Misplaced Pages

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Spin off the GGTF into a new WikiProject?

We've 54 members in the GGTF, and there is a proposal to create multiple, defined tasks for the GGTF. I think that this task force would work better as a new WikiProject, not under WikiProject Countering systemic bias. It used to be that the task force was about gender bias, but now it's been changed into a gender gap task force. This implies that the reason to get rid of the gender gap is to counter systemic bias, which may be a primary reason for getting rid of the gender gap, but I'm sure many people here have alternative reasons for trying to counter the gender gap. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 13:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm here because this is part of CSB. What is your alternative reason? --GRuban (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc: Misplaced Pages:Comment on content, not on the contributor. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 21:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The issue of the relation has been addressed here before: SlimVirgin’s question on “If MRM people are causing a problem here, this page is ipso facto covered by the sanctions” plus continuing discussion and

Let's hope not. Putting this under the soul-sucking dominion of WP:AE would be the surest way to kill broad participation. —Neotarf (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC) No, wait, MRM is under community sanctions, not ArbCom. —Neotarf (talk) 22:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Way back in June-July Arbitration sounded like a good thing to a couple editors, but since then it has become clear it's just one more nail in the coffin of this project. That's what I fear this move would be. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't see what connects arbitration, men's rights and calling the task force a wikiproject. SlimVirgin 22:12, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

This archived thread on a past Men's rights disruption, continuing disruptions and possible solutions discusses possible Arbitration as a solution (see last three posts especially). So if a men's rights person was proposing something, without technically invoking community sanctions by discussing men's rights, one might be a little concerned about the reasons. But if no one else thinks it's a possible problem, I'll relax. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

If User:Carolmooredc believes that I am somehow disrupting the project, I would suggest that she takes it up with me or creates a section on this talk page. In response to her saying that this move is the doings of an MRA trying to kill "this project" (italics mine), I would like to point to Misplaced Pages:Comment on the content, not the contributor again, as you have not provided any evidence that any perceived viewpoint of mine would somehow affect the content of this proposal or of any of my actions or comments related to the GGTF or any topic that may be covered under community sanctions. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 22:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's easier to just ask for someone's point of view and get a positive reply that it's not an issue than to feel one must go through a bunch of diffs and their full context, which can clarify certain comments. But never mind if you don't want to discuss it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind moving it to WikiProject Gender Gap. I started it under the systemic bias wikiproject only to give it a home (which is why it first had "bias" in the title, and is one of their "task forces"). But as it grows, a separate wikiproject might be more appropriate. SlimVirgin 14:35, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I have several concerns. Having one active project under Counter Systemic Violence helps support the others. Having a lone project might make it harder to find if it goes dormant and might make it easier to target as "against Misplaced Pages policies" if it becomes its own project and people keep harping on non-issues like "2 men to revert a woman" proposal, "political activity", "rabble rousers", etc. Just like a Stand Alone Wikiproject, this one can easily create a few more tabs and pages. At this point there isn't even a proposed need for separate pages, except for a resources page will I'll come back to in a few weeks (i.e., one less "kitchen sinky" than my big one). Then there is dealing with practical bureaucratic concerns on redirects, changing various links already in place throughout, etc. etc. So I would not be so quick to jump upon the idea. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm with @SlimVirgin:. Split this off. Systemic bias (not "violence") is a content issue; gender gap is a participation issue. This page is just a dramafest and useless to helping solve either issue. Montanabw 18:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That's an interesting distinction I hadn't considered. I have felt that the gender gap issue did not neatly belong in the systematic bias wiki project but for other reasons. The gender gap issue seems to me to be a big enough issue that it could stand alone as a project. Obviously that project could have links to other relevant projects such as the systematic bias project to help ensure that it doesn't become orphaned but I see value in establishing it as its own project.

Whether it is moved to a new project or remains here it would also be useful to think about the interplay between this page and the gender gap page on Meta. It isn't clear to me how these two interrelate. Conceptually, one would think that the meta-page would be the main page covering the issue from the perspective of all of Wikimedia while this specific page would concentrate on those aspects especially relevant to the English Misplaced Pages. However that does not seem to be the way they are organized, which is almost certainly due to the non-hierarchical nature of this enterprise and the fact that some contribute to one or the other while a few try to make sure there is some overlap in material.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there's support. User:Carolmooredc is the only one disagreeing. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 00:08, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

And I assume that if anyone gets trollish and finds the "higher level" of Wikiproject some sort of Feminazi plot to take over and destroy Misplaced Pages, you'll be defending that choice to the hilt. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:39, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Meta-wiki already has its own gender gap project. This task force is already essentially its own WikiProject, and making a new one will just be a bureaucratic formality. Being under CSB is a vestige of when countering the gender gap was seen as primarily an objective to remove bias from Misplaced Pages because everything was written from a male centric viewpoint. Now, it is a moral goal unto itself. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 14:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

OK. We got Chess/Grognard down for a "moral crusade" . Only other definitive reason give below was regarding systemic bias as a content issue vs. gender gap as a participation issue. (I'm pretty sure it will do both in either place.) For future reference I think it's probable that most of those who signed on to this specific propsoal did so for practical not moral reasons. (Please feel free to explain reasons further.) So any future naysayers can argue with Chess/Grognard on the morality issue. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:41, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Carolmooredc: It's not a "morality" issue, but a practicality and categorization issue. Currently, as other people said, Meta-wiki has a gender gap project. A major focus of the 2014/2015 year for the WMF is to fix the gender gap, and this task force seems to have grown enough to become a WikiProject, as well as having a goal important enough to be a WikiProject. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 01:00, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I was just quoting you. In any case, right now there's not a clear consensus to change it. Perhaps we should wait anyway until the conclusion of the ongoing Gender Gap Task Force arbitration Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:07, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll

• Perhaps we could have quick straw poll to see whether there's support.

• Support setting this up as a wikiproject. We have only these two pages at the moment, so we would only have to move the main page to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gender gap and this to the talk page, plus move archives, and edit some templates and the intro. SlimVirgin 19:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Ambivalent - I see the concerns people raise about the scope being too broad. I'm leaning toward "keep GGTF to focus on user-related issues and allow other projects like WP:XX to deal with issues of article content and checking for WP:GNL. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• No in-principle objection. Tony (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support as originator of the idea. Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 20:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Lightbreather (talk) 20:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
• Query: is there any value in using both locations? —Neotarf (talk) 21:52, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• If you mean retaining this task force page and setting up a wikiproject, I don't think there would be any value in that – not that I can think of. SlimVirgin 22:16, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree, although I would leave a redirect at a minimum, and possibly a placeholder page with a link.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:41, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per previous comments I feel safer in the "Countering systemic bias" nest. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

