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Revision as of 11:07, 24 November 2014 editDaveApter (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,808 edits →Conflict of interest: not← Previous edit Revision as of 13:59, 24 November 2014 edit undoLithistman (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers4,072 edits →Conflict of interest: COINext edit →
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::Given that you believe DaveApter to have a COI (I remain unconvinced), how do you suggest the issue be addressed? The article is {{diff|Landmark Worldwide|635198476|627892611|largely unchanged}} since the RFC, and perhaps even less "pro-Landmark". What do you propose? --] (]) 06:08, 24 November 2014 (UTC) ::Given that you believe DaveApter to have a COI (I remain unconvinced), how do you suggest the issue be addressed? The article is {{diff|Landmark Worldwide|635198476|627892611|largely unchanged}} since the RFC, and perhaps even less "pro-Landmark". What do you propose? --] (]) 06:08, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
:::No doubt the current Arbitration case will eventually settle the matter of whether or not I have a ]. I am certain that nothing in my past relationship with Landmark constitutes such a conflict and I think I have voluntarily disclosed enough to make that clear. I am not aware that the arbitration process requires me to respond to impertinent cross-examination from self-appointed interrogators. The COI amd NPOV tags were removed after discussion here by a number of uninvolved editors including {{U|Drmies}} and {{U|Begoon}}. What is the justification for re-inserting them? ] (]) 11:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC) :::No doubt the current Arbitration case will eventually settle the matter of whether or not I have a ]. I am certain that nothing in my past relationship with Landmark constitutes such a conflict and I think I have voluntarily disclosed enough to make that clear. I am not aware that the arbitration process requires me to respond to impertinent cross-examination from self-appointed interrogators. The COI amd NPOV tags were removed after discussion here by a number of uninvolved editors including {{U|Drmies}} and {{U|Begoon}}. What is the justification for re-inserting them? ] (]) 11:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
::::Given that you refuse to answer a very straightforward question, I think we ''have'' our answer. If anyone asked of me, "Have you ever volunteered for Landmark?" the answer would be a quick and simple "no." Not a convoluted, tortured "denial" that didn't deny anything at all about the ''actual question''. I think it's fairly clear now that you ''have'' worked for Landmark in a volunteer capacity which, given the way Landmark uses volunteers to do the jobs that regular employees normally do, constitutes a very clear COI. ''']'''<sup>'']''</sup> 13:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Revision as of 13:59, 24 November 2014

Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 23 September 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Landmark Worldwide. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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To-do list for Landmark Worldwide: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2024-10-08


Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
  • Article requests : Add some images with detailed fair-use rationale, or if possible, some free images, to the article.
  • Cleanup : Cleanup and format all citations as per Misplaced Pages:Citation templates.
  • Copyedit : Copyedit grammar, paraphrasing quotations where appropriate.
  • Expand : Expand and add to the article from the citations currently cited in the See Also and References sections.
  • Update : Add information/expand from more recent citations in secondary sources, if known/available.
  • Other : Partial list of sources with relevant material in cite format...
    • Journalism
    • Sociology
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      • Aupers, Stef (2005). "'We Are All Gods': New Age in the Netherlands 1960-2000". In Sengers, Erik (ed.). The Dutch and Their Gods: Secularization and Transformation of Religion in the Netherlands. Studies in Dutch Religious History. Vol. 3. Hilversum: Verloren. p. 193. ISBN 9065508678.
      • Barker, Eileen (2005). "New Religious Movements in Europe". In Jones, Lindsay (ed.). Encyclopedia of Religion. Detroit: Macmillan Reference. ISBN 9780028657431.
      • Beckford, James A.; Levasseur, Martine (1986). "New Religious movements in Western Europe". In Beckford, James A. (ed.). New Religious Movements and Rapid Social Change. London: Sage/UNESCO. ISBN 92-3-102-402-7.
      • Beckford, James A. (2004). "New Religious Movements and Globalization". In Lucas, Phillip Charles; Robbins, Thomas (eds.). New Religious Movements in the 21st Century. Abingdon and New York: Routledge. p. 208. ISBN 0-415-96576-4.
      • George D. Chryssides (2001). Historical Dictionary of New Religious Movements. Lanham, Maryland: Scarecrow. ISBN 0810840952.
      • Clarke, Peter B. (2006). New Religions in Global Perspective: A Study of Religious Change in the Modern World. Abingdon: Routledge. pp. 11, 102–103. ISBN 9780415257480.
      • Cresswell, Jamie; Wilson, Bryan, eds. (1999). New Religious Movements. Routledge. p. 35. ISBN 0415200504.
      • Greeley, Andrew M. (1995). Sociology and Religion: a Collection of Readings. London: HarperCollins. p. 299. ISBN 0065018818.
      • Hammer, Olav; Rothstein, Mikael, eds. (2012). The Cambridge Companion to New Religious Movements. Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press. pp. 19, 45. ISBN 9780521145657.
      • Helas, Paul (1991). "Western Europe: Self Religion". In Clarke, Peter; Sutherland, Stewart (eds.). The World's Religions: The Study of Religion, Traditional and New Religion. London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-06432-5.
      • Wallis, Roy (1991). "North America". In Clarke, Peter; Sutherland, Stewart (eds.). The World's Religions: The Study of Religion, Traditional and New Religion. London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-06432-5.
      • Jenkins, Philip (2000). Mystics and Messiahs: Cults and New Religions in American History. London: Oxford University Press. p. 180. ISBN 0195127447.
      • Kurtz, Lester R. (2007). Gods in the Global Village: The World's Religions in Sociological Perspective. Thousand Oaks, California: Pine Forge. p. 219. ISBN 9781412927154.
      • Lewis, James R. (2004). The Encyclopedic Sourcebook of New Age Religions. Prometheus Books. p. 187. ISBN 1591020409.
      • Lockwood, Renee (2011). "Religiosity Rejected: Exploring the Religio-Spiritual Dimensions of Landmark Education". International Journal for the Study of New Religions. 2 (2). Sheffield, England: Equinox: 225–254. ISSN 2041-9511.
      • Lockwood, Renee D. (June 2012). "Pilgrimages to the Self: Exploring the Topography of Western Consumer Spirituality through 'the Journey'". Literature & Aesthetics. 22 (1). Sydney, New South Wales: Sydney Society of Literature and Aesthetics: 111, 125. ISSN 1036-9368.
      • Nelson, Geoffrey K. (1987). Cults, New Religions and Religious Creativity. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul. ISBN 0-7102-0855-3.
      • Palmer, Dominic (2011). The New Heretics of France. New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 27, 160–161, 186. ISBN 9780199735211.
      • Parsons, Gerald (1993). "Expanding the religious spectrum: New Religious Movements in Modern Britain". In Parsons, Gerald (ed.). The Growth of Religious Diversity: Britain from 1945: Volume 1 Traditions. Abingdon and New York: Routledge. ISBN 0415083265.
      • Ramstedt, Martin (2007). "New Age and Business: Corporations as Cultic Milieus?". In Kemp, Daren; Lewis, James R. (eds.). Handbook of the New Age. Brill Handbooks on Contemporary Religion. Vol. 1. Leiden: BRILL. pp. 196–197. ISBN 9789004153554.
