criticism of the "Islamic State"" and into the "Names" section? It would give it the prominence it deserves if was at the beginning of the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:21, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes we need history which includes the names, just brainstorming a way to be more concise. Moving it into Names might be ok, but as a reader the heading "Criticism of the "Islamic State"" jumps out as interesting, while a detailed history of group names (do they have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder over the group name?) seems tedious to read. Legacypac (talk) 09:39, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

If it does go into the "Criticism of the "Islamic State"", I think it will need highlighting. Perhaps under its own subsection? Readers don't have to read what they won't want to read, and believe it or not, the "Names" section has already been pared down! (I did it some weeks ago.) From the beginning I found the "Names" section very useful, for getting a grip on ISIL's history, for at each stage of its development it has had a name change. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac: I see that last para in the Lead has been summarily removed, in mid-discussion about what to do about it! --P123ct1 (talk) 11:49, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I have cut down the history paras as much as possible to reduce the size of the Lead. There is a limit to how much can be cut out, as the Lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. --P123ct1 (talk) 13:31, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I saw that too - with an edit summary that it duplicated material in the body. With that logic why do we need anything in the lead exactly. Legacypac (talk) 05:20, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The 2nd and 3rd paragraph of the lead could be combined with the final paragraph to read:

The group's original aim was to establish an Islamic state in the Sunni-majority regions of Iraq, and following ISIL's involvement in the Syrian Civil War this expanded to include controlling Sunni-majority areas of Syria. A caliphate was proclaimed on 29 June 2014, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi—now known as Amir al-Mu'minin Caliph Ibrahim—was named as its caliph, and the group was renamed the Islamic State. As caliphate it claims religious authority over all Muslims. Muslims around the world widely reject its claims and condemn its actions. The group has been described by the United Nations and the media as a terrorist group, and has been designated as a foreign terrorist organization by the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Israel, Turkey, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia. The United Nations and Amnesty International have accused the group of grave human rights abuses.

The blue text is the original last paragraph. The black sums up the Islamic criticism in the body of the article. The green is the 3rd paragraph summing up worldwide criticism in general. This could trim the lead substantially and leave the full exposition to the body of the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 18:39, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The blue text differs substantially from the second paragraph and seems of similar length. It read: "In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide, and aims to bring most Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its political control, beginning with the region of the Levant which approximately covers Syria, Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus, and part of southern Turkey."

To what extent are ISIL acting as a liberation army? A lack of mention of other governments but just of Sunni majorities may be taken to indicate that this is their role. Also, in the west when we speak of majorities and minorities we do so within the general understanding of equal rights and equal opportunities for all. This won't be the case under Baghdadi's regime. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I put one too many sentence is blue (now fixed). The two sentences "As caliphate it claims religious authority over all Muslims. Muslims around the world widely reject its claims and condemn its actions." was meant to replace "In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide, and aims to bring most Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its political control, beginning with the region of the Levant which approximately covers Syria, Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus, and part of southern Turkey." The last paragraph already mentioned "a caliphate was proclaimed" so that means we can leave out the duplicate "As self-proclaimed status as a caliphate" in the second paragraph that I suggest be removed. The last paragraph mentions "aim was to establish an Islamic state in the Sunni-majority regions of Iraq, and following ISIL's involvement in the Syrian Civil War this expanded to include controlling Sunni-majority areas of Syria" which covers some of "aims to bring most Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its political control, beginning with the region of the Levant which approximately covers Syria, Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus, and part of southern Turkey." This seems to condense and remove repetitions. Perhaps we can avoid duplication in the lead in another way. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:52, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Suggest trimming nation names

text reads:
The group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Israel, Turkey, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia.

Suggest:
The group has been designated as a terrorist organization by the United Nations and by various nations.

that last link could be composed various nations.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2014

This edit request to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This paragraph in the article is incorrect "The United Nations reported that in the 17 days from 5 to 22 June, ISIL killed more than 1,000 Iraqi civilians and injured more than 1,000." The UN report actually states that the 1000 Iraqi civillians were killed by the Iraqi government air strikes NOT by I.S. Please amend this as its grossly incorrect. 194.176.105.150 (talk) 09:56, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: All 3 sources cited there refer to ISIL killings. not one of them mention Iraqi government air strikes. Are you reading a different source? Cannolis (talk) 12:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

their actions are “not jihad at all, but rather, warmongering and criminality”.

Oh its hard to be right some times :-))

TY Jack Pepa for finding the texts. Also at: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-is-an-offence-to-islam-says-international-coalition-of-major-islamic-scholars-9756255.html

"More than 120 Sunni imams and academics, including some of the Muslim world’s most respected scholars, signed the 18-page document which outlines 24 separate grounds on which the terror group violates the tenets of Islam...

It also takes Isis to task over its countless acts of brutality and massacres under the guise of jihad, or a holy struggle. While acknowledging to Al-Baghdadi that “you and your fighters are fearless” and ready to die for their cause, the scholars state their actions are “not jihad at all, but rather, warmongering and criminality”."

Conclusion, which was always clear: We cannot speak in Misplaced Pages's voice and describe ISIL as Jihadist. The media honestly don't know what they are talking about IMHO and will use which ever buzzwords that they think will sell most papers. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:21, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye, I think you are missing the point, Misplaced Pages doesn't have a voice on this or any other issue, it simply uses what WP:RS use. If or when that usage changes, we will also change. Until that time, we will continue to use Jihadist. BTW, this term is hardly confined to Islamic State, there are literally hundreds of armed groups that are referred to with this term, so I am not sure why you are singling this out. Gazkthul (talk) 22:09, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Gazkthul, I personally thing that various terms used in various "WP:RS" with little or no justification. Please note that they also use other subjectively applied terms including: murderous, criminal, illegal etc. which are far less contested. Do we apply these too? Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

This is blatant POV-pushing. Not only that, the removal of "jihadist" from the opening has been made without the consensus of editors. I would imagine most of those scholars would deny that al-Qaeda and all its offshoots were jihadists as well, yet that is the WP:COMMONNAME for groups of this kind. Objections of this sort belong in the "Criticism of the "Islamic State"" section, not in the Lead. The whole reason for having a criticisms section, which I opened, was to deal with this sort of thing and the criticism of ISIL from all quarters that are coming onstream fast now. What do other editors think? The last para in the Lead on the name was also removed, in the middle of Talk page discussion about what to do with this para. Editors should not unilaterally make major edits to the Lead without first putting it to other editors first. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Its the POV of the Islamic world. The Islamic imans are the most relevant reliable sources regarding issues to do with Islam. The text that I removed from the end of the lead had been duplicated in the criticisms section. I had also placed its contents in chronological order but don't have much of an opinion as to the location of the text. It should go one place or the other. There had been talk on removal of text from the lead but I have no objection to it being moved back. Gregkaye ✍♪ 20:08, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is, but WP has to abide by WP:NPOV. How many times does this simple principle have to be repeated to editors before the message gets through? Calling it the "POV of the Islamic world" and thinking that justifies the edit shows how far you are from understanding WP:NPOV, in my opinion. You also don't seem to realise what a Lead is. It is a summary of the article, and as such is bound to repeat the main article to some extent. A short form of words for the last Lead para was being devised when you made your edit, as I don't doubt you were aware. --P123ct1 (talk) 20:33, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