WMF slide on recent state of gender

Slide 6, presented by Anasuya the other day at the quarterly metrics meeting. See also a few of the subsequent slides. And an interesting dialogue between some key players at the meeting, here. Tony (talk) 04:35, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Curious to know how they know that articles that are of interest to women are underrepresented. Since women are 51% of the population, that's a rather large pool. Have they done a study to indicate what these interests are?Two kinds of pork_Bacon 17:13, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi TKOP. Yes, the statement is based on a study: Lam 2011. You can find the information you are looking for in paragraph 4.2. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 17:26, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm a woman and slide7, "Gender content gap is widespread & persistent" is of interest to me, particularly as it relates to WP:WMNWRITE, a WikiProject I founded last month. I was looking over the number of articles that exist on the EN language Misplaced Pages regarding Angolan women writers. Did you know that I could only find one, Ana Paula Ribeiro Tavares, within Category:Angolan writers and its subcats? This factoid makes me sad... 2014... just one article on an Angolan woman writer. So if you know me, you can guess that I'll spend some time trying to increase the number of articles on Angolan women writers. But not today as I just feel worn out. I'm assuming that the research on underrepresented articles includes factoids such as the one about Ribeiro Tavares, a factoid which isn't hard to discover. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Not to worry, take a break and have some fun! Africa wasn't built in a day ... :) Djembayz (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Like Thanks to Tony for bringing this to our attention. The slide and dialogue bring out some key issues, using just a very few words, about the current state of play on both the content and participation side. Djembayz (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

• Well, the trick is for some of us to create content, which is what the encyclopedia is supposed to be about, and then for the rest of us to mutually support the creation of content from the trolls who try to AfD things as "not notable." And for NO ONE to get run off the wiki by the trolls!!! (Strategic retreat, occasionally, and if desperate, a wikibreak, but no quitting!) One place to look is also at the guidelines themselves, which, by the way, anyone can also edit... Montanabw 03:32, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

These numbers make me sad. Women represent 22-30% of newcomers, but only 8-16% of active editors. Just recovering those that did not stay active would be great - before even recruiting more women! Is there a way to contact those who are inactive and invite them to join the GGTF?

Are we allowed to advertise outright? Why not run ads (using WMF money) in magazines and on websites where women who are likely to make good editors congregate? Women in tech, women writers, and ??? Lightbreather (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. But we might get a better response if the WMF reaches out to these places and encourages them to write a story about women and wikipedia and why their readers should participate. This too would cost money. But if we went with your suggestion, what would an ad look like? What sort of magazines would reach the target audience? Publications for primary school educators might be a good place to start.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 13:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

As for a print magazines, I might try AARP, appealing to retired women with lifetimes of experience and free time on their hands. The AARP website, too. University alumni magazines/web sites? Retirement fund magazines? Lightbreather (talk) 20:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh! And Facebook ads! Lightbreather (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• @Tony1: and @Iselilja:, thanks for pointing this out. Hard data like this is exactly what is needed to convince skeptics there is indeed a gender gap in terms of not only editors but content. For those of you who haven't looked at the slides, a NSF study shows that college men tend to focus on science and engineering fields and college women focus on the arts and humanities.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 13:47, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Let us not forget Draft Resources/Research studies . Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. It was there I found the link to the study (which was only mentioned by name in the slide). Very valuable overview. I posted a link to your page at Norwegian Misplaced Pages and was thanked for that by an editor there. (Norwegian Wikimedia has an upcoming seminar about the gender gap issue). Iselilja (talk) 16:25, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I really dislike the phrase "Articles on topics of interest to women", you know.. pink stuff, cupcakes, lipstick, that sort of thing - is that what they mean? If it's not then what do they mean? Women scientists? Women politicians? Women explorers? Why would that not be of little / no interest to men? --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 16:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I dislike it too, and there's absolutely no reason at all why men wouldn't be equally interested in women scientists, politicians, explorers and even feminists. Have you seen the work that's been done recently on Florence Nagle for instance? Much of it by men? Eric Corbett 16:49, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who used the phrase 'Articles on topics of interest to women' or where or why, so making generalizations about what someone allegedly thinks somewhere not too helpful.

I know that I would work mostly on important political topics of interest to me, if I could ever get back to editing. (For almost a year I had to hide my article list and avoid my favorite topics so articles wouldn't be gutted.) But the day after the community dealt with one form of Wikihounding, another was initiated. So I have to waste all my budgeted wiki time finding diffs of bad behavior here for an Arbitration. But I guess that happens to male editor all the time with no one taking it seriously complaint after complaint... it's not some gender gap thing... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Straw poll on priorities, direction, and tactics

The text that accompanies the WMF slide on recent state of gender which Tony mentions above suggests two different directions:

1. Transform the overall Misplaced Pages community into a more positive experience for women

2. Create smaller spaces within the existing community designed for participation by women

Either approach has pros and cons, and the consequences aren't entirely clear.

Which direction would GGTF members prioritize at this point? Is your favored approach a means to an end, or your preferred end result? Are there any possibilities for unforeseen consequences we should consider?

Discuss. -- Djembayz (talk) 20:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

First one, I'd say. There are certainly some issues which are not covered or are not adequately covered enough within Misplaced Pages and who's main audience is women. More civility and the like enforcement is needed. 2nd would create rifts in the community as you can't really bar 50% of the population from participating in something, and who's to say that someone isn't and is a woman? Some verification process? Gender identity is a thing and it gets quite filthy and controversial when people don't respect it. But, if it's meant for participation for women, but men are not excluded or discouraged from it, then that would be fine. Similar to the women's only hotel rooms who the hotel got sued for gender discrimination (and they lost) so they had to rent the rooms to men. They still made it suited to women's needs, so that they complied with the order, but it was really meant for women. Tutelary (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• #1, without question (though I am not necessarily agreeing with anything else Tutelary is saying) I don't think women need the "short bus" - or a ghetto. So, for me, #2 is an insult, right up there with half-size basketball courts and fainting couches. People of color, people who are LGBT, all sorts of people are underrepresented on wikipedia. (I for one am appalled at the systemic bias and racism that impacts Native Americans) The only long-term solution is to work on is #1 and here, women's rights have some unique aspects, but in many ways they are also HUMAN rights and if things are better for women, it would create a better environment for everyone. People want a safe space, they can plot offline and within safe places like the geek feminism wiki (god knows that the trolls use Wikipediocracy as their recruiting ground...). I disfavor the "oh honey, let me help you across the street" attitude. To expand that metaphor, I can cross the street all by myself, thank you very much, but I would appreciate it if they WOULD fix the traffic lights and enforce the speed limit so I'm not risking life and limb every time I try... Montanabw 02:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Safe spaces on Misplaced Pages are impossible. Better enforcement of existing rules is the answer. We need a "recruit women to edit a lot in non controversial areas and make friends, make them admins, and then clobber the trolls" strategy. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages metrics clearly show that long-term editors tend to edit content in a specific area, so I disagree to some extent. I had no trouble making wiki-friends from the get go AND finding controversy landing on my head in the simplest and one would think most non-controversial of places. AND my worst "I'm sick of this shit and I want to quit" fights were originally with editors who appear to be female. My first huge dustup was with a woman editor over, of all things, the correct pronunciation of chaps (where I stuck to my guns and won); my second biggest dustup was editing rodeo articles and encountering the ItsLassieTime sockpuppet, who had dozens of personas, but may well have been female, given the editing pattern (and it was me sticking to my guns again that exposed the whole sock drawer...) ; so, IMHO it is for us, the more experienced, to Defend Each Other! and help newer editors stay safe on these mean streets. Montanabw 19:33, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Editors can help each other out when we have the time and psychic energy and can figure out what the dispute is about. That's what many of the noticeboards about. Letting a group of women or women-friendly guys here know about problems a lot of women experience differently than men, from incivility to harassment to pervs wanting to talk dirty on our talk pages, to getting late night stalker calls, to double standards applied to us regarding behavior and/or editing is certainly a goal here.