      • Roof, Wade Clark; McKinney, William, eds. (1987). American Mainline Religion: Its Changing Shape and Future. New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press. p. 245. ISBN 0813512158.
      • Rupert, Glenn A. (1992). Lewis, James R.; Melton, J. Gordon (eds.). Perspectives on the New Age. Albany, New York: SUNY Press. p. 130. ISBN 079141213X.
      • Siegler, Elijah (2004). "Marketing Lazaris". In Lewis, James R. (ed.). The Encyclopedic Sourcebook of New Age Religions. Amherst, New York: Prometheus. ISBN 1591020409.
      • Taliaferro, Charles; Harrison, Victoria S.; Goetz, Stewart, eds. (2012). The Routledge Companion to Theism. Routledge. p. 123. ISBN 9780415881647.
      • Wuthnow, Robert (1986). "Religious movements in North America". In Beckford, James A. (ed.). New Religious Movements and Rapid Social Change. London: Sage/UNESCO. ISBN 92-3-102-402-7.
      • York, Michael (1995). The Emerging Network: A Sociology of the New Age and Neo-pagan Movements. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield. pp. 55–57. ISBN 0847680010.
    • History
      • Roth, Matthew (2011). "Coming Together: The Communal Option". In Carlsson, Chris; Elliott, Lisa Ruth (eds.). Ten Years That Shook the City: San Francisco 1968-1978. San Francisco: City Lights. pp. 201–202. ISBN 9781931404129.
      • Sandbrook, Dominic (2012). Mad As Hell: The Crisis of the 1970s and the Rise of the Populist Right. New York: Anchor Books. pp. 168–169. ISBN 9781400077243.
    • Religion and philosophy
      • Collins, Gary R. (1998). The Soul Search: A Spiritual Journey to Authentic Intimacy with God. Nashville: Thomas Nelson. ISBN 0785274111.
      • Evans, Jules (2013). Philosophy for Life and Other Dangerous Situations. Novato, California: New World Library. pp. 135–142. ISBN 9781608682294.
      • Hexham, Irving (1993). The Concise Dictionary of Religion. Vancouver, B.C.: Regent College Publishing. pp. 75–76. ISBN 1573831204.
      • Hexham, Irving (2002). Pocket Dictionary of New Religious Movements. Downers Grove, Illinois: IVP Academic. p. 47. ISBN 0830814663.
      • Kyle, Richard (1993). Religious Fringe: A History of Alternative Religions in America. Downers Grove, Illinois: Intervarsity. ISBN 0830817662. Est is no ordinary California cult. Rather, as John Clark points out, it is 'a form of secular salvation.' It is 'secular' because it is not identified with any formal religion. In fact, est denies being a religion at all. Yet est does propound a worldview and does have religious overtones. Since its purpose is to alter one's epistemology and instill a monistic or pantheistic belief in impersonal divinity, est qualifies as religious in the expansive use of the term.
      • Richardson, James T. (1998). "est (THE FORUM)". In Swatos, Jr., William H. (ed.). Encyclopedia of Religion and Society. Walnut Creek, California: AltaMira. pp. 167–168. ISBN 0761989560.
      • Saliba, John A. (2003). Understanding New Religious Movements. Walnut Creek, California: Rowman Altamira. p. 88. ISBN 9780759103559.
      • Smith, Jonathan Z., ed. (1995). HarperCollins Dictionary of Religion. New York: HarperSanFrancisco. pp. 343, 365, 795. ISBN 0060675152.
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    • Business
      • Atkin, Douglas (2004). "What Is Required of a Belief System?". The Culting of Brands: Turn Your Customers Into True Believers. New York: Penguin/Portfolio. p. 101. ISBN 9781591840275.
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      • Ries, Al (2005). Focus: The Future of Your Company Depends on It. New York: HarperCollins. p. 164. ISBN 9780060799908.
      • Sosik, John J. (2006). Leading with Character: Stories of Valor and Virtue and the Principles They Teach. Greenwich, Connecticut: Information Age. pp. 16–17. ISBN 9781593115418.
      • Wildflower, Leni (2013). The Hidden History of Coaching. Maidenhead: McGraw-Hill. p. 101. ISBN 9780335245406.
    • Psychiatry and psychology
      • Barker, Eileen (1996). "New Religions and Mental Health". In Bhugra, Dinesh (ed.). Psychiatry and Religion: Context, Consensus and Controversies. London and New York: Routledge. p. 126. ISBN 0415089557. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
      • Brewer, Mark (August 1975). "We're Gonna Tear You Down and Put You Back Together". Psychology Today. 9. New York: Sussex: 35–39.
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Merge from Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous

I saw that Zambelo did the initial merge from Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous. Thank you!

I have further integrated that material into the article, combining with what was already here regarding the DMCA, and attempted to avoid undue weight while keeping the crux in place. There is probably more to do in refining the citation and language, including possibly integrating this completely with the rest of the review/criticism section. Tgeairn (talk) 11:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry, I had to revert your multiple edits. While some were constructive, others were not, and need to be discussed here before they are made. Making multiple small edits in succession without referring to the consensus over at the Voyage au Pays des Nouveaux Gourous article isn't constructive editing - for one it makes it impossible to revert any given edit: which is why I've had to revert the lot. Please consider discussing, gaining consensus for your changes, and then making them in future. Zambelo; talk 01:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't know what was done and what was reverted, but this material was far from clean. It was clearly written by someone who didn't read French very well; in addition, what valid material there was in the sources was hardly mined for gold. I removed the redlinks and unlinks from the list of participants: this is in keeping with Misplaced Pages's conventions all over the place. And now it's more cleanup: missing wikilinks, incorrect italicization and capitalization, quotes that probably fall foul of fair use guidelines, incomplete citation templates, etc. Drmies (talk) 03:03, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Well I do apologize for the atrocious formatting. If you recall, I was in a hurry to find references to save the article from deletion. The sources could probably be used further to improve and build upon the content. Zambelo; talk 03:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • No apology necessary, but I've spent thousands of edits on Misplaced Pages on such cleanup, so pardon me if I get a little irritated at it sometimes. "Cite web" instead of "cite news", that's a pet peeve, and websites cited for the source when we have complete names and wikilinks. The first casualty of an edit war is always the formatting... Drmies (talk) 03:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I was using a browser plugin that only allowed for that kind of source, and I figured it would be easy enough to change down the line if the edits stuck. I'm also slightly OCD about these things, so I probably would have gone through and cleaned up if you hadn't (and thank you) - Zambelo; talk 03:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • The quantity of material on this is completely out of proportion and violates WP:UNDUE. All the editors who suggested in the deletion debate that it be moved here suggested "a sentence or two". This is currently much longer than any other section in the article. DaveApter (talk) 17:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Stop misrepresenting the discussion there. There were, quite literally, no recommendations to merge only "a sentence or two" as you claim. It is completely unhelpful for you to make false and misleading statements regarding that discussion. LHM 18:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
  • It appears that this section is getting out of hand. I do not think that the intention of those contributing at the AfD were suggesting that the majority of the content be moved here. The section on this video is now over a third of the total byte size of the article - including having brought over the questionable sourcing and synth. Editors above have reverted and reinserted material into the article that duplicates other parts of the article (why would someone revert my edits to combine the two separate parts of the article that talk about the exact same DMCA actions in almost exactly the same language??). It does not work at all to blindly revert other editors without even reading what you are reverting to.
I recommend that someone take a thorough look through this and find a way to get it to a neutral paragraph that is well sourced. I had it close at one time (see this version), but it was blindly reverted without regard for duplication and other errors. Now we have three paragraphs to say that Landmark went for a subpoena, the EFF stepped into oppose it, and Landmark apparently withdrew it. That's a lot of coverage for a subpoena about a video that went nowhere, and it's partially covered again in the Litigation section of the article.
Regarding the !votes for merge, there were NONE: the nominator Drmies suggested that maybe something useful could be merged to Landmark Education litigation and said "What content is to be merged, though, needs rigorous secondary sourcing: I notice with some trepidation and dismay that the litigation has, at best, 3 1/2 secondary sources--the rest is all primary material and various website.", Cwobeel !voted Delete and said to merge what was useful to here (again, I don't think he meant to make a third of this article about the tv show), and Begoon !voted Delete and said to merge any worthwhile content here. None of these were Merge !votes. The consensus at that AfD was pretty clear, and Black Kite's closing statement doesn't say to move the bulk of this here - it says that the article (tv programme) should be referenced in the parent article, which seems to me consistent with a paragraph or so at most (not this wall of poorly sourced synthesis).