It is totally fine to accurately reflect any statement that ISIL may make regarding their claims to any thing of relevance. We cannot say they are "jihadist". That is POV. We can only report on the facts. Gregkaye ✍♪ 20:59, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

you could talk about "facts" if the term "jihad" wasn't just some vague notion from a religious book. the article about "jihad" also state that "Muslims and scholars do not all agree on its definition". so enough with those atempts to seperate them from other jihadists and other islamic caliphates who killed and conquered in the name of islam. do you justify other organisations like al-qaeda and taliban? or caliphates who killed and colonized so many people?. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:58, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Those "facts" you refer to are opinions. Can you really not see that? And who is to judge what is "of relevance" in that sentence? Not Misplaced Pages. NPOV again. I have had my final say. --P123ct1 (talk) 21:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

you talk like the islamic state and the org's that swore allegiance to them(like the taliban) doesn't have imams and other muslims scholars in their ranks which well exceeds the number of 120 which itself cannot be called "the POV of the islamic world". al baghdadi is a muslim scholar himself with a PhD in islamic studies. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 23:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The current version, that says they are just Sunni albeit militant, it is the worse of all possibilities. Jihadist is widely used. Whether they are correctly jihadist or bogus is not something we should address. We're not determining the real Islam let alone if they have authority to wage jihad in the sense of a "lessor jihad." This is how the vast majority of sources categorize them. Legitimacy is another issue. We'll have the same issue with Sunni. Are they accepted as valid practitioners of Sunni Islam? Should we delete Sunni? Criminals? They make the laws in their state. We're left with nothing but "bad guys" and that doesn't make for encyclopedia copy. Jihadist is the most descriptive term but one might want a qualifier like extremist. This puts them on the spectrum of jihadist types that leaves open whether they are off the charts and not genuine jihadists at all. Jason from nyc (talk) 00:31, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Our article on Jihadism says "Generally the term jihadism denotes Sunni Islamist armed struggle." We can drop Sunni and just used jihadist as it can be taken for granted that it is Sunni. As it is Islamist it isn't Islam per se so no qualification is needed. I now suggest it "is a jihadist organization and unrecognized state ..." should be sufficient. Comments? Jason from nyc (talk) 00:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

As a well educated Canadian with a deep interest in history and politics I did not know that all jihadism is Sunni. ISIL constantly says they are waging jihad - I can pick that word out when they use arabic too. The West calls their activities jihad too. Legacypac (talk) 03:07, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the context is 20th-21st century political/military struggles in the Middle East where we are referring to the Salafist revival supplanting Arab nationalist regimes with government implementing Sharia law. The word jihadist in this contexts refers to a specific current that uses force to bring this change about. It's sufficient for the lead as the reader knows this specific usage of the word jihadist for this context. Criticism and contrasts belong in the body of the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 03:49, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Wheels of steel0, ISIL have been known to kill imans that don't agree with them. In addition to quantity we also need to consider quality and veracity of sources.

The first link I came to at www.buzzfeed.com states that "ISIS Now Has Up To 31,000 Fighters — More Than Many Nations’ Armies". So first, with this number of fighters, how many imams does it have? Second, what are their credentials? Third, what are their freedoms of expression?

The news article quoted refers to "120 Sunni imams and academics, including some of the Muslim world’s most respected scholars" who have stated that ISIL's actions are “not jihad at all.” Various condemnations have gone before and I don't doubt that more will follow.

In regard to impartiality we can note that one of the signatories is an imam from Iceland for goodness sake. There is no reason here for bias. ISIL's claims of jihad and can be reported as can the views of the prominent Islamic scholars mentioned. Note, no-one rejects the idea that ISIL are extreme and this is a different issue.

The "Islamic State" have described themselves to be jihadist. I don't see that this view has been supported either by other Islamic sources or by any actual state. The press, for whom I have lost further respect during this conflict, continue to use a variety of buzzwords in various situations. The institution of the press is staffed by people who will hack people's phones for stories and who will chase people to their deaths in hope of pictures. We have long been able to rely on them for their fairly consistent approach. We can't choose a use of words simply because unqualified people choose to use them.

In comparison to the Nazis, Isil's policy of capture and execution may have been conducted at a smaller scale but at a higher rate of murder than the Nazis had ever achieved. They kill or, as far as I have seen, they capture and kill and I don't fancy the chances of any male non Sunni muslim in this situation. ISIL also face female fighters and, although not shown in the slaughter videos, I suspect that many of them will have gone a similar way.

If a similar group to the Nazis had, for instance, claimed that they were "Crusaders", the most that we could say was that they "claimed to be Crusaders". That's all we could do in Misplaced Pages's voice. In no circumstances would we state that they "were Crusaders". This would be POV. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:40, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The Nazis never went as far as to make statements like: "If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be. Smash his head with a rock, or slaughter him with a knife, or run him over with your car, or throw him down from a high place, or choke him, or poison him." Abu Mohammad al-Adnani. What kind of f****d up religious view is this? Does any religion accept this? I have not heard anyone object to accusations of extremism. d "jihadist". As far as extremes go my comparison to Nazism are more than justified. I'm still interested to know a comparison to the term "genocide" but applied to religion. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The only ISIL member with a Misplaced Pages article who is indicated to have a religious background is Bilal Bosnić. He seems to be more involved into recruitment activities rather than theological studies. See: Category:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant members. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that we're not charged with deciding which variant of Islam is the true Islam. Catholics have considered Lutherans heretics for centuries. (Anecdotally, my wife said that when she was a little girl the nuns taught that to her.) No encyclopedia would write Lutherans out of Christianity. We report what the sources report. The most common descriptor is jihadist (we studied this above). The word jihadist is now an English word: . Like many words it can have many meanings but the use of the word for religious warrior makes it suitable to almost all of our sources without further explanation. It's the only word we need in the lead with further explanation given in the body of the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye, you don't realize that the islamic state is more than just fighters or those 31,000 fighters(the numbers are much higher now) and are made up from various peoples who serve in various duties from islamic judges(qadi) to teachers of islam and imams, the same goes for the taliban which swore allegiance to them. so even if we ignore the imams who preach for joining the islamic state we can get more than 120 imams who support the islamic state. and if you read the artivle about Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi you will see that he has a PhD in islamic studies, and he isn't the only one with academic islamic knowledge.