I have seen lately that some editors create tight little gangs of editors who defend each other right or wrong. That should not be a goal here. Meanwhile, when it comes to looser alliances, individuals will choose to join them or not. I tend to go by principles myself and am always happy to find allies on those principles. And sometimes we just have to go it alone, at least til we drift into the right noticeboard where people "get" the problem. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

• Re: using this Wikiproject to develop and propagate negative stereotypes about "appear to be woman" editors and "may well have been female" editing patterns, this xkcd cartoon shows how it works. —Neotarf (talk) 22:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

To address Djembayz's question, in part at least, this is a false dichotomy. Because the question has been framed in terms of "gender gap", the research has focused on women, but without a control group. That is, questions tend to be asked only of women, and not groups of editors as a whole, so that you can compare populations of women/men with arts/sciences types of editors, which might pull out statistically significant differences, or some completely unexpected information. For instance, who can say that this type of exchange, ("Why are you trying to pin the blame on me for your own indolence/incompetence? You've had plenty of time to fix this article, but you haven't done it".), which someone put on Jimbo's talk page a few days ago, is good for the project as a whole? Who would want to stick around a job like that, even for pay? And yet this remark was addressed to a female editor, who subsequently stopped editing. So is this a "gender problem" because the remark was addressed to a female editor, or a "Misplaced Pages problem" because it creates a toxic editing environment. —Neotarf (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Obviously incivility (and harassment) are a problem for most editors. In general, women will get turned off to it faster as various studies have shown and thus it becomes a Gender Gap issue. One of the things I wanted to do, but constant disruptions prevented, was to go through the studies and just list their main findings as a separate document. Now behind on so many things don't have time. But anyone who wants to give it a try can check out Draft GGTF Resources. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Djembayz could you update the links to the text and slide(s) you're referring to? Lightbreather (talk) 18:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

@Lightbreather, I don't see anything wrong with the text. Slide 6 is here. —Neotarf (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I read the text, but there was a lot of it. I was wondering which parts led Djembayz to say that it suggests two different directions: 1. Transform the overall Misplaced Pages community into a more positive experience for women, and/or 2. Create smaller spaces within the existing community designed for participation by women. Lightbreather (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Re: Edit-a-thons. They always seem to be about writers, artists and scientists. All are valuable, but what about the rest of the humanities: sociology, psychology, psychiatry, economy etc.? Where are the recruitment drives from both male and female editors who work in these areas who have an in-depth, professional take on what makes people tick. Surely that would be beneficial to Misplaced Pages as a whole. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 16:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Different groups do different subjects. The DC WP group has done a lot of different ones. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Polish monument to Misplaced Pages

Read about this on Facebook Misplaced Pages Women facebook page and now on Talk:Jimbo Wales. As I asked there, Are those figures genderless or castrati? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I've dropped in precisely because of this. I believe they're all men. Can you believe that? I mean ... um ... . It's a very impressive work, and someone has done very well to produce it, but I couldn't promote it or feel anything but embarrassment. It's sad. Tony (talk) 09:49, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

They don't seem to have anything between their legs, they might have been castrated and penectomized. Violence against male sexual organs is not cool. --Pudeo' 15:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

They're obviously male - not genderless. They have narrow hips, wide shoulders, and - most telling - crotch bulges. None appear to have breasts. Lightbreather (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

That's right, this is Catholic Poland. Not Dutch Amsterdam or Venice Italy. So of course they aren't going to show the explicit sexual details. OK, perhaps we can indicate to the Powers that Be that a nice letter explaining how they should have at least one woman in there would be really great! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. (It's a piece of art -- not a social statement. If the artist had made one or two of the figures explicitly women, and these figures are together lifting overhead a heavy globe, it would be a distraction to the art theme. ) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Imagine the Misplaced Pages sh*tF*t if it had been obviously all women by a woman artist? In any case, art can be crappy and people can say so. It's still legal. In any case, I thought it was going up a year from now, but it's this October, so a bit late. But hopefully they have or will have a plaque mentioning women editors. Actually, it's probably best that Polish Misplaced Pages women editors approach whom so ever. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Yoo, ha. Found the Polish article on the statue and asked the question on the talk page, using my best Google Translate polish. :-) Better late than never noticed a Polish Gender studies group so left message there too. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Update: Message on my talk page says an earlier model shared by someone on Polish Misplaced Pages shows a couple women, but they don't know if til they see the actual statue unveiled. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Queen Bodicca doing something men would typically be assigned to do, for the raw muscle power needed and managing not to distract from the art theme. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 17:27, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if that's what someone said about it or speculation. Anyway, maybe the women were too big bosomed for the Polish politicians so they demanded it more gender neutral. We shall wait expectantly for Oct. 22. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Final momument was unveiled and looks like it has at least one, may two women in it, according to a talk page update. Yeah! Article on Polish Misplaced Pages with photo. Images.google search of "Polish momument Misplaced Pages" gets some more good returns. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:35, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

NPOV: pornography portal/ project, but no anti-pornography portal / project?

Should there be a Pornography portal / project and an Anti-pornography portal / project, or should the existing one be re-named "Pornography debates" or something similar, with more being added to the anti-pornography POV? Before anyone says, "Just because it is called the pornography portal / project doesn't mean that it is pro-porn." I would say look at the project's scope and the portal's list of categories. There isn't much for those looking for the anti-pornography POV. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 17:50, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There is a need for the anti-side to be presented. I'm also intrigued by the misogynist troll dramafest that will undoubtably erupt if either method is tried, but given that there are only 24 hours in a day and some of us have to eat and sleep as well as work for a living, I'd recommend waiting until Gamergate and the ArbCom case die down so those of us who are useful in a street fight aren't pulled 16 ways by other dramas the way we are at the moment. There are more trolls, and they don't have to eat or sleep as much because I suspect that they all just live in their mommy's basement. In the meantime, I'd spend some time and energy finding more allies who will be useful so that when you do drop the hammer, you don't have to fly solo, but you also won't have flaky allies who will pull your efforts off into some sort of stupid thing that is mostly a personality conflict like this stupid ArbCom case. Montanabw 21:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

First, can we be civil with others' proposal and not insult both alleged pornography users and allegedly flakey "allies" or call the project stupid? It's really uncalled for and tacky.

In any case, it's only worth creating the "anti-pornography project" if a) you have enough articles to support a project and b) enough participants interested in keeping it going and and c) enough energy to put up with the brouhaha. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProjects shouldn't have a point of view. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:23, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I should have said: and if you survive a challenge to the existence of the project based on whatever arguments editors might offer. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:28, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I was thinking aloud more than anything. It just occured to me that there is a portal for Conservatism (selected article: the Bricker Amendment), and a portal for Socialism (selected biography: Karl Marx).