Obviously we need to get outside eyes on this, as the reversions and blind cut/paste editing styles are overwhelming those of us who spend the time to thoughtfully articulate ideas in a neutral and well-sourced manner consistent with the policies and guidelines of the project. Tgeairn (talk) 01:18, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Since I was pinged, I'll clarify. When I !voted "Delete...merge any worthwhile content here", I meant exactly that. It certainly was not my intention that the content from that article be inserted en masse, overwhelming this article. The suggestion of a well-worded and carefully sourced paragraph above was what I had in mind as the outcome of that, really. Looking at what is there now - to me, that's too much. Maybe around a third of that would seem balanced. The suggested version does, indeed seem fairly close to the level of merge I anticipated. Begoon  01:41, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
That's an improvement. Does it need a subheading, bearing in mind there are no other subsections at that level to distinguish it from? Begoon  01:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
That's a good point, Begoon. Probably not! And what's funny, by the way, and the Voyage keepers should like it: what was synthesis in the Voyage article and thus wholly inappropriate, that Landmark packed up and left France, is now perfectly alright since it concerns the main subject, Landmark. Yes, that subheading should go--or, really, if the subheading is kept, the statement that Landmark left France should be cut since one cannot explicitly connect it to the documentary. Drmies (talk) 01:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I removed the subhead. I think this bit, and the "leaving France" portion flow ok now, but if someone wants to tweak it, that's cool. Begoon  02:07, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
  • While I spoke out above against the wrong characterization DaveApter made about "a sentence or two" being the result of the AFD, I also have to say that I concur with those above who note that the cut-and-paste of basically the entire article was also not the result of the AFD. The close (a tough one, IMO, but fairly made by BK) was to merge any useful content--not the entire article, or nearly the entire article. I think either one or two paragraphs can adequately summarize the film, and the effects it has had in the years since. Perhaps one short graf about the content of the film, and one about the legal issues that stemmed from it would be about right, in my opinion. LHM 07:51, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
    • As I noted above, merging it in here actually provides the opportunity for a better chronology. "A sentence or two", yeah, that's a bit brief; two paragraphs is certainly reasonable. The lawsuits and all that, by the way, were cut because of sourcing problems, not because they can't be in or something like that. The moment there is reliably truly secondary sourcing, they can be mentioned (briefly, I suppose). Frankly I was surprised at how poor the sourcing/coverage was, as if time stood still and no verdicts or settlements ever came out of it. I wonder if Google Books has something to offer, and maybe I'll have a look later. Drmies (talk) 18:45, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
  • And I've reverted that (and the re-addition of the article tags). Please see the above discussion. Also note that the "court battles" (which none of the sources would call what happened a "court battle") duplicate material in the existing Litigation section of the article (and the Landmark Education litigation article, but that's not so relevant here). --Tgeairn (talk) 20:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Exactly, this is being discussed. Please wait for consensus. Duplicate content does need trimming, but does deserve at least a mention in the Voyage au Pays des Nouveaux Gourous section. Zambelo; talk 22:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
    I did some reworking here, and I think I've removed all the duplicate portions. I also reorganized the sections a bit, and removed the COI tag, since DaveApter has said he won't be editing the article for now. I also re-dated the NPOV tag, to reflect that it is Zambelo's concern, and not my own, as I do not currently agree that the article doesn't reflect a neutral POV. LHM 23:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Just for the sake of clarity I do not have any conflict of interest in respect of Landmark (although I am accused of such with tedious regularity, mostly by people who edit with a clear anti-Landmark slant), nor by any standards am I a 'frequent contributor' to the article - I have made under 20 edits to it in the past year and under 30 in the past 3 years; around 6% of the total number of edits to the page). DaveApter (talk) 11:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Equally for the sake of clarity, it was Drmies that placed the COI tag. And that you call those who challenged the puffery originally in the article "people who edit with a clear anti-Landmark slant" confirms that fact. LHM 14:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I trimmed the material to be more in line with the length of coverage given by Drmies and Begoon. In fact, it could probably be reduced to a single paragraph as per Randykitty's suggestion at the afd. The EFF stuff was confusing and repetitive, and the long quote from the volunteer at an anti-cult group seemed out of place. Nwlaw63 (talk) 05:01, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