you also need to realize that their islamic opposers has no theological islamic claims against them, its not like somebody like your imam from iceland can come and say "the islamic state aren't doing jihad, jihad is:(some kind of defenition) while the islamic state is doing:(something that doesn't fit to that defenition)", the imam from iceland is opposing the islamic state probably from the same reason you and me are opposing them: they are fanatics who kill and ruins the life of many people. but the imam from iceland is facing a conflict between the horrors that happened in the times of the former caliphates which he can ignore and the same thing(and even less horrific) that the current caliphate is doing which he can ignore and look at it is if he read the history with islamic POV about how the caliphates kill and conquer in the name of god. the islamic state could do the same things in the past and if that imam from iceland was reading about them he obviously wouldn't oppose them and their dids cause it is much easier to support this kind of stuff when you read about it from a religious book rather than see it happen in the TV and look at the victims of the caliphate in the eyes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wheels of steel0 (talk • contribs) 12:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0, Islam's imam from Iceland has joined ~119 others to say that ISIL's actions are not Jihad and these imams are the authorities of these things. Jason from nyc the definitions you supply say things like: JIHADIST: a Muslim who advocates or participates in a jihad; and JIHAD: a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty. Islamic scholars, Sunni and otherwise, call into question a representation of both Jihad and Islam. The dictionaries also give definitions or words like "warmongering" and "criminality" as well as other terms like "murdering" etc. These are things that are pretty much confirmed. Jihad is disputed. Gregkaye ✍♪ 12:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

On the topic of definitions: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/source

source: A place, person, or thing from which something originates or can be obtained:

Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:14, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye, what makes this 120 imams better than the 120(and probably even more) imams who support and even work for the islamic state?, you are acting like you are the real authoritie in these things and not the imams you are talking about.

and as you already said, jihad is a disputed and unclear term, so why you keep talking like the islamic state can't be called like that unlike other organizations and former caliphates who can be called like that?. if you have problem with the use of this term in general you need to talk about changes in many other wiki article instead of acting like there is a clear and accurate defenition for "jihad". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wheels of steel0 (talk • contribs) 13:29, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

User:Wheels of steel0, AS YOU HAVE READ: the 120 Sunni imams and academics include some of the Muslim world’s most respected scholars. 120 does not limit the number but they are a group that spoke out at one time in one voice. If you can cite other imams then go ahead. Yes I try to research what I write but I don't claim to be an authority. All I have tried to do is to point to those that are. Please, don't say that I have said things that I have not said. This is disingenuous. Please don't appeal to some 'clear and accurate defenition for "jihad"'. The simple fact is that the application of the word Jihad in this case is disputed by a number of authorities on Islam. It is questionably used. It should not be used without qualification. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:37, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye, "the 120 Sunni imams and academics include some of the Muslim world’s most respected scholars", as i already said this is just one group of imams and nothing more than that, the islamic state have their imams in their controled territory and also imams who recruiting members in many countries. coming together and giving some statment to the media as a group has no impact about their authority or capabilities to conclude such statment about some vague term from a religious book, its not like they can say something like "jihad is: (something) while what the islamic state doing is different", and yes you need a better accurate defenition in order to do somekind of a difference between the islamic state and other jihadists.

you need to realize that muslims can seperate the islamic state from themselves but not from the religion itself and other caliphates and people they don't know, nobody can have that authority especialy not some small group of imams, and don't forget that the number of islamic scholars and people with religious role in the islamic state is probably much more than 120 and this is the same case with organizations who support them like the taliban. you are too focused on comparing them to nazis and with blind hate against them(don't get me wrong i hate them to but its not blind hate) that you fail to see what they realy are: another islamic caliphate with the same goals and motives as former caliphates. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:28, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you really saying that all caliphates operated by senseless murder? I did not intend to be at all focussed in comparing them to the nazis. As far as I can tell, in many respects they are worse than the nazis. No limitation was intended. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:40, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

they killed many innocent people in the name of god and for the sake of their empire, the arabo-islamic colonization of huge parts of asia and africa was all full of murder and oppression, and all that in the name of imaginary entity. that was all senseless murders unless there is some divine mandate for those killing which also make the killing of the captives of the islamic state a justified actions...--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 17:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye, Islam is not monolithic. It is not our job to decide which Muslims speak for Islam as a whole. There are various strains of Islam and that has been true from shortly after Muhammad's death when the Sunni and Shiite split on succession. Like the word algebra, jihad is now an English word and the English language is determined by common usage not scholarly institutes (as the French have). The reason our search show that jihad is the most common descriptor for ISIS is that it is the closest word in the English language that categorizes ISIS. Let's stick with sources and not try to become experts in Islam theology. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:05, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

As there is no consensus for militant I have reverted the edit to the previous consensus per WP:BRD. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc, Islam is based on the same core texts that it has had for one and a half millennia. It is our job to decide on encyclopaedic content. The present content relates to a disagreements between factions within Sunni Islam. We have an obligation to present rational content and, while we don't need to become experts on Islam, perhaps we can have some trust in those who are. The reversal of edit supports a further radicalisation of language. Jihad means struggle and this is related to a struggle towards Islamic values. You allow it to be associated with a group that supports the murder of a taxi driver turned aid worker. We are supporting a redefinition of Jihad and I do not think that this is Misplaced Pages's role. I doubt that organisations like Britannica would only have taken newspapers as source materials if they could not track down primary source. The whole point of the Islamic campaign "notinmyname" is to say that the name of Islam is inappropriately applied to "ISIL". In Misplaced Pages the suggestion of renaming the article as ISIS is rapidly shut down and editors argue that we apply the validating term "jihadist" to an organisation that amongst other things executes innocents. In effect unwarranted and unqualified support is given to a murderous organisation. This is not neutrality. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye, you can't say that you rely on experts while you choose which one to rely and which one to ignore in order to claim the statement you want as "backed by experts" as if its undisputed. as i said in another comment of me to you, you are too focused with the hate to them and loosing neutrality, you are talking about "letting" the term of jihad to be associated with "murderous organization" as if the former caliphates didn't kill anyone innocent and as if it was less worse cause of some divine mandate for those murders.

wikipedia should point out FACTS and not POV like the opinion of some group of imams as if they are authority, like what next? mybe wikipedia should decide who is right between the shia and sunna? in the article about shia there will be said that the shia are infidels according to some sunni imams and that they are self proclaimed to be muslims or even delete "islam" from their article.

i know what you feel about the islamic state, and that the muslims shouldn't be generalized as supporters of what the islamic state is doing. but nobody can seperate the islamic state from islam and other terms like jihad and caliphate or claim that the "moderate" muslims are more "muslim" than the "extremist" once, this is just imposible to do just from the religious text which is everything in islam. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The word “jihad” has many meanings like most words in the English language. Given the nature of the article it clearly does not mean “struggle” but something more specific that clarifies the nature of ISIS. We are not writing an article about Islam and Islam is not monolithic. Nor are we saying that everything or anything ISIS does is consistent with Islam or acceptable to this group or that group of Muslims. That there are Muslims that say “notinmyname” only points to the diversity within Islam. That there are 120 scholars who can sign a detailed repudiation of ISIS again shows diversity especially since there are no Saudi scholars signing that document. (Is Wahhabi not a bona fide strain of Islam? I know Muslims who would say it is not. But we can’t answer that question.)