Selected articles / biographies on the pornography portal are generally about porn stars, porn films and - a newly added feature - erotic literature. When anything relating to anti-pornography is featured then there is an over-arching tone of "that bunch of censorship nutters" e.g. radical feminists (for 'radical' read 'lunatic'). The second paragraph of the article on pornography is typical of how the anti-pornography movement tend to be portrayed, 'various groups ... with varying degrees of success ... censorship and other legal restraints to publication' rather than 'a number of associations and organisations ... achiving success in reducing the amount of material that they regard as harmful'. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 08:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Since even voluntary censorship of viewpoints is such a big "no no" on Misplaced Pages - especially if it's censorship of things demeaning to women - a more successful approach might be to focus on pornography-related issues. For example, the addictive aspects of pornography, the psychological reasons males have poor relationships with women and thus are sexually frustrated, the "male surplus" issue leading to too few women available for males during the last 30 odd years, and any and all studies indicating a relationship of pornography to any sort of violence against others (women, children, men, animals). Articles about, and Project/portal mentions of, the dysfunctional aspects of pornography is something they can't complain is censorship. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:17, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of List of American higher education institutions with open Title IX sexual violence investigations for deletion

FYI notice of AfD:

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of American higher education institutions with open Title IX sexual violence investigations is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of American higher education institutions with open Title IX sexual violence investigations until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion is currently focused on the historical importance (or lack there of) of the list.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.. Thebrycepeake (talk) 01:17, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

RFC on gender based category

Please participate in RFC regarding whether or not the article 2014 Isla Vista killings (the killing spree of Elliot Rodgers) should be in the category "Violence against men" . This category has been described as a category: "for articles on the topic of sexual or gender-based violence against men or boys". --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

BoboMeowCat is directly involved in this discussion, proposed the RfC, actively thinks that the cat should be removed, etc. Tutelary (talk) 02:31, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Readers are free to read my (and Tutelary's) vote on RFC if for some reason they are interested in personal opinions, but Tutelary your comment here seems inappropriate because my notice of RFC was neutrally worded and in accordance with RFC guidelines for community input. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:43, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Who else but involved people post notifications? Please, no more challenging proper notifications here. If it's really a problem you can find an admin to warn the participant. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is neutrally worded. However I fail to see how this is relevant to the interests of the GGTF. If this RfC is perceived to be a battle of the sexes request, this might be perceived as canvassing. But I'll AGF and assume BoboMeowCat was a good kitty (unlike mine who just tried to escape) and notified a wide variety of projects.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 04:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#Appropriate_notification: The talk page of one or more articles, WikiProjects, or other Misplaced Pages collaborations directly related to the topic under discussion. Nothing in policy about variety of pages or the topic at hand, be it battle of the sexes or global warming. The question may be a more philosophical issue of gender gap coverage than others, but it is relevant. I myself am undecided about the whole thing and raised various issues there. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 04:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Not canvassing. I also posted RfC notices to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject California. Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard (because there has been talk of making a separate bio page for perp, Elliot Rodger). Trying to get as many eyes on this as possible, because we've had issues in past because we can not reach consensus, and previous postings to noticeboard didn't get new eyes on the issue (same people debated same things, but just moved it to original research noticeboard). Posted it here because it is a gender based category, and this is only gender wikiproject I'm aware of. If you can suggest any wikiprojects or pages that relate, please do so, or even repost this notice elsewhere yourself. The wider the community input the better --BoboMeowCat (talk) 04:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Notifications need to be balanced and non-partisan. Ideally a posting here would be balanced elsewhere. I too dont have a suggestion, but the NPOV board might have an idea. I'm not coming after you, just pointing out how you could do better the next time.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 04:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Why wouldn't people reading this page be concerned about gender issues involving men as well as women? Seems like the people who died in this unfortunate event deserve respect regardless of their gender. If you think another group of editors would be interested, by all means add the notice there. Making this site work involves finishing the work others have started for us, and explaining what we are doing, so they can do it themselves next time. (It's easier to learn wiki editing by viewing examples than from explanations.) -- Djembayz (talk) 12:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Do Wikipedians/WMF prefer arguing to actually working on fixing the problem?

Surprising discovery this morning. The page you are now reading, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, has been viewed 3909 times in the last 30 days. By contrast, the Gender gap strategy page, where WMF is recruiting volunteers to actually work on improving the situation, has been viewed only 4 times today. What gives? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm like most people, they see the word "meta" attached to anything and say meh.Two kinds of pork_Bacon 12:15, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Could you explain more? If this is something that people actually care about, what's the difference between it being posted on Meta instead of here? Should it go somewhere else? -- Djembayz (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia.org really is used more by those interested in foundation work or working among various foundation projects. I don't think much controversial happens there.

English Misplaced Pages is watched by tens of millions. This task force is doubtless watched or visited regularly by lots of editors, admins, researchers, journalists, government agents, etc. interested in what uppity females, supportive males and potential or actual trolls are up to. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are visited by tens of millions, mostly only folks who have edited read talk pages and then only to catch up on the soap operas. J3Mrs (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

According to stats.grok.se, the page has been viewed 139 times in October, and as of today, 661 times in the last 30 days. (I think I've visited it myself at least twice in the last month.) isaacl (talk) 17:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

To get back to Djembayz question, I think if you read my timeline at Arbitration you'll see that bad faith editors with snide questions and criticisms have (and still are) discouraged and disgusted editors interested in figuring out goals and projects. So a lot of people pretty much have given up on the project cause they are tired of the fighting. That leaves some of us to be scapegoated for others' bad faith disruption. I'm pretty fed up myself; just reacting to random stuff that's posted. Maybe Arbitrators will understand. I'm sure if a bunch of women went to the WP:WikiProject Men's Issues and started similar stuff, we'd have been blocked within days and there would be no need for Arbitration. Hmmm, how come men get to be men and women end up "gender"? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Sue Gardner article

I just was looking at it for a factoid and corrected a ce. I did notice it says nothing in the text about the WMF Gender Gap project, though that's doubtless what she is best known for. And doesn't mention why she left or what she moved on to doing, though User:Sue Gardner gets into that. Research from RS needed. So if someone wants to update it before I get a chance... :-) Lots of refs on her at Draft Resources page, among other places. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Research and Data Showcase

Today's mw:Analytics/Research and Data/Showcase presentation began with a report on word choices by male and female editors. My oversimplified summary is that women here use somewhat more personal pronouns and positive words than male editors. Overall, the communication patterns aren't too different from what is found in other research, although our experienced women editors may be less uncertain or anxious than women from other places. If anyone's interested, it can be watched now on YouTube. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I haven't had a chance to look at the video. While the report may say that experiences are similar to those found in other research, but it emphasizes other differences:

"Emotions under Discussion: Gender, Status and Communication in Misplaced Pages" By David Laniado

I will present a large-scale analysis of emotional expression and communication style of editors in Misplaced Pages discussions. The talk will focus especially on how emotion and dialogue differ depending on the status, gender, and the communication network of the about 12000 editors who have written at least 100 comments on the English Misplaced Pages's article talk pages. The analysis is based on three different predefined lexicon-based methods for quantifying emotions: ANEW, LIWC and SentiStrength. The results unveil significant differences in the emotional expression and communication style of editors according to their status and gender, and can help to address issues such as gender gap and editor stagnation.