I support removing the long quote, but not your removal of "the EFF stuff." Additionally, reducing it o "a single paragraph" would not be preferable, as it's too complex for such a summary. LHM 14:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

This still seems like an excessive amount of coverage of a minor issue. DaveApter (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I am unsurprised that you feel that adequately covering a less-than-flattering episode in Landmark's history "seems like an excessive amount of coverage of a minor issue." That's been the problem with your editing this article all along. LHM 04:47, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Landmark's community efforts

I've deleted a paragraph apparently intended to sing the praises of the organization's advocacy: at best, the newspaper reports were feelgood stories that mentioned that someone got the idea for some supposed good deed from attending a Landmark session. Such reports cannot prove the general statement that Landmark promotes this and that, and they certainly cannot support the suggestion of communityfriendliness and all that. Drmies (talk) 01:57, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

  • I'd like to say how delighted I am that at long last some genuinely uninvolved editors have stepped in to clean up this mess. The article still has way to go, but I'd say the current version (Revision as of 02:03, 30 September) is the best it's ever been so far.
  • I'd also like to give a bit of historical perspective for those coming newly to this topic. Originally the article as created was a blatant advocacy piece by anti-Landmark propagandists, as you can see from this version from 2004: ], shortly before I began editing here.
  • Also a clarification regarding the history of the “Reviews and Criticisms” section – originally it was headed something like “Criticisms and controversies”, and was completely stuffed with anti-landmark opinions. The more positive quotes that had been added over the years were not intended (by me anyway) to turn it into a pro-Landmark advocacy page, but rather to provide some balance by giving a range of the various opinions on the subject. But I'd always felt that the whole thing was unsatisfactory an I welcome the improvements made by Drmies and Begoon in this latest crop of edits.
  • Finally I request that some of the uninvolved editors take a look at the vexed question of “Religious characteristics”. Personally I don't think that this should be in the article at all. From my own attempts to wade through the welter of refs that Astynax has provided, none of them appear to have made any detailed specific study of Landmark (or even of est, which is what most of them were talking about), or even to have discussed it at any length, or delivered a considered judgement. All that they did was make some passing mention of it. Even if it does merit some mention in the article, it certainly doesn't call for a paragraph in the lead – as I argued above. Yet Astynax immediately reverted that removal without any attempt to answer my points.
  • Personally I'm stepping back now from editing the article itself for a couple of weeks at least and leave it to others, but I'll probably have more to say in the debate here. Thanks. DaveApter (talk) 09:51, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Frankly, Dave, I don't see much of a problem with the "Religious characteristics" section, or its mention in the lead. The section itself seems well balanced. Many of the sources are summarised above, in the "in summary" section , and it certainly seems significant enough, indeed necessary, to cover in the article, if we are to achieve balance. The lead summarises the article, so it needs to be there. Some readers only view the lead when visiting a page, and to remove it would do them a disservice, and contravene WP:LEDE. This certainly should not be a hit-piece, nor, equally, should it omit relevant, well sourced "criticism" or academic views on the topic. Begoon  10:16, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
When you look in detail at those refs, you will find that they do not actually claim any detailed research or observation of est, let alone Landmark. DaveApter (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Dave, thanks for your comments; I appreciate it. I'm mostly with Begoon, I think--and I think that it's maybe time to pull the POV tag. As far as I'm concerned, the COI tag can go too--but maybe it's a good idea to ask a truly uninvolved person (not just uninvolved with Landmarks or NRMs or cults or anticults, but uninvolved with these articles) to judge that. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Nah - bugger that. You can't get more uninvolved than me, except by making 0 edits - I've made 1. I looked at the tags earlier, and thought they could go now. I'm removing them. I don't think they're necessary now. Begoon  18:56, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
As the person who initially placed the POV tag, I agree with removing it as well. While still far from perfect, it is a much more balanced article now than it was when I first placed that tag. LHM 20:19, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
The article still needs work, though much of the puffery has been removed. Some things are still contribute to the impression of a whitewash (such as the bit about stock ownership, a murky business when talking about a privately held company, since ownership in these types of setups typically cannot be transferred, usually expires when employment ends, does not say anything about who controls the company, etc.). More pressing is that there is much material in reliable psychology and sociology sources that has been excluded and which should be restored or added. • Astynax 23:10, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

"Religious characteristics"

Well it's great to see some measure of agreement here, and I'm sorry to spoil the party by saying that I'm still unconvinced about the 'Religious' categorisation. I've been thinking about this all day on and off since I read Begoon's comment this morning. It certainly gave me pause for thought as s/he's clearly both fair and unbiased. I had another read of the RfC from a year ago at https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:List_of_new_religious_movements/Archive_2#Rfc_regarding_Landmark_Worldwide and a very careful look through the extracts from the sources in the section above. Other editors studied the full works in much more detail during the debate last year and may have more to say than I can. I'm not objecting to it on the grounds that it's a "criticism", but on the grounds that it is factually inaccurate. This is a personal development training company that every month serves thousands of customers who are from every religious background on the planet, as well as atheists, agnostics and humanists. This would hardly be likely if it were a religious movement of any type, in any sense of the word that a normal English speaker would understand it. Such an extraordinary claim would require really solid sources and IMHO these are nowhere near convincing:

  • Not a single one of them refers to any research or cites any primary sources, so it's dubious whether they even qualify as secondary sources at all.
  • They don't even give any criteria for selecting the organisations they have listed, or even describe any research or investigations into Landmark they have carried out themselves.
  • Several of them make sweeping generalisations or dubious factual assertions (including in two cases getting the name of the corporation wrong!).
  • In some cases they seem to be attributing beliefs and judgements to some unnamed consensus, without saying who holds these views or how they assessed them.