The word “jihadist” when used in the contexts of fundamentalist militant Muslims has a narrower meaning to the English readers that makes the lead intelligible. Militant, radical, Sunni, fundamentalist, etc. just doesn’t do it. I agreed to the addition of “extremist” to “jihadist extremist” but we did not get consensus on that. One might consider Salafist jihadist also but that seems less common in the literature (I could be wrong here.) Plain and simple, the overwhelming descriptor in the English literature is “jihadist.” We report the sources, not our analysis of what should be said. Jason from nyc (talk) 16:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc, My comments are made from a background of involvement in Jewish Yeshiva by which the most profound experience I had of racial disregard for other life came within just a few hundred metres of the Western wall. Honestly we are not simply dealing with a modern word here. Information sources like the western press and Misplaced Pages really need to take some responsibility. We are cowtowing to extremism. Its a dangerous game that we play and its not our lives that are most at risk. Gregkaye ✍♪ 19:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Our job is to report, not to transform or recommend. Words have many meanings and that always involves the danger of equivocation and other logical fallacies. I believe the context here is clear and the reader will understand the use of the word in the sense that it applies to this group. Jason from nyc (talk) 19:50, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Let me also say that the 120+ signatures are not representative of all Muslims. The only Saudi signer, Al-Sayyid Abdallah Fadaaq, is the leading Sufi cleric of the Hijaz. No Wahabbi? The Pakistani signer is Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, a Sufi scholar as I suspect Muhammad Suheyl Umar is as well . No Deobandi? To be fair we do have a Deobandi in India, Mahmood As’ad Madani, of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind. Of the 126, 38 are Egyptians. Egypt’s government has recently taken over religious studies to the point that Friday sermons must be approved by the government and the same sermon is read simultaneously at every mosque. Are these scholars hand picked by the government? This document should be in our article but it should not be in the lead nor given as proof of universal agreed upon theology. Jason from nyc (talk) 19:50, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Or "should not be in the lead"? Rothorpe (talk) 20:09, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant. I knew I left out a not somewhere and I'll put it in now. Thanks. Jason from nyc (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposal for second paragraph which currently begins:

• "In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide,.."
  

and which I suggest changing to:

• "ISIL is often described as being jihadist and, in its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide,.."
  

or simply:

• "ISIL is often described as being jihadist. In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide,.."
  

This gets by the problem of the unwarranted use of Misplaced Pages's voice.
ISIL is a new issue. See search: more extreme than al qaeda.
Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:29, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye, I don't understand how the term Jihadist is contested, who is contesting it? I'll also note that Arabic Wiki (which presumably has a high number of Muslim editors), also refers to the group as Jihadist or Salafist Jihadist, as do a large number of media sources in the Arab world, Pakistan etc. Gazkthul (talk) 21:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

See, amongst others: http://lettertobaghdadi.com/

The parameters of lesser jihad (the relevant form of jihad) involves any Muslim who has people fight against them and who fights back. It does not involve involve invading kurdish villages and driving inhabitants into the hills, it is an Islamic term that cannot be applied to armed conflict against any other Muslim; it does not involve the decapitation of journalists, it does not involve five year expansion plans. There are many words that may relevantly be used to describe ISIL. Jihadist is far from being the most relevant descriptor. Its use is grossly misleading.

"The Reason behind Jihad: The reason behind jihad for Muslims is to fight those who fight them, not to fight anyone who does not fight them, nor to transgress against anyone who has not transgressed against them. God’s words in permitting jihad are: ‘Permission is granted to those who fight because they have been wronged. And God is truly able to help them; those who were expelled from their homes without right, only because they said: “Our Lord is God”. Were it not for God's causing some people to drive back others, destruction would have befallen the monasteries, and churches, and synagogues, and mosques in which God's Name is mentioned greatly. Assuredly God will help those who help Him. God is truly Strong, Mighty.’ (Al-Hajj, 22: 39-40)."

Islam believes in an unproven invisible God but, none-the-less, this is what it believes. We are dealing here with a warring group of religious extremists that are not even considered by many Muslims to be representative of their religion.

In the use "jihadist" without the use of descriptors that better describe the actions of ISIL we are effectively saying "this is jihad". This is irresponsible and we need to take more care. It is an utter misrepresentation of both the term and, for what its worth, its theological base.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 04:14, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Reading back through this thread, there does not seem to be a WP:CONSENSUS amongst other editors for the changes you have proposed. Gazkthul (talk) 05:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Which means continuing to apply Misplaced Pages's voice in our further radicalisation of the concept "jihad" despite the use of the terminology being in dispute. I think that if we are to play with people's lives we should pay more attention. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:33, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't follow that describing them as jihadists implies that they are good jihadists or everything they do is consistent with jihad. Your change, that they are "Sunni militants," has the same problem. After 9/11 there were many complaints that the West was defining "good Muslim" and "bad Muslim." There was even a book with that title objecting to that trend. The notion of "moderate Islam" and "radical Islam" was criticized by many Muslims including the Turkish PM, Erdogan. We are not defining or apply standards of jihad or Islam--that's original research. We reflect sources and sources use jihad but note criticism. So do we. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye your quote barely has anything to do with the islamic state or about proposed difference between them and another jihadist groups along the history. you saying that if they fight muslims it isn't "jihad"? i didn't found it in the hadith. at the end the islamic state fights for the enforcment of the islamic law(against secular regimes) in the same way the former caliphate did it: they conquer and kills any resistant and than enforce the islamic rule by force.

you need to understand that muslim people can seperate the islamic state(and other jihadist militants like them today) from themselves but can't act as if they have the authoritie to say that they are not muslims and not doing jihad, cause they don't just have nothing to back up their claims they also hypocrites for supporting the same thing that they read in the islamic literature(looks much more ideal and romantic due the obvious islamic POV) but stop to supporting it when they look the victims in the eyes and most of the world are angry and develope bad stereotypes of muslims. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 13:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Question: How unholy would a war or a warring group need to become before losing a primary description of "Jihad"? Seriously! I'd like to know, or do you endorse the radicalisation of the term with no limit. Definitions like good and bad are irrelevant. Jihad has a definition and, according to various facettes or behaviour, limits will be crossed. Are we to apply a definition without limits? Is that the plan? Are we just to pander to whatever various journalists choose to churn out as they aim to increase publication circulation? Misplaced Pages is not acting as an encyclopaedia but as a lapdog for the press.