So it does look quite interesting. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

New "resources" articles, research, and projects pages

Thinking about past discussion of how to use this mass of material at my "Draft resources page", I realized the best thing would be to create three pages of the least controversial links:

• List of mainstream and tech publication articles
• List of research studies on the Gender Gap on Misplaced Pages sponsored by Wikimedia Foundation and independent entities
• List of Wikimedia.org and en.Misplaced Pages Gender Gap action projects

At the original "Draft resources page" I have left the material that does not directly mention Misplaced Pages or that is not "reliable sources".

• Related projects
• Research studies/writings on similar topics and/or communities
• Books
• Interesting blog and other articles

We could create a GGTF/Related resources page to be called "Related projects and writings" if people want. Though it come become way too much of kitchen sink, in case people want to think about how to describe what should or should not be there. Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Carol, this sounds like a great idea. Tony (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

IEG research project—midpoint report

This may be of interest. Tony (talk) 00:40, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb

I encountered Canberra Wikibomb last August and mentioned it on this page, see archive. I have now noticed WP:Meetup/Sydney/University of Sydney Wikibomb which concerns a gender diversity event on 31 October 2014. The August event involved many new female editors creating articles on women scientists, and the Sydney event will presumably be similar. Participants here may like to help in some way because this is a good opportunity to recruit female editors. Their main problem is the complete culture shock concerning what writing an article for Misplaced Pages involves, from trivia like wikisyntax to more important issues like NPOV language and copyvios. Johnuniq (talk) 01:28, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be good to advertise this on the Australian noticeboard on en.WP. Don't bother with the chapter: it's dead. Tony (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Lorie Masters for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Lorie Masters is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lorie Masters until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 00:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Survey re: gender gap on EN Wiki

As a part of my IEG, Women & Misplaced Pages, I've created a survey re: the gender gap on the English language Misplaced Pages. Any and all editors (of all genders and sexes from all countries) who contribute to EN Wiki are welcome to take it--and participation is much appreciated!

Note: A few participants have had issues with the survey, which is run via Qualtrics, timing out. I know that Qualtrics doesn't work well on Chrome, so you may want to try IE or Safari. --Mssemantics (talk) 12:26, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Mssemantics this page is a redirect which Ghostery blocks. Would be good if that could be fixed. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC).

Thanks, Rich. Pinging Mssemantics to make sure she sees this. SlimVirgin 01:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Rich. This talk page or the Qualtrics survey page? Thanks! --Mssemantics (talk) 23:56, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Mssemantics The Qualtrics survey. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC).

Slim Virgin the {{@}} template pings too. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:50, 22 October 2014 (UTC).

Hi Rich, I'm not sure it does (I didn't get your ping). I thought I should let you know in case you're relying on it. There's a list of the things that work at WP:ECHO. SlimVirgin 20:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks, I was confused. I acutally should have been using {{Ping}} (aka reply to). Like this @SlimVirgin:. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:13, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

Hi Rich. It looks like the issue between Qualtrics and Ghostery is something I can't fix. I'd recommend opening the link with a broswer in which you aren't running Ghostery, or I can send you a direct link to the survey via Wiki mail. Apologies! --Mssemantics (talk) 00:59, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh I can work around this stuff! I just want you to be able to get the largest sample possible. Fixing would be up to qualtrics it's a shame so many large sites abuse the web. I had 32 trackers on one major web site - WP is probably the only place that comes up with 0 junk. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC).

Nomination of Pilar Montero for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Pilar Montero is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Pilar Montero until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.Maranjosie (talk) 15:37, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Octavia Butler petition

Thought some of you might be interested in this petition to make Octavia Butler the World Fantasy Award statue instead of H.P. Lovecraft, who was racist: http://www.change.org/p/the-world-fantasy-award-make-octavia-butler-the-wfa-statue-instead-of-lovecraft Maranjosie (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us know, Maranjosie. SlimVirgin 01:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Create category

Could somebody please create the category 18th-century women scientists? There are a lot of women we could add, and it seems odd that 17th-century women scientists is a category but 18th-century is not. I would create it myself but I'm not really good at these things. Thanks. Maranjosie (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Never mind, I did it. Maranjosie (talk) 17:46, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Need active peer reviewers

The projects Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Feminism/Peer review, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Women's History/Peer review, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Gender Studies/Peer review really need active peer reviewers, so if some people could click on those articles and add their usernames under the Active Peer reviewers section that would be great. Thanks!

Quote today about taking online harassment seriously / women being driven offline

"There’s a sort of sentiment that online harassment is not real, that we shouldn’t take it seriously. But, you know, as you just showed, Elliot Rodger had his manifesto online and his videos online before he actually took action. So, this is a larger culture of women, you know, one, not being believed about their experiences with online harassment, and when it is seen that they actually are being attacked in really vicious ways, it’s just brushed off as, "Oh, it’s just the Internet," or, you know, it’s just boys being boys, when that’s really not what’s happening here. These threats are very real, whether they are committed or not."

-- Anita Sarkeesian, in today's interview, "Women Are Being Driven Offline ..." -- Djembayz (talk) 00:11, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Djembayz. She argues that women are being driven offline, and that women who watch other women being attacked question whether they want to participate or speak up themselves. SlimVirgin 01:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yuuuuuup. It's a bummer. But as an optimist, I always think there's a solution. Though this isn't quite the space you can talk about them. I'm going to have to try that site (Women.com or something?) you linked to a while back. Feel free to share it again. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

There's really no connection between manifestos of killers and the Internet. The Unabomber had one, written on paper. Nonetheless there are very serious threats made online, by email, and amazingly social media in all its guises.

In the UK "credible threats of violence, harassment, or stalking" are punishable by up to 6 months (soon to be 2 years) imprisonment, under the Communications Act 2003#Malicious communications. I believe there are existing laws in most countries, that criminalise threats of physical harm, at the very least.

Is it credible that women are being "driven offline"? Well in the sense that some, demographically small, number of women (and men) might choose to disengage from social media, very likely.

In terms of the Misplaced Pages Gender Gap we (en:wp community and the WMF) have zero tolerance for threats of physical harm, pretty low tolerance of doxxing and outing, (notable exceptions are a couple of Arbcom screw-ups) and the community will not stand for overt harassment or wiki-stalking.

I'm not sure, then, that this adds anything to the resolution of the key Gender Gap questions, except to support the background concept that the Internet at large is not always a nice place.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 14:44, 21 October 2014 (UTC).

Zero tolerance of threats of harm? Unless you've got friends in high places and claim you were under stress and it was a joke, you mean.