I'd appreciate it if you took a closer look and see whether you still find the assessment compelling. Thanks. DaveApter (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Landmark has also been studied as a New Religious Movement, or as "New Age" and has been referred to as a "cult" - and not to forget - Werner Erhard was influenced by Hinduism. Zambelo; talk 14:42, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
In his period of intensive self-education in his late 20's and early 30's, Erhard studied an enormous range of philosophies, both Eastern and Western. There is no indication in the biography that Hinduism was particularly prominent, or that it significantly "influenced" him. DaveApter (talk) 07:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I have changed the name of the reviews and criticism section to 'Public Reception', which seems more standard and inclusive than the previous name. I've also moved the religion commentary into this section. The religion material doesnt seem to merit its own section in the article. The claim that a seminar company is a religion doesn't seem much in evidence in the dozens of firsthand accounts of the course we have from reliable secondary sources (you would think the New York Times or Time Magazine or any other press account would probably mention it if a course were religious). While it does make it on some scholarly lists of NRM's, most without explanation, as I have noted before, scholarly NRM lists often use vague, broad inclusive criteria that don't even require any overtly religious elements (Chryssides, perhaps the leading scholar in the field, both puts Landmark on an NRM list while at the same time noting the lack of overtly religious elements in the programs). This makes these religion claims an interesting footnote, but again, not something worthy of its own article section. Nwlaw63 (talk) 01:25, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

  • It's sourced reliably, and pretending otherwise is counterproductive. The fact that people who have had good experiences with Landmark defend them is unsurprising, but does not make the fact that others have had different experiences, and view LW as having some religious characteristics, a moot point. Let's not open up this can of worms again. LHM 01:30, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
It's missing the point to talk about people "defending" Landmark in this context - saying that it has religious characteristics is simply false, not a "criticism" to be defended. It does the readers a disservice to have such a flagrantly misleading statement in the article, and especially when it is given such prominence. And it is damaging to the reputation of Misplaced Pages to be baldly stating something that many readers will know to be untrue. As I very clearly pointed out above, the sources simply do not justify the statements in the article. Not a single one of these refs points to any research (either their own or anyone else's) to establish the absurd conclusion that Landmark is religious - or even that it is a "movement", which it is not either. All that any of them do is give it a casual passing mention.
The statement "Landmark and many of the company's customers deny such characterizations," is particularly problematic. Firstly the use of the word "deny" violates WP:SAY, and secondly it is actually false. It simply is not the case that 'many of the customers deny...'. They simply do not discuss it because the question does not arise, and they would be somewhat baffled if it did. DaveApter (talk) 07:10, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Please respond to the actual argument made above, rather than simply reverting a change based on an assumption of bias. No one is denying that a few sources put Landmark on an NRM list - that was never in dispute. What is under consideration is how much weight that holds in giving this material its own section in the article, given the above points regarding the lack of religious characteristics mentioned in the countless firsthand accounts we have, and given that the scholarly definition of NRMs being used by most of these sources doesn't actually require overtly religious characteristics. I invite reading Chryssides' comments on Landmark to get a better sense of this. Nwlaw63 (talk) 13:58, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I did respond "to the actual argument." The first-hand accounts of participants that found their Landmark experience useful and rewarding should be given no more weight than the first-hand accounts of those whose experience was different, as well as the researchers who have noted "religious characteristics" of the program. There is significant debate on the matter, and removing the section head that identifies where this article discusses that fact simply confuses the issue, rather than clarifying anything. (Note: The section is not titled "Overt religious characteristics", so you point about NRM researchers not requiring that is moot.) LHM 15:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Where is this significant debate that you are referring to? I have never met anyone (customer or non-customer, admirer or critic of Landmark) who is debating whether it is in any sense religious. Nor have I seen any reference to such a debate in any of the numerous newspaper or magazine articles on the company. DaveApter (talk) 16:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Just because you refuse to acknowledge that there are serious people who have discussed Landmark's religious characteristics doesn't mean it hasn't happened. And no, I'm not going to make a list of them, and rehash what Astynax has outlined clearly elsewhere. LHM 16:09, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
The persistent mischaracterization of Landmark/est being discussed as a religion by only a "few" scholars is simply a false premise. It is actually strange to repeatedly cite Chryssides as support for Landmark not being religious in nature. While Chryssides himself does not regard Landmark as a full-fledged religion (though he admits that it has religious elements and has engaged in promoting religion), only 2 pages prior to the page linked, Chryssides states that Landmark is regarded as a new religion by both other academics and anti-cult authors. Cherry-picking Chryssides to support an OR position is mind-boggling. • Astynax 18:15, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
"...is regarded as a new religion" by whom specifically? And on the basis of what research? And where published? And by whom peer reviewed? Without that, this remark is just a case of Somebody says.... DaveApter (talk) 16:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Incredible! Now you are disputing the exact reliable source you cited as an example of a scholar who doesn't class Landmark as a full-fledged religion, just because he also states that there are other academic books that do class it as a new religion. • Astynax 17:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I am bewildered by some of the responses here. No one seems to be responding to the discussion of undue weight regarding it having its own section. There is no differentiation between eyewitnesses who 'liked' Landmark and those who didn't - none of the reliably sourced eyewitness press accounts (of which we have dozens), regardless of whether they 'liked' Landmark or not, seem to indicate any religious elements whatsoever. I also fail to see how discussing the specific remarks of a top scholar in the field constitutes 'original research' - I have simply noted how this scholar notes the lack of overt religious elements in Landmark's programs, saying study of them is "useful" (his word) regardless of whether they can be fully considered religions. Given this qualification, and given that the researchers who put Landmark on an NRM list generally use a definition of NRMs that doesn't actually require overt religious elements to qualify as an NRM, it's fair to question whether this material is worthy of its own section in the article. Nwlaw63 (talk) 22:33, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