Comparison can be made with the likes of Saadam Hussain, a character who incidentally I would by no means describe as "good" but following the Kuwait war he did little but resist. Yes he kept human shield prisoners but they were kept in good health. He also spoke of Jihad but is not spoken of as a jihadist. ISIL blatantly abuse the a great swathe of Islamic teaching and yet jihadist terminologies are liberally applied. We are feeding radicalism and, when presented with opportunities for moderation, we fail. Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:41, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Every criticism you make of ISIS can be made of Wahhabism more generally. From our article: “al-Wahhab declared jihad against neighboring tribes, whose practices of praying to saints, making pilgrimages to tombs and special mosques, he believed to be the work of idolaters/unbelievers.” “Wahhabis embraced the ideas of Ibn Taymiyya—which allow self-professed Muslim who do not follow Islamic law to be declared non-Muslims—to justify their warring and conquering the Muslim Sharifs of Hijaz.” “Wahhabis also massacred the male population and enslaved the women and children of the city of Ta'if in Hejaz in 1803.” Our article states that IS is an offshoot of the Wahhabi movement and relies of Wahhabi literature. Saudi Arabia has funded Wahhabi Madrasas around the world. While I applaud the “open letter” condemning IS, we can not be an advocacy venue.Jason from nyc (talk) 14:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

You are not answering my question which is one that can equally be raised at Wahhabism. Here is another situation of a warring group claiming jihad despite the fact that other groups have very different understandings of the term. They may claim to act by jihad but we fail to give fair representation and, as I say, by failing in this way we are radicalising "jihad". Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC

"Assem Barqawi, also known as Abu Mohamed al-Maqdesi, who was released from a Jordanian prison in June after serving a sentence for recruiting volunteers to fight in Afghanistan, called fighters loyal to the Islamic State group's leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, "deviant"."
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/muslim-leaders-reject-baghdadi-caliphate-20147744058773906.html
We still use Misplaced Pages's voice to call them "jihadist". Its messed up.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:09, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye like seriously? what is that question? how the fuck do you describe "unholy"? do you define other jihadists and caliphate "holy" and calls them and their cause an "holy" and justified one? and all that without being a muslim?...

as i said several times before, not you or the the specific imams you choose(or anybody else where he is imam or not) can be an real authority, the best they can do is to speak for themselves but not for the imams and scholars who support the islamic state and obviously not in the name of islam itself cause the text it self just can't seperate the islamic state from former caliphate. i know you want to seperate those terrorists from other muslims but you just can't speak in the name of islam and every muslim in the world.

you keep with the same mistakes of treating islam as an organization or science with leaders or expert which can have such authority to differentiate between the islamic state and former caliphates. and anyway some of the "leaders" in that article are noted to be supporters of al-qaeda and jabaht a nusra which began to fight with the islamic state in the recent weeks. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Gregkaye and anyway if you believe in the authority of some islamic "leaders", mybe wikipedia should note that shia are "heretics" (http://www.nairaland.com/740058/sheikh-qaradawi-shia-heretics) and that alawits(another off shot of islam) are "more infidel than Christians and Jews"(http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/07/opinion/abdo-shia-sunni-tension/index.html)?, you used al qaradawi for claiming that the islamic state aren't a "caliphate" and not doing "jihad"(and its not like he provided some serious proves for that) so why his suposed "authority" is only limited for what you want? you act as if you are the real authority for islam.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 18:42, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

My valid question is: How unholy would a war or a warring group need to become before losing a primary description of "Jihad"? Sure its not down to me or and individual muslim or an individual imam. Jihad is an Islamic word describing, warts and all, a struggle for Islamic ideals.
When even the more extreme people in Islam reject ISIL, don't you think that maybe, just maybe that says something?
The most that we can do in the situation is perhaps say that they are "reportedly jihadist" and the only reason we may be forced to go this far is because of an idiot press that spouts wording that it either doesn't understand or doesn't think through.
There is no dispute to them being terrorists. There's dispute in their following of jihad. There is dispute of them following Islam. Its not that complicated.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 00:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye what is valid in that question of "how much unholy they need to be" like what the fuck is "unholy" and how exactly other caliphates/groups who has done jihad(confirmed as one by you of course) was "holy" unlike the "unholy" islamic state?, this is the only valid questions her.

again you miss the point (or simply just ignore what i am saying). who said that fighting for a caliphate and for the enforcment of the islamic rule isn't "a struggle for islamic ideals"? this is not just jihad this is also the same thing which the former caliphates and organizations which you call "holy" and justify them has done in the past.

and as i said before, it doesn't matter who are the people who oppose the islamic state and if they are "extremists" or not, they just can't talk in the name of islam and do what the islamic text can't do: to seperate the islamic state from other caliphates in the past.

you failed to provide any theological argument which seperate the islamic state from other caliphates and the only argument you have is that SOME muslims say that they didn't support the islamic state while you choose which muslim scholars and imams to delegitimize(the supporters of the islamic state) and even choose what statment to support and what statement to delegitimize with the imams you see as "authority". you don't realy rely on anything or anybody, only on your own opinion and POV which is quite mysterious i must say, you say that you don't believe in islam but act as if the former caliphates(the "real" ones according to you) and their religious struggle was justified, moral and even "holy". you can only speak like that if you believe in islam. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 02:08, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0, do you have any kind of theological background?

I will walk you through. Holiness, by definition, is being "dedicated or consecrated to God". In application to Islam the definition of holiness becomes that of being dedicated or consecrated to the God of Islam. The supposed teachings of the God of Islam are found in the Quran and related literature. Holiness in Islam necessitates attempt at adherence to such teaching. Holiness on an individual's terms and not on a god's terms is not holiness at all. Its not dedication to a god but dedication to different agendas.

In the current situation, in the Iraqi region, ISIL are in flagrant breach of the teachings of Islam and this is to the extent that people normally regarded as Islamic extremists condemn them.