Re no toleration for wikihounding, it took a year of my complaints to admins, at ANI and even at a past arbitration to get a hounder off my back. Considering the outrageous reaction of one of his buddies, I felt like this must be a "Misplaced Pages first", a man being sanctioned for Wikihounding a woman. I noticed another woman didn't get a guy off her back till it went to arbitration. Makes me want to do that analysis of ANIs for double standards vs. males and women (or push Foundation to pay someone to do it) even more. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi Carol, I am a big fan of yours, the work you have done to reduce Misplaced Pages's gender gap has been inspirational. Keep up the good work! - Gem FightMisogynyNow (talk) 22:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Carol I have no idea what you are talking about. If someone made a credible threat to harm you, your first course of action is to contact the FBI. No on knows more that I the flawed nature of Misplaced Pages's governance, but oblique references to "bad things that have happened" does not contribute to a constructive discussion.

If you want to do an analysis of ANI's for double standards (and there has been some work on administrator responses to other editors by gender), that would be excellent, a positive contribution to establishing factually, rather than anecdotally, the editing environment.

You will need to record for each section at ANI, the gender of the person being reported (I would discard sections reporting more than one person), the gender of the person doing the reporting (for "boomerang" cases), and the outcome. You may also want to record the gender of the actioning admin, if any, or closing admin if no action is taken. you will also need to decide what constitute an "action" clearly "blocking" is relatively easily measurable, things like "warning" are less so, and for something like that you need a methodology to ensure that a consistent measure is applied (for example that it is mentioned in a section close, or that an admin says "I have left a warning on their talk page").

If existing research on blocks is anything to go by, the ratios are likely to be fairly consistent for blocking, there is also some research on warnings templates, but I don't remember those results.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC).

Thanks for comments. Not sure how research on warning templates related (it was by gender?) I assume that would be on wikimedia.org if I wanted to look? Maybe after the current GGTF Arbitration whoever's left standing can encourage other researchers, including those working on the study of wikipedia sexism, can do it. I mean we do want to help outside researchers don't we? Or is that a "no free speech" privately off Misplaced Pages provision that only applies to GGTF that we haven't heard about? First time it occurred to me. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Internet harassment studies, Slate, Daily Beast articles

I notice we seem to be veering a bit from women on Misplaced Pages to women on the internet in general. Unfortunately, studies on harassment on the Internet in general are ambiguous.

• http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/22/pew_online_harassment_study_men_are_called_names_women_are_stalked_and_sexually.html
• http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-harassed-more-than-women-online.html

Seems that quite often men actually get worse treatment, but women are affected more. So it's hard to tell whether that helps us here on Misplaced Pages all that much, and I think is a reason for us to focus on specific Misplaced Pages effects, that are easier to pin down. --GRuban (talk) 18:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't think they are all that ambiguous.

• Even just looking at the title of the first one gives a slightly different perspective: On the Internet, Men Are Called Names. Women Are Stalked and Sexually Harassed reads: 44 percent of men and 37 percent of women who use the Internet reported experiencing harassment there. Men “are somewhat more likely than women to experience certain less severe forms of harassment like name-calling and being embarrassed,” Pew found, but they’re also more likely to receive physical threats—I’d call that “severe.” Meanwhile, “women are significantly more likely than men to report being stalked or sexually harassed on the internet.”

Considering women don't tend to jump into a profile political debates and stick to more social media situations, it's not surprising they get fewer threats. If a similar percentage entered those controversial areas the number of women threatened would shift considerably. As I can attest being active here and elsewhere and getting dozen of threats of even the most innocuous statements so guy didn't like.

• And the second one is about a tiny sample: "a fairly small sample of British celebrities, journalists and politicians whose Twitter timelines were tracked over a two-week period, its findings are nonetheless interesting. On the whole, 2.5 percent of the tweets sent to the men but fewer than 1 percent of those sent to women were classified as abusive."

Again, did they compare what the two were writing about? Some topics raise more hackles than others, no matter who is writing them. Just often bigger hackles if it's a woman. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:46, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Point well taken, GRuban. Do you have any particular specific Misplaced Pages-related effects in mind?

Let's say this site reflects a more general trend, in which women tend to find harassment more distressing than men, even though men may be receiving more physical threats and name calling. If women are sufficiently distressed to stand up and demand a friendlier, more collaborative atmosphere, wouldn't that benefit men also? For long-term editor retention, quality improvement and content expansion, doesn't it make sense to branch out beyond the community of mean-spirited people who like nothing better than nasty arguements? -- Djembayz (talk) 01:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, entirely agree that civility is great all around. My point is just that treatment of women on the Internet in general is much more complex than on Misplaced Pages in particular, and especially bringing up mass murderers is, hopefully, even less relevant to our work closing the gap here. I truly truly hope! It's not as if we have any shortage of specific Misplaced Pages effects to discuss, from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force/research to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender Gap Task Force. --GRuban (talk) 02:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

University of Sydney gender diversity Wikibomb signup

The University of Sydney is hosting a gender diversity editathon on Friday October 31st about women currently or historically connected with the university. The project page is at Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Sydney/University of Sydney Wikibomb. Any Wikipedians who can attend on the day would be much appreciated (sign up now!) to help train newcomers. If you would like to contribute online (sign up now!), pick a subject and start your research. --99of9 (talk) 00:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Good, although already mentioned above. People here might like to comment on what advice should be offered to new female editors—for example, guidance on selection of a user name or on what should be posted on a user page. Johnuniq (talk) 00:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, would it be too aggressive to consider other forms of conceptual "Wikibombs"? Such as creating memes to facilitate positive change vis-à-vis the gender gap problem? NeoFeminism directly <redacted>, for example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:IshtarPoster.jpg

I completely understand that while highly effective, some may consider this approach <redacted>. This represents a tough philosophical quandary for #HeForShe #NeoFeminists such as myself. Do my colleagues and I use every tool at our disposal to affect positive change at Misplaced Pages, or do we hold back until <redacted>? GemSophos (talk) 04:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Er ... Gem? Did you just post with the <redacted> already in? I'm afraid I can't quite understand what you're getting at. Though your poster seems rather frightening. --GRuban (talk) 21:25, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

You are the prestidigitator? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

HELP!

Just a quick update on this (sorry for the double posting earlier)... it is going to be the biggest editathon I have ever attended. There are already 36 signups on the project page, and we are expecting somewhere nearer to 100 on the day!? We will have a decent number of experienced editors on site, but we will be stretched. Anyone who can provide online support 03:00-07:00 UTC tomorrow (Friday) would be much appreciated. Please add your name to the project page with a note so that I know who we can call on. Here's some ways you can help:

1. Any sandbox started by a wikibomb participant should be added to Category:University of Sydney Wikibomb 2014 so that we can all find it.
2. Monitor These Related Changes to look out for editors having trouble.
3. Write (kind) sandbox_talk page comments if you see promotional language. It seems that some participants are intending to write articles about their friend/colleague/boss. The organizing team now all understand how much COI editing is discouraged, but I'm afraid academics are harder to herd than cats. We are at least trying to ensure that everyone declares their employer on their userpage, and declares any COI they have on the article talk.
4. Assess articles' readiness to move into mainspace (also post a note on the talk page). Experienced Wikipedians will do these moves, but for COI and general stress relief, it would be good to have third party eyes over it.
5. Categorize, prettify, wikidatify, wikiprojectify ({{WP Australia}}{{WP Biography}} etc) any articles that do make it into mainspace. We will not have time to concentrate on any of these things.
6. Ping me or another Wikipedian if you spot any problems.
7. Publicise on Twitter (#Wikibomb) with a link to the project page

Thanks for helping! --99of9 (talk) 10:37, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Meetup/Feminists Engage Misplaced Pages

Here is the list of red-links from that event in 2013, that may pique someone's interest. (#TooFew)

• Suzy Castor
• Nancy Feagin
• DJ Kuttin Kandi
• Marie-Laurence Jocelyn-Lassègue
• Sister Singers Network
• Artemis Singers
• Mimi Kim
• Creative Interventions
• Allied Media Conference
• Disability Justice (should probably be at Disability justice
• Women's Joint Congressional Committee (United States)
• Techno-Orientalism
• Erasing the Distance
• Ourika (TGOW)
• J Mase III
• National Dalit and Adivasi Women's Congress of 2013
• Third World Majority
• Anne Emery

Note: I rescued Chela Sandoval from AfC - other articles may exist in draft space.