  • There is a vast difference between "overt religious elements" and "religious characteristics." There can exist "religious characteristics" without having "overt religious elements." And there's just no doubt that a debate does exist regarding what some call "religious characteristics" of the Landmark system. LHM 23:07, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Splitting hairs between 'religious characteristics' and 'overt religious characteristics' seems like sophistry to me. DaveApter (talk) 17:24, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
No, DaveApter, it's called being precise with one's language. You should try it. LHM 04:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Recent news articles

Dropping them here for review. AndroidCat (talk) 23:59, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposed decision template

The purpose of adding a template to a page is to provide information to the reader. The template which was added to this article provides, in its current state, no discernible information. That may of course change when there is a decision, but considering that the decision will be about conduct of editors regarding this article, and honestly says nothing whatsoever about the article itself, I tend to think that even when there is a decision there would be no particular purpose in adding the template to the article page. I have seen several such templates added to article talk pages indicating some of the ArbCom decisions specifically relating to content issues, but I at this point have no particular reason to believe that this decision will necessarily include any such statements. I think it would make much more sense to indicate on this, the article talk page, any information regarding the decision. Also, honestly, as I think pretty much everyone who has ever been regularly involved in this article is already aware of the ArbCom case, I think it unlikely that most people who would likely be interested in it doesn't already have the pages watched. John Carter (talk) 16:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

LHM added the COI tag, apparently as a result of this discussion about DaveApter. I'd like to point out that DaveApter has not been a "major contributor" to the article (and in fact has far fewer recent edits than pretty much anyone else involved with the article), and that DaveApter has clearly stated several times that they are not promoting or editing in any way that provides a benefit or gain for themselves, their employers, their friends, or family (in other words, that there is not a WP:COI). I don't see anything here that rises to a COI, let alone tagging the article as such. Even if DaveApter has a COI, he is not a major contributor to the article and has not edited it substantially since an independent review and RFC found the article to be neutrally written. --Tgeairn (talk) 05:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

  • DaveApter has offered carefully worded "denials" that specifically do not address the primary Landmark employeees: volunteers. When asked straight out whether or not he has ever been a Landmark "volunteer", he refused to answer. I find that concerning enough to place a COI tag on the article. LHM 05:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Given that you believe DaveApter to have a COI (I remain unconvinced), how do you suggest the issue be addressed? The article is largely unchanged since the RFC, and perhaps even less "pro-Landmark". What do you propose? --Tgeairn (talk) 06:08, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
No doubt the current Arbitration case will eventually settle the matter of whether or not I have a conflict of interest. I am certain that nothing in my past relationship with Landmark constitutes such a conflict and I think I have voluntarily disclosed enough to make that clear. I am not aware that the arbitration process requires me to respond to impertinent cross-examination from self-appointed interrogators. The COI amd NPOV tags were removed after discussion here by a number of uninvolved editors including Drmies and Begoon. What is the justification for re-inserting them? DaveApter (talk) 11:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Given that you refuse to answer a very straightforward question, I think we have our answer. If anyone asked of me, "Have you ever volunteered for Landmark?" the answer would be a quick and simple "no." Not a convoluted, tortured "denial" that didn't deny anything at all about the actual question. I think it's fairly clear now that you have worked for Landmark in a volunteer capacity which, given the way Landmark uses volunteers to do the jobs that regular employees normally do, constitutes a very clear COI. LHM 13:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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