The relevant theological point relates to the actual differences between the behaviour of ISIL and the requirements of righteous practice within the conceptions of Islam. Differences to other so called Caliphates are irrelevant and yet you continue to attempt to push that irrelevant point. If the same criticisms that can be applied to ISIL can also be applied to other groups then these become issues for those articles. The current discussion relates to the discrepancy between the behaviours of ISIL and the requirements of Islamic teaching. There are long pages of content written on this topic that you are welcome to read. All of the departures have relevance to theological conceptions of holiness and, to cap it all, there is even the specific criticism that the group's "sacrifice in intent for jihad ...is not jihad at all". My valid question on this topic remains.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye before you wrote that pointless mumblings about the defenition of "holliness" you could reread what i said about your question and understand that there is nothing real behind that term and that anybody can claim himself to be "dedicated or consecrated to the God of Islam", and you didn't show any proof for why the islamic state is "flagrant breach of the teachings of Islam" or why the islamic state couldn't be called "caliphate" unlike former "real" caliphates which is basicaly the whole point of this argument, cause if you can't differ between the islamic state and former caliphates what is your point exactly? if you claim that nobody were "jihadist", "caliphate" and "khalif" you are simply in the wrong talk page.

you have no real argument to back up your POV which is all about seperating the islamic state from former caliphates, jihadist groups and even islam itself. so if you don't have anything more to say other than "even the 'extremists' don't support them" you need to realize that you were wrong and also had wrong preception about islam(and religions in general) instead of repeating on the same pointless argument as if i didn't showed to you how much it has nothing to do with the islamic legitimacy of the islamic state. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 16:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Wheels of steel0, please don't resort to rhetoric. Seriously? You don't see the point in discussing understandings of Islamic terminologies in association to a group that claims authority over Islam? Really? Gregkaye ✍♪ 22:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

• Gregkaye i am the only one in this argument who talk about islamic terminologies her. you on the other hand talk only about the opinion of SOME muslims as if they have the authority to contradict and add to the islamic text, and even other users has told you that you act as if islam has monolithic leadership while it obviously far from being that way.

i know you hate the islamic state and know that they are bad people with no moral and nothing they do is justified, but it doesn't mean that you or some muslims can seperate the islamic state(or any islamic faction) from islam and claim that they "aren't doing jihad" or "aren't a caliphate" without any quote from the quran or other similar islamic text, cause those people are nothing more than another followers of islam and not more muslim than the supporters of the islamic state.--Wheels of steel0 (talk) 12:04, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The first thing that I came to really came to hate in relation to the recent history of Iraq is the loss of much of the countries ancient historical heritage - specifically that U.S. and UK forces drove up to protect the ministry of oil etc. and not the museums. This is the thing that I find hardest to comprehend because the decisions were solely based on about money rather than humanity. I have a better understanding of inter group hatred and the anti-Shiaism involved but this is still not forgiveable. I have equal "hatred" of any anti-Sunni sentiment that may have grown up in surrounding populations. We all bleed the same colour blood. I also hate misrepresentation. This hatred is shown in comments regarding the unhealthy misuse of Semitic references in anti-Semitism and this will be clearly apparent should you choose to take a look at Talk:Antisemitism. I currently hate the present misrepresentation of jihad. I also hate the continuing and senseless loss of life but this does not mean that I hate the murderers. Please don't attempt to derail arguments by trying to make things personal. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

That's all fine and well but besides the point. The word jihad is now also an English word. The Misplaced Pages Manual of Style recognizes it as such. Even this past weekend, three time Pulitzer Prize winner, Thomas Friedman used the word in relation to ISIL. He says it is in part "Sunni Muslim jihadist fighters from all over the world ..." but which is changing the culture of Iraq and Syria "into bleak, dark, jihadist, Sunni fundamentalist monocultures." This is not an article on Islamic theology nor the Islamic doctrine of jihad. The difference is worth pointing out but the English usage of the word, even in the Old Grey Lady, is common in the English language. And we use the English language. This is how reliable sources in the English language use the word. Jason from nyc (talk) 14:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc it is true that "jihad" is also an english word now but there is a need to point out that the islamic doctrine of "jihad" is found only in the islamic text(like the quran) and it fits to the islamic state in the same way it fitted to former caliphates in the past. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 17:55, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2014

This edit request to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

from the discussion i made about the "self-declared" when talking about the islamic state as a caliphate(and about abu bakr al-baghdadi as a caliph) i made claer that the islamic state is a caliphate in the same way that former caliphate was a caliphates, there is no theological nor logical differences and the ones who supported in not calling them a caliphate("self declared" instead) were unsure about if there is an actual differences between the islamic state caliphate and former caliphates which existed just few decades ago(the last caliphate before the islamic state fell in the 20s of the 20th century).

the media used "caliphate" and "self-declared caliphate" or even just "isis" interchangeably and anyone can find news network that use one name over another more often. so there is no meaning for using some particular media as a "source" for the way they should be treated.

so my request is to simply remove the "self-declared" and treating them as what they are: another caliphate. Wheels of steel0 (talk) 22:35, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: There has been extensive discussion on this point. Article is fairly stable on using qualifiers as the only people who accept the declarations are other terrorists. So no thanks. Legacypac (talk) 05:12, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

as you can see the editor who made that "self-declared" edit isn't sure about if there is differences between the islamic state caliphate and former caliphates, i suggest you read that discussion, i already showed the islamic terms for being a "caliphate" and "caliph" which has nothing to do with the recognition of some countries and the term of "terrorists". according to islam the terrorists you talking about are the muslims who give them the right to be called a caliphate. so your claim that "their declaration is accepted only by other terrorists" is meaningless and has nothing to do with what made some politic entity a "caliphate".

the islamic state is already called her an "unrecognized state" and basicaly did accepted their declaration of a state, so why not accepting their declaration of caliphate?.

wikipedia should talk about facts and accept things as they are and not be depend on the personal feelings and POV of the editor. --Wheels of steel0 (talk) 12:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

About description

I think that the summary of ISIL isn't accurate. The main activity of ISIL is torturing and murdering christians and followers of other religions in the name of the Islam -- and this should be clearly stated. Even if they base on extreme interpretations of jihad. The statement "The United Nations and Amnesty International have accused the group of grave human rights abuses" might be interpreted like "they are just accused and maybe innocent". There are dozens of articles which describe the crimes. A quick google search shows a scale of it. Somebody who hadn't known what ISIL is could gain a very incomplete view.

We all know what ISIL is, and maybe "everybody" knows. But IMHO Wikipiedia shouldn't take that into account as a reason to not mention the most important facts, because it destroys a neutral point of view.

My proposition is to add a sentence "ISIL is responsible of such crimes like torturing men and women, rape and mass murder. This includes shooting to death, crucifixion, beheading and other forms of atrociousness.", at the end of the third paragraph. After that might be a bunch of references to various sources. Bypassing an essence of the matter is not neutral. -- gajatko 9.10.2014 01:30

Saying they are accused is fine if there is any doubt, but ISIL puts out videos bragging about most of these crimes. Since no one disputes that they are committing these acts, seems like we can state the facts. The only word that might be an issue is "crimes" but any civilized person knows what these are without us telling them. I'd add kidnappings, murder of POWs, and destruction of historic monuments. Legacypac (talk) 02:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

The main activity of ISIL is torturing and murdering christians and followers of other religions

Actually they kill far, far more Muslims than Christians or other religious groups. Until 2014 they had almost exclusively killed Muslims, in fact. And we already have a Human Rights Abuse section that is specifically designed for the material you are talking about. Gazkthul (talk) 02:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Until there is a statement from the UN that goes beyond accusation this is all that we can present. We can only use what has been said. There may be reason to check for new statements. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:58, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Is the UN the only source we can cite? I think that it is not bad to cite articles from news websites, because they often contain photos which prove the accusations.