Not impressed that these are still red links - makes me doubt whether those who put the event together actually take this seriously.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 01:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

Actually, these red links are the way editathons work! You add way more links than you expect to finish, to ensure there is a variety of material that will be of interest to attendees. Whatever red links you don't finish get picked up by someone else, and put in a place where they'll attract interest, just as you have done.

Editathons are more like a drop-in quilting bee where everyone pitches in for a few hours on an existing project. You need either skilled editors or subject experts to get major results / outcomes. When the right people show up, lots happens; other times, with newbies, the event is mostly training, coaching, and general outreach. (A few newbies have told me they decided it's easier to donate money than edit themselves ... :)

Established editors may or may not change their editing patterns to finish off an editathon task list. More likely they go back to whatever they like to do after the event.

For sustained efforts on a specific task list, you need a series of events.

The program evaluation folks would have more statistics ... Have you considered holding an event or two yourself? Even an editor as prolific as you could use a boost from others willing to pitch in on your areas of interest :) -- Djembayz (talk) 03:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Of course, you are right, and indeed I have looked at the results of every editathon I could find, up to a few months ago. And this editathon did well, as did the series of women's ediathons earlier this year - in terms of "work produced during the session". My comments were not made in a vacuum, however, one of the editors Moya Bailey (who probably comes near needing an article of her own) specifically spoke to Al-Jareeza about the event and stressed the Disability justice article as being important. Hence my disappointment that, not only was it not created during the editathon, but has not been created in the 18 months since.

It seems that it is, just maybe, also easier to organise an editathon than to edit oneself.

(And if anyone wants me to organise/run an editathon, provided they can arrange to pay my fares, I would be happy to do so. If not WMUK does them by the bucketload.)

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC).

Notifications

In case anyone else, like me, keeps mistyping when using WP:ECHO, George Orwell III and Quiddity (WMF) suggested adding this to your common.js:

// Add custom Character Inserter entries, to the end of the first 2 groupings
window.charinsertCustom = { 
	"Insert": ' Mention: {\{u|+}}  {\{ping|+}}', 
	"Wiki markup": ' Mention: {\{u|+}}  {\{ping|+}}' 
};

At the bottom of the edit window, it adds "Mention: {{u|}} {{ping|}}". You place the cursor where you want to insert it, click on {{u|}} or {{ping|}}, and add the name, which is incredibly useful. Thank you, Quiddity and George! SlimVirgin 20:44, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikiproject and task force guides

Better late than never discovered Misplaced Pages Wikiproject Council guide which includes handy items like: Topic coordination; Inter-WikiProject coordination and collaboration; Article tagging; Role of the WikiProject Council (when conflict between projects); bots; creating project details. There's even a whole page on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Council/Guide/Task_forces. (There's like 130+ listed!) Just put it on the main page so we don't forget where it is. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Research article: Emotions under Discussion

Iosub, Daniela; Laniado, David; Castillo, Carlos; Morell, Mayo Fuster; Kaltenbrunner, Andreas (August 20, 2014). "Emotions under Discussion: Gender, Status and Communication in Online Collaboration". PLoS ONE. 9 (8). doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0104880.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Conclusions/Significance

Emotional expression and linguistic style in online collaboration differ substantially depending on the contributors' gender and status, and on the communication network. This should be taken into account when analyzing collaborative success, and may prove insightful to communities facing gender gap and stagnation in contributor acquisition and participation levels.

--72.223.98.118 (talk) 22:35, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on "Today's featured article"

Participants here may want to look at this example of comments on today's featured article requests. Getting some different perspectives on whether or how this sort of thing feeds in to the Gender Gap and atmosphere for female editors could be constructive. -- Djembayz (talk) 12:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Per helpful recommendation from Djembayz, I've removed the image of the male author from the blurb text. I've replaced it with a free-use-licensed image of the book cover itself. Hopefully this is now satisfactory to Djembayz. Once again I'm thankful to Djembayz and happy we were able to obtain a free-use-license for the book cover. And as an aside I personally think this particular Gender gap task force does good work on Misplaced Pages, so thank you all. :) Cheers, — Cirt (talk) 16:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Considerably less objectionable (to me), and more on-topic, but still not convinced this sort of mainpage material does much to improve our standing among prospective female editors. Any opinions from other GGTF participants? -- Djembayz (talk) 18:31, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

(As an aside: If it turns out that GGTF readers are too intimidated or displeased to post any opposing opinion on that page, we would be well served to remind ourselves where we appeal when we need someone to stick up for women's honor, safety, and dignity on this site: the ANI noticeboard, which contains exchanges like this one). -- Djembayz (talk) 19:06, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I think I had an attack of free speech! I wrote: Oppose: Just reinforces image of Misplaced Pages as a bunch of 15-25 year olds who've never gotten laid and may never get laid, and thus go in for juvenile jokes about sex, their hand, "tw*t", "c*nt", etc. Now that's the kind of freedom of speech on Misplaced Pages I'm talking about! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:57, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

@Djembayz:I must admit I'm a bit disappointed that after successfully addressing your complaint about the image of the man smiling (the author of the book), and after I went and contacted the publisher company, and got them to release the image by a free-use license, and removed the image of the man smiling, and replaced it with the book cover as you had recommended, that this did not change your views that much. Perhaps you could revisit and at the very least note that it is now "considerably less objectionable" to you? I'd appreciate that, especially after the work I did to remove that image and replace it with another one, because of your comment, Djembayz. Thank you. — Cirt (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I think a better title for the book would be "FUCK: Human devolution to Idiocracy". Having said that, I use it all the time myself, but I know it makes me stupider every time I use it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

I like that movie quite a bit, Carolmooredc, and think Idiocracy is quite an interesting commentary on our society. But as I noted, below, there have been many influential women who were (and still are) notable, famous, and quite strong proponents of freedom of speech and anti-censorship. As I noted, below, one was Judith Krug, and I took that article to Good Article quality after finding it at the category created by Lquilter, Category:Free speech activists. — Cirt (talk) 21:22, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Just offhand I would say the article needs to be moved from Fuck: Word Taboo and Protecting Our First Amendment Liberties => Fuck: Word Taboo and Protecting Our First Amendment Liberties (book). Compare Jesse Sheidlower's The F-Word (book). The current title fails both WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISION naming criteria for a title. ...and why would anyone want to feature a book from 2009 *now*? —Neotarf (talk) 02:15, 31 October 2014 (UTC).