• Report on the Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict in Iraq: 6 July – 10 September 2014
• http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evelyn-leopold/isis-isil-is-thy-name-is_b_5948208.html
• http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=744_1377386471
• http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11111167/British-hostage-Alan-Henning-beheaded-by-Islamic-State-killers.html
• http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/urgent-video-isil-beheads-american-journalist-threatens-kill-another/
• http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/29/373281/video-shows-isil-shoot-teens-in-head/
• http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=165097&cid=23&fromval=1

Well, an official report of HUMAN RIGHTS Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and 6 different sources with photos or videos -- what else do we need? --Gajatko (talk) 11:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Can we try to cite sources that don't require subscription

please. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:10, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Suggest amalgamating second and last para of lead

The second para reads:
In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide, and aims to bring most Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its political control, beginning with the region of the Levant which approximately covers Syria, Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus, and part of southern Turkey.

AND the last (6th) para reads:
The group's original aim was to establish an Islamic state in the Sunni-majority regions of Iraq, and following its involvement in the Syrian Civil War this expanded to include controlling Sunni-majority areas of Syria. A caliphate was proclaimed on 29 June 2014, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi—now known as Amir al-Mu'minin Caliph Ibrahim—was named as its caliph, and the group was renamed the Islamic State.

Amalgamate to last?

Gregkaye ✍♪ 17:07, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Support. Jason from nyc (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Syria army still free

in: Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#As Islamic State (2014–present) we have written

By that time, many non-Islamist rebels had been assimilated into the group, according to ISIL. In August 2014, a high-level ISIL commander said, "In the East of Syria, there is no Free Syrian Army any longer. All Free Syrian Army people have joined the Islamic State."

A recent change has been made to say "non-Islamist rebels had been assimilated" and perhaps its worth getting the claim into current context.

http://www.ibtimes.com/free-syrian-army-rebels-join-forces-kurds-fight-isis-kobane-1702500

Gregkaye ✍♪ 08:22, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

second para, first sentence.

had said

Over 120 scholars of Sunni Islam have declared the Islamic State to be Khawarij, stating that their actions are “not jihad at all, but rather, warmongering and criminality”.

and has been provisionally amended to,

Widespread Islamic criticism of ISIL has included an open letter from 126 Sunni scholars to "... the self-declared Islamic State", stating that their sacrifice, without legitimate cause, goals and intention is “not jihad at all, but rather, warmongering and criminality”.

The open letter does not directly mention "Khawarij" and the groups actions were not specifically mentioned in the relevant quote. The refs: is to http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/muslim-leaders-reject-baghdadi-caliphate-20147744058773906.html is to http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/another-battle-with-islams-true-believers/article20802390/ but any of this can be amended.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Logical Order in Lead

The lead "serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." It should have a logical order. "It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies."

Thus, I made a change to start with the descriptions and moved "prominent controversies" to the end of the lead section. This way we have " unrecognized Sunni jihadist state" ... history of its growth ... "aim was to establish an Islamic state" ... "caliphate was proclaimed" ... "claims religious authority over all Muslims worldwide." I moved the criticism paragraph that starts with "Widespread Islamic criticism of ISIL ..." to end the lead. The criticism is total. Everything about ISIL is being criticized and condemned.

Why, Gregkaye, do you object to that? Jason from nyc (talk) 15:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Jason from nyc, I am still awaiting your reply to my "You are not answering my question" statement above.

Editors can't have it both ways. You can't place an unqualified endorsement of ISIL as being "jihadist" (struggling in holy war) and also remove content presenting the contrary view.

Either we qualify the statement or we move both the statement and its opposing text together.

If the opening paragraph used a description similar to: "a Sunni reportedly jihadist unrecognized state in Iraq and Syria in the Middle East" then any move of subsequent text would be fine.

Another option would be to move both the "jihadist" claim and the "not jihad at all" comment to another part of the text but, without qualification being given to the "jihadist" claim, it becomes necessary for these two contents to appear together.

I would be equally happy with either solution.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:00, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I removed nothing. You seem stuck on jihadist. It is not just jihadist that is being criticized by other Muslims (and non-Muslims). The claim to an "Islamic state" and "caliphate" and "religious authority" are all being criticized. Do you want a parenthetical remark after each phrase? Our article would read ... "jihadist (rejected by 126 prominent Muslims) ... Islamic state (not Islamic according to 126 prominent Muslims) ... religious authority (rejected by 126 prominent Muslims) ..."??? Not only are Muslims (and non-Muslims) critical of such claims, they also list a host of atrocities and appropriate condemnations. Do we insert those after every sentence? The "open letter" that we refer to has explicit rejection of ISIL doctrine on a point-by-point basis. It is much more than the word jihadist and there belongs as a response to the whole description, after the whole description. Jason from nyc (talk) 16:15, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure I am stuck on "jihadist". "Islamic extremist" would be a marginally better description despite the group being widely rejected by Islam. Why do you mention parenthesis? Please don't misrepresent the content of other editors. My clearly stated suggestion was to either keep the two Jihad related references together or to use something like "reportedly jihadist". Many sources have described then as being jihadist. We can reflect that. I am resolutely stuck on the view that a group that kills aide workers should not be given an unqualified endorsement as struggling for Islam or that they are engaging in "holy war" at least not without fair and immediate reply. Gregkaye ✍♪ 21:58, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I'll repeat myself. Since Islamic critics reject IS on many grounds and not just it's claim to be waging jihad, it should come at the end of the lead so that it expresses the full critique of all that comes above. Jason from nyc (talk) 22:26, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank-you for limiting yourself to your point. My point is that we cannot speak in Misplaced Pages's voice in crediting them as "jihadist" and separate this statement from opposing claims. Many reports on ISIL begin with reference to criticisms and then continue to present additional context. There is no imperative to present content in a particular order. It is important to either give qualification to the first "jihadist" statement or otherwise keep the two references to jihad together. Gregkaye ✍♪ 07:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe we still achieve your objectives as long as this paragraph is in the lead. It isn't just "jihad" but "Islamic" and "caliphate" that are being rejected by Islamic critics. Putting this paragraph last still achieves the objective of telling the reader that there is Islamic opposition to ISIL and to all of ISIL's claims and activities. Jason from nyc (talk) 11:35, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

My objective is that we don't give ISIL an unbalanced endorsement of them being "jihadist" or that immediate reply is enabled.

Options of working text include: "... is an Sunni extremist unrecognized state", "... is an Islamic extremist, Sunni unrecognized state" or "... is an Sunni reportedly jihadist unrecognized state".

In the first option the use of "Sunni extremist" eludes to Islam without direct reference to the term while the extremist link is piped to Islamic extremism. This page contains the text: "for achieving perceived Islamic goals; see Jihadism." All bases are covered and there is no force feeding of the reader with conclusions but space is given to the reader to make up their own minds.

No-one argues that ISIL are extreme whereas the applicability of Jihad is disputed.

(ISIL OR ISIS OR Daesh OR "Islamic State") OR "extremist" gets "About 24,000,000 results" in news

(ISIL OR ISIS OR Daesh OR "Islamic State") OR "jihadist" gets "About 23,800,000 results" in news (almost exactly the same).

Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I had argued for "jihadist extremists" and got some agreement but not consensus. In the meantime our pipe of jihadist to Jihadism allows the reader to understand the debate about the usage of this word. We, however, can not correct the sources. That's not our job. They use jihadist and it is up to the reader to understand in which sense and with what legitimacy this word is used. We have objections cited in the lead section but these objections are wider. They are objections to ISIS' usage of jihad, caliphate, and Islamic. This is why the paragraph should be at the end of the lead. It says in essence "all the above is condemned by Islamic authorities. We can trust the user to read to the end of the lead. They came to wikipedia to get more than sound bites. Jason from nyc (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

In this case, with regard to a group of murderers who slaughter innocent people, I will continue to correct for the simple reason that it is wrong. I know the potential consequences. What can I do? It's immoral B******t. You know the most used descriptions. I have presented the information. If you want to push this and see me lose my editing rights that's up to you. I cannot with good conscience let this go. Radicalisation creates a clear route to the lose of life. It can result in the loss of loved ones. I have no choice. On this specific issue, and in the actual true sense of the word, this is my "jihad". Gregkaye ✍♪ 18:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Opponents list

I think the opponents' list is too restricted.

Shouldn't be considered "opponents" the states that have deployed forces in the ground to train the Iraqi Army and/or the Kurdish Peshmerga forces? And the states that have deployed Patriot missile batteries in Turkey to protect it from cross-border IS attacks?

I'm saying this because Spain has deployed 300 soldiers in Iraq to train the Iraqi Army on the ground, and will deploy 6 Patriot missile batteries and 130 supporting troops in Turkey to defend its NATO ally against cross-border attacks from IS.

States like Spain and others are clearly opponents of the IS, and I think their contribution should be noted on this Misplaced Pages article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Felino123 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Discrepancy

In the infobox, it says that the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant was established January 3, 2014. However, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant was announced April 8, 2013, when ISI declared that ISI was being renamed to ISIS: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/7119.htm

What happened on January 3 is that ISIS officially declared that they have completed the "liberation" of Fallujah and that the Islamic State has arrived to the city. To say that IS was established or announced on January 3 is pretty silly. The rest of the article is quite clear that ISI was established/announced in 2006, renamed to ISIS in April 2013, and then renamed itself to IS and declared a Caliphate on July 29 2014.

The "establishment" date should be changed to either October 15 2006, which is when ISI was announced, or to April 8 2013, which is when Baghdadi announced that ISI is being renamed to ISIS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.112.16.100 (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, however whenever I have done this another editor has reverted me, and I haven't been interested in edit warring over it. Gazkthul (talk) 23:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Please restore footnote "UN-executes"

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There's a dangling reference to <ref name=UN-executes/> in the "As Islamic State" section. It's currently footnote 131, the third footnote at the end of "executions of clerics who refused to pledge allegiance to the Islamic State, mass executions of prisoners of war, and civilians,"

I grabbed the footnote from an old version, where it was defined in the "Treatment of civilians" section. It used to be

<ref name=UN-executes>{{cite news |url=http://www.todayszaman.com/news-350389-un-warns-of-war-crimes-as-isil-allegedly-executes-1700.html |title=UN warns of war crimes as ISIL allegedly executes 1,700 |date=15 June 2014 |website=Today's Zaman |accessdate=4 July 2014}}</ref>

The right thing to do is replace the reference to this footnote by this definition of the footnote. Thank you! 71.41.210.146 (talk) 23:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

 Done, and thanks for taking the time to figure out what the citation had been before someone accidentally broke it. Cannolis (talk) 02:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Official website external link and accurate flag

This is apparently their official website. Should this go in the External Links section?

http://khilafah.is/

This is the image in the top right corner of their flag, which is a notably better version than what is being used here on wikipedia.

http://i.imgur.com/BvVrQfX.jpg

Wstn (talk) 04:07, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

placing Terrorism, orders of criticism

I think that ISIL should primarily be defined by what they do and I am now not sure in regard to our prominent presentation of terrorist labling. While I don't doubt that the label applies I personally see ISIL as being more analogous with the war promoting Nazi party or with the Hutu's in the 1990s in their genocide of the Tutsi in Rwanda.

I am questioning the balance between the priorities of the group to simply cleanse surrounding areas of enemies or to initiate terror/to enact reprisals for perceived previous wrongs.

Also, I believe that the section on: 'Criticism of the "Islamic State"' began as primarily as a compilation of criticisms of the groups use of the name "Islamic State" and that this has grown to incorporate other issues.

Suggest starting section "Criticisms" containing subsections: "Designation as a terrorist organization", "Criticism of the name choice, "Islamic State"" and "other".

Also suggest in the paragraph in the lead concerning criticisms placing the Amnesty international sentence on ethnic cleansing ahead of sentence indicating designation as a terrorist organization by the United Nations and other nations. The United Nations has 193 member states and eight are noted for individually applying this designation. There is far more condemnation on the issues of slaughter, slavery etc.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

a specific/non-specific, definable/indefinable establishment

The first infobox contains a section on "establishment" with presented details of:

	Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant declared	3 January 2014

- 	Caliphate declared	29 June 2014 

The section on names begins: "The group has had a number of different names since it was formed, including some names that other groups use for it"

I personally find it contradictory to talk of "establishment" and to talk of names of the group prior to the establishment date.

What establishment are we/should we be talking about? The establishment of the group? The establishment of a government (which may have occurred at any time and not necessarily at name change transition)? The establishment of a capital city? The establishment of a title containing the word "State" (which occurred with the rebranding as "Islamic State of Iraq")? A rebranding of the description of the type of government to Caliphate? Something else?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

I think that the one valuable piece of information here is the date that "Caliphate" was declared and this could be entered in the section of Government. The current text reads: "Self-declared caliphate". I suggest: "Unitary, Single-party state declared as Islamic state (2006) and as caliphate (29 June 2014).

The Mujahideen Shura Council was a single-party and it retains absolute control of the group.

Gregkaye ✍♪ 11:16, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Also propose moving information on leaders and on the capital city into just one info box

I suggest that this all goes under Government and capital in the first box. Gregkaye ✍♪ 13:12, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

For the Criticisms section

This short video .. "Sheytan" is "Satan". --P123ct1 (talk) 17:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

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