Study of gender differences on Misplaced Pages discussion pages

Via a Wikipediocracy forum link, I noted this Spanish news article on a recent study that asserts that women are more constructive editors on Misplaced Pages discussion pages than men. Edits of 12,000 editors on the English wikipedia with at least 100 edits were reviewed. Nine percent of these editors were identified as women. The research paper is in English and can be found here.--Milowent • 13:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Pretty soon I'll update the research page with last few entries. But a dozen plus editors are trying to get me topic banned from here and even site banned (since they know I'll never totally quit). So others may have to keep adding material to:

• List of research studies on the Gender Gap on Misplaced Pages sponsored by Wikimedia Foundation and independent entities
• List of mainstream and tech media articles
• List of Wikimedia.org and en.Misplaced Pages Gender Gap action projects
• List of Related resources: projects and writings

Don't cry for me, GGTF, if my head goes to the chopping block for thinking that incivility and harassment of women editors are just as important GGTF issues as the number and quality of articles about women. Some even may want women shoved into a ghetto of only working on articles about women. By we also have a right to edit in articles in the political and economic spheres where males dominate and some (not all) want to keep it that way. And they'll use nitpicking and personal attacks and harassment to drive us off.

But being an optimist, I say, ONWARD AND UPWARD! If the worst happens, I'll have the time and energy to take my opinionated uppity woman act into the larger world. Plus one can still do GGTF stuff off wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:41, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Notable women free speech activists

I just want to note something here:

1. Thanks to Lquilter, I was able to look through Category:Free speech activists.
2. Back when the late Adrianne Wadewitz was discussing the Gender bias on Misplaced Pages in the media, I was inspired and decided to try to improve in quality an article that was both related to women and one of my topics of interest, freedom of speech.
3. So thanks to Lquilter, I looked through the articles at Category:Free speech activists for one on a woman that was deceased (and would therefore be less likely to have new information develop during the course of her life, and I could find a relatively full corpus of existing sources to improve the quality of the article).
4. I chose the article Judith Krug.
5. This was the state of that article before my quality improvement project began.
6. I successfully improved the article to Good Article quality, see this version as promoted to GA.

• Thank you for this project and I agree with the initiative of the Gender gap task force and the fact that there is indeed a Gender bias on Misplaced Pages.
• But, like Judith Krug, I also believe that women can be strong supporters of freedom of speech, as she was during her lifetime.

Perhaps we could compile here, potential quality improvement projects that we could collaborate on, that are similar to above: related to both women and freedom of speech. Maybe we could start with other women from Category:Free speech activists. — Cirt (talk) 21:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Possible quality improvement projects -- related to both women and freedom of speech:

Looking for deceased women from Category:Free speech activists:

1. Zoia Horn - note: recently deceased, dovetails with history relating to successful WP:GA quality improvement on Judith Krug, might be able to find similar research sources.
2. Ida Craddock
3. Lena Morrow Lewis
4. Kitty Marion
5. Harriet Pilpel
6. Margaret Sanger - note: already WP:GA, maybe could take to WP:FA with others helping in collaborative project.
7. Ayşe Nur Zarakolu

— Cirt (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps Djembayz or Carolmooredc would like to help collaborate on one of these Quality improvement projects to improve an article from Category:Free speech activists on a deceased woman who was a supporter of freedom of speech. — Cirt (talk) 21:48, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Of the above the one most directly related to freedom of speech is Zoia Horn. I think I'll begin some preliminary research and minor improvements to that article. If Djembayz or Carolmooredc or anyone else from WP:GGTF wishes to help out in a collaborative initiative, that'd be most appreciated. :) — Cirt (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Anonymous editor: "I wish I could participate, but it is too dangerous."

[Note: It has been suggested that I cross-post this here. This was written by an editor who contacted me by email in the context of the current arbitration case on gender. The user writes:

"The problem is silence does not solve the problem for women. Remaining silent only works until we can't deal with it, and then we leave the project. Meeting fire with fire is the only workable solution, and the culture is so toxic that this generally leads to pretty bad things for female edits and bad things but less bad things for the other side. (I get my job threatened. What does Eric Corbett get? Not the same thing.)

"I had the first paragraph ready to hit save on that but couldn't do it. Can't risk the personal fall out. I wish I could participate, but the reality is it is too dangerous. I tell other women that too."

The user has given permission for me to post this, but wishes to remain anonymous. I have reposted the first paragraph to Jimbo's talk page, and the longer version to the case workshop page. Regards, —Neotarf (talk) 17:14, 30 October 2014 (UTC)]

To Neotarf's point about "hostile work environment", the Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organization dedicated to building an encyclopedia. They work with other organizations and commercial services in distributing their product, an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. People who build the content are volunteers, and while they may leave at any time, there have been a few court rulings in the USA, whom have legal jurisdiction over the Florida incorporated Wikimedia Foundation, that explicitly demonstrate that volunteers have the same "employment" rights to be free of a hostile work environment that their paid employees have a right to. The right to be free of a hostile work environment extends beyond the person being subjected directly to the behavior. As Wikimedia has become more professionalized with students completing coursework, semi-professional editors working on community and content development as part of their employment, grants from the Wikimedia Foundation supporting work that leads to content development and community growth aimed at new content development, open tolerance of harassment of women (and other groups such as people with different sexual orientations, of different nationalities, people with disabilities, etc.) is just that with increasing potential to demonstrate real damages.

Beyond that, the tolerance for such behavior sends a clear and overriding message to women that they are not wanted and the current advice to women of ignore has proven largely ineffective. Openly encouraging such behavior as that status quo and providing zero resource to fix it other than escalating the situation through non-functional dispute resolution processes makes Misplaced Pages prime for its own version of GamerGate. At some point, the Wikimedia Foundation may very well find itself having to do what Adobe did. The only reason that has not happened to date is because many of the women who have dealt with sexually based harassment, have had their employment targeted because they are female, have had their academic work targeted because they are and dealt with gender specific crap have either lacked the media resources to put the story out there, cannot take the professional risk of exposing the systemic problem or at their hearts of hearts believe so much in the movement (where editors seek to actively destroy them because they are women) that they have not willingly thrown the Wikimedia Foundation under the bus. The last part is probably the most important reason. <names redacted> are prime examples.

The tactics being employed in general on English Misplaced Pages towards women as a form of harassment include: Sabotaging a person's contribution, Post complaint retaliation, name calling, threatening punishment, Interfering with employment, Boasting of own success and proficiency with the intention of using this success as a weapon. For all of these, the research has shown that males are much more likely to engaged in these forms of harassment. The type of harassment given to males is markedly different, and the type of harassment women are more likely to engage in compared to males is markedly different. English Misplaced Pages provides a format where male specific harassment techniques are much easier to do, and do effectively. Given the already large male participation numbers in pure percentages, ... Go back to hostile work environment.